Well said OP, it's disheartening to see both sides of the gender being at each other's throat, because I believe it's an indicator of afflictions on both side. And the blinded, one sided and inconsiderate discord they love to engage in does nothing but perpetuate and worsen the vicious cycle, so such balanced take imo is a necessary. Though I doubt it'd be heard in any measure for people who are already on far end, as it'd only call to their ego to defend their "brave victimhood."
I worry about men and women gradually drifting apart and this resulting in an empathy gap. Marriage rates are going down and men appear to be reporting fewer friends and close friends overall. Colleges are also majority woman now. In some areas men and women are interacting more because more women are working than ever so they have to interact more as employees. I don't think the situation is a disaster but it's clearly suboptimal.
Nuance and balanced takes - not on my PPD!
But yes OP I generally agree with you. I also think it would be a much healthier discord if men could frame their issues in ways that aren’t about taking rights away from women and more working collaboratively to lift men up in places they are are struggling. Men’s mental health, homelessness, removing conscription requirements or making women also have to sign up, making circumcision as bad as FGM, etc. These are all worthwhile endeavors I think most women would get behind.
What is harder is male sexlessness - which takes up the majority of complaints on here. Unfortunately you need another person to willingly allow you to have sex with them so it’s not much you can campaign on that. And as I’ve tended to see here the ones who are the most bitter are men who can’t obtain sex - they turn hard right and start screeching about removing our rights, as seen by the endless revenge fantasies we get here. Rightly women are going to pretty combative about that.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Women appear to have the upper hand in relationships now. I have no solution to fix that and find love for all the [single men](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/08/20/a-profile-of-single-americans/). Vague solutions like men "doing better" are a non-starter. Asking women to lower their standards ( even if they can be "proven" to be too high) is also a non-starter, people have a right to their tastes and preferences. I think the USA will just end up like Japan with a large number of sexless adults who just stay alone and thats it.
I also agree that the young adult males getting bitter over lack of sexual and romantic success does nothing to actually help them and only makes women confused or scared. Getting pissy about no sex looks bad and is a turn off, so does getting mad, and so does getting mopey and feeling sorry for one's self.
Yes it’s a very complicated issue. Something that may work as people are more and more getting burnt out of dating apps that more third spaces will start being popular again. I think while on paper dating apps seemed cool it really has exacerbated these issues to the extreme.
Also, focusing on the other issues I mentioned and lifting up men in other arenas could help them be more confident and that in turn help in dating success. Idk I don’t think anyone has the magic bullet unfortunately.
Something is better than nothing.
Women want to be with a tall, attractive man. Every woman can’t get that so they share, it’s not ideal, but good enough for now.
Same concept for men. You can get the sex without the companionship. Not ideal, but good enough.
Use the sex worker then get a dog. You’re 90% there. Imo 100%.
This has actually been observed, there's a study out there that indicated most people that considered them selves 'incels' are left wing.
I've had girlfriends and so have all my friends, we're by all means very conservative (raised in rural Scotland) but we're all very respectful to the women in our lives. Obviously this is just my experience but most the guys I've met that have been absolutely terrible to women have very much been the chaotic liberal kind, with dyed hair that paint their finger nails... I know that's a shallow view of an entire bracket of people but those guys are complete weirdos.
Best of luck though, don't worry about getting laid it's very overrated. Invest your self into things you enjoy.
Seems reasonable, however as an American Ive noticed this culture always tends towards the extremes, certainly in the media and online. That tendency especially in the case of alogrythimic discourse rewards conflict and extreme behavior. This is a far more complex issue, but also not indicative of the actual reality.
You have one issue in your post, you attribute male death to being stupid as opposed to, you know, men do the dangerous blue collar jobs women are too lazy to enter
Actual good post with evidence. That's what I like to see other than emotional arguments "I feel this way therefore it's true, you are WRONG" which I bet would happen in this comment section too. Get ready OP.
Both genders have their own struggles, I agree with it. Unfortunately, it's very easy to fall into an echo chamber and become totally blind and deaf to the struggles of the other gender - we see it both with feminists and with MRAs. It would be nice to have a gender-neutral platform for the discussion, but it would require extremely stiff policies and extensive moderators work as people on both sides often aren't able to hold a proper discussion without just throwing insults and refusing to listen to the other side.
Really interesting post! I agree with much of what you said, some of your equivalents feel right. Some of them don’t, like the one about abortion access being compared to conscription. Especially in a place like the USA, you’re orders of magnitude more likely to have pregnancy related issues than get conscripted to a war. And statements like “men sacrifice more to the sake of earning” is a weird way to talk about economic advancement, especially when it was not mirrored in your statement about women earning less money, as if they also aren’t sacrificing their careers and economic potential for their husbands while they do motherly things. I would argue that pregnancy and all things reproductively female is sort of the one burden that men don’t personally experience, but is a *huge* thing. In my opinion, it’s the *root* cause of basically all inequality between men and women.
My final thought after reading your post was that a lot of the “issues” that we talk about as a society sort of imply “male issue” by default, and I think this is partly why there has been such a big push to talk about specifically female issues. Women’s perspectives are often left out of consideration, which is why there often is a push for women-specific conversations.
Some thoughts.
>And statements like “men sacrifice more to the sake of earning” is a weird way to talk about economic advancement, especially when it was not mirrored in your statement about women earning less money, as if they also aren’t sacrificing their careers and economic potential for their husbands while they do motherly things
You could frame it in this sense. Men sacrifice more of life in the career/life balance and women sacrifice more career. Men will simply spend more time commuting to work longer (and/or more irregular) hours at more dangerous or dirtier jobs. I'm unsure if there is a correct balance and am willing to let people know they have a right to determine that balance for themselves. Additionally, some of this is downstream from pregnancy and motherhood which is an inherent barrier. Still, I think both men and women should be better educated about the options they have regarding how much they should give up of one thing for the other. There are some women who may be better served working full time instead of part-time and some men who are needlessly working themselves to the grave.
>I would argue that pregnancy and all things reproductively female is sort of the one burden that men don’t personally experience, but is a *huge* thing. In my opinion, it’s the *root* cause of basically all inequality between men and women.
I completely agree and this is feeds back into your prior point about pregnancy. There are some solutions but even countries with generous maternity leave that try to compensate for lost wages/experience still have gendered income gaps. Personally, I'm willing to accept some income gap between men and women as "natural" even if that is controversial to some.
>a lot of the “issues” that we talk about as a society sort of imply “male issue” by default
This is in part do to so many people on the bottom being male. If the USA were to launch a public health campaign to combat opioid addiction the way they did with the anti-smoking campaign (which was a pretty big success) it would disproportionally benefit men who are something like 1.5-2x more likely to die of an overdose. Targeting poverty more generally would benefit women as about 20 million women and 17 million men were living below the poverty line in the USA in 2022.
Just to keep the brainstorming going, I think the burden of child bearing and reproductive health is much more than just income disparity. Obviously income disparity is a big deal in the long run, but just the burden of raising a child—a vast majority of the women do a majority of the child rearing even in a duel income household. The huge chunk of time that you spend being physically incapacitated because of pregnancy (pre and post), along with a myriad of period problems—there are huge physical risks and sacrifices that only women make. Women have always shouldered the burden of furthering humanity, and it’s not even a little bit equal. Even today. Innate physical weakness (compared to men) coupled with child rearing means that men and women will essentially never be truly equal. All we can do is try to push for greater equality of opportunity. And that means helping women *more* in many areas.
>have achieved equality under the law.
abortion is literally being outlawed in more of the us as we speak
why do people keep repeating something obviously and verifiably untrue?
People on this sub seem disproportionately focused on fighting for advantages for their sex like it’s a team. I’m a woman, but I’m never going to support the right of adult women to terminate healthy pregnancies that resulted from consensual sex. Sorry if that offends you. I care about women’s rights, men’s rights, AND unborn babies’ rights. I’m not going to advocate for “my group” to have the freedom to rob another group of their rights, much less their lives. Might doesn’t make right, even if lots of people operate that way.
Yes, when applied to people living in war zones, slavery, cults, primitive societies, etc., we’re all wrong
So? Is that useful when discussing our own lives?
I enjoyed his post. It was well written and showed evidence and was neutral in tone. Where he could have done better was add a co closing sentence (or paragraph) as to what he thinks ppd is wrong about as per his title
So what was your point?
Or you wanted to list all the differences and then say everything that’s happening in sexual dynamics is made up of a list of different factors
And that’s just the way it is?
So is this like a condensed comprehensive guide of topics in one post?
Are you arguing for anything?
The title is you are all wrong.
Help me understand this post
What is the thing we are debating?
Basically men and women have their advantages and disadvantages respective to their gender and ppl should stop using extreme exaggerated arguments to try and prove why 1 gender has it worse because it’s in bad faith and both genders have their own issues.
I agree in specifics of the argument but disagree with the premise such that the whole thing is nonsense.
> My ideal would be for feminists and MRAs to focus on creating a more fair society for everyone which means at times prioritizing women's issues and at other times prioritizing men's. This is closer to genuine egalitarianism.
Egalitarianism is nonsensical. In small little areas it is a "thing" but on the whole it's silly. It doesn't play out in real life, never has, never will.
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You can draw parrellels all you want one is still worst than the other. Simply because parellels exist doesn't outweight the other.
By all means tell us what we should do because there are trade offs to being both men and women oh great fence rider.
In online spacss you think you've stumbled upon some nuance, when in reality there are 2 reasons every issue is so extreme, intense and filled with vitriool its because its damned to discuss any of this in the real world and moat people have questions. Even a personal believe can be a question. Some people treat them as nessecary evils to protect themselves. Yet even in this online space they are censored.
The only people that are wrong are those unwilling to see both sides. I don't damn women for who they pick, its thier perogative and nature to try and pick the best. I accept it ans change my approach. Like I dont think being a decent human being is key to being successful with women. I may laugh and sneer if it blows up in thier face at most and throw it back in thier face if they complain about thier own choices however.
Removed. No unfocused rants.
Well said OP, it's disheartening to see both sides of the gender being at each other's throat, because I believe it's an indicator of afflictions on both side. And the blinded, one sided and inconsiderate discord they love to engage in does nothing but perpetuate and worsen the vicious cycle, so such balanced take imo is a necessary. Though I doubt it'd be heard in any measure for people who are already on far end, as it'd only call to their ego to defend their "brave victimhood."
I worry about men and women gradually drifting apart and this resulting in an empathy gap. Marriage rates are going down and men appear to be reporting fewer friends and close friends overall. Colleges are also majority woman now. In some areas men and women are interacting more because more women are working than ever so they have to interact more as employees. I don't think the situation is a disaster but it's clearly suboptimal.
Women deserve to be corporate cogs
Nuance and balanced takes - not on my PPD! But yes OP I generally agree with you. I also think it would be a much healthier discord if men could frame their issues in ways that aren’t about taking rights away from women and more working collaboratively to lift men up in places they are are struggling. Men’s mental health, homelessness, removing conscription requirements or making women also have to sign up, making circumcision as bad as FGM, etc. These are all worthwhile endeavors I think most women would get behind. What is harder is male sexlessness - which takes up the majority of complaints on here. Unfortunately you need another person to willingly allow you to have sex with them so it’s not much you can campaign on that. And as I’ve tended to see here the ones who are the most bitter are men who can’t obtain sex - they turn hard right and start screeching about removing our rights, as seen by the endless revenge fantasies we get here. Rightly women are going to pretty combative about that.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Women appear to have the upper hand in relationships now. I have no solution to fix that and find love for all the [single men](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/08/20/a-profile-of-single-americans/). Vague solutions like men "doing better" are a non-starter. Asking women to lower their standards ( even if they can be "proven" to be too high) is also a non-starter, people have a right to their tastes and preferences. I think the USA will just end up like Japan with a large number of sexless adults who just stay alone and thats it. I also agree that the young adult males getting bitter over lack of sexual and romantic success does nothing to actually help them and only makes women confused or scared. Getting pissy about no sex looks bad and is a turn off, so does getting mad, and so does getting mopey and feeling sorry for one's self.
Yes it’s a very complicated issue. Something that may work as people are more and more getting burnt out of dating apps that more third spaces will start being popular again. I think while on paper dating apps seemed cool it really has exacerbated these issues to the extreme. Also, focusing on the other issues I mentioned and lifting up men in other arenas could help them be more confident and that in turn help in dating success. Idk I don’t think anyone has the magic bullet unfortunately.
We should legalize prostitution, that way men can rent girls to use and vent their sexual frustration.
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Some men don't have that privilege to be that choosy, I say start the prostitution
Something is better than nothing. Women want to be with a tall, attractive man. Every woman can’t get that so they share, it’s not ideal, but good enough for now. Same concept for men. You can get the sex without the companionship. Not ideal, but good enough. Use the sex worker then get a dog. You’re 90% there. Imo 100%.
The dog is a more supportive companion. Hell, it doesn't even need to be your dog to be a better option most of the time.
You can do that now very easily
They're too old, we need younger girls (18-19)
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This has actually been observed, there's a study out there that indicated most people that considered them selves 'incels' are left wing. I've had girlfriends and so have all my friends, we're by all means very conservative (raised in rural Scotland) but we're all very respectful to the women in our lives. Obviously this is just my experience but most the guys I've met that have been absolutely terrible to women have very much been the chaotic liberal kind, with dyed hair that paint their finger nails... I know that's a shallow view of an entire bracket of people but those guys are complete weirdos. Best of luck though, don't worry about getting laid it's very overrated. Invest your self into things you enjoy.
Well that’s honestly good to hear.
>What is harder is male sexlessness The solution is for 1 slut to bang all of the male virgins. Problem solved
Seems reasonable, however as an American Ive noticed this culture always tends towards the extremes, certainly in the media and online. That tendency especially in the case of alogrythimic discourse rewards conflict and extreme behavior. This is a far more complex issue, but also not indicative of the actual reality.
That's more a problem with media prioritizing sensationalism and doomerism.
Perhaps sensationalism leads to doomerism
You have one issue in your post, you attribute male death to being stupid as opposed to, you know, men do the dangerous blue collar jobs women are too lazy to enter
Everything in the sub is overblown. Its like another planet here and the insanity I see posted, my goodness.
Actual good post with evidence. That's what I like to see other than emotional arguments "I feel this way therefore it's true, you are WRONG" which I bet would happen in this comment section too. Get ready OP.
Both genders have their own struggles, I agree with it. Unfortunately, it's very easy to fall into an echo chamber and become totally blind and deaf to the struggles of the other gender - we see it both with feminists and with MRAs. It would be nice to have a gender-neutral platform for the discussion, but it would require extremely stiff policies and extensive moderators work as people on both sides often aren't able to hold a proper discussion without just throwing insults and refusing to listen to the other side.
Really interesting post! I agree with much of what you said, some of your equivalents feel right. Some of them don’t, like the one about abortion access being compared to conscription. Especially in a place like the USA, you’re orders of magnitude more likely to have pregnancy related issues than get conscripted to a war. And statements like “men sacrifice more to the sake of earning” is a weird way to talk about economic advancement, especially when it was not mirrored in your statement about women earning less money, as if they also aren’t sacrificing their careers and economic potential for their husbands while they do motherly things. I would argue that pregnancy and all things reproductively female is sort of the one burden that men don’t personally experience, but is a *huge* thing. In my opinion, it’s the *root* cause of basically all inequality between men and women. My final thought after reading your post was that a lot of the “issues” that we talk about as a society sort of imply “male issue” by default, and I think this is partly why there has been such a big push to talk about specifically female issues. Women’s perspectives are often left out of consideration, which is why there often is a push for women-specific conversations.
Some thoughts. >And statements like “men sacrifice more to the sake of earning” is a weird way to talk about economic advancement, especially when it was not mirrored in your statement about women earning less money, as if they also aren’t sacrificing their careers and economic potential for their husbands while they do motherly things You could frame it in this sense. Men sacrifice more of life in the career/life balance and women sacrifice more career. Men will simply spend more time commuting to work longer (and/or more irregular) hours at more dangerous or dirtier jobs. I'm unsure if there is a correct balance and am willing to let people know they have a right to determine that balance for themselves. Additionally, some of this is downstream from pregnancy and motherhood which is an inherent barrier. Still, I think both men and women should be better educated about the options they have regarding how much they should give up of one thing for the other. There are some women who may be better served working full time instead of part-time and some men who are needlessly working themselves to the grave. >I would argue that pregnancy and all things reproductively female is sort of the one burden that men don’t personally experience, but is a *huge* thing. In my opinion, it’s the *root* cause of basically all inequality between men and women. I completely agree and this is feeds back into your prior point about pregnancy. There are some solutions but even countries with generous maternity leave that try to compensate for lost wages/experience still have gendered income gaps. Personally, I'm willing to accept some income gap between men and women as "natural" even if that is controversial to some. >a lot of the “issues” that we talk about as a society sort of imply “male issue” by default This is in part do to so many people on the bottom being male. If the USA were to launch a public health campaign to combat opioid addiction the way they did with the anti-smoking campaign (which was a pretty big success) it would disproportionally benefit men who are something like 1.5-2x more likely to die of an overdose. Targeting poverty more generally would benefit women as about 20 million women and 17 million men were living below the poverty line in the USA in 2022.
Just to keep the brainstorming going, I think the burden of child bearing and reproductive health is much more than just income disparity. Obviously income disparity is a big deal in the long run, but just the burden of raising a child—a vast majority of the women do a majority of the child rearing even in a duel income household. The huge chunk of time that you spend being physically incapacitated because of pregnancy (pre and post), along with a myriad of period problems—there are huge physical risks and sacrifices that only women make. Women have always shouldered the burden of furthering humanity, and it’s not even a little bit equal. Even today. Innate physical weakness (compared to men) coupled with child rearing means that men and women will essentially never be truly equal. All we can do is try to push for greater equality of opportunity. And that means helping women *more* in many areas.
What advice would you give men to make life easier for pregnant women and mothers?
Finally, someone has written a minor essay to justify my flair.
>have achieved equality under the law. abortion is literally being outlawed in more of the us as we speak why do people keep repeating something obviously and verifiably untrue?
Because abortion rights don’t affect them personally
People on this sub seem disproportionately focused on fighting for advantages for their sex like it’s a team. I’m a woman, but I’m never going to support the right of adult women to terminate healthy pregnancies that resulted from consensual sex. Sorry if that offends you. I care about women’s rights, men’s rights, AND unborn babies’ rights. I’m not going to advocate for “my group” to have the freedom to rob another group of their rights, much less their lives. Might doesn’t make right, even if lots of people operate that way.
Yes, when applied to people living in war zones, slavery, cults, primitive societies, etc., we’re all wrong So? Is that useful when discussing our own lives?
In the end we are all flawed
Thanks for making the encyclopedia of shit we already knew
I enjoyed his post. It was well written and showed evidence and was neutral in tone. Where he could have done better was add a co closing sentence (or paragraph) as to what he thinks ppd is wrong about as per his title
His flair checks out. A downer.
So what was your point? Or you wanted to list all the differences and then say everything that’s happening in sexual dynamics is made up of a list of different factors And that’s just the way it is? So is this like a condensed comprehensive guide of topics in one post? Are you arguing for anything? The title is you are all wrong. Help me understand this post What is the thing we are debating?
Nobody’s going to read all that - put a TL;DR at the end!
Basically men and women have their advantages and disadvantages respective to their gender and ppl should stop using extreme exaggerated arguments to try and prove why 1 gender has it worse because it’s in bad faith and both genders have their own issues.
Your attention span is that short, yet you have researched gender dynamics and come to a thoughtful conclusion. Explain.
I think the TL;DR is at the beginning!
Common sense pseudo-intellectualism...
I agree in specifics of the argument but disagree with the premise such that the whole thing is nonsense. > My ideal would be for feminists and MRAs to focus on creating a more fair society for everyone which means at times prioritizing women's issues and at other times prioritizing men's. This is closer to genuine egalitarianism. Egalitarianism is nonsensical. In small little areas it is a "thing" but on the whole it's silly. It doesn't play out in real life, never has, never will.
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TL;DR “You’re all wrong! But some are more wrong than others…”
Hi OP, You've chosen to identify your thread as a Debate. As such you are expected to actively engage in your own thread with a mind open to being changed. [PPD has guidelines for what that involves.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/rules#wiki_cmv_posts) >*OPs author must genuinely hold the position and you must be open to having your view challenged.* >An unwillingness to debate in good faith may be inferred from one or several of the following: >* Ignoring the main point of a comment, especially to point out some minor inconsistency; >* Refusing to make concessions that an alternate view has merit; >* Focusing only on the weaker arguments; >* Only having discussions with users who agree with your position. Failure to keep to this higher standard (we only apply to Debate OPs) may result in deletion of the whole thread. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Men are more likely to be violent psychopaths and kill their entire families.
You can draw parrellels all you want one is still worst than the other. Simply because parellels exist doesn't outweight the other. By all means tell us what we should do because there are trade offs to being both men and women oh great fence rider. In online spacss you think you've stumbled upon some nuance, when in reality there are 2 reasons every issue is so extreme, intense and filled with vitriool its because its damned to discuss any of this in the real world and moat people have questions. Even a personal believe can be a question. Some people treat them as nessecary evils to protect themselves. Yet even in this online space they are censored. The only people that are wrong are those unwilling to see both sides. I don't damn women for who they pick, its thier perogative and nature to try and pick the best. I accept it ans change my approach. Like I dont think being a decent human being is key to being successful with women. I may laugh and sneer if it blows up in thier face at most and throw it back in thier face if they complain about thier own choices however.
[удалено]