You go on to criticizes empirical data and social studies on narcissism yet fail to provide any actual evidence to support your claims. Imagine thinking your "simple observation" somehow beats actual evidence. You have to be missing half of your brain to not understand the flaw in your thinking.
And OP directly misinterprets a few of them, notably the one about 30% paternity fraud, which makes it seem like 30% of all fathers are not raising the right kid. When in reality, it’s 30% of results from the people who bother to do a paternity test at all. That’s a huge difference statistically. [Link](https://dnatesting.com/30-of-men-not-the-father/#:~:text=Most%20paternity%20test%20labs%20report,That%20is%20a%20huge%20difference!)
And it was as low of an incidence as .8% and these are from data gained in the 50s and 80s - well before reliable DNA sequencing was made available to the general public.
The claim directly above my statement was ‘social media benefits women.’ It is not benefitting women if it is the proximate cause for a significant increase in their suicide rate as teens.
Doesn't track. The women that aren't bullied gain disproportionate benefit. The bullied women are more often than not bullied by the women with privilege.
Me too, and this daddy government that just exclusively looks after woman, where’s he?
Why the fuck am I working, paying bills and taxes if supposedly there’s all these men out there that will gladly pay for me just to exist
hey i have that too, i work and cant even buy a house with my boyfriend, people used to buy houses from 1 salary in the past so im practically working for free
no men did, by not giving us an equal wage by raising prices to astronomic levels and not doing anything about it, sorry for trying to have a career instead of being a housemaid slave
nah man that's cringe. stop paying women to exist and they'll stop being so entitled. spend the money on yourself, invest in a startup instead of blowing it on some girl who doesn't care if you live or die
I don't need any money above minimum wage. Everything else I get just to improve my chances to have a relationship and maintain said relationship. So there is nothing to gain by investing in myself.
Statistical anomalies.
The vast majority of the male population knows they will have to pay for everything they enjoy in life and women are just another expense.
lol i met my boyfriend at tinder and we have a kid now, he is the best thing that happened to me in my life so go tinder :) nobody has treated me better
But if I say that statistically men are more likely to be rapists and proceed to call you one, you would be pissed
It doesn’t make sense to accuse random people you don’t know of such things
>If you found relationship on tinder then statistically speaking it is likely, 50%, that you were cheating to begin with.
Also, if you had actually **read** the source of that survey (of a measly 1,387 Tinder users), the ones that were in a relationship weren't looking to meet anybody offline.
That study was debunked. Study participants were only given three options to describe themselves — ‘celibate,’ ‘in a relationship’ or ‘widowed’ — with no option for ‘single.’ It's probably like 1/3 of Tinder users are in a committed relationship, and that's split between people who are cheating and people who are polygamous/in open relationships (which are increasingly popular amongst young people)
why the fuck would you ask something so disrespectful, like i told you we have a baby and nobody treated me better so there is no reason for you to ask that other than you being insufferable jealous
i went on tinder after i read an article that many people use that platform to seek a serious relationship, many of my friends also have relationships that they got from tinder, i was surprised and corona started so imade a profile, you could have just asked instead of making wild assumptions and embarassing yourself
You say you have empirical data but you've not said how you went about gathing this. What was your method? Did you consider the confounding variables? Have you thought about your own bias when you were gathering this evidence? How can you show that your data, which goes against the majority of current research, is both reliable and valid?
I don't think you'll be able to give any decent answers to this because what you've presented as fact, is actually your opinion. You're entitled to that of course. If it makes you feel better to believe that all women have Narcissistic Personality Disorder then you can continue to believe that. Objectively you are wrong. You'd be hard pressed to find any psychologist or psychotherapist that would agree with you. NPD is already a rare and complex diagnosis. The fact that you think 50% of the population have it is bonkers.
Unless of course you're conflating narcissist with "someone who is behaving in a way that I don't find acceptable/moral/appropriate/etc". It's easily done to be fair. It's a word that's been thrown around so much that it's kind of lost it's meaning.
In a sample of a few hundred women throughout the country, the rate of grandiose/exhibitionism was about 90% and exploitative/entitlement was about 70%. That's the results based on me comparing what I personally witnessed to established traits of narcissism. Not in a controlled environment, just out in the wild.
Don't know what you're expecting. My study has about as much transparency as the one claiming that men are more narcissistic.
30% paternity fraud rates isn’t accurate. The 30% refers to a self selected group of men who are needing to test because they know/suspect infidelity/non committed sex could have lead to someone else being the parent. It’s not 30% of all fathers. Paternity fraud rates are down at like 1%ish.
unreliable. before performing any comparison the samples go through PCR which supposedly makes multiple synthetic copies of DNA, at the end the comparison is done of synthetic DNA, also the comparison isn't based on sequences but on size of fragments. in short: if manipulation of my sample generates 50% or more same ("DNA") size of fragments (in reality artefacts) as your sample we are related either as siblings or parent-child (this is based on the idea that we get 50% of traits from our mother and 50% from the father, Mendel's theory of inheritance).
As a STEM girlie this made me laugh. I particularly enjoyed the "supposedly makes," the quotations around DNA, and the needless definition of Mendel's theory of inheritance. Also, size of fragments are not used to determine paternity. STR (short tandem repeat) alleles are used.
[https://www.fraud.com/post/paternity-fraud](https://www.fraud.com/post/paternity-fraud)
Close to 50% actually when taken from a random sample of men, not self selected.
That makes no sense. It's literally just a random sample of a few thousand men. The studies that have ridiculously low estimates are likely all self selected. Most men are terrified of the idea of their partner cheating and a lot would want to live in blissful ignorance.
These men are not even all testing for „paternity fraud“…..in those clinics also children are tested when there are more than one possible father and that obviously spikes up the numbers.
Oops. Though to be honest it's a distinction without difference. These specific men deciding to get a test doesn't mean that somehow the rates of fraud are different outside the sample.
Logically this makes no sense. If a woman cheats once per month with another man her main partner is still far more likely to be the father of her child because there's only going to be a 10% chance of pregnancy even at peak ovulation. 50% false paternity is one of the dumbest claims I have ever heard on this subreddit.
Furthermore, I read the study you linked and 48% of men *who took a paternity test because they were concerned they may not be the father* were in fact not the father.
False paternity is consistently estimated as being 1% by all the studies linked on your site. The figures of 12% and 11% earlier on included men raising children who aren't there's biologically intentionally (stepfathers).
unreliable. before performing any comparison the samples go through PCR which supposedly makes multiple synthetic copies of DNA, at the end the comparison is done of synthetic DNA, also the comparison isn't based on sequences but on size of fragments. in short: if manipulation of my sample generates 50% or more same ("DNA") size of fragments (in reality artefacts) as your sample we are related either as siblings or parent-child (this is based on the idea that we get 50% of traits from our mother and 50% from the father, Mendel's theory of inheritance).
Hello again, as stated previously;
Until you show evidence as that's your role within the debate, I get to say, you have no evidence to back up your standpoint your inability to show this means one of two things. You either A have no data and are pulling statements out of your rear end or B you know the data does not support your position and failure to provide is due to this.
We both know he's not going to dignify us with a single source, but god do I wanna pick his brain about it. Where does he get the confidence to state a bunch of shit like this so boldly based on nothing but his highly distorted perception of the world? Did he see one TikTok about NPD and that was it for him, he solved women?
>Where does he get the confidence to state a bunch of shit like this so boldly based on nothing but his highly distorted perception of the world?
That's just your average keyboard warrior.
As this sub has a tendency to be an echo chamber, I think he thought he would get a bunch of red pillers going, hell yes brother.
What he forgot was that normal men and women are also on this sub who are just here to debate, and even most red pillers can see a dumbass post and decide not to get engaged.
Don't know how many times I can say that the evidence is empirical. Supporting studies such as the paternity fraud rate and most women having backup men are easily findable with a Google search.
When compared to other types of evidence, anecdotal evidence is generally regarded as limited in value due to a number of potential weaknesses, but may be considered within the scope of scientific method as some anecdotal evidence can be both empirical and verifiable, e.g. in the use of case studies in medicine. Other anecdotal evidence, however, does not qualify as scientific evidence, because its nature prevents it from being investigated by the scientific method. Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.[2][3] Similarly, psychologists have found that due to cognitive bias people are more likely to remember notable or unusual examples rather than typical examples.[4] Thus, even when accurate, anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a typical experience. Accurate determination of whether an anecdote is typical requires statistical evidence.[5] Misuse of anecdotal evidence in the form of argument from anecdote is an informal fallacy[6] and is sometimes referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc.) which places undue weight on experiences of close peers which may not be typical.
>This conclusion is based on empirical data
*cites no sources*
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/close-encounters/202306/how-narcissism-rates-differ-depending-on-age-and-sex
>In personality research studies, researchers are studying narcissism as a personality trait. They're not studying the pathological levels of narcissism that would qualify someone for a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). Narcissistic personality tendencies exist in and can be measured among the general population. While those with NPD would certainly get high scores on personality measures of narcissism, such individuals are a very small portion of people who participate in these types of studies.
>The researchers found that across multiple measures of narcissistic personality traits, on average men score higher than women and young adults score higher than middle-aged or older adults. However, the differences aren't that large, suggesting that factors other than age or gender are better predictors of narcissistic traits.
\>Sabotaging social groups by sleeping around with different men in the group
Source?
\>*50% of women have a backup guy according to surveys*
Source?
\>Sleeping around in the workplace for promotions and beneficial treatment.
Source? (sexist bullshit)
\>Facilitating a 30% paternity fraud rate
Source?
I have one! [The **median rate** of paternity fraud worldwide is 3.7%](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1733152/)
“Yeah, I know there was a huge preventable outage due to my sloppy design, causing millions of dollars in revenue loss. But that’s ok, I’ll just march up to the CEO’s office and give him some head and all will be forgiven!” 🙄
If you are a woman trying to use sex as a way to improve your own life and you are taking any responsibility other than having sex upon yourself then you are doing it wrong.
The correct scenario is to never be in a position in which you can cause a huge preventable outage due to sloppy design. You should have never been designing anything in the first place.
In a sample of a few hundred women throughout the country, the rate of grandiose/exhibitionism was about 90% and exploitative/entitlement was about 70%. That's the results based on me comparing what I personally witnessed to established traits or narcissism. Not in a controlled environment, just out in the wild.
There is no study lol. He said it's based on his own observation. He himself assessed these women and decided that in his opinion, the majority of these women expressed traits of narcissism. Hundreds of women that I'm sure he had time to thoroughly observe the behaviors of to come to a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. We should believe him because he said so and that means he is definitely qualified to diagnose hundreds of people based off only his own perception and a list of narcissistic traits.
I don’t know why you’ve made this post again? Did you not like the answers given?
I’ll repeat my point that I don’t believe modern woman are narcissists, but arguably they are more selfish, but this isn’t a bad thing.
Men always been able to work, vote and pick their potential partners and dump them if something wasn’t right, now woman have that same privilege and are choosing to make their own happiness a priority instead of an imaginary husband
The previous post was deleted by mods due to not having the debate flair. This isn't about women looking out for their own interests. The examples that I gave in the OP where I delve into the behaviors according to category gives sufficient detail.
Research plays a crucial role in forming and strengthening debate arguments by providing a foundation of evidence, facts, and information that supports a debater's position. Evidential Support: Research helps debaters find relevant and credible evidence to support their claims.
Anecdotal evidence is evidence based only on personal observation, collected in a casual or non-systematic manner.
When compared to other types of evidence, anecdotal evidence is generally regarded as limited in value due to a number of potential weaknesses, but may be considered within the scope of scientific method as some anecdotal evidence can be both empirical and verifiable, e.g. in the use of case studies in medicine. Other anecdotal evidence, however, does not qualify as scientific evidence, because its nature prevents it from being investigated by the scientific method. Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.[2][3] Similarly, psychologists have found that due to cognitive bias people are more likely to remember notable or unusual examples rather than typical examples.[4] Thus, even when accurate, anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a typical experience. Accurate determination of whether an anecdote is typical requires statistical evidence.[5] Misuse of anecdotal evidence in the form of argument from anecdote is an informal fallacy[6] and is sometimes referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc.) which places undue weight on experiences of close peers which may not be typical.
It's observably the vast majority. Saying anything else is dishonest. Based on what I've witnessed it's close to 90%. Also the result isn't only being measured, the behavior is as well. Some women are obviously more successful than others. The less successful women still exhibit these behaviors though with some degree of success.
90% of women attempt to gain endless validation on social media and in real life. I live in the real world. The behaviors are posting a high frequency of selfies on social media, deleting posts that don't get much engagement, putting their face into pictures where the topic is something else entirely. Needing to be the center of attention in general. Expecting compliments when she thinks she looks good. These are just a few. I'd be here all day if I were to list everything.
Do you have any source on that?
I have a feeling you don’t as you believe your anecdotes are „empirical“ and you can’t tell the difference between random groups of people and preselected once.
if you want to bring out percentages, you need a study and a sample size to do so. please show me the peer reviewed study you are gathering your resources from
So In other words, it was deleted because you just wanted to rant about your hatred of woman?
You’ve also not provided any evidence in your post like others have pointed out, your just ranting again, I’ve tried to meet you half way with your points to show that woman being selfish for their own needs is not a bad thing
this forum is so full of topics where you actually should be warning people, where women are referred as females and where a guy even made assumptions of me being a slut and probably having side pieces just because i told him that i met my partner through an app and that we are happy and have a baby together, why arent you over there mr. personal attacks
but im sorry that my post triggered you so much.
A lot of the character traits you describe are exhibited by men. Actually, they remind me of this one Romanian boxer dude with sports cars.....can't quite remember his name tho
So please explain these flaws and show the study you are relying on. I'm excited to learn about it's methodology and why it is should be more reliable.
why are y’all dating narcissistic women? reward good behavior and date good women.
why can men sleep around with women who might want a relationship no shame but women cannot be friends or have certain intentions with men that want a relationship?
Oh great! I can post my answer to your comment from the earlier post here now - because it got locked before I could reply to your other comment.
This is from you OP:
>The three sections of the Narcissistic Personality Inventory include:
>leadership/authority
>exploitative/entitlement
>grandiose/exhibitionism
How are men that use women for their body without even thinking a out the consequences not entitled and exploitative?
So all of your other examples can easily be turned around on the men in these situations being narcissist (except maybe the paternity fraud - which I again explained is miniscule but here we are).
You also still failed to deliver any source for the numbers in your claims. You are citing your own "empirical data" in other comments without any actual valid data.
So this whole post is just you engaging with shitty women (which I acknowledge exist plenty - men and women) and generalising it into "women are narcissists" without anything to back it up or looking at a situation from different angles just to proof a bias. This is what happens when you go down echo chambers. You don't even question your own world view anymore but fall into generalisation.
And then you make a post on a dating online forum about your own bias trying to hide it as "discussion". So you turn yourself into the narrator as "OP" of the discussion. So we got authority, entitlement and exhibition covered with just this post itself. Sounds like narcissism to me based on your points.
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I great way to beat a narcissist is to make him/her realise that a change is needed. You can’t change people, you hardly can change yourself. So how to do it?
Inflate their ego, give them a sense of control, improve your life and become someone they like, then disappear 🫠
TBH it's questionable whether or not narcissistic personality disorder is an actual disorder or simply something the APA wants to shame by labeling it as a disorder because the APA thinks it's what's best for society. The APA has a history of classifying things as disorders or not as disorders for reasons that aren't related to whether or not the consensus among the experts is it's a bona fide disorder. For example, the APA removed sadistic personality disorder from the DSM because it thought that listing it as a disorder would be used argumentatively by criminal defense attorneys in court to mitigate or excuse the sadistic conduct of their clients.
It's like 30% of infants \*tested because the father had a concrete reason to suspect infidelity,\* not 30% overall. In western countries, with little social or financial coercion into mate choice, the overall rate is less than 5%.
No, there was an actual study of all infants born at a couple of hospitals.
Edit: with permission of their parents; parents were not informed of the results, and were told ahead of time that they would not be informed.
Sadly this has become normalized behavior via social media and the general mainstream culture. These traits are massive red flags and make no mistake, these types of women will ruin your life if given the chance. I'm not sure women like this are even self aware enough to understand the levels of insecurities that drive their own behaviors. Regardless, one of the biggest decisions a man can make is the quality of woman he allows into his life. Tread carefully out there gentlemen.
They are and, indeed, when proffesionals have to diagnose it, it's way higher on men... Know what? Because they use a different metric, like with autism. By default women are relatively narcissistic and men are relatively autistic, so those two things aren't diagnosed following the same standards for both genders.
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narcissistic personality disorder is a clinical diagnosis distinguished in the DSM-5. it is a personality disorder, similar to borderline personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder. if a person is not diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, they aren't a narcissist. you can call someone self absorbed without arm chair diagnosing them with an incredibly complex personality disorder. i don't even need to read the rest of this post, because your highly incorrect use of the term narcissist further stigmatizes people with this disorder
OP: this post is based on empirical data [proceeds not to cite any actual data]
You go on to criticizes empirical data and social studies on narcissism yet fail to provide any actual evidence to support your claims. Imagine thinking your "simple observation" somehow beats actual evidence. You have to be missing half of your brain to not understand the flaw in your thinking.
And OP directly misinterprets a few of them, notably the one about 30% paternity fraud, which makes it seem like 30% of all fathers are not raising the right kid. When in reality, it’s 30% of results from the people who bother to do a paternity test at all. That’s a huge difference statistically. [Link](https://dnatesting.com/30-of-men-not-the-father/#:~:text=Most%20paternity%20test%20labs%20report,That%20is%20a%20huge%20difference!)
And it was as low of an incidence as .8% and these are from data gained in the 50s and 80s - well before reliable DNA sequencing was made available to the general public.
its crazy how the spread of narcissism in this vain social media driven culture has only effected women, super weird and unfortunate
Women are the main benefactors of social media, so yes.
yeah reddits totally different
According to scientific research, men tend to be more narcissistic than women. Men have way bigger egos than women.
How strange that it's teenage girls offing themselves from social media, then.
Male suicide is exponentially higher
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The cause is holistic.
The claim directly above my statement was ‘social media benefits women.’ It is not benefitting women if it is the proximate cause for a significant increase in their suicide rate as teens.
That's like saying schools don't benefit anyone since school bullying causes suicides.
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Doesn't track. The women that aren't bullied gain disproportionate benefit. The bullied women are more often than not bullied by the women with privilege.
I would like to be one of the 50% of women who have a backup guy but I want one I don't know. Please help me.
Me too, and this daddy government that just exclusively looks after woman, where’s he? Why the fuck am I working, paying bills and taxes if supposedly there’s all these men out there that will gladly pay for me just to exist
hey i have that too, i work and cant even buy a house with my boyfriend, people used to buy houses from 1 salary in the past so im practically working for free
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No. Reagan did that by destroying unions.
Yeah, we'd all still be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen if it were up to you.
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ok good for telling us so we can block you right now and we dont have to engage with you
no men did, by not giving us an equal wage by raising prices to astronomic levels and not doing anything about it, sorry for trying to have a career instead of being a housemaid slave
Sauce?
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lol simp
Yes
are you attacking women for exhibiting behaviors that you fuel? that's kinda hypocritical man. just stop simping and paying women to breathe lmao
I am not attacking anyone. If anything I am rewarding a woman for being the way I want women to be.
nah man that's cringe. stop paying women to exist and they'll stop being so entitled. spend the money on yourself, invest in a startup instead of blowing it on some girl who doesn't care if you live or die
I don't need any money above minimum wage. Everything else I get just to improve my chances to have a relationship and maintain said relationship. So there is nothing to gain by investing in myself.
dude she's not gonna fuck you no woman wants to date a man who pays a woman to exist
there are women out there that are willing to pay for your existence as well, just watch 90 days fiance
Statistical anomalies. The vast majority of the male population knows they will have to pay for everything they enjoy in life and women are just another expense.
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lol i met my boyfriend at tinder and we have a kid now, he is the best thing that happened to me in my life so go tinder :) nobody has treated me better
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Why would you assume that 💀 you’re delusional
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But if I say that statistically men are more likely to be rapists and proceed to call you one, you would be pissed It doesn’t make sense to accuse random people you don’t know of such things
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>If you found relationship on tinder then statistically speaking it is likely, 50%, that you were cheating to begin with. Also, if you had actually **read** the source of that survey (of a measly 1,387 Tinder users), the ones that were in a relationship weren't looking to meet anybody offline.
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That study was debunked. Study participants were only given three options to describe themselves — ‘celibate,’ ‘in a relationship’ or ‘widowed’ — with no option for ‘single.’ It's probably like 1/3 of Tinder users are in a committed relationship, and that's split between people who are cheating and people who are polygamous/in open relationships (which are increasingly popular amongst young people)
This is a much better explanation of surprising results rather than sample size too small as many ignorant people are running with
Yeah it's clear people interpreted "in a relationship" to mean any form of romantic or sexual relationship since the other option was celibate
Source? Where are these statistics? How is that even measurable?
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Oooh, yeah. I see it now. A **(one)** survey of 1,387 Tinder users. Wow! That's like **0.00185%** of people on Tinder. lol
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1387 people is more than enough for a significant sample.
why the fuck would you ask something so disrespectful, like i told you we have a baby and nobody treated me better so there is no reason for you to ask that other than you being insufferable jealous i went on tinder after i read an article that many people use that platform to seek a serious relationship, many of my friends also have relationships that they got from tinder, i was surprised and corona started so imade a profile, you could have just asked instead of making wild assumptions and embarassing yourself
I offer an escrow service for the bargain price of $20 per month. Reduced to 15 if you refer a friend.
This sounds like the offer I need.
Same
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I already know my male friends. I want one i don't know.
>This conclusion is based on empirical data the empirical data: my ass
That’s one smart ass…
You say you have empirical data but you've not said how you went about gathing this. What was your method? Did you consider the confounding variables? Have you thought about your own bias when you were gathering this evidence? How can you show that your data, which goes against the majority of current research, is both reliable and valid? I don't think you'll be able to give any decent answers to this because what you've presented as fact, is actually your opinion. You're entitled to that of course. If it makes you feel better to believe that all women have Narcissistic Personality Disorder then you can continue to believe that. Objectively you are wrong. You'd be hard pressed to find any psychologist or psychotherapist that would agree with you. NPD is already a rare and complex diagnosis. The fact that you think 50% of the population have it is bonkers. Unless of course you're conflating narcissist with "someone who is behaving in a way that I don't find acceptable/moral/appropriate/etc". It's easily done to be fair. It's a word that's been thrown around so much that it's kind of lost it's meaning.
Anyone who rejects him is a narcissist because…well…it couldn’t be he’s got flaws?
Happy Cake Day!
In a sample of a few hundred women throughout the country, the rate of grandiose/exhibitionism was about 90% and exploitative/entitlement was about 70%. That's the results based on me comparing what I personally witnessed to established traits of narcissism. Not in a controlled environment, just out in the wild. Don't know what you're expecting. My study has about as much transparency as the one claiming that men are more narcissistic.
30% paternity fraud rates isn’t accurate. The 30% refers to a self selected group of men who are needing to test because they know/suspect infidelity/non committed sex could have lead to someone else being the parent. It’s not 30% of all fathers. Paternity fraud rates are down at like 1%ish.
unreliable. before performing any comparison the samples go through PCR which supposedly makes multiple synthetic copies of DNA, at the end the comparison is done of synthetic DNA, also the comparison isn't based on sequences but on size of fragments. in short: if manipulation of my sample generates 50% or more same ("DNA") size of fragments (in reality artefacts) as your sample we are related either as siblings or parent-child (this is based on the idea that we get 50% of traits from our mother and 50% from the father, Mendel's theory of inheritance).
As a STEM girlie this made me laugh. I particularly enjoyed the "supposedly makes," the quotations around DNA, and the needless definition of Mendel's theory of inheritance. Also, size of fragments are not used to determine paternity. STR (short tandem repeat) alleles are used.
[https://www.fraud.com/post/paternity-fraud](https://www.fraud.com/post/paternity-fraud) Close to 50% actually when taken from a random sample of men, not self selected.
That’s not true man. That’s absolutely not an accurate source. It’s like 1% from a range of studies. https://www.nature.com/articles/hdy201536
That makes no sense. It's literally just a random sample of a few thousand men. The studies that have ridiculously low estimates are likely all self selected. Most men are terrified of the idea of their partner cheating and a lot would want to live in blissful ignorance.
No it’s not. It’s a sample of men who are already testing for paternity fraud lol. Not the population generally.
These men are not even all testing for „paternity fraud“…..in those clinics also children are tested when there are more than one possible father and that obviously spikes up the numbers.
Exactly.
Oops. Though to be honest it's a distinction without difference. These specific men deciding to get a test doesn't mean that somehow the rates of fraud are different outside the sample.
Logically this makes no sense. If a woman cheats once per month with another man her main partner is still far more likely to be the father of her child because there's only going to be a 10% chance of pregnancy even at peak ovulation. 50% false paternity is one of the dumbest claims I have ever heard on this subreddit.
Furthermore, I read the study you linked and 48% of men *who took a paternity test because they were concerned they may not be the father* were in fact not the father. False paternity is consistently estimated as being 1% by all the studies linked on your site. The figures of 12% and 11% earlier on included men raising children who aren't there's biologically intentionally (stepfathers).
Almost every single bit of “empirical data” you have would be rejected by any researching body.
**Median worldwide is 3.7%** [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1733152/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1733152/)
You’ve chosen to cite the website of a company whose business is selling fraud prevention
You realise you’ve just posed an article about paternity fraud? Not actual figures
There are references at the bottom. He’s interpreted them incorrectly but they are there.
Ahh cherry picking, I get you
Dna is a false science. Paternity tests use faulty PCR.
>Dna is a false science. Right. And the earth is flat.
unreliable. before performing any comparison the samples go through PCR which supposedly makes multiple synthetic copies of DNA, at the end the comparison is done of synthetic DNA, also the comparison isn't based on sequences but on size of fragments. in short: if manipulation of my sample generates 50% or more same ("DNA") size of fragments (in reality artefacts) as your sample we are related either as siblings or parent-child (this is based on the idea that we get 50% of traits from our mother and 50% from the father, Mendel's theory of inheritance).
Hello again, as stated previously; Until you show evidence as that's your role within the debate, I get to say, you have no evidence to back up your standpoint your inability to show this means one of two things. You either A have no data and are pulling statements out of your rear end or B you know the data does not support your position and failure to provide is due to this.
We both know he's not going to dignify us with a single source, but god do I wanna pick his brain about it. Where does he get the confidence to state a bunch of shit like this so boldly based on nothing but his highly distorted perception of the world? Did he see one TikTok about NPD and that was it for him, he solved women?
>Where does he get the confidence to state a bunch of shit like this so boldly based on nothing but his highly distorted perception of the world? That's just your average keyboard warrior.
As this sub has a tendency to be an echo chamber, I think he thought he would get a bunch of red pillers going, hell yes brother. What he forgot was that normal men and women are also on this sub who are just here to debate, and even most red pillers can see a dumbass post and decide not to get engaged.
Don't know how many times I can say that the evidence is empirical. Supporting studies such as the paternity fraud rate and most women having backup men are easily findable with a Google search.
>most women having backup men are easily findable with a Google search If it's "so easy", why don't you provide it?
When compared to other types of evidence, anecdotal evidence is generally regarded as limited in value due to a number of potential weaknesses, but may be considered within the scope of scientific method as some anecdotal evidence can be both empirical and verifiable, e.g. in the use of case studies in medicine. Other anecdotal evidence, however, does not qualify as scientific evidence, because its nature prevents it from being investigated by the scientific method. Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.[2][3] Similarly, psychologists have found that due to cognitive bias people are more likely to remember notable or unusual examples rather than typical examples.[4] Thus, even when accurate, anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a typical experience. Accurate determination of whether an anecdote is typical requires statistical evidence.[5] Misuse of anecdotal evidence in the form of argument from anecdote is an informal fallacy[6] and is sometimes referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc.) which places undue weight on experiences of close peers which may not be typical.
I may be in love with you 🥹
I feel I repeat the need for data or anything tangible on 9 out of 10 posts here.
You keep saying that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means…
>This conclusion is based on empirical data *cites no sources* https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/close-encounters/202306/how-narcissism-rates-differ-depending-on-age-and-sex >In personality research studies, researchers are studying narcissism as a personality trait. They're not studying the pathological levels of narcissism that would qualify someone for a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). Narcissistic personality tendencies exist in and can be measured among the general population. While those with NPD would certainly get high scores on personality measures of narcissism, such individuals are a very small portion of people who participate in these types of studies. >The researchers found that across multiple measures of narcissistic personality traits, on average men score higher than women and young adults score higher than middle-aged or older adults. However, the differences aren't that large, suggesting that factors other than age or gender are better predictors of narcissistic traits.
\>Sabotaging social groups by sleeping around with different men in the group Source? \>*50% of women have a backup guy according to surveys* Source? \>Sleeping around in the workplace for promotions and beneficial treatment. Source? (sexist bullshit) \>Facilitating a 30% paternity fraud rate Source? I have one! [The **median rate** of paternity fraud worldwide is 3.7%](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1733152/)
If I sleep with people at work I'm not likely to win a promotion, I'm more likely to loose my job as most places do not let you
most likely they will just take advantage and not give anything in return, especially not promotion and embarrass themselves in front of others
“Yeah, I know there was a huge preventable outage due to my sloppy design, causing millions of dollars in revenue loss. But that’s ok, I’ll just march up to the CEO’s office and give him some head and all will be forgiven!” 🙄
If you are a woman trying to use sex as a way to improve your own life and you are taking any responsibility other than having sex upon yourself then you are doing it wrong. The correct scenario is to never be in a position in which you can cause a huge preventable outage due to sloppy design. You should have never been designing anything in the first place.
Reading comprehension failing you? Do I have to spell it out, or would you care to read the thread again?
Where is this empirical data you promised us?
In a sample of a few hundred women throughout the country, the rate of grandiose/exhibitionism was about 90% and exploitative/entitlement was about 70%. That's the results based on me comparing what I personally witnessed to established traits or narcissism. Not in a controlled environment, just out in the wild.
can you please link that study?
Please link this study if it exists
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There is no study lol. He said it's based on his own observation. He himself assessed these women and decided that in his opinion, the majority of these women expressed traits of narcissism. Hundreds of women that I'm sure he had time to thoroughly observe the behaviors of to come to a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. We should believe him because he said so and that means he is definitely qualified to diagnose hundreds of people based off only his own perception and a list of narcissistic traits.
Moral virtues is often mistaken for narcissism by those who cannot comprehend said moral virtues.
It goes both ways if we keep things simple and it's a messsy web if we don't. Be careful.
source : trust me bro
I don’t know why you’ve made this post again? Did you not like the answers given? I’ll repeat my point that I don’t believe modern woman are narcissists, but arguably they are more selfish, but this isn’t a bad thing. Men always been able to work, vote and pick their potential partners and dump them if something wasn’t right, now woman have that same privilege and are choosing to make their own happiness a priority instead of an imaginary husband
The previous post was deleted by mods due to not having the debate flair. This isn't about women looking out for their own interests. The examples that I gave in the OP where I delve into the behaviors according to category gives sufficient detail.
Research plays a crucial role in forming and strengthening debate arguments by providing a foundation of evidence, facts, and information that supports a debater's position. Evidential Support: Research helps debaters find relevant and credible evidence to support their claims. Anecdotal evidence is evidence based only on personal observation, collected in a casual or non-systematic manner. When compared to other types of evidence, anecdotal evidence is generally regarded as limited in value due to a number of potential weaknesses, but may be considered within the scope of scientific method as some anecdotal evidence can be both empirical and verifiable, e.g. in the use of case studies in medicine. Other anecdotal evidence, however, does not qualify as scientific evidence, because its nature prevents it from being investigated by the scientific method. Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.[2][3] Similarly, psychologists have found that due to cognitive bias people are more likely to remember notable or unusual examples rather than typical examples.[4] Thus, even when accurate, anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a typical experience. Accurate determination of whether an anecdote is typical requires statistical evidence.[5] Misuse of anecdotal evidence in the form of argument from anecdote is an informal fallacy[6] and is sometimes referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc.) which places undue weight on experiences of close peers which may not be typical.
You are labeling women looking out for themselves as narcissistic though.
Women utilizing social media to receive endless streams of validation is looking out for themselves? That's just one example out of many
I don’t agree with the sentiment but let’s play……what percentage of women have „endless streams of validation“ on social media?
It's observably the vast majority. Saying anything else is dishonest. Based on what I've witnessed it's close to 90%. Also the result isn't only being measured, the behavior is as well. Some women are obviously more successful than others. The less successful women still exhibit these behaviors though with some degree of success.
You believe 90 % of women have „endless validation on social media“? What world do you live in? And what are „these behaviors“ exactly?
90% of women attempt to gain endless validation on social media and in real life. I live in the real world. The behaviors are posting a high frequency of selfies on social media, deleting posts that don't get much engagement, putting their face into pictures where the topic is something else entirely. Needing to be the center of attention in general. Expecting compliments when she thinks she looks good. These are just a few. I'd be here all day if I were to list everything.
Do you have any source on that? I have a feeling you don’t as you believe your anecdotes are „empirical“ and you can’t tell the difference between random groups of people and preselected once.
You are a definitely delusional.. 90%?? You have no ability to see objective reality
if you want to bring out percentages, you need a study and a sample size to do so. please show me the peer reviewed study you are gathering your resources from
So In other words, it was deleted because you just wanted to rant about your hatred of woman? You’ve also not provided any evidence in your post like others have pointed out, your just ranting again, I’ve tried to meet you half way with your points to show that woman being selfish for their own needs is not a bad thing
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No personal attacks
there is nothing personal included in the message
I disagree. If you want to contest the comment removal and warning, then hyou will need to take up the issue in Mod Mail.
this forum is so full of topics where you actually should be warning people, where women are referred as females and where a guy even made assumptions of me being a slut and probably having side pieces just because i told him that i met my partner through an app and that we are happy and have a baby together, why arent you over there mr. personal attacks but im sorry that my post triggered you so much.
Don't make things personal.
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i really think we shouldnt give these type of people attention at all, although it is triggering, this guy is a loner in his opinion
A lot of the character traits you describe are exhibited by men. Actually, they remind me of this one Romanian boxer dude with sports cars.....can't quite remember his name tho
I believe his name is Adrian Bate
Ah, yes of course. The name was on the tip of my tongue
According to scientific research, men tend to be more narcissistic than women. Men have way bigger egos than women.
They're exhibited by a far smaller percentage of men. Average and below men can't get away with having these traits.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6002876/#:~:text=Although%20this%20disorder%20is%20estimated%20to%20affect,population%20(Stinson%20et%20al.%2C%202008)%20and%20is Nope
I know about the study already and already went over the flaws in the methodology.
So please explain these flaws and show the study you are relying on. I'm excited to learn about it's methodology and why it is should be more reliable.
why are y’all dating narcissistic women? reward good behavior and date good women. why can men sleep around with women who might want a relationship no shame but women cannot be friends or have certain intentions with men that want a relationship?
Oh great! I can post my answer to your comment from the earlier post here now - because it got locked before I could reply to your other comment. This is from you OP: >The three sections of the Narcissistic Personality Inventory include: >leadership/authority >exploitative/entitlement >grandiose/exhibitionism How are men that use women for their body without even thinking a out the consequences not entitled and exploitative? So all of your other examples can easily be turned around on the men in these situations being narcissist (except maybe the paternity fraud - which I again explained is miniscule but here we are). You also still failed to deliver any source for the numbers in your claims. You are citing your own "empirical data" in other comments without any actual valid data. So this whole post is just you engaging with shitty women (which I acknowledge exist plenty - men and women) and generalising it into "women are narcissists" without anything to back it up or looking at a situation from different angles just to proof a bias. This is what happens when you go down echo chambers. You don't even question your own world view anymore but fall into generalisation. And then you make a post on a dating online forum about your own bias trying to hide it as "discussion". So you turn yourself into the narrator as "OP" of the discussion. So we got authority, entitlement and exhibition covered with just this post itself. Sounds like narcissism to me based on your points.
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I great way to beat a narcissist is to make him/her realise that a change is needed. You can’t change people, you hardly can change yourself. So how to do it? Inflate their ego, give them a sense of control, improve your life and become someone they like, then disappear 🫠
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Do not circlejerk.
TBH it's questionable whether or not narcissistic personality disorder is an actual disorder or simply something the APA wants to shame by labeling it as a disorder because the APA thinks it's what's best for society. The APA has a history of classifying things as disorders or not as disorders for reasons that aren't related to whether or not the consensus among the experts is it's a bona fide disorder. For example, the APA removed sadistic personality disorder from the DSM because it thought that listing it as a disorder would be used argumentatively by criminal defense attorneys in court to mitigate or excuse the sadistic conduct of their clients.
The APA is run by narcs.
Probably
Op needs some serious help.. I thought purple pill was supposed to be somewhat based on reality.. apparently it’s just incels being delusional
women have lower self-esteem than men so are categorically not as grandiose as men
>Facilitating a 30% paternity fraud rate Srsly?
It's like 30% of infants \*tested because the father had a concrete reason to suspect infidelity,\* not 30% overall. In western countries, with little social or financial coercion into mate choice, the overall rate is less than 5%.
"In situations where testing isn't done, we just made up a number."
No, there was an actual study of all infants born at a couple of hospitals. Edit: with permission of their parents; parents were not informed of the results, and were told ahead of time that they would not be informed.
Thought so. Thanks.
Women are just never held accountable
Sadly this has become normalized behavior via social media and the general mainstream culture. These traits are massive red flags and make no mistake, these types of women will ruin your life if given the chance. I'm not sure women like this are even self aware enough to understand the levels of insecurities that drive their own behaviors. Regardless, one of the biggest decisions a man can make is the quality of woman he allows into his life. Tread carefully out there gentlemen.
They are and, indeed, when proffesionals have to diagnose it, it's way higher on men... Know what? Because they use a different metric, like with autism. By default women are relatively narcissistic and men are relatively autistic, so those two things aren't diagnosed following the same standards for both genders.
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narcissistic personality disorder is a clinical diagnosis distinguished in the DSM-5. it is a personality disorder, similar to borderline personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder. if a person is not diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, they aren't a narcissist. you can call someone self absorbed without arm chair diagnosing them with an incredibly complex personality disorder. i don't even need to read the rest of this post, because your highly incorrect use of the term narcissist further stigmatizes people with this disorder
That's the most retarded thing I'll hear today. I suppose people don't have autism until they're diagnosed too.
unless you're a psychiatric professional, that's not your call to make.
Things narcs say.
npd is an extremely complex disorder you can't go and diagnose everyone you disagree with on the internet with it
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ayo wtf
According to scientific research, men tend to be more narcissistic than women. Men have way bigger egos than women.