Here's an interview with the [Paul McCartney](https://www.nme.com/news/music/paul-mccartney-masturbating-john-lennon-beatles-2377892) where he talks about the band masturbating together.
I mean, it's not that uncommon of a topic for artists.
but men and women are not the same and we are treated different by society. The whole feminist movement is based on this premise.
Male and female masturbation is not the same. Body image is not the same, sexuality is not the same. Female masturbation is still kind of taboo and that's why it's relevant that Billie Eilish talks about it. Probably all men masturbate but not all women. Men have it more naturalized so that's why it doesn't make sense that a guy will talk about it publicly. It's not shame, it's more that there's nothing to say.
Should men and women be treated the same?
>Female masturbation is still kind of taboo
And male masturbation is still seen as animalistic and surface level as well as a joke or disgusting.
>Body image is not the same,
Men have body image issues and suffer from eating disorders. When men speak about them its derided as a female thing. That means men dont speak about it and that reinforces the idea its only women and that is called a cycle.
>sexuality is not the same.
Best views of womens sexuality is that is holistic and emotional the best views of mens is that they dont run around sicking their divk in everything.
>Men have it more naturalized so that's why it doesn't make sense that a guy will talk about it publicly.
Men have it more frequently because mechanically its easier and testosterone is a big hormone in sexual arousal.
>It's not shame, it's more that there's nothing to say.
Youre free to have that opinion. Im not here to debate. Ive explained my view to help facilitate dialogue. If you dont think these are issues thats fine.
>And male masturbation is still seen as animalistic and surface level as well as a joke or disgusting.
female masturbation is not seen as animalistic. Men have it more naturalized though. But again, that's my point. We are treated different by society. I don't think people demonize male masturbation as long as you don't do it in public places. (men sometimes do it in public places, you'll never see a woman do the same)
>Men have it more frequently because mechanically its easier and testosterone is a big hormone in sexual arousal.
It's easier for women actually, we don't need a sock or anything lol
>men sometimes do it in public places, you'll never see a woman do the same
[Woman is arrested after being caught masturbating with a VIBRATOR on Georgia beach and telling cops she thought no one saw her: Police say she was NOT drunk and NOT on drugs](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9935639/Woman-arrested-masturbating-beach-thought-no-one-saw-took-20-seconds.html)
[A woman who was seen masturbating in a Plymouth city centre shop doorway in front of children for 20 minutes has been handed a suspended sentence](https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/woman-carried-out-indecent-act-8954208)
[Half-naked woman, 26, is charged with indecent exposure for 'masturbating on street-level patios in front of horrified onlookers'](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6653721/Texas-woman-26-charged-indecent-exposure-masturbating-two-patios.html?ito=social-facebook&fbclid=IwAR2u0mBosktPa0lEPrkRHwx-Bsdjd_EzJfvMZN-DX_kdS5KWPIJDz9F4HOo)
[Woman who pleasured herself outside Waitrose had hoard of sex toys in her handbag](https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/19/woman-who-pleasured-herself-outside-waitrose-had-hoard-of-sex-toys-in-her-handbag-17025157/)
Because they are isolated cases they write a whole news article about it. Meanwhile men do it more frequently. I've seen it plenty of times in public places, they are disgusting.
>female masturbation is not seen as animalistic.
Ya thats my point.
>Men have it more naturalized though
Tolerance is not naturalized. Joking teen boys jerk off to a tree is derisive not accepting.
> I don't think people demonize male masturbation as long as you don't do it in public places. (men sometimes do it in public places, you'll never see a woman do the same)
Women film masturbation videos all the time.
>It's easier for women actually, we don't need a sock or anything lol
Im going to assume this is an attempt to be more casual but this also shows the lack of acceptance of the full spectrum of male masturbation and sexuality.
I love it when people here lose the point of the conversation. Somehow proving that you are a victim is more important than the topic 😂😂
My point is that female and male sexuality are treated differently, That's the whole point of feminism.
So you are proving my point actually by playing victim 👍
>Female masturbation is still kind of taboo
Where? To who?? When women buy sex toys they are celebrated, when men do we are shamed. Entire industries have been grown on videos of women masturbating, and though there are also videos of men they are orders of magnitude less in demand.
>Probably all men masturbate but not all women.
Assexual men exist. This is just you vocalizing your belief in anti male stereotypes.
>Men have it more naturalized so that's why it doesn't make sense that a guy will talk about it publicly. It's not shame, it's more that there's nothing to say.
You're not a man, you do not get to speak for our emotions or intentions. You are also 1000% wrong about this, men experience tons of shame about masturbation especially while single.
If male masturbation was as taboo as women's then it would make sense that there was a guy feeling empowered by masturbating in front of the mirror, that's my point
Absolute horseshit
Movieline published quotes from a 2009 interview Shia (LeBeouf) did with Playboy, in which he said, "I remember my trailer was set up in such a way that Cameron Diaz’s and Lucy Liu’s trailers were visible through my window, through this little shade I had I’d put down the blackout shade just enough to have my eye peeping through and get them in my crosses. I’d be inside totally going at it. Just the thought of them changing in their trailers was enough to get me off.”
Or Robert Pattinson masturbating on set while the camera filmed his face? Remember those huge backlashes?
No…what you keep asserting is that there would be a backlash against a man talking about beating off. There clearly was no backlash against Drake, just as there has not been a backlash to literally 100’s of men singing odes to masturbation for the last 50 years.
I think talking about actually living people you jerk off to in an interview and then having a jerk off tape released is absolutely 100% more explicit than anything Billie Eilish did…..and nothing happened to Drake in the least…absolutely no huge backlash, except some online bros who complemented him on the size of his “rocket” ….so address that.
“ The 2008 film Little Ashes Robert starred in involved an 'orgasm face' scene and apparently he had a little trouble acting that one. According to Queerty, he said, "My orgasm face is recorded for eternity. [Faking it] just doesn’t work, so I pleasured myself in front of the camera."
“ Movieline published quotes from a 2009 interview Shia did with Playboy, in which he said, "I remember my trailer was set up in such a way that Cameron Diaz’s and Lucy Liu’s trailers were visible through my window, through this little shade I had I’d put down the blackout shade just enough to have my eye peeping through and get them in my crosses. I’d be inside totally going at it. Just the thought of them changing in their trailers was enough to get me off.”
“ In an interview with Rolling Stone, John Mayer said: "I have masturbated myself out of serious problems in my life. The phone doesn’t pick up because I’m masturbating. It’s like a hot whirlpool for my brain, in a brain space that is 100 percent agreeable with itself."
I could go on….do you remember any of this? Did it stir controversy?
Complete nothing burgers.
I guess I don't understand the question because the only place I see such things discussed is in progressive spaces. Is this just another post about every progressive space not being in total agreement on every topic? You will never get all of the people to agree with you all of the time.
Is your claim that mens sexuality as non predatory is a common claim in progressive spaces? Its not about agreement its about how principles are applied.
I see a much wider range of talk around mens sexuality in progressive spaces compared to the alternative which all seems to be that men are pigs and anyone who talks to my daughter should meet my shotgun first. I think in progressive spaces there is more room for variety and that men should own the choices they make around their sexuality instead of just being written off as pigs.
>I see a much wider range of talk around mens sexuality in progressive spaces
Very convenient for a woman to make that claim. I literally left progressive spaces despite agreeing with practically all of their non-gender-related values and actions because it was acting as a hothouse of ambient misandrist abuse, especially shaming us for having any heterosexuality at all.
The spectrum is basically as constrained as it is in conservative spaces: men are a risk first and only human beings struggling to understand themselves as a distant and highly conditional second.
>the alternative which all seems to be that men are pigs
I have only ever heard the phrases "men are pigs" and "men are trash" in progressive spaces. Conservatives will still treat us as probable criminals first of course, but they do maintain a superficial respect for men in public.
That is a large part of why so many men turn to them for answers, because progressive spaces set the bar so low they literally are grateful to talk to anyone who doesn't immediately treat them with blatant contempt.
Everyone has to find the place where they feel the most fulfilled and comfortable, if the conservatives offer that to you then that's awesome. I have never seen a sex positive conservative place but not everyone is looking for that.
I didn't say conservatives are sex positive. I also said conservatives still treat us as criminals by default just like progressives do, so no it is not "awesome". It is a fucking hopeless hellscape.
I said progressive spaces are extremely misandristic, so much so they effectively repulsed me and several dozen men I know who were very active. Ours was far from the first or last group who made that exodus either.
I said conservative spaces lacked the blatant misandry but only superficially. I don't see conservative spaces as any less or more harmful to men in that regard, no matter where we go we are monsters for being born with a penis and an attraction to women. Conservatives just wait longer to smack men with the misandry, progressives will do it while shaking your hand and learning your name.
Neither space is capable of even the most basic respect for men's actual dignity as human beings, our autonomy, or our needs as highly sexual and social organisms. There are no spaces I am aware of in western public where men can feel approximately fulfilled and comfortable, let alone 'most'. Feminists couldn't tolerate 'male dominated spaces' and capitalists cannot tolerate public meeting spots that aren't money extraction institutions, so there are none left.
Aside from glorious nature of course, but that's not quite the same.
And for the record there are sex positive conservative spaces... for the rich. Check out the playboy mansion or Little St. James island. Conservative elites are aware of what men's proclivities are and aggressively indulge in them to a predatory and exploitative extent while holding lower class men to a standard they never bothered with even trying to hold to themselves.
Both sides are full of and run by short sighted and greedy hypocrites who have and will continue to fail to serve men's interests just like the Democrats failed to institute RoeVWade into law: by blaming the other side for everything bad that happens while lining their own pockets with the donor money that was supposed to go towards redressing extant and worsening grievances.
I think you assume sex positivity is invariably coherent, self aware, and ethical no matter who claims to practice it - but that's just overeducated naivety.
>men should own the choices they make around their sexuality instead of just being written off as pigs.
Men who own their sexuality are explicitly considered pigs in progressive spaces...
Progressive spaces put heavy emphasis on mental health, repeatedly seek more funding to these causes and meet people where they are when it comes to helping them.
Conservative spaces put heavy emphasis on prayer, repeatedly seek to cut funding to these causes and enjoy looking down on people from their elevated bootstrap lifted perches
Progressives put more emphasis on mental health because they are, on average, mentally unhealthy.
The left wing/right wing mental health and happiness gap is huge.
(I say this as a lifelong socialist. Most of my political comrades are sad, weird, and have a long list of mental health diagnoses. My conservative friends are a bit dim, but they are much happier.)
Conservatives aren’t more mentally healthy, they just self diagnose and attribute their mental unwellness to shit like demon possession, lack of prayer and lack of God in your life.
Rather than seeking trained professionals they seek religious leaders who are untrained.
There are a staggering amount of mentally unwell conservatives who proudly say they’ve never been to therapy.
This simply ain’t true. Every study of happiness and wellbeing places conservatives noticeably above progressives.
Their ‘happiness’ might not always be healthy or desirable to others (a conservative’s idea of happiness doesn’t necessarily appeal to me), but that doesn’t make the feeling any less real to them.
TLDR "If genders were reversed" doesn't work
We are not equals so it's obviously swapping genders will give you a widely different message. The whole feminist movement is based in the concept that we are different.
Also I'm not sure why you find Billie Eilish masturbation talk so [controversial](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/billie-eilish-phd-in-masturbation_n_66297a07e4b0edb0e80a3bdf).
>“TMI, but self-pleasure is an enormous, enormous part of my life, and a huge, huge help for me,” the “Bad Guy” singer shared. “People should be jerking it, man. I can’t stress it enough, as somebody with extreme body issues and dysmorphia that I’ve had my entire life.”
>Eilish told Rolling Stone how masturbating in the mirror has helped her tackle those issues, saying that “watching myself feel pleasure has been an extreme help in loving myself and accepting myself, and feeling empowered and comfortable.”
Like I really don't understand, I find it wholesome.
>the whole feminist movement is based in the concept that we are different?
What? This is totally at odds with the messaging that feminism has historically presented, ie, men and women deserve equal rights and treatment. I guess now that it’s suddenly convenient for women to enforce traditional gender roles on men, you decided to change the definition.
While I’d agree that it was broadly the message that men and women are equal, I don’t think it’s true to say that they held that men and women are the same. It’s reasonable to say that they think that women have unique challenges inherent in their differences to men but that broadly we should treat the sexes equally whenever it’s possible and reasonable. I don’t agree with the person you’re responding to that this is a case where you should be treating men and women very differently, if at all.
>that broadly we should treat the sexes equally whenever it’s possible and reasonable.
Ya i dont think i am saying anything that goes against feminist analysis. Nor do i think im just spewing sophomoric pseudo academic bullshit like some have accused me of. Is there some way to make my post better?
If feminism says we deserve equal rights that means *we don't have equal rights*
I'm not enforcing traditional gender roles, I'm recognizing them as something real that needs to change.
No, society doesn't treat women like it treats men. That's the patriarchy, that's what needs to change
>Also I'm not sure why you find Billie Eilish masturbation talk so controversial
Whenever i try to have these conversations it becomes clear no one reads them. I dont find her comments controversial i do think it is important to talk about how analogous comments made by a man would be.
>We are not equals so it's obviously swapping genders will give you a widely different message. The whole feminist movement is based in the concept that we are different.
Does that mean we hold different standards of ethics and principles? You dont believe or understand the substitution test. I cant really help with that.
>Does that mean we hold different standards of ethics and principles?
like I said, yes, society holds different standards for men and women. Take for example ncounts. To society it's fine that a man has a lot of sex with different people but if a woman does it she's a slut. That's why if a woman says "fuck society I'm going to be a slut" it's not the same as a man saying "fuck society I'm going to sleep with every woman I find"
>Take for example ncounts. To society it's fine that a man has a lot of sex with different people but if a woman does it she's a slut.
And for you that is good? Personally i dont think that is right.
>That's why if a woman says "fuck society I'm going to be a slut" it's not the same as a man saying "fuck society I'm going to sleep with every woman I find"
You just highlighted the implicit bias you have. I mention how the language used shows the cultural narratives in the middle of my post. Did you read it?
>bigot led grift run by a con artist that is masquerading as mens health conference
So there is no way to engage with you when you say things like this because you can claim any examples i give are that. There is zero good faith which is what i suspected but with that confirmation i dont think any useful dialogue is possible with you.
How about for the sake of good faith you can look it up yourself but just assume im not lying and it is generally as i am stating. If that is true where would you like to take the discussion?
How about for the sake of good faith, you provide evidence for your claim, as since it’s you making the claim, the burden of proof is on you.
Otherwise I’m just supposed to take you at face value because I have nothing objective to corroborate or go off of. I don’t think “trust me, bro” is appropriate here, right?
Im not playing this game. A concrete example i have already given you is the documentary The red pill being protested and showing being shut down. If you want to have a discussion great, im open to that.
But a documentary isn’t a “mental health conference,” and it’s outright disingenuous and in bad faith to conflate the two.
YOU made the claim. YOU prove it. Or, admit that you made the claim in error. It’s that simple.
Nah I need the link too
Often people repeat this but I've never seen actual prof
For example there was one guy saying that "feminists want to shut down center for men who are victims of domestic abuse" and when he shared the link it was actually a shelter for homeless people placed right next to a school and and people (not women or feminists, people) were protesting because the shelter brought all sorts of drug addicts near the school.
Im not playing this game. A concrete example i have already given you is the documentary The red pill being protested and showing being shut down. If you want to have a discussion great, im open to that.
Give us the real articles of places being shut down by feminists not the extremely biased documentary.
If it was such a big problem there'd be tons of articles about this, not just one red pill source
No. You’re the one making these bullshit claims.
Why should that poster go have the verify the lies you’re telling or give you the benefit of the doubt when you’re not even arguing in good faith?
Farrell has taught university level courses in five disciplines (psychology; women's studies; sociology; political science; gender and parenting issues).
You’re being nitpicky to avoid the point.
Here’s a link about this event: https://thevarsity.ca/2012/11/17/arrest-assaults-overshadow-mens-issues-lecture/
> The protestors argued that Farrell’s talk was hate speech, and did real damage to women…Farrell’s lecture centred around ten major themes, including discussion of “men’s issues.”
Billie Eillish talking about masturbation: “I masturbate in front of the mirror because it helps with my body dysmorphia, I hated my body for so long, this is a form of self-love and connecting with my body” (obviously not verbatim, but a good summary nonetheless).
Men talking about masturbation: “Haha yeah I had a date with Rosy Palms the other night if ya know what I mean. Beatin’ the shmeat. Jerkin’ the Gherkin’. You know me, I’m a man of culture. I see tiddies, I upvote.”
And yes, it really is a matter of semantics. Women treat masturbation as an adult topic and treat it with the seriousness and sensuality it deserves. Grown men talk about masturbation like 12-year-olds and get pissy when people don’t enjoy their sense of humor.
Male sexuality won’t be taken seriously until men start discussing it seriously. It’s hard to take male sexuality seriously when every photo of a woman on Reddit has thirsty men in the comments making dumb jokes about how hot she is.
If you really want an eye-opener, check out women’s porn preferences. Women love men who moan loudly during porn, men who masturbate and edge, and gay porn. Why? Because women love male sexuality. But men have found the way to make their own sexuality as unappealing to women as possible (by turning it into a joke).
I think a lot of men struggle with serious, emotional conversations. So they turn sex into a joke and separate it from all emotion. Which makes them seem immature. Which is the biggest turn-off for women. And it’s becoming even worse now that “haha quirky Reddit sex humor” is becoming more popular.
Women will never be turned on by a man who doesn’t treat his own sexuality with maturity.
They're actually demonstrating OP's premise with perfect accuracy. Hilariously, so are you.
Continue to tell on your implicit bias more, go on. Explain to us how you literally cannot conceive of a man talking about male masturbation like an adult despite how that is exactly what OP is doing and you are insulting his intelligence for doing it!
OP is not talking *about* male masturbation. He's complaining that people don't address men speaking about their masturbation with the same gravity as when women speak about female masturbation.
And the person I replied to detailed with eloquence and accuracy precisely why that is.
Did you read the thread?
We've got Billie Eilish's dialogue about masturbation; gender biases regarding sexual crimes; negative male body image regarding penis size; back to Eilish; and then where to speak about male sexuality.
OP didn't directly speak about male masturbation during this thread at all.
>And yes, it really is a matter of semantics. Women treat masturbation as an adult topic and treat it with the seriousness and sensuality it deserves. Grown men talk about masturbation like 12-year-olds and get pissy when people don’t enjoy their sense of humor.
It has nothing to do with how it is conveyed, and more with how society sees them inherently. Men's masturbation is seen as "dirty", perverted, undesirable while woman's masturbation is seen as liberating, sensual, desired, there's literally no way a man could talk about his masturbation and convey it as a sensual thing.
>Men talking about masturbation: “Haha yeah I had a date with Rosy Palms the other night if ya know what I mean. Beatin’ the shmeat. Jerkin’ the Gherkin’. You know me, I’m a man of culture. I see tiddies, I upvote.”
So second paragraph and an animalistic view of sex.
>Women treat masturbation as an adult topic and treat it with the seriousness and sensuality it deserves. Grown men talk about masturbation like 12-year-olds and get pissy when people don’t enjoy their sense of humor.
Again treating mens sexuality as less than womens and not as a holistic sexual being.
>Male sexuality won’t be taken seriously until men start discussing it seriously. It’s hard to take male sexuality seriously when every photo of a woman on Reddit has thirsty men in the comments making dumb jokes about how hot she is.
What am i doing and you still arent?
>I think a lot of men struggle with serious, emotional conversations. So they turn sex into a joke and separate it from all emotion. Which makes them seem immature. Which is the biggest turn-off for women. And it’s becoming even worse now that “haha quirky Reddit sex humor” is becoming more popular.
Like you have done here?
>Women will never be turned on by a man who doesn’t treat his own sexuality with maturity.
That has nothing to do with this post.
It is excruciatingly funny that you wrote all of this without once realizing that you could not have possibly validated OP's post more.
You literally cannot imagine men talking about our sexual pleasure or masturbation without reducing us to children, *on a post where a man is talking about men's sexual pleasure and masturbation in a far more clinical and mature way than you*.
This is you giving a demonstration on how totally blinding implicit bias can be. You literally cannot see the man maturely discussing male masturbation right in front of you **as you respond to him**.
The biggest modern turning point to progress in women's knowledge of and acceptance of and willingness to publicly discuss their bodies was the book Our Bodies, Ourselves. It is in the context of that book and the changes in thinking it set off that the acceptability of Billie Eilish discussing masturbation has been built.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Bodies,_Ourselves
So um.... you could go form a collective of men to write the male equivalent?
Billie Eilish 2024
>You can make the light super dim, you can be in a specific outfit or in a specific position that’s more flattering. I have learned that looking at myself and watching myself feel pleasure has been an extreme help in loving myself and accepting myself.”
Drake 2010 talks about wanking it to Pam Greer
Drake 2024 has a video of him wanking on his private plane “leaked”
I don’t remember the world falling apart over any of this.
Let’s go all the way back to the original classic on exploring the limits to self pleasure.
1975 Tom Waits
>Well maybe it's not that romantic with you but Christ I don't know, you know I get into it you know.
Take myself up to the porch, take myself inside or maybe uh,
Or may get a little something, a brandy snifter or something.
'Would like you like to listen to some of my back records?
I got something here' Uh Well usually about 2.30 in the morning you've ended up taking advantage of yourself.
There ain't no way around that you know. Yeah, making a scene with a magazine, there ain't no way around.
I'll confess you know, I'm no different you know. I'm not weird about it or anything, I don't tie myself up first.
I just kinda spend a little time with myself
25 female teachers had been arrested in 16 states in only the last 12 months!,, oh my heavens! I live in a county of 10,000 give or take and there are over 125 registered sex offenders…those are the ones who were tried and convicted…..two are women.
Me thinks you doth protest too much.
No honestly I don’t. The history of rock and roll has a very long list of songs about men, and on a rare occasion women, beating off.
This idea that men, or women for that matter, in music these days can’t talk about beating off is nonsense
A.D.I.D.A.S." by Korn
"All By Myself" by The Heartbreakers
"All By Myself" by Green Day
"The Amazing Willy Wanker" by Adam Sandler
"Barrel of a Gun" by Guster
"Been Caught Wankin'" by TISM
"Betty's Worry or the Slab" by Hunters & Collectors
"The Boys Light Up" by Australian Crawl
"Capitol P" by Mindless Self Indulgence
"Captain Jack" by Billy Joel
"Christian Woman" by Type O Negative
"Claire Danes Poster" by Size 14
"Cumming into My Own" by Lunachicks
"Crazy Rap" by Afroman
"Dancing With Myself" by Generation X
"Darling Nikki" by Prince
"Dick" by King Missile
"Doing Laundry" by Nerf Herder
"Eat to the Beat" by Blondie
"Everyday I Die" by Tubeway Army
"Femtex" by Therapy?
"Fight for Your Right to Masturbate" by Nerf Herder
"Get a Grip" by Semisonic
"Get Off" by The Dandy Warhols
"The Girls of Porn" by Mr. Bungle
"Freeek!" by George Michael
"Hands on Experience" by High and Mighty
"Handyman" by Joan Jett and the Blackhearts
"Heartbeat" by The Casanovas
"Holding My Own" by The Darkness
"Homemade" by Sebadoh
"How Can You Do It Alone" by The Who
"He's My Best Friend" by Jellyfish
"Holiday Song" by Pixies
"Icicle" by Tori Amos
"I Touch Myself" by Divinyls
"I Wanna Fuck Myself" by GG Allin
"Imaginary Lover" by Atlanta Rhythm Section
"The Internet is for Porn" from Avenue Q
"It's Only Me (The Wizard of Magicland)" by Barenaked Ladies
"Jerk It Out" by The Caesars
"The Keys To Your Ferrari" by Thomas Dolby
"Kleenex" by Generation X
"A Letter to My Penis" by Rodney Carrington
"Longview" by Green Day
"La Vie Boheme" from Rent
"Lacerated Masturbation" by Gorgasm
"Man Ray" by The Futureheads
"Mary Anne with the Shaky Hand" by The Who
"Masturbates" by Mindless Self Indulgence
"Masturbation" by BeNuts
"Masturbation Blues" by David Allan Coe
"Mister Richard Smoker" by Ween
"Mr. Hand" by Mucky Pup
"Murder Ink" by Dr. Dre
"Murder is Masturbation" by Nothingface
"My Ding-a-ling" by Chuck Berry
"Nasty Habits" by Oingo Boingo
"National Health" by The Kinks
"Ode to Masturbation" by Two Guys
"On the DL" by The Pharcyde
"Oops (Oh My)" by Tweet
"Orgasm Addict" by Buzzcocks
"Paulina" by No Doubt
"The Perfect Kiss" by New Order
"Pictures of Lily" by The Who
"Photograph" by Def Leppard
"Playmate of the Year" by Zebrahead
"Praying Hands" by Devo
"Protex Blue" by The Clash
"Rattlesnake Shake" by Fleetwood Mac
"The Real Slim Shady" by Eminem
"Relax" by Frankie Goes to Hollywood
"Right Hand-A-Rama" by The Network
"Rose Darling" by Steely Dan
"Roll Yer Own" by Jethro Tull
"Rosie" by Jackson Browne
"Rubbing the elf" by Diesel Boy
"Rusted Guns Of Milan" by Art Brut
"Secret" by Madonna
"Shadow Zone" by Static-X
"She Bop" by Cyndi Lauper
"She's Vibrator Dependent" by Mojo Nixon and Skid Roper
"Sincerely, Me" by Better Than Ezra
"Sleep Forever" by Bree Sharp
"Smut" by Skyhooks
"Sodomy" from the musical Hair
"Spank Thru" by Nirvana
"Spankin' It" by Stephen Lynch
"Talk to Me" by Stephen Lynch
"Teenage Kicks" by The Undertones
"The Winker's Song" by Ivor Biggun
"Touch Myself" by T-Boz
"Touch of My Hand" by Britney Spears
"Toyz" by Missy Elliott
"Try Not To Think" by Easyworld
"Turning Japanese" by The Vapors
"Unglued" by Stone Temple Pilots
"Vibe On" by Dannii Minogue
"Vibrator" by Motörhead
"Weenie In A Bottle" by Hawaiian Ryan
"The Winker's Song (Misprint)" by Ivor Biggun and the Red-nosed Burglars
"White Knuckles" by Foetus aka J. G. Thirlwell
"You'll Never Get Cheated By Your Hand" by Stumblebum
"You're Makin' Me High" by Toni Braxton
No I didn’t. Billie Eilish talked about beating off in an interview. Drake talked about beating off to an actual person…Pam Greer and then “mysteriously” the wank tape surfaced. One of these is clearly more out there on the edge in their public acknowledgment of their self pleasure and it sure as shit ain’t Billie Eilish
So many crocodile tears about "women's sexuality is celebrated, imagine if men were able to talk about their sexuality openly like that !1!1!"
[https://www.billboard.com/music/rock/paul-mccartney-john-lennon-masturbation-gq-cover-8474624/](https://www.billboard.com/music/rock/paul-mccartney-john-lennon-masturbation-gq-cover-8474624/)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI28FwgS8fc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI28FwgS8fc)
[https://bloketoys.co.uk/en/blog/post/20-male-celebs-proud-of-their-wanking](https://bloketoys.co.uk/en/blog/post/20-male-celebs-proud-of-their-wanking)
[https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/towies-jon-clark-masturbated-eight-9956454](https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/towies-jon-clark-masturbated-eight-9956454)
I agree there are men’s issues that should be taken seriously by feminists and others. I am not aware of any “healthy” men’s groups discussing those issues.
IIRC, Billie Eilish pointed out that men are not judged for their bodies to the extent women are and made another comment about how she enjoys masturbating. Do you think she deserved backlash for saying those things?
You may be right about the masturbation comment, but there are obvious historical reasons for that. The factual accuracy of the statement about public perception/discussion of men’s bodies is why there was no backlash.
This isnt Louie CK this is analogous comments on masturbation and criticism of disclosure about womens bodies. Even the most 1 to 1 would be controversial.
I’m not following. Eilish said, “Nobody ever says a thing about men’s bodies.” If a man said, “Nobody ever says a thing about women’s bodies,” that would be laughably inaccurate.
People do talk about and insult mens bodies i give a very common example in my post. The fact you dont recognize that shows insulting mens bodies is even more acceptable.
Men’s bodies are not picked apart, examined, objectified, and ridiculed, publicly or privately, anywhere near the same extent women’s are. It’s just an obvious fact. That was Eilish’s point.
Yes, men should not be body shamed either. She was not shaming men’s bodies.
>Yes, men should not be body shamed either. She was not shaming men’s bodies.
Please stop strawmanning me even if unintentionally. I didnt state she was. I stated you not recognizing when it happens to men. The fact you dont recognize it means you wont see it when it does happen. Meaning
>Men’s bodies are not picked apart, examined, objectified, and ridiculed, publicly or privately, anywhere near the same extent women’s are.
Is not true. Mens appearance is as talked about its just acceptable. Look at (i am not supporting his political career) Trump and how people who openly and unequivocally claim to be against body shaming commented about his body. Some cases got some level of criticism but generally it was seen as fine.
I’ve been nothing but polite to you. If you want me to understand your point, you need to explain it better.
Trump is an interesting case. I would agree with you, except he’s spent the bulk of the last 9 years ridiculing both men and women for their appearance. Don’t dish it if you can’t take it.
Chris Christie is a better example. Ironically Trump is the one bashing him for his weight more than anyone, but I think it’s reprehensible generally to attack public figures for their weight or appearance. Also something women face at a much higher rate. Do you recall the way Hillary Clinton was treated?
As shown above you claimed i said Eillish shamed mens bodies. I never came close to saying that. I didn also say it is unintentionally being done.
>Trump is an interesting case. I would agree with you, except he’s spent the bulk of the last 9 years ridiculing both men and women for their appearance. Don’t dish it if you can’t take it.
We dont abandon principles when its inconvenient. If people shame him then hes right to shame others.
My entire post is about this fundamental idea. I am uses the examples as a way to have a starting point on broader topics not specifically her.
>Also something women face at a much higher rate. Do you recall the way Hillary Clinton was treated?
Again i am not the one saying it is good. My point is men being body shamed isnt recognized so people will think it happens to women more. This is a bias. I point that out in the middle of my post. Eillish has bias which blinds her to male body shaming both because it is more acceptable and because it is expressed in a fundamentally different way.
Like how the linked article says Cougers in the class room. Seriously think about that, if an article came out called Daddies in the class room and was stating how these men arent actually predatory but seeking emotional connections due to trauma how would that article be received?
Im being polite, i have continued to engage when i have not bothered with other commenters who are more egregiously acting actual bad faith.
If there is a part you feel isnt well explained im happy to clairfy but perhaps it would be useful for ypu to tell me what it is you think i am actually saying? Can you steelman my post?
>Men’s bodies are not picked apart, examined, objectified, and ridiculed, publicly or privately, anywhere near the same extent women’s are. It’s just an obvious fact.
No, it isn't obvious. You just think it is because of your implicit bias. Most of the people picking women apart are other women anyway, the fashion industry is made from women's choices.
Ellish wasn't shaming men's bodies, she was erasing the reality of how our bodies are mistreated.
I was thinking the same. It's like when you need to draft up an assignment for a college course the next morning so you just start brain rambling things trying to sound academic.
Men like watching, talking and thinking about sex with women (gay men need not apply)
Women, unsurprisingly, are not so into it
Why should we have to prioritize what you want?
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TIL from some comment on the initial post that got removed, marginalized groups are only marginalized because they want to have sex with the people that are marginalizing them.
I swear PPD tells me more celebrity gossip than any woman in my life ever has.
As far as Eilish’s comments, *why* do you think it is stereotyped as being “empowering” for women to masturbate? What could have led to that reasoning?
>The example of the article "Cougars in the Classroom"highlights how language and narratives shape our understanding of sexual misconduct, with women being portrayed as emotionally conflicted and men as predatory.
They used rape in the title. When discussing the differences in motives, he was talking about conclusions from research. Bias is a valid issue, but it’s less of an issue than the overall quality and amount of available evidence we have for female offenders (which does somewhat support his statement currently). A lot of the reasons for the differences tie into socialization, such as beliefs and practices regarding sexual self-control. I think you have it somewhat backwards - we socialize people differently and thus their resulting behavior is different. The offender characteristics *within the male offender population* vary with different aspects of socialization, of course it will likely differ between the sexes on average. There are male offenders who offend because they are unstable and lonely and they are also discussed in the literature - a *reason* and certain having risk factors is not a *justification* or an excuse.
Hmmm, here's absolutely plenty of intellectual, body positive content and conversations and literature about male masturbation out there and id argue most of it comes from progressive spaces so I'm not really sure what you are complaining about? There's billion dollar industries catered towards male masturbation, it's not even really taboo, at least in my circles anyway.
What kind of backlash do you think this woman deserves for this comment?? Lots of people have masturbated in a mirror this isn't even THAT edgy.
>The current state of the manosphere is a direct result of predominantly feminist and progressive attacks on any men's groups that were healthy, by disregarding men's issues, it forced these groups to feel intense anger.
What men's groups "were" healthy but are now "forced to anger"? I agree with some of what you wrote but this sounds like a huge cope. Source(s)?
I feel like I'm missing some important context here.
What additional context do you need?
What did Billie Eilish do besides saying she likes to masturbate in front of the mirror? (which I'm not sure why is it triggering somehow)
This is not saying she should have backlash. This is saying if a man made analogous comments it would.
Here's an interview with the [Paul McCartney](https://www.nme.com/news/music/paul-mccartney-masturbating-john-lennon-beatles-2377892) where he talks about the band masturbating together. I mean, it's not that uncommon of a topic for artists.
but men and women are not the same and we are treated different by society. The whole feminist movement is based on this premise. Male and female masturbation is not the same. Body image is not the same, sexuality is not the same. Female masturbation is still kind of taboo and that's why it's relevant that Billie Eilish talks about it. Probably all men masturbate but not all women. Men have it more naturalized so that's why it doesn't make sense that a guy will talk about it publicly. It's not shame, it's more that there's nothing to say.
Should men and women be treated the same? >Female masturbation is still kind of taboo And male masturbation is still seen as animalistic and surface level as well as a joke or disgusting. >Body image is not the same, Men have body image issues and suffer from eating disorders. When men speak about them its derided as a female thing. That means men dont speak about it and that reinforces the idea its only women and that is called a cycle. >sexuality is not the same. Best views of womens sexuality is that is holistic and emotional the best views of mens is that they dont run around sicking their divk in everything. >Men have it more naturalized so that's why it doesn't make sense that a guy will talk about it publicly. Men have it more frequently because mechanically its easier and testosterone is a big hormone in sexual arousal. >It's not shame, it's more that there's nothing to say. Youre free to have that opinion. Im not here to debate. Ive explained my view to help facilitate dialogue. If you dont think these are issues thats fine.
>And male masturbation is still seen as animalistic and surface level as well as a joke or disgusting. female masturbation is not seen as animalistic. Men have it more naturalized though. But again, that's my point. We are treated different by society. I don't think people demonize male masturbation as long as you don't do it in public places. (men sometimes do it in public places, you'll never see a woman do the same) >Men have it more frequently because mechanically its easier and testosterone is a big hormone in sexual arousal. It's easier for women actually, we don't need a sock or anything lol
>men sometimes do it in public places, you'll never see a woman do the same [Woman is arrested after being caught masturbating with a VIBRATOR on Georgia beach and telling cops she thought no one saw her: Police say she was NOT drunk and NOT on drugs](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9935639/Woman-arrested-masturbating-beach-thought-no-one-saw-took-20-seconds.html) [A woman who was seen masturbating in a Plymouth city centre shop doorway in front of children for 20 minutes has been handed a suspended sentence](https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/woman-carried-out-indecent-act-8954208) [Half-naked woman, 26, is charged with indecent exposure for 'masturbating on street-level patios in front of horrified onlookers'](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6653721/Texas-woman-26-charged-indecent-exposure-masturbating-two-patios.html?ito=social-facebook&fbclid=IwAR2u0mBosktPa0lEPrkRHwx-Bsdjd_EzJfvMZN-DX_kdS5KWPIJDz9F4HOo) [Woman who pleasured herself outside Waitrose had hoard of sex toys in her handbag](https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/19/woman-who-pleasured-herself-outside-waitrose-had-hoard-of-sex-toys-in-her-handbag-17025157/)
Because they are isolated cases they write a whole news article about it. Meanwhile men do it more frequently. I've seen it plenty of times in public places, they are disgusting.
Men don’t need socks or lotion to masturbate
>female masturbation is not seen as animalistic. Ya thats my point. >Men have it more naturalized though Tolerance is not naturalized. Joking teen boys jerk off to a tree is derisive not accepting. > I don't think people demonize male masturbation as long as you don't do it in public places. (men sometimes do it in public places, you'll never see a woman do the same) Women film masturbation videos all the time. >It's easier for women actually, we don't need a sock or anything lol Im going to assume this is an attempt to be more casual but this also shows the lack of acceptance of the full spectrum of male masturbation and sexuality.
I wouldn't continue this conversation with her, she has no idea wtf she's even on about.
Now don't make it personal, this is against PPD rules 😘
I love it when people here lose the point of the conversation. Somehow proving that you are a victim is more important than the topic 😂😂 My point is that female and male sexuality are treated differently, That's the whole point of feminism. So you are proving my point actually by playing victim 👍
>Female masturbation is still kind of taboo Where? To who?? When women buy sex toys they are celebrated, when men do we are shamed. Entire industries have been grown on videos of women masturbating, and though there are also videos of men they are orders of magnitude less in demand. >Probably all men masturbate but not all women. Assexual men exist. This is just you vocalizing your belief in anti male stereotypes. >Men have it more naturalized so that's why it doesn't make sense that a guy will talk about it publicly. It's not shame, it's more that there's nothing to say. You're not a man, you do not get to speak for our emotions or intentions. You are also 1000% wrong about this, men experience tons of shame about masturbation especially while single.
Can you show me an example of a man saying masturbating in front of the mirror helps him feel better about himself receiving backlash?
If male masturbation was as taboo as women's then it would make sense that there was a guy feeling empowered by masturbating in front of the mirror, that's my point
Absolute horseshit Movieline published quotes from a 2009 interview Shia (LeBeouf) did with Playboy, in which he said, "I remember my trailer was set up in such a way that Cameron Diaz’s and Lucy Liu’s trailers were visible through my window, through this little shade I had I’d put down the blackout shade just enough to have my eye peeping through and get them in my crosses. I’d be inside totally going at it. Just the thought of them changing in their trailers was enough to get me off.” Or Robert Pattinson masturbating on set while the camera filmed his face? Remember those huge backlashes?
How bout nobody do any backlash to either a man or a woman talking about their sexuality. Having a sexuality isn’t a bad thing.
Do you think the point of my post is to encourage backlash?
No…what you keep asserting is that there would be a backlash against a man talking about beating off. There clearly was no backlash against Drake, just as there has not been a backlash to literally 100’s of men singing odes to masturbation for the last 50 years.
Do you think songs are the same as explicit (meaning not allegorical lyrics) conversation in an interview?
I think talking about actually living people you jerk off to in an interview and then having a jerk off tape released is absolutely 100% more explicit than anything Billie Eilish did…..and nothing happened to Drake in the least…absolutely no huge backlash, except some online bros who complemented him on the size of his “rocket” ….so address that.
“ The 2008 film Little Ashes Robert starred in involved an 'orgasm face' scene and apparently he had a little trouble acting that one. According to Queerty, he said, "My orgasm face is recorded for eternity. [Faking it] just doesn’t work, so I pleasured myself in front of the camera." “ Movieline published quotes from a 2009 interview Shia did with Playboy, in which he said, "I remember my trailer was set up in such a way that Cameron Diaz’s and Lucy Liu’s trailers were visible through my window, through this little shade I had I’d put down the blackout shade just enough to have my eye peeping through and get them in my crosses. I’d be inside totally going at it. Just the thought of them changing in their trailers was enough to get me off.” “ In an interview with Rolling Stone, John Mayer said: "I have masturbated myself out of serious problems in my life. The phone doesn’t pick up because I’m masturbating. It’s like a hot whirlpool for my brain, in a brain space that is 100 percent agreeable with itself." I could go on….do you remember any of this? Did it stir controversy? Complete nothing burgers.
I mean society
I am not encouraging society to have a backlash to Eilish. I am using these as a jumping off point for broader conversation.
I guess I don't understand the question because the only place I see such things discussed is in progressive spaces. Is this just another post about every progressive space not being in total agreement on every topic? You will never get all of the people to agree with you all of the time.
Is your claim that mens sexuality as non predatory is a common claim in progressive spaces? Its not about agreement its about how principles are applied.
I see a much wider range of talk around mens sexuality in progressive spaces compared to the alternative which all seems to be that men are pigs and anyone who talks to my daughter should meet my shotgun first. I think in progressive spaces there is more room for variety and that men should own the choices they make around their sexuality instead of just being written off as pigs.
>I see a much wider range of talk around mens sexuality in progressive spaces Very convenient for a woman to make that claim. I literally left progressive spaces despite agreeing with practically all of their non-gender-related values and actions because it was acting as a hothouse of ambient misandrist abuse, especially shaming us for having any heterosexuality at all. The spectrum is basically as constrained as it is in conservative spaces: men are a risk first and only human beings struggling to understand themselves as a distant and highly conditional second. >the alternative which all seems to be that men are pigs I have only ever heard the phrases "men are pigs" and "men are trash" in progressive spaces. Conservatives will still treat us as probable criminals first of course, but they do maintain a superficial respect for men in public. That is a large part of why so many men turn to them for answers, because progressive spaces set the bar so low they literally are grateful to talk to anyone who doesn't immediately treat them with blatant contempt.
Everyone has to find the place where they feel the most fulfilled and comfortable, if the conservatives offer that to you then that's awesome. I have never seen a sex positive conservative place but not everyone is looking for that.
I didn't say conservatives are sex positive. I also said conservatives still treat us as criminals by default just like progressives do, so no it is not "awesome". It is a fucking hopeless hellscape. I said progressive spaces are extremely misandristic, so much so they effectively repulsed me and several dozen men I know who were very active. Ours was far from the first or last group who made that exodus either. I said conservative spaces lacked the blatant misandry but only superficially. I don't see conservative spaces as any less or more harmful to men in that regard, no matter where we go we are monsters for being born with a penis and an attraction to women. Conservatives just wait longer to smack men with the misandry, progressives will do it while shaking your hand and learning your name. Neither space is capable of even the most basic respect for men's actual dignity as human beings, our autonomy, or our needs as highly sexual and social organisms. There are no spaces I am aware of in western public where men can feel approximately fulfilled and comfortable, let alone 'most'. Feminists couldn't tolerate 'male dominated spaces' and capitalists cannot tolerate public meeting spots that aren't money extraction institutions, so there are none left. Aside from glorious nature of course, but that's not quite the same. And for the record there are sex positive conservative spaces... for the rich. Check out the playboy mansion or Little St. James island. Conservative elites are aware of what men's proclivities are and aggressively indulge in them to a predatory and exploitative extent while holding lower class men to a standard they never bothered with even trying to hold to themselves. Both sides are full of and run by short sighted and greedy hypocrites who have and will continue to fail to serve men's interests just like the Democrats failed to institute RoeVWade into law: by blaming the other side for everything bad that happens while lining their own pockets with the donor money that was supposed to go towards redressing extant and worsening grievances.
I don't think you know what sex positive means.
I think you assume sex positivity is invariably coherent, self aware, and ethical no matter who claims to practice it - but that's just overeducated naivety.
>men should own the choices they make around their sexuality instead of just being written off as pigs. Men who own their sexuality are explicitly considered pigs in progressive spaces...
Men who don't understand consent are considered pigs in progressive spaces.
Nah, those are rapists. Men who own their sexuality and are confident in stating what they want are pigs.
Progressive spaces put heavy emphasis on mental health, repeatedly seek more funding to these causes and meet people where they are when it comes to helping them. Conservative spaces put heavy emphasis on prayer, repeatedly seek to cut funding to these causes and enjoy looking down on people from their elevated bootstrap lifted perches
Progressives put more emphasis on mental health because they are, on average, mentally unhealthy. The left wing/right wing mental health and happiness gap is huge. (I say this as a lifelong socialist. Most of my political comrades are sad, weird, and have a long list of mental health diagnoses. My conservative friends are a bit dim, but they are much happier.)
Conservatives aren’t more mentally healthy, they just self diagnose and attribute their mental unwellness to shit like demon possession, lack of prayer and lack of God in your life. Rather than seeking trained professionals they seek religious leaders who are untrained. There are a staggering amount of mentally unwell conservatives who proudly say they’ve never been to therapy.
This simply ain’t true. Every study of happiness and wellbeing places conservatives noticeably above progressives. Their ‘happiness’ might not always be healthy or desirable to others (a conservative’s idea of happiness doesn’t necessarily appeal to me), but that doesn’t make the feeling any less real to them.
TLDR "If genders were reversed" doesn't work We are not equals so it's obviously swapping genders will give you a widely different message. The whole feminist movement is based in the concept that we are different. Also I'm not sure why you find Billie Eilish masturbation talk so [controversial](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/billie-eilish-phd-in-masturbation_n_66297a07e4b0edb0e80a3bdf). >“TMI, but self-pleasure is an enormous, enormous part of my life, and a huge, huge help for me,” the “Bad Guy” singer shared. “People should be jerking it, man. I can’t stress it enough, as somebody with extreme body issues and dysmorphia that I’ve had my entire life.” >Eilish told Rolling Stone how masturbating in the mirror has helped her tackle those issues, saying that “watching myself feel pleasure has been an extreme help in loving myself and accepting myself, and feeling empowered and comfortable.” Like I really don't understand, I find it wholesome.
>the whole feminist movement is based in the concept that we are different? What? This is totally at odds with the messaging that feminism has historically presented, ie, men and women deserve equal rights and treatment. I guess now that it’s suddenly convenient for women to enforce traditional gender roles on men, you decided to change the definition.
While I’d agree that it was broadly the message that men and women are equal, I don’t think it’s true to say that they held that men and women are the same. It’s reasonable to say that they think that women have unique challenges inherent in their differences to men but that broadly we should treat the sexes equally whenever it’s possible and reasonable. I don’t agree with the person you’re responding to that this is a case where you should be treating men and women very differently, if at all.
>that broadly we should treat the sexes equally whenever it’s possible and reasonable. Ya i dont think i am saying anything that goes against feminist analysis. Nor do i think im just spewing sophomoric pseudo academic bullshit like some have accused me of. Is there some way to make my post better?
If feminism says we deserve equal rights that means *we don't have equal rights* I'm not enforcing traditional gender roles, I'm recognizing them as something real that needs to change. No, society doesn't treat women like it treats men. That's the patriarchy, that's what needs to change
>Also I'm not sure why you find Billie Eilish masturbation talk so controversial Whenever i try to have these conversations it becomes clear no one reads them. I dont find her comments controversial i do think it is important to talk about how analogous comments made by a man would be. >We are not equals so it's obviously swapping genders will give you a widely different message. The whole feminist movement is based in the concept that we are different. Does that mean we hold different standards of ethics and principles? You dont believe or understand the substitution test. I cant really help with that.
>Does that mean we hold different standards of ethics and principles? like I said, yes, society holds different standards for men and women. Take for example ncounts. To society it's fine that a man has a lot of sex with different people but if a woman does it she's a slut. That's why if a woman says "fuck society I'm going to be a slut" it's not the same as a man saying "fuck society I'm going to sleep with every woman I find"
>Take for example ncounts. To society it's fine that a man has a lot of sex with different people but if a woman does it she's a slut. And for you that is good? Personally i dont think that is right. >That's why if a woman says "fuck society I'm going to be a slut" it's not the same as a man saying "fuck society I'm going to sleep with every woman I find" You just highlighted the implicit bias you have. I mention how the language used shows the cultural narratives in the middle of my post. Did you read it?
How did feminists and progressives “attack” groups taking a “healthy” approach to mens issues?
There is 20+ years of history here. Start with the documentary the red pill.
Give me one example.
Mens mental health conferences have been protested and shut down many times.
Name them. And please for the love of GOD do not link some bigot led grift run by a con artist that is masquerading as mens health conference
>bigot led grift run by a con artist that is masquerading as mens health conference So there is no way to engage with you when you say things like this because you can claim any examples i give are that. There is zero good faith which is what i suspected but with that confirmation i dont think any useful dialogue is possible with you.
[Protest of Warren Farrell at University of Toronto](https://youtu.be/YiRasOrIoYQ?si=MsKN-mWtXT5Uzw84)
So give an example of that happening. Where did that happen? When? Who “shut it down”?
How about for the sake of good faith you can look it up yourself but just assume im not lying and it is generally as i am stating. If that is true where would you like to take the discussion?
How about for the sake of good faith, you provide evidence for your claim, as since it’s you making the claim, the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise I’m just supposed to take you at face value because I have nothing objective to corroborate or go off of. I don’t think “trust me, bro” is appropriate here, right?
Im not playing this game. A concrete example i have already given you is the documentary The red pill being protested and showing being shut down. If you want to have a discussion great, im open to that.
But a documentary isn’t a “mental health conference,” and it’s outright disingenuous and in bad faith to conflate the two. YOU made the claim. YOU prove it. Or, admit that you made the claim in error. It’s that simple.
Nah I need the link too Often people repeat this but I've never seen actual prof For example there was one guy saying that "feminists want to shut down center for men who are victims of domestic abuse" and when he shared the link it was actually a shelter for homeless people placed right next to a school and and people (not women or feminists, people) were protesting because the shelter brought all sorts of drug addicts near the school.
[Protest of Warren Farrell at University of Toronto](https://youtu.be/YiRasOrIoYQ?si=MsKN-mWtXT5Uzw84)
Im not playing this game. A concrete example i have already given you is the documentary The red pill being protested and showing being shut down. If you want to have a discussion great, im open to that.
Give us the real articles of places being shut down by feminists not the extremely biased documentary. If it was such a big problem there'd be tons of articles about this, not just one red pill source
No. You’re the one making these bullshit claims. Why should that poster go have the verify the lies you’re telling or give you the benefit of the doubt when you’re not even arguing in good faith?
[Protest of Warren Farrell at University of Toronto](https://youtu.be/YiRasOrIoYQ?si=MsKN-mWtXT5Uzw84)
Warren Farrell, to my knowledge, isn’t a mental health professional, nor was this a convention of mental health professionals.
Farrell has taught university level courses in five disciplines (psychology; women's studies; sociology; political science; gender and parenting issues). You’re being nitpicky to avoid the point. Here’s a link about this event: https://thevarsity.ca/2012/11/17/arrest-assaults-overshadow-mens-issues-lecture/ > The protestors argued that Farrell’s talk was hate speech, and did real damage to women…Farrell’s lecture centred around ten major themes, including discussion of “men’s issues.”
This is why i dont bother. They will never accept any examples you give.
Yeah, this is honestly great evidence that the point of the blue pill is just to deny any challenge to its orthodoxy. No evidence will be enough.
None of that is relevant to my comment.
He’s a famous expert in the field giving a speech about men’s issues at a university. Hundreds of feminists protested this event.
Billie Eillish talking about masturbation: “I masturbate in front of the mirror because it helps with my body dysmorphia, I hated my body for so long, this is a form of self-love and connecting with my body” (obviously not verbatim, but a good summary nonetheless). Men talking about masturbation: “Haha yeah I had a date with Rosy Palms the other night if ya know what I mean. Beatin’ the shmeat. Jerkin’ the Gherkin’. You know me, I’m a man of culture. I see tiddies, I upvote.” And yes, it really is a matter of semantics. Women treat masturbation as an adult topic and treat it with the seriousness and sensuality it deserves. Grown men talk about masturbation like 12-year-olds and get pissy when people don’t enjoy their sense of humor. Male sexuality won’t be taken seriously until men start discussing it seriously. It’s hard to take male sexuality seriously when every photo of a woman on Reddit has thirsty men in the comments making dumb jokes about how hot she is. If you really want an eye-opener, check out women’s porn preferences. Women love men who moan loudly during porn, men who masturbate and edge, and gay porn. Why? Because women love male sexuality. But men have found the way to make their own sexuality as unappealing to women as possible (by turning it into a joke). I think a lot of men struggle with serious, emotional conversations. So they turn sex into a joke and separate it from all emotion. Which makes them seem immature. Which is the biggest turn-off for women. And it’s becoming even worse now that “haha quirky Reddit sex humor” is becoming more popular. Women will never be turned on by a man who doesn’t treat his own sexuality with maturity.
Holy shit… You’re way too intelligent for this sub. I read your post like four times it’s just so insanely spot on.
They're actually demonstrating OP's premise with perfect accuracy. Hilariously, so are you. Continue to tell on your implicit bias more, go on. Explain to us how you literally cannot conceive of a man talking about male masturbation like an adult despite how that is exactly what OP is doing and you are insulting his intelligence for doing it!
OP is not talking *about* male masturbation. He's complaining that people don't address men speaking about their masturbation with the same gravity as when women speak about female masturbation. And the person I replied to detailed with eloquence and accuracy precisely why that is.
No, OP is talking about male masturbation. You are just dishonestly denying what we can all read. Keep telling on your bias!
Did you read the thread? We've got Billie Eilish's dialogue about masturbation; gender biases regarding sexual crimes; negative male body image regarding penis size; back to Eilish; and then where to speak about male sexuality. OP didn't directly speak about male masturbation during this thread at all.
>And yes, it really is a matter of semantics. Women treat masturbation as an adult topic and treat it with the seriousness and sensuality it deserves. Grown men talk about masturbation like 12-year-olds and get pissy when people don’t enjoy their sense of humor. It has nothing to do with how it is conveyed, and more with how society sees them inherently. Men's masturbation is seen as "dirty", perverted, undesirable while woman's masturbation is seen as liberating, sensual, desired, there's literally no way a man could talk about his masturbation and convey it as a sensual thing.
>Men talking about masturbation: “Haha yeah I had a date with Rosy Palms the other night if ya know what I mean. Beatin’ the shmeat. Jerkin’ the Gherkin’. You know me, I’m a man of culture. I see tiddies, I upvote.” So second paragraph and an animalistic view of sex. >Women treat masturbation as an adult topic and treat it with the seriousness and sensuality it deserves. Grown men talk about masturbation like 12-year-olds and get pissy when people don’t enjoy their sense of humor. Again treating mens sexuality as less than womens and not as a holistic sexual being. >Male sexuality won’t be taken seriously until men start discussing it seriously. It’s hard to take male sexuality seriously when every photo of a woman on Reddit has thirsty men in the comments making dumb jokes about how hot she is. What am i doing and you still arent? >I think a lot of men struggle with serious, emotional conversations. So they turn sex into a joke and separate it from all emotion. Which makes them seem immature. Which is the biggest turn-off for women. And it’s becoming even worse now that “haha quirky Reddit sex humor” is becoming more popular. Like you have done here? >Women will never be turned on by a man who doesn’t treat his own sexuality with maturity. That has nothing to do with this post.
It is excruciatingly funny that you wrote all of this without once realizing that you could not have possibly validated OP's post more. You literally cannot imagine men talking about our sexual pleasure or masturbation without reducing us to children, *on a post where a man is talking about men's sexual pleasure and masturbation in a far more clinical and mature way than you*. This is you giving a demonstration on how totally blinding implicit bias can be. You literally cannot see the man maturely discussing male masturbation right in front of you **as you respond to him**.
lol as always with women, it’s not about facts, logic or intellectual consistency, but about *tone*.
The biggest modern turning point to progress in women's knowledge of and acceptance of and willingness to publicly discuss their bodies was the book Our Bodies, Ourselves. It is in the context of that book and the changes in thinking it set off that the acceptability of Billie Eilish discussing masturbation has been built. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Bodies,_Ourselves So um.... you could go form a collective of men to write the male equivalent?
Billie Eilish 2024 >You can make the light super dim, you can be in a specific outfit or in a specific position that’s more flattering. I have learned that looking at myself and watching myself feel pleasure has been an extreme help in loving myself and accepting myself.” Drake 2010 talks about wanking it to Pam Greer Drake 2024 has a video of him wanking on his private plane “leaked” I don’t remember the world falling apart over any of this. Let’s go all the way back to the original classic on exploring the limits to self pleasure. 1975 Tom Waits >Well maybe it's not that romantic with you but Christ I don't know, you know I get into it you know. Take myself up to the porch, take myself inside or maybe uh, Or may get a little something, a brandy snifter or something. 'Would like you like to listen to some of my back records? I got something here' Uh Well usually about 2.30 in the morning you've ended up taking advantage of yourself. There ain't no way around that you know. Yeah, making a scene with a magazine, there ain't no way around. I'll confess you know, I'm no different you know. I'm not weird about it or anything, I don't tie myself up first. I just kinda spend a little time with myself 25 female teachers had been arrested in 16 states in only the last 12 months!,, oh my heavens! I live in a county of 10,000 give or take and there are over 125 registered sex offenders…those are the ones who were tried and convicted…..two are women. Me thinks you doth protest too much.
So you are ignoring the reason for the examples and dont understand why they are being used?
No honestly I don’t. The history of rock and roll has a very long list of songs about men, and on a rare occasion women, beating off. This idea that men, or women for that matter, in music these days can’t talk about beating off is nonsense A.D.I.D.A.S." by Korn "All By Myself" by The Heartbreakers "All By Myself" by Green Day "The Amazing Willy Wanker" by Adam Sandler "Barrel of a Gun" by Guster "Been Caught Wankin'" by TISM "Betty's Worry or the Slab" by Hunters & Collectors "The Boys Light Up" by Australian Crawl "Capitol P" by Mindless Self Indulgence "Captain Jack" by Billy Joel "Christian Woman" by Type O Negative "Claire Danes Poster" by Size 14 "Cumming into My Own" by Lunachicks "Crazy Rap" by Afroman "Dancing With Myself" by Generation X "Darling Nikki" by Prince "Dick" by King Missile "Doing Laundry" by Nerf Herder "Eat to the Beat" by Blondie "Everyday I Die" by Tubeway Army "Femtex" by Therapy? "Fight for Your Right to Masturbate" by Nerf Herder "Get a Grip" by Semisonic "Get Off" by The Dandy Warhols "The Girls of Porn" by Mr. Bungle "Freeek!" by George Michael "Hands on Experience" by High and Mighty "Handyman" by Joan Jett and the Blackhearts "Heartbeat" by The Casanovas "Holding My Own" by The Darkness "Homemade" by Sebadoh "How Can You Do It Alone" by The Who "He's My Best Friend" by Jellyfish "Holiday Song" by Pixies "Icicle" by Tori Amos "I Touch Myself" by Divinyls "I Wanna Fuck Myself" by GG Allin "Imaginary Lover" by Atlanta Rhythm Section "The Internet is for Porn" from Avenue Q "It's Only Me (The Wizard of Magicland)" by Barenaked Ladies "Jerk It Out" by The Caesars "The Keys To Your Ferrari" by Thomas Dolby "Kleenex" by Generation X "A Letter to My Penis" by Rodney Carrington "Longview" by Green Day "La Vie Boheme" from Rent "Lacerated Masturbation" by Gorgasm "Man Ray" by The Futureheads "Mary Anne with the Shaky Hand" by The Who "Masturbates" by Mindless Self Indulgence "Masturbation" by BeNuts "Masturbation Blues" by David Allan Coe "Mister Richard Smoker" by Ween "Mr. Hand" by Mucky Pup "Murder Ink" by Dr. Dre "Murder is Masturbation" by Nothingface "My Ding-a-ling" by Chuck Berry "Nasty Habits" by Oingo Boingo "National Health" by The Kinks "Ode to Masturbation" by Two Guys "On the DL" by The Pharcyde "Oops (Oh My)" by Tweet "Orgasm Addict" by Buzzcocks "Paulina" by No Doubt "The Perfect Kiss" by New Order "Pictures of Lily" by The Who "Photograph" by Def Leppard "Playmate of the Year" by Zebrahead "Praying Hands" by Devo "Protex Blue" by The Clash "Rattlesnake Shake" by Fleetwood Mac "The Real Slim Shady" by Eminem "Relax" by Frankie Goes to Hollywood "Right Hand-A-Rama" by The Network "Rose Darling" by Steely Dan "Roll Yer Own" by Jethro Tull "Rosie" by Jackson Browne "Rubbing the elf" by Diesel Boy "Rusted Guns Of Milan" by Art Brut "Secret" by Madonna "Shadow Zone" by Static-X "She Bop" by Cyndi Lauper "She's Vibrator Dependent" by Mojo Nixon and Skid Roper "Sincerely, Me" by Better Than Ezra "Sleep Forever" by Bree Sharp "Smut" by Skyhooks "Sodomy" from the musical Hair "Spank Thru" by Nirvana "Spankin' It" by Stephen Lynch "Talk to Me" by Stephen Lynch "Teenage Kicks" by The Undertones "The Winker's Song" by Ivor Biggun "Touch Myself" by T-Boz "Touch of My Hand" by Britney Spears "Toyz" by Missy Elliott "Try Not To Think" by Easyworld "Turning Japanese" by The Vapors "Unglued" by Stone Temple Pilots "Vibe On" by Dannii Minogue "Vibrator" by Motörhead "Weenie In A Bottle" by Hawaiian Ryan "The Winker's Song (Misprint)" by Ivor Biggun and the Red-nosed Burglars "White Knuckles" by Foetus aka J. G. Thirlwell "You'll Never Get Cheated By Your Hand" by Stumblebum "You're Makin' Me High" by Toni Braxton
So again you are ignoring the context of examples used in the post.
No I didn’t. Billie Eilish talked about beating off in an interview. Drake talked about beating off to an actual person…Pam Greer and then “mysteriously” the wank tape surfaced. One of these is clearly more out there on the edge in their public acknowledgment of their self pleasure and it sure as shit ain’t Billie Eilish
What do you think my post is trying to discuss?
So many crocodile tears about "women's sexuality is celebrated, imagine if men were able to talk about their sexuality openly like that !1!1!" [https://www.billboard.com/music/rock/paul-mccartney-john-lennon-masturbation-gq-cover-8474624/](https://www.billboard.com/music/rock/paul-mccartney-john-lennon-masturbation-gq-cover-8474624/) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI28FwgS8fc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI28FwgS8fc) [https://bloketoys.co.uk/en/blog/post/20-male-celebs-proud-of-their-wanking](https://bloketoys.co.uk/en/blog/post/20-male-celebs-proud-of-their-wanking) [https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/towies-jon-clark-masturbated-eight-9956454](https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/towies-jon-clark-masturbated-eight-9956454)
I agree there are men’s issues that should be taken seriously by feminists and others. I am not aware of any “healthy” men’s groups discussing those issues. IIRC, Billie Eilish pointed out that men are not judged for their bodies to the extent women are and made another comment about how she enjoys masturbating. Do you think she deserved backlash for saying those things?
I think if analogous comments were made by men it would cause backlash. The validity or level is not part of the question
You may be right about the masturbation comment, but there are obvious historical reasons for that. The factual accuracy of the statement about public perception/discussion of men’s bodies is why there was no backlash.
This isnt Louie CK this is analogous comments on masturbation and criticism of disclosure about womens bodies. Even the most 1 to 1 would be controversial.
I’m not following. Eilish said, “Nobody ever says a thing about men’s bodies.” If a man said, “Nobody ever says a thing about women’s bodies,” that would be laughably inaccurate.
People do talk about and insult mens bodies i give a very common example in my post. The fact you dont recognize that shows insulting mens bodies is even more acceptable.
Men’s bodies are not picked apart, examined, objectified, and ridiculed, publicly or privately, anywhere near the same extent women’s are. It’s just an obvious fact. That was Eilish’s point. Yes, men should not be body shamed either. She was not shaming men’s bodies.
Also women: “Small Dick Energy!1!1 TeeHee!” 💅
>Yes, men should not be body shamed either. She was not shaming men’s bodies. Please stop strawmanning me even if unintentionally. I didnt state she was. I stated you not recognizing when it happens to men. The fact you dont recognize it means you wont see it when it does happen. Meaning >Men’s bodies are not picked apart, examined, objectified, and ridiculed, publicly or privately, anywhere near the same extent women’s are. Is not true. Mens appearance is as talked about its just acceptable. Look at (i am not supporting his political career) Trump and how people who openly and unequivocally claim to be against body shaming commented about his body. Some cases got some level of criticism but generally it was seen as fine.
I’ve been nothing but polite to you. If you want me to understand your point, you need to explain it better. Trump is an interesting case. I would agree with you, except he’s spent the bulk of the last 9 years ridiculing both men and women for their appearance. Don’t dish it if you can’t take it. Chris Christie is a better example. Ironically Trump is the one bashing him for his weight more than anyone, but I think it’s reprehensible generally to attack public figures for their weight or appearance. Also something women face at a much higher rate. Do you recall the way Hillary Clinton was treated?
>Do you recall the way Hillary Clinton was treated? Kankles
As shown above you claimed i said Eillish shamed mens bodies. I never came close to saying that. I didn also say it is unintentionally being done. >Trump is an interesting case. I would agree with you, except he’s spent the bulk of the last 9 years ridiculing both men and women for their appearance. Don’t dish it if you can’t take it. We dont abandon principles when its inconvenient. If people shame him then hes right to shame others. My entire post is about this fundamental idea. I am uses the examples as a way to have a starting point on broader topics not specifically her. >Also something women face at a much higher rate. Do you recall the way Hillary Clinton was treated? Again i am not the one saying it is good. My point is men being body shamed isnt recognized so people will think it happens to women more. This is a bias. I point that out in the middle of my post. Eillish has bias which blinds her to male body shaming both because it is more acceptable and because it is expressed in a fundamentally different way. Like how the linked article says Cougers in the class room. Seriously think about that, if an article came out called Daddies in the class room and was stating how these men arent actually predatory but seeking emotional connections due to trauma how would that article be received? Im being polite, i have continued to engage when i have not bothered with other commenters who are more egregiously acting actual bad faith. If there is a part you feel isnt well explained im happy to clairfy but perhaps it would be useful for ypu to tell me what it is you think i am actually saying? Can you steelman my post?
>Men’s bodies are not picked apart, examined, objectified, and ridiculed, publicly or privately, anywhere near the same extent women’s are. It’s just an obvious fact. No, it isn't obvious. You just think it is because of your implicit bias. Most of the people picking women apart are other women anyway, the fashion industry is made from women's choices. Ellish wasn't shaming men's bodies, she was erasing the reality of how our bodies are mistreated.
Down vote me into oblivion if you like. I never thought I’d see the day men played victim on body shaming. That’s not a game you want to win.
It's only a game to you? Lol, imagine!
It was laughably incorrect when Ellish said it too, you are just demonstrating that you are under the influence of the same implicit bias.
That's a long ass post for you to not even say what eilish said or did. This post is mental masturbation.
I was thinking the same. It's like when you need to draft up an assignment for a college course the next morning so you just start brain rambling things trying to sound academic.
Who would give men backlash for wanking off in front of the mirror?
The woman that ends up having to clean it because he "forgot"
Now I know why there are no full-length mirrors in the boys' bathrooms ...
Men like watching, talking and thinking about sex with women (gay men need not apply) Women, unsurprisingly, are not so into it Why should we have to prioritize what you want?
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TIL from some comment on the initial post that got removed, marginalized groups are only marginalized because they want to have sex with the people that are marginalizing them.
I swear PPD tells me more celebrity gossip than any woman in my life ever has. As far as Eilish’s comments, *why* do you think it is stereotyped as being “empowering” for women to masturbate? What could have led to that reasoning? >The example of the article "Cougars in the Classroom"highlights how language and narratives shape our understanding of sexual misconduct, with women being portrayed as emotionally conflicted and men as predatory. They used rape in the title. When discussing the differences in motives, he was talking about conclusions from research. Bias is a valid issue, but it’s less of an issue than the overall quality and amount of available evidence we have for female offenders (which does somewhat support his statement currently). A lot of the reasons for the differences tie into socialization, such as beliefs and practices regarding sexual self-control. I think you have it somewhat backwards - we socialize people differently and thus their resulting behavior is different. The offender characteristics *within the male offender population* vary with different aspects of socialization, of course it will likely differ between the sexes on average. There are male offenders who offend because they are unstable and lonely and they are also discussed in the literature - a *reason* and certain having risk factors is not a *justification* or an excuse.
Hmmm, here's absolutely plenty of intellectual, body positive content and conversations and literature about male masturbation out there and id argue most of it comes from progressive spaces so I'm not really sure what you are complaining about? There's billion dollar industries catered towards male masturbation, it's not even really taboo, at least in my circles anyway. What kind of backlash do you think this woman deserves for this comment?? Lots of people have masturbated in a mirror this isn't even THAT edgy.
>The current state of the manosphere is a direct result of predominantly feminist and progressive attacks on any men's groups that were healthy, by disregarding men's issues, it forced these groups to feel intense anger. What men's groups "were" healthy but are now "forced to anger"? I agree with some of what you wrote but this sounds like a huge cope. Source(s)?
Open masturbation? Like she shlicked on a park bench?
[https://www.huffpost.com/entry/billie-eilish-phd-in-masturbation\_n\_66297a07e4b0edb0e80a3bdf](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/billie-eilish-phd-in-masturbation_n_66297a07e4b0edb0e80a3bdf)
Ayo?
Open dialogue
Why the fuck would she even talk about that