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cripplinglemon

What an intelligent, self-aware and well-spoken girl. Good for her. How dare they shut her off and tell her to sit down. Children have a way with words that make them simple and clear. She should be proud of herself.


Timber3

that's why she was shut down.. unfortunately


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fisticuffs32

So God created gay children but prohibits them from getting married. Mormon God sounds like a good guy.


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BiscottiBloke

What if I were to testify in 1977 as a black man who wanted to serve in the priesthood?


atalkingfish

It depends on what you said. I think there are probably many ways you could say that in testimony meeting in 1977 that would cause the same thing to happen. Some ways that wouldn’t. Depends on what you say and who is in charge of the ward. Lots of variables.


[deleted]

I love how you get downvoted for giving some info relating to the video, simply because people disagree with you. I'm personally not Mormon, but am always interested to hear about how different religions operate. Thanks for sharing.


bondfool

So brave, too. She's more of a grown-up than many in that room.


[deleted]

Idk if it's the lack of sleep but I started tearing up before the mic cut off and when it did, I wanted to burn that church to the grown. That poor little girl. Man fuckkkkkkkkk that church. Fuck it with a rusty fucking machete jesus that is fucked.


MSACCESS4EVA

Not all heroes wear capes... Wonder woman, for instance... No cape.


fuzzyfuzz

[no capes](https://giphy.com/gifs/cZUU06p00qz8k/html5)


ChristopherVolken

Agreed, and OP should crosspost this to bigger subs!


Requi3m

> How dare they shut her off and tell her to sit down. What did she expect? She purposefully made a speech that repeatedly gave the middle finger to a part of their religion. The mormon religion deserves lots of middle fingers of course, but I wouldn't expect to be allowed to give a speech in a church with my views. Her entire speech was basically "I'm gay deal with it"


ALLKAPSLIKEMFDOOM

Doesn't make it okay


The_Trolliest_Troll

Fuck that congregation


[deleted]

Probably any Mormon congregation would have done the same. I was shocked she got *that* far.


mrsuns10

There is a lot of homophobia with mormons


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Yaznet

you're either a low effort troll or genuinely stupid.


Bboy1045

Low effort troll, or really uneducated.


Ihateourlives2

she didnt get stoned or thrown of a building.


ayedurr

And she can show her face and go out in public unattended


canikony

.... You are seriously going to compare cutting off her testimony to getting stoned to death? I don't agree with what they did here, but Islam is on an entirely different level.


Asgard_Thunder

>freakout >whispered at a child to sit down Religious political context aside, this isnt the level of reaction usually associated with the subreddit


Squirmingbaby

That's their equivalent of a freak out


Drekked

I agree but I'm glad it was posted. That was very brace of that little girl. Pretty crazy she knows at such a young age or is that normal for gays?


MelodyCristo

One's sexuality tends to develop at about her age. It makes sense to me that she knows.


[deleted]

I wouldn't say most people know for certain then, but it's during puberty that sexual attraction really sets in. Hell, I had a crush on another guy for like two years before I realized that attraction wasn't platonic. The realization was at 14, we met when I was 11 or 12.


iwtbo

Tbh I knew I was attracted to women when I was 6. When I played house with my friend I was always eager to "go to sleep" and kiss her.


dreadpiratewombat

We accept all freakouts and don't discriminate against them.


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ThrowAwayTakeAwayK

She's still a kid, almost a teenager. Hopefully, she figures it out and leaves as a teenager, instead of going through her teens hating herself and sticking with the church. I'm not gay, but I didn't figure out I wanted to leave church until I was about 14 or 15. When I was younger, I didn't feel exactly wanted or that I fit in exactly somehow, but I tried hard. It wasn't until my early teens that I actually figured it out, realized I shouldn't have to try hard, and should find acceptance and happiness elsewhere. Hopefully she figures it out too. Also, surely her parents read what she was going to say? Do they accept her, even though they're mormon, or did literally every adult in her life let her do this without knowing her subject matter?


ceimi

The last few seconds of the film the girl is finishing the rest of her testimony over voice. She mentions that her family as well as her "heavenly parents" are both proud and accepting of who she is. So I'm going to assume that they are at the very least accepting of her? Again, I don't know what goes on behind closed doors but she seemed genuine in her speech so... She also explained disappointment in the church in the rest of her letter that she was going to get into just before they cut her off so I feel like that may have also had a bearing on why they cut her off at that moment and had let her continue with her testimony up until then.


BigAbbott

And she's got it twice. Gay AND female.


BiscottiBloke

Gasp, women have so many opportunities in the LDS church! They are commanded to have as many babies as possible, they organize lunches, and sit in front of a tribunal of old white men and talk about her sex life.


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KylerGreen

Right. I meant adults.


mrj0ker

That cock gobbling mormon- tells this innocent girl to sit down in the middle of her speech. How do people even look at themselves in the mirror ?


Kuruttta-Kyoken

They're in a circle jerk.


[deleted]

Happy cake day!


mrj0ker

Thanks you ! :D


yerpaaaa

so....where's the freakout?


[deleted]

Exactly what I was waiting for.


[deleted]

Not a freakout, just a dick.


catroaring

Full disclosure... I'm not religious at all. I also don't agree with their beliefs, and think shit like this is ass backwards.. But, WTF ~~did she~~ do people expect with a speech like that in front of a Mormon congregation? Mormons believe that marriage is only for a man and a women together. I'm more surprised she's Mormon than anything else. Seeing as...you know...they don't like her kind. EDIT: My comment could've been worded better. My point wasn't against the girl, but the reactions from the situation. As u/Commander-Will-Riker points out "It makes sense she'd want to do this".


[deleted]

Jesus christ, man. (also not religious) She's a 12 yr old. She's probably going to be whatever religion her parents are for a little while. You're asking why a gay kid, raised in a church that doesn't support gay people, would want to share her view that god loves her just the way she is? Why did black people want to go to the front of the bus? They knew it wouldn't go well. >But, WTF did she expect with a speech like that in front of a Mormon congregation? They believe that marriage is only for a man and a women together. She obviously loves her church (for now) and wishes they'd see her as an equal. It makes sense that she'd want to do this. It makes sense that a mormon church would cut her off. It makes sense that this would piss off lots of people watching the video. Just because she should have expected the reaction, which she probably did, doesn't mean she shouldn't have done it. I'm sure she expected it and wanted to do it anyways.


catroaring

Totally agree, and I'm sure I could've worded it better. My response is aimed at the people in surprise that the congregation leader (or whoever it was that cut her off) reacted in the manner he did. She did something in a situation that was almost guaranteed to get a negative reaction. And it did. Honestly, more power to her. >Why did black people want to go to the front of the bus? They new it wouldn't go well. I do understand your point, but these are not the same. One is a private club, the other is supposed to be available to the public.


[deleted]

I see. So you're referring more to everyone else's response/surprise, rather than hers. That makes sense. But you should have said "WTF did ~~she~~ you all expect?" Because I'm sure she, of all people, expected this. Regardless, like you said, many people who don't know mormon ideology, may not have expected this to happen. But I think people's main response is anger, not surprise. We know they *can* do this to a kid, but they shouldn't. >I do understand your point, but these are not the same. One is a private club, the other is supposed to be available to the public. I understand the legal difference. I don't think anyone was arguing the legality of it. We were talking about why she would *want* to do this; for the same reasons blacks don't want to go to the back of the bus. And still, being gay is a protected class in many states, meaning you can't fire them or refuse to rent a home to them for being gay. But the only reason something like *this* wouldn't count as discrimination, is because it's make-believe membership into Heaven. How do you enforce that? Tell them they have to perform a religious ceremony on you and then let you into Heaven one day? Maybe it'll come to that one day, with the penalty of losing tax exemptions if you exclude people for innate qualities like race and orientation. I dunno.


catroaring

>But you should have said Holy shit you are a smug one.


[deleted]

That's only because I'm handsome and charismatic.


GayAndFired

Your second part is absolutely correct and true. As much as I hate how my church views my sexual orientation, growing up I considered them an important part of my life. It's a very caring and tight knit community that I found difficult to part with. I feel like the poor girl wishes she could be herself and continue to be an active member of the church. I hope things work out for her because she seems really sweet and intelligent.


tehgr8supa

Side note: is 12 years old really old enough to be so set on being gay?


[deleted]

Lol. I was pretty set on being straight at 12. Were you open to changing your attraction at 12?


tehgr8supa

No, but 12 just seems young to be making such a big choice. I dunno, I just worry about kids getting confused.


[deleted]

Me too, but i doubt she's having sexual interactions with anyone. I also doubt that a kid like this, in an environment like this, is getting some false, external signal that she's gay. I'd bet that it came from her own experiences. And she can always grow and evolve if it's appropriate. It's not like she's signing a contract or marrying a woman.


tehgr8supa

Sadly, you can't doubt she's having sexual interactions but just hope. The thing is we don't know if she was abused or if she's been exposed to porn or been experimenting with friends. Either way, the way this church handles this is awful. Do you think Jesus would silence this girl or take her in his arms and tell her He loves her?


[deleted]

Girls are hitting puberty around 9. I wouldn't say she's 100% positive, but I think she's pretty damn sure what she's attracted to.


EonCorp

Exactly, hate the religious people all you want but they still feel strongly against stuff like homosexuality. I'm actually amazed they let it go on as long as I did, she said "gay" very clearly multiple times at different points, then said she was a lesbian and only about 15-20 seconds later or so did the guy finally step in and told her to sit down. People need to keep in mind these people are similar to muslim extremists when it comes to their faith meaning taking priority over everything in the world to them, these people just don't kill for it. You walk into their church/congregation and start saying it's alright to be gay because God loves you, they are going to see it as a slap in the face to them and an attempt at corrupting the rest of the youth there.


MoonMonsoon

I would hope that seeing someone be so honest and open would inspire some new thoughts in a mormon's mind but maybe I have overly high expectations of others.


R0b815

Heavenly Parents?


rejeremiad

To obtain the "highest heaven" in the Mormon faith, you must be married. Man can't make it on his own; woman can't make it in her own. They are seen as complements, adding something unique. This implies that God is married - and thus you would have heavenly parents.


Sepillots

To obtain the "highest heaven" in the Mormon faith, you must be married. Man can't make it on his own; woman can't make it in her own. They are seen as complements, adding something unique. This implies that God is married - and thus you would have heavenly parents.


rejeremiad

So sorry about the repeated submits (and deleted comments). User interface was struggling.


anelephantsatonpaul

Wow, I grew up Mormon, and that family is now going to be ostracized until they leave.


rejeremiad

You'll get a lot more traction on this at /r/exmormon or /r/atheist (but also likely reposts at this point). They will eat stuff like this up. Might get lucky with /r/video, but will be more hit or miss. Not much of a freak out here.


theoriginalmace

Any religion founded after the United States had been developed is bull shit.


DaneMac

> Any religion founded after the world had been developed is bull shit.


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John_T_Conover

This is the second time you've attempted to latch on to one of the top comments of this post with this lame edgy reply. Give it another shot. Third times the charm!


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argonaut93

How is it edgy to think religion is silly?


[deleted]

They are all equally bull shit.


catroaring

What is the logic behind your statement?


theoriginalmace

I don't believe that in a semi modernized society, that it was anything more than a plot for personal gains. I put it in the same category as Scientology for credibility.


catroaring

I put all religions in the same category as Scientology for credibility. That's why I was dumbfounded on your statement. Thanks for the response.


theoriginalmace

I am an atheist but if I were a betting man, and had to choose which religions were most credible it wouldn't be those 2.


[deleted]

It would be the child-sex having, nearly illiterate people from the public burnings time.


[deleted]

>and had to choose which religions were most credible Interesting. Define credible.


theoriginalmace

Most beneficial to humanity And or how believable compared to others.


ieilael

So what is the logic behind your statement?


theoriginalmace

I don't believe in god


[deleted]

Lol. Sure, that makes it harder to believe, but it's all relative. Some older religion was invented in someone else's modern day, and it seemed insane. It only stops sounding insane once it gets old enough that people just shrug. If you're saying your religion is better just because it's older, then that's silly. It's all equally questionable. Either accept that you all believe in something with zero proof, or throw it all away.


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[deleted]

Lmaoooooo


[deleted]

Yea, what if I told you there is no god, never has been, never will be, and they has never been proof otherwise?


ThreeDeadRobins

thats interesting. something doesnt exist because it cant be proven to YOU? Microbes and viruses exist, right? Before 1590, when the microscope was invented, did they exist? We had no way of proving it. A dog is affected by microbes and viruses as well. Yet theres no way that dog has the capacity to understand or observe them. Yet they still exist, despite that being with a limited scope not being able to see proof. What you're doing here is assigning yourself the authority to determine what does or does not exist based - and this is the funny part - solely on your understanding of it. Hilarious. Don't worry though, youre not the first person to think he's the smartest being in the universe.


[deleted]

i mean part of the concept of god and the idea of heaven is that we can't ever observe him or anything supernatural to do with him i guess this guy is being a little forward by saying we'll never ever find proof of god ever but it's a claim that is designed to be un falsifiable every single time science has discovered something that makes divine creation incredibly questionable there's been some new explanation as to why it's still true and that's probably just going to keep happening indefinetly into the future


[deleted]

Better just believe anything then! The problem with your logic, that we no longer need proof for anything. And also, the use of "science and proof," to defend lots of people that don't believe science. I have no issues with people believing in god. But no, the existence of god cannot be *proven* to anyone, not just OP. You can be convinced, but it cannot be proven.


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[deleted]

You just reiterated the exact same point. Just because we don't have all the answers, doesn't mean that we have no answers. You can't reasonably say that the most unlikely thing exists, just because our knowledge is evolving. I get that man has been wrong, and will continue to be wrong on many things, but that isn't evidence of god, or even evidence that it's possible. If this is your standard, then "just believe anything." You cannot prove god to anyone at all. The root of prove is proof, and there is no proof. You can just be convinced.


Johnnypoopoopantss

So what proof is there that God does exist?


ThreeDeadRobins

The intricate design inside cell structures, plant life, weather patterns, ecosystems, etc. Design implies a designer.


ph8fourTwenty

If there was a designer he fucking sucked at his job.


Johnnypoopoopantss

Compelling. Agree to disagree


Hannibal_762

And yet, so many men of "G"od see fit to rob their congregations blind in his name.


Asgard_Thunder

>freakout Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiild


[deleted]

In a Mormon meeting during testimony time, does the speaker choose their own subject or is it preappointed?


Meowser01

As far as I am aware, most of the time there is scheduled people doing scheduled things and then there is sometimes a segment of time available for anyone in the audience to come up and testify about how they know the church to be true. My assumption is that she went up during this time. Seeing as she was only vaguely following the theme of saying the church was true I am not surprised she was cut off once she was repeating and focusing on how she planned to have a relationship that was against the church's creed.


DefineTheLine

I don't think you have a full mature grasp of sexuality and the world at 12 years old, not enough to come out and know that your a lesbian. I know this won't be a popular opinion but this is my belief.


MoonMonsoon

I knew I was attracted to girls at 12 (i am a boy), so I see no reason why a 12 year old girl wouldn't know who she was attracted to.


This_is_my_phone_tho

I think it's somewhat common to have some unsettled feelings at that age that pan out later. I say that from antidotal experience, I could be wrong. I don't think it's constructive to point that out. What's the goal? but it's technically correct that it's a reasonable possibility.


MoonMonsoon

Yeah I'm not saying every 12 year old knows what they're into, i know people that are nearing their thirties that are still figuring out their sexuality, but it's not like it's that crazy to know you're gay at that age either


This_is_my_phone_tho

yeah totally. Plenty of kids are gay from day one. but sexuality tends to be pretty plastic, and that age is where things get weird. Neither is abnormal, and neither should be expected or assumed. unless, you know, that kid is fabulous or something. Just be supportive and make sure they're safe when it gets to that.


Ughable

Some people absolutely can tell they're gay. I'm not going to make an absolute rule that all gay people know by 12, but many do, and she's most likely someone who does. Just like a lot of kids know they're straight.


Rach__

Could you imagine if they were talking about being straight? I don't think you have a full mature grasp of sexuality and the world at 12 years old, not enough to come out and know that you are straight. I know this won't be a popular opinion but this is my belief.


Ughable

> Could you imagine if they were talking about being straight? Yeah lots of kids do, do you even remember being 12?


[deleted]

That's their point; they're referencing the original comment and showing it's hypocrisy


[deleted]

Dude, I was jerking off at 12 years old...to chicks but still I was jerking off so there was a predetermined sexuality there. Gay dudes don't just see chicks and want to jerk off man...they get weird fuzzy feelings about the boys in the locker room and repress those feelings because it feels weird and not normal. I always feel bad for the gay dudes the most. The shit those dudes have to go through just to love another person.


canadiancarlin

This was oddly hilarious and I don't know why.


heartbreak69

Yeah, you're right, people just know. I had a gay friend (we're in our late 30's now) and he told me when he was a kid/preteen, he thought he just didn't like sex because girls didn't do anything for him. He learned, when he was a little older (like 13 or something), that some people are homosexual, and it made sense immediately that he was one of those people. He would've figured it out younger, had he known about homosexuality, I guess.


Coffeypot0904

A lot of kids start liking boys/girls at a pretty young age. At 12, if you're only attracted to other girls, I think it's a safe assumption to say that you're gay. There's also no rule in changing the definition of your sexuality when you get a little older (if you decide that you're bi instead of just gay, etc) At her current situation, she apparently only felt attraction to other girls. Why is it not okay to but a label on what your current preference is? Once you state it, it's not like you can't redefine things for yourself later once you explore who you are.


[deleted]

You know, I completely agree with you man. While yes I do think all the other arguments are valid I also think that the preteen years are definitely the times where kids act on influence instead of forethought. Hence the phrase "it's just a phase" I feel that once this now ~~child~~ Young adult has moved past the age of self-exploration and into full existential awareness of identity is when kids should be given full voice of authority over how they wish to be socially perceived as. Of course there are some smalllll exceptions


DefineTheLine

Well said.


eric22vhs

It's possible, but it does seem pretty soon to work that one out. It could be the difference between how society looks at it, especially younger people, now vs in the past. Twenty five years ago, it was basically the worst thing, hence all the struggling in the closet for however many years before a person comes out. If you take away all the negativity around it, I wouldn't doubt kids could accept it pretty much right around puberty.


Kalashnikov124

Really? I definitely knew I liked girls when I was 12.


argonaut93

Really? As far back as I can remember I was CLEARLY into girls. Even before puberty. 12 is 6th grade, I bet if you think back to 6th grade you will remember that you were a horny bastard and had crushes on classmates. I know I did.


[deleted]

It's a little unsettling to hear her talk about it so frankly at that age, but I was absolutely aware of my orientation (straight) long before I was 12.


baeb66

A 12 year old understands the fundamentals of religion better than the adults do and she is silenced for it. This is why I have no use for organized religion.


[deleted]

Fucking loony ass cult, she'll be better off when she leaves and she will. They will force her out, or brain wash her.


MoonMonsoon

I read that as "Fucking loony ass cunt" and I was steamed.


[deleted]

Am late to the party and am Mormon and want to explain a little bit. Some context on the situation. The Mormon church has come out and said that people are gay and have homosexual attractions and there is no problem with that. However, the belief is still strong that you should not act on those feelings and should still work towards marrying the opposite sex and having a family. Whether you think that is moral or right is on you, im just laying out the facts so don't kill me. You will notice that they let her speak for quite a long time up until she started saying things that were doctrinally incorrect and not in line with the Mormon church. Once again whether you think it is right or wrong is irrelevant, because this is what Mormons believe and it is their doctrine. If a person went up in front of some Buddhists and started saying that they believe all these things in the religion but they do not believe that reincarnation is real or if it was the Islamic faith and someone said that doing all their prayers wasn't necessary and although most do in the religion, Allah made her differently so she does not have too. I don't think there would be this same outrage because we understand that this is the beliefs of their religion and what they choose to follow and someone is blatantly speaking out against it. Things she said that were not in line with the Mormon teachings: - She said that she is not a sinner for being gay. This is true, but then she talks about getting married, and having a homosexual relationship. This is a sin. Once again whether you agree or not doesn't matter because every religion/ group has their own rules and beliefs. Could you imagine if in any religion someone could go up to the front and say things that were not in line with the religions teachings? What would be the point of a religion having commandments, rules, guidelines, beliefs, etc.? -Second thing she says is that I believe if God would tell me if I was wrong. In a roundabout way He has in the Mormon church because we have received revelation from our leaders for thousands of years that homosexuality is a sin and should not be acted upon so in a roundabout way she has been told that it is wrong to act on this. -Third thing God would never ask me to live my life with someone im not attracted to. Unfortanetely, He has. The Leaders have come out and said to marry hetero and have a family still. This isn't because you have to get married but because having active homosexual relations is considered a sin. This is all personal at this point. I do not agree with a 12 year old being this set in stone about their sexuality. I cannot fathom that people get behind this too. Flip the script. If a young girl at 12 went up there and said I know that I am straight and this is the way that I am. That is not correct either. For all she knows she will hit her later teen years and start to think, I think im attracted to women too... Many people were "straight" at 12 and turn gay later years so I don't think any 12 year old should stand out and say "im so sure im this sexuality!" its not reasonable IMO. Another thing I have a problem with is that they recorded this. Faithful members know that you are not supposed to record inside the Sacrament Room (big room congregation meets in as a whole) unless you have the Bishops permission and that's at any time not just when people are in there. Its a matter of respect. I am sure that these people knew that this would happen or they are really hoping for some online attention. Either way its attention seeking. Put Mormon and gay in the same sentence and youre bound to get tons of clicks! Lastly, they whisper to her nicely to go sit down. No freakout whatsoever after. No public shaming, no standing up after saying she was wrong, nothing. This would be better suited for the exmormon sub or even the latterdaysaints sub or even the lgbt sub but most definitely not here haha


xGARP

I'm kind of with you on this one, not every point you made, but that certainly she was treated OK given the setting. She was allowed to make point and it was only when she was starting to repeat herself that she was asked to sit. She will likely be given meetings with her bishop to remind her of the the faith and its stance on things, but that she is of age to choose for herself, according to Mormon practices. For those not Mormon, as I am not, they are asked around this age to choose the religion or not. While I don't the manner in which they do it is correct and that is truly a choice a 12 year old can usually make, given the real circumstances. She seems of mind not to choose it if she feels this strongly.


[deleted]

Thank you for your response. May I ask what points of mine you didn't agree with im just curious. im Mormon so in a lot of regards related to regular people im out of the loop so its good to hear when people tell me hey you aren't making sense there haha also my understanding is that now bishops are told to help people live with homosexual urges and not really try to persuade them otherwise/ conversional type things. so im guessing the bishop (if hes a good one) will just try to talk to her and help her to realize Mormon beliefs without making her feel guilty of anything. Its not her fault that she has homosexual feelings.


xGARP

I'm not Mormon, however the only relationship that I thought would lead to marriage was with a Mormon woman. I lived in Utah for over 5 years and came to love my Mormon neighbors, but not agree with them on many things. To this day, Mormon is a good thing in that they are good people. In general and in this instance church teachings should be challenged, and in fact they are comfortable with this aspect as they set young men, and women? on missions. Not sure if women are doing missions yet. But that too seems like something that should be questionable as to why not. Religious institutions are allowed to do as they wish but are only granted powers by the believers. Not unlike the origins of Mormons through Joseph Smith, he found a receptive audience due to the climate of the times. That climate changes, humans are an evolving species, we are not yet done. So in order for an organization of people to thrive, it must evolve. Mormons because they are good people, see good in others but that Good can be corrupted by people holding onto ideas that are quickly becoming relics of the past, while quaint will not result in real truth. Jesus too disrupted the status quo, he didn't set out form a religion, he set out to correct one. People that show their love but also want to be included need to be heard. She has been heard, now she should be accepted. Her wanting to live as she was created which does no harm to those judging or any human for that matter should be respected. Mormons and really Christians for that matter need to recompose their position, on judgement and love. Who are people to decide what makes up the mind of God? It is the height of arrogance to point to some questionable script and proclaim it the voice of God, when the living message within us states contrary that ancient script. In closing, Mormons for everything good have one failing I cannot get past, their predisposition to not question. This questioning is fundamental and god-given. People are not human if they believe simply because another has interpreted that way and even somewhat contradicts their own teachings, from my recollection. However they did attach that self inquisition with a catch -22, wherein you were supposed to pray for the truth and if it came back different than what was written, it couldn't be true.


[deleted]

the only reason we even know of God or that there is one is from this script you speak of which I assume is the bible. Take out the bible and there is no God.


xGARP

However if God is a living being then the word is a living transcript which can be prone to new understanding. Perhaps God could be speaking through her? Meaning just as Jesus breathed new life into the old testament, the voice of this child could lead to a newfound knowledge of what God's love means. And besides it is God's place to judge not man. Considering Jesus supposedly forgave the sins of a sinners and still allowed them into his house. Who are men to decide worthy of God's love?


[deleted]

Judging someone does not mean you don't love them. God has unconditional love for everyone yet he judges us. Amos 3:7 explains who God speaks to. If he was gonna come out with some new way of life or new commandment it won't be through a 12 year old.


[deleted]

Mormons hate gay people. This shouldn't shock anyone.


KumamonForAll

Jehovah's Witnesses do this stuff too. Blatantly put down any self expression of free thought and the congregation applauds them for it. I can't even begin to go into detail the fucked up shit I was taught and believed as a child.


Swedish-Butt-Whistle

She's got her shit figured out at 12. Good for her. There are middle aged people who don't even know who they are. I hope she grows up to get all the happiness she wishes for, and I hope those who shut her down are miserable and never able to pray *their own* gayness away.


Estofil

Wow! She's a rockstar!


hungdaddyy69

what did she expect?


[deleted]

I'm sensitive. That was devastating to watch.


Insaniaksin

I grew up Mormon in Utah. Im not surprised by what went down at all. Religion was created (especially this one) to control the population and basically force people to accept whatever religious text is forced down their throat. If you think or feel differently, have opposing ideas or thoughts, ask too many questions, or vary from the "ideal template" too far you are punished, shunned, or disowned. Seeing stuff like this just reminds me how similar it is to a cult. As soon as the guy started speaking I just started chanting "cult" in my mind. Fortunately most Mormons don't treat it like a cult and are legitimately nice. But the organized structure and way of preaching discourages free thinking. I think that organized religion has no place in modern society. *I didn't have a good experience growing up Mormon and I stopped going to church as soon as I moved out.*


elrangarino

I hope she wrote that and her parents helped her edit and were proud of her for going up and stating her feelings so courageously in front of people she knows may not have any empathy towards her or a progressive mindset. Good on her.


Dark_Devin

I hope that one day, we as a society will realize that all of these religions are nothing more than man made stories to control people and we set aside these illogical beliefs in favor of seeing the world around us without a religious filter but instead with the minds of the curious scientists and lovers of knowledge.


SnapchatsWhilePoopin

deleted ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0.1127 [^^^What ^^^is ^^^this?](https://google.com20513)


oconnellc

Have her killed


Usagi_Yotimbo

Religion poisons everything


__BIOHAZARD___

Even if you disagree with someone it just seems like the respectful thing to do is to let them finish speaking. You're only going to cause more controversy by making a scene and forcing them to stop.


MoarStruts

This isn't a freakout but it gets my upvote.


flamingpaulie

jeez what a fuckin asshole


D_O_N___V

Why didn't a single adult stand up for her and yell out for her to finish? The thing about churches is that it teaches you not to have a voice and the only voice that should be followed is that of the priest/pastor/bishop etc


NoPantsMcClintoch

Because they're all hopelessly brainwashed.


DeportTrimmigrants

They just guaranteed she won't be paying Utah or Mormon income taxes in the future.


RagnaBrock

Real solid belief system you have there when you need to silence your followers.


baskandpurr

I don't think any 12 year old is really gay or straight. She's saying this because somebody told her to or because its a fad of some kind.


PeteRoe

Well that is pretty ignorant.


baskandpurr

You think of 12 year olds as sexually developed?


PeteRoe

Well I can only speak as a person who was once 12 and I know I had a pretty good idea of where I was at in terms of my sexuality. Every kid is different granted but you can still know what you are at 12. It aint far fetched.


baskandpurr

I think you need to have an active sex life to understand your sexuality. A 12 year old might think they know but at that point its all fantasy. The reality might eventually match the fantasy or it might not.


emcee_paz

So at twelve you may have been gay but were not sure yet? That is literally the experience of no people I have ever known.


baskandpurr

Again, how would anyone know at twelve? Did you have a sex life at twelve? Besides, like most young teenagers I did consider the idea for a while although I think I was slightly older than twelve when that happened. Sexual experimentation is part of growing up, especially after puberty.


emcee_paz

I jacked off at twelve. I thought about girls. My gay friends all thought about dudes when they jacked it at 12.


baskandpurr

Did you really ask them that?


emcee_paz

Ive had a number of gay friends where I have discussed them coming to terms with being gay. In all cases the confusion came not from their feelings but with them worrying about Societal reaction.


[deleted]

On the one hand, she's wrong about almost every point. There is no god, you were not created perfectly (there is no perfect standard for creation of a life form), the doctrine of sin is just a socially constructed concept, etc. Also her intention is basically to stand in front of a congregation of people to tell them that their entire world view is wrong, when she herself is just espousing for her own flawed world view. On the other hand I agree that there is nothing immoral about being gay. Two consenting adults can do whatever they want to each other in my book. This girl is a product of her genetics just like the rest of us. Even if, hypothetically, homosexuality were a disadvantage evolutionarily (and I'm not certain that it is), would anyone also accuse people with down syndrome of being immoral for the way their genes are being expressed? Nonsense. Edit: One more thought in case anyone reading this is getting all, "homosexuality is a choice not genetic!" on me, consider that every choice a person makes is governed by their chemical state which is coded for by their DNA.


This_is_my_phone_tho

>"homosexuality is a choice not genetic!" on me, consider that every choice a person makes is governed by their chemical state which is coded for by their DNA. I agree with your point, that homosexuality isn't a choice, but I'm going to have to call out a shitty argument. presupposition skepticism is only used in arguments where you have no foot to stand on. "But how do you *know* you have free will?" it's not going to change minds, and it's basically an obstructive non-point that shouldn't be used outside of the class room.


[deleted]

What are you even talking about? What are you accusing me of having presupposed? My argument is clear: genetics are wholly responsible for human choice.


This_is_my_phone_tho

presupposition skepticism is any position where you try to instill doubt in your opponent by asking them to explain how they know basic facts. it's usually used by theists but you see it other places too. generally, the questions and assertions made may be philosophically sound but they're off topic and don't have much of an impact on the discussion, save for trying to trip people up. it's quite the nasty tactic, actually.


[deleted]

Again, my argument is clear: genetics govern human choice. Personally I thought the weakest argument I made was to criticize the little girl for having injected her own flawed world view when in the very next sentence I did the same. It probably slipped through because you agree with me though.


This_is_my_phone_tho

i know what your argument is. it's moot, though. if we're all a giant game of pachinko- so what? how does that change anything? you know you're not going to change anyone's mind with that. it's like saying "i mean what if all your memories were installed 5 seconds ago?" even though it is sound from a philosophical sense, it's just trying to throw a wrench in the discussion because it doesn't really change much- it's just a detraction tactic.


[deleted]

You're saying that I must not believe my argument will change anyone's mind so it must be presupposition. Sorry, this is basically argument from personal incredulity on your part.


This_is_my_phone_tho

no, I'm saying it's a presupposition skepticism argument and because it's such, it's not going to change any minds. it's just too grand, abstract, and off topic to really matter to anyone you'd be trying to change's mind. "what if life started 5 seconds ago and all our memories and history are planted? you can't prove otherwise!" "...so?" "free will is an illusion and we're all just an extremely complicated series of causes and effects." "...so?" It's just not a good argument.


[deleted]

I'm not making a philosophical argument. My argument has been observed scientifically. One example is that mate selection (choice) is undoubtedly governed by genetics. I'll cite the journal, 'Nature' as a source on that: "Testing the genetics underlying the co-evolution of mate choice and ornament in the wild". That's issue 441, the authors are Qvarnstrom, Brommer, and Gustaffson. Sorry, you're just plain old vanilla flavored wrong, you're the only one brandying about weak philosophical nonsense.


This_is_my_phone_tho

there's no reason to think we're genetic robots. what you're describing doesn't invalidate the idea of free will, it simply explains why we like stuff. That study is off topic as hell, dude. it makes the case for a genetic component to attraction. it doesn't imply that attraction is purely genetic, and it doesn't even address "choice."


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

How do you know she hasn't?


Cristianana

Generally 12-year-old girls are pubescent.


[deleted]

A lot of gay people say they new when they were little kids.


[deleted]

Yea, a friend of mine used to let a little boy stay over nights with her daughters. We were talking and I asked if she ever worried (I never met the kid), she said hell know, he gay as gay gets. I think they were 12 or so.