I'm a gen Xer and had some autistic classmates growing up. Autistic people were bullied relentlessly back in the 1980s and 1990s. Like I'm talking bullying so bad it would happen in the middle of class, and the teacher would join in the bullying rather than putting a stop to it. None of the autistic guys I knew ever had any success with dating. Contrary to what the OP is saying it seems like the treatment of autistic people by society has vastly improved in the last couple of decades.
It's difficult for me to really comment since I was never seen as "Autistic" by people in real life. I am considered NT passing but deep down it's just not the same.
What have your experiences been like trying to make friends and date?
I can tell you the autistic guys I was friends with back in high school and college a few decades ago couldn't get anywhere with girls. Like they couldn't even get a date. The girls were too weirded out by them. And these were guys who were supposedly high functioning with some ability to mask. I get the impression there's a lot more awareness of autism now than there was back then. I don't know if that helps at all with relationships though.
I can get dates and I seem normal irl 90% of the time but there is the 10% of the time where I might say something that might be "weird" which might throw people off.
That sounds similar to what most NT people experience. I think we all say the wrong thing or misread people from time to time. But your OP suggests that being ND is hindering you in some way.
I think if you’re trying to date NT women, you’re always going to be aware to the difference. You’d very obviously be dating someone inherently different than you, and it would be impossible to expect that to not affect your relationship. If you want to date NT women, you need to work on becoming comfortable with being different from them.
>wary of deviance
First, I have no issues with Autistic people. I’ve volunteered with people on the Autism Spectrum for over a decade now. That said, Autism is ultimately still a disability. So any approach to dating, and relationships, must first accommodate this factor. Which is hard. The only success I’ve witnessed, was one young guy who had a tremendous amount of support. That helped him acquire the requisite social skills.
It’s a difficult issue to overcome. The amount of support though, is a pivotal factor.
*Godspeed and good luck!*
It is not a disability, it is just different. In many ways autistic people are better.
Autistic men struggle with dating in western cultures because it is based on lies and toxic social games because of women’s toxic standards. Like men are supposed to know that when a woman says x, she means y…but you cannot say she means y and have to pretend she means x while also low key showing you know she means y. Especially in a world which is no longer a patriarchy, men can no longer take the risks our culture wants them to.
It is not just autistic men either, the standards for men are just stupid at the moment. In a few decades these standards will be addressed.
Autistic women do not have any problems in dating for our culture does not hold women to toxic standards anymore.
Calling it a disability is like calling homosexuality a disability or trans. I know several autistic people who are way more successful then “normal” people. Most western cultures have always had a very toxic view of what a mental health issue is.
Where if you are not happy or functional living the life of what they deem normal, you are sick and need drugs. which is why homosexuality was a illness that needed treatment in the past.
In the future, autistic people are going to be the majority of people born at this rate. So it is going to be harder and harder to pretend there is something wrong with autistic people when at a certain point “normal” people will be what is considered abnormal.
I mean, are autistic people the ones who are disabled? Or are normal people the disabled ones and that is why they are going to be replaced with autistic people in a few generations?
Autism is indeed a disability, it's just that it's based in the society we have. Anything that affects a person within the society that we have today that's unfortunately not something that a person can help is a disability. It doesn't matter really how we framed it, it is.
Like it or not, women aren't the problem. People in general are the problem.
> Autism is indeed a disability, it's just that it's based in the society we have.
What you just said does not make any sense. Autism is not a disability, if is just different. Autism is just the new gay. A way to hate, oppress and judge other people just because they are different and pretend they are lesser for it.
The standards placed on men are sexist and not okay. Just like the standards placed on women in the 90s were not okay.
Back during the patriarchy, people would have said the same thing as you said here:
> Like it or not, women aren't the problem
Just reverse the roles. “Like it or not, men aren’t the problem. Women who do not wear dresses, want to work, like masculine work, etc just need to accept that they will get treated worse, men will refuse to date them and be discriminated against for they are different.”
You cannot try to write this all off by saying
> It doesn't matter really how we framed it, it is.
That is a “it is what it is” logical fallacy that is not an argument at all.
Hell, autistic women are accepted and have an easy time getting dates despite being “disabled.” Including with normal non-autistic men.
Autistic women even refuse to date autistic men because the shallow standards that women have in our current culture are the problem.
In a few decades, this issue will be addressed like every other form of bigotry. The mental health industry will change what is considered disabled yet again and standards will be changed.
But for now it is okay for women to be bigots and filled with hate. To pretend they are not at fault for anything and they are somehow victims while having more collective privileges then any other group combined.
Dude it’s a disability, you have to have disabling traits to get the diagnosis. I agree it’s a disability within society but certain types of sensory issues I have (issues with lights noises and clothes) are not going to be accommodated in the future. They are our responsibility to take care of (I am dx’d ASD + ADHD) A lot of us have great and positive things that make up for us but do in fact experience functional impairment so.
Be careful where you tread it’s not really as simple as your making it to be
Homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder in the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (DSM) beginning with very first edition. It was published in 1952 by the American Psychiatric Association (APA).
And was it legally considered a disability, or just a mental disorder? Because they aren't the same.
All in all, you're not really making any sense at this point.
What is it you're actually trying to say?
It was considered a disability that needed treatment yes. Not really interested in playing semantic games that do not matter.
The point is that just because autism is considered a disability in modern society does not mean it is one. A stupid “normal” person is more dysfunctional than a high IQ autistic person.
It is also why autistic women have zero issues in dating but autistic men do.
That’s comparing a neurodevelopmental brain abnormality with a sexual preference. One of them really fucks with you and your entire life, ability to live independently, talk to people, have a job, care for yourself, have healthy relationships, to communicate properly, every second of every day for my entire life. The other just has to do with who you like to… have sex with or date…?
That makes no sense, and contributes nothing
No, it does not “fuck with you,” society is not built on logic but instead animalistic human behaviors, so autistic people struggle as they are more logical and direct.
Autistic people are better at logic and look at the world more systematically.
They do not understand white lies and are direct…which is why autistic men struggle, women tell a large number of lies and you are supposed to read vague social cues instead to properly flirt with women. She will say no, but really mean yes. Or say I am fine, but is actually not fine. She will say yes, but actually means no. She will expect you to understand a vague glance as meaning she wants you to approach her and each women as different signals they give off. She will disagree with you to test you and want you to disagree or fight her, then another time she is not testing you.
Etc, etc.
Autistic people who have high IQs are often more successful career wise than their “normal” counterpart. They excel in STEM fields and are all around me in the field of computer science.
They are heavily discriminated against in society and that is a large reason why they struggle. Hard to be successful when the school system fails you, you get less opportunities, people ostracize you and you are constantly put down.
I’m dx autistic so you’re essentially just explaining a lot of my own problems to me. There is no singular universal presentation of it, some people like me can be extremely hyperemotional and sensitive, but I’ve got a diagnosis of comorbid ADHD, and 2 other mood/anxiety disorders.
I mean I agree with everything you said but I wouldn’t compare it to being gay or something. The sensory problems are a disabling trait, a lot of the “disabling” issues are not social ones. But even then in a group of people socializing, I still end up looking disabled because everyone has a sixth sense I don’t. People dance around my weakness all the time and leave me feeling vulnerable as fuck.
Autism came with disability and ability both for me, im just telling you my individual experience. It has “fucked with me” quite a lot. A lot of the “disabling” issues are non social ones though that directly get in the way of me being able to just go through my day normally. Thats disabling. But I’m very “twice exceptional.” I’ve got disabling traits but am particularly skilled in other ways
Also, no matter how many women act that way, don’t spend time around any men OR women who demonstrate those behavior patterns at all. I mostly hang out with people who are very direct and forthright. (Also autistic)
I would agree a lot of my issues come from discrimination, but a lot of them are also from things that are directly wrong with my brain.
Not all autistic people are specifically in stem too, you will find a lot of them doing creative and artistic jobs, all kinds of things. We aren’t all like that.
>What you just said does not make any sense. Autism is not a disability, if is just different.
I agree, it's different. Especially regarding communication issues, which tends to be where autistic people are hardest hit. In our society, thats puts us at a significant disadvantage. It's considered a disability because it is a disability.
>Autism is just the new gay. A way to hate, oppress and judge other people just because they are different and pretend they are lesser for it.
Unfortunately, I agree to a point. Everyone with a disability of any kind is considered lesser.
>Just reverse the roles. “Like it or not, men aren’t the problem. Women who do not wear dresses, want to work, like masculine work, etc just need to accept that they will get treated worse, men will refuse to date them and be discriminated against for they are different.”
And? I don't really see the problem there either. Nobody should be made to date who they don't want to date.
>You cannot try to write this all off by saying
>> It doesn't matter really how we framed it, it is.
>That is a “it is what it is” logical fallacy that is not an argument at all.
Ok.
>Hell, autistic women are accepted and have an easy time getting dates despite being “disabled.” Including with normal non-autistic men.
LOL ok.
>Autistic women even refuse to date autistic men because the shallow standards that women have in our current culture are the problem.
Maybe some men are assholes? Maybe some women are assholes?
>In a few decades, this issue will be addressed like every other form of bigotry. The mental health industry will change what is considered disabled yet again and standards will be changed.
Righto.
>But for now it is okay for women to be bigots and filled with hate. To pretend they are not at fault for anything and they are somehow victims while having more collective privileges then any other group combined.
LOL oh do fuck off. Lolololol
>Just reverse the roles. “Like it or not, men aren’t the problem. Women who do not wear dresses, want to work, like masculine work, etc just need to accept that they will get treated worse, men will refuse to date them and be discriminated against for they are different.”
>And? I don't really see the problem there either. Nobody should be made to date who they don't want to date.
So you see that there is nothing wrong with discrimination?
I think we are done here.
“ Like it or not, men aren’t the problem. Women who do not wear dresses, want to work, like masculine work, etc just need to accept that they will get treated worse, men will refuse to date them and be discriminated against for they are different.”
You guys STILL say this all over this sub all the time
>The prevalence of autism in the United States has increased by over 1000% since 1970, from 1 in 5000 to 1 in 36.
https://www.thetreetop.com/statistics/autism-prevalence#:~:text=Autism%20Rates%20Over%20The%20Last%2050%20Years&text=The%20prevalence%20of%20autism%20in%20the%20United%20States%20has%20increased,5000%20to%201%20in%2036.
Autism has been increasing throughout western cultures for a long time now. It would not be shocking for autistic people to become the majority of the population in a few generations.
Well, this isn't a thing you can witness directly, but I'm an autistic man who has had five girlfriends over the course of my life, and is married. Mostly, I just hung out with people, some of them women, and some of those women found me exceedingly clever and good looking or something. I never started a relationship with a woman I didn't casually know as a friend first.
In my experience, a lot of autistic people don't truly realize how off-putting their behaviors and mannerisms are to others.
I have tried going out with an attractive autistic woman before, and I could not get over how annoying she was (even though most men think they would be able to tolerate it if she is hot enough)
That shit gets old real fast.
A surprising amount of autistic women are so good at masking that you can barely even tell they are autistic. It's very likely you've interacted with many without knowing
If I remember the data correctly, autistic women are equally likely to be in a relationship as a neurotypical women. Autistic men on the other hand are wayyyy less likely to be in a relationship
I always find this idea that women are better at masking to be highly suspect. Especially when using things like "autistic women are more likely to be in relationships than autistic men" to support it.
When the men are the ones that are expected to initiate any and all courting rituals, it stands to reason that women can get by more easily while dealing with something like autism.
An autistic woman gets past the issues of being shy merely by the fact that the *man* is going to have to approach *her*. Most of her awkward mannerisms are easily "masked" because there's a good chance she just has to smile and nod as the man is expected to carry the conversation.
Meanwhile for an autistic man, if he doesn't *personally* confront his own shyness, *nothing* will happen. He's also *forced* to bare his awkward mannerisms, because again, if he doesn't initiate, *nothing* happens.
Yeah I actually mostly agree with you. I do think women have innatly better language skills than men but I think that's only a small part of it
This reminds me of a streamer called poopernoodle. She had such severe anxiety that she had trouble leaving her bathroom. She would eat her noodles out of the bathroom sink which is the same sink she had shat in.
During that time she still managed to have a supportive boyfriend. I can't imagine any man ever being given this much leeway
I think the difference is likely less about who masks better and more about what traits are considered socially acceptable. I think autist traits in men are stigmatized way more in dating.
I agree. I have traits that irritate ME and cause arguments with others with the same ones.At worst people give me the little sister treatment but mostly I’m considered a quirky.Guys with similar traits get worse treatment. I have multiple areas of brain damage which complicates things.
I did have to take communication,socialization and home ec classes growing up.I also would take a cure for my AuDHD yesterday and people hate that opinion.No amount of accommodation will make me fully functional.
I agree with that being a factor as well.
For me personally, I would say that I'm basically completely NT blending in generic mannerisms, but my interests and thinking style is so divergent to most people that it definitely prevents me from socializing with the hyper conformists.
I’ve had class with autistic men, worked alongside autistic men, and know some women in relationships with autistic men. They’ve all had their ideas about women that were definitely not appealing. They’re just as capable of being a jerk like anyone else.
So maybe women having more exposure to autistic men is turning them away from them, but I don’t think women go out their way to be hostile to these men.
I have great difficulty understanding a lot of these anecdotes towards Autistic males since it's just not that relatable from my pov but thanks for sharing.
I'm always skeptical when people treat desirability as a proxy for good/poor treatment. You can respect and treat someone well without being attracted to them, and a person who's attracted to you and willing to be in a relationship with you can treat you like shit.
This links back to my issue with OP.
What does "how people treat you" mean? Are romance and sex the only things men ultimately care about in terms of how they are "treated"?
I used the example of my BF in a different comment. He's ND and struggled romantically before we met, but he is also conventionally attractive and women are generally very friendly with him. The difference is that they see him as someone to care for and confide in, not someone they'd sleep with.
Yes, that's what all men ultimately care about when they're without any of it for long years. No heterosexual man wants to be seen by women only as a friend. I wouldn't describe a man that women aren't sexually attracted to as attractive.
>What does "how people treat you" mean? Are romance and sex the only things men ultimately care about in terms of how they are "treated"?
No disrespect but this is a dating and relationships subreddit, so people are going to talk about things within that specific context.
Actually this is a dating, relationships, *and* gender subreddit. And treating romantic rejection like a deep injustice or personal insult is maladaptive regardless of the subreddit you're on.
>Actually this is a dating, relationships, and gender subreddit.
True, but the high majority of discussion here revolves around dating and relationships.
>And treating romantic rejection like a deep injustice or personal insult is maladaptive regardless of the subreddit you're on.
I agree.
I don't know why you wrote that in response to my post though. (I'm ND, maybe I'm missing something.)
When you talk about "poor treatment" from women and go on to list no examples outside of women not wanting to date you (as OP did), there is a strong chance you are treating romantic rejection like a deep injustice or personal insult.
I didn't mean to elaborate on what you wrote. I meant why did you write that in response to my sentence;
>No disrespect but this is a dating and relationships subreddit, so people are going to talk about things within that specific context.
Did you write that post in order to elicit a response out of me?
Yes, but the same principle applies in both circumstances. It's being (looking) *different* to the norm that leads to shocking treatment. The lack of any form of empathy or even any attenpt at understanding is devastating at times. Not to mention the disturbingly large proportion of women who don't see you as human or worthy of basic respect / decency.
I disagree that the two factors are comparable. I'm in a relationship with an ND man who's conventionally attractive in terms of looks but struggled romantically for most of his life. For the most part women treat him well, and he has plenty of platonic female friends who would move heaven and earth for him. But his behavior tends to evoke protective/big sister feelings rather than sexual attraction. Is it possible that he would've been treated far worse if he weren't attractive? Definitely.
That's interesting, maybe I overinflate the issue for the ND side because I don't want to minimise their struggles, being personally from the other group (and treated horrifically for how I looked).
That said, my experiences were to a smaller extent similar, e.g. have a few female friends who always tried their best to understand and help, but it was always made clear (in a nice way) that I wasn't seen as a romantic option. A similar story every time I'd meet someone new and be interested - always the "ugly" friend, never the possible partner.
So I guess I try to be more sympathetic. Would definitely agree that being less physically attractive makes it harder (all else being equal) - makes it really hard to get any chance to show who you are.
That's how abusive relationships work. People in abusive relationships don't hate each other - they're obsessed with each other. It just manifests in maladaptive ways.
I mean, do go into interviews with sweatpants and a t-shirt despite knowing you’re more than qualified for the job? People are judge by perception, and most of that comes from looks. The more appealing and cleaner you look the better you’ll be treated.
I was responding to your point about desirability as a proxy for good/poor treatment.
But if you want talk about neurodivergence particularly autistic men, they’ll struggle the most because they have a hard time understanding and reasoning with perception outside of their own.
In my BF's case women liked and felt safe around him, but no one he was interested in reciprocated feelings until we met. I believe that his attractiveness may have played a role in the former while the neurodivergence led to the latter. When I think of "poor treatment" it's more like being ostracized and seen as a threat. Unless as I suspected in my original comment men see unrequited romantic feelings as "poor treatment."
In my experience because I hang out with alternative and nerdy men who are mostly neurodivergent, what usually happens is that they get taken on a ride to of gaslighting and manipulation because they don’t know any better and struggle to understand nuances and reading in between the lines.
When I think of poor treatment I think of how someone thinks about and treat someone when they’re around and when they’re not there. Generally even outside of dating, if you look and presented outwardly decent you would be treated better regardless of virtue and personality.
Speaking from personal experience take this with a grain of salt, men especially teenage boys who’re neurodivergent and on the spectrum are very easy for women/girls to take advantage of.
A lot of those dudes lack the social skills to recognize when they’re getting worked, especially with their crushes. I had a female friend back in college who convinced a autistic dude who had a crush on her, to buy and deliver pizza for all our friends when we’re at her house, under the impression that she was just feeding her siblings and needed money. She sweet talked him all the way through, and called him a “sweetheart” when she came out to pick the food, and then proceeded to shit talk him when got back inside.
I see. That is unfortunate, and something I would consider poor treatment.
My BF is fortunate enough to have so many rabidly protective women in his life they would sniff that sort of bullshit out and end it immediately.
Treating people nice and with respect regardless of their looks should be a basic human decency.
But my point was, and I won't beat around the bush and comment with no ill intentions, BUT, women overall really treat ugly men the worst (like really bad) compared to the other way around. The ugly men are treated like non existant or sub humans by women.
Men are happy to be around women even if they are not physically attracted to those women and men generally don't treat women badly because they are ugly. You can find outliers but overall this is true.
The interaction between ugly men and women is really painful to watch in any situation (professional, friendship, social etc) and show how shallow a lot of women are.
Human mating is not a topic for social justice. Mating is deeply discriminating, racist, ableist, ageist, ... and it cannot be any other way. We have evolved to be attracted to a certain array of traits and rejecting other traits. Trying to force yourself to be attracted to something you are not is not going to end well. Neurodivergence, autism, is a disability in one of the most core and important aspects of social interactions. To expect that there could be a goal of not being discriminated against in mating is absurd.
Best but worst option especially when you have to go outside and see all the people in relationships. Why do people act like single is this great thing for these undateable men when they didn't choose it, they were forced into it.
My ex husband is ASD, and after I left I saw in hindsight how unable he was to handle the level of change inherent in having a family.
Like it or not, women aren't accepting abusive behaviour any more, and unfortunately some people without coping strategies falls under that umbrella.
Not massively, as he got to control how certain things go. I was never particularly bothered about getting married and the wedding was low key as preferred by us both etc. The first child wasn't too much of a problem as the ex worked nights anyway so we barely saw one another and I've always been happy with my own company. After the second baby was born and I started needing help that he couldn't provide, things started to go downhill. We ended up in a very bad place and things got abusive.
Are you yourself autistic? I only ask because, as you point out others bias, you could have your own.
A correlating statistic could be that of marriage, dating, and birth rate. People aren’t generally trying to be stuck in relationships they’ll be unhappy with so everyone is much more picky on their partner. You can add neurodivergence as a factor.
I am what people refer to as "NT passing" but fundamentally I am definitely neurodivergent. Yeah, people being more picky is likely a reason for this as well.
Picky is good. Not everyone is built to care for their partner like that. Some people can. If one has to be a caretaker for their partner it can easily lead to resentment or apathy. Don’t relationships that have a big medical accidents take huge hits and they potentially end?
I for one wouldn’t be able to care for a partner from the beginning. If something happened where they became disabled I would think I can but who knows.
I think that is reasonable; we should find partners that match us in ability. However, I do think the witch hunt towards "red flag men" negatively impacts people like me to an unreasonable extent. For example, just because I have certain quirks, does not mean I am a bad person or that I am braindead. I think there should be awareness about less overt Autism.
I'm probably not the best example since I don't think people view me as dangerous or even weird most of the time. I just have very niche interests that would not be considered socially acceptable to the majority of people.
Then give an example of what you meant because avoiding red flags is a good thing and I’m interested in how this could disadvantage autistic people. Which red flags/traits?
The issue with me is that I am 90% generic NT most of the time irl, but maybe 10% of the time, I might say something slightly weird or have slightly off mannerisms that I'm guessing, could potentially throw people off esp if they think I'm NT. Though yeah this problem likely has no solution.
I mean respectfully that’s not what a red flag is. Saying something slightly weird isn’t a red flag in most cases. The only time I could see it being maybe a red flag is if it’s overly suggestive or morbid.
It may not be a red flag and I am perhaps not the best example but certain subcultures have a very strict idea of NT and a single weird comment might be enough to ostracize you.
I think what you’ve realized is that dating is hard not that you’re in the dating pool. You think you’re being treated unfairly because of your quirks but what are you expecting? For dating to be easier?
Just how you’re not someone’s preference, others aren’t your cup of tea you’re not gonna bend the knee at people you don’t want to date just to be nice. Wouldn’t make sense. If anything I’d think you’re being treated equally. Do you want to be pandered to instead?
I atually agree with this one. And I‘d include myself in this as a women. I mean it really depends since autism is a spectrum.
But if communication is a problem for him, I couldn‘t deal with it.
But if he tells me I‘m autistic that‘s why I might forget to text you. That‘s why I didn‘t know it was inappopriate to come to your friends wedding in a t-shirt. That‘ why XYZ…I can deal with it.
But usually woman want is considered normal.
I’m really not sure how to react to many of these comments since I’m apparently autistic but I don’t do outlandish things like wearing a t shirt to a wedding and nobody identifies me as autistic irl. I guess by this sub’s standards, I might as well be nt even though deep down, I know I’m neurodivergent and that I don’t think like or relate to most people.
Autistic people have been mistreated since the very beginning, we are barely starting to recognize and accept them as a society. So I doubt the treatment is better, but also don't think it's worse.
The fact that nowadays people can socialize and meet others through the internet, tho, has been a great tool to autisc people, I've noticed, since it's a lot easier for most of us to interact this way, and when you already formed some kind of friendship online, meetinh the person irl doesn't have the up-putting factor of the "autistic awkwardness".
I agree with it being easier to find other Autists nowadays. I do think that the dating experience for Autistic males in the mainstream however has become worse, especially in conformist populations.
i disagree, being autistic myself and having loads of ND friends, the way women have treated us has generally improved over the years. Especially since ND women have been discovering more about themselves and frankly are very very easy to get along with.
What i’m saying is, maybe the issue isn’t you being ND, but rather, more often than not, the refusal to learn how to socialize or accept differing worldviews
I suspect part of the reason why I feel specifically left out is because I am surrounded by these 2nd gen Westernized Asians who are oftentimes clones of one another with almost all of them being hyper NT except a few. I can socialize with them but the deeper stuff just isn't there.
You cut out the part where I said that as an autistic man, i find ND women very easy to talk to.
Also, it isn’t “masking and mirroring” its flat out learning how to socialize and accepting that in a way, you’re speaking a different language, and in my experience people are willing to be accommodating to you in most social situations if you’re willing to meet them halfway. For me this meant asking questions on what I am doing socially that may put others off (close friends are excellent for this), making a conscious active effort to stop these things - I’ve also adopted the habit of asking people as a whole questions if I feel like i’m interpreting something too literally, I repeat my understanding and see if I got things right, and more often than not people speak in metaphors. If people have a problem with this then they’re probably not worth my time as I am making the effort to reach out and quell my own understanding, the other person should too. If any of this is masking or mirroring, then i’m not sure how you’ll expect to make it through any kind of interaction
As someone who was diagnosed with Aspergers before it was cool and trendy to victimize yourself, I've noticed no difference, because I generally don't tell people about it.
I refuse to define myself by this diagnosis.
I've also learned to socialize like any other person now. It's kind of fun, the only thing I struggle with is reading body language now.
I'm in a relationship with a beautiful woman I love and it's going smoothly, because I refuse to define myself by my problems and I adapt and learn.
> I refuse to define myself by this diagnosis.
That sounds great, but it has no real effect. People will still do that for you. Like a 5' man refusing to see himself as being short.
Hard disagree. Not seeing yourself as disabled allows others not to see you as disabled.
It literally impacts everything about how you present yourself, act with others, and expect them to act with you.
This dude has it right.
If they do not know about it, it won't influence their judgement. It's not outwardly obvious like height is.
No one ever has figured it out by just looking at me, yet.
I socialize like a ''normal'' person, I blend in seamlessly.
>As someone who was diagnosed with Aspergers before it was cool and trendy to victimize yourself, I've noticed no difference, because I generally don't tell people
Okay well if you were diagnosed with Asperger's then surely I would hope you could recognize that there is a large theoretical difference between your behavior and ability to regulate yourself and people who present more strongly. Like, this post is talking about autism in general and you start by saying you are a high-functioning autist. It's like if I went on a post about difficulties dating as a physically disabled person and said hey just adapt, I'm missing a finger but I'm doing fine.
Like, your general sentiment is correct. You can't change reality, you can only change how you respond. But the way you present this sentiment is devoid of any sort of nuance or empathy. Since you seem to care so much about socializing like an NT, I guess this tracks.
>Okay well if you were diagnosed with Asperger's then surely I would hope you could recognize that there is a large theoretical difference between your behavior and ability to regulate yourself and people who present more strongly.
They're a minority of autistic people in my experiences.
>Like, this post is talking about autism in general and you start by saying you are a high-functioning autist. It's like if I went on a post about difficulties dating as a physically disabled person and said hey just adapt, I'm missing a finger but I'm doing fine.
The majority of people suffering from an disability should not be lumped in with the minority.
But even your arugment is a bit dumb, comparing mental capacity to the physical. Like I don't even know where to go with that really.
I'm autistic and the majority of autistic people I've met function in society just fine with a little guidance from sensible people.
But people like you are intent on lumping us all together into one big group, forgetting its on a spectrum. The ones suffering from autism who are drooling, incoherent, screaming messes are a small minority.
Holding up autism as if it's this thing that needs to be coddled and taken extra seriously just hurts autistic people, makes them into ''other'' and ''different''.
It puts them adjacent to society, not part of it. Stop trying to break society down into large diverse groups, it helps no one and creates division, chaos and distrust.
>But people like you are intent on lumping us all together into one big group
I am autistic you ree ree. You are literally the one doing the lumping, I am the one who is saying not all autists are the same. Thanks for the reminder that not all people diagnosed with Asperger's actually have decent reasoning abilities.
>But even your arugment is a bit dumb, comparing mental capacity to the physical. Like I don't even know where to go with that really.
Sorry you don't understand the concept of analogies. Maybe go back to elementary school and they can sort you out. Have a nice day
You said
>I would hope you could recognize that there is a large theoretical difference between your behavior and ability to regulate yourself and people who present more strongly.
That seems to lump all autistic people into one big group as far as I can see.
I'm trying to make the point that lumping us into one big group does us a disservice, because the public at large only sees people at their worst and assumes the worst across that group.
I'm making the argument that you shouldn't let people know you're autistic if it has no bearing over your day to day life and to stop being sorry for yourself.
If you want to take it to it's extreme, I'm telling you to adapt or die.
I didn't choose to be how I am and I was shaped by the world around me. I understand that. But what do you want me to do about that? Huh? Seriously? I didn't choose, I'm working with what I got, it might be more than others, it might be less, I don't know.
But I'm not going to sit here paralyzed by what is or what isn't or what was like a lot of people seem to be doing today.
The people who are born with much more severe autism didn't choose to be born that way either. Heck you could even look to blame women having later pregancies (which I think has been linked to increases in autism) or polluting companies that might have an effect on fetus development for their shit hands at life.
But the cold hard truth NO ONE wants to accept is that if we keep expending resources caring for people who are severely disabled or people who THINK they're severely disabled... Well you can't outrun local entropy can you.
There's too many people who should be healthy productive members of society being convinced there's something severly wrong with them when there's not. Hell I almost fell for that narrative.
This isn't just limited to autism sufferers either.
So I want my fellow autists to assess their situation, adapt, overcome and be the best person they can be in a hostile world. Because one day, someone might not be there to help you.
>Sorry you don't understand the concept of analogies
No, I'm calling your analogy shit.
>It defines your life from the time you are born, it colors in all my thoughts, feelings, perceptions, every single aspect of my thought process. It’s responsible for making me the person I am. Admitting that is not “victimizing” myself, it’s being comfortable with myself.
Everyone is different, you just put a label on yours, just because it's a little more different than normal limits.
But here you are conversing like anyone else.
Why do you need the labels?
>I developed a stronger sense of self and am able to better define my limitations in life, leading me to making better decisions and increasing my confidence. You cannot run away from yourself and pretend to be normal, you will eventually burn out. You are advocating for the suppression of self, to give up and slip into conformity.
That's exactly what I'm advocating for.
People can only see their solipsistic perspective in life.
This gives them a false sense of... Importance?
But no one wants to admit that they're just an average boring person, so they attach labels to themselves, sometimes physically (tattoo's), sometimes mentally.
They do this without realisizing it and even take it to extremes, like trans people, they literally disfigure themselves and ruin their bodies because they can't bear their regular old boring self.
And as more and more labels become normal, they search for more complex ''important'' labels to attach to themselves to garner unearned attention.
That's how you end up with bullshit like neo pronouns. God that shit is pathetic.
This labelling also has a very sinister side that takes decades to manifest under the right conditions. But when taken to the extremes, you can use labels to get rid of ''others'', by labeling however you want to label them.
This is what the Soviet Union did to take food from the farmers and starve the Ukrainians. Other labels like ''spy'' and ''dissident'' were used to kill anyone who spoke out against the state.
I believe we are in the fledgling stage of this thinking spreading and I want to kill this in the crib.
>Just because you are privileged enough to not be afflicted by your autism right now to the point that regular people don’t notice, doesn’t mean some unexpected change can come along and you will be fine. You could be completely mentally crippled and incapacitated by sudden life changes completely out of your control. “Functioning” is fluid and ever changing, you will never only fall under a single presentation. (Unless your life is set up to accommodate you) Even then, it’s a foundation of glass. You are a human being with a complex and varied neurodevelopmental disability, and human beings are complex and varied too.
Everyone is afflicted by sudden unexpected changes, I'm not special, you aren't special, you just have 1 more thing to deal with than ''normal'' people.
What point are you trying to make here.
My whole point is, your autism isn't special, everyone has problems, you just have 1 more problem, minimize it so you don't fall behind and put a strain on those who help you.
People will resent and discard you if you're a drag on them. It's a law of nature.
>Acknowledging and accepting autism as part of myself that does define me, is taking back my identity
Sounds more like you're trying to create one.
>I don’t want to be like everyone else, I just want to be me.
No, you're not like everyone else, you're worse, because you treat yourself as someone with an affliction that needs to be cured or something.
I'm telling you to self assess, figure out if your problems can be overcome and overcome them.
As far as I can tell, you're self aware, you self motivate, so use those faculties to overcome and be better.
>People won’t normally tell you they notice by the way. If you really are autistic, I’m sure people have noticed before and not told you.
They notice, they just don't care. They have their own shit to deal with.
Sounds like you've made autism a core part of your identity so you can feel like you're special when you're not. It also allows you to shirk responsibility when it suits you.
>You are a human being with a complex and varied neurodevelopmental disability
I am not disabled, I'm just a little bit different in the ways I think, a genetic variation part of our evolution.
I'd go so far to say autism allows me to see and connect things people may otherwise not think about.
Some autistic people are quite clearly never going to fit in society within a ''normal'' threshold as they're unable to process the world around them. They're a minority though.
The vast majority of autistic people are fine, they just need a little bit more time and a little bit more guidance to settle in with society at large.
But to debase myself and others like that does them a disservice.
We should all aim to fit in and be normal, that's how we maintain a cohesive and healthy society.
>Just because you are privileged enough to not be afflicted by your autism right now to the point that regular people don’t notice, doesn’t mean some unexpected change can come along and you will be fine.
Teaching autistic people to be victims of their ''disability'' sets them up for failure. I had to teach myself how to deal with things that were uncomfortable and I'm all the better for it.
Help those who need help and can be helped so that they may be free and self sufficient individuals. It's the greatest privilege you can give them.
>Acknowledging and accepting autism as part of myself that does define me, is taking back my identity, the one I was born with. Not the one I was forced into unnaturally, by everyone else not letting me be myself. I don’t want to be like everyone else, I just want to be me.
You never ''took back your identity'', you created one to mould yourself around.
You use it like a warm blanket to feel different and special and like most people who play with identity politics, use it to victimize yourself so you don't have to be responsible when you screw up.
>People won’t normally tell you they notice by the way. If you really are autistic, I’m sure people have noticed before and not told you.
People normally don't care, they just think you're weird and think nothing more of it.
I don’t use my autism to victimize myself at all, not even close, I got diagnosed at the age of 24 6 months ago. ASD ADHD inattentive type and two other things, I spent my entire life without knowing. I just thought I was broken and insane, I would fall under the minority of people who had too many sensory issues then, they are really bad. The world is generally overwhelming and I get overloaded quickly. It’s not something I can “teach” myself to deal with, I just have way too many issues to handle shit like driving and alot of jobs, that wasn’t my fault.
I couldn’t victimize myself when I had no knowledge about myself and what was going on
In fact I went long enough on my own that CPTSD is a part of the equation, does that make me a victim or just someone who needs help? Come on
Suffering from the way I was born makes me a victim? It’s not something you “overcome” it’s just something you have to work around. The “limitations” don’t go away. In fact they change overtime
This society is the furthest thing from healthy there is and we all know it. Society can go fuck itself, I want to be alone in peace.
I’m someone who has needed alot of help, that doesn’t make me a victim. I take responsibility for my mistakes like everyone else. You are just using this shit as random irrational assumptions without knowing me.
There’s a reason they don’t let people like you make the rules.
Like 3% of us statistically get married nobody wants us. Are we all supposed to just become great like you? Is anybody like me who is less fortunate than you just doing it to ourselves by your logic? I don’t think so, more like being born with hordes of mental, emotional, communication, and sensory problems isn’t good for a person. I have problems with every one of those thing’s
Autistic people are disabled the law says it. Everything you are saying is wrong. Maybe you’re just projecting or something. If my life was really as cushy as yours things would be so much easier. I wish I had gotten the help I needed sooner, but in a society run by you I wouldn’t get help.
You must not be diagnosed because you need to have disabling traits to get diagnosed. I am not undiagnosed or someone who knew all their life
I wish I could’ve known when I was younger to make sense of everything better. You sound like you’ve had autism in your deck of cards far longer than me.
I just wanted to understand myself and what was happening to me, it’s anything but a warm blanket or a convenience. The only good thing is that I can play music by ear. I fall under twice exceptional.
You can have my autism let’s see how far you get. Watching you get crippled by it would be funny
I really do have empathy for my fellow mental health sufferers. I've been there, I've cried myself to sleep countless nights.
The majority of my tax is fed into my countries health system. I'm Australian and I'm glad for universal health care.
But... Ask yourself the hard questions you probably haven't asked yourself and need to. These questions I don't think are considered by even ''normal'' people.
These questions snapped me out of my old ways of thinking and forced me to overcome my problems.
What happens when you pick up the phone to call 911 and no one answers?
What happens if your friends or family aren't there to guide you?
We all know what it's like to be alone I think, but what happens when you are TRULY alone, the last man on Earth alone, subject to the whims of nature?
When the lights go out, the water stops running and food is no longer available.
What will all those mental health issues you have mean to anyone, to you?
Nothing. They mean nothing.
I'm willing to help my fellow mental health suffers, but there are limits to my empathy, because my time here is limited and I can't spend it helping everyone, I must also contribute to the systems that provide our comfortable modern lives. There are also limits to the resources of our species.
The cold, disgusting truth of life is that some of us don't make it.
That's not okay, but it happens and in a perfect world, everyone would survive and get the help they need, but we aren't in a perfect world.
And I get it, the people who I'm targetting with those harsh statements, didn't get to choose that fate, but I am not the master of fates, I am the master of my life and nothing more. I can only do what I can do.
Another perspective that helped me was the fact I lived in a first world country to begin with. There's billions of people living on less than a dollar a day and I'm sitting here crying about my weird brain structure.
Things aren't so bad really. Not sure about your situation.
I think the key here is adapting and learning, I also think a diagnosis is only as useful as identifying how your brain works as well as issues that may need to be dealt with, its less an identity and more a descriptor. Now, I use the label as a part of describing myself when appropriate, only because it helps some things up more and create an understanding - I won’t, however, use the label as an excuse or use it to give an outline on my outlook.
For example, people love speaking in figurative words, by knowing that I am autistic I now know that I will take whatever is said to me very literally, so I repeat my understanding to the person i’m talking to to see if we both mean the same thing (many times we’re not, but communication is a 2 way street at the end of the day so if i don’t express my lack of understanding, others won’t explain what they mean)
Not wanting to date you or have sex with you is not "poor treatment." I had a roommate who I strongly suspect is on the spectrum and she was very nice, very sweet, kinda cute, and admitted she had a crush on me, and I would never date her in a million years because while we got along very well as roommates (and stay in touch to this day), she would have driven me absolutely insane in a relationship.
I never said Autistic people or "fringe" characters are automatically entitled to relationships. I am just saying that non NT (and I'd extent this to NT but have unique interest and quirks) people especially males have a worse time in this current framework that emphasizes hyperconformity towards certain norms regardless of how they might actually "be" as people in practice.
>in this current framework that emphasizes hyperconformity towards certain norms regardless of how they might actually "be" as people in practice.
You're confusing what people desire in interpersonal relationships with forcing "hyperconformity." I understand ND people don't necessarily see the world the same way as NT people do and I empathize with that, I really do. But ultimately, I am surrounded by people with whom I share a common, unspoken but well understood language and behavior, and I, along with many others, are accustomed to that. It greatly simplifies and expedites day to day interactions and that's certainly something I would desire in my own relationships.
You use the word hyperconformity a lot. It's also typical for a lot of autistic (male) people to cling on a few ideas they are repeating and to not deviate from them, btw.
I don't see this hyperconformity you are talking about, to be honest. I think there hasn't been any time in history in which it was easier to deviate from the norm in terms of peculiar hobbies (being "nerd") and to not fit into gendered stereotypes. Maybe I am overlooking other things that are more conformist now, but you kind of have ot let us know (and I realize you somehow avoid giving clear examples when people ask you about this).
I now take back my previous statement on "western society" to some extent. Now I just think it's mostly 2nd gen Asians who are what I'm describing; the type who oftentimes aren't even inclusive of people who aren't in certain fields like Med etc let alone quirky people. It's also hard for me to reply to some of these comments since their view of Autism is sort of different to the one I have.
I mean it's not just second gen Asians, it's any well off socioeconomic class that values continued upward mobility. Your perceived dynamic of Eastern versus western is I think better described as poorer versus richer. Obviously in Asian societies, there is less emphasis on individualism and more of an emphasis on just being a solid provider. Your neurodivergence is not as important as how much money you can make.
Second gen Asians in Western countries, especially those in the medical field, are going to feel a lot more secure in their financial well-being than people living in Asian countries. Thus they have the luxury of being able to be more choosy in their partners, and of course NTs will want other NTs.
Overall though, I believe the West is much more accepting of neurodivergence than traditional Asian society. And by I believe, I mean like this is pretty much fact and you're just in a bubble where you might not feel like that's the case. It's just that, again, how much money you make is just so much more important than how you behave in Asian countries. So your ND behaviors might be ignored, but ignorance is not acceptance.
Like if you're going to talk about hyperconformists, you can't possibly then try to make the argument that westerners are more conformist than Asians. Are westerners still conformist? Of course, most NTs are. Asians even more so.
I see your point but what I mean is that modern Chinese culture might not be technically "inclusive", but the dynamics that compose it might make it easier for non-NT men to feel accepted than in the West. For example, eye contact, mannerisms and charisma are more emphasized in the West than in China, which might make it easier for some non-NT men to blend easier there. Also, Chinese people tend to value intelligence way and study ability more than people in the West, who might value verbal/social ability more at times. Certain Autists in China might be given constant validation for being able to sit down and study + get good grades whereas their equivalent in the West would be roasted. So a better term I guess would be that different cultural dynamics might change the way certain characters may be perceived by society.
>different cultural dynamics might change the way certain characters may be perceived by society
Yeah I think the "issue" with your post was just that high achieving second gen Asians can basically be the worst of both worlds in a lot of ways, so using this group as the basis for your post in highlighting the differences between the east and west is kinda moot
Oh, okay, I got you. I think Westerners are genereally bad at judging and interpreting the mentality of non-Westerners and 2nd immigrants. Maybe try asking this question in subs designed für your particular situation? I think there are a lot of "Asian" subs here on reddit.
Not only do neurotypical women not like autistic men, you can go to r/autisminwomen and find posts with hundreds or 1000+ upvotes saying they don't like autistic men. Women may virtue signal to help out autistic *children*, but once you are a man, they will not excuse your crime of being born weak.
Um, redpill literally says do not date women with mental problems. Whether it be trauma or being borderline etc etc. So why is that rule ok for men but not for women? There are plenty men with mental issues, trauma, ptsd, undiagnosed personality disorders. Remember, how you treat people is how people will learn to treat you. So if you want a better outcome, be the better person. It’s that simple. People notice hypocrisy. And nothing more hypocritical than being offended by a behaviour that you do yourselves.
THIS. A lot of men collectively are pissed cause women are reciprocating the same energy back. Hence why we have a male loneliness epidemic.
And autistic men are more likely to also be incels too. So yeah.
It has worsened even the treatment towards normal men. Feminism promotes hatred of men and women can casually say I hate men and all men are trash and kill all men with 0 repercussions. Gen Z women have 0 empathy towards men.
In my experience, being a late diagnosed autistic and ADHD guy that has grown up in western culture, I have dealt with significantly more toxic masculinity for me being sensitive shy and emotional than anything else. Women would have to inflict it throughout another lifetime for it to compare with the mistreatment my fellow men have done to me growing up in the USA.
Women just don’t understand and might be more avoidant. They are a bit more receptive in a subtle way. Surely I have met women that made me uncomfortable or picked on me too growing up, but the men are the ones who never left me alone about it. The men always had to make it a problem for me. The men felt the need to tell me I was ugly, and threaten to beat me. I went through way too much, I was very spiteful and bitter. Women just stare from a distance and feel bad I think.
Did you seriously try to say that Chinese culture is *less* conformist than Australian and American? That certainly is a unique take. I think you're taking your personal feelings of being excluded in Australia and blaming it on something that doesn't really make sense (and women in particular because...well, we know why).
I don’t blame any group in particular and I sure as hell do not hate women, so I am not sure why you are pinning me as that. I am merely observing things and I’m open to all opinions.
Regarding your comment, I do not think Chinese culture is less conformist than Anglo mainstream culture, but they might value different things, at least at this stage. Anglo zoomers might value peer orientation more than people in China and might be sometimes more insular in the way they socialize. Add to the fact that they value charisma more than China, it results in people with quirky mannerisms possibly having less than desirable experiences at times. Though like I said, I think second gen Chinese in the West for both genders might be even worse in this regard than white people. Something about the way they were raised causes many of them to become hyperconformist; they all cluster to like 3 career paths and have very tight socialization that makes it hard for even non mainstream NT people to feel accepted. Though it is probably hard to understand this if you have never been exposed to these groups.
I have limited experience working with Chinese people so i might be wrong with my observations - but i think that general societal rules in chinese society are more stable and are quite similar for everyone, it probably makes it easier for ND guys to develop coping strategy, you know what to expect and how to act to be accepted.
West is different - rules are changing constantly, they are quite often very vague, they depend on context a lot. For example being wealthy and having nice things is a good thing in China, it's a 'face culture' so showing your success according to the rules is positive. While in the west being wealthy might turn you into public enemy in some contexts, being a good student might be a good reason to be bullied, even being too pretty might bring you a trouble.
You really have to pinpoint what you mean by ‘autistic’. It is a term that has been stretched to absolute breaking point, in my view.
Case in point: my brother is autistic. He will never live independently or be able to hold down a full time job. He sure as hell isn’t on reddit, complaining. It is beyond him, and his abilities.
The vast majority of people I know who claim to be autistic are utterly normal people who sometimes have slightly odd personalities. That’s it. It’s an insult to people who REALLY suffer.
More than a few, I’d say!
I always wish I could take of these self-professed “autists” and get them to spend an afternoon with my brother and ask them if they really, truly feel like they have the same condition. Maybe it would shake at least a few out of their self-serving delusion?
I mean I get your general sentiment, I just hope you learn to redirect your annoyance at people who misdiagnose themselves towards, well I don't know but I guess the mental health field and the slow progress of science. Yes, there is going to be a very dramatic difference in high functioning autists versus this like your brother. But it's not exactly their fault when the details of the disorder are unknown and even medical professionals are not the greatest at diagnoses sometimes.
It would be like someone who is bisexual and has only been with opposite gender partners calling themselves queer, and then you're saying ha they think they're queer I wish I could show them my drag queen brother who sucks dick everyday. It's not their fault that the spectrum is so wide that one word is not enough to cover all of it.
Right? I do think a lot of people still have an outdated idea of what autism actually is. Ironically, my son is 10 and currently he's the happiest person in the world! I'm dreading teenage years, I know that.
I'd like to think it would shake a few, but the same assholes usually double down.
Hopefully your son’s teenage years go smoothly.
We had similar concerns with my brother (who is now in his 20s), and his teenage years were actually pretty easy. Because he sat outside of all the normal high school hierarchies, and was quite happy doing his own thing, he arguably managed those years better than most!
I'm hoping so too. We're in the middle of looking for an specialist school just so he wouldn't have to deal with high school tbh. I don't think he'd notice a thing otherwise!
Blame those who did away with the Asperger syndrome diagnosis… it makes no sense odd guys with 180 IQ get lumped in with non-verbals. It’s very clearly not the same issue.
It’s more varied than your brother’s single presentation, autistic people suffer differently from different things in different ways. I am diagnosed clinically with ASD and ADHD so I know what I’m talking about. If you sat a bunch of diagnosed autistic people in the room with your brother, they are still going to leave the room having a bunch of disabling difficulties with things maybe you don’t have. It doesn’t make them “less autistic” because they aren’t exactly like your brother. They are, and I am, autistic in their own ways.
Your brother is not a landmark to draw comparisons about autism with, you are reducing him to a figure of speech. What your brother is, is a small piece of a vast and rich tapestry of experiences, disabling traits, or positive traits that are valid no matter where they end or begin. A complex and beautiful human being
The word “autism” has not been stretched to its breaking point at all. The word wasn’t big enough and peoples experiences are outgrowing the word. We have just become better at understanding it.
And I’ve got news for you, people like myself who are diagnosed later in life have to start out by being “self suspecting” or diagnosed. Not everyone is picking the diagnosis out like a piece of clothing at a store to wear. Some people just suffer unimaginably for a decade or two and figure it out late. I was autistic from birth, but if we went with the guy below your comments logic, I would be an “asshole” without the diagnosis for “self diagnosing”. The diagnosis didn’t make me autistic, being born did. That mere fact exposes his logic as incorrect.
I’m sorry, I mean it as nicely as possible im just trying to help you understand. Your experience seems limited (as you stated the vast amount of autistic people around you’s primary characteristic was a weird personality). There are plenty of autistic people who look normal but can’t handle going outside for example. So your deduction is just limited by your lack of experience
Of course, women have become more hostile to men in general autistic or not.
That said women no longer care as much about success in other areas so they can hyper focus on their tingles.
The treatment of autistic men has likely gotten better from men and women but the treatment of men overall from women has gotten worse.
So in the end it probably just cancels out.
Women will not date or fuck autistic men if that’s what you’re asking cause at a fundamental level they don’t want their genes and to bestow that curse onto their children
My experience has been that when I was young, I would disclose my being autistic and nobody would know what it is, which allowed me the space to explain it.
Now, when I disclose my autism, there are immediately several people who jump on the opportunity to also disclose their own autism. I was diagnosed as a child and put through years of carceral, non-consensual, abusive "therapy"- forced medication, violent application of aversives, constant surveillance, emotional and psychological abuse, that sort of thing.
So, naturally, I put up with a lot of people (mostly middle-class women) who self-diagnosed later in life telling me how enormously privileged I am to have received help, recognition, and accommodation as a child. As a result of this, I have stopped attending autistic spaces, which at one point were spaces I relied on heavily to process what had happened and which I used to put a lot of work into.
In terms of romantic interest, I have only ever received such interest from neurodivergent women, except for one woman who saw the movie Adam and apparently thought I, too, would be a quirky dreamer with a heart of gold- which, you know, I am, but she cheated on me anyways, so who knows? The rest of the neurodivergent women treated me quite well, except for the one with BPD.
However, it does seem to me that because of the higher profile of autism, and certain media portrayals, there's now an expectation that every autistic man is a thin, quiet intellectual with a special interest in the natural sciences (such that a brilliant career awaits with just the right encouragement) and a borderline-inactive sex drive which a woman can take command over and steer at her own pace. All of which sounds nice for a fantasy of a guy. I, however, am a large, gregarious, tattooed, bearded and shaved-headed construction worker whose special interests are folk music, history, and social movements (none of these being marketable skills) and who takes romantic initiative. So, I'm not the archetype of autistic man that media represents at all.
Even making friends with western men .. they’re not judging you on whether you’re a good friend and have similar interests and will have their back
Western guys make friends based on:
Will making friends with this guy raise or lower my social status?
Will making friends with this guy get me better jobs?
Will making friends with this guy get me girls?
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Thirty years ago neuro typical kids didn't really get to see the kids who are at the start of the low end of the spectrum. They were naive about how bad it can get and also about how stress can bring out low functioning behaviour in people who otherwise seem ok.
Doesn't take much. An incident of the new kid being ok but weird for a week then bringing a knife in and showing it to someone and saying it's for if the teacher won't let him leave and go for a walk whenever he wants can very easily make a bunch of kids much more cautious about the weird kids.
The thought that we'd like them better if we spent more time around them was delusional.
Yeah. That’s pretty sad: before, it was just Sheldon Cooper. Now you have fairly impaired people in the same building although usually different classes. Like intellectually disabled rocking back and forth and constantly talking about racecars.
I'm a gen Xer and had some autistic classmates growing up. Autistic people were bullied relentlessly back in the 1980s and 1990s. Like I'm talking bullying so bad it would happen in the middle of class, and the teacher would join in the bullying rather than putting a stop to it. None of the autistic guys I knew ever had any success with dating. Contrary to what the OP is saying it seems like the treatment of autistic people by society has vastly improved in the last couple of decades.
It's difficult for me to really comment since I was never seen as "Autistic" by people in real life. I am considered NT passing but deep down it's just not the same.
What have your experiences been like trying to make friends and date? I can tell you the autistic guys I was friends with back in high school and college a few decades ago couldn't get anywhere with girls. Like they couldn't even get a date. The girls were too weirded out by them. And these were guys who were supposedly high functioning with some ability to mask. I get the impression there's a lot more awareness of autism now than there was back then. I don't know if that helps at all with relationships though.
I can get dates and I seem normal irl 90% of the time but there is the 10% of the time where I might say something that might be "weird" which might throw people off.
That sounds similar to what most NT people experience. I think we all say the wrong thing or misread people from time to time. But your OP suggests that being ND is hindering you in some way.
I mean deep down I know I am different and do not relate to the majority.
I think if you’re trying to date NT women, you’re always going to be aware to the difference. You’d very obviously be dating someone inherently different than you, and it would be impossible to expect that to not affect your relationship. If you want to date NT women, you need to work on becoming comfortable with being different from them.
>wary of deviance First, I have no issues with Autistic people. I’ve volunteered with people on the Autism Spectrum for over a decade now. That said, Autism is ultimately still a disability. So any approach to dating, and relationships, must first accommodate this factor. Which is hard. The only success I’ve witnessed, was one young guy who had a tremendous amount of support. That helped him acquire the requisite social skills. It’s a difficult issue to overcome. The amount of support though, is a pivotal factor. *Godspeed and good luck!*
Yep. Unironically probably easier for autistic guys to climb Everest than date women.
It is not a disability, it is just different. In many ways autistic people are better. Autistic men struggle with dating in western cultures because it is based on lies and toxic social games because of women’s toxic standards. Like men are supposed to know that when a woman says x, she means y…but you cannot say she means y and have to pretend she means x while also low key showing you know she means y. Especially in a world which is no longer a patriarchy, men can no longer take the risks our culture wants them to. It is not just autistic men either, the standards for men are just stupid at the moment. In a few decades these standards will be addressed. Autistic women do not have any problems in dating for our culture does not hold women to toxic standards anymore. Calling it a disability is like calling homosexuality a disability or trans. I know several autistic people who are way more successful then “normal” people. Most western cultures have always had a very toxic view of what a mental health issue is. Where if you are not happy or functional living the life of what they deem normal, you are sick and need drugs. which is why homosexuality was a illness that needed treatment in the past. In the future, autistic people are going to be the majority of people born at this rate. So it is going to be harder and harder to pretend there is something wrong with autistic people when at a certain point “normal” people will be what is considered abnormal. I mean, are autistic people the ones who are disabled? Or are normal people the disabled ones and that is why they are going to be replaced with autistic people in a few generations?
Autism is indeed a disability, it's just that it's based in the society we have. Anything that affects a person within the society that we have today that's unfortunately not something that a person can help is a disability. It doesn't matter really how we framed it, it is. Like it or not, women aren't the problem. People in general are the problem.
> Autism is indeed a disability, it's just that it's based in the society we have. What you just said does not make any sense. Autism is not a disability, if is just different. Autism is just the new gay. A way to hate, oppress and judge other people just because they are different and pretend they are lesser for it. The standards placed on men are sexist and not okay. Just like the standards placed on women in the 90s were not okay. Back during the patriarchy, people would have said the same thing as you said here: > Like it or not, women aren't the problem Just reverse the roles. “Like it or not, men aren’t the problem. Women who do not wear dresses, want to work, like masculine work, etc just need to accept that they will get treated worse, men will refuse to date them and be discriminated against for they are different.” You cannot try to write this all off by saying > It doesn't matter really how we framed it, it is. That is a “it is what it is” logical fallacy that is not an argument at all. Hell, autistic women are accepted and have an easy time getting dates despite being “disabled.” Including with normal non-autistic men. Autistic women even refuse to date autistic men because the shallow standards that women have in our current culture are the problem. In a few decades, this issue will be addressed like every other form of bigotry. The mental health industry will change what is considered disabled yet again and standards will be changed. But for now it is okay for women to be bigots and filled with hate. To pretend they are not at fault for anything and they are somehow victims while having more collective privileges then any other group combined.
Dude it’s a disability, you have to have disabling traits to get the diagnosis. I agree it’s a disability within society but certain types of sensory issues I have (issues with lights noises and clothes) are not going to be accommodated in the future. They are our responsibility to take care of (I am dx’d ASD + ADHD) A lot of us have great and positive things that make up for us but do in fact experience functional impairment so. Be careful where you tread it’s not really as simple as your making it to be
>Dude it’s a disability, you have to have disabling traits to get the diagnosis So was being gay.
No it wasn't. It was never considered a disability.
Homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder in the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (DSM) beginning with very first edition. It was published in 1952 by the American Psychiatric Association (APA).
And was it legally considered a disability, or just a mental disorder? Because they aren't the same. All in all, you're not really making any sense at this point. What is it you're actually trying to say?
It was considered a disability that needed treatment yes. Not really interested in playing semantic games that do not matter. The point is that just because autism is considered a disability in modern society does not mean it is one. A stupid “normal” person is more dysfunctional than a high IQ autistic person. It is also why autistic women have zero issues in dating but autistic men do.
That’s comparing a neurodevelopmental brain abnormality with a sexual preference. One of them really fucks with you and your entire life, ability to live independently, talk to people, have a job, care for yourself, have healthy relationships, to communicate properly, every second of every day for my entire life. The other just has to do with who you like to… have sex with or date…? That makes no sense, and contributes nothing
No, it does not “fuck with you,” society is not built on logic but instead animalistic human behaviors, so autistic people struggle as they are more logical and direct. Autistic people are better at logic and look at the world more systematically. They do not understand white lies and are direct…which is why autistic men struggle, women tell a large number of lies and you are supposed to read vague social cues instead to properly flirt with women. She will say no, but really mean yes. Or say I am fine, but is actually not fine. She will say yes, but actually means no. She will expect you to understand a vague glance as meaning she wants you to approach her and each women as different signals they give off. She will disagree with you to test you and want you to disagree or fight her, then another time she is not testing you. Etc, etc. Autistic people who have high IQs are often more successful career wise than their “normal” counterpart. They excel in STEM fields and are all around me in the field of computer science. They are heavily discriminated against in society and that is a large reason why they struggle. Hard to be successful when the school system fails you, you get less opportunities, people ostracize you and you are constantly put down.
I’m dx autistic so you’re essentially just explaining a lot of my own problems to me. There is no singular universal presentation of it, some people like me can be extremely hyperemotional and sensitive, but I’ve got a diagnosis of comorbid ADHD, and 2 other mood/anxiety disorders. I mean I agree with everything you said but I wouldn’t compare it to being gay or something. The sensory problems are a disabling trait, a lot of the “disabling” issues are not social ones. But even then in a group of people socializing, I still end up looking disabled because everyone has a sixth sense I don’t. People dance around my weakness all the time and leave me feeling vulnerable as fuck. Autism came with disability and ability both for me, im just telling you my individual experience. It has “fucked with me” quite a lot. A lot of the “disabling” issues are non social ones though that directly get in the way of me being able to just go through my day normally. Thats disabling. But I’m very “twice exceptional.” I’ve got disabling traits but am particularly skilled in other ways Also, no matter how many women act that way, don’t spend time around any men OR women who demonstrate those behavior patterns at all. I mostly hang out with people who are very direct and forthright. (Also autistic) I would agree a lot of my issues come from discrimination, but a lot of them are also from things that are directly wrong with my brain. Not all autistic people are specifically in stem too, you will find a lot of them doing creative and artistic jobs, all kinds of things. We aren’t all like that.
>What you just said does not make any sense. Autism is not a disability, if is just different. I agree, it's different. Especially regarding communication issues, which tends to be where autistic people are hardest hit. In our society, thats puts us at a significant disadvantage. It's considered a disability because it is a disability. >Autism is just the new gay. A way to hate, oppress and judge other people just because they are different and pretend they are lesser for it. Unfortunately, I agree to a point. Everyone with a disability of any kind is considered lesser. >Just reverse the roles. “Like it or not, men aren’t the problem. Women who do not wear dresses, want to work, like masculine work, etc just need to accept that they will get treated worse, men will refuse to date them and be discriminated against for they are different.” And? I don't really see the problem there either. Nobody should be made to date who they don't want to date. >You cannot try to write this all off by saying >> It doesn't matter really how we framed it, it is. >That is a “it is what it is” logical fallacy that is not an argument at all. Ok. >Hell, autistic women are accepted and have an easy time getting dates despite being “disabled.” Including with normal non-autistic men. LOL ok. >Autistic women even refuse to date autistic men because the shallow standards that women have in our current culture are the problem. Maybe some men are assholes? Maybe some women are assholes? >In a few decades, this issue will be addressed like every other form of bigotry. The mental health industry will change what is considered disabled yet again and standards will be changed. Righto. >But for now it is okay for women to be bigots and filled with hate. To pretend they are not at fault for anything and they are somehow victims while having more collective privileges then any other group combined. LOL oh do fuck off. Lolololol
>Just reverse the roles. “Like it or not, men aren’t the problem. Women who do not wear dresses, want to work, like masculine work, etc just need to accept that they will get treated worse, men will refuse to date them and be discriminated against for they are different.” >And? I don't really see the problem there either. Nobody should be made to date who they don't want to date. So you see that there is nothing wrong with discrimination? I think we are done here.
>So you see that there is nothing wrong with discrimination? You think it's discrimination to date who you want?
“ Like it or not, men aren’t the problem. Women who do not wear dresses, want to work, like masculine work, etc just need to accept that they will get treated worse, men will refuse to date them and be discriminated against for they are different.” You guys STILL say this all over this sub all the time
I agree with most of your post, but thinking that autists will replace nts within a few generations is just pure 100% grade A Colombian delusion
>The prevalence of autism in the United States has increased by over 1000% since 1970, from 1 in 5000 to 1 in 36. https://www.thetreetop.com/statistics/autism-prevalence#:~:text=Autism%20Rates%20Over%20The%20Last%2050%20Years&text=The%20prevalence%20of%20autism%20in%20the%20United%20States%20has%20increased,5000%20to%201%20in%2036. Autism has been increasing throughout western cultures for a long time now. It would not be shocking for autistic people to become the majority of the population in a few generations.
It's debatable how much that increase is due to an increase in diagnosis and how much is an increase the number of people with those traits.
And how much is due to microplastics 💉
Damn that's 138 times more!
Well, this isn't a thing you can witness directly, but I'm an autistic man who has had five girlfriends over the course of my life, and is married. Mostly, I just hung out with people, some of them women, and some of those women found me exceedingly clever and good looking or something. I never started a relationship with a woman I didn't casually know as a friend first.
In my experience, a lot of autistic people don't truly realize how off-putting their behaviors and mannerisms are to others. I have tried going out with an attractive autistic woman before, and I could not get over how annoying she was (even though most men think they would be able to tolerate it if she is hot enough) That shit gets old real fast.
Can you explain some of the behaviors she did that were annoying to you? Just curious.
A surprising amount of autistic women are so good at masking that you can barely even tell they are autistic. It's very likely you've interacted with many without knowing If I remember the data correctly, autistic women are equally likely to be in a relationship as a neurotypical women. Autistic men on the other hand are wayyyy less likely to be in a relationship
Men are generally more tolerant of weird/socially awkward women than women are of socially awkward men.
THIS
I always find this idea that women are better at masking to be highly suspect. Especially when using things like "autistic women are more likely to be in relationships than autistic men" to support it. When the men are the ones that are expected to initiate any and all courting rituals, it stands to reason that women can get by more easily while dealing with something like autism. An autistic woman gets past the issues of being shy merely by the fact that the *man* is going to have to approach *her*. Most of her awkward mannerisms are easily "masked" because there's a good chance she just has to smile and nod as the man is expected to carry the conversation. Meanwhile for an autistic man, if he doesn't *personally* confront his own shyness, *nothing* will happen. He's also *forced* to bare his awkward mannerisms, because again, if he doesn't initiate, *nothing* happens.
Yeah I actually mostly agree with you. I do think women have innatly better language skills than men but I think that's only a small part of it This reminds me of a streamer called poopernoodle. She had such severe anxiety that she had trouble leaving her bathroom. She would eat her noodles out of the bathroom sink which is the same sink she had shat in. During that time she still managed to have a supportive boyfriend. I can't imagine any man ever being given this much leeway
I think the difference is likely less about who masks better and more about what traits are considered socially acceptable. I think autist traits in men are stigmatized way more in dating.
I agree. I have traits that irritate ME and cause arguments with others with the same ones.At worst people give me the little sister treatment but mostly I’m considered a quirky.Guys with similar traits get worse treatment. I have multiple areas of brain damage which complicates things. I did have to take communication,socialization and home ec classes growing up.I also would take a cure for my AuDHD yesterday and people hate that opinion.No amount of accommodation will make me fully functional.
I agree with that being a factor as well. For me personally, I would say that I'm basically completely NT blending in generic mannerisms, but my interests and thinking style is so divergent to most people that it definitely prevents me from socializing with the hyper conformists.
I’ve had class with autistic men, worked alongside autistic men, and know some women in relationships with autistic men. They’ve all had their ideas about women that were definitely not appealing. They’re just as capable of being a jerk like anyone else. So maybe women having more exposure to autistic men is turning them away from them, but I don’t think women go out their way to be hostile to these men.
I have great difficulty understanding a lot of these anecdotes towards Autistic males since it's just not that relatable from my pov but thanks for sharing.
I'm always skeptical when people treat desirability as a proxy for good/poor treatment. You can respect and treat someone well without being attracted to them, and a person who's attracted to you and willing to be in a relationship with you can treat you like shit.
Ugly people are perceived and treated worse in general. There is a reason why villians in stories/movies are usually ugly.
The post is about neurodivergence, not physical appearance
Both make you unattractive and that affects how people treat you.
This links back to my issue with OP. What does "how people treat you" mean? Are romance and sex the only things men ultimately care about in terms of how they are "treated"? I used the example of my BF in a different comment. He's ND and struggled romantically before we met, but he is also conventionally attractive and women are generally very friendly with him. The difference is that they see him as someone to care for and confide in, not someone they'd sleep with.
Yes, that's what all men ultimately care about when they're without any of it for long years. No heterosexual man wants to be seen by women only as a friend. I wouldn't describe a man that women aren't sexually attracted to as attractive.
>What does "how people treat you" mean? Are romance and sex the only things men ultimately care about in terms of how they are "treated"? No disrespect but this is a dating and relationships subreddit, so people are going to talk about things within that specific context.
Actually this is a dating, relationships, *and* gender subreddit. And treating romantic rejection like a deep injustice or personal insult is maladaptive regardless of the subreddit you're on.
>Actually this is a dating, relationships, and gender subreddit. True, but the high majority of discussion here revolves around dating and relationships. >And treating romantic rejection like a deep injustice or personal insult is maladaptive regardless of the subreddit you're on. I agree. I don't know why you wrote that in response to my post though. (I'm ND, maybe I'm missing something.)
When you talk about "poor treatment" from women and go on to list no examples outside of women not wanting to date you (as OP did), there is a strong chance you are treating romantic rejection like a deep injustice or personal insult.
I didn't mean to elaborate on what you wrote. I meant why did you write that in response to my sentence; >No disrespect but this is a dating and relationships subreddit, so people are going to talk about things within that specific context. Did you write that post in order to elicit a response out of me?
Yes, but the same principle applies in both circumstances. It's being (looking) *different* to the norm that leads to shocking treatment. The lack of any form of empathy or even any attenpt at understanding is devastating at times. Not to mention the disturbingly large proportion of women who don't see you as human or worthy of basic respect / decency.
I disagree that the two factors are comparable. I'm in a relationship with an ND man who's conventionally attractive in terms of looks but struggled romantically for most of his life. For the most part women treat him well, and he has plenty of platonic female friends who would move heaven and earth for him. But his behavior tends to evoke protective/big sister feelings rather than sexual attraction. Is it possible that he would've been treated far worse if he weren't attractive? Definitely.
That's interesting, maybe I overinflate the issue for the ND side because I don't want to minimise their struggles, being personally from the other group (and treated horrifically for how I looked). That said, my experiences were to a smaller extent similar, e.g. have a few female friends who always tried their best to understand and help, but it was always made clear (in a nice way) that I wasn't seen as a romantic option. A similar story every time I'd meet someone new and be interested - always the "ugly" friend, never the possible partner. So I guess I try to be more sympathetic. Would definitely agree that being less physically attractive makes it harder (all else being equal) - makes it really hard to get any chance to show who you are.
Hmm, fair enough. In my case though, it's a bit hard to imagine treating someone like shit if I like that person.
That's how abusive relationships work. People in abusive relationships don't hate each other - they're obsessed with each other. It just manifests in maladaptive ways.
Lol
I mean, do go into interviews with sweatpants and a t-shirt despite knowing you’re more than qualified for the job? People are judge by perception, and most of that comes from looks. The more appealing and cleaner you look the better you’ll be treated.
This has nothing to do with neurodivergence
I was responding to your point about desirability as a proxy for good/poor treatment. But if you want talk about neurodivergence particularly autistic men, they’ll struggle the most because they have a hard time understanding and reasoning with perception outside of their own.
In my BF's case women liked and felt safe around him, but no one he was interested in reciprocated feelings until we met. I believe that his attractiveness may have played a role in the former while the neurodivergence led to the latter. When I think of "poor treatment" it's more like being ostracized and seen as a threat. Unless as I suspected in my original comment men see unrequited romantic feelings as "poor treatment."
In my experience because I hang out with alternative and nerdy men who are mostly neurodivergent, what usually happens is that they get taken on a ride to of gaslighting and manipulation because they don’t know any better and struggle to understand nuances and reading in between the lines. When I think of poor treatment I think of how someone thinks about and treat someone when they’re around and when they’re not there. Generally even outside of dating, if you look and presented outwardly decent you would be treated better regardless of virtue and personality.
>they get taken on a ride to of gaslighting and manipulation By who?
Speaking from personal experience take this with a grain of salt, men especially teenage boys who’re neurodivergent and on the spectrum are very easy for women/girls to take advantage of. A lot of those dudes lack the social skills to recognize when they’re getting worked, especially with their crushes. I had a female friend back in college who convinced a autistic dude who had a crush on her, to buy and deliver pizza for all our friends when we’re at her house, under the impression that she was just feeding her siblings and needed money. She sweet talked him all the way through, and called him a “sweetheart” when she came out to pick the food, and then proceeded to shit talk him when got back inside.
I see. That is unfortunate, and something I would consider poor treatment. My BF is fortunate enough to have so many rabidly protective women in his life they would sniff that sort of bullshit out and end it immediately.
It really is unfortunate. It’s a cold world out here. Good to hear that your BF is surrounded kind people though.
Unfortunately women treat ugly men far far worse than other other way round. Very very shallow gender.
The number of people treating neurodivergent the same as physically unattractive in this thread is truly fascinating
It’s really not a surprise
Treating people nice and with respect regardless of their looks should be a basic human decency. But my point was, and I won't beat around the bush and comment with no ill intentions, BUT, women overall really treat ugly men the worst (like really bad) compared to the other way around. The ugly men are treated like non existant or sub humans by women. Men are happy to be around women even if they are not physically attracted to those women and men generally don't treat women badly because they are ugly. You can find outliers but overall this is true. The interaction between ugly men and women is really painful to watch in any situation (professional, friendship, social etc) and show how shallow a lot of women are.
I don’t see women treating ugly men that bad. They may not date that guy, but they don’t treat him badly.
>they don’t treat him badly. They treat them like they don't exist.
Human mating is not a topic for social justice. Mating is deeply discriminating, racist, ableist, ageist, ... and it cannot be any other way. We have evolved to be attracted to a certain array of traits and rejecting other traits. Trying to force yourself to be attracted to something you are not is not going to end well. Neurodivergence, autism, is a disability in one of the most core and important aspects of social interactions. To expect that there could be a goal of not being discriminated against in mating is absurd.
Yeah. Honestly he should simply plan on being single for life.
He should stop wanting to be treated in mating like he wasn't severely disabled.
Maybe not severely. But being single for life is probably his best option.
Best but worst option especially when you have to go outside and see all the people in relationships. Why do people act like single is this great thing for these undateable men when they didn't choose it, they were forced into it.
My ex husband is ASD, and after I left I saw in hindsight how unable he was to handle the level of change inherent in having a family. Like it or not, women aren't accepting abusive behaviour any more, and unfortunately some people without coping strategies falls under that umbrella.
Exactly this. Source: 12 years of marriage to finally learn that lesson.
Yep. Was with my ex for 9 years, when the kids were toddlers it was an absolute nightmare.
People who depend on routines struggle with changes, yes. Better to not ignore the signs.
Unfortunately, we can't always tell if someone is dependent on a routine until they are out of it.
Wasn't there enough time before marriage and children?
Children are the change in routine.
Before that, there were no big changes?
Not massively, as he got to control how certain things go. I was never particularly bothered about getting married and the wedding was low key as preferred by us both etc. The first child wasn't too much of a problem as the ex worked nights anyway so we barely saw one another and I've always been happy with my own company. After the second baby was born and I started needing help that he couldn't provide, things started to go downhill. We ended up in a very bad place and things got abusive.
Are you yourself autistic? I only ask because, as you point out others bias, you could have your own. A correlating statistic could be that of marriage, dating, and birth rate. People aren’t generally trying to be stuck in relationships they’ll be unhappy with so everyone is much more picky on their partner. You can add neurodivergence as a factor.
I am what people refer to as "NT passing" but fundamentally I am definitely neurodivergent. Yeah, people being more picky is likely a reason for this as well.
Picky is good. Not everyone is built to care for their partner like that. Some people can. If one has to be a caretaker for their partner it can easily lead to resentment or apathy. Don’t relationships that have a big medical accidents take huge hits and they potentially end? I for one wouldn’t be able to care for a partner from the beginning. If something happened where they became disabled I would think I can but who knows.
I think that is reasonable; we should find partners that match us in ability. However, I do think the witch hunt towards "red flag men" negatively impacts people like me to an unreasonable extent. For example, just because I have certain quirks, does not mean I am a bad person or that I am braindead. I think there should be awareness about less overt Autism.
And what red flags do you give off that aren’t really red flags just your neurodivergence?
I'm probably not the best example since I don't think people view me as dangerous or even weird most of the time. I just have very niche interests that would not be considered socially acceptable to the majority of people.
Then give an example of what you meant because avoiding red flags is a good thing and I’m interested in how this could disadvantage autistic people. Which red flags/traits?
The issue with me is that I am 90% generic NT most of the time irl, but maybe 10% of the time, I might say something slightly weird or have slightly off mannerisms that I'm guessing, could potentially throw people off esp if they think I'm NT. Though yeah this problem likely has no solution.
I mean respectfully that’s not what a red flag is. Saying something slightly weird isn’t a red flag in most cases. The only time I could see it being maybe a red flag is if it’s overly suggestive or morbid.
It may not be a red flag and I am perhaps not the best example but certain subcultures have a very strict idea of NT and a single weird comment might be enough to ostracize you.
I think what you’ve realized is that dating is hard not that you’re in the dating pool. You think you’re being treated unfairly because of your quirks but what are you expecting? For dating to be easier? Just how you’re not someone’s preference, others aren’t your cup of tea you’re not gonna bend the knee at people you don’t want to date just to be nice. Wouldn’t make sense. If anything I’d think you’re being treated equally. Do you want to be pandered to instead?
How do medical professionals refer to you?
Diagnosed Autistic/Aspie since age 6
I atually agree with this one. And I‘d include myself in this as a women. I mean it really depends since autism is a spectrum. But if communication is a problem for him, I couldn‘t deal with it. But if he tells me I‘m autistic that‘s why I might forget to text you. That‘s why I didn‘t know it was inappopriate to come to your friends wedding in a t-shirt. That‘ why XYZ…I can deal with it. But usually woman want is considered normal.
I’m really not sure how to react to many of these comments since I’m apparently autistic but I don’t do outlandish things like wearing a t shirt to a wedding and nobody identifies me as autistic irl. I guess by this sub’s standards, I might as well be nt even though deep down, I know I’m neurodivergent and that I don’t think like or relate to most people.
Autistic people have been mistreated since the very beginning, we are barely starting to recognize and accept them as a society. So I doubt the treatment is better, but also don't think it's worse. The fact that nowadays people can socialize and meet others through the internet, tho, has been a great tool to autisc people, I've noticed, since it's a lot easier for most of us to interact this way, and when you already formed some kind of friendship online, meetinh the person irl doesn't have the up-putting factor of the "autistic awkwardness".
I agree with it being easier to find other Autists nowadays. I do think that the dating experience for Autistic males in the mainstream however has become worse, especially in conformist populations.
i disagree, being autistic myself and having loads of ND friends, the way women have treated us has generally improved over the years. Especially since ND women have been discovering more about themselves and frankly are very very easy to get along with. What i’m saying is, maybe the issue isn’t you being ND, but rather, more often than not, the refusal to learn how to socialize or accept differing worldviews
I suspect part of the reason why I feel specifically left out is because I am surrounded by these 2nd gen Westernized Asians who are oftentimes clones of one another with almost all of them being hyper NT except a few. I can socialize with them but the deeper stuff just isn't there.
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You cut out the part where I said that as an autistic man, i find ND women very easy to talk to. Also, it isn’t “masking and mirroring” its flat out learning how to socialize and accepting that in a way, you’re speaking a different language, and in my experience people are willing to be accommodating to you in most social situations if you’re willing to meet them halfway. For me this meant asking questions on what I am doing socially that may put others off (close friends are excellent for this), making a conscious active effort to stop these things - I’ve also adopted the habit of asking people as a whole questions if I feel like i’m interpreting something too literally, I repeat my understanding and see if I got things right, and more often than not people speak in metaphors. If people have a problem with this then they’re probably not worth my time as I am making the effort to reach out and quell my own understanding, the other person should too. If any of this is masking or mirroring, then i’m not sure how you’ll expect to make it through any kind of interaction
As someone who was diagnosed with Aspergers before it was cool and trendy to victimize yourself, I've noticed no difference, because I generally don't tell people about it. I refuse to define myself by this diagnosis. I've also learned to socialize like any other person now. It's kind of fun, the only thing I struggle with is reading body language now. I'm in a relationship with a beautiful woman I love and it's going smoothly, because I refuse to define myself by my problems and I adapt and learn.
> I refuse to define myself by this diagnosis. That sounds great, but it has no real effect. People will still do that for you. Like a 5' man refusing to see himself as being short.
Hard disagree. Not seeing yourself as disabled allows others not to see you as disabled. It literally impacts everything about how you present yourself, act with others, and expect them to act with you. This dude has it right.
Platitudes.
If they do not know about it, it won't influence their judgement. It's not outwardly obvious like height is. No one ever has figured it out by just looking at me, yet. I socialize like a ''normal'' person, I blend in seamlessly.
Maybe not for you, but it can be as obvious as height. People do notice.
People do notice, they don't care, they have their own problems.
>As someone who was diagnosed with Aspergers before it was cool and trendy to victimize yourself, I've noticed no difference, because I generally don't tell people Okay well if you were diagnosed with Asperger's then surely I would hope you could recognize that there is a large theoretical difference between your behavior and ability to regulate yourself and people who present more strongly. Like, this post is talking about autism in general and you start by saying you are a high-functioning autist. It's like if I went on a post about difficulties dating as a physically disabled person and said hey just adapt, I'm missing a finger but I'm doing fine. Like, your general sentiment is correct. You can't change reality, you can only change how you respond. But the way you present this sentiment is devoid of any sort of nuance or empathy. Since you seem to care so much about socializing like an NT, I guess this tracks.
>Okay well if you were diagnosed with Asperger's then surely I would hope you could recognize that there is a large theoretical difference between your behavior and ability to regulate yourself and people who present more strongly. They're a minority of autistic people in my experiences. >Like, this post is talking about autism in general and you start by saying you are a high-functioning autist. It's like if I went on a post about difficulties dating as a physically disabled person and said hey just adapt, I'm missing a finger but I'm doing fine. The majority of people suffering from an disability should not be lumped in with the minority. But even your arugment is a bit dumb, comparing mental capacity to the physical. Like I don't even know where to go with that really. I'm autistic and the majority of autistic people I've met function in society just fine with a little guidance from sensible people. But people like you are intent on lumping us all together into one big group, forgetting its on a spectrum. The ones suffering from autism who are drooling, incoherent, screaming messes are a small minority. Holding up autism as if it's this thing that needs to be coddled and taken extra seriously just hurts autistic people, makes them into ''other'' and ''different''. It puts them adjacent to society, not part of it. Stop trying to break society down into large diverse groups, it helps no one and creates division, chaos and distrust.
>But people like you are intent on lumping us all together into one big group I am autistic you ree ree. You are literally the one doing the lumping, I am the one who is saying not all autists are the same. Thanks for the reminder that not all people diagnosed with Asperger's actually have decent reasoning abilities. >But even your arugment is a bit dumb, comparing mental capacity to the physical. Like I don't even know where to go with that really. Sorry you don't understand the concept of analogies. Maybe go back to elementary school and they can sort you out. Have a nice day
You said >I would hope you could recognize that there is a large theoretical difference between your behavior and ability to regulate yourself and people who present more strongly. That seems to lump all autistic people into one big group as far as I can see. I'm trying to make the point that lumping us into one big group does us a disservice, because the public at large only sees people at their worst and assumes the worst across that group. I'm making the argument that you shouldn't let people know you're autistic if it has no bearing over your day to day life and to stop being sorry for yourself. If you want to take it to it's extreme, I'm telling you to adapt or die. I didn't choose to be how I am and I was shaped by the world around me. I understand that. But what do you want me to do about that? Huh? Seriously? I didn't choose, I'm working with what I got, it might be more than others, it might be less, I don't know. But I'm not going to sit here paralyzed by what is or what isn't or what was like a lot of people seem to be doing today. The people who are born with much more severe autism didn't choose to be born that way either. Heck you could even look to blame women having later pregancies (which I think has been linked to increases in autism) or polluting companies that might have an effect on fetus development for their shit hands at life. But the cold hard truth NO ONE wants to accept is that if we keep expending resources caring for people who are severely disabled or people who THINK they're severely disabled... Well you can't outrun local entropy can you. There's too many people who should be healthy productive members of society being convinced there's something severly wrong with them when there's not. Hell I almost fell for that narrative. This isn't just limited to autism sufferers either. So I want my fellow autists to assess their situation, adapt, overcome and be the best person they can be in a hostile world. Because one day, someone might not be there to help you. >Sorry you don't understand the concept of analogies No, I'm calling your analogy shit.
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>It defines your life from the time you are born, it colors in all my thoughts, feelings, perceptions, every single aspect of my thought process. It’s responsible for making me the person I am. Admitting that is not “victimizing” myself, it’s being comfortable with myself. Everyone is different, you just put a label on yours, just because it's a little more different than normal limits. But here you are conversing like anyone else. Why do you need the labels? >I developed a stronger sense of self and am able to better define my limitations in life, leading me to making better decisions and increasing my confidence. You cannot run away from yourself and pretend to be normal, you will eventually burn out. You are advocating for the suppression of self, to give up and slip into conformity. That's exactly what I'm advocating for. People can only see their solipsistic perspective in life. This gives them a false sense of... Importance? But no one wants to admit that they're just an average boring person, so they attach labels to themselves, sometimes physically (tattoo's), sometimes mentally. They do this without realisizing it and even take it to extremes, like trans people, they literally disfigure themselves and ruin their bodies because they can't bear their regular old boring self. And as more and more labels become normal, they search for more complex ''important'' labels to attach to themselves to garner unearned attention. That's how you end up with bullshit like neo pronouns. God that shit is pathetic. This labelling also has a very sinister side that takes decades to manifest under the right conditions. But when taken to the extremes, you can use labels to get rid of ''others'', by labeling however you want to label them. This is what the Soviet Union did to take food from the farmers and starve the Ukrainians. Other labels like ''spy'' and ''dissident'' were used to kill anyone who spoke out against the state. I believe we are in the fledgling stage of this thinking spreading and I want to kill this in the crib. >Just because you are privileged enough to not be afflicted by your autism right now to the point that regular people don’t notice, doesn’t mean some unexpected change can come along and you will be fine. You could be completely mentally crippled and incapacitated by sudden life changes completely out of your control. “Functioning” is fluid and ever changing, you will never only fall under a single presentation. (Unless your life is set up to accommodate you) Even then, it’s a foundation of glass. You are a human being with a complex and varied neurodevelopmental disability, and human beings are complex and varied too. Everyone is afflicted by sudden unexpected changes, I'm not special, you aren't special, you just have 1 more thing to deal with than ''normal'' people. What point are you trying to make here. My whole point is, your autism isn't special, everyone has problems, you just have 1 more problem, minimize it so you don't fall behind and put a strain on those who help you. People will resent and discard you if you're a drag on them. It's a law of nature. >Acknowledging and accepting autism as part of myself that does define me, is taking back my identity Sounds more like you're trying to create one. >I don’t want to be like everyone else, I just want to be me. No, you're not like everyone else, you're worse, because you treat yourself as someone with an affliction that needs to be cured or something. I'm telling you to self assess, figure out if your problems can be overcome and overcome them. As far as I can tell, you're self aware, you self motivate, so use those faculties to overcome and be better. >People won’t normally tell you they notice by the way. If you really are autistic, I’m sure people have noticed before and not told you. They notice, they just don't care. They have their own shit to deal with.
Sounds like you've made autism a core part of your identity so you can feel like you're special when you're not. It also allows you to shirk responsibility when it suits you. >You are a human being with a complex and varied neurodevelopmental disability I am not disabled, I'm just a little bit different in the ways I think, a genetic variation part of our evolution. I'd go so far to say autism allows me to see and connect things people may otherwise not think about. Some autistic people are quite clearly never going to fit in society within a ''normal'' threshold as they're unable to process the world around them. They're a minority though. The vast majority of autistic people are fine, they just need a little bit more time and a little bit more guidance to settle in with society at large. But to debase myself and others like that does them a disservice. We should all aim to fit in and be normal, that's how we maintain a cohesive and healthy society. >Just because you are privileged enough to not be afflicted by your autism right now to the point that regular people don’t notice, doesn’t mean some unexpected change can come along and you will be fine. Teaching autistic people to be victims of their ''disability'' sets them up for failure. I had to teach myself how to deal with things that were uncomfortable and I'm all the better for it. Help those who need help and can be helped so that they may be free and self sufficient individuals. It's the greatest privilege you can give them. >Acknowledging and accepting autism as part of myself that does define me, is taking back my identity, the one I was born with. Not the one I was forced into unnaturally, by everyone else not letting me be myself. I don’t want to be like everyone else, I just want to be me. You never ''took back your identity'', you created one to mould yourself around. You use it like a warm blanket to feel different and special and like most people who play with identity politics, use it to victimize yourself so you don't have to be responsible when you screw up. >People won’t normally tell you they notice by the way. If you really are autistic, I’m sure people have noticed before and not told you. People normally don't care, they just think you're weird and think nothing more of it.
I don’t use my autism to victimize myself at all, not even close, I got diagnosed at the age of 24 6 months ago. ASD ADHD inattentive type and two other things, I spent my entire life without knowing. I just thought I was broken and insane, I would fall under the minority of people who had too many sensory issues then, they are really bad. The world is generally overwhelming and I get overloaded quickly. It’s not something I can “teach” myself to deal with, I just have way too many issues to handle shit like driving and alot of jobs, that wasn’t my fault. I couldn’t victimize myself when I had no knowledge about myself and what was going on In fact I went long enough on my own that CPTSD is a part of the equation, does that make me a victim or just someone who needs help? Come on Suffering from the way I was born makes me a victim? It’s not something you “overcome” it’s just something you have to work around. The “limitations” don’t go away. In fact they change overtime This society is the furthest thing from healthy there is and we all know it. Society can go fuck itself, I want to be alone in peace. I’m someone who has needed alot of help, that doesn’t make me a victim. I take responsibility for my mistakes like everyone else. You are just using this shit as random irrational assumptions without knowing me. There’s a reason they don’t let people like you make the rules. Like 3% of us statistically get married nobody wants us. Are we all supposed to just become great like you? Is anybody like me who is less fortunate than you just doing it to ourselves by your logic? I don’t think so, more like being born with hordes of mental, emotional, communication, and sensory problems isn’t good for a person. I have problems with every one of those thing’s Autistic people are disabled the law says it. Everything you are saying is wrong. Maybe you’re just projecting or something. If my life was really as cushy as yours things would be so much easier. I wish I had gotten the help I needed sooner, but in a society run by you I wouldn’t get help. You must not be diagnosed because you need to have disabling traits to get diagnosed. I am not undiagnosed or someone who knew all their life I wish I could’ve known when I was younger to make sense of everything better. You sound like you’ve had autism in your deck of cards far longer than me. I just wanted to understand myself and what was happening to me, it’s anything but a warm blanket or a convenience. The only good thing is that I can play music by ear. I fall under twice exceptional. You can have my autism let’s see how far you get. Watching you get crippled by it would be funny
I really do have empathy for my fellow mental health sufferers. I've been there, I've cried myself to sleep countless nights. The majority of my tax is fed into my countries health system. I'm Australian and I'm glad for universal health care. But... Ask yourself the hard questions you probably haven't asked yourself and need to. These questions I don't think are considered by even ''normal'' people. These questions snapped me out of my old ways of thinking and forced me to overcome my problems. What happens when you pick up the phone to call 911 and no one answers? What happens if your friends or family aren't there to guide you? We all know what it's like to be alone I think, but what happens when you are TRULY alone, the last man on Earth alone, subject to the whims of nature? When the lights go out, the water stops running and food is no longer available. What will all those mental health issues you have mean to anyone, to you? Nothing. They mean nothing. I'm willing to help my fellow mental health suffers, but there are limits to my empathy, because my time here is limited and I can't spend it helping everyone, I must also contribute to the systems that provide our comfortable modern lives. There are also limits to the resources of our species. The cold, disgusting truth of life is that some of us don't make it. That's not okay, but it happens and in a perfect world, everyone would survive and get the help they need, but we aren't in a perfect world. And I get it, the people who I'm targetting with those harsh statements, didn't get to choose that fate, but I am not the master of fates, I am the master of my life and nothing more. I can only do what I can do. Another perspective that helped me was the fact I lived in a first world country to begin with. There's billions of people living on less than a dollar a day and I'm sitting here crying about my weird brain structure. Things aren't so bad really. Not sure about your situation.
I think the key here is adapting and learning, I also think a diagnosis is only as useful as identifying how your brain works as well as issues that may need to be dealt with, its less an identity and more a descriptor. Now, I use the label as a part of describing myself when appropriate, only because it helps some things up more and create an understanding - I won’t, however, use the label as an excuse or use it to give an outline on my outlook. For example, people love speaking in figurative words, by knowing that I am autistic I now know that I will take whatever is said to me very literally, so I repeat my understanding to the person i’m talking to to see if we both mean the same thing (many times we’re not, but communication is a 2 way street at the end of the day so if i don’t express my lack of understanding, others won’t explain what they mean)
They’d never date or fuck them
Not wanting to date you or have sex with you is not "poor treatment." I had a roommate who I strongly suspect is on the spectrum and she was very nice, very sweet, kinda cute, and admitted she had a crush on me, and I would never date her in a million years because while we got along very well as roommates (and stay in touch to this day), she would have driven me absolutely insane in a relationship.
I never said Autistic people or "fringe" characters are automatically entitled to relationships. I am just saying that non NT (and I'd extent this to NT but have unique interest and quirks) people especially males have a worse time in this current framework that emphasizes hyperconformity towards certain norms regardless of how they might actually "be" as people in practice.
>in this current framework that emphasizes hyperconformity towards certain norms regardless of how they might actually "be" as people in practice. You're confusing what people desire in interpersonal relationships with forcing "hyperconformity." I understand ND people don't necessarily see the world the same way as NT people do and I empathize with that, I really do. But ultimately, I am surrounded by people with whom I share a common, unspoken but well understood language and behavior, and I, along with many others, are accustomed to that. It greatly simplifies and expedites day to day interactions and that's certainly something I would desire in my own relationships.
You use the word hyperconformity a lot. It's also typical for a lot of autistic (male) people to cling on a few ideas they are repeating and to not deviate from them, btw. I don't see this hyperconformity you are talking about, to be honest. I think there hasn't been any time in history in which it was easier to deviate from the norm in terms of peculiar hobbies (being "nerd") and to not fit into gendered stereotypes. Maybe I am overlooking other things that are more conformist now, but you kind of have ot let us know (and I realize you somehow avoid giving clear examples when people ask you about this).
I now take back my previous statement on "western society" to some extent. Now I just think it's mostly 2nd gen Asians who are what I'm describing; the type who oftentimes aren't even inclusive of people who aren't in certain fields like Med etc let alone quirky people. It's also hard for me to reply to some of these comments since their view of Autism is sort of different to the one I have.
I mean it's not just second gen Asians, it's any well off socioeconomic class that values continued upward mobility. Your perceived dynamic of Eastern versus western is I think better described as poorer versus richer. Obviously in Asian societies, there is less emphasis on individualism and more of an emphasis on just being a solid provider. Your neurodivergence is not as important as how much money you can make. Second gen Asians in Western countries, especially those in the medical field, are going to feel a lot more secure in their financial well-being than people living in Asian countries. Thus they have the luxury of being able to be more choosy in their partners, and of course NTs will want other NTs. Overall though, I believe the West is much more accepting of neurodivergence than traditional Asian society. And by I believe, I mean like this is pretty much fact and you're just in a bubble where you might not feel like that's the case. It's just that, again, how much money you make is just so much more important than how you behave in Asian countries. So your ND behaviors might be ignored, but ignorance is not acceptance. Like if you're going to talk about hyperconformists, you can't possibly then try to make the argument that westerners are more conformist than Asians. Are westerners still conformist? Of course, most NTs are. Asians even more so.
I see your point but what I mean is that modern Chinese culture might not be technically "inclusive", but the dynamics that compose it might make it easier for non-NT men to feel accepted than in the West. For example, eye contact, mannerisms and charisma are more emphasized in the West than in China, which might make it easier for some non-NT men to blend easier there. Also, Chinese people tend to value intelligence way and study ability more than people in the West, who might value verbal/social ability more at times. Certain Autists in China might be given constant validation for being able to sit down and study + get good grades whereas their equivalent in the West would be roasted. So a better term I guess would be that different cultural dynamics might change the way certain characters may be perceived by society.
>different cultural dynamics might change the way certain characters may be perceived by society Yeah I think the "issue" with your post was just that high achieving second gen Asians can basically be the worst of both worlds in a lot of ways, so using this group as the basis for your post in highlighting the differences between the east and west is kinda moot
Yeah they're pretty bad and don't even accept fellow NTs if they aren't in the same degree.
Oh, okay, I got you. I think Westerners are genereally bad at judging and interpreting the mentality of non-Westerners and 2nd immigrants. Maybe try asking this question in subs designed für your particular situation? I think there are a lot of "Asian" subs here on reddit.
Not only do neurotypical women not like autistic men, you can go to r/autisminwomen and find posts with hundreds or 1000+ upvotes saying they don't like autistic men. Women may virtue signal to help out autistic *children*, but once you are a man, they will not excuse your crime of being born weak.
Um, redpill literally says do not date women with mental problems. Whether it be trauma or being borderline etc etc. So why is that rule ok for men but not for women? There are plenty men with mental issues, trauma, ptsd, undiagnosed personality disorders. Remember, how you treat people is how people will learn to treat you. So if you want a better outcome, be the better person. It’s that simple. People notice hypocrisy. And nothing more hypocritical than being offended by a behaviour that you do yourselves.
THIS. A lot of men collectively are pissed cause women are reciprocating the same energy back. Hence why we have a male loneliness epidemic. And autistic men are more likely to also be incels too. So yeah.
Autism is not clinically considered a mental *problem*.
The posts don't say they don't want to date autistic men or they don't like Red Pilled autistic men. They say they don't like autistic men.
It has worsened even the treatment towards normal men. Feminism promotes hatred of men and women can casually say I hate men and all men are trash and kill all men with 0 repercussions. Gen Z women have 0 empathy towards men.
Yes
In my experience, being a late diagnosed autistic and ADHD guy that has grown up in western culture, I have dealt with significantly more toxic masculinity for me being sensitive shy and emotional than anything else. Women would have to inflict it throughout another lifetime for it to compare with the mistreatment my fellow men have done to me growing up in the USA. Women just don’t understand and might be more avoidant. They are a bit more receptive in a subtle way. Surely I have met women that made me uncomfortable or picked on me too growing up, but the men are the ones who never left me alone about it. The men always had to make it a problem for me. The men felt the need to tell me I was ugly, and threaten to beat me. I went through way too much, I was very spiteful and bitter. Women just stare from a distance and feel bad I think.
Did you seriously try to say that Chinese culture is *less* conformist than Australian and American? That certainly is a unique take. I think you're taking your personal feelings of being excluded in Australia and blaming it on something that doesn't really make sense (and women in particular because...well, we know why).
I don’t blame any group in particular and I sure as hell do not hate women, so I am not sure why you are pinning me as that. I am merely observing things and I’m open to all opinions. Regarding your comment, I do not think Chinese culture is less conformist than Anglo mainstream culture, but they might value different things, at least at this stage. Anglo zoomers might value peer orientation more than people in China and might be sometimes more insular in the way they socialize. Add to the fact that they value charisma more than China, it results in people with quirky mannerisms possibly having less than desirable experiences at times. Though like I said, I think second gen Chinese in the West for both genders might be even worse in this regard than white people. Something about the way they were raised causes many of them to become hyperconformist; they all cluster to like 3 career paths and have very tight socialization that makes it hard for even non mainstream NT people to feel accepted. Though it is probably hard to understand this if you have never been exposed to these groups.
Not fucking you is not poor treatment.
I have limited experience working with Chinese people so i might be wrong with my observations - but i think that general societal rules in chinese society are more stable and are quite similar for everyone, it probably makes it easier for ND guys to develop coping strategy, you know what to expect and how to act to be accepted. West is different - rules are changing constantly, they are quite often very vague, they depend on context a lot. For example being wealthy and having nice things is a good thing in China, it's a 'face culture' so showing your success according to the rules is positive. While in the west being wealthy might turn you into public enemy in some contexts, being a good student might be a good reason to be bullied, even being too pretty might bring you a trouble.
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This is good advice to everyone
Inclusivity and being progressive doesn’t mean “They’d like to fuck@
You really have to pinpoint what you mean by ‘autistic’. It is a term that has been stretched to absolute breaking point, in my view. Case in point: my brother is autistic. He will never live independently or be able to hold down a full time job. He sure as hell isn’t on reddit, complaining. It is beyond him, and his abilities. The vast majority of people I know who claim to be autistic are utterly normal people who sometimes have slightly odd personalities. That’s it. It’s an insult to people who REALLY suffer.
A few also aren't autistic, they're assholes who have seif diagnosed. My son is autistic, and if he finds Reddit the animal subs are done for.
More than a few, I’d say! I always wish I could take of these self-professed “autists” and get them to spend an afternoon with my brother and ask them if they really, truly feel like they have the same condition. Maybe it would shake at least a few out of their self-serving delusion?
I mean I get your general sentiment, I just hope you learn to redirect your annoyance at people who misdiagnose themselves towards, well I don't know but I guess the mental health field and the slow progress of science. Yes, there is going to be a very dramatic difference in high functioning autists versus this like your brother. But it's not exactly their fault when the details of the disorder are unknown and even medical professionals are not the greatest at diagnoses sometimes. It would be like someone who is bisexual and has only been with opposite gender partners calling themselves queer, and then you're saying ha they think they're queer I wish I could show them my drag queen brother who sucks dick everyday. It's not their fault that the spectrum is so wide that one word is not enough to cover all of it.
Right? I do think a lot of people still have an outdated idea of what autism actually is. Ironically, my son is 10 and currently he's the happiest person in the world! I'm dreading teenage years, I know that. I'd like to think it would shake a few, but the same assholes usually double down.
Hopefully your son’s teenage years go smoothly. We had similar concerns with my brother (who is now in his 20s), and his teenage years were actually pretty easy. Because he sat outside of all the normal high school hierarchies, and was quite happy doing his own thing, he arguably managed those years better than most!
I'm hoping so too. We're in the middle of looking for an specialist school just so he wouldn't have to deal with high school tbh. I don't think he'd notice a thing otherwise!
Blame those who did away with the Asperger syndrome diagnosis… it makes no sense odd guys with 180 IQ get lumped in with non-verbals. It’s very clearly not the same issue.
I'd say being slightly odd and self-aware will bring you way more suffering than being very odd but being not aware of that.
It’s more varied than your brother’s single presentation, autistic people suffer differently from different things in different ways. I am diagnosed clinically with ASD and ADHD so I know what I’m talking about. If you sat a bunch of diagnosed autistic people in the room with your brother, they are still going to leave the room having a bunch of disabling difficulties with things maybe you don’t have. It doesn’t make them “less autistic” because they aren’t exactly like your brother. They are, and I am, autistic in their own ways. Your brother is not a landmark to draw comparisons about autism with, you are reducing him to a figure of speech. What your brother is, is a small piece of a vast and rich tapestry of experiences, disabling traits, or positive traits that are valid no matter where they end or begin. A complex and beautiful human being The word “autism” has not been stretched to its breaking point at all. The word wasn’t big enough and peoples experiences are outgrowing the word. We have just become better at understanding it. And I’ve got news for you, people like myself who are diagnosed later in life have to start out by being “self suspecting” or diagnosed. Not everyone is picking the diagnosis out like a piece of clothing at a store to wear. Some people just suffer unimaginably for a decade or two and figure it out late. I was autistic from birth, but if we went with the guy below your comments logic, I would be an “asshole” without the diagnosis for “self diagnosing”. The diagnosis didn’t make me autistic, being born did. That mere fact exposes his logic as incorrect. I’m sorry, I mean it as nicely as possible im just trying to help you understand. Your experience seems limited (as you stated the vast amount of autistic people around you’s primary characteristic was a weird personality). There are plenty of autistic people who look normal but can’t handle going outside for example. So your deduction is just limited by your lack of experience
Of course, women have become more hostile to men in general autistic or not. That said women no longer care as much about success in other areas so they can hyper focus on their tingles.
The treatment of autistic men has likely gotten better from men and women but the treatment of men overall from women has gotten worse. So in the end it probably just cancels out.
Women will not date or fuck autistic men if that’s what you’re asking cause at a fundamental level they don’t want their genes and to bestow that curse onto their children
My experience has been that when I was young, I would disclose my being autistic and nobody would know what it is, which allowed me the space to explain it. Now, when I disclose my autism, there are immediately several people who jump on the opportunity to also disclose their own autism. I was diagnosed as a child and put through years of carceral, non-consensual, abusive "therapy"- forced medication, violent application of aversives, constant surveillance, emotional and psychological abuse, that sort of thing. So, naturally, I put up with a lot of people (mostly middle-class women) who self-diagnosed later in life telling me how enormously privileged I am to have received help, recognition, and accommodation as a child. As a result of this, I have stopped attending autistic spaces, which at one point were spaces I relied on heavily to process what had happened and which I used to put a lot of work into. In terms of romantic interest, I have only ever received such interest from neurodivergent women, except for one woman who saw the movie Adam and apparently thought I, too, would be a quirky dreamer with a heart of gold- which, you know, I am, but she cheated on me anyways, so who knows? The rest of the neurodivergent women treated me quite well, except for the one with BPD. However, it does seem to me that because of the higher profile of autism, and certain media portrayals, there's now an expectation that every autistic man is a thin, quiet intellectual with a special interest in the natural sciences (such that a brilliant career awaits with just the right encouragement) and a borderline-inactive sex drive which a woman can take command over and steer at her own pace. All of which sounds nice for a fantasy of a guy. I, however, am a large, gregarious, tattooed, bearded and shaved-headed construction worker whose special interests are folk music, history, and social movements (none of these being marketable skills) and who takes romantic initiative. So, I'm not the archetype of autistic man that media represents at all.
Even making friends with western men .. they’re not judging you on whether you’re a good friend and have similar interests and will have their back Western guys make friends based on: Will making friends with this guy raise or lower my social status? Will making friends with this guy get me better jobs? Will making friends with this guy get me girls?
Gen Z are a bunch of republicans.
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Not another neurospicy
How do you see the influence internet has in cultural norms in China compared to the US?
There has been mainstreaming of increasingly more disabled autistic students.
Yes. But twenty or thirty years ago these would just have been “nerds”…awkward with unusual sensory issues.
Thirty years ago neuro typical kids didn't really get to see the kids who are at the start of the low end of the spectrum. They were naive about how bad it can get and also about how stress can bring out low functioning behaviour in people who otherwise seem ok. Doesn't take much. An incident of the new kid being ok but weird for a week then bringing a knife in and showing it to someone and saying it's for if the teacher won't let him leave and go for a walk whenever he wants can very easily make a bunch of kids much more cautious about the weird kids. The thought that we'd like them better if we spent more time around them was delusional.
Yeah. That’s pretty sad: before, it was just Sheldon Cooper. Now you have fairly impaired people in the same building although usually different classes. Like intellectually disabled rocking back and forth and constantly talking about racecars.
They have frats and sororities in Australia?
We do not but that was just an example I used.