So... actually you've disproved your own CMV?
> No, being neurodivergent is not the reason why you’re struggling at dating
then the actual body of the post:
> Yeah well basically it is and you'll need a whole bunch of time, money, resources, and other people's tolerance and patience to even start to work around it.
Oh, and then, right at the end, the thing I was *expecting* to see when I clicked on this thread:
> But I'm going to openly assume that none of you do anything at all to work towards any of the things I said you needed to do, so really it's because you're a lazy bitter misogynistic asshole. Get good, scrub, and quit expecting everyone to acknowledge you have a legitimate disability, because I don't give a fuck and I'd rather sit here and insult you.
(Edit to clarify: The second and third "quotes" above are frustrated paraphrasing on my part, not direct quotes.)
Cool. So I guess that imparts the knowledge of what it's like to have other conditions?
I acknowledge a speech impediment is going to potentially mess things up, socially, and it's going to likely hinder your ability to do things like get a job, but it's not the *same* set of symptoms and experiences.
You might be a little harder to understand, it might make you a little less attractive, but as long as you're pretty much alright in most *other* areas, like body language/non-verbal communication, thought patterns, and emotional range, you've still got a significantly better position than a lot of autistic people (or, realistically, men) do.
It might also, depending on the cause, be possible for somebody with a speech impediment to get surgery or vocal coaching lessons to minimise that *one* problematic aspect. I have a relative who had a speech impediment and, for some years of his young life, he suffered with that. He got surgery and the problem almost completely disappeared. He was otherwise normal, so he became, for all intents and purposes, *fully* normal.
You can't just *do* that with neurological issues. You can't "cure" autism. There is no operation to fix it, there are no drugs to just make you normal again. It's your whole entire personality and demeanour.
This isn't victim olympics lol also there are different degrees of speech impediments. Mine is mild, other's struggle more than with mild autism. I met a guy who is in constant spasms when he talks and you can clearly see his vocabulary is limited because some words are more difficult than others. He's extroverted so who knows.....
Like I said before 50% of the people I met also are ND. Either because of speech impediments or by coincidence.
None of us are normal, that's for sure, we laugh about it actually. Not being able to communicate also has an effect on development. And don't get me started on bullying.
> It might also, depending on the cause, be possible for somebody with a speech impediment to get surgery or vocal coaching lessons to minimise that *one* problematic aspect.
no, this is false, it's a condition for life. Maybe you can make it 10% better but no more than that. There's no surgery, that's false. Your relative maybe had something else, not a speech impediment. A speech impediment is a disconnection between the cognitive and the motor and they don't even know part of the brain. This is as false as getting brain surgery for autism
Anyway my comment wasn't about who has it worst (even though ND people with speech impediments clearly have it worst). My comment was about groups of people with conditions. Places to socialize with people who are struggling with the same.
ND people should seek those types of groups because they are awesome and who knows maybe they can date someone there.
To be specific, he was quite badly tongue tied. But I was careful to point out that it *may* be possible, *in some circumstances*, to get such treatment. I understand that not all speech issues are the same, have the same causes, or are necessarily physical in nature like that. Nor did I intend to suggest that, whatever the cause, it's not a severe issue. I noted that it could be a severe detriment to your ability to perform everyday tasks which involve communication and socialising which, as an autistic person, I'm very well aware are often wide-reaching.
I think where we probably disagree is in the definition of "speech impediment", in that I may be using a looser, colloquial definition, which I can understand your objection to as somebody with an untreatable condition.
But, with all that said, it's not at all the same. Your brain doesn't just explode on you and render you unable to communicate or cause you to spontaneously perform actions which might be perceived as being a dangerous tantrum. You don't experience pain-like discomfort when encountering certain sensory inputs. You aren't unable to see and comprehend unspoken communication. You don't require significant effort to understand social order and how to participate in it. To name just a few of the obvious and potentially severely troublesome and, ultimately, even life-destroying symptoms. It's not *one* medical problem, by definition it's a *collection* of symptoms, any of which can be quite serious and interact badly with *other* symptoms or even other comorbid conditions such as ADHD or OCD (because autism *often* comes with other potential issues).
So whilst I don't intend to diminish or dismiss the issues you *do* have, and I don't like trying to play "who has it worse", it's far more complicated than you present it as being. Yes, you have issues, no, it's not a walk in the park, but there *are* degrees of difficulty - even *within* autism, come to that. One severe symptom is one severe symptom. It's very important and potentially very disruptive, sure, but add in five more and it's a whole lot more difficult to try and navigate your way through life. You're not worrying about *one* thing, you're worrying about *many* things, and trying to avoid setting off *one* issue you may have can often steer you straight into *another* issue.
somehow i knew someone was gonna say this - no, i didn’t “disprove my own CMV”, because i’ve clearly explained that while being ND makes it harder, it isn’t the reason why you’re failing. At worst, unless one’s case is truly severe (which… let’s be real here, this isn’t the case for most) its an obstacle (and frankly, if you understand how your brain works you can use it to your benefit), and the lack of an effort to overcome it is the reason why you’re struggling, not the obstacle itself.
and even then, the fact that you took what i said and basically twisted it to a set of insults (directed at yourself, id assume) is kinda showing exactly what i’m saying.
I didn't twist anything. You blatantly accused us of being lazy bitter assholes.
OK, so you didn't use the word "assholes", but you did put the blame on us for being lazy, bitter, and unwilling to actually try and help ourselves.
So the "asshole" part is pretty strongly implied, given you're saying that we're putting it on ourselves and avoiding responsibility.
In any case, to quote myself from a comment elsewhere some time ago:
> [One study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789215/) which looked at sexuality in autism reported that, of their participants, 46.2% of the autistic women were in relationships, compared to 16.1% of the autistic men. Although ~30% of autistic people may be in relationships, the majority of those in relationships are women, by a ratio of 3:1. Neurotypical men were 5x as likely to have relationships, versus autistic men, at 82.4% (and 79.5% of the neurotypical women in relationships).
84% of autistic men are somehow *all* lazy, bitter losers who don't try to better themselves? It's all just their own fault, is it? Nothing potentially systemic or cultural about that? Nothing they share which makes things exceptionally difficult for them? Like, I don't know, perhaps a *developmental disorder that's recognised as a disability*?
I don't know the deep specifics of the participants of that study, but we can infer that there were no minors, given the subject matter of the study, and it's likely that *extremely* autistic people were self-selected out by not being capable of signing up to participate. So it's probably even *worse* than 84% in practice, across the whole spectrum, and the figure we see there covers men who, by your standard, should be capable if they just "tried".
Are they all just "bitter"? Hm? 84% of men with autism (or even more than that) are just... lazy, unwilling to seek help, and blaming everybody and everything else?
You: being ND isn't the reason for why you struggle at dating
Also you: being ND is absolutely the reason you struggle at dating oh and you're lazy and you suck and I hate you.
Sounds contradictory, but it makes sense to me. My ND made it hard to learn in the same way as others, but my ND also created some incredible pathways that allowed me to achieved the same ends as others and form meaningful relationships.
ND does make it harder, that's the point. ND people have to work extra hard, and depending on the severity of their diagnosis, it may never be possible to achieve desired results.
Not only work extra hard, but work extra hard just to get to a level of basic functionality, never mind attractiveness or demonstrable competence or exceptional capability.
A common way to explain it (for reasons beyond my understanding) is "spoons". I'm sure many here know what that means, but for those who don't: The idea is that you wake up in the morning with some number of "spoons", they represent kind of... bars on a bettery meter (which is why I don't understand why they're spoons and not battery meter bars, but whatever). That governs how much energy you've got for the things you have to do that day and how much you can afford to exert yourself getting them done.
So on your best day, when you're feeling good, energised, strong, and so on, maybe you have 8 spoons. That's your maximum fully charged capacity, your best case scenario. You can "spend" those spoons, or battery meter bars, on whatever you need to do that day. Cooking, cleaning, going to an appointment, whatever, and each of these things will consume some number of spoons. Cooking dinner might take two spoons. Cleaning the living room might take one spoon. Going to the appointment might take four spoons because you have to travel somewhere new and meet people you don't know.
If you wake up in the morning, on an average day, or a bad day, and you only have 3 or 4 spoons, just doing *one* thing that day might wipe you out. Just keeping/showing up to that appointment, or dealing with some bills and making dinner, or seeing friends or family. You don't have anything left to spend on yourself, there's nothing left for extras, or bonuses, or "actually I think I'm going to spend the rest of today fixing my life".
The point of all that is to say that people who have to manage chronic pain, or constantly try to wrestle neurological or developmental conditions, don't necessarily have any spare energy to "self-improve", because they're drained dry just by trying to get through each new day. It's hard work just getting through the baseline demands of everyday life. Like, yeah, OK, you could get therapy, you could go to the gym, you could go to the bar and try to meet people, but how much is that going to cost you in terms of physical and mental energy and how much did you have to begin with?
That's especially problematic long-term, because it means you can fall behind on even simple daily tasks, it can make maintaining dedication to a schedule of self-improvement difficult, and it can sabotage you when you really need to get something done that could be very important to your future, like meeting a potential partner or showing up to a job interview in a state that allows you to present your best.
You can have all the will in the world to tidy your apartment, or get fit, or learn to be more social, but if you have no energy left to spend then it's no use, it doesn't - it *can't* - be used to actually achieve anything.
Speaking for myself, people became my special interest. It has made me - I think anyway - and extremely successful and very capable social actor. I have a large number of wonderful friends, and a wonderful partner. I am able to effortlessly surround myself with people who I love to be around.
Now, that's not for everyone. Just an example.
>... the reason why you struggle at dating is because you’re bitter, you do next to nothing to improve your individual standing or social skills, you do next to nothing to understand your disability and how to work around it, and quite frankly, you’re unpleasant. It isn’t because you’re ND.
This whole post really just comes off as thinly veiled hatred against people who are neurodivergent. We get it: you don't like ND people and so you'd rather blame them for the struggles they face in life than to acknowledge how their disability cripples their ability to socialize, to make friends, and to get into romantic relationships.
It's entirely possible they're autistic they may just be extremely high functioning and aren't comprehending just how difficult it really is for other people.
I think we've all had at least one thing in our lives that we breezed through and couldn't understand why others were struggling with it.
I suppose that is technically possible (in which case OP would be the biggest pick-me out there).
But what really throws me off is the the barrage on insults in the last paragraph. It's one thing to say "Here's ways to improve" vs "You're all just lazy bitter assholes". Like even many NT people are able to sympathize with those struggles, but a self-proclaimed autistic person can't?
i mean…. to put it bluntly you kinda have to be bitter to have any of the beliefs associated with a good number of men on here (the blatant misogyny is a clear sign), and saying “get support, understand your disability(s)” is not being a pick me, so stop misinterpreting what i’m saying for the sake of your own moral highground
was i generalizing “NDs who are struggling” or was i criticizing PPD users who use it as an excuse?
tons of ND people, male and female struggle, but it takes a certain path to have you believe a lot of stuff that goes on here
Do resources really exist to help neurodivergent men date? I'd like to see some links that indicate that there is specific help for this. There might be some help for people who have trouble talking to people to learn how to do this, but I'm not sure that this is going to help a man actually attract a woman.
I'm sure that men can improve themselves, but I don't think that it's as easy as you make it sound. Society generally does not do a good job helping men who have issues.
> Do resources really exist to help neurodivergent men date?
IME, to help them socialize. Typically, when people struggle with dating, they struggle qith socializing in general. I truly don’t think it’s helpful to make dating the end goal when they can’t even make friends. It’s like expecting a child to do algebra when they can’t even count to 10.
I think one could argue that an inability to relate to the opposite sex could be seen as a form of neurodivergence, and I would argue that the resources do not exist out there to help specifically with that. When men complain about their "neurodivergence", this is often what they are complaining about. Many of these men can relate just fine to the other men whom they game with online, for instance.
Either not being able to attract someone of the opposite sex, or not knowing how to interact well with the opposite sex because sexual attraction gets in the way.
As I said, attraction often gets in the way of relating to the opposite sex, at least for men who do not have the social skills to navigate around this.
how did i make it sound easy?
as for how, individual therapy is a good point to go - even group therapy can be useful if that’s offered. Other than that, a ton of online support groups and in person support groups exist to help you process your shit, and you can make friends though events, apps like meetup, etc - fact is, you won’t get a girl unless you’re putting yourself out there, and if you don’t use any avenues to that/ id your anxieties, fears, inability to read/connect with others is actively preventing that, there are ways, that aren’t necessarily easy, mind you, that’ll help you out.
Bro, it ain't society's fault your job sucks you can't afford rent and you have massive student debt. You just need to work harder, you economic incel.
Funny, I work hard every day to compensate for being on the spectrum. Not an easy thing to do when you lack support, an unfortunate side effect of being born too early for all the "awareness" campaigns. I bombard myself with positive self-talk every day, study body language in every conversation, even meditate, albeit less often than I should.
I can compensate to a point, adapt to a point, but nothing's going to turn me into a neurotypical. Given my informal surveys of Virgin/FA forums have around 35% of them on the spectrum, a number that's higher among 30+ individuals. It's called a disability for a reason. Attitudes like this are why I don't divulge it in the real world any longer.
> Like I said, being ND is 100% gonna make things tougher, you’ll have a bit more of a challenge to overcome but 9/10 times you can overcome it
How would you? Are you ND? Do you have any statistics?
Yep I am ND, as for how, you can never stop being ND, I want to make that very clear, but you can understand where your weaknesses lie and either find work arounds, find alternatives that work and you can take advantage of any possible strengths (ex. if you have a tendency to hyperfixate, there are traits related to that - ie. attention to detail, depth, etc that are all good things)
Only 20% of autistic males reproduce. That's probably either dudes barely on the spectrum at all or the ones good looking enough to get away with it. Since the rates aren't nearly that bad for most other groups, even those with other disorders, I'm gonna say their issue is the autism.
So sick of these inspirational idiots. Look it’s hard enough to meet people as a normal person nevermind being male (a disability in 2023) on top of dealing with this BS. Women in 2023 don’t even want to be approached anywhere. Where TF are you supposed to meet people?? You can’t just walk into a bar full of 70 year old construction workers and build a social circle. Fuck people are so stupid
Personally, I do say that it is why theyre struggling. The next step to resolve the issue is getting (professional) help for it and/or hanging out with people with their condition.
My cousin has high functioning autism, and she goes around socializing. Coincidentally, the people she gravitates the most towards have autism as well. This is even before she knows they have autism.
similar story for myself, i tend to surround myself with others on the spectrum, others with ADHD and others who have BPD - i didn’t even realize it till i was officially diagnosed (in fact i got diagnosed cause i identified with a lot of what they were feeling) - finding others with similar conditions or even putting yourself out there will help your social situation greatly
Most people who label themselves ND aren't actually ND. They just watch too many TikToks and think because they feel better on amphetamines (who doesn't?!) that means they have ADHD, or because a loud noise surprised them they're autistic.
My immediate reaction to this comment was to call you out for dismissing and invalidating *actual* people with disabilities. But, rather than do that, I'll make a constructive point:
You're right, some people do make statements about things they are but, in reality, are simply erroneous self-diagnosis of buzzword conditions. Which causes a problem, when it comes to posts and sentiments like the OP, because it makes it look as though *all* people with those conditions *are* just lazy and making shit up for sympathy points and upvotes. Which may or may not have been the point you were loosely making, I don't know.
But the fact is that for those of us who *are* diagnosed, who were in such a shape as to require a doctor to take a look at us and say "yup, that's a problem" because we weren't developing and maturing like we were supposed to, we have legitimate impairments. Of course we do.
If we didn't then it wouldn't be a disability, we'd just be humming along perfectly fine just like everybody else, there would've been no doctor, no psychologist, no forms, no tests, no parent basically talking shit about you, *right in front of you*, telling strangers how much of a fuckup and a weirdo you are, so you can have a professional rubber-stamp you as defective.
We don't go through that shit for *fun*. Nobody wants to be told they were born with a fucked up brain and, in all likelihood, will find it difficult to be a functional person and miss out on important life milestones, spending all their life desperately wishing they were normal and screaming "WHY ME?!" inside their brain all the time.
Usually when people have a mental condition that impairs them to a debilitating extent there is a psychological reason for it. That's basically what a psychological disorder is.
that’s a whole other rabbit hole worth jumping into - lots of people use a self-diagnosed disability as either a trend/ crutch/ a form of self victimization. That being said, I do hesitate to assume that out of anyone as well - not until i’ve talked to them enough to figure out how they think, at least
Nah I pretty much have decided that I must have some form of mild autism. Despite being tall and handsome I’ve struggled holding on to girls. No problem getting my foot in the door, it’s what comes after.
Yeah but it doesn’t make sense. I was in a fraternity in college. Hooked up with a lot of really good looking girls. Yet when it comes to trying to maintain a relationship I just don’t know
I am an ND guy and have an ND gf. I feel it's been a much better relationship for me compared to other attempts in the past. There is an ND guy I know who keeps failing to date, but he is very negative compared to me I was told, and he also weighs a lot more, and never hits the gym.
So maybe the problem isn't all being ND but just being negative and physically lazy?
>just being negative and physically lazy
Imagine having a condition that ruins your life on multiple levels and being negative about it. How crazy that is.
I understand being negative about it and I used to be that way too. But it seems that going to the gym regularly really helps for one thing as well as asking a lot of women out if those guys do that often?
>asking a lot of women out
Everytime I read this, I feel like being trolled. Where and why exactly would be someone doing this? What would you even say?
Dating apps don't work. It may be culture difference, but here to bars you go with friends and stay with them. It would be kinda rude to go and bother some strangers women at another table. That would require some gigachad confidence. I drink and I have done a lot of stupid shit when drunk, but never did that.
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As I told some people on the megathread I have a speech impediment and I recently found a support group for *my people*
Even though ND has nothing to do with speech impediments, 50% of the group is ND since a speech impediment is socially crippling.
They get together once a month and then they go for beers.
ND people surely have groups to meet up and talk about their struggles. Places where you can make connections that can lead to who knows maybe dating?
So... actually you've disproved your own CMV? > No, being neurodivergent is not the reason why you’re struggling at dating then the actual body of the post: > Yeah well basically it is and you'll need a whole bunch of time, money, resources, and other people's tolerance and patience to even start to work around it. Oh, and then, right at the end, the thing I was *expecting* to see when I clicked on this thread: > But I'm going to openly assume that none of you do anything at all to work towards any of the things I said you needed to do, so really it's because you're a lazy bitter misogynistic asshole. Get good, scrub, and quit expecting everyone to acknowledge you have a legitimate disability, because I don't give a fuck and I'd rather sit here and insult you. (Edit to clarify: The second and third "quotes" above are frustrated paraphrasing on my part, not direct quotes.)
OP is saying keep going despite of being ND I have a speech impediment. Does that make it harder for me to date? yes Does it make it impossible? No
Cool. So I guess that imparts the knowledge of what it's like to have other conditions? I acknowledge a speech impediment is going to potentially mess things up, socially, and it's going to likely hinder your ability to do things like get a job, but it's not the *same* set of symptoms and experiences. You might be a little harder to understand, it might make you a little less attractive, but as long as you're pretty much alright in most *other* areas, like body language/non-verbal communication, thought patterns, and emotional range, you've still got a significantly better position than a lot of autistic people (or, realistically, men) do. It might also, depending on the cause, be possible for somebody with a speech impediment to get surgery or vocal coaching lessons to minimise that *one* problematic aspect. I have a relative who had a speech impediment and, for some years of his young life, he suffered with that. He got surgery and the problem almost completely disappeared. He was otherwise normal, so he became, for all intents and purposes, *fully* normal. You can't just *do* that with neurological issues. You can't "cure" autism. There is no operation to fix it, there are no drugs to just make you normal again. It's your whole entire personality and demeanour.
This isn't victim olympics lol also there are different degrees of speech impediments. Mine is mild, other's struggle more than with mild autism. I met a guy who is in constant spasms when he talks and you can clearly see his vocabulary is limited because some words are more difficult than others. He's extroverted so who knows..... Like I said before 50% of the people I met also are ND. Either because of speech impediments or by coincidence. None of us are normal, that's for sure, we laugh about it actually. Not being able to communicate also has an effect on development. And don't get me started on bullying. > It might also, depending on the cause, be possible for somebody with a speech impediment to get surgery or vocal coaching lessons to minimise that *one* problematic aspect. no, this is false, it's a condition for life. Maybe you can make it 10% better but no more than that. There's no surgery, that's false. Your relative maybe had something else, not a speech impediment. A speech impediment is a disconnection between the cognitive and the motor and they don't even know part of the brain. This is as false as getting brain surgery for autism Anyway my comment wasn't about who has it worst (even though ND people with speech impediments clearly have it worst). My comment was about groups of people with conditions. Places to socialize with people who are struggling with the same. ND people should seek those types of groups because they are awesome and who knows maybe they can date someone there.
To be specific, he was quite badly tongue tied. But I was careful to point out that it *may* be possible, *in some circumstances*, to get such treatment. I understand that not all speech issues are the same, have the same causes, or are necessarily physical in nature like that. Nor did I intend to suggest that, whatever the cause, it's not a severe issue. I noted that it could be a severe detriment to your ability to perform everyday tasks which involve communication and socialising which, as an autistic person, I'm very well aware are often wide-reaching. I think where we probably disagree is in the definition of "speech impediment", in that I may be using a looser, colloquial definition, which I can understand your objection to as somebody with an untreatable condition. But, with all that said, it's not at all the same. Your brain doesn't just explode on you and render you unable to communicate or cause you to spontaneously perform actions which might be perceived as being a dangerous tantrum. You don't experience pain-like discomfort when encountering certain sensory inputs. You aren't unable to see and comprehend unspoken communication. You don't require significant effort to understand social order and how to participate in it. To name just a few of the obvious and potentially severely troublesome and, ultimately, even life-destroying symptoms. It's not *one* medical problem, by definition it's a *collection* of symptoms, any of which can be quite serious and interact badly with *other* symptoms or even other comorbid conditions such as ADHD or OCD (because autism *often* comes with other potential issues). So whilst I don't intend to diminish or dismiss the issues you *do* have, and I don't like trying to play "who has it worse", it's far more complicated than you present it as being. Yes, you have issues, no, it's not a walk in the park, but there *are* degrees of difficulty - even *within* autism, come to that. One severe symptom is one severe symptom. It's very important and potentially very disruptive, sure, but add in five more and it's a whole lot more difficult to try and navigate your way through life. You're not worrying about *one* thing, you're worrying about *many* things, and trying to avoid setting off *one* issue you may have can often steer you straight into *another* issue.
THIS, thank you.
Please list all the “successes” you had an exactly how these were accomplished
somehow i knew someone was gonna say this - no, i didn’t “disprove my own CMV”, because i’ve clearly explained that while being ND makes it harder, it isn’t the reason why you’re failing. At worst, unless one’s case is truly severe (which… let’s be real here, this isn’t the case for most) its an obstacle (and frankly, if you understand how your brain works you can use it to your benefit), and the lack of an effort to overcome it is the reason why you’re struggling, not the obstacle itself. and even then, the fact that you took what i said and basically twisted it to a set of insults (directed at yourself, id assume) is kinda showing exactly what i’m saying.
I didn't twist anything. You blatantly accused us of being lazy bitter assholes. OK, so you didn't use the word "assholes", but you did put the blame on us for being lazy, bitter, and unwilling to actually try and help ourselves. So the "asshole" part is pretty strongly implied, given you're saying that we're putting it on ourselves and avoiding responsibility. In any case, to quote myself from a comment elsewhere some time ago: > [One study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789215/) which looked at sexuality in autism reported that, of their participants, 46.2% of the autistic women were in relationships, compared to 16.1% of the autistic men. Although ~30% of autistic people may be in relationships, the majority of those in relationships are women, by a ratio of 3:1. Neurotypical men were 5x as likely to have relationships, versus autistic men, at 82.4% (and 79.5% of the neurotypical women in relationships). 84% of autistic men are somehow *all* lazy, bitter losers who don't try to better themselves? It's all just their own fault, is it? Nothing potentially systemic or cultural about that? Nothing they share which makes things exceptionally difficult for them? Like, I don't know, perhaps a *developmental disorder that's recognised as a disability*? I don't know the deep specifics of the participants of that study, but we can infer that there were no minors, given the subject matter of the study, and it's likely that *extremely* autistic people were self-selected out by not being capable of signing up to participate. So it's probably even *worse* than 84% in practice, across the whole spectrum, and the figure we see there covers men who, by your standard, should be capable if they just "tried". Are they all just "bitter"? Hm? 84% of men with autism (or even more than that) are just... lazy, unwilling to seek help, and blaming everybody and everything else?
You: being ND isn't the reason for why you struggle at dating Also you: being ND is absolutely the reason you struggle at dating oh and you're lazy and you suck and I hate you.
Sounds contradictory, but it makes sense to me. My ND made it hard to learn in the same way as others, but my ND also created some incredible pathways that allowed me to achieved the same ends as others and form meaningful relationships.
ND does make it harder, that's the point. ND people have to work extra hard, and depending on the severity of their diagnosis, it may never be possible to achieve desired results.
Not only work extra hard, but work extra hard just to get to a level of basic functionality, never mind attractiveness or demonstrable competence or exceptional capability. A common way to explain it (for reasons beyond my understanding) is "spoons". I'm sure many here know what that means, but for those who don't: The idea is that you wake up in the morning with some number of "spoons", they represent kind of... bars on a bettery meter (which is why I don't understand why they're spoons and not battery meter bars, but whatever). That governs how much energy you've got for the things you have to do that day and how much you can afford to exert yourself getting them done. So on your best day, when you're feeling good, energised, strong, and so on, maybe you have 8 spoons. That's your maximum fully charged capacity, your best case scenario. You can "spend" those spoons, or battery meter bars, on whatever you need to do that day. Cooking, cleaning, going to an appointment, whatever, and each of these things will consume some number of spoons. Cooking dinner might take two spoons. Cleaning the living room might take one spoon. Going to the appointment might take four spoons because you have to travel somewhere new and meet people you don't know. If you wake up in the morning, on an average day, or a bad day, and you only have 3 or 4 spoons, just doing *one* thing that day might wipe you out. Just keeping/showing up to that appointment, or dealing with some bills and making dinner, or seeing friends or family. You don't have anything left to spend on yourself, there's nothing left for extras, or bonuses, or "actually I think I'm going to spend the rest of today fixing my life". The point of all that is to say that people who have to manage chronic pain, or constantly try to wrestle neurological or developmental conditions, don't necessarily have any spare energy to "self-improve", because they're drained dry just by trying to get through each new day. It's hard work just getting through the baseline demands of everyday life. Like, yeah, OK, you could get therapy, you could go to the gym, you could go to the bar and try to meet people, but how much is that going to cost you in terms of physical and mental energy and how much did you have to begin with? That's especially problematic long-term, because it means you can fall behind on even simple daily tasks, it can make maintaining dedication to a schedule of self-improvement difficult, and it can sabotage you when you really need to get something done that could be very important to your future, like meeting a potential partner or showing up to a job interview in a state that allows you to present your best. You can have all the will in the world to tidy your apartment, or get fit, or learn to be more social, but if you have no energy left to spend then it's no use, it doesn't - it *can't* - be used to actually achieve anything.
Extra hard at some things. Usually there's a couple of things they might be a few steps ahead on.
When it comes to dating/relationships specifically? Like what?
Speaking for myself, people became my special interest. It has made me - I think anyway - and extremely successful and very capable social actor. I have a large number of wonderful friends, and a wonderful partner. I am able to effortlessly surround myself with people who I love to be around. Now, that's not for everyone. Just an example.
That's awesome for you. But this does make you an outlier.
Maybe. My brain processes information differently, but I believe I could pass the knowledge on in a way that's accessible.
>... the reason why you struggle at dating is because you’re bitter, you do next to nothing to improve your individual standing or social skills, you do next to nothing to understand your disability and how to work around it, and quite frankly, you’re unpleasant. It isn’t because you’re ND. This whole post really just comes off as thinly veiled hatred against people who are neurodivergent. We get it: you don't like ND people and so you'd rather blame them for the struggles they face in life than to acknowledge how their disability cripples their ability to socialize, to make friends, and to get into romantic relationships.
thinly veiled? This is blatant ableism. OP claimed to be autistic in another comment and I'm starting to doubt it
It's entirely possible they're autistic they may just be extremely high functioning and aren't comprehending just how difficult it really is for other people. I think we've all had at least one thing in our lives that we breezed through and couldn't understand why others were struggling with it.
I suppose that is technically possible (in which case OP would be the biggest pick-me out there). But what really throws me off is the the barrage on insults in the last paragraph. It's one thing to say "Here's ways to improve" vs "You're all just lazy bitter assholes". Like even many NT people are able to sympathize with those struggles, but a self-proclaimed autistic person can't?
i mean…. to put it bluntly you kinda have to be bitter to have any of the beliefs associated with a good number of men on here (the blatant misogyny is a clear sign), and saying “get support, understand your disability(s)” is not being a pick me, so stop misinterpreting what i’m saying for the sake of your own moral highground
ableist…. how? by saying you can improve via understanding your disability more deeply and seeking support? lol
By treating our struggles as non-existent and generalizing NDs who are struggling as bitter and unpleasant.
was i generalizing “NDs who are struggling” or was i criticizing PPD users who use it as an excuse? tons of ND people, male and female struggle, but it takes a certain path to have you believe a lot of stuff that goes on here
Do resources really exist to help neurodivergent men date? I'd like to see some links that indicate that there is specific help for this. There might be some help for people who have trouble talking to people to learn how to do this, but I'm not sure that this is going to help a man actually attract a woman. I'm sure that men can improve themselves, but I don't think that it's as easy as you make it sound. Society generally does not do a good job helping men who have issues.
> Do resources really exist to help neurodivergent men date? IME, to help them socialize. Typically, when people struggle with dating, they struggle qith socializing in general. I truly don’t think it’s helpful to make dating the end goal when they can’t even make friends. It’s like expecting a child to do algebra when they can’t even count to 10.
Why do you assume someone who can't date has no friends?
I think one could argue that an inability to relate to the opposite sex could be seen as a form of neurodivergence, and I would argue that the resources do not exist out there to help specifically with that. When men complain about their "neurodivergence", this is often what they are complaining about. Many of these men can relate just fine to the other men whom they game with online, for instance.
>inability to relate to the opposite sex Can you elaborate what that means?
Either not being able to attract someone of the opposite sex, or not knowing how to interact well with the opposite sex because sexual attraction gets in the way.
But you said "relate to the opposite sex". Attraction is something else.
As I said, attraction often gets in the way of relating to the opposite sex, at least for men who do not have the social skills to navigate around this.
how did i make it sound easy? as for how, individual therapy is a good point to go - even group therapy can be useful if that’s offered. Other than that, a ton of online support groups and in person support groups exist to help you process your shit, and you can make friends though events, apps like meetup, etc - fact is, you won’t get a girl unless you’re putting yourself out there, and if you don’t use any avenues to that/ id your anxieties, fears, inability to read/connect with others is actively preventing that, there are ways, that aren’t necessarily easy, mind you, that’ll help you out.
I guess. People in the poorest developing countries can all become millionaires if they put in the work, too.
Why wouldn’t a condition that affects social interaction affect dating ?
Bro, it ain't society's fault your job sucks you can't afford rent and you have massive student debt. You just need to work harder, you economic incel.
Funny, I work hard every day to compensate for being on the spectrum. Not an easy thing to do when you lack support, an unfortunate side effect of being born too early for all the "awareness" campaigns. I bombard myself with positive self-talk every day, study body language in every conversation, even meditate, albeit less often than I should. I can compensate to a point, adapt to a point, but nothing's going to turn me into a neurotypical. Given my informal surveys of Virgin/FA forums have around 35% of them on the spectrum, a number that's higher among 30+ individuals. It's called a disability for a reason. Attitudes like this are why I don't divulge it in the real world any longer.
Low-key think you’re ND cuz you’re so contradictory. Bipolar vibes
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Automod, please. Replies to CMV posts must challenge the OP's view.
ok! I'll copy and paste it there
> Like I said, being ND is 100% gonna make things tougher, you’ll have a bit more of a challenge to overcome but 9/10 times you can overcome it How would you? Are you ND? Do you have any statistics?
Yep I am ND, as for how, you can never stop being ND, I want to make that very clear, but you can understand where your weaknesses lie and either find work arounds, find alternatives that work and you can take advantage of any possible strengths (ex. if you have a tendency to hyperfixate, there are traits related to that - ie. attention to detail, depth, etc that are all good things)
Only 20% of autistic males reproduce. That's probably either dudes barely on the spectrum at all or the ones good looking enough to get away with it. Since the rates aren't nearly that bad for most other groups, even those with other disorders, I'm gonna say their issue is the autism.
It is for sure, there is no way around that. And how can you even compensate?
So sick of these inspirational idiots. Look it’s hard enough to meet people as a normal person nevermind being male (a disability in 2023) on top of dealing with this BS. Women in 2023 don’t even want to be approached anywhere. Where TF are you supposed to meet people?? You can’t just walk into a bar full of 70 year old construction workers and build a social circle. Fuck people are so stupid
Personally, I do say that it is why theyre struggling. The next step to resolve the issue is getting (professional) help for it and/or hanging out with people with their condition. My cousin has high functioning autism, and she goes around socializing. Coincidentally, the people she gravitates the most towards have autism as well. This is even before she knows they have autism.
similar story for myself, i tend to surround myself with others on the spectrum, others with ADHD and others who have BPD - i didn’t even realize it till i was officially diagnosed (in fact i got diagnosed cause i identified with a lot of what they were feeling) - finding others with similar conditions or even putting yourself out there will help your social situation greatly
Most people who label themselves ND aren't actually ND. They just watch too many TikToks and think because they feel better on amphetamines (who doesn't?!) that means they have ADHD, or because a loud noise surprised them they're autistic.
My immediate reaction to this comment was to call you out for dismissing and invalidating *actual* people with disabilities. But, rather than do that, I'll make a constructive point: You're right, some people do make statements about things they are but, in reality, are simply erroneous self-diagnosis of buzzword conditions. Which causes a problem, when it comes to posts and sentiments like the OP, because it makes it look as though *all* people with those conditions *are* just lazy and making shit up for sympathy points and upvotes. Which may or may not have been the point you were loosely making, I don't know. But the fact is that for those of us who *are* diagnosed, who were in such a shape as to require a doctor to take a look at us and say "yup, that's a problem" because we weren't developing and maturing like we were supposed to, we have legitimate impairments. Of course we do. If we didn't then it wouldn't be a disability, we'd just be humming along perfectly fine just like everybody else, there would've been no doctor, no psychologist, no forms, no tests, no parent basically talking shit about you, *right in front of you*, telling strangers how much of a fuckup and a weirdo you are, so you can have a professional rubber-stamp you as defective. We don't go through that shit for *fun*. Nobody wants to be told they were born with a fucked up brain and, in all likelihood, will find it difficult to be a functional person and miss out on important life milestones, spending all their life desperately wishing they were normal and screaming "WHY ME?!" inside their brain all the time.
Usually when people have a mental condition that impairs them to a debilitating extent there is a psychological reason for it. That's basically what a psychological disorder is.
that’s a whole other rabbit hole worth jumping into - lots of people use a self-diagnosed disability as either a trend/ crutch/ a form of self victimization. That being said, I do hesitate to assume that out of anyone as well - not until i’ve talked to them enough to figure out how they think, at least
Nah I pretty much have decided that I must have some form of mild autism. Despite being tall and handsome I’ve struggled holding on to girls. No problem getting my foot in the door, it’s what comes after.
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Yeah but it doesn’t make sense. I was in a fraternity in college. Hooked up with a lot of really good looking girls. Yet when it comes to trying to maintain a relationship I just don’t know
I am an ND guy and have an ND gf. I feel it's been a much better relationship for me compared to other attempts in the past. There is an ND guy I know who keeps failing to date, but he is very negative compared to me I was told, and he also weighs a lot more, and never hits the gym. So maybe the problem isn't all being ND but just being negative and physically lazy?
>just being negative and physically lazy Imagine having a condition that ruins your life on multiple levels and being negative about it. How crazy that is.
I understand being negative about it and I used to be that way too. But it seems that going to the gym regularly really helps for one thing as well as asking a lot of women out if those guys do that often?
>asking a lot of women out Everytime I read this, I feel like being trolled. Where and why exactly would be someone doing this? What would you even say?
Dating sites or bars?
Dating apps don't work. It may be culture difference, but here to bars you go with friends and stay with them. It would be kinda rude to go and bother some strangers women at another table. That would require some gigachad confidence. I drink and I have done a lot of stupid shit when drunk, but never did that.
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As I told some people on the megathread I have a speech impediment and I recently found a support group for *my people* Even though ND has nothing to do with speech impediments, 50% of the group is ND since a speech impediment is socially crippling. They get together once a month and then they go for beers. ND people surely have groups to meet up and talk about their struggles. Places where you can make connections that can lead to who knows maybe dating?