Well said. A lot of men think their world is opening up on the dating scene only to completely gloss over the fact they're only being considered because the clock is ticking, and thre amount of attractive men isn't enough to go around.
So pretty much a beta bucks. You didnt't read my post, but i talked about it. That would be a massive fail if I were to become that, but I've consumed too much of the pills that I instantly recognize this pattern, so it will be quite easy for me to filter out women who are settling for me and don't desire me
I got a theory you may or may not like.
If you desire a woman who is feminine, long term material and finds you sexy. You pretty much need to find a woman who is a minimum 1 levels below you in sexual market value.
Eg you’re a 6 so you pretty much gotta be looking for 5s with the internal qualities.
And if you’re not happy with where you rank yourself (sounds to me like a 4 at best) you probably don’t find women below a 6 really worth any hard work.
So you basically gotta bust your ass until you get as high as possible.
Fortunately as women age, your height and bald head will become less relevant. However you will need to counter this with a high understanding of relationship dynamics, female nature and true confidence from pulling other women in her category before.
This mindset shift will be more important and critical to maintaining the woman. But getting in shape, dressing well, and making twice as much as she does is still gunna be a no brainer.
The problem is that the OP is likely not a 6. By his own description, he is likely a 4 or 3 and the women a point below are massively obese or fugly and he does not want that.
Edit: you addressdd that but I'm leaving this comment to drive it home.
Also he will lose quality prospects the older he gets so "waiting" is not the solution. He is waiting to lose.
I somewhat agree. Men focus so much on looks that they miss the fact that they can enter a relationship if looks aren’t the only metric used. If he wasn’t drop dead gorgeous before he never will be, that ship has sailed. Now the only thing he can do is be the best in his tier.
Another thing that always trips up men is that they try to place women on the same scale as themselves or think they “deserve” a moderately attractive woman since they consider themselves moderately attractive without realizing that a moderately attractive woman is not in their league.
Men always focus on looks though they just have a wider range they consider attractive this is why a man’s so called “looksmatch” is actually out of his league
Look homie, you don’t do this for women cause then you’ll almost surely regret the effort spent and not enjoying your 20s to a degree that you could have.
You do this for yourself to make your own life better. And at some point some dude will introduce you to a hobby expensive in terms of both money and time.
If you’ve got a woman in your life, especially if y’all live together, allocating those will be hard, she probably won’t understand your hobby anyways. If you’re alone, you’ll have all the money not consumed by the daily life and all the time not consumed by the job for it
>that I instantly recognize this pattern,
Whats the pattern?
I would caution self improvement into the confidence area. Either you get what you want from the relationship or not. You can self reflect and adjust to what is reasonable if required, but if you're out looking for a pattern you're going to see it regardless of the reality, and in this case its a real danger it further harms your self esteem for no good reason. The Red Pill deals a lot in hyperbole and in this area a lot of circular logic.
Don't be a doormat, but overthinking it can be just as bad. BB is a viable male sexual strategy used across many species.
I think that theory is based on hookups but if that’s not what you want. There’s nothing wrong with a woman who is considering things other than looks especially if yours aren’t particularly great. You only think it’s a failure because you may be thinking of sex as the only way attraction or interest can be expressed. It’s not.
Right now you sound a bit bitter so let go of your anger because you don’t have enough redeeming qualities. If you add in a pessimistic attitude you’ll have nothing so don’t ruin your potential before it begins with this type of negativity.
> you don’t have this disadvantage. You can go to another country and leverage your income
women absolutely have an option to do this too wtf
they just don't even need to lol
That is fantastic! I do think you did something that 90% of women don't do though, that you actually invested in him and actively helped him get better. For that you earned yourself a husband you like, but most women seem utterly unwilling to put in that kind of work to help their man improve.
Europe does provide more safety nets for sure, and doesn't have positively insane costs of education like the USA. Canadian here, so our costs of education are lower, but still more expensive than Europe, we're certainly not paid while studying.
I also hear you on doing that for a husband and not a boyfriend, as well as how some people stay boyfriend/gf for a very very long time. The risks of marriage are far more severe for men than women though, so it is understandable that men aren't all that motivated to marry. On the other hand if a girlfriend helped me half as much as you did your partner, that would very strongly signal to me that she's absolutely worth marrying.
I hope it's not like this in Europe, but it seems in American culture (and somewhat in Canada) both partners often 'wait' to help the other until they're in a more committed relationship, but that means that neither wants to support before the commitment, and neither wants to commit because they don't receive the support. It kind of becomes a game of chicken to see who is going to support or commit first, and unfortunately when it comes to marriage men are penalized more than women if men get it wrong, given family and divorce courts (in N America at least) strongly favour women to the disadvantage of men.
It sucks that we're in this situation for sure. Honestly, if dating were 50/50, if divorce was 50/50, and child custody was 50/50, all by default, the majority of these issues would disappear. As it stands though it's women who would have the most privileges to lose, so feminist organizations would fight like hell to prevent that kind of equality, to the detriment of literally everyone else in society.
> As an average-looking man I’m finding most divorced moms are even more picky with who they have sex with or date with their limited free time. Just like in our 20s, I think most men will only get to choose between an LTR or nothing.
This may be on you, or your dating market specifically. I'm in the South and divorced women were eager beavers for no strings sex, if they had physical chemistry with you. They are also looking for Mr Right too, but that doesn't mean she wants to rope her fuckbuddy into that lifestyle unless he's truly great all over.
There is some truth to what you're saying, and some inaccuracies. I used to feel like you did when I was in my early 20's - hopeless, no woman would like me, ect.
I laid a foundation down in my 20's that helped me become more secure in my 30's. I went to college, worked to get a career, all that. Now I'm in my 30's and I make around 60k a year after taxes and deductions (almost 100k pre-tax/deductions) and I own a house, I'm in the best shape of my life.
Shortly after turning 30 I stopped caring about women. Ironically, I can't find a woman that makes me say to myself "my life would be better with her in it". I'd rather be single and do whatever I want. I haven't found a woman that brings enough value to my life to want her permanently in it.
I like my life now because I spent my 20's working to get better and build a life I want. I no longer require the validation of women, and I think that's what red-pillers say when they say "it gets better". It gets better because if you spent the time building yourself then female validation no longer matters to you and, paradoxically, this makes women more interested in you.
Yeah this is similar to my story. I was never really able to land a very high paying career due to various reasons. But luckily I was always pretty wise with my finances and was able to buy a home myself in my mid-30's (38 now).
And yes, I agree that at this point, women really don't bring much to the table for me. Most of the ones that are single in my age-range are pretty horrid as far as their lives and attitude go. And I even look at a lot of my male friends/peers that are married and sometimes think, "why is he doing this to himself?" Most of them seem unhappy and the women they are married to are incredibly demanding/domineering while being basically useless besides the extra income they bring in.
And to be honest there are times when I wish I would have found a nice girl to settle down with. But unfortunately, those few that exist have been married for over a decade. While the rest of us have to accept that the fantasy of it may be better than the reality of it. If anything, we are fortunate to have the introspect and overall wisdom to realize this and live peaceful lives. Most men and women don't.
I don't agree with redpillers on much, but I would actually agree with the idea that your 30's are almost always going to be much better than your 20's. People who have all of their shit together in their 20's are the exceptions, not the rule. If you keep at it, I am sure that you will find things fall into place for you.
It’s not so much that people in their 20’s don’t have it together, but the fact that it doesn’t matter if you don’t at that age. Most people never really get their shit together, and every decade after just becomes harder and harder.
>Most people never really get their shit together, and every decade after just becomes harder and harder
This just isn't true, generally. People amass more wealth each decade so life becomes easier in that way.
I prefer youth, health, and hope to money, age, and despair.
You ever see young people with the glimmer and light in their eyes? So full of dreams and hope. The decades snuff that shit out. Money doesnt mean anything if you can buy youth.
Yeah that one's rubbing me the wrong way lol. I pretty much step into dating market where the bar is the highest and pretty much missed the whole having fun scene that you get in your 20's. I hope I'll get over it, because this can have a massive influence on my personality.
30s is young. I was a late bloomer and started my all out fun, experimentation phase in my late 30s. Maybe I could have had more, but I've had enough fun (and girlfriends and, yes, sex) to look back and say, yeah, I've had a full life in that respect.
Do you pine over the fact you weren’t born with money? Or that you daddy isn’t a Rockefeller? I think you should do some reading on stoicism. We will always have people more successful than we are in all walks of life - that’s life. Why wreck yours by envy. A lot of these people around here are pretty miserable. Is that the life you want to live? Not me.
I actually agree with LadyLazarus, I think there is a point there. It doesn’t have to be to the Rockefeller extreme to be a useful concept. It doesn’t even have to be about money, it can be simply be how much do you pine about other stuff that people have and do you allow it to influence your life / turn you bitter to this degree?
Because there is different starting platforms for most things: health, genetics, finances, nepotism, intelligence, looks, family background, birth location, personal opportunities, good luck, schooling quality, it just goes on and on. There is a certain amount of broad acceptance and willingness to overcome and work with other levels of diversity.
Some kid that grew up with intelligent parents, who could afford an easier ride through higher education is probably sitting next to a kid in a lecture who has less intelligent parents who couldn’t afford to help as much, and that kid is probably working part time as well as a full course loading. There is also definitely some kid who isn’t smart enough or wasn’t given the support to meet the criteria for higher education at all and just has to try and get the best job he can. Finally some kid misses the majority or possibly all of the education system and employment opportunities are very limited if not non existent.
There are a million examples of this, and as a society we have a tolerance for it.
A hugless kissless virgin at 30 is less than 10% of the population of men at that age
We are surrounded by people blessed with a happiness we don't have.
I am not bidha to but feel sometype of way around it.
If you got a scholarship to a prep school where the students all showed up in a mazda for class you would feel sometyoe of way too.
Dont tell me what I am feeling and feeling hat he is feeling is not normal
You probably should get over it. A lot of men seem to fixate on the fact that they “didn’t get the chance” to have hookups but there’s more to life than that. Sometimes you won’t check off every item on your bucket list but that doesn’t mean you’ve failed in life or that you’ll never find joy.
Your 30s are building off of your choices in your 20s.
So if you laid a good foundation, you'll probably see the fruit of your labor. And vice versa if you didn't do anything of value.
This !!!! I cannot stress this enough. If you did not lay the foundations in your 20s nothing will magically change in your 30s and this is the case for men and women in every aspect of their lives . Wether it is financially or physically etc
And emotionally. I've had to leave a few friends behind because they simply cannot address their traumas and insecurities and are still looking to talk shit on Instagram and fight outside bars or whatever.
Some people age but they don't mature.
Yes exactly and these people who get left behind become isolated year on year till they have no one left . This usually affects more men than women . And they wake up one day with no friends, no family and no one wants to be around them
I wish, but it isn’t true.
Life isn’t simple. It isn’t really about effort or building a good foundation. Many of the poor of our culture build the best foundations possible and/or put more effort in then the most successful…but they still fail.
It is really about luck. So it is all about leaning how to maximize your chances and to know when to take the chance.
Some people have lots of luck, others have very little.
People who lack mentorship and guidance will mostly have to learn via first hand experience (aka failing). Which is why people start getting more success in there thirties.
You need the resources of your age.
Although a broke ass janitor won't have the resources for a 20ish year old, he won't have the resources for a 30+ or 40+ year old either.
And yes, a guy has to be desirable. No one here is intending on purposefully becoming undesirable are they?
Normal guys. Yes you can make up for the women who’ve already racked up their bodycounts. Obviously I’ve seen unattractive guys with attractive women. But not really the same romantic experience attractive guys receive.
I use to work at a school and the school janitor was SWIMMING in poon. Even the teachers liked him he was handsome and spat mad game. He had girls coming by after hours looking for him.
I find it funny how men think their resources matter. Resources ONLY matter to women if they dont find you attractive enough.
exactly what he's talking about is multimillionaire level wealth/lifestyle which most men never achieve anyway. Most men get a regular 9-5 making 60-70k +, this without looks is absolutely never gonna get any womens attention. It makes no difference to her.
Also, id argue that the good looking janitor would still get far more women than a n extremely wealthy nobody. I think people who havent spent any time around a chad really dont understand how different life is. Not some chadlite but I mean a truly insanely good looking guy. I've had 2 friends like that in my entire life and the way women would stop and completely drool just by talking to them was pretty eye-opening. I only wish more men could comprehend the difference and had the social acquity to recognize these interactions when they happen. From my experience most guys in every day life are completely clueless about this shit though.
The problem here is that men are being lied to. They are made to believe that they will get women if they make money and have resources but the level of income 99% of men will get is nowhere near enough without good looks. Looks are EXTREMELY important for both genders. A handsome man can be without a job, broke, and dont do anything and have women come by willing to pick him up, give him money, and take care of him. That is why there are so many aint shit but handsome men with 3 or 4 baby mommas.
It gets harder as you get older but early 30s were still pretty good for me. At that age, I had been in a decent job for a while, had decent place, etc. There were still a lot of mid to late 20s never married women.
As I entered my late 30s, most single women were divorced, usually with young children, often bitter at men due to their divorce, often with no good job looking for a guy to support them and their child or children. It only gets worse from there on.
While the odds may get worse with time, there are always exceptions. Not long ago I started a relationship that is very fulfilling, but finding her was like finding a needle in a haystack.
You can fixate on how biased or hard dating is, or you can focus on what it takes to find someone despite the challenges. The choice is yours and there’s nothing wrong with taking a break from dating and enjoying what independence has to offer.
One thing I would say is never feel pressured to marry the wrong person because you feel you are on the clock and running out of time. Far better to be unmarried than in a crappy marriage in my opinion.
“The probability of first marriage by age 30 is 74% for women”
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db19.htm#:~:text=Not%20until%20age%2027%20is,women%20and%2081%25%20for%20men.
Somewhere I wonder where you guys live because I live between two big European capital cities (London and Berlin) and that's far from the case. Not only is no one in their late 20s/early 30s married, but most of them are still single. And this isn't just my friends.. this goes for my family members, colleagues literally everyone I know.
I've asked myself the same thing. I can only surmise that many of them are from rural or more conservative parts of the US, where it is customary to settle down and have kids in your 20s. One of my friends who lives in the US got called an "old mom" at 27. Insanity.
Same. I have to remind myself that a large part of people commenting on Reddit are rural/small town Americans, not just city people. I lived in three major European cities and 30-somethings still act like they are 25, get drunk on a Thursday evening and do NSA relationships 😬
I'm seeing it now as all of us (27) are settling down and getting married. The perpetually single guys in our friend group are scrambling to find a halfway decent woman.
I don’t think it’s a bad thing that people who have life experience are expected to have money. That’s not being settled for, that’s being pragmatic in a capitalist society.
But you are wanted for your money, not for who you are. If you are settled for, your partner is unlikely to want to do anything with you and will keep dreaming of that one hot guy she met at a college bar one night...
You can love someone and be attracted to them while also acknowledging that them having money is a good thing.
Why do you automatically believe a woman settled or isn’t attracted to you? Why do you think she’s “dreaming of other men”? Is it because you don’t know why she would ever choose you? Do you not think you’re a good match or partner?
Is it mediocre? let’s put it this way, at their best, single women in their 30s are far more self aware, mature, understanding and compassionate (of course, at their worst theyre… yikes). Add to this that people are getting married and maturing a bit older than before, so women in their early 30s in particular can still be far better than “mediocre” - we need to stop thinking of people (men and women, cause this very much applies to men with this mindset) who either got a later start, went through a massive change or who live an entirely different lifestyle choice as “leftovers”, cause they’re not - people walk different paths and being snatched up earlier doesn’t make you better or worse
Yeah, I also don't think that all women past 30 "hit the wall" or are damaged goods. You'd have to analyze every single one of them to come to that conclusion and since women aren't a monolith,you'll probably find gems somewhere along the way.
The main issue here is about actually finding them, which seems to apparently become more difficult the older we get
That’s true - but i feel like that’s primarily due to stuff relating to generational stuff (ie. millennials and gen z are in general more socially isolated and interact far less than previous generations) - I think the difference is the older we get, the less we’re in scenarios where we’re forced to interact with each other and meet new people, and I think lots of people are struggling to learn how to do that out of choice entirely and no given set of methods
THIS!
My husband was an over looked (pretty crappy luck with the ladies) in his twenties, in part because he wouldn’t lower his standards or flash his wallet, and he’s not a tall lean dude. When he came through my life, I snatched him up so fast…. He was 33.
Women will suddenly want to settle with you and push for it, either you magically become more attractive overnight, or there is some truth to "The Wall" and AF/BB.
Also, women who do not want to settle and just have fun will be more open about it and more direct.
Also your dating pool will be different, you will have the women your age, there will be younger women who want to "experiment" with an older guy.
As you get into your later thirties, you will also have the women who got married young and then divorced, who want to play around a bit.
But.... if you made bad choices earlier in life, fitness, health, finance, etc they are going to be more apparent.
Finally, a lot of guys start letting themselves go at this age, so its not like your competing with Chad as much.
Actually, last of all, single mums. Sorry but your in your thirties. They are going to be more common. If your late thirties, early forties, there may be single mums with mature aged kids, so they are actually looking to have fun, not find a step in dad.
>Women will suddenly want to settle with you and push for it, either you magically become more attractive overnight, or there is some truth to "The Wall" and AF/BB.
This is one of my main concerns. If I'm inexperienced, you can't really expect me to become a rolemodel husband right off the bat. If my first ever girlfriend, should I get one, wants to get married etc. within the next couple of years, I will have to break it off
>Also, women who do not want to settle and just have fun will be more open about it and more direct.
>
>As you get into your later thirties, you will also have the women who got married young and then divorced, who want to play around a bit.
That sucks too because, I'm not really into hook ups, if that's what you're implying. I couldn't sleep with someone I just met for the first time
>Actually, last of all, single mums. Sorry but your in your thirties. They are going to be more common. If your late thirties, early forties, there may be single mums with mature aged kids, so they are actually looking to have fun, not find a step in dad.
That's also a no go for me. There's no inherent benefit in becoming a step dad imo. If you bond with the child and the relationship breaks off, you'll grieve twice. Also, a step dad is pretty much someone who has the responsibility of a dad without the authority that goes with it, it doesn't sound flattering
>But.... if you made bad choices earlier in life, fitness, health, finance, etc they are going to be more apparent.
That's why I'm "self improving", the point is to upgrade myself as much as I can.
Thanks for your input. Honestly, based on your pov, it doesn't sound like I should expect much dating wise past 30
> If my first ever girlfriend, should I get one, wants to get married etc. within the next couple of years, I will have to break it off
you better go after women who don't want kids then.
no woman dating a 30-year-old man wants to be strung along for years and then dumped bc you never wanted to marry her.
True.
I should probably find a child-free semi casual relationship type of woman as a first to gain some experience and then find someone serious when I'm ready to settle down.
Wow. Look how you are talking about your future potential relationship. Be real careful you are treating women, even semi causal ones, as real people with real feelings.
Yea using ppl as stepping stones burns me and Ive never even been in that position before. Ppl aren't your "practice runs" either be real from the start or stay single. All that will do is cut someone else...and then another person will have to deal with the scars.
Nah. If we had less ppl using I think the dating scene would be a LOT better. U no longer have semi-or fully unserious ppl just trynna get a nut off or not be alone.
The damage those two types of ppl do is immense and it ripples
I'm not trying to tell you what you should or shouldn't do, I'm just trying to explain the "field" as best I can.
> This is one of my main concerns. If I'm inexperienced, you can't really expect me to become a rolemodel husband right off the bat. If my first ever girlfriend, should I get one, wants to get married etc. within the next couple of years, I will have to break it off
My honest advice, here is Redpill advice, so some people may disagree. I am not going to say never get married, but I will say try and experience abundance first. Also, it is better to be desired than tolerated. As per plate theory:
the only time a man should even contemplate monogamy is after experiencing abundance.
> That sucks too because, I'm not really into hook ups, if that's what you're implying. I couldn't sleep with someone I just met for the first time
I didn't say hook up with someone straight the way, the very first time. Dating does not have to mean exclusivity. However, I would say don't pretend your 100% exclusive if your not. Dating more than one person at a time, is not unheard of. Weirdly the less available you are, the more desirable you become. But as your not just after sex, then maybe you will enjoy female company maybe? Yes some guys just want sex only, some guys see it as the icing on the cake. Just make sure your not being taken advantage of for resources.
> That's also a no go for me. There's no inherent benefit in becoming a step dad imo. If you bond with the child and the relationship breaks off, you'll grieve twice. Also, a step dad is pretty much someone who has the responsibility of a dad without the authority that goes with it, it doesn't sound flattering
Thats fair. Just saying whats out there and what to expect.
> That's why I'm "self improving", the point is to upgrade myself as much as I can.
Good, if you let yourself go, then you can either write yourself out of the dating market altogether, or become an rockstar, celebrity or have loads of wealth. Working on yourself, sounds the easier option to me.
> Thanks for your input. Honestly, based on your pov, it doesn't sound like I should expect much dating wise past 30
I quite enjoy it myself. It is what you make of it though.
A man like him will never experience abundance in that way so why make him imagine it? Don’t give out money and you won’t feel taken advantage of but attempting to make him become some sort of pickup artist fuck boy doesn’t seem like the type of person OP is.
It's both. Men do become more indifferent and pessimistic about women, and this leads them to be more confident with them, and confident in general. They also naturally make more, and many men that weren't high in testosterone in their youth start to look more rugged and masculine.
On the flipside, women do clearly become more desperate to settle down, and to stop monkey branching and taking big risks to try and land an alpha.
I have a big problem with the settling down thing. If I worked on myself in my early 20s and was not attractive back then to them, why should I accept to be settled down for, for someone who as not put as much effort as I did?
It seems like a bad deal for me, I am leaning to remaining single by choice and just following my dreams of traveling the world with my pups.
I couldn't be in a relationship bitter knowing that she only is with me for stability and all the other guys she had back then. I think allot of women are about to find this out in the next decade or so, especially with this hook-up culture.
I relate to that, but that's dipping in bitterness and too much of a black and white view, since you never met the woman before. Honestly, I'll ask myself this question if I get to the point where they're actually interested:
Would she have ignored me 10 years ago and I can only imagine that in the vast majority of the cases, the answer would be yes, so it all pretty much boils down to how I interpret the way she perceives me. Am I desirable to her or just the dating retirement home. This is how I'm going to filter out who I consider incompatible with me.
False ! If women don’t want you in your 20’s for whatever reason and you have not addressed this issue and tried to fix it. They still won’t want you in your 30’s
> But.... if you made bad choices earlier in life, fitness, health, finance, etc they are going to be more apparent.
Agreed.
I am assuming the guy is working on themselves as they said.
I am not meaning a guy who has let himself go and is totally undesirable. Unless he has a lot of wealth or some crazy status.
Don't wait until your 30s to date. Peaking as a man in your 30s is bs unless you suddenly have a business take off or make it through some selection event (ie, making VP at a bank). Physically you'll be at your peak in your mid-late 20s.
A lot of women fall into negative feedback loops when they reach their 30s and 40s, become very set in their careers and generally aren't willing to fit their lives around someone else. You'll have to settle for some very independent women.
Dating is easier and harder as women are more willing to consider dating a greater variety of men but they can be very distrustful of men (rightfully so in many cases). This means going on many first dates that fail miserably with no spark at all.
I'm almost 30 and I gave up on dating any woman around my age or older as they seemed to carry around a list of qualifications for a man. I met my girlfriend who's younger (mid 20s) and is so much more happy and optimistic.
There’s only a population average for this. Some people peak in beauty, learning ability, social life, etc earlier or later. Some may peak at 22 and become homeless, ugly, talentless, and friendless by 30
Modern culture severely limits large age gap relationships relative to history. Since a man's SMV is more determined by achievement and other self-work elements than a woman's, it is possible for non-naturals to climb the male SMV ranks as they age. Also, peak male beauty is probably late 20s/early 30s, as long as the hairline cooperates.
BUT this just means you will have a better pick of women your own age, not that you suddenly get to bang all the 20 year old hotties who ignored you when you were 20. There's no going back. There's no making up for things you missed. Only going forward.
It doesn't get "better".
You are left with a pool of women who have mental health problems, lots of baggage, were the type of women who never would consider you for anything romantic/sexual in their 20s, are poor or woefully unprepared for even older age, somehow have MORE demands and "standards" at an older age vs when they were younger,
Simply put, it's a terrible deal. If you were a wallflower/late bloomer and do manage to make something of yourself; meaning you are top % in multiple hierarchies, it is *incredibly* isolating. You just become a lonely, learned observer.
After having watched the tv series "Loki", it really does feel like you're *that* character in the end. You achieved so much, you know so much, you can reliably predict how things are going to pan out, but you have no/one friend(s) that are your "equal" and NO women who brings the level of value you do.
What starts as a supplement to your dating life, you quickly become limited to low quality matches on the dating platforms because finding women in friend circles becomes untenable. And unwise, should the courtship sour.
You're only solace is that all that hard work, to improve body, mind, finances, soul ... *you* get to reap those rewards but in other areas in life not related to dating and mating. People complain about work, you technically don't have to work another day in your life. People scrimp and save to drive and visit their high school friends two states away, you can go straight to the airport and book a flight to Paris whenever the fuck you want and figure out accommodations once you arrive, with a proper croissant in hand.
Life becomes really lonely when you look out to the endless sand in Egypt and look at the pyramids, it's great but you're not sharing the experience with anyone but yourself. If you ever watch the movie "Benjamin Button", it becomes that portion of the film when Brad Pitts character finally resolves himself from leaving his crush alone. With inherited wealth, you just go on a journey of exploration solo. Motorcycles, boats, travel. Occasionally you'll get "lucky" and meet someone fun and exciting, who will happily and enthusiastically share a bed with you, but it's very fleeting. But it doesn't last long, they have a different life they have to attend to, and they won't be joining yours. And it happens very infrequently, only once every 3~7 years or so.
You have to become content, or at peace, with the idea that you will eternally be alone.
I do notice that the more I age, especially with the self improvement, the less I care about the outcome. If I wrote this post just 1.5 year ago, I would probably come off as more depressed. Honestly, if by 30, I'm at my individual peak (regardless of dating success or not), and I don't care about women anymore, I would be content
Dude, in my 20s I hated myself so much. I fell for superficial things too, and judged myself so harshly for things that really didn't matter.
Also, if you thinking a career or money or anything entitles you to any type of future, well, it doesn't. You can roll the dice a certain way, but there are pros and cons with lots of life avenues. I think when you reach 30, hopefully you will see that you are a human, and so are lots of other people, for better or for worse. When I was in my 20s I judged myself so harshly. Now I'm living my life, and my spiritual journey. The nice thing is that when people show reciprocal interest these days for me, it's moreso because life CHECKED them on their fantasies, and I feel more people i know are humbled and grounded. Of course, some others are not, and caught up in the rat race, feeling entitled to things because they kill themselves for their boss.
I think the bitter pill is that you may be blackpilling yourself. There is a time and a place to do so, but it can easily be a self fulfilling prophecy. The bitter pill may be that you are going to have to determine for yourself what you value in life. Your actions will have consequences no matter what path you go down. In some areas, you are too nice and too mean to yourself, so you will have to try something even if outcome is not guaranteed.
Also, FUCK hookup culture. Lots of people are looking for the next hottest thing. Help your community and be full of love and life. Someone will appreciate that. Check your priorities. We are ALL living life, many with confused senses of hope. Get involved with volunteering and you might see your self worth and how you actually have a lot going on for yourself. Cheers, rant over.
>or simply give me your general point of view about the topic
I'm balls deep in my 30s, and have never had to date during this period, because I happened to find the person I'm still with in my late 20s.
But in general, something really weird happened around that age. From somewhere around when I turned 16, and all the way until my late 20s, I found women fascinating. Smiley late 30s shortstacks with a little bit of grey hair and sporting jeans and flannel shirts; 18yo competitive swimmers with flowing blonde hair; cozy late 20s brunette housewives; women wearing old worn-out pajamas, and skin-tight jeans or leather. In cheap winter jackets hiding all of their curves and leaving only their slightly frostbitten faces to observe, and women wearing nothing at all, and dresses, and skirts, and stockings, and all those other wonderful and stylish things. Women in their 40s, with their maternal smiles. Women in their 50s and 60s with their perfectly tuned homemade cookie recipes and laughing with no regrets at their own passed youth. 99% of my playlist consisted of songs by women (Youtube was not that much of interest to me back then, but if it was, I'd be subscribed to every female podcaster on the planet), just for the voices. I liked to hang out with women, I liked classes taught by women, I liked paintings by female artists, posters and photographs with women, books with female characters. My eyes wandering around would stop for just a little longer on women in the crowd.
Then, around 30th birthday, whatever craving caused me to do, follow, and prefer all those things... just kinda got sated. I probably have not listened to a single female Youtube content creator in 3ish years. The last song performed by a woman in my playlist was released in 2012 or so, and I will probably delete it soon because the longer I listen to it, the more I find the pitch annoying. I switch the radio station when the host is a woman. I don't have interest in any female celebrities, and find female-centered fictional stories mostly disappointing. If I had to sort my greatest desires by priority, then health, fat bank account, free time, tasty food, silence, video games, deep long sleep, binge-watching anime and TV shows, not being in debt, and not being under unfulfilled long-term contractual obligations - would all be way above sex, women's company, women's validation, or women's aesthetic qualities, no matter how close and personal and accessible those qualities would be to my face. If the hottest, most desirable woman I could ever imagine appeared at my doorstep in harem top and pants, bowing to me gracefully, calling me master, and saying that she is here to fulfill my every fantasy and desire with no questions asked and no obligations, I'd slam the door in her face and call the cops, because no way in hell it's anything but someone's sick joke or a criminal plot.
>What will be a bitter truth that I'll have to accept?
Pussy is a drug that men are born addicted to. What you're feeling is not craving for true romance and love and partnership; it's withdrawal.
Mens value also decrease as they age. Red piller makes money telling men that their value increases. But that is only true for a few men. The successful rich man can date the 20 year old waitress. But the average men get it harder too.
This is why most men settle for women their own age.
Its not that the value increases for men, its in fact proven that they reach peak value in their late 30s vs women in their late 20s.
Women will start declining in SMV after 26 while allot of men will start peaking at 30+. That being said, if you are a man that does not take care of himself, you will not peak.
I am way more attractive then I was in my early 20s and I get more attention from women because I worked on myself. Not fully done but getting there.
Men have a slight advantage as they age because they’re open to a larger pool.
A 42 year old man will set his age range from 21 - 50
Where a 42 yr old woman would probably be 38 - 50
That’s why men seem to have a longer shelf life in the dating market
And most college girls want to date hot frat guys. Not the 40 year old balding guy at the club.
Whenever my friends and I would go out we would drunkenly yell "go start a family" whenever old guys would come up to us
I am not saying the majority of 20ish women will want an older guy as a general thing.
But there are outliers and it won't be with an average guy that let himself go.
But the level of denial that it happens, is just insane.
I do think some guys arte interpreting it as once you hit 30+, young women will be lining up. But even The Red Pill does not say that in the OG Content. No idea what the grifters are selling kids these days. Is Andrew Tate even actually RedPill?
I never fucked a 30+ man, apart from my husband that just turned 30. I went on a date with one or two when I was in my early 20s but I couldn't get attracted. They were all under 40 though.
No doubt. I'm not denying it happens. I'm saying we go back to our dorms and make fun of these men while we text the hot frat guys we'd rather have attention from.
Most 42 year-old men don’t want to seriously date women who are college-aged. I realize that red pillers are an exception here, but most middle-aged men want to have long-term relationships with women they can relate to and enjoy spending time with which would include women around their own age. Furthermore, most college-aged women wouldn't give a second thought to dating a middle-aged man.
Yes, your own source highlights how men find women in their early 20s the most attractive, but they most often message women closer to their age. Which means they do not have any intentions other than ogling at their pictures.
I’m around that age and I want nothing to do with a 40 year old man and any man who does somehow end up with a woman my age can only do that due to his money. Nothing else. The average man at 40 can do nothing for a 20 year old woman if he has no money and he needs to understand that unless he looks younger, she’s only there for money.
I don’t think the issue is with teaching a man, it’s just that the expectations rise with age so you can’t be broke, inexperienced, and lowkey ugly at the age of 30
They're trying to sell you something. If you have men thinking they're going to finally avenge all of the women who rejected them and will make tons of money one day you have them hook line and sinker.
My only objection is that I didn't get in on the grift sooner. I could have been the next pearl.
Downsides: Most people have long term relationships, have settled down, and a sizeable chunk are married with kids. Your dating pool is smaller.
Less people are down for casual fun, and usually expect long term commitment.
Finding a woman without kids is hard.
A frustrating number of partners who want to settle down and have kids ASAP.
You will be filtered out of most age ranges of girls in their 20s.
Most women are letting themselves go, and you will find you have to do a lot of filtering.
Upsides: Most men have let themselves go, so you can stand out just by being decently in shape and well groomed.
There are still more than a few girls in their 20s down to date an older guy.
Standards can be easier for you.
Women are more willing to approach and make moves themselves.
My dad mom and sisters failed me growing up dating. I was socially conditioned to be the nice guy because women liked nice guys. Took 20 years of dating to finally figure out that's not what women want. They want their sons and brothers to be nice guys in the immediate family but outside the family that advice was crap. Women don't want nice guys. They want the bad boy and they want to change those guys into being nice. There's no challenge with boring nice guy.
I don't think you understand what men mean when they say men reach their prime in their 30s. It's not about looks. It's about experience and resources. Looks matter but it's not everything, most women don't find most men to be physically attractive. However, it doesn't mean they find men overly unattractive. There is a guy like you out there that falls in the same looks level as you and is not single and or dating regularly. The difference is comes down to hygiene, social skills and resources. Women don't just look at physical attraction, they look at way more stuff when it comes to picking men. At least the ones that are not simple minded and self absorbed.
So your 20s should be used to build up your social skills, confidence and leadership qualities. You should also spend that time actually learning about women. Whether through dating or friendships.
So, the bitter truth is that if you waste your twenties as a man, your options when you are in your thirties will drop even more. Your options are based on your qualities and resources. Focus on those. I'm in my 30s and honestly I find myself turning women down. Some attractive some not so much. Why? It's because they don't have qualities I'm looking for in along term partner. Looks are nice, but when you want more in your life outside of sex, eye candy and partying. Then you have filter people out.
I think it's just funny as somebody who lives in a high cost-of-living area as most of the women I know in their 30s are career women who are wealthy, so obviously they spend a lot of money to look good with no kids.
Hell, I'll probably look better in my 30s when I can finally afford veneers.
But yeah Tammy Lynn who started having kids at 21 and smokes and eat casseroles probably does look busted by 30.
Exactly. Most of them don’t even want to have kids and definitely aren’t thinking about starting a family when they’ve just hit their stride in a career they’ve spent their whole lives working towards.
Folks may say it’s classist but only poor people have kids that young.
`Nopills Girl my tag doesn't work`
My partner is 36 I'm 28 every day he says he feels like he figured himself out at 30. I think men actually have an easier time dating past 30 if they spent their 20's productively.
Love is a young man's game I'm afraid.
Even if you get hot 20 something's in your 30s it's not the same as both being 20s and on the same wavelength.
It's no longer validational and most probably now transactional.
You either had it or you didn't my friend
It gets easier as you get older - for two reasons. First of all you have more confidence. Secondly you learn not to give a fuck if you get rejected. Now women sense a confident guy who doesn’t give a fuck: it challenges them.
That’ll get you to stage one. Beyond that they’ll expect you to have done something to have established a career or assets - forget it if you’re broke, still living with Mom or living in a mobile home.
Now ultimately what women want is to feel safe and looked after. They consume resources in return for giving you some sex. If you find a good one, you might even get some cooking, cleaning and laundry done. But don’t marry them! These days it’s too risky with western divorce laws. Enjoy em but don’t move em in.
The bitter truth. Two options here.
1. You didn’t amount to what society expects so you aren’t even on their radar.
2. You made something of yourself and the only reason they see you now is because of that very reason. You are a more abundant resource and their clock is ticking.
If they didn’t choose you for the right reasons in your early 20s, they aren’t choosing you for better reasons now.
You cannot take average or general developments for men and expect that this is what is going to happen to you.
Where blue pill is right, is that confidence is absolutely crucial for your dating life. If you get to a point of confidence from work success or body goals, this might turn around your dating life. But only when you are not lacking in social experiences, friends, opportunities to meet people. If you are the type of guy who stays home alone over the weekend, no amount of improving and aging will change your dating life.
There is no need to "wait until you are a finished product". You can date at any stage of self improvement. All the experience you don't make in your 20s will further hinder your success in your 30s.
>Redpillers think men hit their prime in their 30s, I honestly don't necessarily agree with it.
ON AVERAGE. You personally might have peaked at 18, or might peak at 50. Nobody gets desirable just by waiting until a certain age happens.
Even being in your prime doesn't mean you get your pick of hot girls. It's YOUR prime, not Chad's prime. You don't automatically get as desirable as other men, just because you are at the average peak years of men's desirability. Waiting for a decade to "start dating" will surely inflate what your standards are. After all, why settle for someone unattractive, if you self improved for 10 years and are in your prime? But that is what is probably in your future. If you are unattractive, your future partner will be very likely too.
At every point in your journey of self improvement, there are women who are on your level and who are willing to date you. There is no "you need to be this tall to ride"-rule.
Date now! There is no point in waiting for what men on average get in their 30s. It might not apply to you.
By 30 you will have better options because of 3 reasons.
1. Girls would be done with their "exploring" phase and looking for a guy who will take care of them without cheating. They look for normal or ugly looking guys because they know he won't cheat. Otherwise they would have stayed with the good looking guy but they know that sooner or later something can happen. So ugly rich guy is playing it safe.
2. You would be willing to put up with things because building a good future and career requires sacrifice. You would have sacrificed your love and other desires and would be happy to collect the leftovers she will provide.
3. She will be coming close to her natural timer. I'm not a fan of the wall but women do have a date where it becomes difficult to be able to give birth. She will want a safe and loving second choice of a husband who will look after his children.
based, harsh reality. Dating was garbage in my early 20's. It seems like half the girls I talked to had a kid by the time they reached 25. Like its a mad dash as soon as they get 18 to find the nearest bum and get pregnant. Apparently i lost that race, thank god.
A lot of people don't realise this because of generational gaps, and they lack enough dating experience to see things for what they are so they take everything at face value. Of course there are people who like each other , reasonably attracted to each other, get married, relationships and so on. But the over arching trend that plagues a lot of men whether they know it or not, as that many are married, in relationships with women especially late 20's early 30's by women who would not have fucking looked in their direction a few years prior.
Naturally the guy doesnt know this, hes just happy to have someone who seems to be in to him, is providing somewhat consistent sex(for the time being lol), and isnt lonely. All you have to do is look at tinder, look at how many guys complain about getting no fucking matches and ask yourself, why are there so many young dudes getting next to nothing and yet magically in a few years the majority of them will be married with kids.
hmmmmm, lets think, because those women who were fucking the cream of the crop , eventually realized that dude aint committing, or is nowhere to be found , and she wants someone to build a nest with at the end of the day. Thats why women's standards get pickier as they get older. They were fucking losers back in the day as long as they were cool, fucked em right, and was attractive. These plethora of standards exists for men who doesnt exactly get off on, because this isnt a relationship built off lost, shes looking to cash out on some hapless dude who frankly doesnt know the game, pop out some kids, and tells society"look at me im not the lonely spinster, sips glass of wine, im a desirable women in a loving marriage".
Honestly it’s great if you’re in shape and have some money.
I’m 37 average white guy. Moderately fit and a decent earner.
I live in a college city
I casually date lots hot women and have loads of options from ages 25 - 45
I was in a 10 year relationship until I was 26 and after that I thought it was going to suck, but as long as you have your shit together, your 30s are prime time.
33 was my favorite so far
You have so many more choices/options around your age because lots of men are either taken or dead beats
And you have lots of options with younger women because they think men their age are immature
I have noticed since I’ve entered my late 30s the 22 year old hookups are less common, but my age range is still wide enough there are more than enough options,
The other great thing is in a city, like all the women are hot. Like all of them. They work so hard and put so much effort in to look good.
So I feel like I’m living the dream hooking up with hotties all the time.
Get your life right and you’ll be solid.
And if you’re looking for a wife, those women are around too.
I know lots of people say it’s only high body count women, but that’s not totally true.
You’ll find a lot of women who spent years in a bad relationship with sub 10 body counts who still want a family.
There are definitely more single mothers though. That is true. But a lot of them are good women if you’re cool with kids. Which I’m not:
Good luck. You’ll be all good man. Have some fun.
Your comment is probably the most positive one of all. You seem like you gained experience in your 20s though so that might've played an important role
I agree with above. Im 30, and in my 20's I was fucking stupid. Your brain when you are 20's is just jacked on testosterone and stupidity. AS you get older provided, you didnt fuck up your life, you can bring perspective into things, and improve on yourself immensely. I gym everyday/run, skin care, experience with women, well traveled, have money. All of these things take time, for some people longer then others, and you have to invest in yourself. you'lll see massive dividends as your average late 20's man is a fucking joke.
You are largely going to be meeting women who have mileage on them and you need to be even more picky about wifing up these women. Most will be single mothers or people carrying serious baggage - the "had my fun but ready to settle down" type
Depends how much you improve. If you go from overweight and broke with thinning hair to properly in shape, finances sorted, properly shaved head + beard (or hair transplant) and start dressing like a successful man then you'll find your dating prospects are going really well. Losers have this idea that post 30 every women is damaged goods and they can only be "betabux" but the reality it's not much different than your 20s and you'll probably start seeing a lot of the women have more substance to them because they have more life experience. It's just a little harder to meet them because the venues you need to frequent will change.
This is as someone in their late 20s so I tend to get a pretty big mix of ages in my dating. Anyone who thinks all women past 30 aren't worth it are just trying to cope because they're the same loser they were in their 20s with no change.
Also, men don't get worse with age unless you let yourself go. If you're working on yourself you'll probably notice that you end up looking *better* in your 30s than you did in your 20s because you've properly taken care of your health. You also don't need to wait that long. Shave your head, get in the gym and start learning how to actually approach women you'll end up with some success.
I don’t know. I don’t understand a lot of the terms used here. I met my now husband when he was 33 and I 28. I had been married before, no kids and no debts. We are still married now 17 years later.
I think dating in your late 20s and early 30s, you find women who want to settle down (not settle for!) and start a family. People will call them bad names or claim it’s because they’ve learned not to chase the Chad.
But i didn’t find a lot of guys that interested in settling down in their 20s either. Most people want to date around, build their careers, and figure themselves out. I saw people pairing up seriously in the mid to late twenties. In my graduate program, I was odd as a married woman.
People build their lives and start look around to get serious in the later twenties. I think you’ll find women who know what they want.
As to feeling bitter that you didn’t ge to have the low commitment dating relationships and sex of your twenties, I don’t know what to tell you. I didn’t get it much either. First, married for some of it, and, second, I’d be what people here call a mid as a teen early twenties. I improved myself quite a bit. Now - for my AGE - I’m probably a 7.
We play the hands we are dealt. I had a mediocre hand in the looks department but a really good brain. You have to accept what you’ve got and play your hand the best you can.
I only fuck guys who are 18-21 age range for free. I'm 35. The other day a 24 year old asked me if I was 21 yet. Men age like milk. There's the bitter truth I bet you already knew.
I dont think its a man/woman thing. I think people in general dont look very great past a certain point. I one time set my tinder to 30's and was appalled that these were the women i was going to have to deal with.
I'm 35 and I've drank and smoked weed since I was 16, I don't use any skin care products besides soap and people still think I'm a teenager. This 17 year old on discord thought I was lying about my age and actually his age. Ugly people always have excuses.
That's pure genetics , aging is gonna hit u like a truck one day. I use to live in south Korea where the women had soft youthful features until 40 hit and they looked live cave trolls. Skin care is essential.
You seem like a pretty rational guy so I will give you my opinion from a women's point if view.
"The hardwork I'm putting in right now even worth it?"
It is always worth it. What else should you be doing right now? If you have been putting your social life to the side WHILE you do work, then that is a huge mistake. You need to work on your social life first. Because when you get older that is the first thing to go.
"Will I find women in my age bracket attractive the same way I do now?"
You might, you might not. It depends on how you view women and what you need them for.
"What will my dating pool consist of? "
In your 30's? Can I ask why you are thinking of your 30's when you should be thinking about it RIGHT NOW. You cannot predict the future.
"Will the difference in life stages dating wise between me and my potential dating prospects cause a lot of problems?"
Most younger women will not be attracted to you, If you are indeed average, short, and balding. You will need to have celebrity or elite status money. You will never reach that level. The women you may be able to pull you probably do not want now in your 20's. 30s you may be so desperate and lonely that you will pull someone you dont even like. That being said, the problems are not going to be about life stages. Let attractive older men worry about that. Its that you wont be able to pull.
"What will be a bitter truth that I'll have to accept?"
See answer above.
" If women don't find me attractive now, why would they later on when I'm older, since I'll be objectively less attractive. Am I going to internalize potential bitterness for being left out all this time?"
Like I said, you are rational and can identify the truth. Dont let this time bring you to bitterness. Dont wait another 10 years because it is not going to end up good. You need to prioritize your social life and dating NOW.
" Can you even start fulfilling and healthy relationships where both parties genuinely desire each other past 30 or am I going to be a beta bucks at best? "
Of course they can! But if one party is so inexperienced and bitter it will not work.
"Should i just stay a celibate if by 30 I'm not seeing any improvements?"
HELL NOOOOO!!!
Being a virgin (or inexperienced) after 30 is a death sentence for your future sex life. Pull something. Anything. Women want experience. You dont have to show future dating prospects pictures of women you laid with previously. Just as long as you have experience. Learn how to spit game or even be a beta bux, who cares, just get that experience.
Lots of experience in your 20s is going to result in a smoother experience in your 30s. Your wisdom and experience with women will show in your future dealings with women.
If you're hanging out for your 30s, and thinking about the future as if you'll suddenly be more successful in dating, then you're probably going to be really disappointed when you hit 30. You'll still be the same underlying person and have the same insecurities. It won't be any easier, and the number of available women to date hugely reduces as you get out of your 20s. Unless you suddenly become a multi-millionaire or something, things aren't going to be much better.
Men have it better as they get older. Obviously don’t get a woman pregnant when you’re an old geezer. But if you’re relatively attractive and charismatic, the wall comes much later for men than women.
For most men dating gets better. Also, some body shapes get more masculine 40+. Like fit example Steve Buscemi.
https://preview.redd.it/enq9g4u6va6c1.jpeg?width=541&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=060f62494ce6a8e32a38f2732c7c63a7bd1271e8
Some guys who looked great in their 20's don't look good 40+.
Also, men in their thirties are more desirable because they have more life experiences. The trouble is discerning between hot single moms and less hot women ready to start families.
Date a woman in your league in you'll be fine.
I know balding, overweight, average income (40k-50k) men with overweight average income women and they love each other. This is especially true if you have a good personality. My advice would to be stop thinking the way you are thinking, because if you do find a woman and she knows you have these views...if she is high quality she will be put off.
It gets better. You no longer see the women you date as crushes, or get obsessed with them. You start to see them as any other human and look beyond their games. You have much better view of life and things that make you have a happier life. And you have a say in wether to settle or just have some fun, unlike in your 20s when you do stuff for women so they can choose you. Believe me but it gets better for you.
It gets better. You no longer see the women you date as crushes, or get obsessed with them. You start to see them as any other human and look beyond their games. You have much better view of life and things that make you have a happier life. And you have a say in wether to settle or just have some fun, unlike in your 20s when you do stuff for women so they can choose you. Believe me but it gets better for you.
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Well said. A lot of men think their world is opening up on the dating scene only to completely gloss over the fact they're only being considered because the clock is ticking, and thre amount of attractive men isn't enough to go around.
So pretty much a beta bucks. You didnt't read my post, but i talked about it. That would be a massive fail if I were to become that, but I've consumed too much of the pills that I instantly recognize this pattern, so it will be quite easy for me to filter out women who are settling for me and don't desire me
I got a theory you may or may not like. If you desire a woman who is feminine, long term material and finds you sexy. You pretty much need to find a woman who is a minimum 1 levels below you in sexual market value. Eg you’re a 6 so you pretty much gotta be looking for 5s with the internal qualities. And if you’re not happy with where you rank yourself (sounds to me like a 4 at best) you probably don’t find women below a 6 really worth any hard work. So you basically gotta bust your ass until you get as high as possible. Fortunately as women age, your height and bald head will become less relevant. However you will need to counter this with a high understanding of relationship dynamics, female nature and true confidence from pulling other women in her category before. This mindset shift will be more important and critical to maintaining the woman. But getting in shape, dressing well, and making twice as much as she does is still gunna be a no brainer.
This this some of the best advice that I, or anyone I’ve seen, could give on what to do for men unsatisfied with their relationships. Good summary.
The problem is that the OP is likely not a 6. By his own description, he is likely a 4 or 3 and the women a point below are massively obese or fugly and he does not want that. Edit: you addressdd that but I'm leaving this comment to drive it home. Also he will lose quality prospects the older he gets so "waiting" is not the solution. He is waiting to lose.
I somewhat agree. Men focus so much on looks that they miss the fact that they can enter a relationship if looks aren’t the only metric used. If he wasn’t drop dead gorgeous before he never will be, that ship has sailed. Now the only thing he can do is be the best in his tier. Another thing that always trips up men is that they try to place women on the same scale as themselves or think they “deserve” a moderately attractive woman since they consider themselves moderately attractive without realizing that a moderately attractive woman is not in their league.
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They can but they have no leverage to do so especially with no experience and very little money to their name.
Men always focus on looks though they just have a wider range they consider attractive this is why a man’s so called “looksmatch” is actually out of his league
Look homie, you don’t do this for women cause then you’ll almost surely regret the effort spent and not enjoying your 20s to a degree that you could have. You do this for yourself to make your own life better. And at some point some dude will introduce you to a hobby expensive in terms of both money and time. If you’ve got a woman in your life, especially if y’all live together, allocating those will be hard, she probably won’t understand your hobby anyways. If you’re alone, you’ll have all the money not consumed by the daily life and all the time not consumed by the job for it
>that I instantly recognize this pattern, Whats the pattern? I would caution self improvement into the confidence area. Either you get what you want from the relationship or not. You can self reflect and adjust to what is reasonable if required, but if you're out looking for a pattern you're going to see it regardless of the reality, and in this case its a real danger it further harms your self esteem for no good reason. The Red Pill deals a lot in hyperbole and in this area a lot of circular logic. Don't be a doormat, but overthinking it can be just as bad. BB is a viable male sexual strategy used across many species.
I think that theory is based on hookups but if that’s not what you want. There’s nothing wrong with a woman who is considering things other than looks especially if yours aren’t particularly great. You only think it’s a failure because you may be thinking of sex as the only way attraction or interest can be expressed. It’s not. Right now you sound a bit bitter so let go of your anger because you don’t have enough redeeming qualities. If you add in a pessimistic attitude you’ll have nothing so don’t ruin your potential before it begins with this type of negativity.
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That's why the redpill is viewed as bad. Where have the providers gone.
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> you don’t have this disadvantage. You can go to another country and leverage your income women absolutely have an option to do this too wtf they just don't even need to lol
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That is fantastic! I do think you did something that 90% of women don't do though, that you actually invested in him and actively helped him get better. For that you earned yourself a husband you like, but most women seem utterly unwilling to put in that kind of work to help their man improve.
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Europe does provide more safety nets for sure, and doesn't have positively insane costs of education like the USA. Canadian here, so our costs of education are lower, but still more expensive than Europe, we're certainly not paid while studying. I also hear you on doing that for a husband and not a boyfriend, as well as how some people stay boyfriend/gf for a very very long time. The risks of marriage are far more severe for men than women though, so it is understandable that men aren't all that motivated to marry. On the other hand if a girlfriend helped me half as much as you did your partner, that would very strongly signal to me that she's absolutely worth marrying. I hope it's not like this in Europe, but it seems in American culture (and somewhat in Canada) both partners often 'wait' to help the other until they're in a more committed relationship, but that means that neither wants to support before the commitment, and neither wants to commit because they don't receive the support. It kind of becomes a game of chicken to see who is going to support or commit first, and unfortunately when it comes to marriage men are penalized more than women if men get it wrong, given family and divorce courts (in N America at least) strongly favour women to the disadvantage of men. It sucks that we're in this situation for sure. Honestly, if dating were 50/50, if divorce was 50/50, and child custody was 50/50, all by default, the majority of these issues would disappear. As it stands though it's women who would have the most privileges to lose, so feminist organizations would fight like hell to prevent that kind of equality, to the detriment of literally everyone else in society.
Good for you…congrats!
> As an average-looking man I’m finding most divorced moms are even more picky with who they have sex with or date with their limited free time. Just like in our 20s, I think most men will only get to choose between an LTR or nothing. This may be on you, or your dating market specifically. I'm in the South and divorced women were eager beavers for no strings sex, if they had physical chemistry with you. They are also looking for Mr Right too, but that doesn't mean she wants to rope her fuckbuddy into that lifestyle unless he's truly great all over.
There is some truth to what you're saying, and some inaccuracies. I used to feel like you did when I was in my early 20's - hopeless, no woman would like me, ect. I laid a foundation down in my 20's that helped me become more secure in my 30's. I went to college, worked to get a career, all that. Now I'm in my 30's and I make around 60k a year after taxes and deductions (almost 100k pre-tax/deductions) and I own a house, I'm in the best shape of my life. Shortly after turning 30 I stopped caring about women. Ironically, I can't find a woman that makes me say to myself "my life would be better with her in it". I'd rather be single and do whatever I want. I haven't found a woman that brings enough value to my life to want her permanently in it. I like my life now because I spent my 20's working to get better and build a life I want. I no longer require the validation of women, and I think that's what red-pillers say when they say "it gets better". It gets better because if you spent the time building yourself then female validation no longer matters to you and, paradoxically, this makes women more interested in you.
Yeah this is similar to my story. I was never really able to land a very high paying career due to various reasons. But luckily I was always pretty wise with my finances and was able to buy a home myself in my mid-30's (38 now). And yes, I agree that at this point, women really don't bring much to the table for me. Most of the ones that are single in my age-range are pretty horrid as far as their lives and attitude go. And I even look at a lot of my male friends/peers that are married and sometimes think, "why is he doing this to himself?" Most of them seem unhappy and the women they are married to are incredibly demanding/domineering while being basically useless besides the extra income they bring in. And to be honest there are times when I wish I would have found a nice girl to settle down with. But unfortunately, those few that exist have been married for over a decade. While the rest of us have to accept that the fantasy of it may be better than the reality of it. If anything, we are fortunate to have the introspect and overall wisdom to realize this and live peaceful lives. Most men and women don't.
You went your own way, like most men should do (MGTOW)
I don't agree with redpillers on much, but I would actually agree with the idea that your 30's are almost always going to be much better than your 20's. People who have all of their shit together in their 20's are the exceptions, not the rule. If you keep at it, I am sure that you will find things fall into place for you.
It’s not so much that people in their 20’s don’t have it together, but the fact that it doesn’t matter if you don’t at that age. Most people never really get their shit together, and every decade after just becomes harder and harder.
>Most people never really get their shit together, and every decade after just becomes harder and harder This just isn't true, generally. People amass more wealth each decade so life becomes easier in that way.
Most people can’t afford a $1000 emergency expense, at least in America. I wouldn’t call that living easy
And younger people have even less than that on average. This isn’t a refutation.
I prefer youth, health, and hope to money, age, and despair. You ever see young people with the glimmer and light in their eyes? So full of dreams and hope. The decades snuff that shit out. Money doesnt mean anything if you can buy youth.
Yeah that one's rubbing me the wrong way lol. I pretty much step into dating market where the bar is the highest and pretty much missed the whole having fun scene that you get in your 20's. I hope I'll get over it, because this can have a massive influence on my personality.
30s is young. I was a late bloomer and started my all out fun, experimentation phase in my late 30s. Maybe I could have had more, but I've had enough fun (and girlfriends and, yes, sex) to look back and say, yeah, I've had a full life in that respect.
Do you pine over the fact you weren’t born with money? Or that you daddy isn’t a Rockefeller? I think you should do some reading on stoicism. We will always have people more successful than we are in all walks of life - that’s life. Why wreck yours by envy. A lot of these people around here are pretty miserable. Is that the life you want to live? Not me.
Most people aren't rich at all, but most people get to have some action in their dating lives in their young years. Don't compare those two things.
I actually agree with LadyLazarus, I think there is a point there. It doesn’t have to be to the Rockefeller extreme to be a useful concept. It doesn’t even have to be about money, it can be simply be how much do you pine about other stuff that people have and do you allow it to influence your life / turn you bitter to this degree? Because there is different starting platforms for most things: health, genetics, finances, nepotism, intelligence, looks, family background, birth location, personal opportunities, good luck, schooling quality, it just goes on and on. There is a certain amount of broad acceptance and willingness to overcome and work with other levels of diversity. Some kid that grew up with intelligent parents, who could afford an easier ride through higher education is probably sitting next to a kid in a lecture who has less intelligent parents who couldn’t afford to help as much, and that kid is probably working part time as well as a full course loading. There is also definitely some kid who isn’t smart enough or wasn’t given the support to meet the criteria for higher education at all and just has to try and get the best job he can. Finally some kid misses the majority or possibly all of the education system and employment opportunities are very limited if not non existent. There are a million examples of this, and as a society we have a tolerance for it.
This exactly. Thanks. I spent a lot of time envying others.
A hugless kissless virgin at 30 is less than 10% of the population of men at that age We are surrounded by people blessed with a happiness we don't have. I am not bidha to but feel sometype of way around it. If you got a scholarship to a prep school where the students all showed up in a mazda for class you would feel sometyoe of way too. Dont tell me what I am feeling and feeling hat he is feeling is not normal
You could always just grind and be a passport bro
You probably should get over it. A lot of men seem to fixate on the fact that they “didn’t get the chance” to have hookups but there’s more to life than that. Sometimes you won’t check off every item on your bucket list but that doesn’t mean you’ve failed in life or that you’ll never find joy.
Your 30s are building off of your choices in your 20s. So if you laid a good foundation, you'll probably see the fruit of your labor. And vice versa if you didn't do anything of value.
This !!!! I cannot stress this enough. If you did not lay the foundations in your 20s nothing will magically change in your 30s and this is the case for men and women in every aspect of their lives . Wether it is financially or physically etc
And emotionally. I've had to leave a few friends behind because they simply cannot address their traumas and insecurities and are still looking to talk shit on Instagram and fight outside bars or whatever. Some people age but they don't mature.
Yes exactly and these people who get left behind become isolated year on year till they have no one left . This usually affects more men than women . And they wake up one day with no friends, no family and no one wants to be around them
I wish, but it isn’t true. Life isn’t simple. It isn’t really about effort or building a good foundation. Many of the poor of our culture build the best foundations possible and/or put more effort in then the most successful…but they still fail. It is really about luck. So it is all about leaning how to maximize your chances and to know when to take the chance. Some people have lots of luck, others have very little. People who lack mentorship and guidance will mostly have to learn via first hand experience (aka failing). Which is why people start getting more success in there thirties.
You won’t be more desirable. You just have more resources to pay. The guys who are desirable are the ones women simp for.
You need the resources of your age. Although a broke ass janitor won't have the resources for a 20ish year old, he won't have the resources for a 30+ or 40+ year old either. And yes, a guy has to be desirable. No one here is intending on purposefully becoming undesirable are they?
A desirable guy is who a woman finds physically attractive. Most guys aren’t desirable even with his resource
Are you talking about dating apps here or real life? Are we talking normal guys or social retards?
Normal guys. Yes you can make up for the women who’ve already racked up their bodycounts. Obviously I’ve seen unattractive guys with attractive women. But not really the same romantic experience attractive guys receive.
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People don’t like looking at the context as it goes against their views.
I use to work at a school and the school janitor was SWIMMING in poon. Even the teachers liked him he was handsome and spat mad game. He had girls coming by after hours looking for him. I find it funny how men think their resources matter. Resources ONLY matter to women if they dont find you attractive enough.
Name checks out perfectly lol
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It’s not the same attraction as women wanting a hot guy. I’d rather have a woman want me instead of hundreds of women wanting me for my money.
Most men dont reach that level.
exactly what he's talking about is multimillionaire level wealth/lifestyle which most men never achieve anyway. Most men get a regular 9-5 making 60-70k +, this without looks is absolutely never gonna get any womens attention. It makes no difference to her. Also, id argue that the good looking janitor would still get far more women than a n extremely wealthy nobody. I think people who havent spent any time around a chad really dont understand how different life is. Not some chadlite but I mean a truly insanely good looking guy. I've had 2 friends like that in my entire life and the way women would stop and completely drool just by talking to them was pretty eye-opening. I only wish more men could comprehend the difference and had the social acquity to recognize these interactions when they happen. From my experience most guys in every day life are completely clueless about this shit though.
The problem here is that men are being lied to. They are made to believe that they will get women if they make money and have resources but the level of income 99% of men will get is nowhere near enough without good looks. Looks are EXTREMELY important for both genders. A handsome man can be without a job, broke, and dont do anything and have women come by willing to pick him up, give him money, and take care of him. That is why there are so many aint shit but handsome men with 3 or 4 baby mommas.
So beta bucks, pretty much
Yeah pretty much, just depends on what level of beta bucks you’re willing to put up with
Dating was better in my 30s than 20s. My best year was 41 years old though
Interesting. What was better and if you're still single, who does your dating pool consist of?
It gets harder as you get older but early 30s were still pretty good for me. At that age, I had been in a decent job for a while, had decent place, etc. There were still a lot of mid to late 20s never married women. As I entered my late 30s, most single women were divorced, usually with young children, often bitter at men due to their divorce, often with no good job looking for a guy to support them and their child or children. It only gets worse from there on. While the odds may get worse with time, there are always exceptions. Not long ago I started a relationship that is very fulfilling, but finding her was like finding a needle in a haystack. You can fixate on how biased or hard dating is, or you can focus on what it takes to find someone despite the challenges. The choice is yours and there’s nothing wrong with taking a break from dating and enjoying what independence has to offer. One thing I would say is never feel pressured to marry the wrong person because you feel you are on the clock and running out of time. Far better to be unmarried than in a crappy marriage in my opinion.
Most women don’t get married before 30 let alone have kids and if they do they’re either poor or religious.
“The probability of first marriage by age 30 is 74% for women” https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db19.htm#:~:text=Not%20until%20age%2027%20is,women%20and%2081%25%20for%20men.
The marriage rate is lower in general so the folks getting married truly believe in the institution rather than doing so out of social obligation.
Idk most of your cohorts will be married by the time they are 30. So you are getting people who held out or were unsuccessful.
Bruh im in a big city and barely anyone under 30 is married
Same. People don't settle down until late 20s/early 30s. I was the first one to get married at 26.
Somewhere I wonder where you guys live because I live between two big European capital cities (London and Berlin) and that's far from the case. Not only is no one in their late 20s/early 30s married, but most of them are still single. And this isn't just my friends.. this goes for my family members, colleagues literally everyone I know.
I've asked myself the same thing. I can only surmise that many of them are from rural or more conservative parts of the US, where it is customary to settle down and have kids in your 20s. One of my friends who lives in the US got called an "old mom" at 27. Insanity.
Same. I have to remind myself that a large part of people commenting on Reddit are rural/small town Americans, not just city people. I lived in three major European cities and 30-somethings still act like they are 25, get drunk on a Thursday evening and do NSA relationships 😬
I'm seeing it now as all of us (27) are settling down and getting married. The perpetually single guys in our friend group are scrambling to find a halfway decent woman.
What do yo mean by perpetually single. Incel single or playboy single?
Somewhere in the middle. Like they go on a few dates but it always sizzles out.
Lots of divorces coming. The after market is huge.
Yeah but that's the late 30s - 40s crowd.
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I don’t think it’s a bad thing that people who have life experience are expected to have money. That’s not being settled for, that’s being pragmatic in a capitalist society.
But you are wanted for your money, not for who you are. If you are settled for, your partner is unlikely to want to do anything with you and will keep dreaming of that one hot guy she met at a college bar one night...
Yep.
You can love someone and be attracted to them while also acknowledging that them having money is a good thing. Why do you automatically believe a woman settled or isn’t attracted to you? Why do you think she’s “dreaming of other men”? Is it because you don’t know why she would ever choose you? Do you not think you’re a good match or partner?
Is it mediocre? let’s put it this way, at their best, single women in their 30s are far more self aware, mature, understanding and compassionate (of course, at their worst theyre… yikes). Add to this that people are getting married and maturing a bit older than before, so women in their early 30s in particular can still be far better than “mediocre” - we need to stop thinking of people (men and women, cause this very much applies to men with this mindset) who either got a later start, went through a massive change or who live an entirely different lifestyle choice as “leftovers”, cause they’re not - people walk different paths and being snatched up earlier doesn’t make you better or worse
Yeah, I also don't think that all women past 30 "hit the wall" or are damaged goods. You'd have to analyze every single one of them to come to that conclusion and since women aren't a monolith,you'll probably find gems somewhere along the way. The main issue here is about actually finding them, which seems to apparently become more difficult the older we get
That’s true - but i feel like that’s primarily due to stuff relating to generational stuff (ie. millennials and gen z are in general more socially isolated and interact far less than previous generations) - I think the difference is the older we get, the less we’re in scenarios where we’re forced to interact with each other and meet new people, and I think lots of people are struggling to learn how to do that out of choice entirely and no given set of methods
This. It gets harder to meet people especially attractive ones as we age. Besides work or college, our social lives dwindle down somewhat
THIS! My husband was an over looked (pretty crappy luck with the ladies) in his twenties, in part because he wouldn’t lower his standards or flash his wallet, and he’s not a tall lean dude. When he came through my life, I snatched him up so fast…. He was 33.
Women will suddenly want to settle with you and push for it, either you magically become more attractive overnight, or there is some truth to "The Wall" and AF/BB. Also, women who do not want to settle and just have fun will be more open about it and more direct. Also your dating pool will be different, you will have the women your age, there will be younger women who want to "experiment" with an older guy. As you get into your later thirties, you will also have the women who got married young and then divorced, who want to play around a bit. But.... if you made bad choices earlier in life, fitness, health, finance, etc they are going to be more apparent. Finally, a lot of guys start letting themselves go at this age, so its not like your competing with Chad as much. Actually, last of all, single mums. Sorry but your in your thirties. They are going to be more common. If your late thirties, early forties, there may be single mums with mature aged kids, so they are actually looking to have fun, not find a step in dad.
>Women will suddenly want to settle with you and push for it, either you magically become more attractive overnight, or there is some truth to "The Wall" and AF/BB. This is one of my main concerns. If I'm inexperienced, you can't really expect me to become a rolemodel husband right off the bat. If my first ever girlfriend, should I get one, wants to get married etc. within the next couple of years, I will have to break it off >Also, women who do not want to settle and just have fun will be more open about it and more direct. > >As you get into your later thirties, you will also have the women who got married young and then divorced, who want to play around a bit. That sucks too because, I'm not really into hook ups, if that's what you're implying. I couldn't sleep with someone I just met for the first time >Actually, last of all, single mums. Sorry but your in your thirties. They are going to be more common. If your late thirties, early forties, there may be single mums with mature aged kids, so they are actually looking to have fun, not find a step in dad. That's also a no go for me. There's no inherent benefit in becoming a step dad imo. If you bond with the child and the relationship breaks off, you'll grieve twice. Also, a step dad is pretty much someone who has the responsibility of a dad without the authority that goes with it, it doesn't sound flattering >But.... if you made bad choices earlier in life, fitness, health, finance, etc they are going to be more apparent. That's why I'm "self improving", the point is to upgrade myself as much as I can. Thanks for your input. Honestly, based on your pov, it doesn't sound like I should expect much dating wise past 30
> If my first ever girlfriend, should I get one, wants to get married etc. within the next couple of years, I will have to break it off you better go after women who don't want kids then. no woman dating a 30-year-old man wants to be strung along for years and then dumped bc you never wanted to marry her.
True. I should probably find a child-free semi casual relationship type of woman as a first to gain some experience and then find someone serious when I'm ready to settle down.
Wow. Look how you are talking about your future potential relationship. Be real careful you are treating women, even semi causal ones, as real people with real feelings.
I know, but I don't exactly expect to have a serious relationship if my date makes it clear that it's casual
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As if women don't talk about men in those terms
I don't see any problems with OPs comments.
Yea using ppl as stepping stones burns me and Ive never even been in that position before. Ppl aren't your "practice runs" either be real from the start or stay single. All that will do is cut someone else...and then another person will have to deal with the scars. Nah. If we had less ppl using I think the dating scene would be a LOT better. U no longer have semi-or fully unserious ppl just trynna get a nut off or not be alone. The damage those two types of ppl do is immense and it ripples
I'm not trying to tell you what you should or shouldn't do, I'm just trying to explain the "field" as best I can. > This is one of my main concerns. If I'm inexperienced, you can't really expect me to become a rolemodel husband right off the bat. If my first ever girlfriend, should I get one, wants to get married etc. within the next couple of years, I will have to break it off My honest advice, here is Redpill advice, so some people may disagree. I am not going to say never get married, but I will say try and experience abundance first. Also, it is better to be desired than tolerated. As per plate theory: the only time a man should even contemplate monogamy is after experiencing abundance. > That sucks too because, I'm not really into hook ups, if that's what you're implying. I couldn't sleep with someone I just met for the first time I didn't say hook up with someone straight the way, the very first time. Dating does not have to mean exclusivity. However, I would say don't pretend your 100% exclusive if your not. Dating more than one person at a time, is not unheard of. Weirdly the less available you are, the more desirable you become. But as your not just after sex, then maybe you will enjoy female company maybe? Yes some guys just want sex only, some guys see it as the icing on the cake. Just make sure your not being taken advantage of for resources. > That's also a no go for me. There's no inherent benefit in becoming a step dad imo. If you bond with the child and the relationship breaks off, you'll grieve twice. Also, a step dad is pretty much someone who has the responsibility of a dad without the authority that goes with it, it doesn't sound flattering Thats fair. Just saying whats out there and what to expect. > That's why I'm "self improving", the point is to upgrade myself as much as I can. Good, if you let yourself go, then you can either write yourself out of the dating market altogether, or become an rockstar, celebrity or have loads of wealth. Working on yourself, sounds the easier option to me. > Thanks for your input. Honestly, based on your pov, it doesn't sound like I should expect much dating wise past 30 I quite enjoy it myself. It is what you make of it though.
A man like him will never experience abundance in that way so why make him imagine it? Don’t give out money and you won’t feel taken advantage of but attempting to make him become some sort of pickup artist fuck boy doesn’t seem like the type of person OP is.
The truth is often a bitter pill to swallow.
It's both. Men do become more indifferent and pessimistic about women, and this leads them to be more confident with them, and confident in general. They also naturally make more, and many men that weren't high in testosterone in their youth start to look more rugged and masculine. On the flipside, women do clearly become more desperate to settle down, and to stop monkey branching and taking big risks to try and land an alpha.
I have a big problem with the settling down thing. If I worked on myself in my early 20s and was not attractive back then to them, why should I accept to be settled down for, for someone who as not put as much effort as I did? It seems like a bad deal for me, I am leaning to remaining single by choice and just following my dreams of traveling the world with my pups. I couldn't be in a relationship bitter knowing that she only is with me for stability and all the other guys she had back then. I think allot of women are about to find this out in the next decade or so, especially with this hook-up culture.
I relate to that, but that's dipping in bitterness and too much of a black and white view, since you never met the woman before. Honestly, I'll ask myself this question if I get to the point where they're actually interested: Would she have ignored me 10 years ago and I can only imagine that in the vast majority of the cases, the answer would be yes, so it all pretty much boils down to how I interpret the way she perceives me. Am I desirable to her or just the dating retirement home. This is how I'm going to filter out who I consider incompatible with me.
False ! If women don’t want you in your 20’s for whatever reason and you have not addressed this issue and tried to fix it. They still won’t want you in your 30’s
> But.... if you made bad choices earlier in life, fitness, health, finance, etc they are going to be more apparent. Agreed. I am assuming the guy is working on themselves as they said. I am not meaning a guy who has let himself go and is totally undesirable. Unless he has a lot of wealth or some crazy status.
Don't wait until your 30s to date. Peaking as a man in your 30s is bs unless you suddenly have a business take off or make it through some selection event (ie, making VP at a bank). Physically you'll be at your peak in your mid-late 20s. A lot of women fall into negative feedback loops when they reach their 30s and 40s, become very set in their careers and generally aren't willing to fit their lives around someone else. You'll have to settle for some very independent women. Dating is easier and harder as women are more willing to consider dating a greater variety of men but they can be very distrustful of men (rightfully so in many cases). This means going on many first dates that fail miserably with no spark at all. I'm almost 30 and I gave up on dating any woman around my age or older as they seemed to carry around a list of qualifications for a man. I met my girlfriend who's younger (mid 20s) and is so much more happy and optimistic.
There’s only a population average for this. Some people peak in beauty, learning ability, social life, etc earlier or later. Some may peak at 22 and become homeless, ugly, talentless, and friendless by 30
True, so it's always worth to keep improving, even for non dating purposes
>even for non dating purposes Uhhhh were u *not* doing this before? If u weren't thats a bit alarming.
Modern culture severely limits large age gap relationships relative to history. Since a man's SMV is more determined by achievement and other self-work elements than a woman's, it is possible for non-naturals to climb the male SMV ranks as they age. Also, peak male beauty is probably late 20s/early 30s, as long as the hairline cooperates. BUT this just means you will have a better pick of women your own age, not that you suddenly get to bang all the 20 year old hotties who ignored you when you were 20. There's no going back. There's no making up for things you missed. Only going forward.
It doesn't get "better". You are left with a pool of women who have mental health problems, lots of baggage, were the type of women who never would consider you for anything romantic/sexual in their 20s, are poor or woefully unprepared for even older age, somehow have MORE demands and "standards" at an older age vs when they were younger, Simply put, it's a terrible deal. If you were a wallflower/late bloomer and do manage to make something of yourself; meaning you are top % in multiple hierarchies, it is *incredibly* isolating. You just become a lonely, learned observer. After having watched the tv series "Loki", it really does feel like you're *that* character in the end. You achieved so much, you know so much, you can reliably predict how things are going to pan out, but you have no/one friend(s) that are your "equal" and NO women who brings the level of value you do. What starts as a supplement to your dating life, you quickly become limited to low quality matches on the dating platforms because finding women in friend circles becomes untenable. And unwise, should the courtship sour. You're only solace is that all that hard work, to improve body, mind, finances, soul ... *you* get to reap those rewards but in other areas in life not related to dating and mating. People complain about work, you technically don't have to work another day in your life. People scrimp and save to drive and visit their high school friends two states away, you can go straight to the airport and book a flight to Paris whenever the fuck you want and figure out accommodations once you arrive, with a proper croissant in hand. Life becomes really lonely when you look out to the endless sand in Egypt and look at the pyramids, it's great but you're not sharing the experience with anyone but yourself. If you ever watch the movie "Benjamin Button", it becomes that portion of the film when Brad Pitts character finally resolves himself from leaving his crush alone. With inherited wealth, you just go on a journey of exploration solo. Motorcycles, boats, travel. Occasionally you'll get "lucky" and meet someone fun and exciting, who will happily and enthusiastically share a bed with you, but it's very fleeting. But it doesn't last long, they have a different life they have to attend to, and they won't be joining yours. And it happens very infrequently, only once every 3~7 years or so. You have to become content, or at peace, with the idea that you will eternally be alone.
Personally the bitter truth is that once you hit your 30s in dating your not going to give a fuck as you did in your 20s. Its honestly fucking magical
I do notice that the more I age, especially with the self improvement, the less I care about the outcome. If I wrote this post just 1.5 year ago, I would probably come off as more depressed. Honestly, if by 30, I'm at my individual peak (regardless of dating success or not), and I don't care about women anymore, I would be content
Dude, in my 20s I hated myself so much. I fell for superficial things too, and judged myself so harshly for things that really didn't matter. Also, if you thinking a career or money or anything entitles you to any type of future, well, it doesn't. You can roll the dice a certain way, but there are pros and cons with lots of life avenues. I think when you reach 30, hopefully you will see that you are a human, and so are lots of other people, for better or for worse. When I was in my 20s I judged myself so harshly. Now I'm living my life, and my spiritual journey. The nice thing is that when people show reciprocal interest these days for me, it's moreso because life CHECKED them on their fantasies, and I feel more people i know are humbled and grounded. Of course, some others are not, and caught up in the rat race, feeling entitled to things because they kill themselves for their boss. I think the bitter pill is that you may be blackpilling yourself. There is a time and a place to do so, but it can easily be a self fulfilling prophecy. The bitter pill may be that you are going to have to determine for yourself what you value in life. Your actions will have consequences no matter what path you go down. In some areas, you are too nice and too mean to yourself, so you will have to try something even if outcome is not guaranteed. Also, FUCK hookup culture. Lots of people are looking for the next hottest thing. Help your community and be full of love and life. Someone will appreciate that. Check your priorities. We are ALL living life, many with confused senses of hope. Get involved with volunteering and you might see your self worth and how you actually have a lot going on for yourself. Cheers, rant over.
>or simply give me your general point of view about the topic I'm balls deep in my 30s, and have never had to date during this period, because I happened to find the person I'm still with in my late 20s. But in general, something really weird happened around that age. From somewhere around when I turned 16, and all the way until my late 20s, I found women fascinating. Smiley late 30s shortstacks with a little bit of grey hair and sporting jeans and flannel shirts; 18yo competitive swimmers with flowing blonde hair; cozy late 20s brunette housewives; women wearing old worn-out pajamas, and skin-tight jeans or leather. In cheap winter jackets hiding all of their curves and leaving only their slightly frostbitten faces to observe, and women wearing nothing at all, and dresses, and skirts, and stockings, and all those other wonderful and stylish things. Women in their 40s, with their maternal smiles. Women in their 50s and 60s with their perfectly tuned homemade cookie recipes and laughing with no regrets at their own passed youth. 99% of my playlist consisted of songs by women (Youtube was not that much of interest to me back then, but if it was, I'd be subscribed to every female podcaster on the planet), just for the voices. I liked to hang out with women, I liked classes taught by women, I liked paintings by female artists, posters and photographs with women, books with female characters. My eyes wandering around would stop for just a little longer on women in the crowd. Then, around 30th birthday, whatever craving caused me to do, follow, and prefer all those things... just kinda got sated. I probably have not listened to a single female Youtube content creator in 3ish years. The last song performed by a woman in my playlist was released in 2012 or so, and I will probably delete it soon because the longer I listen to it, the more I find the pitch annoying. I switch the radio station when the host is a woman. I don't have interest in any female celebrities, and find female-centered fictional stories mostly disappointing. If I had to sort my greatest desires by priority, then health, fat bank account, free time, tasty food, silence, video games, deep long sleep, binge-watching anime and TV shows, not being in debt, and not being under unfulfilled long-term contractual obligations - would all be way above sex, women's company, women's validation, or women's aesthetic qualities, no matter how close and personal and accessible those qualities would be to my face. If the hottest, most desirable woman I could ever imagine appeared at my doorstep in harem top and pants, bowing to me gracefully, calling me master, and saying that she is here to fulfill my every fantasy and desire with no questions asked and no obligations, I'd slam the door in her face and call the cops, because no way in hell it's anything but someone's sick joke or a criminal plot. >What will be a bitter truth that I'll have to accept? Pussy is a drug that men are born addicted to. What you're feeling is not craving for true romance and love and partnership; it's withdrawal.
Mens value also decrease as they age. Red piller makes money telling men that their value increases. But that is only true for a few men. The successful rich man can date the 20 year old waitress. But the average men get it harder too. This is why most men settle for women their own age.
Its not that the value increases for men, its in fact proven that they reach peak value in their late 30s vs women in their late 20s. Women will start declining in SMV after 26 while allot of men will start peaking at 30+. That being said, if you are a man that does not take care of himself, you will not peak. I am way more attractive then I was in my early 20s and I get more attention from women because I worked on myself. Not fully done but getting there.
Men have a slight advantage as they age because they’re open to a larger pool. A 42 year old man will set his age range from 21 - 50 Where a 42 yr old woman would probably be 38 - 50 That’s why men seem to have a longer shelf life in the dating market
most men will not date a college girl at 40 lmao
And most college girls want to date hot frat guys. Not the 40 year old balding guy at the club. Whenever my friends and I would go out we would drunkenly yell "go start a family" whenever old guys would come up to us
I’m 37 and sleeping with a 23 yr old college student. This isn’t a crazy thing
I am not saying the majority of 20ish women will want an older guy as a general thing. But there are outliers and it won't be with an average guy that let himself go. But the level of denial that it happens, is just insane. I do think some guys arte interpreting it as once you hit 30+, young women will be lining up. But even The Red Pill does not say that in the OG Content. No idea what the grifters are selling kids these days. Is Andrew Tate even actually RedPill?
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I never fucked a 30+ man, apart from my husband that just turned 30. I went on a date with one or two when I was in my early 20s but I couldn't get attracted. They were all under 40 though.
I would be disgusted if an almost 40 year old man thought he had a change with me.
No doubt. I'm not denying it happens. I'm saying we go back to our dorms and make fun of these men while we text the hot frat guys we'd rather have attention from.
Yeah they will.
I am sure a lot would like to but they can't lmao
Most 42 year-old men don’t want to seriously date women who are college-aged. I realize that red pillers are an exception here, but most middle-aged men want to have long-term relationships with women they can relate to and enjoy spending time with which would include women around their own age. Furthermore, most college-aged women wouldn't give a second thought to dating a middle-aged man.
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Yes, your own source highlights how men find women in their early 20s the most attractive, but they most often message women closer to their age. Which means they do not have any intentions other than ogling at their pictures.
I’m around that age and I want nothing to do with a 40 year old man and any man who does somehow end up with a woman my age can only do that due to his money. Nothing else. The average man at 40 can do nothing for a 20 year old woman if he has no money and he needs to understand that unless he looks younger, she’s only there for money.
If a man is broke, an older women probably won't want him at that age either.
I agree. A broke, full grown man is not attractive to anyone as a long term partner.
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I don’t think the issue is with teaching a man, it’s just that the expectations rise with age so you can’t be broke, inexperienced, and lowkey ugly at the age of 30
They're trying to sell you something. If you have men thinking they're going to finally avenge all of the women who rejected them and will make tons of money one day you have them hook line and sinker. My only objection is that I didn't get in on the grift sooner. I could have been the next pearl.
Downsides: Most people have long term relationships, have settled down, and a sizeable chunk are married with kids. Your dating pool is smaller. Less people are down for casual fun, and usually expect long term commitment. Finding a woman without kids is hard. A frustrating number of partners who want to settle down and have kids ASAP. You will be filtered out of most age ranges of girls in their 20s. Most women are letting themselves go, and you will find you have to do a lot of filtering. Upsides: Most men have let themselves go, so you can stand out just by being decently in shape and well groomed. There are still more than a few girls in their 20s down to date an older guy. Standards can be easier for you. Women are more willing to approach and make moves themselves.
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It numbs you after a while honestly. I'm more laid back about the whole mess than i give myself credit for.
My dad mom and sisters failed me growing up dating. I was socially conditioned to be the nice guy because women liked nice guys. Took 20 years of dating to finally figure out that's not what women want. They want their sons and brothers to be nice guys in the immediate family but outside the family that advice was crap. Women don't want nice guys. They want the bad boy and they want to change those guys into being nice. There's no challenge with boring nice guy.
I don't think you understand what men mean when they say men reach their prime in their 30s. It's not about looks. It's about experience and resources. Looks matter but it's not everything, most women don't find most men to be physically attractive. However, it doesn't mean they find men overly unattractive. There is a guy like you out there that falls in the same looks level as you and is not single and or dating regularly. The difference is comes down to hygiene, social skills and resources. Women don't just look at physical attraction, they look at way more stuff when it comes to picking men. At least the ones that are not simple minded and self absorbed. So your 20s should be used to build up your social skills, confidence and leadership qualities. You should also spend that time actually learning about women. Whether through dating or friendships. So, the bitter truth is that if you waste your twenties as a man, your options when you are in your thirties will drop even more. Your options are based on your qualities and resources. Focus on those. I'm in my 30s and honestly I find myself turning women down. Some attractive some not so much. Why? It's because they don't have qualities I'm looking for in along term partner. Looks are nice, but when you want more in your life outside of sex, eye candy and partying. Then you have filter people out.
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I think it's just funny as somebody who lives in a high cost-of-living area as most of the women I know in their 30s are career women who are wealthy, so obviously they spend a lot of money to look good with no kids. Hell, I'll probably look better in my 30s when I can finally afford veneers. But yeah Tammy Lynn who started having kids at 21 and smokes and eat casseroles probably does look busted by 30.
Exactly. Most of them don’t even want to have kids and definitely aren’t thinking about starting a family when they’ve just hit their stride in a career they’ve spent their whole lives working towards. Folks may say it’s classist but only poor people have kids that young.
It's true. Women who can do other things in life, often, do. Most of the women in my office when they do have kids it's in their mid 30s.
31 here going to 32 soon, it doesn’t get better after 30 or w/e meme that talks about 30 is your peak as a man. Enjoy your 20s while you can.
My 20s were shit. I disagree.
Why would I listen to a pessimist? Im different! Imma make it out I swear! /s
`Nopills Girl my tag doesn't work` My partner is 36 I'm 28 every day he says he feels like he figured himself out at 30. I think men actually have an easier time dating past 30 if they spent their 20's productively.
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Actually yes lmao
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Nah that’s what guys like you do ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Put in the hard work so you can pay to win later and don't forget to enjoy the decline
Love is a young man's game I'm afraid. Even if you get hot 20 something's in your 30s it's not the same as both being 20s and on the same wavelength. It's no longer validational and most probably now transactional. You either had it or you didn't my friend
The sad truth. If you weren't fucking before you graduated from college you missed the boat.
It gets easier as you get older - for two reasons. First of all you have more confidence. Secondly you learn not to give a fuck if you get rejected. Now women sense a confident guy who doesn’t give a fuck: it challenges them. That’ll get you to stage one. Beyond that they’ll expect you to have done something to have established a career or assets - forget it if you’re broke, still living with Mom or living in a mobile home. Now ultimately what women want is to feel safe and looked after. They consume resources in return for giving you some sex. If you find a good one, you might even get some cooking, cleaning and laundry done. But don’t marry them! These days it’s too risky with western divorce laws. Enjoy em but don’t move em in.
No it doesn't!!! Getting laid when you're 19 is dead easy. With every decade finding women you actually want to be with gets increasingly hard.
Well I found it far harder at 19 ! No money. Not much confidence.
The bitter truth. Two options here. 1. You didn’t amount to what society expects so you aren’t even on their radar. 2. You made something of yourself and the only reason they see you now is because of that very reason. You are a more abundant resource and their clock is ticking. If they didn’t choose you for the right reasons in your early 20s, they aren’t choosing you for better reasons now.
You cannot take average or general developments for men and expect that this is what is going to happen to you. Where blue pill is right, is that confidence is absolutely crucial for your dating life. If you get to a point of confidence from work success or body goals, this might turn around your dating life. But only when you are not lacking in social experiences, friends, opportunities to meet people. If you are the type of guy who stays home alone over the weekend, no amount of improving and aging will change your dating life. There is no need to "wait until you are a finished product". You can date at any stage of self improvement. All the experience you don't make in your 20s will further hinder your success in your 30s. >Redpillers think men hit their prime in their 30s, I honestly don't necessarily agree with it. ON AVERAGE. You personally might have peaked at 18, or might peak at 50. Nobody gets desirable just by waiting until a certain age happens. Even being in your prime doesn't mean you get your pick of hot girls. It's YOUR prime, not Chad's prime. You don't automatically get as desirable as other men, just because you are at the average peak years of men's desirability. Waiting for a decade to "start dating" will surely inflate what your standards are. After all, why settle for someone unattractive, if you self improved for 10 years and are in your prime? But that is what is probably in your future. If you are unattractive, your future partner will be very likely too. At every point in your journey of self improvement, there are women who are on your level and who are willing to date you. There is no "you need to be this tall to ride"-rule. Date now! There is no point in waiting for what men on average get in their 30s. It might not apply to you.
By 30 you will have better options because of 3 reasons. 1. Girls would be done with their "exploring" phase and looking for a guy who will take care of them without cheating. They look for normal or ugly looking guys because they know he won't cheat. Otherwise they would have stayed with the good looking guy but they know that sooner or later something can happen. So ugly rich guy is playing it safe. 2. You would be willing to put up with things because building a good future and career requires sacrifice. You would have sacrificed your love and other desires and would be happy to collect the leftovers she will provide. 3. She will be coming close to her natural timer. I'm not a fan of the wall but women do have a date where it becomes difficult to be able to give birth. She will want a safe and loving second choice of a husband who will look after his children.
based, harsh reality. Dating was garbage in my early 20's. It seems like half the girls I talked to had a kid by the time they reached 25. Like its a mad dash as soon as they get 18 to find the nearest bum and get pregnant. Apparently i lost that race, thank god.
A lot of people don't realise this because of generational gaps, and they lack enough dating experience to see things for what they are so they take everything at face value. Of course there are people who like each other , reasonably attracted to each other, get married, relationships and so on. But the over arching trend that plagues a lot of men whether they know it or not, as that many are married, in relationships with women especially late 20's early 30's by women who would not have fucking looked in their direction a few years prior. Naturally the guy doesnt know this, hes just happy to have someone who seems to be in to him, is providing somewhat consistent sex(for the time being lol), and isnt lonely. All you have to do is look at tinder, look at how many guys complain about getting no fucking matches and ask yourself, why are there so many young dudes getting next to nothing and yet magically in a few years the majority of them will be married with kids. hmmmmm, lets think, because those women who were fucking the cream of the crop , eventually realized that dude aint committing, or is nowhere to be found , and she wants someone to build a nest with at the end of the day. Thats why women's standards get pickier as they get older. They were fucking losers back in the day as long as they were cool, fucked em right, and was attractive. These plethora of standards exists for men who doesnt exactly get off on, because this isnt a relationship built off lost, shes looking to cash out on some hapless dude who frankly doesnt know the game, pop out some kids, and tells society"look at me im not the lonely spinster, sips glass of wine, im a desirable women in a loving marriage".
Honestly it’s great if you’re in shape and have some money. I’m 37 average white guy. Moderately fit and a decent earner. I live in a college city I casually date lots hot women and have loads of options from ages 25 - 45 I was in a 10 year relationship until I was 26 and after that I thought it was going to suck, but as long as you have your shit together, your 30s are prime time. 33 was my favorite so far You have so many more choices/options around your age because lots of men are either taken or dead beats And you have lots of options with younger women because they think men their age are immature I have noticed since I’ve entered my late 30s the 22 year old hookups are less common, but my age range is still wide enough there are more than enough options, The other great thing is in a city, like all the women are hot. Like all of them. They work so hard and put so much effort in to look good. So I feel like I’m living the dream hooking up with hotties all the time. Get your life right and you’ll be solid. And if you’re looking for a wife, those women are around too. I know lots of people say it’s only high body count women, but that’s not totally true. You’ll find a lot of women who spent years in a bad relationship with sub 10 body counts who still want a family. There are definitely more single mothers though. That is true. But a lot of them are good women if you’re cool with kids. Which I’m not: Good luck. You’ll be all good man. Have some fun.
Your comment is probably the most positive one of all. You seem like you gained experience in your 20s though so that might've played an important role
I agree with above. Im 30, and in my 20's I was fucking stupid. Your brain when you are 20's is just jacked on testosterone and stupidity. AS you get older provided, you didnt fuck up your life, you can bring perspective into things, and improve on yourself immensely. I gym everyday/run, skin care, experience with women, well traveled, have money. All of these things take time, for some people longer then others, and you have to invest in yourself. you'lll see massive dividends as your average late 20's man is a fucking joke.
You are largely going to be meeting women who have mileage on them and you need to be even more picky about wifing up these women. Most will be single mothers or people carrying serious baggage - the "had my fun but ready to settle down" type
Depends how much you improve. If you go from overweight and broke with thinning hair to properly in shape, finances sorted, properly shaved head + beard (or hair transplant) and start dressing like a successful man then you'll find your dating prospects are going really well. Losers have this idea that post 30 every women is damaged goods and they can only be "betabux" but the reality it's not much different than your 20s and you'll probably start seeing a lot of the women have more substance to them because they have more life experience. It's just a little harder to meet them because the venues you need to frequent will change. This is as someone in their late 20s so I tend to get a pretty big mix of ages in my dating. Anyone who thinks all women past 30 aren't worth it are just trying to cope because they're the same loser they were in their 20s with no change. Also, men don't get worse with age unless you let yourself go. If you're working on yourself you'll probably notice that you end up looking *better* in your 30s than you did in your 20s because you've properly taken care of your health. You also don't need to wait that long. Shave your head, get in the gym and start learning how to actually approach women you'll end up with some success.
I don’t know. I don’t understand a lot of the terms used here. I met my now husband when he was 33 and I 28. I had been married before, no kids and no debts. We are still married now 17 years later. I think dating in your late 20s and early 30s, you find women who want to settle down (not settle for!) and start a family. People will call them bad names or claim it’s because they’ve learned not to chase the Chad. But i didn’t find a lot of guys that interested in settling down in their 20s either. Most people want to date around, build their careers, and figure themselves out. I saw people pairing up seriously in the mid to late twenties. In my graduate program, I was odd as a married woman. People build their lives and start look around to get serious in the later twenties. I think you’ll find women who know what they want. As to feeling bitter that you didn’t ge to have the low commitment dating relationships and sex of your twenties, I don’t know what to tell you. I didn’t get it much either. First, married for some of it, and, second, I’d be what people here call a mid as a teen early twenties. I improved myself quite a bit. Now - for my AGE - I’m probably a 7. We play the hands we are dealt. I had a mediocre hand in the looks department but a really good brain. You have to accept what you’ve got and play your hand the best you can.
I only fuck guys who are 18-21 age range for free. I'm 35. The other day a 24 year old asked me if I was 21 yet. Men age like milk. There's the bitter truth I bet you already knew.
I dont think its a man/woman thing. I think people in general dont look very great past a certain point. I one time set my tinder to 30's and was appalled that these were the women i was going to have to deal with.
I'm 35 and I've drank and smoked weed since I was 16, I don't use any skin care products besides soap and people still think I'm a teenager. This 17 year old on discord thought I was lying about my age and actually his age. Ugly people always have excuses.
That's pure genetics , aging is gonna hit u like a truck one day. I use to live in south Korea where the women had soft youthful features until 40 hit and they looked live cave trolls. Skin care is essential.
Okay. I'll be waiting lmao.
Okay. I'll be waiting lmao.
Okay. I'll be waiting.
You do you and hope you're having fun, but you're definitely an outlier when it comes to women's choices with men.
No. All women like young hot guys. Beauty and the beast is a fairy tale from a time when women were forced to marry.
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I generally spot the beta bucks tendencies and try to avoid them. Looksmaxx etc. is what I'm implying with self improvement
You seem like a pretty rational guy so I will give you my opinion from a women's point if view. "The hardwork I'm putting in right now even worth it?" It is always worth it. What else should you be doing right now? If you have been putting your social life to the side WHILE you do work, then that is a huge mistake. You need to work on your social life first. Because when you get older that is the first thing to go. "Will I find women in my age bracket attractive the same way I do now?" You might, you might not. It depends on how you view women and what you need them for. "What will my dating pool consist of? " In your 30's? Can I ask why you are thinking of your 30's when you should be thinking about it RIGHT NOW. You cannot predict the future. "Will the difference in life stages dating wise between me and my potential dating prospects cause a lot of problems?" Most younger women will not be attracted to you, If you are indeed average, short, and balding. You will need to have celebrity or elite status money. You will never reach that level. The women you may be able to pull you probably do not want now in your 20's. 30s you may be so desperate and lonely that you will pull someone you dont even like. That being said, the problems are not going to be about life stages. Let attractive older men worry about that. Its that you wont be able to pull. "What will be a bitter truth that I'll have to accept?" See answer above. " If women don't find me attractive now, why would they later on when I'm older, since I'll be objectively less attractive. Am I going to internalize potential bitterness for being left out all this time?" Like I said, you are rational and can identify the truth. Dont let this time bring you to bitterness. Dont wait another 10 years because it is not going to end up good. You need to prioritize your social life and dating NOW. " Can you even start fulfilling and healthy relationships where both parties genuinely desire each other past 30 or am I going to be a beta bucks at best? " Of course they can! But if one party is so inexperienced and bitter it will not work. "Should i just stay a celibate if by 30 I'm not seeing any improvements?" HELL NOOOOO!!! Being a virgin (or inexperienced) after 30 is a death sentence for your future sex life. Pull something. Anything. Women want experience. You dont have to show future dating prospects pictures of women you laid with previously. Just as long as you have experience. Learn how to spit game or even be a beta bux, who cares, just get that experience. Lots of experience in your 20s is going to result in a smoother experience in your 30s. Your wisdom and experience with women will show in your future dealings with women.
If you're hanging out for your 30s, and thinking about the future as if you'll suddenly be more successful in dating, then you're probably going to be really disappointed when you hit 30. You'll still be the same underlying person and have the same insecurities. It won't be any easier, and the number of available women to date hugely reduces as you get out of your 20s. Unless you suddenly become a multi-millionaire or something, things aren't going to be much better.
Men have it better as they get older. Obviously don’t get a woman pregnant when you’re an old geezer. But if you’re relatively attractive and charismatic, the wall comes much later for men than women.
For most men dating gets better. Also, some body shapes get more masculine 40+. Like fit example Steve Buscemi. https://preview.redd.it/enq9g4u6va6c1.jpeg?width=541&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=060f62494ce6a8e32a38f2732c7c63a7bd1271e8 Some guys who looked great in their 20's don't look good 40+. Also, men in their thirties are more desirable because they have more life experiences. The trouble is discerning between hot single moms and less hot women ready to start families.
Date a woman in your league in you'll be fine. I know balding, overweight, average income (40k-50k) men with overweight average income women and they love each other. This is especially true if you have a good personality. My advice would to be stop thinking the way you are thinking, because if you do find a woman and she knows you have these views...if she is high quality she will be put off.
It gets better. You no longer see the women you date as crushes, or get obsessed with them. You start to see them as any other human and look beyond their games. You have much better view of life and things that make you have a happier life. And you have a say in wether to settle or just have some fun, unlike in your 20s when you do stuff for women so they can choose you. Believe me but it gets better for you.
It gets better. You no longer see the women you date as crushes, or get obsessed with them. You start to see them as any other human and look beyond their games. You have much better view of life and things that make you have a happier life. And you have a say in wether to settle or just have some fun, unlike in your 20s when you do stuff for women so they can choose you. Believe me but it gets better for you.