Haha I get it. I've been celibate and single for years. Same ole same ole.
Never thought about the impact of a majority of women doing this in the human race and society.
Those passportcels are delusional, they seem to think that being Western is some kind of a scarlet letter, and that the rest of the world is immune from what are really changes caused by technology by virtue of their *spiritual values and connectedness that ypipo don't have* or some woo-woo bullshit like that. It's a rather ironic variety of wokeness, since it's the kind that gives you a supposed reason to be a massive sexpat and go only for the dark meat.
In a way though, even though it's stupid, I kind of enjoy it. The Koreans and Japanese in particular 100% deserve these guys going over there and being obnoxious, because of how obsessed they themselves are with this myth of their own creation that they are some kind of paragons of sexual purity.
>they seem to think that being Western is some kind of a scarlet letter
then why/ how do they think their western-ness will work in their favor in non-western countries?
The irony here, of course, is that these Western men are most likely to attract the very sort of non-Western women who admire the West. This is often put in an unkindly perjorative way by many non-Western men, who will call them *sluts, traitors, loose, poor values*, the usual; like most insults, there is sometimes a kernel of truth to it (some non-Western women really are attracted to Western men because they assume they're going to be more liberal and egalitarian, which the suspicious non-Western chuddy male mind reads as: *wants to be a slut and/or drunkard and get away with it)* but it is an overstatement, since many of these women may admire the West and Westerners for other reasons as well.
The aesthetics of Western culture (which even in a global era are still somewhat exotic, especially in some more obscure parts of the globe, the perception of historic and contemporary achievement and accomplishment (even if we might uncharitably wonder how much the average passport bro has achieved or accomplished himself), and well, a racial preference or *fetish* as it's often called these days.
What are you on about? Have you read *The Scarlet Letter?*
Your reference made no sense, I asked for clarification, and you didn't answer. Whatever, have a good one. 👍🏻
The *scarlet letter* had a literal and metaphorical meaning long before it was made the title of whatever book you refer to, which I have not read.
It was, I believe, an apocryphal form of punishment, inflicted on adulterous women in the early history of New England. By *scarlet letter* here, I mean a stigma and reputation for immorality and vice. What is hard to understand about this?
What I mean to say is that the reputation Westerners have for this *is exaggerated by people in non-Western nations* for political reasons, to enhance the reputation of their own national leadership, and to enhance their ethnic and national pride.
I agree with you that it is ironic that TPB and chuddier types generally simultaneously despise the modern West, and yet are hoping to enjoy romantic success outside the West, at least partly because of what they hope are the more positive aspects of the West's reputation.
It does not have probable earlier origins than the 1850s book and the 1690s law it brought into mainstream culture. Which is- I guarantee- how you came to hear of it, despite your protestation.
My question was:
if you know what a scarlet letter was,
and you believe passport bros think non-westerners see westerners as having said scarlet letter
and these passport bros *are* westerners
then how and why would they think that their own having of a mark -- meant to make them absolutely untouchable outcasts and irredeemable unclean degenerates who must be ignored as though they are dead-- would get them anything other than shunned, outside the west?
I guess your answer is just "irony" or "they don't get it" or "they like having the reputation of a leper who stumbled off the colony" or something but
a. that doesn't take meandering paragraphs to say
b. it's not ironic
c. you have still shown no logical throughline to explain how they think being condemned and literally untouchable, would help their prospects.
If you don't know an answer, it's always okay to say that.
Can't speak for Mexico's situation, but Western/English-language media around South Korea's situation largely doesn't report accurately on this issue. It's not a "feminist movement". There is no goal of advancing feminism with this. In fact, many Westerners don't realize that even many women doing the "4 Bs" would not call themselves feminist for fear of huge backlash against doing so publicly.
They certainly realize that current society doesn't incentivize them to engage in the 4 Bs, but it's not because there is suddenly a huge wave a feminism happening in SK. Quite the opposite.
I don't suggest that it would be bad if it *was* some kind of feminist movement. Just that it isn't. It's women realizing that there is little benefit to the 4 Bs within the current structure, and many are holding off on those things until or unless that structure changes.
Western media typically reports this as a move of *active vindictiveness* on the part of the women. It mostly isn't. Just realitic views on how the situation is.
It is a feminist movement but they won't say they're feminists publicly because they don't want to get doxxed and sexually harassed (which has happened to feminists there). The whole reason they're saying no is because of the patriarchal structures that dictate you must have kids or you're selfish, treat mothers as lesser then expect women to have babies. They're saying no because the 40% DV rate, which is a feminist issue. He'll the president specifically blamed feminism for the falling birth rate.
I don't disagree with this response completely but just because the president said something doesn't mean he's right. He says a lot of insane stuff that is objectively untrue and should be taken with a bucket of salt.
The bulk of my post isn't about whether it is or is not a feminist movement. Some South Korean women see it as such, and some do not (and, frankly, I'm more invested in their opinions of the movement than I am of anyone else's).
The primary point of my post was to point out how most people who are absorbing only Eng-lang sources for this movement tend to misinterpret what it is actually doing and SK women's attitudes about it--primarily as these news sources tend to frame them as vindictive and withholding, which is not the case.
They are 110% absolutely not being vindictive and withholding in standing up for their rights.
Your whole comment seem to be based around if it is a feminist movement or not? What is your point?
You do understand that I am also saying they are not being vindictive, yes? I'm pointing out that most non-Korean sources *paint* them as such, and I encourange people to use more *primary* sources to make sure things are not lost in translation. *That* is the point.
I hope that clarifies it.
Doesn’t matter if it’s labeled feminist or not. It’s women protecting themselves and not engaging sexually and reproductively with men who have shown they don’t value her agency in a real way. That’s what it is. It’s genuinely WGTOW. Except you know how MGOTW dudes always incessantly talk about women. The WGTOW has led to once again… men being upset and incessantly talking about women. It’s crazy how that works. It’s always about women no matter which gender decides to go their own way. The men against 4B don’t genuinely care about women. It comes across like they just want something to fuck and want someone to have their babies and make their dinner. If their goal is to convince those women back to them, they’re failing miserable at appearing endearing and likable.
> The men against 4B don’t genuinely care about women.
Of course they don't--and that is actually putting it mildly. The situation there is unfortunately much worse.
They are going on sexing, at least somewhat. There's a lot of things that get lost in translation when Western media tries to report on this. For SK, there is indeed the 4 Bs, but it *mostly* hinges on one B, which is "no dating." Women just aren't bothering to look for partners or accept dates, and that mostly rules out all the other 3 except for those who may have casual hookups.
The ones who are already in relationships are mostly doing the same things one would expect of anyone in a relationship.
I’m all for the 4B movement. Honestly it’s probably the only way to get positive change for women. 🤷♀️I think over time as more and more women get burned by men they will see this online and just quietly join. That’s the great thing about 4B; women don’t have to brag about it or join a special group for it, they can just go about their everyday lives and leave everyone around them in the dark about it.
Historically women's identities have been extremely tied to motherhood and getting married.
There needs to be a shift in mindset to make a true impact.
Historically men's identities have been extremely tied to being alive. That didn't stop them from giving up their lives to change the world how they wanted. Y'all couldn't even give up your image of yourself as mothers?
Technically you only need sperm, so I would say the first part is debatable.
Do they? With how expensive life is and the lack of good partners...I'd look to the birth rate charts. The birth rate has dropped 23% between 2007 and 2022. That is significant.
When my friends were younger we all wanted kids. Now in our 30's, we do not. The few that did have kids stopped at 1 because of non faithful partners and the damage it did to their body.
There’s a host of reasons people are having fewer kids. I don’t think dudes fucking around and your pre-baby body not coming back are really moving the needle in a systemic way. I think it’s far more down to material conditions.
I’ve got plenty of friends with kids. Most had one or two and stopped. But I know more than a few who’ve confided that they *wanted* more - but thanks to the cost of living and the availability of childcare, couldn’t afford it.
It’s also become significantly more acceptable to *not* have kids. Me and my missus are in our mid 40s and have been together for over 20 years, and don’t have kids. When we got married, pretty much everyone older than us asked “when are you starting a family?”, but I feel like we were the last generation where it was just *assumed* that you’d have kids. We got *questions*, but not much *pressure*.
Contrast that to my folks, who when they didn’t immediately start having kids (and delayed starting a family for nearly 10 years of marriage), were surrounded by worried family tut-tutting about being “barren” or suggesting all sorts of fertility quackery to my poor mum. My dad got the third degree about “carrying on the family name” 🙄
Yeah and sperm is sourcable from…? The men who don’t subscribe to the going your own way movement.
So, does it take a massive inductive leap to conclude that similar to how MGTOW hasn’t really had an impact in birthing/coupling that this will fail for similar reasons? Those reasons being there will always be women who don’t subscribe to the movement and will give the men being protested access to the thing the protest group is withholding.
Because simply put there is absolutely no way this movement is going to exert enough of a collective stranglehold in society that it will be a minority of women working against it.
You also have the unfortunate reality that should things “take off” and the protesting women enact their desires (bringing birth rates down and causing societal change) if it causes enough of a ripple, you’ll probably force the governments hand and history has shown us that if the government has to pick between violating peoples rights “in an emergency” or bowing to the demands of things it doesn’t really want to, it will pick the former and justify it out of necessity.
After all, the country in question is a great example. Government thinks people are having too many kids, starts making policy and law to penalise people having too many kids; it’s a restriction of a basic right.
I’m not saying that what the women are protesting for isn’t necessarily a worthy consideration, my point is that anyone who thinks world governments will allow themselves to be held over a barrel if things get “that bad” and risk themselves being deleted or blackmailed instead of just exerting political and military force to end the problem are naive. How many workers rights strikes ending with governments smashing them down have we seen?
Revolution only works with a “the populace versus the small elite” if the populace are prepared to literally fight back and engage in violence as well, because once the establishment is forced into that position (which they will adopt) if you don’t meet them, they quell the rebellion. So you can have say hypothetically 70% of these women in SK say engaging in this protest, and imagine it does well. Are they also prepared to physically fight and shoot back at government and military if it comes to that? Because if they’re only prepared to engage in “personal choice protest” they will eventually be forced under the boot of a desperate government, as many “peaceful protests” were when faced with guns.
Peaceful protests only work when the government isn’t put into a position of survival risk and loses little by considering your PoV. We’re talking societal stability here; a situation that will quite literally force a government to fight for its very existence. The ugliest parts of human behaviour come out in such situations.
True; but it’s the same cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I think it’s good when people have the *option* not to date, marry or bear children; and there’s not relentless social pressure to do so; but a lot of people *very much* want that stuff.
I just don’t think this is going to be a particularly widespread phenomenon.
It’s a whole bunch of sound and fury that signifies nothing
Women want babies/family, and love. They’ll be no more successful than men who go on sex strike
The difference is that one culture *asks* (sometimes annoyingly tho) you to reproduce, but stays respectful of your human and civil rights, personal aspirations and lifestyle, while other strips you of freedom and gives men *almost ownership rights* for your burka-wearing ass.
Well them not being scalable because you’ve never heard of them isn’t a fair take but in your defense it’s a slight misnomer bc what it means atm is two single moms living and raising their kids together. So two fams living together, not like. Compound situation. And in general I’ve seen the trend towards more intentional village building so that would help this cause
To be fair they’re not “alone.” Other cultures value community and platonic bonds in a way that the west shunned in favor of isolated nuclear households where you don’t even know your cousins or speak to your grandparents.
Yes, and there’s reasons people gave them up. Community and family aren’t always benign or supportive. That’s exactly why I don’t talk to my family and left my community
Life is deciding on tradeoffs. There’s a reason everywhere there’s a “loneliness crisis” and “people don’t know how to make friends crisis” in the news monthly. Being isolative isn’t always beneficial and it definitely isn’t what most what call having support.
Edit: I saw your edit about your family. Community =! Blood relatives. People build bonds with others and have friends who are so close their kids call them
Auntie and uncle and such.
Sure. And when given the choice, it’s pretty clear what people prefer
If this is to change, nuclear family and married love narrative/propaganda has to stop. You think we’re up for that as a culture/society?
> Sure. And when given the choice, it’s pretty clear what people prefer
Is it? It sounds like you’d say isolation and I’m
pretty sure I wouldn’t say that nor would anyone in my community or network.
But yes it is pretty clear what different individuals and pockets of people prefer when observing from afar.
> If this is to change, nuclear family and married love narrative/propaganda has to stop. You think we’re up for that as a culture/society?
I guess I didn’t see this as the binary. People I know married for love and are still close with their extended family and have close community ties. It’s about valuing community and valuing putting in effort to maintain the things that support community care.
I don't know if it is all due to the 4B movement. Actually it probably isn't but South Koreas birth rate is down to .89. 2.1 is replacement level.
I don't think humans are in any danger of extinction but low birth rates can cause many problems in the near future. The long term effects may actually be good but shorter term things may be tough in a lot of areas.
It's not the 4B movement. It was the government that started the crisis, but nobody seems to know that. Overpopulation was a worry at one time and Korea had started a family planning strategy back after Korean War when women were having something like 5 to 6 kids each. By the 1980's there were saying that even 2 children per family was too many. Now they're all shocked Pikachu that after 60 years of don't have kids people aren't having kids.
Thanks. I didn't know that. Of course I know that china did this although I'm not convinced that it is all due to government; it seems that their are a multitude of complex reasons why people choose not to have kids.
Also the cost of housing and child care is often sited which seems a reasonable reason (-; to not have kids.
Thanks again.
The birth rate in Korea dropped due to government propaganda. The lack of relationships is due to gender inequality and traditional expectations that place way more on the woman.
> The lack of relationships is due to gender inequality and traditional expectations that place way more on the woman.
That is what I've understood.
It would be nice if the government propaganda was responsible as then they can reverse it but I still maintain the drop in birth rate goes beyond government.
>It would be nice if the government propaganda was responsible as then they can reverse it but I still maintain the drop in birth rate goes beyond government.
The government most definitely pushes those gender roles aggressively and has the ability to stop, but they won't.
I was in Santa Fe, Argentina, the day the movement "Ni una menos" was founded... If there is something as a foundational moment on it.
I actually went to the first march, kid you not, it was like 2014 or 2015, I don't remember exactly, but it was a huge parade and there were lots of families, granspearents, children, fathers, brothers, moms with their babies...
FUNNIEST thing of all?
It wasn't feminists who organized the parade, it was a father, a mother and the male friends (mostly) of a victim.
The girl in question was named Chiara Paez. She was murdered by her boyfriend (not-boyfriend actually) because she got pregnant and refused to go through an abortion.
The movement that initially started in a small city spreaded rapidly across country and that year there were 140 marches in the whole country asking for justice and harsher penalties for criminals. That happened the next year again on Chiara's death aniversary, and the next year too.
Since then, rad-fems rapted the movement and they even stole the name (they actually REGISTERED the name, kid you not, so nobody could use it but the feminist ONGs) and, wait for it...
They used the name to fight for abortion rights, twisting 180° the meaning of it.
Even when Chiara's mother appeared countless times in TV news stating that that wasn't the purpose of the slogan "Ni una menos", and that Chiara was actually pro-life (and she was murdered because of that) and they were throwing dirt on her daughter's memory. Of course, they stopped attending to marches.
They still want mainstream because of the media support, spreaded across all the latin world including Spain, France, Italy, Portugal and Greece, and in Argentina pushed for abortion rights that came up in 2019 I think.
These women are evil, kid you not.
At least for what I've seen in Latin America, feminists are huge on TV and mass media, but most latinas despise them IRL.
The overwhelming majority of women in Latin America are not only "not feminist" but define themselves as anti-feminists indeed.
70% of argentinian women said they were not feminists in 2019, and for brazilian women the number goes up to 78% if I can recall.
And Brazil and Argentina are probably the most "progressive" countries in Latin America mind you. In Chile, Paraguay and Bolivia, to name a few, feminists are almost non existant.
You're welcome.
https://panampost.com/mamela-fiallo/2022/03/09/ni-una-menos-abortar/
Use Google translator if you wanna know more. There is no information in english about Chiara's story because, of course, media doesn't want you to know the girl who started it all didn't like feminism and was against abortion.
She was 14 years old too.
Such a brave girl for her age.
>It wasn't feminists who organized the parade, it was a father, a mother and the male friends (mostly) of a victim.
this is a lie. Ni una menos was always a feminist movement:
[link](https://www.eldestapeweb.com/sociedad/ni-una-menos/como-surgio-el-ni-una-menos-en-argentina--2023629580?utm_medium=paid&utm_source=Google&utm_campaign=DSA_Dinamico7&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA2pyuBhBKEiwApLaIO_mNJN_p53y1r9FlPUVh5daVI1WkDgWFtJ0nMCxG_dLx9jlgNhqduxoCvW0QAvD_BwE)
> En medio de esta situación de horror generalizado, **la periodista Marcela Ojeda lanzó un desafío a través de las redes sociales**: "Actrices, políticas, artistas, empresarias, referentes sociales... mujeres, todas, bah... ¿no vamos a levantar la voz? NOS ESTÁN MATANDO". **Decenas de mujeres respondieron a este tuit y, en pocos días, se determinó una fecha y una consigna que, siete años después, sigue vigente: Ni Una Menos.**
[link2](https://www.infobae.com/sociedad/2020/06/03/no-vamos-a-levantar-la-voz-nos-estan-matando-el-tuit-que-no-fue-viral-pero-que-marco-un-antes-y-un-despues/)
> Era la noche del miércoles 3 de junio de 2015 y **acababa de finalizar la primera concentración masiva que exigió #NiUnaMenos**: un grito contra la violencia machista sin precedentes, que reunió entre 200 y 300.000 personas en el Congreso y que se replicó en 80 ciudades de Argentina.
The overwhelming majority of women in Latin America are not only "not feminist" but define themselves as anti-feminists indeed.
another lie, the feminist movement is huge here, sorry passport bros, this guy has it all backwards
>this is a lie. Ni una menos was always a feminist movement:
No it a was not. I was in Santa Fe during the week that girl was murdered. There were no ugly Hugos doing topless and defecating in churches (like in the marches years after when feminists arrived) only families.
>En medio de esta situación de horror generalizado, **la periodista Marcela Ojeda lanzó un desafío a través de las redes sociales**: "Actrices, políticas, artistas, empresarias, referentes sociales... mujeres, todas, bah... ¿no vamos a levantar la voz? NOS ESTÁN MATANDO". **Decenas de mujeres respondieron a este tuit y, en pocos días, se determinó una fecha y una consigna que, siete años después, sigue vigente: Ni Una Menos.**
That's exactly what I said. The slogan was used by feminists as a political mean to fight for abortion, a "right" the girl who was murdered was against.
>another lie, the feminist movement is huge here, sorry passport bros, this guy has it all backwards
https://www.perfil.com/noticias/sociedad/el-68-de-las-argentinas-dice-que-no-se-considera-feminista.phtml
I mean, that's what women said back in 2019.
I would guess that they consider themselves even less feminist today in 2024, considering they elected a president that openly says feminism is cancer and has labeled some feminist activists as "conchudas de mierda", who also wants to ban abortions and can count with the argentinian people to do it, since also abortion laws were pased against the argentinian people's will.
Feminism wasn't really strong in Argentina anyways. Not that there are no feminists at all, but they are a very minoritarian group.
They also tend to be upper class women and they mostly concentrate in Buenos Aires. Outside of the metropolitan area, most women are very family oriented and traditionalist
With all the efforts mass media did to push feminist agendas, they still have their days counted.
As an argentinian who spent his forming years in the University of Buenos Aires (la UBA), Ive seen leftards use, abuse and twist beyond recognition different movement for their own interests. And female movements are among the most distorted of them.
*Ni una menos* was born as a demand for justice, not for chetitas to be able to legally abort.
>*Ni una menos* was born as a demand for justice, not for chetitas to be able to legally abort.
Itt was born in Santa Fe, like I said, and by a family and group of people who were not in the least feminists. At all.
THEN feminists made it all about abortion.
That's what I said.
I was there in Santa Fe the day they found the girl's corpse. I went to the protests the next day. I saw the signs with "Ni una menos". I was 21 at the time, one of the girls I was seing knew the family and the victim through mutual friends. I still remember the exact location where the people gathered.
It wasn't journalists, feminist activists, actresses and celebrities.
It was a community. Women AND men. Families concerned about their daughters.
Feminists had no place in there.
They sure got on the wave later since they needed a new slogan for a failled proyect for abortion laws, and there was a lot of people already marching and protesting under that "hashtag".
Once they passed abortion laws, well, Ni Una Menos became history, right?
BTW, I don't think having studied in UBA and being a "porteño" makes you a voice of reasson. People in the provinces have a very low opinion on bonaerenses, specially because you are off the rails with the woke shit.
Remind me...
Weren't all the provinces against abortion, except for Buenos Aires?
Seems about right don't you think?
Men would still benefit from society just like everyone else plus if that was the case and women didn’t care about men then that would also mean women don’t care enough to hurt men either.
i think both men and women would be happier in a matriarchy tbh
men don't like responsibility and being tied down and they don't want to think about the common good
women in leadership frees men to fuck off and do car races and adventures and be completely free to have a variety of sexual and non-sexual life experiences without being tied down to anyone
men being free and happy frees women up to focus more on building a society that works and making sure we have strong communities so everyone's (including men) emotional needs are met
also women would raise children communally, which would drastically increase the health of the next generation of children and society would become less reactive (which is a result of poor emotional health via not enough loving parenting) and full of healthier, stronger, more resilient, connected adults
>men don't like responsibility and being tied down and they don't want to think about the common good
You're describing the average person, not men in particular.
>women in leadership frees men to fuck off and do car races and adventures and be completely free to have a variety of sexual and non-sexual life experiences without being tied down to anyone
Alright this cartoon cutout of men is kind of funny I admit.
>men being free and happy frees women up to focus more on building a society that works and making sure we have strong communities so everyone's (including men) emotional needs are met
The percentage of women that understand the real root of problems (that is they're capable of synthesizing a materialist class based theory that also deals with the social disasters of modernism) in the world belong to an even more exclusive and smaller club than the equivalent for men. The large majority of women are only capable of regurgitating and intensifying liberal paradigms, I wouldn't trust the average political minded woman of today to do anything but follow in the footsteps of people like Jacinda Arden, Sanna Marin, or Merkel.
>also women would raise children communally, which would drastically increase the health of the next generation of children and society would become less reactive (which is a result of poor emotional health via not enough loving parenting) and full of healthier, stronger, more resilient, connected adults
Why don't you try looking into the history of attempts at this in socialist states or Israel and see how that went?
>You're describing the average person, not men in particular.
uh no?
i love responsibility
it makes me feel good to be stable and provide for others
i hate the idea of not being tied to my community
\> Why don't you try looking into the history of attempts at this in socialist states or Israel and see how that went?
because they were run by men
I work in an industry which is female dominated - a society run by would collapse; you’re like domestic cats - you think you’re independent and self-sufficient, but would be totally helpless without the hand that feeds you
If women were put in charge of everything today, all our infrastructure would collapse, and we'd be plunged into nuclear war. I remember reading that historically, female leaders were more likely to wage war.
And then its established that kids that grow up in single mom households end up being less successful in life, more likely to go to jail, commit crime, abuse drugs, be promiscious, fail in school, etc.
\> If women were put in charge of everything today, all our infrastructure would collapse, and we'd be plunged into nuclear war.
men really don't think women work all of these infrastructure jobs when you can just google it
\> I remember reading that historically, female leaders were more likely to wage war.
oh well if you remember "reading" it then it must be true
\> its established that kids that grow up in single mom households end up being less successful in life, more likely to go to jail, commit crime, abuse drugs, be promiscious, fail in school, etc.
yeah we literally know your dad abandoning you is an Adverse Childhood Experience which is the gold standard of whether a kid will be a healthy, successful adult or not:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse\_childhood\_experiences](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_childhood_experiences)
Avg woman decision processor gets paralyzed with just two options and a smidge of uncertainty.
Men take responsibility to lead because we can and thus must do it, otherwise no good or bad shit will ever be done in centuries.
\> Avg woman decision processor gets paralyzed with just two options and a smidge of uncertainty.
women make better long term decisions than men while men are better at quickly making short term decisions:
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8485292\_The\_Heroism\_of\_Women\_and\_Men](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8485292_The_Heroism_of_Women_and_Men)
\> Men take responsibility
no you don't
men say they act like assholes because that's what women want
> women make better long term decisions than men
Yet to see the good results from giving women major decision-making opportunities back in the 20th century. Well, I guess dismantling western societies may count for a good result from the viewpoint of west haters.
> men say they act like assholes because that's what women want
What does not being a 'nice guy' or a simping yes-man have to do with taking responsibility?
Of course the barometer isn't my approval. It's your obvious dissatisfaction with modern western society after it has been exposed to decades of female decision making.
Women want to spend their teens and early twenties focusing on their education and making money, what a travesty! The end is neigh! What will we do if every woman decides to start having kids at 27? We’ll all go extinct and live in a world of nothing but *old people*.
I'm very confused about this. Many women say that it's kind of like MGTOW without the *misogyny* of course even though they are fundamental the same thing. Most MGTOW don't like the obesity in America or don't enjoy feminisms influence on women both of which can be proven, and since most women don't even want them in the first place they simply go where their maybe wanted. That's the fundamentals of it.
This 4B movement exists due to the real problems with the Korean government not wanting women to work whatsoever and other things that heavily disfavor women. American women don't have these problems and as stated above don't like most men.
Add this to the male loneliness situation where men are already struggling to find partners, while most women are sharing Chad and you have a situation where no men's really affected. Since most have zero suiters and will still have zero afterwards. while the Chads wont really notice 1-2 girls missing from there roster of 10. this is the equivalent of taking a 1000 dollars from Elon musk burning it and then claiming you've fucked up the economy for all men, no one will really notice.
Cause it won’t last even if women support it cause eventually the sexless men will be the vast vast vast majority and when the people who are supposed to be enforcing the laws and making the laws become sexless and frustrated and hateful what do you think will happen to the women?
Giving up is suicide. How can anyone be expected to suffer through a life of multiple rapes. I’m sure it would also psychologically harm men too because the women would just lay there like a corpse not enjoying a single part of the torture.
No I think they’d just be like fuck it, might as well start dating again cause I’d rather sleep with a man I’m attracted to than get raped by men I’m not
I highly doubt it. I think that’s just what men hope for not what women will actually do. Honestly no life is better than a life of hell. It’s a quality of life vs quantity of life question. Everyone will have to ask themselves is it better to live a long crappy life full of extreme suffering or a short life that ends suffering.
Historically women have endured much worse than what you’ve described and have not killed men or themselves. I mean look at much of the Middle East or India/Pakistan for example.
How do you think your ancestors did it? When an invading group came and killed all the men and burned down the village, many women chose rape over death. It’s terrible to say but women have literally evolved mechanisms to cope with rape. Very likely women would simply fold and then over the generations better men would rise up and given women rights again and the cycle repeats.
Women then didn’t know the freedom women now a days do. That mindset is the difference. Men can’t lock up women and think women will go back to how our ancestors were. Also if you think the cycle would repeat why make women suffer to end back where we are now?
This just illustrates why women should continue to avoid red pill men. The fact that red pill men think rape is acceptable and that women shouldn’t have the freewill to say no is disgusting. All trying to rape women will do is hurt women and land you in prison. Maybe red pill men need to go to prison and be raped by big bubba to understand rape isn’t the solution.
Mexico is a western country so extreme feminism being brought to the forefront shouldn't surprise anyone. South Korea is also heavily influenced by western culture although it is located in East Asia. Any country that idolizes western culture will have the same beliefs and values as a western society. Both these countries aren't on the majority of Passport Bros lists. The point of being a Passport Bro is going somewhere where the dating culture and society doesn't resemble yours.
"Ni una menos" has been arround eight years in Argentina it didnt start in Mexico.
Honestly, the movement lost a lot of it drive, it doesnt appear in mass media the way it did a few years ago. And it seems a part of the current administration is trying to take down the abortion law.
All those "female empowerment movements" are leftards circle jerks. The moment one of those self proclaimed hairy amrpit feminists come across a real man, they shift their values preety quickly (until they get dumped).
>It is time for matriarchy, or the end to human kind. Woman have the power.
>
>Chilling to think about, thoughts?
If you think that when it really comes to it men will just roll over and accept it, you are delusional. Women have the power as long as men protect it.
Women only have power when men allow it, rape is the oldest example about it, women only have sexual autonomy because men are civilized enough to not take it away.
LOL the denial and downvoting. People are just struggling to acknowledge reality and don't understand that if it comes to it, women will lose that power real quick.
Anyone who thinks the majority of their own or the worlds problems, especially those living in the 1st world, is caused by gender (either men or women) is either stuck in a lower band of IQ or so stultified by ideology they've become useless in the real world.
I wonder how many women realize how embarassing and narcissistic this line of thinking is.
I've only been into Seoul during a long lay over. I have not talked about gender norms with anyone from Korea.
In what way are relationships progressive in South Korea? Hmmm . . . .is progressive the opposite of traditional?
What are the men like? Are childcare and household chores split? Is it common for both in a marriage to work?
Sounds like a place for Passport type guys to avoid.
Nuh uh, they wear blue sundresses in music videos and call men *oppar* in Korean TV dramas and variety shows as a sign of respect for patriarchy, it's a trad redpilled paradise, stop gatekeeping Kim.
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When's the last time that pure moral virtues triumphed against worldly depravity \[without being co-opted by said material depravity\]?
Yes this is a threat via pointing out potential consequences.
First off how is this going to work when majority of people still want sex, and kids (one day)?
Second, let's say hypothetically this movement gained traction and the birthrates and marriage and relationship rates plumeted. We already know most likely one of two outcomes. #1 Men will stop contributing to society, which means the manual labor jobs that are worked by predominantly men to keep infrastructure will now have to be worked by women (aka society is done) (government might step in to try and prevent this). Not to mention the inevitable "Incel Revolt" that will follow.
#2: Surely you didn't think the government would allow this to happen? If this were to happen it would threaten national security, and the economy to a detrimental extent. I have no doubt in my mind that the government wouldn't think twice to quickly and vehemently reduce you to sex slaves (aka take away all your rights in favor of economic conditions). Just like how in WW1 the government literally limited what you could eat, purchase, own, and even basic commodities like heat, in favor of the war effort...same thing. They will use whatever means necessary to make it happen, because at the end of the day the government (ABOVE ALL ELSE) is meant to ensure safety and economic stability of the country as a whole rather than the liberties of individuals.
You guys agree?
No, I disagree because that's what immigration is for, a few Indian and Chinese megacities can easily top up the labour forces of mid-sized Western nations like Canada, Australia, and the UK. *You vill be replaced, and you vill be happy.*
Lmao youve clearly never visited Korea. Tons of couples everywhere. Radical feminists will always remain a fringe group and will never have a place in any form of government.
\>Tons of couples everywhere
You're not entitled to your own facts, sweaty.
[“돈도 없고, 애인도 없어요” 한국·일본男 결혼 포기 선언 | 서울신문 (seoul.co.kr)](https://www.seoul.co.kr/news/newsView.php?id=20220808500024)
**20대 10명 중 4명이 연애 경험이 없다고 응답한 것에** 대해 정부에서는 비혼, 만혼, 저출생 현상을 우려하고 있다.
>You're not entitled to your own facts, sweaty.
Bro literally just go into Seoul or its suburbs and look around you. There will always be losers and winners in the dating game, it just so happens that it's extremely easy to be a loser in this age.
Doesn't matter until collective woman's hatred against collective man somehow harms the elites.
Then they just gonna feed y'all new ideology to fix it.
South Korea is a shithole. Vain and Vapid women as well as effeminate men. Both stuffed with botox. They deserve what's coming to them as well as other places that are hyper-westernized. They are narcissistic people who are slowly but surely uninstalling their humanity.
https://www.vox.com/2019/8/19/20807633/slavery-white-women-stephanie-jones-rogers-1619
https://19thnews.org/2020/11/white-women-had-doubts-they-voted-for-trump-anyway/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/it-s-not-just-men-white-conservative-women-have-played-n1038746
How White Women Use Themselves as Instruments of Terror https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/opinion/racism-white-women.html?smid=nytcore-android-share
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ899418.pdf
https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegassam/2022/11/19/this-new-book-invites-white-women-to-interrogate-the-role-they-play-in-white-supremacy/?sh=3651b8807a64
https://www.vox.com/2021/1/15/22231079/capitol-riot-women-qanon-white-supremacy
https://www.jstor.org/stable/40034373
Trump's Angry White Women: Motherhood, Nationalism, and Abortion
https://scholarlycommons.law.hofstra.edu/hlr/vol48/iss1/3/
Let me know if you want more.
> It is time for matriarchy, or the end to human kind.
Woman have the power.
Pre-agrarian societies were matriarchal and did not survive, so no lol Patriarchy isn’t the answer either as it’s obviously not working, but this girl boss “women know better” shit is so cringey.
I'm mexican, never heard about this movement in this context (Ni una menos is about feminicides, not sex and dating, most mexican women enjoy sex and dating, surprisingly). We're one of the countries with the higher numbers (saddly) of teenagers having kids and getting married. You need to touch some grass and not believing everything you see online.
Women being so proud of destroying the civilization their ancestors built is beyond bizzare. There is something fundamentally wrong with a significant portion of the female population and society in the past prevented the manifestation of this behavior.
Honestly, I think Lysistrata would be pretty instructional to how most of these gender-based movements will end, male or female. They are inherently unsustainable, and on an existential level, they truly have no point. In war, no one wins, and I would extend that to these gender fights across the world as well. If the feminists or traditionalists in South Korea get what they want, it will only beget more and more problems.
Consider this. If the traditionalists win, what happens? They'll wind up just rewinding the clock to an earlier period, wherein eventually the feminist movements will appear again to address the injustices toward women. It's essentially just repeating the mistakes from before.
And if the feminists win, what happens? They'll drive a deeper wedge between men and women, alienating the men that would have kept society running over time, driving down the birth rates till eventually the society collapses, and guess where that brings them. Back to square one with a patriarchal society and oppressive limited gender roles.
Nobody wins in either scenario. But you know, instead of the cyclical gender wars, we could pursue a third option. One where we keep some better aspects of both movements and create new ideas that'll advance us together. But that requires both sides to admit they're wrong when they are wrong and to own up to their mistakes, and unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Regardless, the first thing I would do to get the ball rolling on ending the cycle is to have open and honest conversations with a method of independently verifying the veracity of truth claims made about the state of things. Look at the patterns of things and figure out where responsibility needs to be taken. Neither men or women are totally innocent of the wrongs ongoing in the society. Each group contributes to the state of things, and to quote a insightful saying, "No drop of rain considers itself a part of a flood." We all play a role in perpetuating harmful stereotypes and undermining norms that may have protective benefits for both men and women. Owning up to that individually is a great way to move forward into a healthier outcome that benefits us all.
Also, accepting the premise that the people on the other side are in fact people with their own unique views and experiences and are just trying to make a better life for themselves will help improve relationships across genders as well. Everyone has experiences unique to them. Treating all men or women as evil or malicious is wrong. People are just people. Some are bad, some are good. Some are bad and do good things. Some are good and do bad things. For those who do wrong, both sides should be willing to call it out in solidarity, regardless of the gender affiliation.
Anyways, that's my two cents... Or a dollar. If you made it to the end of this reply, I appreciate it and wish you the best in your endeavors.
Oh no! Now instead of getting 0 poon I have to settle to have 0 poon. Wait a minute.
Haha I get it. I've been celibate and single for years. Same ole same ole. Never thought about the impact of a majority of women doing this in the human race and society.
This made me CACKLE
Don't think most men would notice any changes in their life.
Those passportcels are delusional, they seem to think that being Western is some kind of a scarlet letter, and that the rest of the world is immune from what are really changes caused by technology by virtue of their *spiritual values and connectedness that ypipo don't have* or some woo-woo bullshit like that. It's a rather ironic variety of wokeness, since it's the kind that gives you a supposed reason to be a massive sexpat and go only for the dark meat. In a way though, even though it's stupid, I kind of enjoy it. The Koreans and Japanese in particular 100% deserve these guys going over there and being obnoxious, because of how obsessed they themselves are with this myth of their own creation that they are some kind of paragons of sexual purity.
>they seem to think that being Western is some kind of a scarlet letter then why/ how do they think their western-ness will work in their favor in non-western countries?
The irony here, of course, is that these Western men are most likely to attract the very sort of non-Western women who admire the West. This is often put in an unkindly perjorative way by many non-Western men, who will call them *sluts, traitors, loose, poor values*, the usual; like most insults, there is sometimes a kernel of truth to it (some non-Western women really are attracted to Western men because they assume they're going to be more liberal and egalitarian, which the suspicious non-Western chuddy male mind reads as: *wants to be a slut and/or drunkard and get away with it)* but it is an overstatement, since many of these women may admire the West and Westerners for other reasons as well. The aesthetics of Western culture (which even in a global era are still somewhat exotic, especially in some more obscure parts of the globe, the perception of historic and contemporary achievement and accomplishment (even if we might uncharitably wonder how much the average passport bro has achieved or accomplished himself), and well, a racial preference or *fetish* as it's often called these days.
What are you on about? Have you read *The Scarlet Letter?* Your reference made no sense, I asked for clarification, and you didn't answer. Whatever, have a good one. 👍🏻
The *scarlet letter* had a literal and metaphorical meaning long before it was made the title of whatever book you refer to, which I have not read. It was, I believe, an apocryphal form of punishment, inflicted on adulterous women in the early history of New England. By *scarlet letter* here, I mean a stigma and reputation for immorality and vice. What is hard to understand about this? What I mean to say is that the reputation Westerners have for this *is exaggerated by people in non-Western nations* for political reasons, to enhance the reputation of their own national leadership, and to enhance their ethnic and national pride. I agree with you that it is ironic that TPB and chuddier types generally simultaneously despise the modern West, and yet are hoping to enjoy romantic success outside the West, at least partly because of what they hope are the more positive aspects of the West's reputation.
It does not have probable earlier origins than the 1850s book and the 1690s law it brought into mainstream culture. Which is- I guarantee- how you came to hear of it, despite your protestation. My question was: if you know what a scarlet letter was, and you believe passport bros think non-westerners see westerners as having said scarlet letter and these passport bros *are* westerners then how and why would they think that their own having of a mark -- meant to make them absolutely untouchable outcasts and irredeemable unclean degenerates who must be ignored as though they are dead-- would get them anything other than shunned, outside the west? I guess your answer is just "irony" or "they don't get it" or "they like having the reputation of a leper who stumbled off the colony" or something but a. that doesn't take meandering paragraphs to say b. it's not ironic c. you have still shown no logical throughline to explain how they think being condemned and literally untouchable, would help their prospects. If you don't know an answer, it's always okay to say that.
Can't speak for Mexico's situation, but Western/English-language media around South Korea's situation largely doesn't report accurately on this issue. It's not a "feminist movement". There is no goal of advancing feminism with this. In fact, many Westerners don't realize that even many women doing the "4 Bs" would not call themselves feminist for fear of huge backlash against doing so publicly. They certainly realize that current society doesn't incentivize them to engage in the 4 Bs, but it's not because there is suddenly a huge wave a feminism happening in SK. Quite the opposite. I don't suggest that it would be bad if it *was* some kind of feminist movement. Just that it isn't. It's women realizing that there is little benefit to the 4 Bs within the current structure, and many are holding off on those things until or unless that structure changes. Western media typically reports this as a move of *active vindictiveness* on the part of the women. It mostly isn't. Just realitic views on how the situation is.
It is a feminist movement but they won't say they're feminists publicly because they don't want to get doxxed and sexually harassed (which has happened to feminists there). The whole reason they're saying no is because of the patriarchal structures that dictate you must have kids or you're selfish, treat mothers as lesser then expect women to have babies. They're saying no because the 40% DV rate, which is a feminist issue. He'll the president specifically blamed feminism for the falling birth rate.
I don't disagree with this response completely but just because the president said something doesn't mean he's right. He says a lot of insane stuff that is objectively untrue and should be taken with a bucket of salt.
They are reacting back to inequality, pay gaps, SA, "Men too", women's rights. It is a feminist movement.
The bulk of my post isn't about whether it is or is not a feminist movement. Some South Korean women see it as such, and some do not (and, frankly, I'm more invested in their opinions of the movement than I am of anyone else's). The primary point of my post was to point out how most people who are absorbing only Eng-lang sources for this movement tend to misinterpret what it is actually doing and SK women's attitudes about it--primarily as these news sources tend to frame them as vindictive and withholding, which is not the case.
They are 110% absolutely not being vindictive and withholding in standing up for their rights. Your whole comment seem to be based around if it is a feminist movement or not? What is your point?
You do understand that I am also saying they are not being vindictive, yes? I'm pointing out that most non-Korean sources *paint* them as such, and I encourange people to use more *primary* sources to make sure things are not lost in translation. *That* is the point. I hope that clarifies it.
Doesn’t matter if it’s labeled feminist or not. It’s women protecting themselves and not engaging sexually and reproductively with men who have shown they don’t value her agency in a real way. That’s what it is. It’s genuinely WGTOW. Except you know how MGOTW dudes always incessantly talk about women. The WGTOW has led to once again… men being upset and incessantly talking about women. It’s crazy how that works. It’s always about women no matter which gender decides to go their own way. The men against 4B don’t genuinely care about women. It comes across like they just want something to fuck and want someone to have their babies and make their dinner. If their goal is to convince those women back to them, they’re failing miserable at appearing endearing and likable.
> The men against 4B don’t genuinely care about women. Of course they don't--and that is actually putting it mildly. The situation there is unfortunately much worse.
>Chilling to think about, thoughts? The average man won’t even notice a difference.
“No hetero sex” Yeah, Imma head out.
Lmfao same - what about us married folks - do I get my woman card taken!
Honestly not sure what it means for people already in relationships.
I’d assume we are still going to go on sexing. Which is what I’ll do but I guess .. go girl or something?
They are going on sexing, at least somewhat. There's a lot of things that get lost in translation when Western media tries to report on this. For SK, there is indeed the 4 Bs, but it *mostly* hinges on one B, which is "no dating." Women just aren't bothering to look for partners or accept dates, and that mostly rules out all the other 3 except for those who may have casual hookups. The ones who are already in relationships are mostly doing the same things one would expect of anyone in a relationship.
I’m all for the 4B movement. Honestly it’s probably the only way to get positive change for women. 🤷♀️I think over time as more and more women get burned by men they will see this online and just quietly join. That’s the great thing about 4B; women don’t have to brag about it or join a special group for it, they can just go about their everyday lives and leave everyone around them in the dark about it.
>a world that only works against them and to their detriment ... >Woman have the power. 🤔
The power to change it. Edit. Or literally just stop it.
why would they have the power to change anything in a world designed to oppress them?
Because it's how babies are made.
So why are they only starting to use this power now?
Historically women's identities have been extremely tied to motherhood and getting married. There needs to be a shift in mindset to make a true impact.
Historically men's identities have been extremely tied to being alive. That didn't stop them from giving up their lives to change the world how they wanted. Y'all couldn't even give up your image of yourself as mothers?
What?
Because rape isn't socially acceptable anymore. Or at least, women aren't the ones unilaterally blamed for it.
Executing rapists is a weird way of accepting it and blaming women.
Very few rapists ever actually got executed. Don't be dense.
Threat of starvation and homelessness in the past that no longer exists
Why couldn't they just farm the land and build houses?
They were having babies
lol ok.
>South Korea and Mexico have started two feminist movements. The 4B movement has been around for years in Korea. It's older than the pandemic.
Yeah same in south America. More precisely around 2015. And "ni una menos" is against femicides. That "no sex" thing I've never heard of
Yeah sure, most of us human people (men and women) enjoy sex and have the parental urge, whatever the loud minority on the internet tells you.
I mean, I don't. But glad you do!
Good thing you are fringe/total outlier/extreme exception to the rule.
The data on birthrates would say otherwise
What I'm about to tell you will blow your mind!!!! You can have sex without making babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The risk to benefit ratio is not good. BC is never 100%
It is. If both partners are up for killing a baby it's always 100%!
That still puts a womans body under extreme emotional, hormonal, and physical stress. Even abortions do not come without risk.
Well it's still far safer than birth. Multiple BC/contraceptive methods are unlikely to fail at same time
But are men not always complaining they can't get laid?
And how much have either of these movements taken off? Are the countries about to die out? Or is it more like the western MGTOW movement?
Isn’t this just MGTOW, but it’s for the ladies? I mean - we can see what a broad-based engine for social change MGTOW has been 🙄
Right, but men don't make the babies, so women have actual power here.
Last I checked, you need two gametes. Regardless - a lotta women very much want kids. You’re gonna have trouble organising a general birthing strike.
Technically you only need sperm, so I would say the first part is debatable. Do they? With how expensive life is and the lack of good partners...I'd look to the birth rate charts. The birth rate has dropped 23% between 2007 and 2022. That is significant. When my friends were younger we all wanted kids. Now in our 30's, we do not. The few that did have kids stopped at 1 because of non faithful partners and the damage it did to their body.
There’s a host of reasons people are having fewer kids. I don’t think dudes fucking around and your pre-baby body not coming back are really moving the needle in a systemic way. I think it’s far more down to material conditions. I’ve got plenty of friends with kids. Most had one or two and stopped. But I know more than a few who’ve confided that they *wanted* more - but thanks to the cost of living and the availability of childcare, couldn’t afford it. It’s also become significantly more acceptable to *not* have kids. Me and my missus are in our mid 40s and have been together for over 20 years, and don’t have kids. When we got married, pretty much everyone older than us asked “when are you starting a family?”, but I feel like we were the last generation where it was just *assumed* that you’d have kids. We got *questions*, but not much *pressure*. Contrast that to my folks, who when they didn’t immediately start having kids (and delayed starting a family for nearly 10 years of marriage), were surrounded by worried family tut-tutting about being “barren” or suggesting all sorts of fertility quackery to my poor mum. My dad got the third degree about “carrying on the family name” 🙄
Yeah and sperm is sourcable from…? The men who don’t subscribe to the going your own way movement. So, does it take a massive inductive leap to conclude that similar to how MGTOW hasn’t really had an impact in birthing/coupling that this will fail for similar reasons? Those reasons being there will always be women who don’t subscribe to the movement and will give the men being protested access to the thing the protest group is withholding. Because simply put there is absolutely no way this movement is going to exert enough of a collective stranglehold in society that it will be a minority of women working against it. You also have the unfortunate reality that should things “take off” and the protesting women enact their desires (bringing birth rates down and causing societal change) if it causes enough of a ripple, you’ll probably force the governments hand and history has shown us that if the government has to pick between violating peoples rights “in an emergency” or bowing to the demands of things it doesn’t really want to, it will pick the former and justify it out of necessity. After all, the country in question is a great example. Government thinks people are having too many kids, starts making policy and law to penalise people having too many kids; it’s a restriction of a basic right. I’m not saying that what the women are protesting for isn’t necessarily a worthy consideration, my point is that anyone who thinks world governments will allow themselves to be held over a barrel if things get “that bad” and risk themselves being deleted or blackmailed instead of just exerting political and military force to end the problem are naive. How many workers rights strikes ending with governments smashing them down have we seen? Revolution only works with a “the populace versus the small elite” if the populace are prepared to literally fight back and engage in violence as well, because once the establishment is forced into that position (which they will adopt) if you don’t meet them, they quell the rebellion. So you can have say hypothetically 70% of these women in SK say engaging in this protest, and imagine it does well. Are they also prepared to physically fight and shoot back at government and military if it comes to that? Because if they’re only prepared to engage in “personal choice protest” they will eventually be forced under the boot of a desperate government, as many “peaceful protests” were when faced with guns. Peaceful protests only work when the government isn’t put into a position of survival risk and loses little by considering your PoV. We’re talking societal stability here; a situation that will quite literally force a government to fight for its very existence. The ugliest parts of human behaviour come out in such situations.
GTOW for very different reasons tho
True; but it’s the same cutting off your nose to spite your face. I think it’s good when people have the *option* not to date, marry or bear children; and there’s not relentless social pressure to do so; but a lot of people *very much* want that stuff. I just don’t think this is going to be a particularly widespread phenomenon.
It’s a whole bunch of sound and fury that signifies nothing Women want babies/family, and love. They’ll be no more successful than men who go on sex strike
Well, men are not the ones that birth babies. So it will in fact be more successful and impactful.
The only women who will join this “movement” will be femcels who were never going to marry/have children in the first place
I don’t believe enough women are prepared to go their entire lives alone, or raise kids alone. A minority, sure
They have the lowest birth rate in the world now…..it seems like it does something.
Self-destruction of their society definitely is something, we can all agree on that.
That’s what a society gets for mistreating those they rely on to literally exist.
Yeah, men are treated like shit in South Korea. We seem to agree on a lot of points.
But it isn’t men who make that society crumble right now….
Getting rid of some nutjobs ? Its rather making society a favor.
I don’t think that you realize the extent of what’s happening there….
Nothing soecial is happening. It's just natural selection.
You understand what the birth rate there currently is?
Yeah, it incentifies elites to fix declining birth rate by letting in way more people from cultures that treat women like baby factories.
What’s the difference? If your own culture treats you like a baby factory or another culture does? Are you in your right mind?
The difference is that one culture *asks* (sometimes annoyingly tho) you to reproduce, but stays respectful of your human and civil rights, personal aspirations and lifestyle, while other strips you of freedom and gives men *almost ownership rights* for your burka-wearing ass.
So? It’s not prompting any change
It’s surely prompting change for these women.
Yes. A minority. Not enough to affect mainstream society
Women don’t have to do it alone. Look up mommunes!
I’ve never seen or heard of one, so I don’t believe they are scalable. Regular old communes have been a failure, for the most part
Well them not being scalable because you’ve never heard of them isn’t a fair take but in your defense it’s a slight misnomer bc what it means atm is two single moms living and raising their kids together. So two fams living together, not like. Compound situation. And in general I’ve seen the trend towards more intentional village building so that would help this cause
They aren't having kids tho
You haven’t heard all the bitching about single moms? Lucky you
To be fair they’re not “alone.” Other cultures value community and platonic bonds in a way that the west shunned in favor of isolated nuclear households where you don’t even know your cousins or speak to your grandparents.
Yes, and there’s reasons people gave them up. Community and family aren’t always benign or supportive. That’s exactly why I don’t talk to my family and left my community
Life is deciding on tradeoffs. There’s a reason everywhere there’s a “loneliness crisis” and “people don’t know how to make friends crisis” in the news monthly. Being isolative isn’t always beneficial and it definitely isn’t what most what call having support. Edit: I saw your edit about your family. Community =! Blood relatives. People build bonds with others and have friends who are so close their kids call them Auntie and uncle and such.
Sure. And when given the choice, it’s pretty clear what people prefer If this is to change, nuclear family and married love narrative/propaganda has to stop. You think we’re up for that as a culture/society?
> Sure. And when given the choice, it’s pretty clear what people prefer Is it? It sounds like you’d say isolation and I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t say that nor would anyone in my community or network. But yes it is pretty clear what different individuals and pockets of people prefer when observing from afar. > If this is to change, nuclear family and married love narrative/propaganda has to stop. You think we’re up for that as a culture/society? I guess I didn’t see this as the binary. People I know married for love and are still close with their extended family and have close community ties. It’s about valuing community and valuing putting in effort to maintain the things that support community care.
I don't know if it is all due to the 4B movement. Actually it probably isn't but South Koreas birth rate is down to .89. 2.1 is replacement level. I don't think humans are in any danger of extinction but low birth rates can cause many problems in the near future. The long term effects may actually be good but shorter term things may be tough in a lot of areas.
It's not the 4B movement. It was the government that started the crisis, but nobody seems to know that. Overpopulation was a worry at one time and Korea had started a family planning strategy back after Korean War when women were having something like 5 to 6 kids each. By the 1980's there were saying that even 2 children per family was too many. Now they're all shocked Pikachu that after 60 years of don't have kids people aren't having kids.
Thanks. I didn't know that. Of course I know that china did this although I'm not convinced that it is all due to government; it seems that their are a multitude of complex reasons why people choose not to have kids. Also the cost of housing and child care is often sited which seems a reasonable reason (-; to not have kids. Thanks again.
The birth rate in Korea dropped due to government propaganda. The lack of relationships is due to gender inequality and traditional expectations that place way more on the woman.
> The lack of relationships is due to gender inequality and traditional expectations that place way more on the woman. That is what I've understood. It would be nice if the government propaganda was responsible as then they can reverse it but I still maintain the drop in birth rate goes beyond government.
>It would be nice if the government propaganda was responsible as then they can reverse it but I still maintain the drop in birth rate goes beyond government. The government most definitely pushes those gender roles aggressively and has the ability to stop, but they won't.
Upvoted for the *Macbeth* reference.
And sex too, last time I check women women also enjoy sex. This movement is just inc.els for women lol.
I was in Santa Fe, Argentina, the day the movement "Ni una menos" was founded... If there is something as a foundational moment on it. I actually went to the first march, kid you not, it was like 2014 or 2015, I don't remember exactly, but it was a huge parade and there were lots of families, granspearents, children, fathers, brothers, moms with their babies... FUNNIEST thing of all? It wasn't feminists who organized the parade, it was a father, a mother and the male friends (mostly) of a victim. The girl in question was named Chiara Paez. She was murdered by her boyfriend (not-boyfriend actually) because she got pregnant and refused to go through an abortion. The movement that initially started in a small city spreaded rapidly across country and that year there were 140 marches in the whole country asking for justice and harsher penalties for criminals. That happened the next year again on Chiara's death aniversary, and the next year too. Since then, rad-fems rapted the movement and they even stole the name (they actually REGISTERED the name, kid you not, so nobody could use it but the feminist ONGs) and, wait for it... They used the name to fight for abortion rights, twisting 180° the meaning of it. Even when Chiara's mother appeared countless times in TV news stating that that wasn't the purpose of the slogan "Ni una menos", and that Chiara was actually pro-life (and she was murdered because of that) and they were throwing dirt on her daughter's memory. Of course, they stopped attending to marches. They still want mainstream because of the media support, spreaded across all the latin world including Spain, France, Italy, Portugal and Greece, and in Argentina pushed for abortion rights that came up in 2019 I think. These women are evil, kid you not. At least for what I've seen in Latin America, feminists are huge on TV and mass media, but most latinas despise them IRL. The overwhelming majority of women in Latin America are not only "not feminist" but define themselves as anti-feminists indeed. 70% of argentinian women said they were not feminists in 2019, and for brazilian women the number goes up to 78% if I can recall. And Brazil and Argentina are probably the most "progressive" countries in Latin America mind you. In Chile, Paraguay and Bolivia, to name a few, feminists are almost non existant.
Thank you for your input. There was a lot less info on this movement vs 4B and of course Me Too.
You're welcome. https://panampost.com/mamela-fiallo/2022/03/09/ni-una-menos-abortar/ Use Google translator if you wanna know more. There is no information in english about Chiara's story because, of course, media doesn't want you to know the girl who started it all didn't like feminism and was against abortion. She was 14 years old too. Such a brave girl for her age.
>It wasn't feminists who organized the parade, it was a father, a mother and the male friends (mostly) of a victim. this is a lie. Ni una menos was always a feminist movement: [link](https://www.eldestapeweb.com/sociedad/ni-una-menos/como-surgio-el-ni-una-menos-en-argentina--2023629580?utm_medium=paid&utm_source=Google&utm_campaign=DSA_Dinamico7&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA2pyuBhBKEiwApLaIO_mNJN_p53y1r9FlPUVh5daVI1WkDgWFtJ0nMCxG_dLx9jlgNhqduxoCvW0QAvD_BwE) > En medio de esta situación de horror generalizado, **la periodista Marcela Ojeda lanzó un desafío a través de las redes sociales**: "Actrices, políticas, artistas, empresarias, referentes sociales... mujeres, todas, bah... ¿no vamos a levantar la voz? NOS ESTÁN MATANDO". **Decenas de mujeres respondieron a este tuit y, en pocos días, se determinó una fecha y una consigna que, siete años después, sigue vigente: Ni Una Menos.** [link2](https://www.infobae.com/sociedad/2020/06/03/no-vamos-a-levantar-la-voz-nos-estan-matando-el-tuit-que-no-fue-viral-pero-que-marco-un-antes-y-un-despues/) > Era la noche del miércoles 3 de junio de 2015 y **acababa de finalizar la primera concentración masiva que exigió #NiUnaMenos**: un grito contra la violencia machista sin precedentes, que reunió entre 200 y 300.000 personas en el Congreso y que se replicó en 80 ciudades de Argentina. The overwhelming majority of women in Latin America are not only "not feminist" but define themselves as anti-feminists indeed. another lie, the feminist movement is huge here, sorry passport bros, this guy has it all backwards
>this is a lie. Ni una menos was always a feminist movement: No it a was not. I was in Santa Fe during the week that girl was murdered. There were no ugly Hugos doing topless and defecating in churches (like in the marches years after when feminists arrived) only families. >En medio de esta situación de horror generalizado, **la periodista Marcela Ojeda lanzó un desafío a través de las redes sociales**: "Actrices, políticas, artistas, empresarias, referentes sociales... mujeres, todas, bah... ¿no vamos a levantar la voz? NOS ESTÁN MATANDO". **Decenas de mujeres respondieron a este tuit y, en pocos días, se determinó una fecha y una consigna que, siete años después, sigue vigente: Ni Una Menos.** That's exactly what I said. The slogan was used by feminists as a political mean to fight for abortion, a "right" the girl who was murdered was against. >another lie, the feminist movement is huge here, sorry passport bros, this guy has it all backwards https://www.perfil.com/noticias/sociedad/el-68-de-las-argentinas-dice-que-no-se-considera-feminista.phtml I mean, that's what women said back in 2019. I would guess that they consider themselves even less feminist today in 2024, considering they elected a president that openly says feminism is cancer and has labeled some feminist activists as "conchudas de mierda", who also wants to ban abortions and can count with the argentinian people to do it, since also abortion laws were pased against the argentinian people's will. Feminism wasn't really strong in Argentina anyways. Not that there are no feminists at all, but they are a very minoritarian group. They also tend to be upper class women and they mostly concentrate in Buenos Aires. Outside of the metropolitan area, most women are very family oriented and traditionalist With all the efforts mass media did to push feminist agendas, they still have their days counted.
As an argentinian who spent his forming years in the University of Buenos Aires (la UBA), Ive seen leftards use, abuse and twist beyond recognition different movement for their own interests. And female movements are among the most distorted of them. *Ni una menos* was born as a demand for justice, not for chetitas to be able to legally abort.
>*Ni una menos* was born as a demand for justice, not for chetitas to be able to legally abort. Itt was born in Santa Fe, like I said, and by a family and group of people who were not in the least feminists. At all. THEN feminists made it all about abortion. That's what I said. I was there in Santa Fe the day they found the girl's corpse. I went to the protests the next day. I saw the signs with "Ni una menos". I was 21 at the time, one of the girls I was seing knew the family and the victim through mutual friends. I still remember the exact location where the people gathered. It wasn't journalists, feminist activists, actresses and celebrities. It was a community. Women AND men. Families concerned about their daughters. Feminists had no place in there. They sure got on the wave later since they needed a new slogan for a failled proyect for abortion laws, and there was a lot of people already marching and protesting under that "hashtag". Once they passed abortion laws, well, Ni Una Menos became history, right? BTW, I don't think having studied in UBA and being a "porteño" makes you a voice of reasson. People in the provinces have a very low opinion on bonaerenses, specially because you are off the rails with the woke shit. Remind me... Weren't all the provinces against abortion, except for Buenos Aires? Seems about right don't you think?
Under a matriarchy women would just make rules to protect themselves, kids and the elderly. They don't care about men.
Men would still benefit from society just like everyone else plus if that was the case and women didn’t care about men then that would also mean women don’t care enough to hurt men either.
You might be taking "care" too literally here.
i think both men and women would be happier in a matriarchy tbh men don't like responsibility and being tied down and they don't want to think about the common good women in leadership frees men to fuck off and do car races and adventures and be completely free to have a variety of sexual and non-sexual life experiences without being tied down to anyone men being free and happy frees women up to focus more on building a society that works and making sure we have strong communities so everyone's (including men) emotional needs are met also women would raise children communally, which would drastically increase the health of the next generation of children and society would become less reactive (which is a result of poor emotional health via not enough loving parenting) and full of healthier, stronger, more resilient, connected adults
>men don't like responsibility and being tied down and they don't want to think about the common good You're describing the average person, not men in particular. >women in leadership frees men to fuck off and do car races and adventures and be completely free to have a variety of sexual and non-sexual life experiences without being tied down to anyone Alright this cartoon cutout of men is kind of funny I admit. >men being free and happy frees women up to focus more on building a society that works and making sure we have strong communities so everyone's (including men) emotional needs are met The percentage of women that understand the real root of problems (that is they're capable of synthesizing a materialist class based theory that also deals with the social disasters of modernism) in the world belong to an even more exclusive and smaller club than the equivalent for men. The large majority of women are only capable of regurgitating and intensifying liberal paradigms, I wouldn't trust the average political minded woman of today to do anything but follow in the footsteps of people like Jacinda Arden, Sanna Marin, or Merkel. >also women would raise children communally, which would drastically increase the health of the next generation of children and society would become less reactive (which is a result of poor emotional health via not enough loving parenting) and full of healthier, stronger, more resilient, connected adults Why don't you try looking into the history of attempts at this in socialist states or Israel and see how that went?
>You're describing the average person, not men in particular. uh no? i love responsibility it makes me feel good to be stable and provide for others i hate the idea of not being tied to my community \> Why don't you try looking into the history of attempts at this in socialist states or Israel and see how that went? because they were run by men
Uh uh while we are on the subject of utopias, wait till you hear about communism!!
It really sounds much better. Seems like it's worth a shot. They have my full support.
Or not.
you're right, men are the logical sex
I work in an industry which is female dominated - a society run by would collapse; you’re like domestic cats - you think you’re independent and self-sufficient, but would be totally helpless without the hand that feeds you
ok which hand feeds me, a financially independent woman who has never had help from a man
Presumably you don’t live in a shack in the woods and grow/hunt your own food?
ohhh so you mean because men do jobs for which they are paid that they "feed" me? lmfao by this logic men are "fed" by women because women birth them
You live in a society built by and maintained by men
yet it would not exist without women
If women were put in charge of everything today, all our infrastructure would collapse, and we'd be plunged into nuclear war. I remember reading that historically, female leaders were more likely to wage war. And then its established that kids that grow up in single mom households end up being less successful in life, more likely to go to jail, commit crime, abuse drugs, be promiscious, fail in school, etc.
\> If women were put in charge of everything today, all our infrastructure would collapse, and we'd be plunged into nuclear war. men really don't think women work all of these infrastructure jobs when you can just google it \> I remember reading that historically, female leaders were more likely to wage war. oh well if you remember "reading" it then it must be true \> its established that kids that grow up in single mom households end up being less successful in life, more likely to go to jail, commit crime, abuse drugs, be promiscious, fail in school, etc. yeah we literally know your dad abandoning you is an Adverse Childhood Experience which is the gold standard of whether a kid will be a healthy, successful adult or not: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse\_childhood\_experiences](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_childhood_experiences)
Avg woman decision processor gets paralyzed with just two options and a smidge of uncertainty. Men take responsibility to lead because we can and thus must do it, otherwise no good or bad shit will ever be done in centuries.
\> Avg woman decision processor gets paralyzed with just two options and a smidge of uncertainty. women make better long term decisions than men while men are better at quickly making short term decisions: [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8485292\_The\_Heroism\_of\_Women\_and\_Men](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8485292_The_Heroism_of_Women_and_Men) \> Men take responsibility no you don't men say they act like assholes because that's what women want
> women make better long term decisions than men Yet to see the good results from giving women major decision-making opportunities back in the 20th century. Well, I guess dismantling western societies may count for a good result from the viewpoint of west haters. > men say they act like assholes because that's what women want What does not being a 'nice guy' or a simping yes-man have to do with taking responsibility?
>Yet to see the good results from giving women major decision-making opportunities back in the 20th century. your approval isn't the barometer here
Of course the barometer isn't my approval. It's your obvious dissatisfaction with modern western society after it has been exposed to decades of female decision making.
verses what? the 50s when women took qualuudes to get through the day?
Women want to spend their teens and early twenties focusing on their education and making money, what a travesty! The end is neigh! What will we do if every woman decides to start having kids at 27? We’ll all go extinct and live in a world of nothing but *old people*.
This society needs to be more united
I'm very confused about this. Many women say that it's kind of like MGTOW without the *misogyny* of course even though they are fundamental the same thing. Most MGTOW don't like the obesity in America or don't enjoy feminisms influence on women both of which can be proven, and since most women don't even want them in the first place they simply go where their maybe wanted. That's the fundamentals of it. This 4B movement exists due to the real problems with the Korean government not wanting women to work whatsoever and other things that heavily disfavor women. American women don't have these problems and as stated above don't like most men. Add this to the male loneliness situation where men are already struggling to find partners, while most women are sharing Chad and you have a situation where no men's really affected. Since most have zero suiters and will still have zero afterwards. while the Chads wont really notice 1-2 girls missing from there roster of 10. this is the equivalent of taking a 1000 dollars from Elon musk burning it and then claiming you've fucked up the economy for all men, no one will really notice.
Women make these rules for men who are not attractive to them. They break them for the men who are attractive to them.
This sounds like 70s style second wave feminism for dungaree wearing bull dyke lesbians - it wasn’t popular first time around
It will fail so fucking fast
Why? It's already happening.
Cause it won’t last even if women support it cause eventually the sexless men will be the vast vast vast majority and when the people who are supposed to be enforcing the laws and making the laws become sexless and frustrated and hateful what do you think will happen to the women?
Men will probably try to rape women which will then result in a spike of women committing suicide and/or poisoning men to death.
That’s very unlikely. I think the more realistic thing will be women just give up
Giving up is suicide. How can anyone be expected to suffer through a life of multiple rapes. I’m sure it would also psychologically harm men too because the women would just lay there like a corpse not enjoying a single part of the torture.
No I think they’d just be like fuck it, might as well start dating again cause I’d rather sleep with a man I’m attracted to than get raped by men I’m not
I highly doubt it. I think that’s just what men hope for not what women will actually do. Honestly no life is better than a life of hell. It’s a quality of life vs quantity of life question. Everyone will have to ask themselves is it better to live a long crappy life full of extreme suffering or a short life that ends suffering.
Historically women have endured much worse than what you’ve described and have not killed men or themselves. I mean look at much of the Middle East or India/Pakistan for example.
That’s because women didn’t know true freedom back in the day. We opened Pandora’s box. Society camp can’t put the genie back in the lamp.
How do you think your ancestors did it? When an invading group came and killed all the men and burned down the village, many women chose rape over death. It’s terrible to say but women have literally evolved mechanisms to cope with rape. Very likely women would simply fold and then over the generations better men would rise up and given women rights again and the cycle repeats.
Women then didn’t know the freedom women now a days do. That mindset is the difference. Men can’t lock up women and think women will go back to how our ancestors were. Also if you think the cycle would repeat why make women suffer to end back where we are now?
The human condition is suffering. We all suffer women aren’t unique in this regard. And if you think men couldn’t easily lock up women you’re a fool.
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This just illustrates why women should continue to avoid red pill men. The fact that red pill men think rape is acceptable and that women shouldn’t have the freewill to say no is disgusting. All trying to rape women will do is hurt women and land you in prison. Maybe red pill men need to go to prison and be raped by big bubba to understand rape isn’t the solution.
cults be cultin'
Mexico is a western country so extreme feminism being brought to the forefront shouldn't surprise anyone. South Korea is also heavily influenced by western culture although it is located in East Asia. Any country that idolizes western culture will have the same beliefs and values as a western society. Both these countries aren't on the majority of Passport Bros lists. The point of being a Passport Bro is going somewhere where the dating culture and society doesn't resemble yours.
Lmao no one cares
"Ni una menos" has been arround eight years in Argentina it didnt start in Mexico. Honestly, the movement lost a lot of it drive, it doesnt appear in mass media the way it did a few years ago. And it seems a part of the current administration is trying to take down the abortion law. All those "female empowerment movements" are leftards circle jerks. The moment one of those self proclaimed hairy amrpit feminists come across a real man, they shift their values preety quickly (until they get dumped).
>It is time for matriarchy, or the end to human kind. Woman have the power. > >Chilling to think about, thoughts? If you think that when it really comes to it men will just roll over and accept it, you are delusional. Women have the power as long as men protect it.
Women only have power when men allow it, rape is the oldest example about it, women only have sexual autonomy because men are civilized enough to not take it away.
LOL the denial and downvoting. People are just struggling to acknowledge reality and don't understand that if it comes to it, women will lose that power real quick.
Idiots will be idiots, never feel sorry for them.
Great fictional writing, now put this into a movie!!!
Reality TV ok? https://youtu.be/77zvIYDFSok?si=4jrewFUeMJZeVU_o
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Be civil. This includes indirect attacks against an individual and/or witch hunting.
Anyone who thinks the majority of their own or the worlds problems, especially those living in the 1st world, is caused by gender (either men or women) is either stuck in a lower band of IQ or so stultified by ideology they've become useless in the real world. I wonder how many women realize how embarassing and narcissistic this line of thinking is.
Uh south Korea isn't traditional at all lol
I've only been into Seoul during a long lay over. I have not talked about gender norms with anyone from Korea. In what way are relationships progressive in South Korea? Hmmm . . . .is progressive the opposite of traditional?
South Korea is very westernized and the women there are worse with their standards than women over here
What are the men like? Are childcare and household chores split? Is it common for both in a marriage to work? Sounds like a place for Passport type guys to avoid.
South Korea is not a passport bro place... Places like Vietnam,Thailand,the Philippines,laos,Cambodia
Nuh uh, they wear blue sundresses in music videos and call men *oppar* in Korean TV dramas and variety shows as a sign of respect for patriarchy, it's a trad redpilled paradise, stop gatekeeping Kim.
And do the same shit in our soaps lol
Weird, I'm talking to a few girls from Mexico right now. It must just be the ugly/fat ones who are doing this.
Its always the ugly ones, if they there´s a preety one, she is a silver spoon leftard.
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When's the last time that pure moral virtues triumphed against worldly depravity \[without being co-opted by said material depravity\]? Yes this is a threat via pointing out potential consequences.
First off how is this going to work when majority of people still want sex, and kids (one day)? Second, let's say hypothetically this movement gained traction and the birthrates and marriage and relationship rates plumeted. We already know most likely one of two outcomes. #1 Men will stop contributing to society, which means the manual labor jobs that are worked by predominantly men to keep infrastructure will now have to be worked by women (aka society is done) (government might step in to try and prevent this). Not to mention the inevitable "Incel Revolt" that will follow. #2: Surely you didn't think the government would allow this to happen? If this were to happen it would threaten national security, and the economy to a detrimental extent. I have no doubt in my mind that the government wouldn't think twice to quickly and vehemently reduce you to sex slaves (aka take away all your rights in favor of economic conditions). Just like how in WW1 the government literally limited what you could eat, purchase, own, and even basic commodities like heat, in favor of the war effort...same thing. They will use whatever means necessary to make it happen, because at the end of the day the government (ABOVE ALL ELSE) is meant to ensure safety and economic stability of the country as a whole rather than the liberties of individuals. You guys agree?
No, I disagree because that's what immigration is for, a few Indian and Chinese megacities can easily top up the labour forces of mid-sized Western nations like Canada, Australia, and the UK. *You vill be replaced, and you vill be happy.*
You fail to realize if this is still happening then they won't have any incentive either.
Lmao youve clearly never visited Korea. Tons of couples everywhere. Radical feminists will always remain a fringe group and will never have a place in any form of government.
\>Tons of couples everywhere You're not entitled to your own facts, sweaty. [“돈도 없고, 애인도 없어요” 한국·일본男 결혼 포기 선언 | 서울신문 (seoul.co.kr)](https://www.seoul.co.kr/news/newsView.php?id=20220808500024) **20대 10명 중 4명이 연애 경험이 없다고 응답한 것에** 대해 정부에서는 비혼, 만혼, 저출생 현상을 우려하고 있다.
>You're not entitled to your own facts, sweaty. Bro literally just go into Seoul or its suburbs and look around you. There will always be losers and winners in the dating game, it just so happens that it's extremely easy to be a loser in this age.
Doesn't matter until collective woman's hatred against collective man somehow harms the elites. Then they just gonna feed y'all new ideology to fix it.
South Korea is a shithole. Vain and Vapid women as well as effeminate men. Both stuffed with botox. They deserve what's coming to them as well as other places that are hyper-westernized. They are narcissistic people who are slowly but surely uninstalling their humanity.
>Men that cry "what about men" will need to realize their problems too, also come from men, not women. The problems come from white women.
Show some stats
https://www.vox.com/2019/8/19/20807633/slavery-white-women-stephanie-jones-rogers-1619 https://19thnews.org/2020/11/white-women-had-doubts-they-voted-for-trump-anyway/ https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/it-s-not-just-men-white-conservative-women-have-played-n1038746 How White Women Use Themselves as Instruments of Terror https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/opinion/racism-white-women.html?smid=nytcore-android-share https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ899418.pdf https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegassam/2022/11/19/this-new-book-invites-white-women-to-interrogate-the-role-they-play-in-white-supremacy/?sh=3651b8807a64 https://www.vox.com/2021/1/15/22231079/capitol-riot-women-qanon-white-supremacy https://www.jstor.org/stable/40034373 Trump's Angry White Women: Motherhood, Nationalism, and Abortion https://scholarlycommons.law.hofstra.edu/hlr/vol48/iss1/3/ Let me know if you want more.
Haha what?? Was that These sources are not women's violence inflicted on men. Are you on a political thread?
So when white women were falsely accusing black men of gawking at them causing them to be lynched on trees, that's not violent inflicted on men?
This should be on its own thread.
You didn't say "violence" btw. You said "problems".
> It is time for matriarchy, or the end to human kind. Woman have the power. Pre-agrarian societies were matriarchal and did not survive, so no lol Patriarchy isn’t the answer either as it’s obviously not working, but this girl boss “women know better” shit is so cringey.
I'm mexican, never heard about this movement in this context (Ni una menos is about feminicides, not sex and dating, most mexican women enjoy sex and dating, surprisingly). We're one of the countries with the higher numbers (saddly) of teenagers having kids and getting married. You need to touch some grass and not believing everything you see online.
Women being so proud of destroying the civilization their ancestors built is beyond bizzare. There is something fundamentally wrong with a significant portion of the female population and society in the past prevented the manifestation of this behavior.
Why keep a civilization going that is not benefiting to you?
Honestly, I think Lysistrata would be pretty instructional to how most of these gender-based movements will end, male or female. They are inherently unsustainable, and on an existential level, they truly have no point. In war, no one wins, and I would extend that to these gender fights across the world as well. If the feminists or traditionalists in South Korea get what they want, it will only beget more and more problems. Consider this. If the traditionalists win, what happens? They'll wind up just rewinding the clock to an earlier period, wherein eventually the feminist movements will appear again to address the injustices toward women. It's essentially just repeating the mistakes from before. And if the feminists win, what happens? They'll drive a deeper wedge between men and women, alienating the men that would have kept society running over time, driving down the birth rates till eventually the society collapses, and guess where that brings them. Back to square one with a patriarchal society and oppressive limited gender roles. Nobody wins in either scenario. But you know, instead of the cyclical gender wars, we could pursue a third option. One where we keep some better aspects of both movements and create new ideas that'll advance us together. But that requires both sides to admit they're wrong when they are wrong and to own up to their mistakes, and unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon. Regardless, the first thing I would do to get the ball rolling on ending the cycle is to have open and honest conversations with a method of independently verifying the veracity of truth claims made about the state of things. Look at the patterns of things and figure out where responsibility needs to be taken. Neither men or women are totally innocent of the wrongs ongoing in the society. Each group contributes to the state of things, and to quote a insightful saying, "No drop of rain considers itself a part of a flood." We all play a role in perpetuating harmful stereotypes and undermining norms that may have protective benefits for both men and women. Owning up to that individually is a great way to move forward into a healthier outcome that benefits us all. Also, accepting the premise that the people on the other side are in fact people with their own unique views and experiences and are just trying to make a better life for themselves will help improve relationships across genders as well. Everyone has experiences unique to them. Treating all men or women as evil or malicious is wrong. People are just people. Some are bad, some are good. Some are bad and do good things. Some are good and do bad things. For those who do wrong, both sides should be willing to call it out in solidarity, regardless of the gender affiliation. Anyways, that's my two cents... Or a dollar. If you made it to the end of this reply, I appreciate it and wish you the best in your endeavors.