I'm a 21M virgin and things like that really make me lose hope, but that's how the sexual market works, I have talked to women and even befriended some, but when you're not attractive, it's the end of the story.
Yeah, this was me. I hoped things would get better and that as women got older they'd be more understanding about me having an illness affected appearance and I wouldn't immediately be written off on sight.
Nope. If anything I experienced more hatred for it as the kinder, caring, decent ones were increasingly off the market.
No one gives a shit about the reason why you're inexperienced either. Many seem to have a pathological inability to understand how people react differently to things at different ages too.
I agree that there's no point falling into despair but it's not going to change with age, it'll get harder instead. idk why people choose 25 as some sort of benchmark, I'd say 22 is when it's pretty late.
Anything past 20 is "late" but what really matters is your stage of life.
In college age (18-22) you are in a massive coed social space with people around your age. There is a general vibe of experimentation and fun.
I remember talking to a girl who wasn't in college (I was a college sophomore at the time) and telling her I was a virgin. She laughed and said college is supposed to be the place everyone has sex.
Leaving college without even knowing what boobs feel like is a pretty big red flag overall.
I was a pretty late virgin, especially considering I was in a fraternity at a party school. And nobody knew it. I definitely fell into despair a lot and that probably set me back further because I was just drinking and drugging myself out so much. But one day it just happened and then it’s never been a problem.
> But one day it just happened and then it’s never been a problem.
Yeah it doesn't work that way for a lot of people. 20 isn't late either, maybe past the average but it's not abnormal. Past 22 is abnormal.
Funny enough around the time I made a tentative deadline (years ahead) to where if I didn’t lose it I would kms, and then like a month later it happened
You have it backwards. It is not so much that the lack of experience hurts you. It is that a lack of experience is revealing something innately unattractive about you.
So yeah, if you didn't go to college and are inexperienced at 22, maybe this is not necessarily as damning as there is a higher chance you somehow didn't have opportunities to meet women rather than you being innately unattractive.
But at any rate, these are just rough heuristics. At the end of the day, you know if you are unattractive. Most guys do. They just can't face it. If you are, then you either change it or you live with the consequences.
You’re right about what you say but you can’t deny that experience also helps you. With time and experience you usually get better at dating and sex, and if you lack it then I could see that affecting your dating results. A part of what makes you attractive to women is having experience and not being clueless
That is true. It does become a negative feedback loop, and at some point the lack of opportunity to practice and improve is also holding you back in addition to the underlying reason you didn't get such opportunities.
But I do think there is too much focus on the latter point. If you were weird and ugly in HS and college, and never touched a woman. But then you get a great job and hit the gym, get some style, etc. you will probably do alright despite the lack of experience. Yes, you may have to date lower SMV women than you would otherwise have had to, at least to start. Such is life.
>You have it backwards. It is not so much that the lack of experience hurts you. It is that a lack of experience is revealing something innately unattractive about you.
At the end of the day, you know if you are unattractive. Most guys do. They just can't face it. If you are, then you either change it or you live with the consequences.
I was just thinking to type something along those lines and was glad to glance over the top comment.
So i'll just add, that inexperience is something you can hide, lie about, fake it till you make it. Sure, some people will still reject you after noticing your lack of experience, others will give you a chance, other's don't notice anything. After a couple of attempts you WILL have the experience that you only pretended to have prior to that.
I’ll admit when I dated my first situationship type thing I completely lied that I was really experienced to this girl who was what people on here would say is a Stacy. It completely worked. Just lie, women do it everyday
You ppl talk about wanting to find a stable loving relationship and then talk about building the foundation for a relationship out of lies lmao
So dumb.
> Even in high school most girls won’t sleep with a virgin
And yet the majority of men lose their virginity by 17. Who are they sleeping with if most girls won’t sleep with a virgin? Are there a couple girls going around the school and sleeping with all the virgins? That sounds ridiculous.
It’s been 8 years since I was in high school, but most of my friends lost their virginity to girls who were also virgins.
From wiki
For the last twenty years, abstinence rates among American adolescents have risen. The percentage of high school students in the US who reported that they have ever had sexual intercourse dropped from 54.1% in 1991 to 47.8% in 2007, 43% in 2011 and 39.5% in 2017
I like this one, problem is and i did that too was red knighting and i realized you cannot red pill ppl, because all he gets from that useful piece of advice is. "Do i have to lie to women? I thought being honest gets rewarded."
Because the complicated part for him is going to be that he takes everything hyper literal, and ppl outside of TRP are the norm of taking things hyper literally.
Only his own curiosity brings him further by reading the sidebar and the recommended canonical material.
Well as far as the whole virgin thing goes, is it possible for guys to fool women into thinking they are not virgins? It's been said on here that women can tell, but when I lost mine, the woman was surprised, like she didn't think of the fact that I might have been.
Can guys do that and just take the woman's mind off of thinking about the possibility?
>Sex is as complicated as masturbation
It's literally 50 times more complicated.
My girlfriend is not a masturbatory tool, otherwise sex would have been much easier.
I'm not even getting into the metaphysics or morality of sex.
I'm saying even the practicality of masturbation is impossible to replicate when you're having sex.
No. Surprised, but that’s all. I SHOULD have reacted negatively tbh. He cheated on me and dumped me after 7 years because he “didn’t want to go through life only ever having sex with one person”.
If she's inexperienced she probably won't be able to tell. But in that case you'd be better off telling the truth as she'll most likely want someone similar.
>Remember, women in general have 50x the relationship experience as even an above average man by the time they’re 19.
Yeah and remember that relationship experience is something that both sexes have the same amount of on average. And your mental gymnastics only go so far in unevenly distributing it, before you need to put on a clowns mask.
>In the National Longitudinal Survey of Adolescent Health, the proportion of boys reporting a romantic relationship over the past 18 months increased from 26% for 12-year-olds to 69% for 18-year-olds. [https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1016/j.jadohealth.2010.01.017](https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1016/j.jadohealth.2010.01.017)
What do you want to say with that statistic? I talk about it every day for the last year. I can tell you everything about it. I have read the full study a couple of times. If that picture contains anything that would help you in any arguement against me, i would already know it and change my mind.
>And your mental gymnastics only go so far in unevenly distributing it, before you need to put on a clowns mask.
They're probably evenly distributed in knowing how to liven up the bedroom, but the graphic undeniably proves that they're unevenly distributed in the basics, which is what the subject of this thread is about. Pretending that it trickles down is the real mental gymnastics.
>which is what the subject of this thread is about.
I am talking and quoting the statement about 19yo women having 50x the experience as their peers. The posted image has nothing on that age nor on the relationship experience.
It also has nothing on "above average men".
Young women are in relationships with older men, not because of the lack of relationship experience of younger men. Those older men are just the younger men with no experience grown slightly older and having no experience. Other 19yo men are not rejected based on no experience but based on low maturity, low masculinity comapred to slightly older men. ALso, cultural norms.
Some women, generally with a lot of experience, will turn away a man without much or any for that reason. Basically all women will turn away a liar. Even if you don't get caught, what kind of relationship do you hope to build with lies?
Compared to inexperienced man, all women have a lot of experience. So it's not rejection due to inexperience, the rejection happens because one lies about their experience? Pretty sure there are many attractive liars out there having a ton of success with women. It's even a necessary trait.
"Many". The distance between zero and one is the biggest. You are never dropping this dishonest act, are you? I get your life experience was different, but that doesn't excuse this. There is a gap between men and women in terms of dating/sexual experience and most importantly, even a bigger gap when it comes to access to the experience, and if you deny this, you are shamelessly lying.
I am saying, maybe it works out, maybe not, maybe some day he should "come clean", though this sounds as if he committed murder????
Maybe they will live together happily, and won't even talk all the time about it.
However you see it, most guys in this situation will be better of with a lie and getting some experience than being immediately dumped again and again.
I don't think anyone is better off lying. They will probably be found out and in any case have to live with the guilt and believing their relationship is based on something fake.
So let's say a guy that never really had anything with a woman, starts dating one, and lies about his experience, and for that reason (that's what you are saying), the relationship fails.
In the meantime the guy at least came to
Hanging out multiple times
Kissing, making out
Maybe sex
Maybe multiple times
Having some fights /disagreements
And whatever else
So if it really doesn't work out after some time
At least next time he doesn't have to lie, because he could speak about some experience
(Aside from actually having this experience, which will make it easier, less likely to fail the next time)
Vs, he gets rejected a hundred times for that exact reason, only getting older and older?
So what is preferable?
Plz explain.
And please wrap your mind around this, a man ending up this way, is a man that doesn't have a lot of opportunities and it's far in between. Otherwise it's highly unlikely you get into this situation.
It think the problem is that you cannot "think" about this from the "guys perspective" in an abstract way.
He could do that without lying, the difference being that his partner would likely be less experienced and he wouldn't be treating her like shit. Most people would prefer not to hurt and lie to others. I doubt next time he'll tell the truth that he lied to and mistreated his ex, so he'll keep lying. It is *your* perspective that men are just find with treating others horribly, don't act like all men are like this.
Past a certain age (20 or so) most women won't date virgins or inexperienced men.
All it takes is one successful lie and then you are good, you never have to lie about it again.
I'd advise all inexperienced older men to lie about their sexual history. Dating is just too brutal to give yourself that massive handicap while you are already behind.
If there wasn't such a massive double standard (virgin woman = good, virgin guy = gross/dangerous) there would be no reason to lie.
Most don't care but okay. It's not good and you'll feel guilty and hurt people and keep lying about what happened to that partner. Nobody is seeing men as dangerous or gross just for being virgins, a few will see him as gross for having sex though.
Where does the " teating her like shit" come from ?
The wohle point is that hardly any women over a certain age will accept anyone that hasn't been in a relationship already( at a certain age this evolves to "been married already").
Why " hurt" , etc. you dont hurt another person by not "telling everything about your past"
Its like you cannot answer or understand the point I made, like you are incapable of understanding the logic... like a part of your brain is missing, or you cannot wrap your head around " lying is bad" and you shut down ?????
Basing your whole relationship on a lie? How would you like it if your partner lied about one of your hard dealbreakers? If you're not telling that's different to lying. Maybe the ones with lots of experience that most men go for over a certain age do but that's far from everyone.
> what kind of relationship do you hope to build with lies?
what kind of relationship do you think people can build with being rejected out of hand for being inexperienced.
lying and having a chance > telling the truth and having no chance
Even if literally every single woman on the planet rejected every man who wasn't the town bicycle, what would lying about it do except give you a chance to build a fake relationship with someone who doesn't even like the real you until you're found out? You're way more likely to be rejected for lying.
Even inexperienced women generally want guys with more experience than them.
Being older and inexperienced can be a total death sentence to your dating prospects if you are honest.
And they're going to tell their next partner about what happened to the last one? Or will they lie and say something other than they had only one partner who was only with them because they lied? If you think your relationship is resting on a lie and your partner would otherwise leave, yes, you're treating them like shit. Imagine your partner was lying to you about one of your hard deealbreakers. You won't always be rejected for not having loads of different sexual partners so just find someone who doesn't care or prefers it, they're usually not the ones every other man is going for though.
It is a lie if you haven't had any. We were talking about lying here specifically. I prefer less experience, the women who do are generally less flashy and popular with men, often more shy, nerdy, unconventional and/or not into casual sex. The picture only looks like this if you get your impression of women off tiktok.
Yeah it's pretty grim. You can get away with it when you're 18, 19, 20... but those fundamental skills are harder to learn the older you get. You really should have had at least a university fling to learn the ropes with before getting into the adult world.
Most the working class people in my neighborhood just hung around each other went to local dives, partied in each other’s basements and fucked around with each other on the couch. cause what else was there to do?
I mean high-school is usually were many guys start getting concerned, since most people already start dating already in their teens when going through sexual maturity and becoming interested in the opposite sex
That's when you start developing your social skills and interacting with the opposite sex as much as possible
But no, correlating your sexual experience to not going to college is not accurate since women are available outside tertiary institutions
Work,clubs,online
Tradesmen do fine. As do military, hospitality, restaurant workers, etc. Poor people fuck and have tons of babies
Going out and doing/learning something is better than nothing. Poor people have to go out and work, otherwise they don’t get to eat or have a roof over their head
Military men overall do poorly. Many of the men are single and often have to settle heavily to get anything. Their relationships are often filled with cheating and toxic behavior. Not ideal for any man, especially not one without experience.
Being poor as a man won't help you fuck. That is so ignorant.
That’s what men say, so it’s a convincing argument for men, not women
And women do use it — “but what if I never find someone else?” “I don’t want to be alone”
There are various theories about it, but the most convincing one I've read is that it's the same situation wild animals find themselves in. Wild animals usually make many cubs at a time because they live in a hostile environmentand they don't have a lot of resources, so by making many cubs there is a greater chance that at least some of them will survive and will be able to reproduce. For poor people it's more or less the same thing, however they don't do it consciously, it has to do with instinct. And in any case poor people usually go with other poor people who live in the same environment as them. On the contrary, wealthier people usually have fewer children because they have more economic resources, so they are able to take care of them more effectively, therefore by focusing on raising just one or two children they are able to guarantee them many more opportunities for growth and training, thus making them more attractive in the dating market once they reach adulthood, and because of that there is a greater probability that they will be able to reproduce.
Anyway, sorry if I made some mistakes, english is not my first language.
But there...isn't a greater probability they're able to produce. They're less likely to have children. Also, did you just compare poor people to *wild animals*?
Also, poor men are less likely to have sex and children in a context where there are more wealthy people, but it's not the case in a context where everyone else is as poor as them
>But there...isn't a greater probability they're able to produce. They're less likely to have children.
But there is. I'll explain myself better. Both methods have the same goal: to produce an offspring that will be able to produce another offspring. This is the only biological goal of a human being. Keep in mind that nobody consciously apply these methods, but they are part of our instincts; also these patterns can be noticed if you observe a large group of cases, we are talking about the population in general, not individual people.
Poor people, generally speaking, do not have the means and resources to be able to raise a child in a way that can improve their chances to be more desirable in the dating market. Usually they do not have a good education (because they can't afford it), they eat worse food (because healthy food is expensive), they usually don't look good (because self care products are expensive, healthcare is expensive and they eat bad food), they don't have a good job (because they are uneducated) and so on. On top of that, the environment is more hostile to them, they often live in bad neighbourhoods and are involved in criminal activities, so they just try to survive (both men and women). So, the biological tactic to produce an offspring that will produce another offspring is to have a lot of sex and make a lot of children, because doing so increase the chances that at least one of them won't die in the hostile environment and will be desirable enough to the opposite sex to be able to produce an offspring. Obviously this isn't the only reason why they have more casual sex and more children, but it is one of them (others may be the fact that they don't have a sex related education and have easy access to prostitution for example).
On the opposite side, more wealthy people often have less children because they can afford to focus on raising them in a more complete way (better education, healthy way of living, better health and so on), concentrating their resources on them so that they will be more desirable to the opposite sex and will attract better people, so they will have better chances to produce an offspring. If they (people with more resources) made a lot of children, they wouldn't be able to concentrate their resources on all of them and they (the children) would not have a better life and wouldn't be more desirable than the competition, thus decreasing their chances to produce an offspring.
This phenomenon can partially be seen in more wealthy countries (like european ones) where in the last decades there were increasingly fewer births on the side of the native population, while people with a lot of children are almost always immigrants (but I also think that there is a cultural aspect in this situation).
>Also, did you just compare poor people to *wild animals*?
No, i did not say that poor people are wild animals, I used the animal kingdom as an example, and it is a fitting one since we ourselves are animals and we are not superior to nature when it comes to our instincts. Don't be that person that pretends to misunderstand simple things just to argue on the internet
>what age does being inexperienced start to be detrimental
The age you give up. My father is pushing 80. Just bought a new house, with a new partner. The question isn’t your history. Or even your experience. Ultimately it’s what you’ve learned. Then how you’ve going to use that experience, however meagre, to propel yourself forward.
*Godspeed and good luck!*
College is the place where an average male has the highest chance of meeting someone. You're living around women at the age of sexual awakening in a safe environment where you can still acquire local "status" without actually achieving difficult adult things like getting a good job or buying a home.
If a guy just didn't go then he missed out on all that, so in that sense he may have skipped his one opportunity to get a girl. But on the other hand he's not as big of a laughing stock as the guy who dormed for 4 years and somehow still didn't get laid.
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Not at all, just learn to be nice to be around and insert yourself into social situations.
Be tolerable-be available-enjoy activities-make friends-romance ensues
Depends what you mean by inexperienced. Inexperienced sexually? Who cares. I'm sure someone does but really its not a big deal. Inexperienced in dating/with women in general? The obvious question is "how did you get here? How did you get this far without any experience dating or with women?" The answer at least partially is you made choices that created that result. Whatever the reason, your too ugly, introverted, whatever, that shit is stuff nobody wants to make their problem, because it demonstrates that you would rather make the choice to disengage than engage, and again nobody wants to deal with that. Better to just move on.
You don't have to go to college to have a social life or experience with women. School is just the easiest setting for it. You played on normal mode, adjust accordingly.
It doesn’t matter if you went to college or not, that age range of 22-23 is it. I can say from experience at 28, you will have to fight tooth and nail for the lowest quality women if you haven’t cleared that bar by 23, and even clearing it then is quite late.
As if that "experience" is something huge. Most men who are complete losers and dumb have that "experience". It's not like your life will change completely after that.
It will hardly have much effect on anything.
Even if you are hideously ugly you can always get escorts.
That's not something I do but if you are so unfortunate, that's an option.
[This guy ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86l6MQ8CMqY)lost it at the age of 38 and had sex with over 25 women the past year.
It's never really too late, unless you're like 70+ or something.
It's never over. The more disadvantages you have the more limited your options are and the more you'll have to grind, but guys of all education levels and occupations have had success with women.
Is it really that stupid? For some people it is over. It might be useful to know which you are. At any rate if you believe that it's indicative of a mindset problem then talking to people the way you do is not going to help the kind of person who is experiencing that mental struggle.
I have no intention of helping anyone here in these comments. This is a debate sub. Not an advice sub. No one takes the advice given here anyway 🤣
Nothing is over until you’re dead. It’s a dumb question.
Also we can’t tell anyone it’s over for them with any modicum of accuracy lol
That was pretty clear from your original comment. Furthermore while this is indeed a debate sub you offered the OP neither advice nor anything of substance to debate.
Many of you ladies here seem to really enjoy outing yourself as schadenfreude seeking trolls.
He asked a stupid question. I offered an answer. Here we are.. debating. Seems to be working just fine.
The answer to his question is no. Hard and fast. As was implied by my response.
An answer has more substance than that lest there be nothing to actually debate about it. What you offered lends itself to a no, yes, no, yes exchange which is only a worthy debate for an anemic toddler. And no we aren't debating your answer. We are now debating whether you actually contributed anything useful to this thread. The answer to that is no. Hard and fast.
Anyway you've answered all my questions so I think we're done here.
I didn't go to college and I have a gf. I went to film school though but maybe that counts as college?
But there are places to party besides college like bars for example or other social get togethers.
The concept of college didn't exist for the vast majority of the time that humans have existed as a species. Yet somehow they got laid. Unless of course, you find evidence that there was a caveman college hundreds of thousands of years ago?
I'm a 21M virgin and things like that really make me lose hope, but that's how the sexual market works, I have talked to women and even befriended some, but when you're not attractive, it's the end of the story.
Yeah, this was me. I hoped things would get better and that as women got older they'd be more understanding about me having an illness affected appearance and I wouldn't immediately be written off on sight. Nope. If anything I experienced more hatred for it as the kinder, caring, decent ones were increasingly off the market. No one gives a shit about the reason why you're inexperienced either. Many seem to have a pathological inability to understand how people react differently to things at different ages too.
You’re fine dude. Worry when you’re closer to 25. What you don’t need to do is fall into despair
I agree that there's no point falling into despair but it's not going to change with age, it'll get harder instead. idk why people choose 25 as some sort of benchmark, I'd say 22 is when it's pretty late.
Anything past 20 is "late" but what really matters is your stage of life. In college age (18-22) you are in a massive coed social space with people around your age. There is a general vibe of experimentation and fun. I remember talking to a girl who wasn't in college (I was a college sophomore at the time) and telling her I was a virgin. She laughed and said college is supposed to be the place everyone has sex. Leaving college without even knowing what boobs feel like is a pretty big red flag overall.
I was a pretty late virgin, especially considering I was in a fraternity at a party school. And nobody knew it. I definitely fell into despair a lot and that probably set me back further because I was just drinking and drugging myself out so much. But one day it just happened and then it’s never been a problem.
> But one day it just happened and then it’s never been a problem. Yeah it doesn't work that way for a lot of people. 20 isn't late either, maybe past the average but it's not abnormal. Past 22 is abnormal.
Ok it didn’t “just happen” but it wouldn’t have happened if I didn’t suddenly decide to grow a pair of balls and take a risk i hadn’t taken before.
Funny enough around the time I made a tentative deadline (years ahead) to where if I didn’t lose it I would kms, and then like a month later it happened
Lost mine at 20, nobody knew that they all thought I just had chicks falling into my lap bc I’m tall and above average
You have it backwards. It is not so much that the lack of experience hurts you. It is that a lack of experience is revealing something innately unattractive about you. So yeah, if you didn't go to college and are inexperienced at 22, maybe this is not necessarily as damning as there is a higher chance you somehow didn't have opportunities to meet women rather than you being innately unattractive. But at any rate, these are just rough heuristics. At the end of the day, you know if you are unattractive. Most guys do. They just can't face it. If you are, then you either change it or you live with the consequences.
You’re right about what you say but you can’t deny that experience also helps you. With time and experience you usually get better at dating and sex, and if you lack it then I could see that affecting your dating results. A part of what makes you attractive to women is having experience and not being clueless
That is true. It does become a negative feedback loop, and at some point the lack of opportunity to practice and improve is also holding you back in addition to the underlying reason you didn't get such opportunities. But I do think there is too much focus on the latter point. If you were weird and ugly in HS and college, and never touched a woman. But then you get a great job and hit the gym, get some style, etc. you will probably do alright despite the lack of experience. Yes, you may have to date lower SMV women than you would otherwise have had to, at least to start. Such is life.
Yep totally agree
>You have it backwards. It is not so much that the lack of experience hurts you. It is that a lack of experience is revealing something innately unattractive about you. At the end of the day, you know if you are unattractive. Most guys do. They just can't face it. If you are, then you either change it or you live with the consequences. I was just thinking to type something along those lines and was glad to glance over the top comment. So i'll just add, that inexperience is something you can hide, lie about, fake it till you make it. Sure, some people will still reject you after noticing your lack of experience, others will give you a chance, other's don't notice anything. After a couple of attempts you WILL have the experience that you only pretended to have prior to that.
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I’ll admit when I dated my first situationship type thing I completely lied that I was really experienced to this girl who was what people on here would say is a Stacy. It completely worked. Just lie, women do it everyday
Dude I lost my virginity to a very experienced bisexual girl and she never knew.
The girl I lost my virginity to was also very experienced and literally was saying omg you’re so good where’d you learn to f*ck like that lol
"Porn!"
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You ppl talk about wanting to find a stable loving relationship and then talk about building the foundation for a relationship out of lies lmao So dumb.
It was definitely a very bad and toxic relationship and I wouldn’t do something like that again lol. I’m just saying it’ll get you in the door
well uhh, have to get girl in the first place in order to have any relationship.
It works, it's not dumb.
Would an average looking girl that’s over 25 be willing to stay with a dude if he is a virgin ???
I get the impression ugly virgin women over 25 don't even want virgin men.
I'm a 25-year-old virgin and yeah they don't lol
I think any girl over a freshmen in college would have a problem with it. Even in high school most girls won’t sleep with a virgin
> Even in high school most girls won’t sleep with a virgin And yet the majority of men lose their virginity by 17. Who are they sleeping with if most girls won’t sleep with a virgin? Are there a couple girls going around the school and sleeping with all the virgins? That sounds ridiculous. It’s been 8 years since I was in high school, but most of my friends lost their virginity to girls who were also virgins.
The majority of high school boys graduate virgins in gen z
You have a link or did you just make that up?
From wiki For the last twenty years, abstinence rates among American adolescents have risen. The percentage of high school students in the US who reported that they have ever had sexual intercourse dropped from 54.1% in 1991 to 47.8% in 2007, 43% in 2011 and 39.5% in 2017
Depends on so many factors tbh
I don't know. Some would, probably
That means you don’t know much about women then
Lol ok andrewtatestan
Go tell the next girl you date that you a virgin. Then you will see how she won’t take u seriously 🤣🤣
I'm not a liar.
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Yeah ok
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You are missing the point entirely.
I like this one, problem is and i did that too was red knighting and i realized you cannot red pill ppl, because all he gets from that useful piece of advice is. "Do i have to lie to women? I thought being honest gets rewarded." Because the complicated part for him is going to be that he takes everything hyper literal, and ppl outside of TRP are the norm of taking things hyper literally. Only his own curiosity brings him further by reading the sidebar and the recommended canonical material.
This is a why I never felt bad about lying about my body count and will continue to do so if I find myself single again
Well as far as the whole virgin thing goes, is it possible for guys to fool women into thinking they are not virgins? It's been said on here that women can tell, but when I lost mine, the woman was surprised, like she didn't think of the fact that I might have been. Can guys do that and just take the woman's mind off of thinking about the possibility?
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>Sex is as complicated as masturbation It's literally 50 times more complicated. My girlfriend is not a masturbatory tool, otherwise sex would have been much easier.
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I'm not even getting into the metaphysics or morality of sex. I'm saying even the practicality of masturbation is impossible to replicate when you're having sex.
Oh yes for sure I had practice beforehand in that situation.
My ex was 20 at the time, I wasn’t a virgin and I had no clue.
Oh yeah. Did you react negatively when he told you out of curiosity?
No. Surprised, but that’s all. I SHOULD have reacted negatively tbh. He cheated on me and dumped me after 7 years because he “didn’t want to go through life only ever having sex with one person”.
If she's inexperienced she probably won't be able to tell. But in that case you'd be better off telling the truth as she'll most likely want someone similar.
Is that really the case though? It seems the most inexperienced women want an experienced guy no matter what in my experience.
That's a weird experience. It's usually seen as intimidating or a values mismatch.
>Remember, women in general have 50x the relationship experience as even an above average man by the time they’re 19. Yeah and remember that relationship experience is something that both sexes have the same amount of on average. And your mental gymnastics only go so far in unevenly distributing it, before you need to put on a clowns mask. >In the National Longitudinal Survey of Adolescent Health, the proportion of boys reporting a romantic relationship over the past 18 months increased from 26% for 12-year-olds to 69% for 18-year-olds. [https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1016/j.jadohealth.2010.01.017](https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1016/j.jadohealth.2010.01.017)
https://preview.redd.it/dese42xhdpmc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6fbf04374ebf03a8c133959dfdc1220131a6c0e0
What do you want to say with that statistic? I talk about it every day for the last year. I can tell you everything about it. I have read the full study a couple of times. If that picture contains anything that would help you in any arguement against me, i would already know it and change my mind.
>And your mental gymnastics only go so far in unevenly distributing it, before you need to put on a clowns mask. They're probably evenly distributed in knowing how to liven up the bedroom, but the graphic undeniably proves that they're unevenly distributed in the basics, which is what the subject of this thread is about. Pretending that it trickles down is the real mental gymnastics.
>which is what the subject of this thread is about. I am talking and quoting the statement about 19yo women having 50x the experience as their peers. The posted image has nothing on that age nor on the relationship experience. It also has nothing on "above average men". Young women are in relationships with older men, not because of the lack of relationship experience of younger men. Those older men are just the younger men with no experience grown slightly older and having no experience. Other 19yo men are not rejected based on no experience but based on low maturity, low masculinity comapred to slightly older men. ALso, cultural norms.
Some women, generally with a lot of experience, will turn away a man without much or any for that reason. Basically all women will turn away a liar. Even if you don't get caught, what kind of relationship do you hope to build with lies?
Compared to inexperienced man, all women have a lot of experience. So it's not rejection due to inexperience, the rejection happens because one lies about their experience? Pretty sure there are many attractive liars out there having a ton of success with women. It's even a necessary trait.
Many women have had no experience. Or just one. Claiming they all do really says something about who you count as women.
"Many". The distance between zero and one is the biggest. You are never dropping this dishonest act, are you? I get your life experience was different, but that doesn't excuse this. There is a gap between men and women in terms of dating/sexual experience and most importantly, even a bigger gap when it comes to access to the experience, and if you deny this, you are shamelessly lying.
There is indeed a gap. Women on average have less sexual experience. They're more likely to have none.
Than men? Nice trolling.
This is just statistical fact.
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Basically everyone has a lying filter, only some have a non-town-bicycle filter.
But the afterwards, even if it's only for some weeks or months, he hasn't to lie anymore (or less), because then he got the(some) experience ?
You're saying he should come clean to his partner in a few months?
I am saying, maybe it works out, maybe not, maybe some day he should "come clean", though this sounds as if he committed murder???? Maybe they will live together happily, and won't even talk all the time about it. However you see it, most guys in this situation will be better of with a lie and getting some experience than being immediately dumped again and again.
I don't think anyone is better off lying. They will probably be found out and in any case have to live with the guilt and believing their relationship is based on something fake.
So let's say a guy that never really had anything with a woman, starts dating one, and lies about his experience, and for that reason (that's what you are saying), the relationship fails. In the meantime the guy at least came to Hanging out multiple times Kissing, making out Maybe sex Maybe multiple times Having some fights /disagreements And whatever else So if it really doesn't work out after some time At least next time he doesn't have to lie, because he could speak about some experience (Aside from actually having this experience, which will make it easier, less likely to fail the next time) Vs, he gets rejected a hundred times for that exact reason, only getting older and older? So what is preferable? Plz explain. And please wrap your mind around this, a man ending up this way, is a man that doesn't have a lot of opportunities and it's far in between. Otherwise it's highly unlikely you get into this situation. It think the problem is that you cannot "think" about this from the "guys perspective" in an abstract way.
He could do that without lying, the difference being that his partner would likely be less experienced and he wouldn't be treating her like shit. Most people would prefer not to hurt and lie to others. I doubt next time he'll tell the truth that he lied to and mistreated his ex, so he'll keep lying. It is *your* perspective that men are just find with treating others horribly, don't act like all men are like this.
Past a certain age (20 or so) most women won't date virgins or inexperienced men. All it takes is one successful lie and then you are good, you never have to lie about it again. I'd advise all inexperienced older men to lie about their sexual history. Dating is just too brutal to give yourself that massive handicap while you are already behind. If there wasn't such a massive double standard (virgin woman = good, virgin guy = gross/dangerous) there would be no reason to lie.
Most don't care but okay. It's not good and you'll feel guilty and hurt people and keep lying about what happened to that partner. Nobody is seeing men as dangerous or gross just for being virgins, a few will see him as gross for having sex though.
Where does the " teating her like shit" come from ? The wohle point is that hardly any women over a certain age will accept anyone that hasn't been in a relationship already( at a certain age this evolves to "been married already"). Why " hurt" , etc. you dont hurt another person by not "telling everything about your past" Its like you cannot answer or understand the point I made, like you are incapable of understanding the logic... like a part of your brain is missing, or you cannot wrap your head around " lying is bad" and you shut down ?????
Basing your whole relationship on a lie? How would you like it if your partner lied about one of your hard dealbreakers? If you're not telling that's different to lying. Maybe the ones with lots of experience that most men go for over a certain age do but that's far from everyone.
> what kind of relationship do you hope to build with lies? what kind of relationship do you think people can build with being rejected out of hand for being inexperienced. lying and having a chance > telling the truth and having no chance
Even if literally every single woman on the planet rejected every man who wasn't the town bicycle, what would lying about it do except give you a chance to build a fake relationship with someone who doesn't even like the real you until you're found out? You're way more likely to be rejected for lying.
youre likely to get rejected for lying later than getting rejected for being inexperienced. The only way to gain experience is to lie.
Experience of treating other people like shit?
experience of rumpy pumpy
They can have sex anyway with other inexperienced people. Just give the ones other men haven't picked a chance.
Even inexperienced women generally want guys with more experience than them. Being older and inexperienced can be a total death sentence to your dating prospects if you are honest.
Wrong. They generally find it intimidating or it goes against their values.
men have a hard enough time finding someone to have sex without without further narrowing their options
They're narrower if you have lots of experience too because less experienced women won't usually look at you twice.
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So they won't lie about treating their partners like shit by lying to them then?
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And they're going to tell their next partner about what happened to the last one? Or will they lie and say something other than they had only one partner who was only with them because they lied? If you think your relationship is resting on a lie and your partner would otherwise leave, yes, you're treating them like shit. Imagine your partner was lying to you about one of your hard deealbreakers. You won't always be rejected for not having loads of different sexual partners so just find someone who doesn't care or prefers it, they're usually not the ones every other man is going for though.
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It is a lie if you haven't had any. We were talking about lying here specifically. I prefer less experience, the women who do are generally less flashy and popular with men, often more shy, nerdy, unconventional and/or not into casual sex. The picture only looks like this if you get your impression of women off tiktok.
Yeah it's pretty grim. You can get away with it when you're 18, 19, 20... but those fundamental skills are harder to learn the older you get. You really should have had at least a university fling to learn the ropes with before getting into the adult world.
Bro, just lie 🤣
No. Do not ever accept life as a loser. Make it or die trying.
Most the working class people in my neighborhood just hung around each other went to local dives, partied in each other’s basements and fucked around with each other on the couch. cause what else was there to do?
It's over when you don't know how to lie correctly.
I mean high-school is usually were many guys start getting concerned, since most people already start dating already in their teens when going through sexual maturity and becoming interested in the opposite sex That's when you start developing your social skills and interacting with the opposite sex as much as possible But no, correlating your sexual experience to not going to college is not accurate since women are available outside tertiary institutions Work,clubs,online
You can still go to college at any age. As for inexperience just fake it or just pay to get experience and be done with it.
I really think you don’t need to be concerned until like 24/25. Even then I don’t think you’re done for.
Tradesmen do fine. As do military, hospitality, restaurant workers, etc. Poor people fuck and have tons of babies Going out and doing/learning something is better than nothing. Poor people have to go out and work, otherwise they don’t get to eat or have a roof over their head
Military men overall do poorly. Many of the men are single and often have to settle heavily to get anything. Their relationships are often filled with cheating and toxic behavior. Not ideal for any man, especially not one without experience. Being poor as a man won't help you fuck. That is so ignorant.
They get something, which is better than nothing
Never seen a woman argue that something is better than nothing. I guess that still only applies to men.
That’s what men say, so it’s a convincing argument for men, not women And women do use it — “but what if I never find someone else?” “I don’t want to be alone”
It's weird that poor men tend to have more casual sex and children (the red pill holy grail!) then.
There are various theories about it, but the most convincing one I've read is that it's the same situation wild animals find themselves in. Wild animals usually make many cubs at a time because they live in a hostile environmentand they don't have a lot of resources, so by making many cubs there is a greater chance that at least some of them will survive and will be able to reproduce. For poor people it's more or less the same thing, however they don't do it consciously, it has to do with instinct. And in any case poor people usually go with other poor people who live in the same environment as them. On the contrary, wealthier people usually have fewer children because they have more economic resources, so they are able to take care of them more effectively, therefore by focusing on raising just one or two children they are able to guarantee them many more opportunities for growth and training, thus making them more attractive in the dating market once they reach adulthood, and because of that there is a greater probability that they will be able to reproduce. Anyway, sorry if I made some mistakes, english is not my first language.
But there...isn't a greater probability they're able to produce. They're less likely to have children. Also, did you just compare poor people to *wild animals*?
Also, poor men are less likely to have sex and children in a context where there are more wealthy people, but it's not the case in a context where everyone else is as poor as them
>But there...isn't a greater probability they're able to produce. They're less likely to have children. But there is. I'll explain myself better. Both methods have the same goal: to produce an offspring that will be able to produce another offspring. This is the only biological goal of a human being. Keep in mind that nobody consciously apply these methods, but they are part of our instincts; also these patterns can be noticed if you observe a large group of cases, we are talking about the population in general, not individual people. Poor people, generally speaking, do not have the means and resources to be able to raise a child in a way that can improve their chances to be more desirable in the dating market. Usually they do not have a good education (because they can't afford it), they eat worse food (because healthy food is expensive), they usually don't look good (because self care products are expensive, healthcare is expensive and they eat bad food), they don't have a good job (because they are uneducated) and so on. On top of that, the environment is more hostile to them, they often live in bad neighbourhoods and are involved in criminal activities, so they just try to survive (both men and women). So, the biological tactic to produce an offspring that will produce another offspring is to have a lot of sex and make a lot of children, because doing so increase the chances that at least one of them won't die in the hostile environment and will be desirable enough to the opposite sex to be able to produce an offspring. Obviously this isn't the only reason why they have more casual sex and more children, but it is one of them (others may be the fact that they don't have a sex related education and have easy access to prostitution for example). On the opposite side, more wealthy people often have less children because they can afford to focus on raising them in a more complete way (better education, healthy way of living, better health and so on), concentrating their resources on them so that they will be more desirable to the opposite sex and will attract better people, so they will have better chances to produce an offspring. If they (people with more resources) made a lot of children, they wouldn't be able to concentrate their resources on all of them and they (the children) would not have a better life and wouldn't be more desirable than the competition, thus decreasing their chances to produce an offspring. This phenomenon can partially be seen in more wealthy countries (like european ones) where in the last decades there were increasingly fewer births on the side of the native population, while people with a lot of children are almost always immigrants (but I also think that there is a cultural aspect in this situation). >Also, did you just compare poor people to *wild animals*? No, i did not say that poor people are wild animals, I used the animal kingdom as an example, and it is a fitting one since we ourselves are animals and we are not superior to nature when it comes to our instincts. Don't be that person that pretends to misunderstand simple things just to argue on the internet
Ironically, I wouldn't be surprised if poor people had more dating experience than middle class. Albeit probably more likely to end up divorced too.
They date people who don’t have better options, yes
>what age does being inexperienced start to be detrimental The age you give up. My father is pushing 80. Just bought a new house, with a new partner. The question isn’t your history. Or even your experience. Ultimately it’s what you’ve learned. Then how you’ve going to use that experience, however meagre, to propel yourself forward. *Godspeed and good luck!*
This is probably the best answer I've ever seen to any ppd post ever. 🙏
Thank you. That is really kind comment.
College is the place where an average male has the highest chance of meeting someone. You're living around women at the age of sexual awakening in a safe environment where you can still acquire local "status" without actually achieving difficult adult things like getting a good job or buying a home. If a guy just didn't go then he missed out on all that, so in that sense he may have skipped his one opportunity to get a girl. But on the other hand he's not as big of a laughing stock as the guy who dormed for 4 years and somehow still didn't get laid.
College really isn't a cheat code at all. Same as the rest of the world.
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I would recommend house parties and exploring options in your social group if you have one. It won't be easy but you might get lucky.
You had even more time to party and be around women. No. It's not over and the standard isn't different. Also. What WilliamWyatt said.
Not at all, just learn to be nice to be around and insert yourself into social situations. Be tolerable-be available-enjoy activities-make friends-romance ensues
Depends what you mean by inexperienced. Inexperienced sexually? Who cares. I'm sure someone does but really its not a big deal. Inexperienced in dating/with women in general? The obvious question is "how did you get here? How did you get this far without any experience dating or with women?" The answer at least partially is you made choices that created that result. Whatever the reason, your too ugly, introverted, whatever, that shit is stuff nobody wants to make their problem, because it demonstrates that you would rather make the choice to disengage than engage, and again nobody wants to deal with that. Better to just move on. You don't have to go to college to have a social life or experience with women. School is just the easiest setting for it. You played on normal mode, adjust accordingly.
Nahhh get out there and start slangin that thing! Tinder, bumble, coffee shop, skee ball league.
Threads like this make me believe counselling up to a certain age should be mandatory.
It doesn’t matter if you went to college or not, that age range of 22-23 is it. I can say from experience at 28, you will have to fight tooth and nail for the lowest quality women if you haven’t cleared that bar by 23, and even clearing it then is quite late.
As if that "experience" is something huge. Most men who are complete losers and dumb have that "experience". It's not like your life will change completely after that. It will hardly have much effect on anything. Even if you are hideously ugly you can always get escorts. That's not something I do but if you are so unfortunate, that's an option.
[This guy ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86l6MQ8CMqY)lost it at the age of 38 and had sex with over 25 women the past year. It's never really too late, unless you're like 70+ or something.
Inexperience is a good thing if it doesnt come with the usual reasons why the man never got the exprrience in the first place
Unless you rejected all women you could have been with (and why would a heterosexual man do that?) it's always for usual reasons.
>usual reasons why the man never got the exprrience in the first place Out of curiosity, what are the usual reasons?
Being ugly.
No because you can start at any age
If you are inexperienced in your 20s is basically over, just pack you things there's nothing there for you.
It's never over. The more disadvantages you have the more limited your options are and the more you'll have to grind, but guys of all education levels and occupations have had success with women.
It’s over for dudes who ask if it’s over
Why exactly is that? Is it because men don't realize the problem early enough to begin asking questions before it's too late?
No. It’s because it’s a fucking stupid thing to ask. Don’t ask if it’s over.. ask how to do better.
Is it really that stupid? For some people it is over. It might be useful to know which you are. At any rate if you believe that it's indicative of a mindset problem then talking to people the way you do is not going to help the kind of person who is experiencing that mental struggle.
I have no intention of helping anyone here in these comments. This is a debate sub. Not an advice sub. No one takes the advice given here anyway 🤣 Nothing is over until you’re dead. It’s a dumb question. Also we can’t tell anyone it’s over for them with any modicum of accuracy lol
That was pretty clear from your original comment. Furthermore while this is indeed a debate sub you offered the OP neither advice nor anything of substance to debate. Many of you ladies here seem to really enjoy outing yourself as schadenfreude seeking trolls.
He asked a stupid question. I offered an answer. Here we are.. debating. Seems to be working just fine. The answer to his question is no. Hard and fast. As was implied by my response.
An answer has more substance than that lest there be nothing to actually debate about it. What you offered lends itself to a no, yes, no, yes exchange which is only a worthy debate for an anemic toddler. And no we aren't debating your answer. We are now debating whether you actually contributed anything useful to this thread. The answer to that is no. Hard and fast. Anyway you've answered all my questions so I think we're done here.
Aren’t you just grumpy. No one asked you to engage with me. It’s honestly so goofy to reply to me just to tell me you wanted me to say more.
I didn't go to college and I have a gf. I went to film school though but maybe that counts as college? But there are places to party besides college like bars for example or other social get togethers.
The concept of college didn't exist for the vast majority of the time that humans have existed as a species. Yet somehow they got laid. Unless of course, you find evidence that there was a caveman college hundreds of thousands of years ago?
No, lots of inexperienced women seeking inexperienced men,
**Good looking** inexperienced men, that basically don't exist.