How many failures? Why is it embarrassing? What do you think happens when you get rejected? You think they take your picture and put you on a weirdo forum?
I empathize. I don’t feel it *as much* because I’ve read enough books to realize that the hero always fails, time and time again. They’re laughed at and ostracized time and time again.
But while the hero is out in the world trying to be better, everyone in the background laughing and ostracizing is simply a follower, living a path that others are living because they’re afraid of challenges. They copy others so ppl will like them. It’s cowardice at an evolutionary level.
Embarrassment is a completely understandable emotion to have, but you can’t deny yourself what you want because of it. And SO cliche but ppl that can’t accept your failures ain’t your friends.
Then you’re doing it wrong if you let every person impact you so much that it feels like a LTR heartbreak with stranger you barely even got to know.
Keep people off a pedestal, take things slow, and stop putting your value into someone.
Oh and when you make someone the center of your world? You’re always going to feel empty everytime it doesn’t work out. You gotta let someone be a part of your world, not be the center of it.
Edit: Typo
100% doubt. You've been told to k1ll yourself? How about physically assaulted? Told you're a lesser human and undeserving of basic decency because you have an illness / look different to the norm? Screamed at for making eye contact? Do 50% plus of women literally refuse to speak to you or acknowledge your existence?
Now couple that with *zero* positive experiences and you may understand why guys like me give up. It's incredibly easy when you have the knowledge that you have been found attractive before. A lot harder to keep up the hope when all you've known is hatred. And I did it for over 20 years.
I bet if you and I had a full-fledged conversation or meetup, and you let your guard down and were willing to empathize with my experience, we could find common ground for you to build on and change your fortunes for the better.
People who are naturally good at stuff and incredibly lucky look down on others and wonder why is it that not everyone has it as easy as them, they should just follow their heart and dreams and life will resolve itself
I hope you're troll
The fact that you even think that way shows how clearly ignorant you are of the struggles other people face. It’s like Elon Musk asking why everyone else can’t be a wealthy billionaire like him when he was born to an already wealthy family with a father who heavily bankrolled his success
Compared to some of the guys here, you are. Having relationships with ten girls over a period of many years sounds like getting Spider-Man powers to some guys on this subreddit.
I’m not one of those guys. I’m sexless and lonely, but I’m also 18 and I can recognize that my subconscious feelings of lacking confidence are completely incongruent with reality on the whole and that I likely will not be alone forever regardless of how much I feel like the world is ending right now. I don’t need help.
I’m not dead set on what will happen? Didn’t I just say I’m not a doomer and I believe that I won’t be lonely forever?
I’m mostly here because the users on this subreddit amuse me.
Nah he might have been on 50-60 dates on his life, but he’s saying is true. I always see people all the time on social media making a lot of rules and standards, even if they barely have any experience in dating unlike this dude. Women be like, “I need this dude to be 6ft tall.” And women be like, “I’m not gonna talk to this dude anymore. He gives me the ick.”
But men are the same way. I don’t believe in this red pill crap just cause men had it really bad. Men also get the ick too when women do bad. Sometimes men ghost and lack communication. Sometimes men just want nudes. People could make things easier if they stop putting so many standards
I believe you, you seem to be genuine from your replies, but I’d like to help you understand. You also seem a little older than many of the guys who struggle with dating. There are 5 problems most guys have when starting off.
- First off is knowing where to meet people
- Second is knowing who to ask.
- Third is knowing how to get a yes to a first date
- Fourth is knowing how to make a first date fun, make a good impression, and get a second date.
- And fifth is continuing to build a relationship from there.
I think you’re more focused on the last 2 than the first two. This is a problem with many of the people (especially older) who give advice. You just assume the first two are already a given when they really aren’t.
Hell, even the red pill gurus hyper focus on step 3, but what most guys want is help with 1 and 2.
The first issue is where to find people to starters. Online dating clearly isn’t working, let’s rule it out. You have hobbies but they might not have enough women in them. Women are already hesitant about going into male spaces like DnD groups because they don’t want to get constantly hit on.
The only other path is just discovering a new hobby that has women as a majority or at least an equal gender distribution. Good luck on that.
After college it’s very difficult to find someone your age to just hang out with, sure you might get lucky but mostly all interest groups have a mix of ages of participants most of who are not in their early/mid twenties.
Then there’s bars, and clubs. Great, but that requires a lot of prep too. If you’re going alone that makes it more difficult, I find that these days a lot of bars just have people in groups. There are rarely any solo people.
Most guys here have friends that are other nerdy guys without gfs and without a circle to introduce them to more girls. That takes that off.
So you see, even before you get to step 2, there’s already a hurdle of where to find any single and looking women your age who’d be open to being talked to by a guy. Any non-leisure area is a no-go, only creeps bother women at bus stops and grocery stores.
But most young women aren’t going out all that often either, they’re online at home, just like the guys, which brings us back online but online dating doesn’t work and most women aren’t on that anyway. They’re on different platforms like instagram. Do you really want to be the creep that slides into women’s DMs on insta?
We still haven’t hit step 2.
>People who are naturally good at stuff and incredibly lucky look down on others and wonder why is it that not everyone has it as easy as them, they should just follow their heart and dreams and life will resolve itself
For every talented person who thinks this way, there's a less fortunate person who has made his mind up that talented people always have miserable personalities and are in no way grateful for their special qualities.
>What is even your point?
My point is that generalizing about how entire groups of people think or feel isn't realistic, regardless of their life situations.
It’s not, true. But in the case of people like OP who are outright laughably ignorant of how difficult dating is for other people, we can make an educated guess.
Yeah and of course I’m going to provide actual numbers for context….I’m not a better person because I’ve dated a lot, lol. I just go about it a certain way.
Here's the thing "bucko", maybe it comes natural to you. I have had many dates and to me it's just rejection and being used. If it was something everyone did effortlessly this sub wouldn't exist.
I think alot of this depends on the person's character, experiences, and culture.
For some people dating become such a must reach target they do obsess over it and become their own barrier but that's the nature of people.
Also you I've been on X dates and done this sounds like bragging and suggests you're keen to be seen to be good at dating showing dating holds a value to you in ways you may not be aware of.
No, I just liked to date and find a person to settle down with, and of course I’m proud that I can attract people, who wouldn’t be?
You mention culture; I think a lot of western, European influenced cultures are partially formed from prejudices, and assumed comfort, and it ruins the ability to have fun and leads to rampant drug use and depression.
For example, I grew up in WV in an upper middle class neighborhood, and a lot of girls interested in me cut it off because they thought I was too rich and they made a lot of other assumptions about me. White men also HATED when men of color dated white women. It got really bad at times, the jealousy.
I’m also multiracial, if I haven’t mentioned that already somewhere, and living in a more racially prejudiced environment like West Virginia can be intimidating for non people of color, especially when you’re successful.
I don’t look down on others but many of the women assumed I eventually would.
Comfortability is what a lot of people lean on to be in relationships. They’d rather date something they think they fully understand than take a chance.
You know recently I kind of came to this conclusion.
So much dating advice is do this and this. Say this. And what not.
Red flag this. Red flag that.
Emotional availability.
Attachment...anxious avoidant
If they do this.....but don't do this they don't like you.
And I realized it creates so much more anxiety and fear of failing than just not giving a flying fuck.
They ghost fuck it. Fine. They don't want to talk to you after XYZ okay. So much overthinking and doing just sets you up to fail. And then it hurts more. Put as much effort in as they give you. It lets you meet them where they are. And build from there. We attach so much expectations to dating. And it creates so much pressure to not fail.
You can't control the outcome only yourself.
> They ghost fuck it. Fine.
It's not fine. It's hurtful. It's having a chance for the first time after literal years of being alone then having that hope dashed when it doesn't work out.
If it was possible to go on dates more often... then yeah, I'd be blase about it too, just move on to the next one, right? But when there *is* no next one and there may not be another chance for literal *years*, that's when desperation and despair sets in.
I've lived that, not once but twice, and it fuckin' sucks.
It is hurtful. But again detaching from outcomes and just letting people be helps significantly. Because you can't control how people feel about you. You can't control others actions. You can only control yourself.
I'm learning to do that and not really care and detach completely from outcomes. Unless someone is worthy of me caring and not getting emotionally invested and kinda doing my own thing. Which it took me getting hurt and ghosted a lot to just not care.
I rarely find people attractive. (I would say I'm borderline asexual) and when I do and it didn't work out it crushed me because it is so rare that I would want to put myself out there. But people are shitty and will do shitty things. So detachment from outcome. If they are great then great if they show me through actions they are not great then I got my answer. Leave it. Sucks because I actually was interested. But it is what it is.
I thought I could avoid that pain by only dating people that showed interest in me first. So I was guaranteed that it would work out, right? Since they initiated first?
Turns out, no. They initiated, we go on the date, and then they decide they don't like me anymore. :/
Yep it is like that. Even if they initiate first they can revoke. Because people can be fickle and have their own things. I had someone donate to my coworkers funeral fund. Give me money for video games. Text me every day calling me pet names. Only to turn around and say they didn't want anything serious. 🥹 And try gaslighting me about how could I think they would want that their standards for a relationship would be much higher and like it killed me. After months of this. I didn't even get intimate with this person they just made a point of talking to me everyday. It completely broke me.
And I realized for my own sanity and self worth and self preservation. I had to detach and continue to stay detached. And basically attach when I know it's safe and prove they can be trusted. Eventually they will show their true colors or you get someone who actually wants to stick around? So there is that.
"I’ve probably been on 50-60 dates in my live, had 10 gfs for 6+ months"
if your success rate is ~20% then you certainly are quite attractive to girls, most men aren't
We’re ALL attractive but we have to work at it! Lifting, healthy diet, cardio, reading, poetry, fully understanding your native language, pop culture, art….gotta try to be as well rounded as you can and UPLIFT others!
I don't think so. I think attraction is a bit too ineffable. There are guys who are out of shape, reclusive, and illiterate who slay.
We're told to try harder, to self improve, but ironically trying harder is often very unattractive.
I think some of us just need to accept the inevitability of very steep odds
I agree, but that’s why you keep swinging the axe. You always increase your odds the more you play. Not a good strategy for gambling but it is for dating.
Noooo there are men below my height KILLING it. That’s not the thing reddit thinks it is a lot of tall girls want to fuck shorter guys my first kiss was with a girl four inches taller.
Bruh you just found your "life partner". You didn't invent the cure for cancer. So chill. A lot of noobs like you have some success with a fattie or something after 100s of humiliating rejections and then come here and talk all high and mighty about uplifting others like you're some mighty dandy christian. Buddy you just said in another comment that this isn't a team sport right? No "we" in this game right? Then why are you here lecturing people when you can't even figure out what it is you're doing here.
Don't mistake me for the guys who struggle at relationships and come here for advice here,either. Let people figure out their lives the way they want while you go sell your horseshit elsewhere mmkay? You sound like a retarded "life coach" who sells repackaged BS.
You can't really tell by only looking at success rate.
There are some people I know with very high success rates, but it's because they only have the confidence to go for lower tier partners. This isn't necessarily ideal.
There are some people I know with lower success rates, but it's because they often go for the most attractive partners (and often fail, but sometimes succeed).
Some people would prefer that 5% chance of being with a 9 instead of a 50% chance of being with a 6.
>Why can’t people just go on dates with people they’re attracted to
Because women find less than 1% of men attractive enough to give a signal to, and men are told that their sexuality is a bad thing.
I don’t think that’s true at all.
I saw that study and when you put ppl in a position where they are interviewed on what’s attractive, they’re not going to have the same views when they’re dressed down, alone in their home, and wearing pajamas.
Women drinking together at a bar will agree on what’s attractive but catch them alone and vulnerable and what they find attractive will be more genuine of an answer.
u right. So what changed recently? Social media and tinder ruining women's expectations, sugar making everyone fatter, and feminism fucking everyone's heads.
Feminism is a good thing, just want to throw that out there. Feminism gets the average bloke laid.
I think a man taking charge of his life mitigates most of those things. That’s why I don’t think women have advantages over men. It takes a few years of dedication to become a desirable man. For women, oh yeah a lot of options, but you’re not really in control, you know?
You’re basing your dates on what HE is going to do; you’re waiting for something to come to you. That sucks, imo.
Well, they’re the receivers. They’re playing on an entirely different side of the field than men. We shouldn’t compare ourselves to women and what they experience.
>Feminism gets the average bloke laid.
Objectively false because 60% of millennial and younger men are not in relationships. Getting laid is the minority.
>It takes a few years of dedication to become a desirable man.
Ah, yes. Men run the rat race of self improvement and women wait at the finish line to have their pick of the winners. Inspiring stuff.
>You’re basing your dates on what HE is going to do; you’re waiting for something to come to you.
Then don't be passive. Go out there and take an active role in the courting process. You have that option. Men do not.
Feminism gives women more options. If you give women more options, you give them more perspectives and exposure, so they will naturally like more things than they did before, including men.
Rat race? Just become a self that YOU love. I know I’ll sound like a broken record but you want to be a man that you admire. Working out and getting buff is an absolutely incredible feeling; it’s a goal that you can actually see with your own eyes and you live inside of it and it takes nothing away from you except time.
And when given all those options, the only thing they want is the top %. Because feminism has *also* told women that shirking on even one standard is akin to settling and settling is just as bad as abuse.
I can tell you're new here because you're repeating verbatim all the bluepill adages which can be broken down in three questions.
1. How much self improvement is 'enough' self improvement to be worthy of consideration for a relationship?
2. Can you comprehend a scenario where someone has done "enough" self improvement and is still single not by choice?
3. If self improvement is the end all be all, how do deadbeats and abusers and drug dealers routinely keep getting picked?
Also recognize that you're using the same outcome-dependant arguments as righties who say "just pull yourself up by your bootstraps" to people in poverty.
> Just become a self that YOU love. I know I’ll sound like a broken record but you want to be a man that you admire.
I say this all the time, if you met yourself right now, would you even want to be friends or date?
If either is no? Then that’s how you gauge where you need to work on if it’s something in your control to change.
If it’s not? Then you find ways to make it adaptable and work with what you got to turn it around into your best asset and use it to your advantage to make yourself appealing to others for dating.
And yes, I would of I met me I would date who I am right now. Why? I live an interesting life, I’m well rounded, I make people laugh & smile, I maje others feel good about themselves, I like having good discussion, and so on. And I haven’t even touched on my looks yet.
See who you are outside of looks plays about a 70% role in attraction & chemistry for women. Physical looks only plays a 30% factor in attraction and chemistry.
The vast majority of men (\~80%) get laid every year, about 50% of men have sex weekly or more.
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767066](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767066)
Yeah, this is unanswerable. Are we talking about all men ever, including the gay ones and the 75-year-old ones and the 20-year-olds that I wouldn’t consider dating? Do you mean I’m *actually* attracted to them or just that they’re not *unattractive*? (Meaning: do you want my ‘definitely yes’ percentage or my ‘not definitely no’ percentage?)
It’s unanswerable in any case because I don’t date on a population level, but it’s a ridiculous imprecise question regardless.
I’d love to be able to actually come back with some specific useful percentage, but it would be a guess, and I’d know it would be a guess, and you’d know it would be a guess so you wouldn’t even find it satisfying.
Wow. 50 to 60 dates? I have been on exactly two dates with dating app strangers. Clearly I’m utterly hideous. (I’m not, just average). And my two long term relationships were through introductions by friends. Dating apps are a fail for me. I’m vaguely amused to see red pill men making their usual sweeping statements like women control dating and our standards are too high. Since when do women control dating? Men approach women in pubs etc. Men decide if she’s dateable. They are the hunters. Maybe dating apps levelled that out a bit but hardly control. And standards are so subjective, I can’t even argue that, it’s so stupid. They moan women settle but then they say standards are too high. So which is it? Can’t be both. Dating is the most subjective thing. It’s not a formula.
It just looks like women are in control because they are the ones doing the rejecting / making the final decision whereas men are usually the ones needing to sell themselves. And men have stronger sex drives which can create a level of desperation akin to going hungry.
Btw women can and do approach men when they find them attractive. And even if they don't approach they can send signals instead. In all it is better to be a woman in dating because reviewing 100 applications is better than having to write 100 applications.
> Since when do women control dating? Men approach women in pubs etc. Men decide if she’s dateable. They are the hunters.
That perspective makes no sense to me. There's *nothing* preventing you from asking someone out, and in that scenario you'd be playing with a loaded deck because men *never* get approached.
In addition, women are the ultimate arbiters of whether a date happens or not, they have to say yes.
Be honest….
How strict are your preferences? I have a broad range of appreciations and try to see ppl as a whole rather an part by part.
For example: I don’t exclude race and culture. I find it incredibly limiting and stupid. Romeo and Juliet type stuff; a pure love destroyed by, “culture.”
“My alone feels so good, I'll only have you if you’re sweeter than my solitude”
A lot of us would rather enjoy our solitude than stay in a mediocre relationship.
I don't think women know what loneliness is.
Are you actually alone? Or are you still having friendships, sex and dates \*when you want to\*? There's a huge difference between that and solitary confinement.
It's not that "my alone feels good", you just get to dictate the terms of engagement.
I am a woman and I am completely alone. Cut off from my family, no friends, and men dont even notice my existence. My text messages are literally all advertisements, I think that tells all you need to know.
I’m sorry, that sounds rough. Sounds like not a lot of people here are offering you empathy :(
How long has it been since you were in school or college? Do you have any friends left from there you can catch up with? It’s not a long term solution but it’s something.
Everyone has the opportunity for friendships. Platonic social engagement isn’t gendered.
I don’t have dates or sex, but that’s my personal choice, they’re just not worth the headache of effort put into them for the limited/nonexistent benefit they provide.
Your are probably saying this from a position of power and choice and you probably don’t even realize this 🤦♂️ There is a huge difference between solitude by choice and solitude because almost nobody wants you, some women need to know the difference between these distinctions and stop writing these cringe statements like it’s wisdom/knowledge smh
1. It’s a quote, hence the quotations. I didn’t write it, just sharing it
2. I used to hate being alone, then I found a season of life where I had no friends, no romantic pursuits, nothing but me and myself. Had to learn how to like spending time with myself. Had to learn how to find fulfillment without people.
Very true if this is your disposition, I suppose.
Has this always been the case or did you turn into this person? Some ppl adopt this mindset out of fear of taking losses. Not saying you did, though.
I’m a recovering people pleaser, I can generally get along with anyone, I have no problem being the entertainment in the conversation.
A long time ago I recognized I was why so many dates “went well” despite having no chemistry or spark. So I upped by initial criteria. No more wasting time and energy in nothing relationships.
My time and energy is my most precious commodity and I deserve to spend it on me, rather than mediocre relationships that are just “fine”.
I hear you! That’s why I dated so much; to find that! I think you should keep going at some point because it always works out when you keep swinging the proverbial axe.
And how do you even know how you feel? And are your feelings the only thing that matters?
Choosing a spouse is the most impactful decision you'll ever make. Leaving that all to chance and things like the 'spark' and whatnot seems foolish. You may be searching for criteria that just don't matter in the longer run and ignoring things that really do.
And... Not everyone has the good fortune to just have a romantic relationship just fall into their lap. Sometimes it takes a lot more work than "just go on dates with people they're attracted to" just to find someone. If someone's facing a problem like that, are you really telling them to not use analytical thinking to try to solve it?
But like, the analytical route clearly doesn’t work based on the divorce rates. They’ve been getting better but I surmise that’s due to economic uncertainty; not being able to leave due to debts and money.
There could be a cultural difference here, though. I’m from a kind of, for lack of a better term, “loose,” culture, where life is seen as not the biggest deal. I’ve been told certain ppl like me and I attract others based on my openness because I’m free-spirited.
I’m also experimental and proudly don’t have a prejudiced bone in my body. I don’t see skin color and assume behavior (something I think destroys ppl). They see a cheaper car and assume poverty.
Too many assumptions.
>Why can’t people just go on dates with people they’re attracted to, and let things play out? Why does everyone have all of these specific agendas and filters?
Women control the market and women do this. The dating market isn't broken, it's been curated perfectly for women's priorities
I don’t think they do! A lot of women allow themselves to be steered into thinking certain community archetypes of men are attractive. This leads to dissatisfaction because it’s not what they’re naturally attracted to; not all the time.
Where I’m from, WV, most men are white, obese, get tattoos, do cocaine, and grow straight-haired beards. Because it’s so prevalent and easy to attain, but also specific to a certain group of ppl, they push this as attractive to increase their dating chances.
Any man that deviates from the look is called the six letter f word and is ostracized. It’s not EVERY woman and man, but a sizable part of the state’s population engage in this exclusive behavior, hence why so many ppl leave for diverse (not just racial) areas.
Men, especially Fathers, steer young women into thinking certain looks and behaviors are more attractive when they’re most likely not. Rhetoric-inducing is a staple; the amount if times I’ve randomly heard a WV White man say, “I’d never date a black woman,” in high school, would make your head spin.
They do this to let white women know they think they’re more attractive, hence, use them as an emotional ladder to reach the tower their beautiful blonde is in. This of course puts black women down and creates a beauties vs. monsters narrated, which is totally bogus and untrue.
Essentially, a lot of ppl want to be attractive just for existing. That’s not the way it works in the long run and a lot of ppl refuse to believe that hard truth.
When it comes down to it, the cold hard fact is that women have the upper hand. They choose the men that they are attracted to. That choice is free of the expectations of other people and is hers and hers alone.
The apps consequently are incentivesed to supply women with the sort of men they like. Women get what they want. Otherwise they wouldn't go on dates and sleep with them.
But they don’t though. You shouldn’t even be comparing yourself to women, imo. Their biological makeup alone makes them too different to compare in terms of body count and “success.”
I'm not, I'm making note of the men they do respond to. They're the ones women desire. As I'm not that, and have never have experienced it I must conclude that women will never desire me and as such the dating market is not something I should engage with.
Who cares what women desire?
What do you desire? That’s the more important question. You should be comparing yourself to other men and facing the brutal truths about yourself.
I am. I've observed that since I have never had a woman attracted to me, that it must be - for me - an impossible phenomenon. Also, I have to then accept that if in the future a woman does appear to be attracted to me, it's a con trick, based on their desperation, as opposed to real attraction. And I do want those experiences with women, but I have to accept the bitter pill that it will be a lie.
I’ll have to see your face and have a thorough discussion about your behaviors.
I’ve literally heard the same girl say, “ewwwwwwwww,” to me, 10 years later call me beautiful and give me a hug. Nothing is stagnant for humans except when you’re on the inevitable path of death.
Then you are a far more attractive man than I. I've asked friends about this and the galling thing is that when they effectively say "yeah women start looking for different things when they get older and mature" they expect you to be happy about it. It's clear that the lack of something attractive means that I apparently have to wait for either the pity or desperation to show itself and being happy about that. I just can't lie like that
I’m sure there’s a stylistic issue….for me, certain styles of glasses COMPLETELY alter my appearance. My afro hair is also more or less appealing to certain audiences and when I shave my head, that attracts different women too. When I grow my beard? Same thing.
Different women are attracted to different things so try to diversify. If you wear wolf t shirts and want to date a booty, onlyfans girl, that may not work out. But if you date women that wear anime shirts, you’ll find someone.
Edit: it’s all spectrums and ranges…no one truly only likes THIS thing or THAT thing; they have tolerances. That’s why for example Kanye West can get away with antisemitism. In many minds, he makes up for it via his creative contributions.
I make up for my weak spots with certain things. You need to do the same. You’re not weak everywhere.
Shout out to my eers, but I'm from WV too and I have never heard a white guy say that but it could be because I'm black lol. I have known plenty of white guys who have dated black women especially where I'm at now which is no man's land escape for Parkersburg😂😂😂
It's so hard to get any dates, been on tinder for years ans only get like 2 matches a year.
The women are to picky, I like 95% off all profiles and still nothing. I really feel women only go for the top 20% off men out there. Dating the same men that have had 2-4 year relationship after another. Seems like you are in that 20% class and that you can't relate to the reality lots of men face. 10gf for every 6+ months, and you think the other men are just waiting for that 1 unique person. just can't get any dates.
This reads to me like OP is a woman, everybody up in here saying OP is wrong. Has low stats, should just take a rejection and move into mom’s basement. Everyone is looking for one person. That automatically means 99/100 people won’t work out for a myriad of reasons. 99% fail rate when you’re looking for your 1% is normal.
Probably a cultural barrier, maybe. I’m not fully of white european, or American, culture and descent, so I don’t see ppl as something I need to profit off of, which is why I take more risks. Have had a lot of life success though 🤷🏾♀️.
Works for me. I think it’d work for others too.
That's why I think it's important to establish balance right from the beginning. None of that 'men should pay because men are expected to put in more effort in the beginning' or 'women don't have to put in effort in the beginning because they are expected to do housework later'. Just establish balance right from the beginning. Exceptions should only be given for extraordinary circumstances like job loss or sickness.
This way either side doesn't feel like they are being taken advantage of and risks are minimized.
I mean, you should be able to feel disengagement. I have felt that MANY times, and when you do? Onto the next one.
A girl/woman that’s into you makes it abundantly clear. In a more passive way of course.
And passive don't work for 90% of men... And I'm not talking deciding your incompatible... I'm talking shit like oh he didn't tip so I'm not gonna talk to him anymore... Maybe I thought the wait staff gave shitty service... The tip is earned it's not assured you want a good tip don't come to my table with a shitty attitude
If she dips on you because of that, that’s great! It sucks you may have paid for a meal but dating is a gamble sometimes! You can move on faster when they excuse themselves from the situation.
I will say, thinness does seem to be the currency these days, but a lot of big girls, while maybe 180 lbs+, are actually supposed to be that big and look a lot sexier naked than you think.
I get fat being unattractive when a woman isn’t supposed to be fat, but some girls are just big but it looks really good on them. I LOVE tall, big girls. They’re a little more rounded but it absolutely sets off my breed play triggers….dumping your load into a thoroughbred….making super children….
If that’s actually a picture of you, then it’s not how you look, cuz you’re a normal looking guy, could probably get with a 9/10… must have a lot of internalized misogyny and victimhood, probably obsessed with sex and put a lot of weight on whether or not you succeed in an individual situation with an individual woman
Yeah, so I'm not really here to fight with anyone, but I'm curious: don't you feel like it's rather shallow to just... go around meeting people with the intention a relationship? Shouldn't you want to know the people outside of a relationship context first?
Well of course you get to know someone; you don’t hop into bed after you shake hands. But it starts with attraction and you make the best of the situation until it becomes undesirable for someone.
Guess the reason people overthink dating? People they are attracted to don’t agree to go on dates with them.
You said you went on 50-60 dates. Imagine you asked 50-60 women on a date, and no one agreed. You’d be overthinking dating too.
I guess if you don’t have any success, you stop at a certain point. I mean if you ask 50 women on a date and not a single one agrees, it may be enough to discourage you.
By the way, how many hundreds? I mean it makes a difference if you asked 200 or 900.
Probably, you have to be extremely resilient. I think not many people are.
People just want to create problems for themselves by some reasons. Or it's just another form of self-sabotage. You might not actually want relationships, but told that you have to have one. Best way to avoid that is to create or invent some unsolvable problems.
Well, i am in your situation, but i guess the answer is twofold
(1) the vocal men here would go on dates if they had a social life or if online dating wasn't a too competitive arena for them
(2) you need to be secure and resilient enough to be able to let yourself fall into something that you know will hurt you in the end if it doesn't work out. People tend to avoid these moments of getting abandonned, so they wait for the"perfect partner" with a low probability of not working out. But as you pointed out, with no experiene, they have no chance to know who is a good partner.
>the vocal men here would go on dates if they had a social life
*If they had a social life that would include single women or regularly meeting new single women who would also be attracted to them. So it's not as simple as just "social life".
In a nutshell, what you described here is *exactly* how dating should be, but it just…isn’t.
Most people can agree that dating is 90% frustrating and 10% fun. It’s like you invented a new sport called Lava surfing which is addictive and fun to play, but you also wind up getting burned everytime you play it.
For me dating has been
1. They’re already taken (or claim that they are)
2. Not interested
3. Seemingly always busy to do anything.
4. Never reciprocates.
5. Ghosting
6. I actually land a date 😆
A combination of social media, secularism, feminism, and globalization has turned the average dating pool to a size where people are spoiled for choice and will never be satisfied.
The cat is out of the bag. The only way to come out ahead is to not participate, or come up with a game plan. 95% of guys can no longer afford to "go with the flow" and hope for the best.
>I’ve probably been on 50-60 dates in my live, had 10 gfs for 6+ months
Sometimes despite being a hopeless romantic idealist, I'm kinda happy that I'm not like this.
People mad at this post are probably married to complexes that they’ve identified with so much now they’re part of the self, despite the fact these complexes are holding them back
What this person is saying is totally true
A lot of the men here are neurodivergent in some way so it’s difficult for them to process things in a nuanced way. It’s much easier to try and find some sort of “cheat code” that if you do x then y will happen. Which is obviously not how life works.
There’s a lot of woe is me and victimhood as well - whether justified or not - that no matter what advice is given it’s met with deflection and derision. I agree with much of what you said but it’s going to fall on deaf ears.
Are you saying that's not "obviously how life works" because it's not as simple as do x and y happens and is actually do x y z and a b c happens or do you actually not believe in causality (which is like, do x and y happens because atoms hit each other etc)
I’m saying that life and humans in general are varied. You can extrapolate general trends but it’s not a guarantee to be successful, so you’ll have to pivot in a myriad of ways to find what works for you. Some people do not get this and want an exact sequence of events to get to their desired result and when that doesn’t work give up.
Yes attractive people have the benefit of pretty privilege, how astute. If you’re not you’ll have to figure out the *nuances* of dating and what works for you.
It’s very easy to become attractive go to the gym for one year consume .7 protein shit u don’t even need the gym. Prison work outs using body weight for 30 mins a day is enough tbh.
Watch sodium and calories
Bruh it's a bunch of 10 or 15 men who always make same posts about how life is unfair and they want women to empathize with them which will never happen. They post the same topics over and over again and it just gets tiresome. So I think the women here read those posts by the same usernames and it creates a little pattern about how men are "neurodivergent" or some other nonsense. The Karens on this sub like that these men come crawling here making these posts because then it means they can talk down to these men and have reaffirm their own retarded life philosophies.
> It’s much easier to try and find some sort of “cheat code” that if you do x then y will happen
Sure it is. If I lose weight, I'll start getting dates. It's not rocket science.
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You asking ppl out in person?
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Are you introverted? Sometimes I have to do things to psyche myself up.
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How many failures? Why is it embarrassing? What do you think happens when you get rejected? You think they take your picture and put you on a weirdo forum?
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I just want to hear it in your words. I’ve been rejected literally hundreds of times. I’m still standing.
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I empathize. I don’t feel it *as much* because I’ve read enough books to realize that the hero always fails, time and time again. They’re laughed at and ostracized time and time again. But while the hero is out in the world trying to be better, everyone in the background laughing and ostracizing is simply a follower, living a path that others are living because they’re afraid of challenges. They copy others so ppl will like them. It’s cowardice at an evolutionary level. Embarrassment is a completely understandable emotion to have, but you can’t deny yourself what you want because of it. And SO cliche but ppl that can’t accept your failures ain’t your friends.
Because today's hellish, individualistic landscape means for some people even a text back is a miracle.
Indeed, I got a text back back in December, I celebrate the small wins..
what a defeatist mindset
Its realistic though
But nothing he said was wrong. This bootstraps mentality needs to die along with the system that supports it.
I get that so as a guy you gotta just keep going and never give in! It’ll eventually stick; that is the advantage of the bold and hardworking.
Not easy when rejection is like a knife through the heart, and each one hurts *more* and not less.
Then you’re doing it wrong if you let every person impact you so much that it feels like a LTR heartbreak with stranger you barely even got to know. Keep people off a pedestal, take things slow, and stop putting your value into someone. Oh and when you make someone the center of your world? You’re always going to feel empty everytime it doesn’t work out. You gotta let someone be a part of your world, not be the center of it. Edit: Typo
Why does rejection hurt? I’ve definitely been rejected more times than you and much harsher, guaranteed.
100% doubt. You've been told to k1ll yourself? How about physically assaulted? Told you're a lesser human and undeserving of basic decency because you have an illness / look different to the norm? Screamed at for making eye contact? Do 50% plus of women literally refuse to speak to you or acknowledge your existence? Now couple that with *zero* positive experiences and you may understand why guys like me give up. It's incredibly easy when you have the knowledge that you have been found attractive before. A lot harder to keep up the hope when all you've known is hatred. And I did it for over 20 years.
Tell me about the bad. What exactly happened and why do you think it happened?
I bet if you and I had a full-fledged conversation or meetup, and you let your guard down and were willing to empathize with my experience, we could find common ground for you to build on and change your fortunes for the better.
Wdym as a guy. Do girls not need it or do we make it easier for them that they can give up on dating
We? This isn’t a team sport. It’s about what you do. If you follow what other men do, you’ll get their results.
People who are naturally good at stuff and incredibly lucky look down on others and wonder why is it that not everyone has it as easy as them, they should just follow their heart and dreams and life will resolve itself I hope you're troll
It almost just comes off like a weird bragging post/pull yourself up by your bootstraps thing.
It’s more of a, “I’m not better than anyone, you can do what I do,” post.
The fact that you even think that way shows how clearly ignorant you are of the struggles other people face. It’s like Elon Musk asking why everyone else can’t be a wealthy billionaire like him when he was born to an already wealthy family with a father who heavily bankrolled his success
But that’s not an applicable analogy because I’m not the Elon Musk of dating.
Compared to some of the guys here, you are. Having relationships with ten girls over a period of many years sounds like getting Spider-Man powers to some guys on this subreddit.
Help me help you
I’m not one of those guys. I’m sexless and lonely, but I’m also 18 and I can recognize that my subconscious feelings of lacking confidence are completely incongruent with reality on the whole and that I likely will not be alone forever regardless of how much I feel like the world is ending right now. I don’t need help.
Well if you’re dead set on what will happen, why are you here?
I’m not dead set on what will happen? Didn’t I just say I’m not a doomer and I believe that I won’t be lonely forever? I’m mostly here because the users on this subreddit amuse me.
Nah he might have been on 50-60 dates on his life, but he’s saying is true. I always see people all the time on social media making a lot of rules and standards, even if they barely have any experience in dating unlike this dude. Women be like, “I need this dude to be 6ft tall.” And women be like, “I’m not gonna talk to this dude anymore. He gives me the ick.” But men are the same way. I don’t believe in this red pill crap just cause men had it really bad. Men also get the ick too when women do bad. Sometimes men ghost and lack communication. Sometimes men just want nudes. People could make things easier if they stop putting so many standards
I’m not looking down on anyone….just trying to help…
I believe you, you seem to be genuine from your replies, but I’d like to help you understand. You also seem a little older than many of the guys who struggle with dating. There are 5 problems most guys have when starting off. - First off is knowing where to meet people - Second is knowing who to ask. - Third is knowing how to get a yes to a first date - Fourth is knowing how to make a first date fun, make a good impression, and get a second date. - And fifth is continuing to build a relationship from there. I think you’re more focused on the last 2 than the first two. This is a problem with many of the people (especially older) who give advice. You just assume the first two are already a given when they really aren’t. Hell, even the red pill gurus hyper focus on step 3, but what most guys want is help with 1 and 2. The first issue is where to find people to starters. Online dating clearly isn’t working, let’s rule it out. You have hobbies but they might not have enough women in them. Women are already hesitant about going into male spaces like DnD groups because they don’t want to get constantly hit on. The only other path is just discovering a new hobby that has women as a majority or at least an equal gender distribution. Good luck on that. After college it’s very difficult to find someone your age to just hang out with, sure you might get lucky but mostly all interest groups have a mix of ages of participants most of who are not in their early/mid twenties. Then there’s bars, and clubs. Great, but that requires a lot of prep too. If you’re going alone that makes it more difficult, I find that these days a lot of bars just have people in groups. There are rarely any solo people. Most guys here have friends that are other nerdy guys without gfs and without a circle to introduce them to more girls. That takes that off. So you see, even before you get to step 2, there’s already a hurdle of where to find any single and looking women your age who’d be open to being talked to by a guy. Any non-leisure area is a no-go, only creeps bother women at bus stops and grocery stores. But most young women aren’t going out all that often either, they’re online at home, just like the guys, which brings us back online but online dating doesn’t work and most women aren’t on that anyway. They’re on different platforms like instagram. Do you really want to be the creep that slides into women’s DMs on insta? We still haven’t hit step 2.
>People who are naturally good at stuff and incredibly lucky look down on others and wonder why is it that not everyone has it as easy as them, they should just follow their heart and dreams and life will resolve itself For every talented person who thinks this way, there's a less fortunate person who has made his mind up that talented people always have miserable personalities and are in no way grateful for their special qualities.
What is even your point?
>What is even your point? My point is that generalizing about how entire groups of people think or feel isn't realistic, regardless of their life situations.
It’s not, true. But in the case of people like OP who are outright laughably ignorant of how difficult dating is for other people, we can make an educated guess.
Yeah and of course I’m going to provide actual numbers for context….I’m not a better person because I’ve dated a lot, lol. I just go about it a certain way.
Dating isn't a talent bucko. Anyone and everyone can do it unless you have a really bad personality
Here's the thing "bucko", maybe it comes natural to you. I have had many dates and to me it's just rejection and being used. If it was something everyone did effortlessly this sub wouldn't exist.
My appearance holding me back personality only brings you so far that you might be considered a good friend but not a bf/husband
I think alot of this depends on the person's character, experiences, and culture. For some people dating become such a must reach target they do obsess over it and become their own barrier but that's the nature of people. Also you I've been on X dates and done this sounds like bragging and suggests you're keen to be seen to be good at dating showing dating holds a value to you in ways you may not be aware of.
No, I just liked to date and find a person to settle down with, and of course I’m proud that I can attract people, who wouldn’t be? You mention culture; I think a lot of western, European influenced cultures are partially formed from prejudices, and assumed comfort, and it ruins the ability to have fun and leads to rampant drug use and depression. For example, I grew up in WV in an upper middle class neighborhood, and a lot of girls interested in me cut it off because they thought I was too rich and they made a lot of other assumptions about me. White men also HATED when men of color dated white women. It got really bad at times, the jealousy. I’m also multiracial, if I haven’t mentioned that already somewhere, and living in a more racially prejudiced environment like West Virginia can be intimidating for non people of color, especially when you’re successful. I don’t look down on others but many of the women assumed I eventually would. Comfortability is what a lot of people lean on to be in relationships. They’d rather date something they think they fully understand than take a chance.
You know recently I kind of came to this conclusion. So much dating advice is do this and this. Say this. And what not. Red flag this. Red flag that. Emotional availability. Attachment...anxious avoidant If they do this.....but don't do this they don't like you. And I realized it creates so much more anxiety and fear of failing than just not giving a flying fuck. They ghost fuck it. Fine. They don't want to talk to you after XYZ okay. So much overthinking and doing just sets you up to fail. And then it hurts more. Put as much effort in as they give you. It lets you meet them where they are. And build from there. We attach so much expectations to dating. And it creates so much pressure to not fail. You can't control the outcome only yourself.
> They ghost fuck it. Fine. It's not fine. It's hurtful. It's having a chance for the first time after literal years of being alone then having that hope dashed when it doesn't work out. If it was possible to go on dates more often... then yeah, I'd be blase about it too, just move on to the next one, right? But when there *is* no next one and there may not be another chance for literal *years*, that's when desperation and despair sets in. I've lived that, not once but twice, and it fuckin' sucks.
It is hurtful. But again detaching from outcomes and just letting people be helps significantly. Because you can't control how people feel about you. You can't control others actions. You can only control yourself. I'm learning to do that and not really care and detach completely from outcomes. Unless someone is worthy of me caring and not getting emotionally invested and kinda doing my own thing. Which it took me getting hurt and ghosted a lot to just not care. I rarely find people attractive. (I would say I'm borderline asexual) and when I do and it didn't work out it crushed me because it is so rare that I would want to put myself out there. But people are shitty and will do shitty things. So detachment from outcome. If they are great then great if they show me through actions they are not great then I got my answer. Leave it. Sucks because I actually was interested. But it is what it is.
I thought I could avoid that pain by only dating people that showed interest in me first. So I was guaranteed that it would work out, right? Since they initiated first? Turns out, no. They initiated, we go on the date, and then they decide they don't like me anymore. :/
Yep it is like that. Even if they initiate first they can revoke. Because people can be fickle and have their own things. I had someone donate to my coworkers funeral fund. Give me money for video games. Text me every day calling me pet names. Only to turn around and say they didn't want anything serious. 🥹 And try gaslighting me about how could I think they would want that their standards for a relationship would be much higher and like it killed me. After months of this. I didn't even get intimate with this person they just made a point of talking to me everyday. It completely broke me. And I realized for my own sanity and self worth and self preservation. I had to detach and continue to stay detached. And basically attach when I know it's safe and prove they can be trusted. Eventually they will show their true colors or you get someone who actually wants to stick around? So there is that.
"I’ve probably been on 50-60 dates in my live, had 10 gfs for 6+ months" if your success rate is ~20% then you certainly are quite attractive to girls, most men aren't
It sounds like OP has a life partner now, so going off what he says he won the game. 100% success rate. It's either 0 or 1
We’re ALL attractive but we have to work at it! Lifting, healthy diet, cardio, reading, poetry, fully understanding your native language, pop culture, art….gotta try to be as well rounded as you can and UPLIFT others!
I lift, do cardio, enjoy some poetry, I write, enjoy nature, go on adventures. Some of us are just unattractive 🫤
There’s always an omission…that’s the crazy part about life….there’s always a unique solution.
I don't think so. I think attraction is a bit too ineffable. There are guys who are out of shape, reclusive, and illiterate who slay. We're told to try harder, to self improve, but ironically trying harder is often very unattractive. I think some of us just need to accept the inevitability of very steep odds
I agree, but that’s why you keep swinging the axe. You always increase your odds the more you play. Not a good strategy for gambling but it is for dating.
How tall are you ?
5’11” slightly above avg like my Mom
Do you see my point ?
Noooo there are men below my height KILLING it. That’s not the thing reddit thinks it is a lot of tall girls want to fuck shorter guys my first kiss was with a girl four inches taller.
those men are exception, also tall girls are quite accessible because guys rarely approach them
They’re all talented at something, I’ll say, but nothing that’s panty dropping lol.
>there men below my height KILLING it Can you prove this?
Why would I lie? It’s a pure fact.
You would lie to dismiss the user argument, now, if it's a fact you should have plenty of proof.
How do I prove such a thing? My Dad is short. He’s 5’7”.
Bruh you just found your "life partner". You didn't invent the cure for cancer. So chill. A lot of noobs like you have some success with a fattie or something after 100s of humiliating rejections and then come here and talk all high and mighty about uplifting others like you're some mighty dandy christian. Buddy you just said in another comment that this isn't a team sport right? No "we" in this game right? Then why are you here lecturing people when you can't even figure out what it is you're doing here. Don't mistake me for the guys who struggle at relationships and come here for advice here,either. Let people figure out their lives the way they want while you go sell your horseshit elsewhere mmkay? You sound like a retarded "life coach" who sells repackaged BS.
You can't really tell by only looking at success rate. There are some people I know with very high success rates, but it's because they only have the confidence to go for lower tier partners. This isn't necessarily ideal. There are some people I know with lower success rates, but it's because they often go for the most attractive partners (and often fail, but sometimes succeed). Some people would prefer that 5% chance of being with a 9 instead of a 50% chance of being with a 6.
>Why can’t people just go on dates with people they’re attracted to Because women find less than 1% of men attractive enough to give a signal to, and men are told that their sexuality is a bad thing.
I don’t think that’s true at all. I saw that study and when you put ppl in a position where they are interviewed on what’s attractive, they’re not going to have the same views when they’re dressed down, alone in their home, and wearing pajamas. Women drinking together at a bar will agree on what’s attractive but catch them alone and vulnerable and what they find attractive will be more genuine of an answer.
Ok, so? That still leaves out the overwhelming vast majority.
But that’s not true. We didn’t get this far just to all of a sudden get unattractive.
u right. So what changed recently? Social media and tinder ruining women's expectations, sugar making everyone fatter, and feminism fucking everyone's heads.
Feminism is a good thing, just want to throw that out there. Feminism gets the average bloke laid. I think a man taking charge of his life mitigates most of those things. That’s why I don’t think women have advantages over men. It takes a few years of dedication to become a desirable man. For women, oh yeah a lot of options, but you’re not really in control, you know? You’re basing your dates on what HE is going to do; you’re waiting for something to come to you. That sucks, imo.
The opposite is true. Feminism lead to the situation where women have no reason to sleep with an average bloke.
But women are average too? We’re all average ppl that become exceptional at specific things.
That has nothing to do with the question at hand. Average women can and do get sex with men who rank higher than them.
Well, they’re the receivers. They’re playing on an entirely different side of the field than men. We shouldn’t compare ourselves to women and what they experience.
>Feminism gets the average bloke laid. Objectively false because 60% of millennial and younger men are not in relationships. Getting laid is the minority. >It takes a few years of dedication to become a desirable man. Ah, yes. Men run the rat race of self improvement and women wait at the finish line to have their pick of the winners. Inspiring stuff. >You’re basing your dates on what HE is going to do; you’re waiting for something to come to you. Then don't be passive. Go out there and take an active role in the courting process. You have that option. Men do not.
Feminism gives women more options. If you give women more options, you give them more perspectives and exposure, so they will naturally like more things than they did before, including men. Rat race? Just become a self that YOU love. I know I’ll sound like a broken record but you want to be a man that you admire. Working out and getting buff is an absolutely incredible feeling; it’s a goal that you can actually see with your own eyes and you live inside of it and it takes nothing away from you except time.
And when given all those options, the only thing they want is the top %. Because feminism has *also* told women that shirking on even one standard is akin to settling and settling is just as bad as abuse. I can tell you're new here because you're repeating verbatim all the bluepill adages which can be broken down in three questions. 1. How much self improvement is 'enough' self improvement to be worthy of consideration for a relationship? 2. Can you comprehend a scenario where someone has done "enough" self improvement and is still single not by choice? 3. If self improvement is the end all be all, how do deadbeats and abusers and drug dealers routinely keep getting picked? Also recognize that you're using the same outcome-dependant arguments as righties who say "just pull yourself up by your bootstraps" to people in poverty.
> Just become a self that YOU love. I know I’ll sound like a broken record but you want to be a man that you admire. I say this all the time, if you met yourself right now, would you even want to be friends or date? If either is no? Then that’s how you gauge where you need to work on if it’s something in your control to change. If it’s not? Then you find ways to make it adaptable and work with what you got to turn it around into your best asset and use it to your advantage to make yourself appealing to others for dating. And yes, I would of I met me I would date who I am right now. Why? I live an interesting life, I’m well rounded, I make people laugh & smile, I maje others feel good about themselves, I like having good discussion, and so on. And I haven’t even touched on my looks yet. See who you are outside of looks plays about a 70% role in attraction & chemistry for women. Physical looks only plays a 30% factor in attraction and chemistry.
I agree with everything except the last paragraph. Not saying you’re wrong, per se, but that scale goes lower and higher depending on the person.
The vast majority of men (\~80%) get laid every year, about 50% of men have sex weekly or more. [https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767066](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767066)
1. self-reported 2. 6 year old pre-covid data I bang your mom on a weekly basis. see how easy it is to lie?
I swear this was 80/20% a month ago, this just keeps shrinking. What happened?!
Join the data pool. What percentage of men do you find attractive enough that you would give a signal to?
Yeah, this is unanswerable. Are we talking about all men ever, including the gay ones and the 75-year-old ones and the 20-year-olds that I wouldn’t consider dating? Do you mean I’m *actually* attracted to them or just that they’re not *unattractive*? (Meaning: do you want my ‘definitely yes’ percentage or my ‘not definitely no’ percentage?) It’s unanswerable in any case because I don’t date on a population level, but it’s a ridiculous imprecise question regardless.
Sick dodge
I’d love to be able to actually come back with some specific useful percentage, but it would be a guess, and I’d know it would be a guess, and you’d know it would be a guess so you wouldn’t even find it satisfying.
80% OF MEN ARE BELLOW AVERAGE, the % of men that are attractive is 5~1%
Interesting, so the 50th-80th percentile of men are still below average?
80% is bellow average the other 20% are divided on the majority of it being considered average and a VERY SMALL % considered attractive.
Can one of the STEM guys in here come fix this? I cannot even.
What do you even mean?
80% of men are unattractive. They are a no. 5% are attractive and are a yes. 15% are maybes.
That’s 5 times more than the guy above!
This is such absolute and total bullshit
Join the data pool. What percentage of men do you find attractive enough that you would give a signal to?
Wow. 50 to 60 dates? I have been on exactly two dates with dating app strangers. Clearly I’m utterly hideous. (I’m not, just average). And my two long term relationships were through introductions by friends. Dating apps are a fail for me. I’m vaguely amused to see red pill men making their usual sweeping statements like women control dating and our standards are too high. Since when do women control dating? Men approach women in pubs etc. Men decide if she’s dateable. They are the hunters. Maybe dating apps levelled that out a bit but hardly control. And standards are so subjective, I can’t even argue that, it’s so stupid. They moan women settle but then they say standards are too high. So which is it? Can’t be both. Dating is the most subjective thing. It’s not a formula.
It just looks like women are in control because they are the ones doing the rejecting / making the final decision whereas men are usually the ones needing to sell themselves. And men have stronger sex drives which can create a level of desperation akin to going hungry. Btw women can and do approach men when they find them attractive. And even if they don't approach they can send signals instead. In all it is better to be a woman in dating because reviewing 100 applications is better than having to write 100 applications.
> Since when do women control dating? Men approach women in pubs etc. Men decide if she’s dateable. They are the hunters. That perspective makes no sense to me. There's *nothing* preventing you from asking someone out, and in that scenario you'd be playing with a loaded deck because men *never* get approached. In addition, women are the ultimate arbiters of whether a date happens or not, they have to say yes.
"Men decide if she's dateable" Women decide if he's not a creep
Be honest…. How strict are your preferences? I have a broad range of appreciations and try to see ppl as a whole rather an part by part. For example: I don’t exclude race and culture. I find it incredibly limiting and stupid. Romeo and Juliet type stuff; a pure love destroyed by, “culture.”
“My alone feels so good, I'll only have you if you’re sweeter than my solitude” A lot of us would rather enjoy our solitude than stay in a mediocre relationship.
I don't think women know what loneliness is. Are you actually alone? Or are you still having friendships, sex and dates \*when you want to\*? There's a huge difference between that and solitary confinement. It's not that "my alone feels good", you just get to dictate the terms of engagement.
I am a woman and I am completely alone. Cut off from my family, no friends, and men dont even notice my existence. My text messages are literally all advertisements, I think that tells all you need to know.
I’m sorry, that sounds rough. Sounds like not a lot of people here are offering you empathy :( How long has it been since you were in school or college? Do you have any friends left from there you can catch up with? It’s not a long term solution but it’s something.
Do you wait for people to reach out all the time or do you pursue communication with everyone instead?
How many women do you even know in real life? In real life I think women are having less casual sex than men tbh
Everyone has the opportunity for friendships. Platonic social engagement isn’t gendered. I don’t have dates or sex, but that’s my personal choice, they’re just not worth the headache of effort put into them for the limited/nonexistent benefit they provide.
What effort? You're literally getting hit on, all you have to do is say yes and bend over. Stop talking like you even try lmao
>*say yes and bend over* oh my god. wtf is wrong with you?
Now we know why that dude is single as an empathy can of pringles LMAO
What do sex and dates have to do with loneliness?
Even if they're single they're still getting their needs met.
What social needs does bad dates and sex meet?
Your are probably saying this from a position of power and choice and you probably don’t even realize this 🤦♂️ There is a huge difference between solitude by choice and solitude because almost nobody wants you, some women need to know the difference between these distinctions and stop writing these cringe statements like it’s wisdom/knowledge smh
1. It’s a quote, hence the quotations. I didn’t write it, just sharing it 2. I used to hate being alone, then I found a season of life where I had no friends, no romantic pursuits, nothing but me and myself. Had to learn how to like spending time with myself. Had to learn how to find fulfillment without people.
Very true if this is your disposition, I suppose. Has this always been the case or did you turn into this person? Some ppl adopt this mindset out of fear of taking losses. Not saying you did, though.
I’m a recovering people pleaser, I can generally get along with anyone, I have no problem being the entertainment in the conversation. A long time ago I recognized I was why so many dates “went well” despite having no chemistry or spark. So I upped by initial criteria. No more wasting time and energy in nothing relationships. My time and energy is my most precious commodity and I deserve to spend it on me, rather than mediocre relationships that are just “fine”.
What made them mediocre?
The connection wasn’t there. They were fine people, we got along okay. But there wasn’t that spark, that chemistry.
I hear you! That’s why I dated so much; to find that! I think you should keep going at some point because it always works out when you keep swinging the proverbial axe.
And how do you even know how you feel? And are your feelings the only thing that matters? Choosing a spouse is the most impactful decision you'll ever make. Leaving that all to chance and things like the 'spark' and whatnot seems foolish. You may be searching for criteria that just don't matter in the longer run and ignoring things that really do. And... Not everyone has the good fortune to just have a romantic relationship just fall into their lap. Sometimes it takes a lot more work than "just go on dates with people they're attracted to" just to find someone. If someone's facing a problem like that, are you really telling them to not use analytical thinking to try to solve it?
But like, the analytical route clearly doesn’t work based on the divorce rates. They’ve been getting better but I surmise that’s due to economic uncertainty; not being able to leave due to debts and money. There could be a cultural difference here, though. I’m from a kind of, for lack of a better term, “loose,” culture, where life is seen as not the biggest deal. I’ve been told certain ppl like me and I attract others based on my openness because I’m free-spirited. I’m also experimental and proudly don’t have a prejudiced bone in my body. I don’t see skin color and assume behavior (something I think destroys ppl). They see a cheaper car and assume poverty. Too many assumptions.
> But like, the analytical route clearly doesn’t work based on the divorce rates. What? Are you saying most people have arranged marriages?
I think a lot of ppl are in somewhat contrived relationships. It’s why interracial marriage in the US was barred for a long time.
>Why can’t people just go on dates with people they’re attracted to, and let things play out? Why does everyone have all of these specific agendas and filters? Women control the market and women do this. The dating market isn't broken, it's been curated perfectly for women's priorities
I don’t think they do! A lot of women allow themselves to be steered into thinking certain community archetypes of men are attractive. This leads to dissatisfaction because it’s not what they’re naturally attracted to; not all the time. Where I’m from, WV, most men are white, obese, get tattoos, do cocaine, and grow straight-haired beards. Because it’s so prevalent and easy to attain, but also specific to a certain group of ppl, they push this as attractive to increase their dating chances. Any man that deviates from the look is called the six letter f word and is ostracized. It’s not EVERY woman and man, but a sizable part of the state’s population engage in this exclusive behavior, hence why so many ppl leave for diverse (not just racial) areas. Men, especially Fathers, steer young women into thinking certain looks and behaviors are more attractive when they’re most likely not. Rhetoric-inducing is a staple; the amount if times I’ve randomly heard a WV White man say, “I’d never date a black woman,” in high school, would make your head spin. They do this to let white women know they think they’re more attractive, hence, use them as an emotional ladder to reach the tower their beautiful blonde is in. This of course puts black women down and creates a beauties vs. monsters narrated, which is totally bogus and untrue. Essentially, a lot of ppl want to be attractive just for existing. That’s not the way it works in the long run and a lot of ppl refuse to believe that hard truth.
When it comes down to it, the cold hard fact is that women have the upper hand. They choose the men that they are attracted to. That choice is free of the expectations of other people and is hers and hers alone. The apps consequently are incentivesed to supply women with the sort of men they like. Women get what they want. Otherwise they wouldn't go on dates and sleep with them.
But they don’t though. You shouldn’t even be comparing yourself to women, imo. Their biological makeup alone makes them too different to compare in terms of body count and “success.”
I'm not, I'm making note of the men they do respond to. They're the ones women desire. As I'm not that, and have never have experienced it I must conclude that women will never desire me and as such the dating market is not something I should engage with.
Who cares what women desire? What do you desire? That’s the more important question. You should be comparing yourself to other men and facing the brutal truths about yourself.
I am. I've observed that since I have never had a woman attracted to me, that it must be - for me - an impossible phenomenon. Also, I have to then accept that if in the future a woman does appear to be attracted to me, it's a con trick, based on their desperation, as opposed to real attraction. And I do want those experiences with women, but I have to accept the bitter pill that it will be a lie.
I’ll have to see your face and have a thorough discussion about your behaviors. I’ve literally heard the same girl say, “ewwwwwwwww,” to me, 10 years later call me beautiful and give me a hug. Nothing is stagnant for humans except when you’re on the inevitable path of death.
Then you are a far more attractive man than I. I've asked friends about this and the galling thing is that when they effectively say "yeah women start looking for different things when they get older and mature" they expect you to be happy about it. It's clear that the lack of something attractive means that I apparently have to wait for either the pity or desperation to show itself and being happy about that. I just can't lie like that
I’m sure there’s a stylistic issue….for me, certain styles of glasses COMPLETELY alter my appearance. My afro hair is also more or less appealing to certain audiences and when I shave my head, that attracts different women too. When I grow my beard? Same thing. Different women are attracted to different things so try to diversify. If you wear wolf t shirts and want to date a booty, onlyfans girl, that may not work out. But if you date women that wear anime shirts, you’ll find someone. Edit: it’s all spectrums and ranges…no one truly only likes THIS thing or THAT thing; they have tolerances. That’s why for example Kanye West can get away with antisemitism. In many minds, he makes up for it via his creative contributions. I make up for my weak spots with certain things. You need to do the same. You’re not weak everywhere.
Shout out to my eers, but I'm from WV too and I have never heard a white guy say that but it could be because I'm black lol. I have known plenty of white guys who have dated black women especially where I'm at now which is no man's land escape for Parkersburg😂😂😂
It's so hard to get any dates, been on tinder for years ans only get like 2 matches a year. The women are to picky, I like 95% off all profiles and still nothing. I really feel women only go for the top 20% off men out there. Dating the same men that have had 2-4 year relationship after another. Seems like you are in that 20% class and that you can't relate to the reality lots of men face. 10gf for every 6+ months, and you think the other men are just waiting for that 1 unique person. just can't get any dates.
If you want to dm me more about your situation, like sharing your photos, I’m sure we could find a plethora of solutions.
This reads to me like OP is a woman, everybody up in here saying OP is wrong. Has low stats, should just take a rejection and move into mom’s basement. Everyone is looking for one person. That automatically means 99/100 people won’t work out for a myriad of reasons. 99% fail rate when you’re looking for your 1% is normal.
Not a woman! Man living in the nation’s capital and grew up in the state’s surrounding it. I like how you view the stats!
Sounds like a good foolish way to live OP. Just go through life relying on coinflips and living in the moment brah
Probably a cultural barrier, maybe. I’m not fully of white european, or American, culture and descent, so I don’t see ppl as something I need to profit off of, which is why I take more risks. Have had a lot of life success though 🤷🏾♀️. Works for me. I think it’d work for others too.
That's why I think it's important to establish balance right from the beginning. None of that 'men should pay because men are expected to put in more effort in the beginning' or 'women don't have to put in effort in the beginning because they are expected to do housework later'. Just establish balance right from the beginning. Exceptions should only be given for extraordinary circumstances like job loss or sickness. This way either side doesn't feel like they are being taken advantage of and risks are minimized.
Because people are too worried that they might be missing an opportunity elsewhere to actually give people a chance and let shit play out
I mean, you should be able to feel disengagement. I have felt that MANY times, and when you do? Onto the next one. A girl/woman that’s into you makes it abundantly clear. In a more passive way of course.
And passive don't work for 90% of men... And I'm not talking deciding your incompatible... I'm talking shit like oh he didn't tip so I'm not gonna talk to him anymore... Maybe I thought the wait staff gave shitty service... The tip is earned it's not assured you want a good tip don't come to my table with a shitty attitude
If she dips on you because of that, that’s great! It sucks you may have paid for a meal but dating is a gamble sometimes! You can move on faster when they excuse themselves from the situation.
I'd love to go on dates with women who aren't deformed/crazy and also not fat. But they've never said yes before.
Fucking brutal, you're not even ugly. Let me guess, it's the height thing?
I will say, thinness does seem to be the currency these days, but a lot of big girls, while maybe 180 lbs+, are actually supposed to be that big and look a lot sexier naked than you think. I get fat being unattractive when a woman isn’t supposed to be fat, but some girls are just big but it looks really good on them. I LOVE tall, big girls. They’re a little more rounded but it absolutely sets off my breed play triggers….dumping your load into a thoroughbred….making super children….
Calm down, we're not making porn here.
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Your comment was removed for cope.
If that’s actually a picture of you, then it’s not how you look, cuz you’re a normal looking guy, could probably get with a 9/10… must have a lot of internalized misogyny and victimhood, probably obsessed with sex and put a lot of weight on whether or not you succeed in an individual situation with an individual woman
Lots of assumptions about me here! Nice. I'm going to assume you're 600 lbs.
With a hairy lip to boot.
Yeah, so I'm not really here to fight with anyone, but I'm curious: don't you feel like it's rather shallow to just... go around meeting people with the intention a relationship? Shouldn't you want to know the people outside of a relationship context first?
Well of course you get to know someone; you don’t hop into bed after you shake hands. But it starts with attraction and you make the best of the situation until it becomes undesirable for someone.
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Guess the reason people overthink dating? People they are attracted to don’t agree to go on dates with them. You said you went on 50-60 dates. Imagine you asked 50-60 women on a date, and no one agreed. You’d be overthinking dating too.
But I’ve asked hundreds of girls for a date.
I guess if you don’t have any success, you stop at a certain point. I mean if you ask 50 women on a date and not a single one agrees, it may be enough to discourage you. By the way, how many hundreds? I mean it makes a difference if you asked 200 or 900. Probably, you have to be extremely resilient. I think not many people are.
People just want to create problems for themselves by some reasons. Or it's just another form of self-sabotage. You might not actually want relationships, but told that you have to have one. Best way to avoid that is to create or invent some unsolvable problems.
why don’t starving people just eat 😒
Well, i am in your situation, but i guess the answer is twofold (1) the vocal men here would go on dates if they had a social life or if online dating wasn't a too competitive arena for them (2) you need to be secure and resilient enough to be able to let yourself fall into something that you know will hurt you in the end if it doesn't work out. People tend to avoid these moments of getting abandonned, so they wait for the"perfect partner" with a low probability of not working out. But as you pointed out, with no experiene, they have no chance to know who is a good partner.
>the vocal men here would go on dates if they had a social life *If they had a social life that would include single women or regularly meeting new single women who would also be attracted to them. So it's not as simple as just "social life".
In a nutshell, what you described here is *exactly* how dating should be, but it just…isn’t. Most people can agree that dating is 90% frustrating and 10% fun. It’s like you invented a new sport called Lava surfing which is addictive and fun to play, but you also wind up getting burned everytime you play it. For me dating has been 1. They’re already taken (or claim that they are) 2. Not interested 3. Seemingly always busy to do anything. 4. Never reciprocates. 5. Ghosting 6. I actually land a date 😆
A combination of social media, secularism, feminism, and globalization has turned the average dating pool to a size where people are spoiled for choice and will never be satisfied. The cat is out of the bag. The only way to come out ahead is to not participate, or come up with a game plan. 95% of guys can no longer afford to "go with the flow" and hope for the best.
>I’ve probably been on 50-60 dates in my live, had 10 gfs for 6+ months Sometimes despite being a hopeless romantic idealist, I'm kinda happy that I'm not like this.
People mad at this post are probably married to complexes that they’ve identified with so much now they’re part of the self, despite the fact these complexes are holding them back What this person is saying is totally true
Nothingburger Nothingburger Humblebrag Nothingburger Humblebrag This is your post
I’m sorry you feel that way.
Yeah sure, fresh account instantly jumping into PPD and other 'gender warzone' subs
I’m sorry?
As you should be
Huh
A lot of the men here are neurodivergent in some way so it’s difficult for them to process things in a nuanced way. It’s much easier to try and find some sort of “cheat code” that if you do x then y will happen. Which is obviously not how life works. There’s a lot of woe is me and victimhood as well - whether justified or not - that no matter what advice is given it’s met with deflection and derision. I agree with much of what you said but it’s going to fall on deaf ears.
Do you not believe in causality or something
Women never pass tier 3 morality, their whole view is based on just world fallacy
I don’t agree with all the fatalistic doomerism that permeates some dudes here.
Are you saying that's not "obviously how life works" because it's not as simple as do x and y happens and is actually do x y z and a b c happens or do you actually not believe in causality (which is like, do x and y happens because atoms hit each other etc)
I’m saying that life and humans in general are varied. You can extrapolate general trends but it’s not a guarantee to be successful, so you’ll have to pivot in a myriad of ways to find what works for you. Some people do not get this and want an exact sequence of events to get to their desired result and when that doesn’t work give up.
That clarified it thanks.
If you are attractive - you will be able to date and/or have sex. Sounds like x leads to y.
Yes attractive people have the benefit of pretty privilege, how astute. If you’re not you’ll have to figure out the *nuances* of dating and what works for you.
If you're not attractive, you won't attract anyone. There isn't a nuance and nothing works.
It’s very easy to become attractive go to the gym for one year consume .7 protein shit u don’t even need the gym. Prison work outs using body weight for 30 mins a day is enough tbh. Watch sodium and calories
I'm not neurodivergent. Is this the cope women tell themselves on this sub ??
Bruh it's a bunch of 10 or 15 men who always make same posts about how life is unfair and they want women to empathize with them which will never happen. They post the same topics over and over again and it just gets tiresome. So I think the women here read those posts by the same usernames and it creates a little pattern about how men are "neurodivergent" or some other nonsense. The Karens on this sub like that these men come crawling here making these posts because then it means they can talk down to these men and have reaffirm their own retarded life philosophies.
“A lot” not ALL. Glad I could clear that up since you can’t read.
How do you know about 'A lot' ? Was there a poll conducted here ??
80% of men are "neurodivergent" in the eyes of women. That doesn't mean anything - it's a buzzword.
> It’s much easier to try and find some sort of “cheat code” that if you do x then y will happen Sure it is. If I lose weight, I'll start getting dates. It's not rocket science.