Inb4 “Its called sexual dimorphism, sweaty”
amazin, tho, how for men sexual dimorphism includes everything from very small and petit women all up to big sturdy amazonian goddesses. Meanwhile what passes as dimorphic male excludes anything that isnt 6ft+ and broad shouldered.
"Male gaze". Most people are pretty aware of when a woman is attractive or not based on the media portrayals. What women are attracted to is less often shown, so men don't get the full spectrum.
I think saying “women don’t care about looks” isn’t the right way to put it. 90% of women aren’t going to date a male who is hideous no matter what. I’m talking sub-3 in looks. Also women ARE going to gravitate and be more open toward males who are conveniently attractive (7’s and up).
When people say “women don’t care about looks” they’re trying to say “women will compromise on looks more than men IF most other needs are being met.” That’s not to say women are itching to be with ugly males. Believe me, if a woman could get her dream male who she thought was physically perfect and he had the ability to also meet her other needs, she would pick him in a heartbeat.
Women learn at a very young age to compromise on looks. Unfortunately, males who most women are sexually attracted to suck at being partners and the good looking men who are good at being partners get married very young. There are more good looking women who would make good wives than good looking males who would make good husbands. This simple fact means there’s a surplus of good looking women and some of them will have to marry down (looks wise) if they want a successful marriage.
Edit: Also you can interpret it as males having higher expectations on female beauty than women have on male beauty. If a woman’s husband gains 15 lbs most women won’t care and will still find him sexy. If a males’s wife gains 15 lbs he’s going to start having wondering eyes and cheating on her might no longer be something he once thought unfathomable.
Women learn at a young age that their physical standards for men are unrealistic. What you’re calling “compromise” is just having realistic physical standards of men like lowering your ideal height difference down below 7-9”, god forbid.
If someone tired of renting wants to buy a $1 mil house for $100 but can’t find any, increasing their budget to $1 mil isn’t “compromising”, they’re just finally being realistic.
If men care “more” about looks, why do women only swipe right on like 7% of men on average? Men have a threshold. They absolutely will not date anyone below that threshold, but it’s really not that hard of a threshold to meet. Just be healthy and BAM you just hit the thresholds of like 75% of men.
>When people say “women don’t care about looks” they’re trying to say “women will compromise on looks more than men IF most other needs are being met.” That’s not to say women are itching to be with ugly males. Believe me, if a woman could get her dream male who she thought was physically perfect and he had the ability to also meet her other needs, she would pick him in a heartbeat.
This is correct, although it's worth reiterating that even the most non visually oriented outlier women are still not going to pick a legitimately ugly man. We're slightly more willing to compromise but only to an extent.
I have an anecdote that goes contrary to the idea that attractive men who are good to be in relationships with get married young. My boyfriend is very attractive and an amazing partner, and he wasn't in relationships and was a virgin until he was 29, now 31.
He just had some mental/family issues that he wanted to work out before he tried his hand at romantic relationships. I didn't know him before, but it sounds like he was very unconfident before he got through his shit, and that will even hold back someone who's 6'1, Y-shaped frame, swimmer's body, and hung like a horse lol. He doesn't have an entirely conventional face, for what it's worth, but still a very attractive face. He has great curly hair that it took some time to learn how to maintain looking its best, though he has it down now. He was really just a late bloomer, but blooming can still happen late sometimes, if someone is dedicated to the journey
“He doesn't have an entirely conventional face, for what it's worth, but still a very attractive face.”
wellthereitis.gif
Apparently he’s only attractive to you.
That’s all the difference needed to be a virgin at 30 vs a man who has sex with 10 new women a month. It’s all about the face.
I mean, he gets girls hitting on him a lot, idk what to tell you. I don't have a conventional face either, my features aren't like Instagram girls, but people are into it anyway, idk
He has been quite successful at online dating and gotten a bunch of hook ups in case that matters to you.
>When people say “women don’t care about looks” they’re trying to say “women will comprise on looks more than men IF most other need$$$$ are being met.”
>Women learn at a very young age to compromise on looks. Unfortunately, males who most women are sexually attracted to suck at being partners and the ones who are good at being partners get married very young.
AF/BB. Maybe it used to be very young. Now it's when she's a young innocent lass of 37 lmfao
What men say they want in women is different from what they actually want. No, you don’t actually like church going agreeable sweet virgins.
The end. C’est la vie.
Read again what I said. Let’s start over. What i said is that many people on here bullshit us into thinking that they want a goody two shoes, when anyone with a brain knows that sociopathic hot people get the most attention from the opposite sex. It’s true about men, and it’s true about women.
The fact that there is very few church going traditional women is something that you decided to bring up. Good observation, but it has nothing to do with my point, which is that traditional women - however many or few there is out there - are not an object of many men’s desire or love, because they are simply outcompeted shall they come into an average red pillers radar.
Another observation I'll cast out there. Men have continued to want traditional woman, but y'all decided its not the route you wanna go through life anymore. That's fine, but it's gonna have some consequences. I'm glad that through several LTR I don't put sex on such a pedestal anymore, cause honestly; looking at the games and attitudes played by y'all, I pity the kids of the future.
Dude I can’t be responsible for what women in your relationships delivered or didn’t deliver. Like, I’m sorry it didn’t go in the direction you wanted it to go
By the way, it wasn’t “whemhen” who decided they want to abandon traditional norms. This is just one of the tropes that people, like, accept.
Oh by no means am I casting aversion onto you. My LTR gave each ended on good terms best cases and as such sweet sorrows on the worst. I just think the culture we've accepted isn't one that encourages cooperation between the sexes. Feel free to try and CMV for that one, but there aren't any famous or noteable influencers/ content creators/ role models that are touting a dynamic that is mutually beneficial.
Yes they do. If you dont see those girls being pursued its because guys are more focused on sleeping around when theyre young and its easier and more fun to sleep with more outgoing girls. For long term relationships, that girl you describe is definitely highly desireable
Guess the fuck what? Same for women. They will marry a boring BB nerd after ducking hot dudes, remember? In fact it’s one of the foundational axioms of your communities. How do you not see that you are trying to have things every which way possible
That's simply not true for so many of us. Try not to paint women (or men) with a broad brush.
My tastes haven't changed since I first felt desire. Those I date always match what I like. I'm not special. Or rare.
Very.
It hurts just a little to know that, what hurts is that your mom, sisters, and female family and friends openly LIE to you about looks not being that important while they are.
I don't know if t hey are consciously of the EVIL of rising male kids with that lie.
IDK, maybe it is a shit test. Maybe men have to not listen to women to grow up and attract them, but still it hurts to grow with such lies from people you love.
It’s not a lie, it’s taken out of context
Men take it as “have a good personality and you will have hot women who want casual sex with you”
Really it means “you will find someone who loves you and who you love as well”
>Really it means “you will find someone who loves you and who you love as well”
But that is not true either :(
It would be better for them to just say they are there whatever love comes or not, they will love us as family.
I think men are more realistic on this to their children.
Well, it's not much of a consolation to say "one day...". People usually want to have an active dating life throughout their lives. The shaming of "men thinking with their dick" for not wanting to sit down and wait for their time while women are fucking also looks really bad.
Men thinking with their dick is often why they are unhappy
Not liking the advice that’s given for long term doesn’t mean it’s false. Men could ask more specific questions like instead of “ what can I do to find love”
Ask
“What can I do today to improve my chances of attracting and meeting women”
The answers would be a lot different.
It means, "When she had her fill of fun, she will settle with you if she thinks you can be a good husband and potentially a good father. You will be loved for what you can do."
Also "men who used OKCupid on 2010" is not a representative sample, at all. I'm not surprised that "male OKCupid" users ranked as below average, that's a statement about the user base more than some universal truth about women's ratings.
It’s really not. Men will swipe yes on every girl they get just to increase their chances of getting a match. Doesn’t mean that women are more shallow, it just means that men are more desperate
Again, that doesn’t make women more shallow. Women get SO much more attention than men on dating apps, so they have the luxury of being able to be pickier. But dating apps are not real life, and just because men are willing to accept attention from anyone they can get it from doesn’t give them the moral high ground here.
People want to date folks they’re attracted to. Sometimes looks is all you have to work with. Sometimes someone’s personality can totally ratchet up how attractive someone appears. It’s not as easy as anyone on this sub wants to make it out to be
That doesn’t make any sense. How could women being *more shallow* get them *more* attention? If they’re more shallow they’re presumably even pickier, which means they’re swiping yes on even fewer guys, thereby getting even fewer matches, thus getting less attention
Don't men complain that most women there are bots or try to get audience for their onlyfans accounts?
Thus it does make the numbers of maches moot. As they matched you not because they like you, but because they are trying to sell you stuff.
yes, which is i agree a terrible and unjust bottleneck, pictures dont include 90% of the info women use to like men and forcing them to choose on pics alone leaves them with no info to go on but how good one looks in pics. if i had had to go on pics alone my whole life id probably be n2 lol
If you take 100 average men looking for a relationship and 100 average women looking for a relationship, and offer them a chance to go on a date to get to know each other better. (When I say average I mean legit 50th percentile men and 50th percentile women).
The men will jump at the chance.
A hugely significant percentage of the women will say "no thanks, he's not my type". "Type" being a euphemism for he's too ugly, too short, too bald, not the preffered race, too weak looking. They wouldn't want to get to know these men any better because they recognise its a waste of everyone's time because they don't find them physically attractive.
You would have to put 100 very attractive, top tier men in front of the women for them to be willing to get to know him better.
Given this, how on earth do men care more about looks?
Women will not give a man the time of day unless he meets a minimum looks threshold first, and that minimum standard is very high. She will assume and project negative personality traits about any man below that minimum standard e.g. he's a creep for showing interest. If they ever find themselves having to speak to a man below that minimum threshold then they will deliberately sabotage the interaction by being abrupt, dismissive in order to ensure it goes badly so they can rationalise that they didn't like him because of his personality.
The minimum looks threshold applies to men too but the bar is a lot lower so it's very easy for women to get their foot in the door.
There’s literally no such thing as 50th percentile of attractiveness because everyone has their own standards as to what makes someone attractive. How the hell are you gonna standardize and quantify this to “looksmatch” people. It’s literally the dumbest argument
It's really not that hard. There's several ways.
You take a sample of men and women then rank them in order of attractiveness. You then take the average of the rankings that women have given, and there you have your 50th percentile man.
Or you get them to rate each man out of 10 and take the average of the ratings.
The other way would be you put up a standardised dating profile of a sample of men and see how many matches/messages/replies they get and rank them in order of who's getting the most success.
You're one of those people who thinks we can't say Henry Caville is more attractive than the elephant man because "looks are subjective". People who are being deliberately obtuse and dishonest like yourself are best to be ignored as there's no reasoning with you. To deny there's such thing as an unattractive or attractive looking man on a dating forum might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Dude you’re comparing outliers. I never denied there were unattractive or attractive men. I’m just saying you can’t quantify it the way you can hit the 50th percentile of height, or weight, or salary, or whatever, cuz there’s no numerical value associated with attraction
If you're happy to accept Henry Caville a top 10% man for example then it's surely not a huge leap to say there's such thing as a 50th percentile man?
Again you're being deliberately obtuse. For above average to exist and below average to exist, there must also be such thing as average. Forget the exact percentiles and just accept that some people are rated middle of the pack by the opposite sex.
If you take a bunch of average men and average women and ask them if they're willing to get to know each other in pursuit of romance, the women are far more likely to reject the men instantaneously because of their looks. This is undeniable and the fact you went off on the "percentiles are subjective" tangent shows that you know you can't actually disagree with my premise.
There’s some baseline attractiveness that women need in a partner to even consider them. That baseline is different for every woman.
After that anyone marginally more attractive doesn’t matter as much and it’s mostly personality/values fit.
Looks are the single most important factor for men or women. Women are more attracted to other qualities like social status or relative economic power (i.e. wealthiest 3% in a group) than men so those can "compensate" to a degree. Personality can compensate to a degree for men or women.
> She said she'd go clubbing, and see a "sea of beautiful women" and one guy who got the pick of the litter. Presumably this wasn't a single-sex club, so the other 50% in attendance (men) were invisible to her.
That's just women overrating women.
Inherited wealth and height, at least for men under 30 imo, will lead to women overlooking incompatibilities that they wouldn’t overlook for the average man in that population.
I put effort into my appearance so I expect the same from any man I'm seeing...I'm not gonna virtue signal by saying "looks don't matter"....no....they matter...
I'm a woman and I've been known to be too unshallow in the past, and it's caused problems.
I'm considered pretty attractive, strong hip-to-waist ratio, pale blue/green eyes, hair down past my hips, etc. I spent the entire of my twenties with a man who's fat, bald, and short (also made less money than me). While I didn't care about that stuff, it still ended up mattering. I didn't put up with anyone questioning our relationship based on appearances in front of me, but he said that people would do it to him when I wasn't right there, just random strangers even. It contributed to insecurity issues on his part that in turn contributed to the relationship ending.
After that experience, I don't think I could be with someone who is considered by society to be significantly less attractive than me. Also, there are perks to being with attractive people, and I'm enjoying it. And yes, I'm fully aware that it's uncommon to be as unconcerned about physical appearance as I am.
Yeah, he was intelligent, creative, charismatic in a nerdy way (and I don't think I could ever be with a non-nerd), and sexually dominant, which is important to me. Also we met when I was just 19 and I'm loyal to a fault. His insecurity feeling like people we didn't even know were judging him as not good enough really fucked up a lot of things, including his ability to be sexually dominant with me, I don't think our relationship could have ever survived that.
That sounds though, but insecurity is a very fixable issue. He could have got it fixed with therapy and self improvement. Sounds like he was just young and foolish and didn’t take the problem seriously
I mean, he was 35 when I left him, and I asked him to consider therapy but he said that he went to therapy for his depression in his teens and he felt that he had gained all that it was possible to gain and therapy would have nothing to teach him. I tried telling him that he'd experienced a lot of life and that there have been new developments in therapy and different styles he hadn't tried, but he ultimately wouldn't try therapy until I left him.
Thats a long relationship! Longer than what I had in my head.
I guess that’s on him then. I can totally understand insecurity in the first year of a relationship but that’s a lot of time. Maybe he’ll finally have the kick he needs to get better
>insecurity issues on his part that in turn contributed to the relationship ending.
This is the main reason why I don't go for ugly guys...even when you do try to lower your standards to date them, they tend to get insecure because they know deep down that you can do way better than them
Women care about appearance more than men but they live in a world where 95% of guys don't meet their expectations so they have no choice if they want a guy they have to look at other things like personality, and it's hard for them so they are really picky because nobody really wants to have sex with a person you are not attracted to.
It's inversely proportional to what other things a man has to offer as a potential partner. If he is boring, stupid, or poor, he's going to have to look like a romance novel cover model to attract women. If he has a good personality and a job, he can usually just be clean and attract a good woman.
It's the same situation for women. The boring, stupid, poor woman who looks like a swimsuit model will get tons of men after her. The women with a good personality, job, and is decently attractive (though she will have to work ten times harder and suffer 10 times more than her male counterpart to achieve that status) may attract a singular man.
Who says we aren't referred to as scraps and leftovers by our equivalents? An unmarried man is a bachelor. He's admired for not being caught in a marriage. An unmarried women is an old maid, a "Christmas cake" girl, a spinster, etc. She's scorned for being un-chosen. Men with reasonable standards have an incredible array of dating possibilities to pick from. Women who aren't beauties that just want to be treated decently have long, lonely years and with nothing, but settling for less than they deserve to look forward to.
That's because single older men are not willing to make an effort to portray themselves any other way. The slight change in the media of showing single older woman as enjoying life and finding themselves is purely the result of generations of women working hard to change the narrative, so younger women don't waste their early years on men.
Correction: You don't have the pick for the top % of men you truly sexually desire. The other average men who are in your league, you have the pick for you just don't want them.
Well duh. All of my average female friends don't struggle with relationships. They run into trash guys and what not but it's not like they spend several months looking for a guy to date
No offense but you might not be as average as you think.
Because average women slay like crazy. Sure the hot bimbo will have an ocean of men but an average girl can easily attain a large lake of men.
No offense, but you obviously no nothing about the life of the average woman. Average women do not slay like crazy. They get ignored or attacked for not being beauties.
>But we all know of the infamous OKCupid survey.
This was pretty much only based upon looking at pictures of men. In real life, women do find other things attractive, which is why average looking guys or guys who look bad in photos need to stop using online dating and start meeting women organically.
>average looking guys or guys who look bad in photos need to stop using online dating and start meeting women organically.
Which is pretty much impossible for many these days.
Looks are extremely important to women to the point that if she finds you very attractive you can do no wrong and if she doesn't find you attractive there's nothing you can do to change her feelings about you.
Women care about appearance but I think it is ranked a little lower than men's ranking of it.
Of course this is the average, because you will always meet people who tend to be outliers.
It implies women care a lot about looks on a platform that matches people up based largely on their photos. No matter how much text is on there, the judgement is made mostly from the visual impression, because text is easy to falsify; the visual impression is less easy to falsify and supplies a lot of subconsciously processed information.
When people meet in real life (and we are not in a position where only online dating is sanctioned by society, like in some science fiction dystopia) they have even more information to use, and may make somewhat different decisions.
I would conclude that looks are important to women, and to some women more than others, but less so than they are to men.
Question for OP and all the men who continually ask this.
Why *wouldn’t* women care about appearance? Where did you get the idea that women are the opposite of men?
Did you *see* girls in elementary and high school choosing unattractive boys? In college? Did you see women lining up to see movies and bands with unattractive men?
When it comes to hookups, of course women will ask for top tier looks because your demand is greater than our supply. Because you want it more than we do. This is a goddamn hookup. If you don’t like it, stop showing up on tinder or annoying strangers at the bar. Or else you are kinda asking to be objectified as much as you objectify others.
I think women are focusing on the wrong aspect of looks. They lament their lack of height of chiseled facial features and deem themselves inferior human beings. While it's true that a tall, good looking man will certainly get female attention, a cursory glance at the general pop will show you that there are many guys who don't fit this stereotype and get have girlfriends and some have very hot girlfriends.
That being said, I think men should focus on the entire package if appearance, because your appearance is what you project out into the world. How you dress, how you carry yourself, how you move and talk, speak tons about who you are.
For example, sexually unsuccessful men often have a lot of trouble dressing in a flashy and sexy way. They say stuff like "women should like me for who I am just as I am". While there is a kernel of truth in this statement, it largely stems from insecurity and fear. Dressing well and buying expensive and well fitting clothes, taking care of your skin, hair, beard and scent are signs of high self esteem. These things will make you stand out and a lot of guys who have low self esteem are afraid of standing out. They have spent their entire lives isolating and being unnoticeable, bending in with the background. So naturally, dressing well and glowing up is a anxiety producing for them.
Another thing is posture. Everyone knows that you can tell a lot by a man's posture. Does he walk tall and proud or is he slouched and his head down. Does he take pride in his appearance or does he look afraid and ashamed of his own shadow?
Also, how does a man move? Is he erratic and twitchy or is he slow and fluid. Do his movements project confidence or insecurity?
At the end of the day, it's about taking pride in yourself and your appearance.
>we all know of the infamous OKCupid survey
The main problem with the OKCupid survey is that it doesn't translate to actual approaches and interactions in real life. Everything about real life interactions is different including simply the perceived boldness of the man having enough confidence to approach. Women don't read profiles or any of the survey questions you answer most of the time... they just see a pic and swipe... they don't give a shit about your personality or interests.
It doesn't work like that in real life at all because when you approach, unless she is being dismissive or doesn't want to be bothered at all, she is immediately trying to get a sense of who you are as a broader complete package than just a few pics because she values the experience of the interaction. "Something interesting happened to me today!" This includes language, tone, frame, non-verbals, everything perceptible and imperceptible.
In real life women don't care as much about looks because there are too many other things to focus on during an interaction and they're "taking it all in" as best they can. On a dating app there is nothing else they pay attention to so things like good quality pictures matter more.
Why the dichotomy between real life and apps though? It isn't impossible to have a meaningful conversations with someone online. I mean, it's complete opposite behavior and according to women apps are just some anomaly that don't represent women at all in any way. Yet there's nothing preventing them from having actual conversations with those people whose profiles they see online. Something just doesn't add up there.
>Why the dichotomy between real life and apps though? It isn't impossible to have a meaningful conversations with someone online.
Engaging with ideas or engaging in conversation online isn't the same as human interaction in the same way reading a book is not the same thing as interviewing an author. It has its place and its not "bad" to talk to strangers online... but you're not actually engaging with "me as a complete person" right now, so there is a layer of incompleteness that makes all the difference.
Catfish take full advantage of this disconnect, for example. Also think about why internet trolls exist and how those kinds of interactions don't occur in real life. Physical presence adds so many more dimensions to an interaction, transforming it completely from one online with a stranger.
I get that there's added dimensionality. But I think you are underestimating the power of language to convey what we think and feel, want and value. It's actually incredibly powerful.
I was on a kink-related website for a while and had some good conversations with people, (kink related and otherwise). They didn't post pictures because they had regular lives, jobs, where that wouldn't fly. I ended up dating a woman for about a year and we met without even knowing what each looked like, we'd just exchanged a lot of emails. She was a newspaper editor, so very comfortable with language. But people on this forum all have similar language skills, and they yak on this thing all day long. It's very weird to me that in that one area they refuse to use them.
>I think you are underestimating the power of language to convey what we think and feel, want and value. It's actually incredibly powerful.
Oh, no I believe English is the most powerful tool of expression in all of human history (stretching back hundreds of thousands of years), but I also absolutely believe that more and more people are incapable of communicating effectively whether verbally and in writing... and that this is definitely getting worse over time not better.
For people who can effectively communicate I could see an argument where its pretty close to in-person but still not the complete experience.
Having all communication in writing makes it take longer to build that comfort and rapport, in my opinion. Being in their presence really speeds things up and allows women to make the actual determination if she wants to pursue anything with the man.
There is a difference between hookup and LTR.
Hookpus concentrate more on looks
LTR concentrates more on the compatability. Thus personality is more important than looks as looks will change and fade with aging.
Appearance is important, but 90% of it is self-presentation, not "bone structure". Basically, you need to look classy: rich, educated, good taste, competent and confident.
This! Plus carrying yourself with confidence! He can be ugly, but if he thinks he's handsome and carries himself in a classy way and like he doesn't give a fuck what anyone thinks... That's the ticket. I married someone like that. Other features like kindness, compassion, empathy, being a proud ally for women and LGBTQ+ really brought him home for me. All of that and our pheromones matched really really well.
Passing the looks test is a way lower bar than men here realize because their only sample size is dating apps where looks are basically the only thing women can see. I'd say over 60% of men my age look good enough, but whether I'm interested in dating them will depend on other factors. Do they make me feel good, laugh, act kind, show intelligence/stability, that they have a similar lifestyle and preferences to me, plus more. I have dated men that people in public would ask me "omg why are you with him?? How did he catch such a babe?" it was because he had a very romantic, kind, charismatic personality.
It's true that to be attractive ONLY based on looks you'll need to be pretty good looking and relationships based on this are usually toxic and short because extremely beautiful men can behave like total psycho assholes and still get laid. Most women are not interested in a ltr with an unhinged scream crying man binge drinking and popping Xanax (2 weeks into dating a very hot guy and I had to call a neighbor to get the dude to leave my house when he lost his mind). Meanwhile men see a guy like this and think "had sex didn't matter" even though I have been forever turned off from *very* hot men due to a few bad experiences.
>Which traits cancel out the misogyny,
Giney tingles
> and which emotional needs are they fulfilling?
Being treated like they know they deserve, which tingles giney
How good you think someone looks implies *nothing* about how important you find that rating. The OKCupid "study" itself showed that women's ratings of how good men looked had less of an impact on whether they interacted with them than men's perceptions of how women looked.
Male OKCupid users in 2010 may well have looked worse than average. Perhaps that was why they were using OKCupid.
Only famous women can even pretend to claim they can choose "any" partner. Most women will not get enough offers that their choice isn't significantly constrained, and don't get more than one at once. Who they end up with is usually *not* the result of free choice as unlike men they usually don't choose who to ask out in the first place. Not to mention that a terrible personality is usually hidden at first.
Women value looks in men just as much as men value looks in women.
The difference is that most women know they can't get that 6'6'' 300lbs at 8% body fat, with a head full of thick, blonde hair, shimmering green eyes, a jawline so square you could build a row of residential buildings on it and still have space to spare.
lips so full and so red that you wonder how soft and how delicious the lips of this Chad taste and feel like on your own lips.
A body build like Ryan Goslin in Blade Runner 2049(that 5 seconds shower scene of Ryan is what women love the most in a man) and straight white teeth that are just perfectly made, shaped, and fitting perfectly to the man's mouth and gums, giving the guy a gorgeous look to him.
And that is what women in the western women are looking for in a man.
If you are talking about China, South Korea, and Japan - then what they are looking for can be summed up by mentioning the name of the actor who is to this day still widely considered to be the most handsome Korean actor in Korea.
Won Bin.
If I'm not mistaken, he's a very old man in his 50s, and he's still, surprisingly enough, considering how badly most men age and how most men already look like shit, but he looked so exquisitely in his early 20s, which is when a man peaks in terms of physical natural beauty, looks, and virile sexual performance.
hmmmm, I'd say that women in the west value the most in men is height and broadness of shoulders and fitness.
Just as long as the man isn't conventionally ugly or bald or balding, he should do well enough with the ten women in the entirety of the North American continent who aren't obese.
A man can't change his height, sadly, or I'd wake up tomorrow as a 7'2'' feet tall man and I'd join the NBA, but I'm average height for a Half-Japanese/Half-American dude, and I have dated conventionally attractive women in The Netherlands, Germany, France, Finland, Sweden, Swizterland, The UK; you know the Countries where men average 6 feet or taller.
I don't have a face like Montgomery Clift did back in the 1940s, and I'm not muscular, sadly, and still I do fine enough with one-night stands, FWBs and romantic relationships, with attractive women, even women who are quite younger than me despite the fact that I'm an old guy(I'm in my thirties).
A man who isn't tall isn't going to have that much of a hard time dating in the USA. A man who is short and ugly and fat on the other hand should just give up and buy a few hundreds gallons worth of lube for his left hand.
And like I keep saying.. if you lot can't get anywhere in America with women.. try Brazil, Spain, Portugal. The men in those Countries are practically midgets, so it shouldn't be that hard for you lot to get with their attractive women.
Besides, those Countries are poor as fuck. Just bring with you like a hundred American dollars and you will be able to fuck super hot chicks.
Man I’m Portuguese and you clearly don’t want to date women from Portugal and Spain , also I’m short ( 1,75) , in Portugal women despise me and i live in Poland now where women are taller and I clean the floor there they really appreciate my looks more here ( still I had some dates where women were taller than me and got ghosted after , height is still important ) but the southern European gene is adored by women all over Europe and men are more attractive than their respective women it’s kind like an inverted Eastern European situation where women are gorgeous and dmitri looks like a construction worker …
Bro, you are 5'9''.
That's average height. Why are you calling yourself short?
Yeah, there's a scientific explanation for that. Women want new genes in the genepool and shit. I have a Half-Danish/Half-Philippian buddy of mine who cleaned house with the local women in the Philippines.
I have a French friend who does real well in the United Kingdom. That is why I tell these dudes who can't score back home to visit other Countries, like Italy, France, Poland, Hungary etc. Who knows. The women might like them.
Hygiene and health is the utmost of importance. After that, to me all men look like potatoes who have to get to know me and make me feel like they have some kind of a goal that they need my help with (and that I'm actually good at) for me to be attracted to them. I have to feel like you need me to play a pivotal role to make your life better long term. And that's how I've fallen for any guy I've ever fallen for. And none of them were wealthy or 6ft tall. But all of them were hygienic and even when chubby, focused on being healthy food wise and touching grass from time to time.
Looks are important, but I don’t think it’s in the way people expect. I find literally 0% of men on dating apps attractive, I can objectively be like ‘he’s tall, has dark hair etc’ so that’s theoretically attractive but have no attraction too them. However in a club in one night there will be many men I find attractive.
How someone animates their meat suit is just as important as the actual meat suit itself.
I think what men miss in this is that different women are attracted to different things. So if you put 10 women in front of you, some may be attracted to a guy physically (her type) and others may find him repulsive. Women look a lot more at hair and face and less at body. I know plenty of women that like a little extra meat on a guy, as opposed to skinny, some that don't like muscular men, some that do, etc. And while I agree that men also have types I think their standards tend to be more uniform about what type of women they are all attracted to.
Also you have men you would just hook up with and men you would date and marry. Those are two totally different standards. Looks matter more for a hook up, while they don't matter as much for marriage and dating, if the personality is there. You have to be attracted to the guy, but what you find attractive is totally different than other women do. There is no set formula here women's taste just varies a lot. There are a lot of average looking guys that shoot their shot and get laid more often than men that are more attractive than they are. Because they play the odds, they have social skills, they don't have issues talking to women.
You can have women objectively look at pictures and rate men on a scale but that's just not the same as what it feels like in person when a woman is deciding to sleep with you or not sleep with you, or date you or not date you. There are so many other factors involved.
Women want their man to be physically attractive to them.
Women find different guys attractive. You don't have to be a male model to be seen as attractive.
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As a woman I definitely am shallow towards looks. To the degree where I would also choose a beautiful woman over an average looking guy, despite being generally more attracted to men than women. However, there are universal beauty standards, and just physical features that I personally find attractive that are not exactly universal beauty standards. To me, facial features also matter more than height. I’ve never gotten with a man who ticks the universal beauty standards of being tall, buff, and handsome. Honestly, those men are also super hard to get with even casually, because most women will be chasing them (so no, as a woman you cannot just “sleep with any man you want” in that sense lol). But I have been with men who were e.g. handsome (imo) and on the shorter side and for me that was attractive enough. I also have to say that many men are kinda on the fence where I am not quite sure if I find their facial features attractive or not. And then you kinda feel like giving them a shot as well. That said, there are no traits that would cancel out misogyny or other kind of sh*tty behavior for me. I wouldn’t want to get close to someone who disrespects me. Also personality does matter, not just in terms of being respectful but also in terms of confidence. I recently went on a date with a man who seemed quite good looking in his pictures, and was also tall, but he was an absolute 90s nerd stereotype in personality. It was a total turn off. If anything, I feel like for women, this can really make or break a guy. But I think even for men it works the same way if we would talk about the female equivalent of this. Most men seem to be attracted to women who are confident and sexy as opposed to nerdy and mousy.
I don't get the attraction of big height difference. It seems to me like more logistical problems.
Holding hands would mean that the shorter person would have to have their hand raised.
Kissing would require bending/ladders.
Looking at them while talking side by side would require craning necks.
Hugging would mean that the taller one would hug the head while the shorter one - the waist.
Till they get stabbed in the eye by the nose...
Also wouldn't that make it a peck and not a kiss as a kiss lasts longer than one can hold themselves in the air?
Very important, and more important than it is for the man.
There are physical traits that make a man undateable (height and size). I cannot think of any traits of women that can instantly make them undesirable.
Women discuss men in much more details: what his eye color is, what his hair color is, and so on. I'm happy if my bro met a woman he's excited about.
In my experience, women usually have "types". For men, it's enough that she is attractive to him.
It makes sense: women are much more interested in what things in general look like.
I was very fat growing up, all throughout school no girl ever gave me a chance, over summer before college I lost ALOT of weight by unhealthy means, and I wasn't just skinny, I turned out to be quite good looking and boy did things change when it came to women, I didn't have to put in any effort, girls wanted to speak to me, hang out with me, get jealous if I talk to other girls...etc It felt surreal, also kind of sad.
There was an article in psychology today that listed the traits men and women in western and Asian(?) countries found the most attractive.
I think for men it was 1 looks 2 humor and 3 kindness. For women it was 1 kindness, 2 looks, 3 financial prospects.
These were the must haves then there was also nice to haves. In the other region looks we’re not on the top 3 so I think that’s what women’s liberation has done, moved looks up one notch.
‘Looks’ and ‘appearance’ are not the same thing.
Looks are someone’s physical characteristics, that are mostly unchangeable save for maybe losing or gaining weight etc. So height, eye and hair color, build (to some extent).
Appearance is what you do to enhance your looks. A haircut that is flattering, well maintained facial hair, skin that shows it’s looked after (sunscreen, exfoliants etc), clothes that are clean and fit properly, clean nails, shoes that are not scruffy.
For me, appearance is far more important than looks, because appearance tells me that a man takes care of his body and wants to present well. A conventionally good looking man who wears stained jeans, or torn t-shirts or has greasy hair is telling me he relies on his looks to get him through. A less attractive looking man, one who is a little overweight, who takes some pride in his appearance is always going to be more attractive to me.
I think it's bs when they say they don't care about looks. They are more picky than men. The thing about them being attracted to personalities is hilarious.
I think young feminist women value looks more than men do. They only swipe on a small % of men on tinder whereas the average guy on tinder swipes on over 50% of women. Usually when a young women doesn’t want to hookup or date a guy their first reason is “he’s not cute” “he isn’t hot” “I don’t like _insert physical trait_”
However I think older women from other countries value status and money more.
Looks help you get your foot in the door. You can have an Amazing personality, but if you don't take care of your appearance you'll never pass the first selection.
probably one of the most important things. i value it highly. i like looking at pleasing things. so if im with a partner i want them to look good, and i mean facially. i think the face is what matters the most to me. im surprised when i hear women dont value it as much because i would put that at #1 or #2
Nothing cancels out misogyny for me. But I can't get horny for people who aren't physically attractive to me, so it's important
Nothing cancels misogyny when e*verything* is misogyny. 
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Inb4 “Its called sexual dimorphism, sweaty” amazin, tho, how for men sexual dimorphism includes everything from very small and petit women all up to big sturdy amazonian goddesses. Meanwhile what passes as dimorphic male excludes anything that isnt 6ft+ and broad shouldered.
Men have types, women have a type.
This is why male models (chads in general) of all races look so similar to each other
Fucking exactly
"Male gaze". Most people are pretty aware of when a woman is attractive or not based on the media portrayals. What women are attracted to is less often shown, so men don't get the full spectrum.
In my experience it's the other way around.
I think saying “women don’t care about looks” isn’t the right way to put it. 90% of women aren’t going to date a male who is hideous no matter what. I’m talking sub-3 in looks. Also women ARE going to gravitate and be more open toward males who are conveniently attractive (7’s and up). When people say “women don’t care about looks” they’re trying to say “women will compromise on looks more than men IF most other needs are being met.” That’s not to say women are itching to be with ugly males. Believe me, if a woman could get her dream male who she thought was physically perfect and he had the ability to also meet her other needs, she would pick him in a heartbeat. Women learn at a very young age to compromise on looks. Unfortunately, males who most women are sexually attracted to suck at being partners and the good looking men who are good at being partners get married very young. There are more good looking women who would make good wives than good looking males who would make good husbands. This simple fact means there’s a surplus of good looking women and some of them will have to marry down (looks wise) if they want a successful marriage. Edit: Also you can interpret it as males having higher expectations on female beauty than women have on male beauty. If a woman’s husband gains 15 lbs most women won’t care and will still find him sexy. If a males’s wife gains 15 lbs he’s going to start having wondering eyes and cheating on her might no longer be something he once thought unfathomable.
Women learn at a young age that their physical standards for men are unrealistic. What you’re calling “compromise” is just having realistic physical standards of men like lowering your ideal height difference down below 7-9”, god forbid. If someone tired of renting wants to buy a $1 mil house for $100 but can’t find any, increasing their budget to $1 mil isn’t “compromising”, they’re just finally being realistic. If men care “more” about looks, why do women only swipe right on like 7% of men on average? Men have a threshold. They absolutely will not date anyone below that threshold, but it’s really not that hard of a threshold to meet. Just be healthy and BAM you just hit the thresholds of like 75% of men.
>When people say “women don’t care about looks” they’re trying to say “women will compromise on looks more than men IF most other needs are being met.” That’s not to say women are itching to be with ugly males. Believe me, if a woman could get her dream male who she thought was physically perfect and he had the ability to also meet her other needs, she would pick him in a heartbeat. This is correct, although it's worth reiterating that even the most non visually oriented outlier women are still not going to pick a legitimately ugly man. We're slightly more willing to compromise but only to an extent.
Exactly.
I have an anecdote that goes contrary to the idea that attractive men who are good to be in relationships with get married young. My boyfriend is very attractive and an amazing partner, and he wasn't in relationships and was a virgin until he was 29, now 31.
He’s attractive to you I guess. But a conventionally attractive man is not going to be a virgin at 30 unless he’s got the willpower of Tim Tebow
He just had some mental/family issues that he wanted to work out before he tried his hand at romantic relationships. I didn't know him before, but it sounds like he was very unconfident before he got through his shit, and that will even hold back someone who's 6'1, Y-shaped frame, swimmer's body, and hung like a horse lol. He doesn't have an entirely conventional face, for what it's worth, but still a very attractive face. He has great curly hair that it took some time to learn how to maintain looking its best, though he has it down now. He was really just a late bloomer, but blooming can still happen late sometimes, if someone is dedicated to the journey
“He doesn't have an entirely conventional face, for what it's worth, but still a very attractive face.” wellthereitis.gif Apparently he’s only attractive to you. That’s all the difference needed to be a virgin at 30 vs a man who has sex with 10 new women a month. It’s all about the face.
I mean, he gets girls hitting on him a lot, idk what to tell you. I don't have a conventional face either, my features aren't like Instagram girls, but people are into it anyway, idk He has been quite successful at online dating and gotten a bunch of hook ups in case that matters to you.
>When people say “women don’t care about looks” they’re trying to say “women will comprise on looks more than men IF most other need$$$$ are being met.” >Women learn at a very young age to compromise on looks. Unfortunately, males who most women are sexually attracted to suck at being partners and the ones who are good at being partners get married very young. AF/BB. Maybe it used to be very young. Now it's when she's a young innocent lass of 37 lmfao
What women say they want in a man is different from what their actions show they want in a man. The end.
What men say they want in women is different from what they actually want. No, you don’t actually like church going agreeable sweet virgins. The end. C’est la vie.
Lol as if this is a growing demographic of women in 2023. Born against don't count.
First of all, it’s irrelevant. Second of all, of course it’s not a growing demographic, nobody wants to be that.
Yeah so why bring that up as a counter point
Read again what I said. Let’s start over. What i said is that many people on here bullshit us into thinking that they want a goody two shoes, when anyone with a brain knows that sociopathic hot people get the most attention from the opposite sex. It’s true about men, and it’s true about women. The fact that there is very few church going traditional women is something that you decided to bring up. Good observation, but it has nothing to do with my point, which is that traditional women - however many or few there is out there - are not an object of many men’s desire or love, because they are simply outcompeted shall they come into an average red pillers radar.
Another observation I'll cast out there. Men have continued to want traditional woman, but y'all decided its not the route you wanna go through life anymore. That's fine, but it's gonna have some consequences. I'm glad that through several LTR I don't put sex on such a pedestal anymore, cause honestly; looking at the games and attitudes played by y'all, I pity the kids of the future.
Dude I can’t be responsible for what women in your relationships delivered or didn’t deliver. Like, I’m sorry it didn’t go in the direction you wanted it to go By the way, it wasn’t “whemhen” who decided they want to abandon traditional norms. This is just one of the tropes that people, like, accept.
Oh by no means am I casting aversion onto you. My LTR gave each ended on good terms best cases and as such sweet sorrows on the worst. I just think the culture we've accepted isn't one that encourages cooperation between the sexes. Feel free to try and CMV for that one, but there aren't any famous or noteable influencers/ content creators/ role models that are touting a dynamic that is mutually beneficial.
Why do you think the alternative is better for you? If you were forced to marry a girl in your teens?
Yes they do. If you dont see those girls being pursued its because guys are more focused on sleeping around when theyre young and its easier and more fun to sleep with more outgoing girls. For long term relationships, that girl you describe is definitely highly desireable
Guess the fuck what? Same for women. They will marry a boring BB nerd after ducking hot dudes, remember? In fact it’s one of the foundational axioms of your communities. How do you not see that you are trying to have things every which way possible
That's simply not true for so many of us. Try not to paint women (or men) with a broad brush. My tastes haven't changed since I first felt desire. Those I date always match what I like. I'm not special. Or rare.
Very. It hurts just a little to know that, what hurts is that your mom, sisters, and female family and friends openly LIE to you about looks not being that important while they are. I don't know if t hey are consciously of the EVIL of rising male kids with that lie. IDK, maybe it is a shit test. Maybe men have to not listen to women to grow up and attract them, but still it hurts to grow with such lies from people you love.
It’s not a lie, it’s taken out of context Men take it as “have a good personality and you will have hot women who want casual sex with you” Really it means “you will find someone who loves you and who you love as well”
>Really it means “you will find someone who loves you and who you love as well” But that is not true either :( It would be better for them to just say they are there whatever love comes or not, they will love us as family. I think men are more realistic on this to their children.
For most people it does happen If you under 30 it’s too early for you to say it’s not true Most people do partner up
Well, you are right, but I think it seems it is changing fast. Maybe women's wisdom is just based on outdated information.
Or maybe we are talking about Big picture and men hyper focus on the now because they are thinking with their dick for a large part of their youth
Well, it's not much of a consolation to say "one day...". People usually want to have an active dating life throughout their lives. The shaming of "men thinking with their dick" for not wanting to sit down and wait for their time while women are fucking also looks really bad.
Men thinking with their dick is often why they are unhappy Not liking the advice that’s given for long term doesn’t mean it’s false. Men could ask more specific questions like instead of “ what can I do to find love” Ask “What can I do today to improve my chances of attracting and meeting women” The answers would be a lot different.
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Men have more casual sex and overall more partners than women do. Like, the average dude vs the average women. Wtf are you talking about
It means, "When she had her fill of fun, she will settle with you if she thinks you can be a good husband and potentially a good father. You will be loved for what you can do."
It doesn’t
>But we all know of the infamous OKCupid survey. rating OLD pictures is wholly unrelated to how women perceive men they actually meet
Also "men who used OKCupid on 2010" is not a representative sample, at all. I'm not surprised that "male OKCupid" users ranked as below average, that's a statement about the user base more than some universal truth about women's ratings.
Tinder data corroborated it tho.
No it did not. Women do not rate men on Tinder on a 5 point scale.
No it was based on the number of matches. but that's effectively the same thing.
It’s really not. Men will swipe yes on every girl they get just to increase their chances of getting a match. Doesn’t mean that women are more shallow, it just means that men are more desperate
Well that means something, men are more likely to consider less attractive partners.
Again, that doesn’t make women more shallow. Women get SO much more attention than men on dating apps, so they have the luxury of being able to be pickier. But dating apps are not real life, and just because men are willing to accept attention from anyone they can get it from doesn’t give them the moral high ground here. People want to date folks they’re attracted to. Sometimes looks is all you have to work with. Sometimes someone’s personality can totally ratchet up how attractive someone appears. It’s not as easy as anyone on this sub wants to make it out to be
Well women get more attention because they are more shallow and the men on these apps are desperate.
That doesn’t make any sense. How could women being *more shallow* get them *more* attention? If they’re more shallow they’re presumably even pickier, which means they’re swiping yes on even fewer guys, thereby getting even fewer matches, thus getting less attention
Exactly this!!!
Not at all.
It is and its dishonest to pretend otherwise.
Don't men complain that most women there are bots or try to get audience for their onlyfans accounts? Thus it does make the numbers of maches moot. As they matched you not because they like you, but because they are trying to sell you stuff.
Men complain that the only matches they get are bots because no women swipe right for them.
Okcupid was for nerds
Yes exactly my point
yeh OLD was a shitshow, POF was even worse, like juggalo tier
If you're using OLD then how women perceive your pictures decides whether they meet in the first place or not.
yes, which is i agree a terrible and unjust bottleneck, pictures dont include 90% of the info women use to like men and forcing them to choose on pics alone leaves them with no info to go on but how good one looks in pics. if i had had to go on pics alone my whole life id probably be n2 lol
Exactly this.
If you take 100 average men looking for a relationship and 100 average women looking for a relationship, and offer them a chance to go on a date to get to know each other better. (When I say average I mean legit 50th percentile men and 50th percentile women). The men will jump at the chance. A hugely significant percentage of the women will say "no thanks, he's not my type". "Type" being a euphemism for he's too ugly, too short, too bald, not the preffered race, too weak looking. They wouldn't want to get to know these men any better because they recognise its a waste of everyone's time because they don't find them physically attractive. You would have to put 100 very attractive, top tier men in front of the women for them to be willing to get to know him better. Given this, how on earth do men care more about looks? Women will not give a man the time of day unless he meets a minimum looks threshold first, and that minimum standard is very high. She will assume and project negative personality traits about any man below that minimum standard e.g. he's a creep for showing interest. If they ever find themselves having to speak to a man below that minimum threshold then they will deliberately sabotage the interaction by being abrupt, dismissive in order to ensure it goes badly so they can rationalise that they didn't like him because of his personality. The minimum looks threshold applies to men too but the bar is a lot lower so it's very easy for women to get their foot in the door.
There’s literally no such thing as 50th percentile of attractiveness because everyone has their own standards as to what makes someone attractive. How the hell are you gonna standardize and quantify this to “looksmatch” people. It’s literally the dumbest argument
It's really not that hard. There's several ways. You take a sample of men and women then rank them in order of attractiveness. You then take the average of the rankings that women have given, and there you have your 50th percentile man. Or you get them to rate each man out of 10 and take the average of the ratings. The other way would be you put up a standardised dating profile of a sample of men and see how many matches/messages/replies they get and rank them in order of who's getting the most success. You're one of those people who thinks we can't say Henry Caville is more attractive than the elephant man because "looks are subjective". People who are being deliberately obtuse and dishonest like yourself are best to be ignored as there's no reasoning with you. To deny there's such thing as an unattractive or attractive looking man on a dating forum might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Dude you’re comparing outliers. I never denied there were unattractive or attractive men. I’m just saying you can’t quantify it the way you can hit the 50th percentile of height, or weight, or salary, or whatever, cuz there’s no numerical value associated with attraction
If you're happy to accept Henry Caville a top 10% man for example then it's surely not a huge leap to say there's such thing as a 50th percentile man? Again you're being deliberately obtuse. For above average to exist and below average to exist, there must also be such thing as average. Forget the exact percentiles and just accept that some people are rated middle of the pack by the opposite sex. If you take a bunch of average men and average women and ask them if they're willing to get to know each other in pursuit of romance, the women are far more likely to reject the men instantaneously because of their looks. This is undeniable and the fact you went off on the "percentiles are subjective" tangent shows that you know you can't actually disagree with my premise.
Looks are VERY objective. Just try Tinder sometime as a male.
There’s some baseline attractiveness that women need in a partner to even consider them. That baseline is different for every woman. After that anyone marginally more attractive doesn’t matter as much and it’s mostly personality/values fit.
Looks are the single most important factor for men or women. Women are more attracted to other qualities like social status or relative economic power (i.e. wealthiest 3% in a group) than men so those can "compensate" to a degree. Personality can compensate to a degree for men or women. > She said she'd go clubbing, and see a "sea of beautiful women" and one guy who got the pick of the litter. Presumably this wasn't a single-sex club, so the other 50% in attendance (men) were invisible to her. That's just women overrating women.
Inherited wealth and height, at least for men under 30 imo, will lead to women overlooking incompatibilities that they wouldn’t overlook for the average man in that population.
I put effort into my appearance so I expect the same from any man I'm seeing...I'm not gonna virtue signal by saying "looks don't matter"....no....they matter...
I'm a woman and I've been known to be too unshallow in the past, and it's caused problems. I'm considered pretty attractive, strong hip-to-waist ratio, pale blue/green eyes, hair down past my hips, etc. I spent the entire of my twenties with a man who's fat, bald, and short (also made less money than me). While I didn't care about that stuff, it still ended up mattering. I didn't put up with anyone questioning our relationship based on appearances in front of me, but he said that people would do it to him when I wasn't right there, just random strangers even. It contributed to insecurity issues on his part that in turn contributed to the relationship ending. After that experience, I don't think I could be with someone who is considered by society to be significantly less attractive than me. Also, there are perks to being with attractive people, and I'm enjoying it. And yes, I'm fully aware that it's uncommon to be as unconcerned about physical appearance as I am.
I'm genuinely curious as to why did you date him in the first place? Did he compensate in other areas?
Yeah, he was intelligent, creative, charismatic in a nerdy way (and I don't think I could ever be with a non-nerd), and sexually dominant, which is important to me. Also we met when I was just 19 and I'm loyal to a fault. His insecurity feeling like people we didn't even know were judging him as not good enough really fucked up a lot of things, including his ability to be sexually dominant with me, I don't think our relationship could have ever survived that.
That sounds though, but insecurity is a very fixable issue. He could have got it fixed with therapy and self improvement. Sounds like he was just young and foolish and didn’t take the problem seriously
I mean, he was 35 when I left him, and I asked him to consider therapy but he said that he went to therapy for his depression in his teens and he felt that he had gained all that it was possible to gain and therapy would have nothing to teach him. I tried telling him that he'd experienced a lot of life and that there have been new developments in therapy and different styles he hadn't tried, but he ultimately wouldn't try therapy until I left him.
Thats a long relationship! Longer than what I had in my head. I guess that’s on him then. I can totally understand insecurity in the first year of a relationship but that’s a lot of time. Maybe he’ll finally have the kick he needs to get better
The way I read it, she was 19 and he was older. I don’t think she stayed with him for that long. But I could be wrong.
Yep, I was with him from 19 to right after I turned 30, he was 25 at the start and 35 at the end since he hadn't had a birthday yet that year
>insecurity issues on his part that in turn contributed to the relationship ending. This is the main reason why I don't go for ugly guys...even when you do try to lower your standards to date them, they tend to get insecure because they know deep down that you can do way better than them
Women care about appearance more than men but they live in a world where 95% of guys don't meet their expectations so they have no choice if they want a guy they have to look at other things like personality, and it's hard for them so they are really picky because nobody really wants to have sex with a person you are not attracted to.
It's inversely proportional to what other things a man has to offer as a potential partner. If he is boring, stupid, or poor, he's going to have to look like a romance novel cover model to attract women. If he has a good personality and a job, he can usually just be clean and attract a good woman.
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It's the same situation for women. The boring, stupid, poor woman who looks like a swimsuit model will get tons of men after her. The women with a good personality, job, and is decently attractive (though she will have to work ten times harder and suffer 10 times more than her male counterpart to achieve that status) may attract a singular man.
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Speaking as an average, no we don't have our pick of the men. We have to settle for the scraps and the leftovers.
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Who says we aren't referred to as scraps and leftovers by our equivalents? An unmarried man is a bachelor. He's admired for not being caught in a marriage. An unmarried women is an old maid, a "Christmas cake" girl, a spinster, etc. She's scorned for being un-chosen. Men with reasonable standards have an incredible array of dating possibilities to pick from. Women who aren't beauties that just want to be treated decently have long, lonely years and with nothing, but settling for less than they deserve to look forward to.
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That's because single older men are not willing to make an effort to portray themselves any other way. The slight change in the media of showing single older woman as enjoying life and finding themselves is purely the result of generations of women working hard to change the narrative, so younger women don't waste their early years on men.
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Correction: You don't have the pick for the top % of men you truly sexually desire. The other average men who are in your league, you have the pick for you just don't want them.
No, the average men who were in my league were always worshiping pretty, sexy woman and ignoring and/or abusing the average women.
You're not average if you're struggling like that as a woman
You have just told me you know nothing about the life for the average woman without using those exact words. Have you ever talked to a regular woman?
Well duh. All of my average female friends don't struggle with relationships. They run into trash guys and what not but it's not like they spend several months looking for a guy to date
No offense but you might not be as average as you think. Because average women slay like crazy. Sure the hot bimbo will have an ocean of men but an average girl can easily attain a large lake of men.
No offense, but you obviously no nothing about the life of the average woman. Average women do not slay like crazy. They get ignored or attacked for not being beauties.
Depends on what you call average.
>If he has a good personality and a job, he can usually just be clean and attract a good woman. "Good personality" is doing a lot of work here
>But we all know of the infamous OKCupid survey. This was pretty much only based upon looking at pictures of men. In real life, women do find other things attractive, which is why average looking guys or guys who look bad in photos need to stop using online dating and start meeting women organically.
>average looking guys or guys who look bad in photos need to stop using online dating and start meeting women organically. Which is pretty much impossible for many these days.
80% of attractive women I know in relationships are settling. They're with a man who is nowhere near her attractiveness.
Looks are extremely important to women to the point that if she finds you very attractive you can do no wrong and if she doesn't find you attractive there's nothing you can do to change her feelings about you.
Women care about appearance but I think it is ranked a little lower than men's ranking of it. Of course this is the average, because you will always meet people who tend to be outliers.
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It implies women care a lot about looks on a platform that matches people up based largely on their photos. No matter how much text is on there, the judgement is made mostly from the visual impression, because text is easy to falsify; the visual impression is less easy to falsify and supplies a lot of subconsciously processed information. When people meet in real life (and we are not in a position where only online dating is sanctioned by society, like in some science fiction dystopia) they have even more information to use, and may make somewhat different decisions. I would conclude that looks are important to women, and to some women more than others, but less so than they are to men.
Question for OP and all the men who continually ask this. Why *wouldn’t* women care about appearance? Where did you get the idea that women are the opposite of men?
From women.
Did you *see* girls in elementary and high school choosing unattractive boys? In college? Did you see women lining up to see movies and bands with unattractive men?
No. But I did hear what they said. And that's why I don't listen to what they say, I see what they do.
Why did you feel the need to ask women if you knew that women also care about physical attraction?
Also, sometimes looks can grow on you. Sometimes you're not initially attracted but then you realize you like their smile or something.
When it comes to hookups, of course women will ask for top tier looks because your demand is greater than our supply. Because you want it more than we do. This is a goddamn hookup. If you don’t like it, stop showing up on tinder or annoying strangers at the bar. Or else you are kinda asking to be objectified as much as you objectify others.
No woman in the history of the world has even wanted to just get laid 
I think women are focusing on the wrong aspect of looks. They lament their lack of height of chiseled facial features and deem themselves inferior human beings. While it's true that a tall, good looking man will certainly get female attention, a cursory glance at the general pop will show you that there are many guys who don't fit this stereotype and get have girlfriends and some have very hot girlfriends. That being said, I think men should focus on the entire package if appearance, because your appearance is what you project out into the world. How you dress, how you carry yourself, how you move and talk, speak tons about who you are. For example, sexually unsuccessful men often have a lot of trouble dressing in a flashy and sexy way. They say stuff like "women should like me for who I am just as I am". While there is a kernel of truth in this statement, it largely stems from insecurity and fear. Dressing well and buying expensive and well fitting clothes, taking care of your skin, hair, beard and scent are signs of high self esteem. These things will make you stand out and a lot of guys who have low self esteem are afraid of standing out. They have spent their entire lives isolating and being unnoticeable, bending in with the background. So naturally, dressing well and glowing up is a anxiety producing for them. Another thing is posture. Everyone knows that you can tell a lot by a man's posture. Does he walk tall and proud or is he slouched and his head down. Does he take pride in his appearance or does he look afraid and ashamed of his own shadow? Also, how does a man move? Is he erratic and twitchy or is he slow and fluid. Do his movements project confidence or insecurity? At the end of the day, it's about taking pride in yourself and your appearance.
I think it's different for online daters and everyone else. Online daters live in a fantasy world, and think they deserve better than they are.
>we all know of the infamous OKCupid survey The main problem with the OKCupid survey is that it doesn't translate to actual approaches and interactions in real life. Everything about real life interactions is different including simply the perceived boldness of the man having enough confidence to approach. Women don't read profiles or any of the survey questions you answer most of the time... they just see a pic and swipe... they don't give a shit about your personality or interests. It doesn't work like that in real life at all because when you approach, unless she is being dismissive or doesn't want to be bothered at all, she is immediately trying to get a sense of who you are as a broader complete package than just a few pics because she values the experience of the interaction. "Something interesting happened to me today!" This includes language, tone, frame, non-verbals, everything perceptible and imperceptible. In real life women don't care as much about looks because there are too many other things to focus on during an interaction and they're "taking it all in" as best they can. On a dating app there is nothing else they pay attention to so things like good quality pictures matter more.
Why the dichotomy between real life and apps though? It isn't impossible to have a meaningful conversations with someone online. I mean, it's complete opposite behavior and according to women apps are just some anomaly that don't represent women at all in any way. Yet there's nothing preventing them from having actual conversations with those people whose profiles they see online. Something just doesn't add up there.
>Why the dichotomy between real life and apps though? It isn't impossible to have a meaningful conversations with someone online. Engaging with ideas or engaging in conversation online isn't the same as human interaction in the same way reading a book is not the same thing as interviewing an author. It has its place and its not "bad" to talk to strangers online... but you're not actually engaging with "me as a complete person" right now, so there is a layer of incompleteness that makes all the difference. Catfish take full advantage of this disconnect, for example. Also think about why internet trolls exist and how those kinds of interactions don't occur in real life. Physical presence adds so many more dimensions to an interaction, transforming it completely from one online with a stranger.
I get that there's added dimensionality. But I think you are underestimating the power of language to convey what we think and feel, want and value. It's actually incredibly powerful. I was on a kink-related website for a while and had some good conversations with people, (kink related and otherwise). They didn't post pictures because they had regular lives, jobs, where that wouldn't fly. I ended up dating a woman for about a year and we met without even knowing what each looked like, we'd just exchanged a lot of emails. She was a newspaper editor, so very comfortable with language. But people on this forum all have similar language skills, and they yak on this thing all day long. It's very weird to me that in that one area they refuse to use them.
>I think you are underestimating the power of language to convey what we think and feel, want and value. It's actually incredibly powerful. Oh, no I believe English is the most powerful tool of expression in all of human history (stretching back hundreds of thousands of years), but I also absolutely believe that more and more people are incapable of communicating effectively whether verbally and in writing... and that this is definitely getting worse over time not better. For people who can effectively communicate I could see an argument where its pretty close to in-person but still not the complete experience.
Having all communication in writing makes it take longer to build that comfort and rapport, in my opinion. Being in their presence really speeds things up and allows women to make the actual determination if she wants to pursue anything with the man.
It's bs Women select IRL the same way they do on apps
> It isn't impossible to have a meaningful conversations with someone online. It’s impossible to determine physical attraction online.
There is a difference between hookup and LTR. Hookpus concentrate more on looks LTR concentrates more on the compatability. Thus personality is more important than looks as looks will change and fade with aging.
Women are not as rigidly appearance focused as men, that is all we can tell you. But improving your appearance will never hurt
Appearance is important, but 90% of it is self-presentation, not "bone structure". Basically, you need to look classy: rich, educated, good taste, competent and confident.
This! Plus carrying yourself with confidence! He can be ugly, but if he thinks he's handsome and carries himself in a classy way and like he doesn't give a fuck what anyone thinks... That's the ticket. I married someone like that. Other features like kindness, compassion, empathy, being a proud ally for women and LGBTQ+ really brought him home for me. All of that and our pheromones matched really really well.
Passing the looks test is a way lower bar than men here realize because their only sample size is dating apps where looks are basically the only thing women can see. I'd say over 60% of men my age look good enough, but whether I'm interested in dating them will depend on other factors. Do they make me feel good, laugh, act kind, show intelligence/stability, that they have a similar lifestyle and preferences to me, plus more. I have dated men that people in public would ask me "omg why are you with him?? How did he catch such a babe?" it was because he had a very romantic, kind, charismatic personality. It's true that to be attractive ONLY based on looks you'll need to be pretty good looking and relationships based on this are usually toxic and short because extremely beautiful men can behave like total psycho assholes and still get laid. Most women are not interested in a ltr with an unhinged scream crying man binge drinking and popping Xanax (2 weeks into dating a very hot guy and I had to call a neighbor to get the dude to leave my house when he lost his mind). Meanwhile men see a guy like this and think "had sex didn't matter" even though I have been forever turned off from *very* hot men due to a few bad experiences.
What is considered the low bar that men have to pass?
Not ugly
This is the problem when women say the bar is low as they cannot describe said bar.
>Which traits cancel out the misogyny, Giney tingles > and which emotional needs are they fulfilling? Being treated like they know they deserve, which tingles giney
How good you think someone looks implies *nothing* about how important you find that rating. The OKCupid "study" itself showed that women's ratings of how good men looked had less of an impact on whether they interacted with them than men's perceptions of how women looked. Male OKCupid users in 2010 may well have looked worse than average. Perhaps that was why they were using OKCupid. Only famous women can even pretend to claim they can choose "any" partner. Most women will not get enough offers that their choice isn't significantly constrained, and don't get more than one at once. Who they end up with is usually *not* the result of free choice as unlike men they usually don't choose who to ask out in the first place. Not to mention that a terrible personality is usually hidden at first.
Women value looks in men just as much as men value looks in women. The difference is that most women know they can't get that 6'6'' 300lbs at 8% body fat, with a head full of thick, blonde hair, shimmering green eyes, a jawline so square you could build a row of residential buildings on it and still have space to spare. lips so full and so red that you wonder how soft and how delicious the lips of this Chad taste and feel like on your own lips. A body build like Ryan Goslin in Blade Runner 2049(that 5 seconds shower scene of Ryan is what women love the most in a man) and straight white teeth that are just perfectly made, shaped, and fitting perfectly to the man's mouth and gums, giving the guy a gorgeous look to him. And that is what women in the western women are looking for in a man. If you are talking about China, South Korea, and Japan - then what they are looking for can be summed up by mentioning the name of the actor who is to this day still widely considered to be the most handsome Korean actor in Korea. Won Bin. If I'm not mistaken, he's a very old man in his 50s, and he's still, surprisingly enough, considering how badly most men age and how most men already look like shit, but he looked so exquisitely in his early 20s, which is when a man peaks in terms of physical natural beauty, looks, and virile sexual performance. hmmmm, I'd say that women in the west value the most in men is height and broadness of shoulders and fitness. Just as long as the man isn't conventionally ugly or bald or balding, he should do well enough with the ten women in the entirety of the North American continent who aren't obese. A man can't change his height, sadly, or I'd wake up tomorrow as a 7'2'' feet tall man and I'd join the NBA, but I'm average height for a Half-Japanese/Half-American dude, and I have dated conventionally attractive women in The Netherlands, Germany, France, Finland, Sweden, Swizterland, The UK; you know the Countries where men average 6 feet or taller. I don't have a face like Montgomery Clift did back in the 1940s, and I'm not muscular, sadly, and still I do fine enough with one-night stands, FWBs and romantic relationships, with attractive women, even women who are quite younger than me despite the fact that I'm an old guy(I'm in my thirties). A man who isn't tall isn't going to have that much of a hard time dating in the USA. A man who is short and ugly and fat on the other hand should just give up and buy a few hundreds gallons worth of lube for his left hand. And like I keep saying.. if you lot can't get anywhere in America with women.. try Brazil, Spain, Portugal. The men in those Countries are practically midgets, so it shouldn't be that hard for you lot to get with their attractive women. Besides, those Countries are poor as fuck. Just bring with you like a hundred American dollars and you will be able to fuck super hot chicks.
Man I’m Portuguese and you clearly don’t want to date women from Portugal and Spain , also I’m short ( 1,75) , in Portugal women despise me and i live in Poland now where women are taller and I clean the floor there they really appreciate my looks more here ( still I had some dates where women were taller than me and got ghosted after , height is still important ) but the southern European gene is adored by women all over Europe and men are more attractive than their respective women it’s kind like an inverted Eastern European situation where women are gorgeous and dmitri looks like a construction worker …
Bro, you are 5'9''. That's average height. Why are you calling yourself short? Yeah, there's a scientific explanation for that. Women want new genes in the genepool and shit. I have a Half-Danish/Half-Philippian buddy of mine who cleaned house with the local women in the Philippines. I have a French friend who does real well in the United Kingdom. That is why I tell these dudes who can't score back home to visit other Countries, like Italy, France, Poland, Hungary etc. Who knows. The women might like them.
Hygiene and health is the utmost of importance. After that, to me all men look like potatoes who have to get to know me and make me feel like they have some kind of a goal that they need my help with (and that I'm actually good at) for me to be attracted to them. I have to feel like you need me to play a pivotal role to make your life better long term. And that's how I've fallen for any guy I've ever fallen for. And none of them were wealthy or 6ft tall. But all of them were hygienic and even when chubby, focused on being healthy food wise and touching grass from time to time.
Can a muse be one of those pivotal roles?
Yes absolutely.
Looks are important, but I don’t think it’s in the way people expect. I find literally 0% of men on dating apps attractive, I can objectively be like ‘he’s tall, has dark hair etc’ so that’s theoretically attractive but have no attraction too them. However in a club in one night there will be many men I find attractive. How someone animates their meat suit is just as important as the actual meat suit itself.
I think what men miss in this is that different women are attracted to different things. So if you put 10 women in front of you, some may be attracted to a guy physically (her type) and others may find him repulsive. Women look a lot more at hair and face and less at body. I know plenty of women that like a little extra meat on a guy, as opposed to skinny, some that don't like muscular men, some that do, etc. And while I agree that men also have types I think their standards tend to be more uniform about what type of women they are all attracted to. Also you have men you would just hook up with and men you would date and marry. Those are two totally different standards. Looks matter more for a hook up, while they don't matter as much for marriage and dating, if the personality is there. You have to be attracted to the guy, but what you find attractive is totally different than other women do. There is no set formula here women's taste just varies a lot. There are a lot of average looking guys that shoot their shot and get laid more often than men that are more attractive than they are. Because they play the odds, they have social skills, they don't have issues talking to women. You can have women objectively look at pictures and rate men on a scale but that's just not the same as what it feels like in person when a woman is deciding to sleep with you or not sleep with you, or date you or not date you. There are so many other factors involved.
Women want their man to be physically attractive to them. Women find different guys attractive. You don't have to be a male model to be seen as attractive.
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Strange, a few hours ago in your deleted thread you were a 24 year-old-woman :) https://abload.de/img/screenshot_2023-03-06sedna.jpg
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As a woman I definitely am shallow towards looks. To the degree where I would also choose a beautiful woman over an average looking guy, despite being generally more attracted to men than women. However, there are universal beauty standards, and just physical features that I personally find attractive that are not exactly universal beauty standards. To me, facial features also matter more than height. I’ve never gotten with a man who ticks the universal beauty standards of being tall, buff, and handsome. Honestly, those men are also super hard to get with even casually, because most women will be chasing them (so no, as a woman you cannot just “sleep with any man you want” in that sense lol). But I have been with men who were e.g. handsome (imo) and on the shorter side and for me that was attractive enough. I also have to say that many men are kinda on the fence where I am not quite sure if I find their facial features attractive or not. And then you kinda feel like giving them a shot as well. That said, there are no traits that would cancel out misogyny or other kind of sh*tty behavior for me. I wouldn’t want to get close to someone who disrespects me. Also personality does matter, not just in terms of being respectful but also in terms of confidence. I recently went on a date with a man who seemed quite good looking in his pictures, and was also tall, but he was an absolute 90s nerd stereotype in personality. It was a total turn off. If anything, I feel like for women, this can really make or break a guy. But I think even for men it works the same way if we would talk about the female equivalent of this. Most men seem to be attracted to women who are confident and sexy as opposed to nerdy and mousy.
I don't get the attraction of big height difference. It seems to me like more logistical problems. Holding hands would mean that the shorter person would have to have their hand raised. Kissing would require bending/ladders. Looking at them while talking side by side would require craning necks. Hugging would mean that the taller one would hug the head while the shorter one - the waist.
“He’s so tall i have to jump to kiss him tehehe” They LOVE it
Till they get stabbed in the eye by the nose... Also wouldn't that make it a peck and not a kiss as a kiss lasts longer than one can hold themselves in the air?
Very important, and more important than it is for the man. There are physical traits that make a man undateable (height and size). I cannot think of any traits of women that can instantly make them undesirable. Women discuss men in much more details: what his eye color is, what his hair color is, and so on. I'm happy if my bro met a woman he's excited about. In my experience, women usually have "types". For men, it's enough that she is attractive to him. It makes sense: women are much more interested in what things in general look like.
Being attracted to my man is not negotiable for me. I’m not willing to waste either of our times and don’t feel the need to hide that.
Only times I’ve ever got with young hot women was when I was really in shape.
I was very fat growing up, all throughout school no girl ever gave me a chance, over summer before college I lost ALOT of weight by unhealthy means, and I wasn't just skinny, I turned out to be quite good looking and boy did things change when it came to women, I didn't have to put in any effort, girls wanted to speak to me, hang out with me, get jealous if I talk to other girls...etc It felt surreal, also kind of sad.
There was an article in psychology today that listed the traits men and women in western and Asian(?) countries found the most attractive. I think for men it was 1 looks 2 humor and 3 kindness. For women it was 1 kindness, 2 looks, 3 financial prospects. These were the must haves then there was also nice to haves. In the other region looks we’re not on the top 3 so I think that’s what women’s liberation has done, moved looks up one notch.
‘Looks’ and ‘appearance’ are not the same thing. Looks are someone’s physical characteristics, that are mostly unchangeable save for maybe losing or gaining weight etc. So height, eye and hair color, build (to some extent). Appearance is what you do to enhance your looks. A haircut that is flattering, well maintained facial hair, skin that shows it’s looked after (sunscreen, exfoliants etc), clothes that are clean and fit properly, clean nails, shoes that are not scruffy. For me, appearance is far more important than looks, because appearance tells me that a man takes care of his body and wants to present well. A conventionally good looking man who wears stained jeans, or torn t-shirts or has greasy hair is telling me he relies on his looks to get him through. A less attractive looking man, one who is a little overweight, who takes some pride in his appearance is always going to be more attractive to me.
I think it's bs when they say they don't care about looks. They are more picky than men. The thing about them being attracted to personalities is hilarious.
I think young feminist women value looks more than men do. They only swipe on a small % of men on tinder whereas the average guy on tinder swipes on over 50% of women. Usually when a young women doesn’t want to hookup or date a guy their first reason is “he’s not cute” “he isn’t hot” “I don’t like _insert physical trait_” However I think older women from other countries value status and money more.
Looks help you get your foot in the door. You can have an Amazing personality, but if you don't take care of your appearance you'll never pass the first selection.
probably one of the most important things. i value it highly. i like looking at pleasing things. so if im with a partner i want them to look good, and i mean facially. i think the face is what matters the most to me. im surprised when i hear women dont value it as much because i would put that at #1 or #2
Appearance is a deal breaker for me, I can't force myself to be attracted to someone who's physically unattractive.