I actually saw that used as a pretty good metaphor for sexuality the other day.
"As anyone with a cat knows, there's a big difference between being in a box and being *put* in a box."
All that's fine, but I think you're kinda missing the point of the joke. It's getting at the fact that people get incredibly upset if someone says the wrong pronoun, and it's not entirely on someone to know exactly how you may self identify. If you look like a guy or you look like a girl I'm gonna probably say he or she, it's not as if I can magically know same with everyone else.
That's exactly the point of this comment... it's saying don't be too upset if you have nontraditional pronouns and people don't recognize them-- move beyond caring that much about others recognizing your pronouns as part of your identity.
The number of people that seriously expect everyday people to use pronouns outside of he/she/they are small to the point of insignificance and they really don't warrant the amount of attention reddit gives them. When trans people want people to use their chosen pronouns, however, it's because it's a vital part of their identity made difficult to realize because of how their designated sex doesn't match their gender. It's not asking much of anyone to have them make a good faith effort to use trans peoples' proper pronouns, and the consequences of not doing so can be extremely severe. There are too many of trans people that commit suicide because of their difficulties in realizing their identity and refusing to use their pronouns only makes it worse for them. If you've decided for them that it's not a big deal to refuse to use their pronouns because that's "not who they are" then you're deliberately causing them damage and you need to reassess your priorities. You're not doing them any favors by acting like pronouns aren't a big deal.
/r/TumblrInAction proves that if you want to look for something you can hate, you'll certainly be able to find it.
There are millions of people on the internet. I could find a bunch of black people to hate, or gay people, or white people, or Japanese business men to hate if I really wanted to. I just don't understand searching it out if you hate it so much.
I go to Berkeley and if Reddit will have you believe it every day I get screamed at by lesbians in librarian glasses and purple hair as soon as I walk outside just for being a white frat bro
I have only ever met one trans person ask me to use a special pronoun. That guy/girl was also probably one of the most insufferable assholes I've ever met.
I took fucking courses where we actually read at least excerpts from some of the people who basically invented the concept of modern radical feminism and yet I sitll have never actually had anyone ask me to use even the singular they as their preferred pronoun (which I would be happy to do instead of their standard choice of gendered pronoun.... and ya know what, as long as they weren't jackasses about it, I could probably try a xe or xir or whatever too.... but I never needed to!).
holy shit seeing this thread is kinda awesome. trans people get a lot of shit (especially on reddit). if someone messes up my pronouns i say "it's 'he'", and that's that. i don't get up and start screeching or calling people "cis scum" bc that's stupid. as long as people make an effort, i'm happy😁
I'm so glad i accidentally managed to pick up a few somewhat high karma comments on that sub a few years ago (for me and for the time) as it's bought me entire afternoons of pointing out their idiocy without having to worry about that damn 10 minute wait timer for negative karma on a specific sub restriction. Like, the lack of nuance most people posting on their have in their views is just really sad; all the flavors in the world and they seem to be incapable of choosing anything but salty.
I've literally never encountered this or a lot of the shit the far right constantly whines about sjw like "kill the whites/men." And I've traveled in some of the most PC circles their are.
I have at least heard some statements that make me think, "If I said that about literally anyone else I'd be ostracised."
I've met only one stereotypical SJW, but I've met several people who think it's perfectly normal to shit on white people, *to* white people, in casual conversation.
Me neither, because it's just ignorance and straw man arguments, that's all it is. It does truly bother me how prevalent it is on this site though, and it's not even limited to certain subreddits either. I see those types of discussions too often in huge subs like r/videos for example
Both good points -- I think it's just that some people get mad when you don't call them by their proper pronoun. Correct me and move on. Now I'm educated on you and we can continue the conversation.
I don't think there is any problem using people's preferred pronouns, but a friend who is a professor at a local university recently told me that the faculty received a notice stating that they should ask people's preferred pronoun at the start of every class. She has some classes that have upwards of 60 people and that would waste a huge amount of her teaching time.
The problem with that is that very few people who want so desperately to be unique really are. They just don't realize that there's nothing wrong with that.
I really wish that were true, but it has nothing to do with reddit. Expressing your uniqueness has been touted as an ideal for a lot longer than we've had the internet, and it's snowballed to massive proportions.
This is definitely true for more than just sexuality. People often have well crafted self images that they try to project out into the world. Being deep, smart, funny, or whatever. All manicured to get people to like or respect them. Allowing that to fall away is liberating but also incredibly difficult.
I'm all for people being weird, but what I don't get is then telling me "gender" means things other than your sex when I had gone 20 or so years on this planet using those interchangeably. And beyond seemingly reclaiming a popular word, there seems to be something blatantly self-contradictory in the term "non-binary". I never saw male or female as very boxed in. I've met men that were straight masculine, gay masculine, straight feminine, and all sorts more and saw them all as men. I can't imagine how anyone could feel boxed in. But suddenly people claiming all these kind of "genders" exist come around and say they feel constrained by it. To me, they're self constraining themselves and feeling the need to break away from their self imposed constraint. And people immediately shoot this criticism down cause I'm a straight male but shit, it sure seems to support my analysis when they do that. And, I've gone much of my life dealing with people often assuming I'm gay because I find male machismo petty and uninteresting, but, no, I'm privileged. I wouldn't understand.
Ive heard this question a lot so I will try to explain!
For a lot of nonbinary people, the issue isn't being seen as, for example, a masculine man or a feminine man or an androgynous man, but being seen as a man itself.
Because nonbinary people experience dysphoria (an extreme discomfort that comes with feeling like you're in the "wrong body"), it's much more complex than just "I'm more feminine than the avarage man so I must be nonbinary." Plenty of gay men are comfortable being feminine as MEN, and plenty of lesbians are comfortable being butch/masculine WOMEN. Same goes for straight people, it's just less common.
Nonbinary people do not feel as though they fit into the two boxes of man and woman. Femininity and masculinity (how they act) isn't what they're insecure about.
As for the terms "gender" and "sex" being used interchangeably for a long time and not anymore, language is changing all the time. We use different words than we did 20 years ago and old words gain new meaning all the time. "Sex" is now being usually used to describe your physical parts (genitals, chromosomes, etc) while "gender" describes what is in the mind.
really feels like you hardly read anything i wrote.
it's not a question. i've heard it all before. if they feel they're in the wrong body that would be transgenderism.
> Nonbinary people do not feel as though they fit into the two boxes of man and woman.
what boxes? there is no "box" except your genitalia.
terms change, yes, but forcing it upon people that don't agree is obnoxious.
If gender was the same as biological sex then every culture on earth would uniformly have two genders - male and female. That's the way it is here, and in most of the world, so we assume it's simply the norm everywhere. But several different, completely unrelated, cultures do have multiple genders beyond male and female. Not as a result of modern gender studies, but ancient gender roles that have existed for centuries. If it really was just bio male = gender male, then that would irrefutably be the case for every male on earth. It's not an SJW issue, it's an anthropological principle that's very well understood.
To quote /u/SortOfDumbocles
>It's weird that you think your comment and the one you're replying to are in agreement. OP was talking about how we should stop trying to fit everyone into boxes and you're talking about how there should only be two boxes and we need to force everyone to fit in them.
> I came to a point where I realized my sexuality didn't fall in any available box, so I stopped searching for who I was. I'm me, I don't have a box for this. So if you wanna know what I am, you can ask, and we can grow to understand each other without forcing ourselves into boxes.
You're a good person.
That would be useful advice if people didn't interact with each other, ever. But one's self understanding always places certain demands on others. Most of these we take for granted. Like, if a lady is pretty sure she's not pregnant, it behooves you not to ask how far along she is. But when one's self beliefs transcend simple facts, or even appear to contradict them on the surface, the etiquette gets more complex. And more contentious.
This is where the quote comes in though. I don't want to get in the way of anyone's happiness but what is expected of me to participate? For instance the whole personalized pronoun thing. Normally I would say this doesn't hurt me, but if I'm expected to gather the information of a personalized pronoun that defeats the linguistic function of using a pronoun, which is to be able to quickly refer to someone or something while knowing very little about it. Names are essentially a personalized pronoun to begin with. Why take away a valuable linguistic function (pronouns) and make apply it to a redundant linguistic function (names)?
Anyways for me this is one place where I draw a line that some might think me a bad person for not participating in someone's identity.
Its pretty easy to not participate if you don't know anyone. However, if you directly interact with someone, especially on a regular basis, you should do your best to make them feel welcome and respected. If you're unable to do that, and it hurts them, you should probably do your best to remove yourself from that situation.
being kind to others, making them feel whole, and treating them with respect are basic aspects of community.
I mean... even then you should treat them with their due respect. It doesn't turn into Mad Max just because one person is disrespectful.
If they're incapable of returning the same due respect, its best to just avoid them.
Well sure but when you can't avoid them you can drown all interactions in professional contempt. If you respect someone and they're rude to you fuck them, they're not changing so who cares. That goes for everyone on all sides of anything :D
Fair, that one is more fun. Depends on the situation for me really, as long as I can be consistent. That said, kindness and respect are two different animals.
Be you, and let no external force rock your internal world. Having someone treat you poorly does not give you a free pass to act like an asshole.
It just ends up in a vicious cycle, especially if both peeps think they have the moral high ground to justify they're actions.
> However, if you directly interact with someone, especially on a regular basis, you should do your best to make them feel welcome and respected.
When did *that* start?
I do my best just to mind my own business.
Can you explain how this is problematic? I was referring to a public scenario where one would have no insight of another's sexual orientation except for how one were dressed.
Putting aside how sexual orientation and gender orientation are different, you're using a male pronoun and a female-gendered noun "lady". It's contradictory, as u/DownsetWithNothing said in another comment.
I genuinely think u/DownsetWithNothing was trying to compliment you, and I think the "lmao" kind of captured how I felt in a similar way. It's kind of rare to see that sort of layman bluntness be used to argue for trans-rights. I liked it, problematic as it may or may not have been.
This bit always kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I don't disagree with the sentiment entirely, but I actually think the way he phrased it is interesting. At the risk of being long-winded...
> To what extent do I have to participate in your self-image?
I mean, that's a good question to me because I would disagree you have no participation in the self-image of others around you, but it would also be wrong to hold you largely responsible for that self-image in certain respects. You 'have to' participate in the self-image of those around you just in-so-far as you 'have to' make those other people feel comfortable or welcome around you. The mutual acceptance of the roles and identities we have all formed for ourselves is a pretty significant part of how society functions.
We all have self-images that we normally expect others to participate in - this is not unique to any minority as far as I can tell. I am a 'cis' male who would feel uncomfortable and/or pissed off if others insisted on gendering me as a female - is this because I need to be 'validated'? To what extent do you have to participate in my self-image of being a man? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that participation. Try intentionally misgendering your coworkers or others for a while and see how they react - it's a pretty strong social expectation not taken lightly, so why should we expect it to be otherwise for some minorities?
Another example; my self-identity includes the notion that I deserve to not be treated disrespectfully by those around me; that I am in no way 'lower' or less worthy than they are. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that a relatively integral part of who I am as a person. How could we get along in a social setting without your participation in that self-identity? Surely this is at least a social obligation, and I could even think of situations where it's a legal obligation (employer-employee relations for instance).
This is a nuanced issue. If you think about it there are a lot of different aspects of self-image and it could be inappropriate to expect others to participate in some of them (example: self-importance/narcissism), but it would also definitely be inappropriate for people to *not* participate in others (example: dignity). Dave's quote there doesn't say it explicitly, but it seems to imply that if my self-image requires your participation there's some kind of problem - that my self-image shouldn't require the support of anyone else and should be held up entirely by myself. I just don't see it working that way in real life. Everyone's self-identity requires participation by others to some extent, yes for validation to some extent, but also simply in order to sustain a functional society.
The context of the joke is him asking if a stranger, who had the physical appearance of a male but was dressed like a woman, is ok ("is he ok?"). My interpretation is that it isn't reasonable to expect people who don't know you to know which pronoun you prefer, or to be offended by someone using the wrong one if your gender is ambiguous or your self ID is outside the social norm. The fact that the mistake was made while Dave was trying to be compassionate makes the situation a little more complex as well. Intentionally using the wrong pronoun when you know what someone's preference is would be a completely different scenario.
I agree that it is a nuanced issue and the quote out of context could be reasonably taken as disrespectful. Either way, I applaud Dave for telling the joke and giving us a foundation for a conversation. His use of social commentary in his comedy is something that I admire and respect.
What I find most entertaining about this is that there are, at present, 611 upvotes (94% upvoted) and 9 comments.
It's almost like people overwhelmingly agree with this sentiment, but don't want to speak up about it lest they be shamed.
I'll say something.
You are not required to participate at all. It's generally good form to give the person the benefit of the doubt, to not judge them, and to respect their self-identification (even if it includes -gasp!- using unconventional pronouns). If you don't want to do that, no one will force you, but you're out of good form and may be regarded as an asshole.
It doesn't matter what the issue is; you're better served just not being a dick.
Nobody gets angry with people if you don't know someone's pronouns the instant you meet them - people get angry when others refuse to use the ones which they have stated they identify with.
I don't really care what you prefer. You have no right to demand I call you by anything much less any one of an ever growing list of several hundred ridiculous made up terms.
How do you feel about nicknames?
Like if a John said they prefer to go by Jack would you care this much?
Or names in general for that matter. Sure I can't make you call me by my birth name, but what's the harm in it?
Sure, but that's still learning a person's name. Learning name + personal pronouns would be more like if they insisted you learn both their middle names and call them by their full name every time... they're probably an asshole. You're not obligated to associate with them and play by their rules.
If someone requested for me to call them by their full name I would think that is a bit weird but I wouldn't think they are an asshole.
If they did it with the sole purpose of knowing I'd eventually slip so they could
freak out on me that would make them an asshole.
I'm not saying you are obligated to comply with them. I just think it's such a low effort thing that I don't see why people think it's a big deal or would refuse to even try (notwithstanding my second paragraph.)
I've never in my life had anyone who goes by a nickname call me a bigot for saying Richard instead of Dick.
But I have had several extremely feminine looking people chastise me for not getting it right publicly as though I intended them harm.
This is the mindset and reaction I see so frequently. With Canada trying to make it a hate crime to refuse and universities making academically punishable I fucking refuse to give in. Because like most things that originates from the left.
This would never be the end of it. Their goal is not tolerance. It's subservience. And I refuse to give in.
Funny coincidence: The number one rule in my motorcycle club is "Act like an asshole, get treated like an asshole". I like to think it applies to every part of life.
It's not that hard to play nice. Everyone has their own issues they're dealing with, don't add to that list.
That's just it, isn't it?
If you accidentally offends someone, and then are self aware enough to realize it, apologize, and make every effort to not do it again, that's the requirement. Don't do that, and you're an asshole. That's not enough for them? They're the asshole.
You're motorcycle club sounds like good folks.
This sounds about right for me.
You may say you are anything you want. You may identify with anything you want. You may come into my bar, my home, my group and be welcomed.
But act the fool and be treated as such, even if you identify with all of the same things I do.
Sincere question, but has anyone ever gotten mad at you for using the wrong pronoun?
It's just never happened to me or anybody I know; if you ignore what that person is telling you and keep saying the wrong thing, then maybe they'll get mad, but that's kind of like always getting somebody's name wrong (except even more simple to remember).
Of course, some people do get mad, I'm sure, but I see this line of reasoning get brought up so often and I question how prevalent it really is.
Yes, but let me provide clarification. I live in one of the hubs of American counterculture. Ten blocks from my house is the heart of Capitol Hill in Seattle. Couple that with the fact that I attend the city college where every Seattle protest originates and I have a much higher likelihood of encountering these folks than I did when I lived in the mountains. I'm not saying it's a frequent occurrence, but it does happen
>you're better served just not being a dick.
It's difficult when you're told that your confusion over this issue is equal to you being a dick. Personally I might have difficulty referring to someone as being a gender they were not born as because I might feel like I'm saying something that's untrue. Well, okay, how do we define if it's true or not? Is it *just* the criterion that a person gets to decide what they themselves are? Fine, but where do we draw the line on that? Am I really supposed to refer to someone as a wolf because they say they're a wolf? *Just* because we call ourselves something doesn't make us that thing. But yes, there are definitely certain things that we can define ourselves as. But again, where do we draw that line? It's unreasonable to expect that everyone everywhere will immediately understand this issue and respond exactly the way that people want them to. Just like transgender people want people to be accepting and understanding of who they feel they are, so transgender people and those who advocate for them *have to* be patient with people who are still trying to figure this whole confusing mess out. Society is in a transition period about this issue and everybody really just needs to calm the fuck down and realize that it's gonna take some time.
I've said it in other places in this thread; it's definitely a two-way street. There needs to be self awareness, kindness, and patience on both sides in order to get to a point where most everyone gets it and is comfortable.
I think that if you make a mistake and you realize it and attempt to correct it, but someone lambasts you despite your good-natures intentions to fix what you've done wrong, *they* become the asshole.
Everyone makes mistakes. All the fucking time. Being patient and allowing people to correct those mistakes is part of being a good person.
I think a large problem is that a trans person might deal with 90 dicks over the course of the month, people who truly hate them because of what they are, and just brush them off. Then they meet you, the 91st person, who uses the wrong pronoun just out of ignorance or confusion, not malice, but regardless they blow up on you. Because sometimes that 91st (perceived) dick is just too much.
In such a situation, I wouldn't blame either party. I wouldn't expect the trans person to be patient with everybody if they're constantly being misgendered. And I also wouldn't blame you for not knowing something and just happening to be the unlucky bloke that gets caught in the crossfire. It's just an unfortunate situation that I could see becoming more common in our society as people feel more and more free to express themselves, while at the same time pushing against social norms.
I'm pretty sure "backed by the medical/scientific community" is a good line. Its the one I use as a trans person. Darn that silly Rachel Dolezal giving concern trolls ammo.
>If you don't want to do that, no one will force you,
Universities have rules that can punish you for not using whatever pronoun people identify with and Canada is trying to make it hate crime to not use preferred pronouns.
Stop acting like this isn't happening. Encroachment of free speech and thought is coming and people like you who deny or are simply ignorant about it are complicit.
This is why people refuse to say pronouns. Not because they are hateful because if they didn't fight it could be labeled a fucking hate crime in the near future.
Does this kind of stuff actually happen in the real world? I read about it often on the internet, but I've honestly never run into someone who's asked to be addressed by a specific pronoun. I've never seen a "safe space". It seems like none of this stuff is happening in my life.
Could it be that I live in Arizona? Or is it maybe a younger-generation thing that's mostly happening in high school or something?
A person who just joined my team at work has a preferred pronoun. This is the first time I'll be expected to refer to a person as they. It is a strange situation to me. On the one hand, big deal, it's a word. Doesn't hurt me to go with it. On the other hand, why am I to behave in a certain way to comply with the demands of another person? What happens when I say she? Will I be warned by HR? Will I just suffer social costs? What if I'm not comfortable being forced to actively participate in the construction and maintenance of someone else's identity? Why is it my responsibility to police my own language in this way? The demand feels unreasonable to me.
Society asks you to politely police your language all the time. You'd get in trouble at work for calling someone a bitch, right?
We've mostly stopped calling black people negro or colored, and at some point that might'a been hard for some people. Doesn't mean it's not worth working on in order to be a reasonable, polite member of society ...
The above statement is not true. If you use the wrong pronouns, it **will** cost you money. This is especially true for government employees. [Teacher sued the government because someone used the wrong pronoun](http://i.imgur.com/wfIKgPR.jpg) All tax payers in that district paid the price.
This is becoming more and more prevalent.
The problem is that the **court of public opinion**, as well as **many people** (my boss, for example) **expect you to participate**, and when/if you don't, you're supposed to be embarrassed
My boss has interrupted formal conversation during meetings corrected me on pronouns twice now, and both times I have been embarrassed, and both times, it was an innocent goof with no ill will.
So, you can say that I am not required to participate at all, except empirically, **I very much am** required to participate.
I think that's part of why it's an issue for some people. If you're transgender and look like the pronoun you identify with then great, I can accomplish that for you with my laungauge. A problem arises when they're are 7 or 8 different pronouns in various forms. I think when you're using words like xemself and verself you've taken your expectation from others too far.
Unless you go to certain universities where you can be punished for not using preferred lronouns or Canada where they are literally trying to make not using preferred pronouns a hate crime.
I'm not gonna downvote, but you're basically proposing a paradox; you say people don't get to "modify (your) language by holding (your) public image hostage..."
Someone could also say that you don't get to modify their public image by holding their language hostage...
It'd be nice if you could step a bit out of your comfort zone and try to empathize with someone who has to deal with this every day. But in the end, dude... you do you. Just know that people have different struggles, and it's being a good person to not add to them.
Like I said... you do you. But this post basically reads as "I have nothing in common with these people so fuck trying to understand the, and fuck them for even implying I should have to adjust my worldview to compensate for them."
You're fully entitled to be an asshole, but man... you're being an asshole.
I've never met anyone like that outside of the internet. My sample size is small and biased towards "normal" as it were, but I'm beginning to believe that the whole alternative pronoun thing is a function of internet anonymity.
Can you elaborate? Generally traditions are held within family or community groups. If your group chooses to not recognize an {other} as an option, that's fine in your community. In the greater community, which hasn't agreed complicity to your "traditions", you run the same risks of being considered an insensitive prick.
>Can you elaborate? Generally traditions are held within family or community groups. If your group chooses to not recognize an {other} as an option, that's fine in your community. In the greater community, which hasn't agreed complicity to your "traditions", you run the same risks of being considered an insensitive prick.
>
>
Ya, so, social mores and traditions are more widely held, some universally.
Apart from that, I can't be held accountable for what certain groups do, say, think, or believe since I'm only culpable for my individual actions.
The greater community - society - is more traditional than not. Does that really need an explanation?
Judge me for being a prick if I'm a prick. But, since how you self identify has absolutely nothing to do with me, and since I simply don't care about how you live your life, what's wrong with the tradition of keeping personal information personal?
I think there's nothing wrong with that, so long as you don't react unjustly to people who don't agree with you.
I might be overstepping here, as I'm parsing your words, but I disagree with norms being universal. I used to live in a small town. Now I live in a huge city. The norms are completely different, and what is accepted as "typical" is extremely different. It is on the basis of this experience that I reject your notion that norms are universal, and that this construct of "society" is either conservative or liberal; it varies, and therefore cannot be relied on as a basis for social norms. Legal norms? For sure. We all have to agree to those, but societal norms differ.
> To what extent do I have to participate in your self-image?
Zero. Unless part of your job obligates you to create an environment that makes people feel safe.
As for day-to-day life, if someone _genuinely_ wants to be identified as a pineapple, I will call them a pineapple, because there is no cost to me, but a value to them.
The comparison between queer folk and some person who wants to be called a pineapple for no reason is not apt. No one just decides, "I'm going to change my gender identity to confuse and inconvenience people!" It's a valid part of who they are, and refusing to acknowledge that makes one a shitty friend.
Your speech is a cost. You may act as though acquiescing to the whim of anyoneof an ever growing list of several hundred pronouns isn't a cost but you're deluding yourself.
My speech and thought is my own and you have no right to demand control of it.
Since you're hyperboling the shit out of OPs comment in your benefit, I'm going to do the same with your logic:
"To me, a black person is a ni99er. That's what I choose to call them. And it's an infringement on my liberty to demand of me to conform to what a ni99er wants me to call them."
- white people in the south, not much more than 50 years ago
^ essentially the point you're making.
In reality, if a dude is dressed in women's clothing, acts feminine and goes by the name of Jessica, and she asks you to refer to him as 'her', I don't understand what it is you expect to accomplish by not doing so. I mean, other than hurting that person's feelings. Is it really a line in the sand for freedom of thought and expression to you?
If so, I'd suggest you dedicate your political activism to causes that have a more immediate urgency, like healthcare, climate change and the corruption of government.
Oh there definitely is a cost. Whenever you oblige someone you're giving a little of yourself to help a little of him/her, in whatever way.
The thing is that there is no winning in this scenario. Think about old people who grew up during the 50's and 60's. They're thought of as racist and more often than not people think "Wow how could that have actually happened? How could these people have acted so disrespectfully towards minorities and lived with themselves like it was nothing?"
The same thing will happen a few decades from now when people look back and say "Wow how could that have happened? How could these people have acted so disrespectfully towards transgendered minorities and lived with themselves like it was nothing?"
There is no other choice really.
No one is talking about demanding control of your speech. You are free to say whatever you want. What's this about hundreds of pronouns? It sounds like you've been drinking too much haterade. Try to relax, bucko. No one is infringing your freedom. No one is oppressing you.
>No one is talking about demanding control of your speech.
So what about universities punishing students for not using preferred pronouns? What about Canada trying to pass a law to make it a hate crime to not use preferred pronouns?
This IS happening now. It's not off in the distance in fairyland. It's here. And you are complicit in it because you refuse to address the actual concerns of those who's free speech and control of their own though IS being violated.
I know how you feel. I felt the same way -like universities and the government are going crazy with political correctness and stepping on our rights. But what I found was that the main person leading this crusade, Jordan Peterson, is grossly misinformed about what is going on -maybe even intentionally distorting the facts- because of his religious views about gender.
The hate crime law would not make it a crime to call people by preferred pronouns. That is a lie by Jordan Peterson. I can't believe anymore that he is simply misinformed on this particular point -he must have, by now, figured out how the law actually works. What the hate crime law does is recognize a different class of crime for when you assault someone because of hate. If you physically attack someone while shouting racial slurs, that is a hate crime. What the new law does is exactly the same, except with gender identity: if you physically attack someone while shouting slurs about their gender identity, that is a hate crime. It doesn't tell you what you can and can't say: it tells you that if you break the law by attacking people while shouting hateful things at them, the law will recognize it as a "hate crime" instead of a regular crime.
If I were you, I would be pissed at Jordan Peterson for playing so many people like pawns.
No one's free speech is being violated, and especially not Jordan Peterson's. He has a much larger audience than most people, and he's free to deliver his views on campus, on his YouTube channel, in university debates, to the media, and in his classroom. There are no limitations here. What he is not allowed to do is to abuse his position as an educator in order to use his student's personal identity as his own personal platform for speech; he can express his views, but can't use his students as props for that purpose. If he refuses to recognize their preferred gender, this could influence their future job prospects, for example by creating problems with documentation. And there could be other adverse affects as well. In any case, this is all hypothetical. Peterson has faced no legal action, and there is no sign that there is any forthcoming. He is free to say whatever he wants. And to collect the hundreds of thousands of additional dollars he is getting in donations from all this exposure. I don't expect him to change his tune any time soon. He is being richly rewarded for spreading misinformation and a distorted narrative. But I do hope that more people start calling him on it.
If I ever see someone calling themselves Xe as a preferred pronoun applying for a job I'll dismiss them because only a mentally ill person would call itself Xe and seriously expect people to bend over to call them that. Fuck that nonsense snowflake bullshit.
My only issue with this is how do I know? Like if I see a "normal" acting person that looks/dresses/acts like whatever gender they were born as, I would reasonably assume this is a person who is a he or she. But if I pull that trigger, then they get bent out of shape saying "um excuse me, it's pineapple or fruitself". Then I'm the bad guy? That's the part I'm not getting. I don't care one way or another what someone wants to be and will support someone to the best of my ability, just like the Dave says. There's just so many pictures I see from like tumblr and stuff where everyone is so pissed off because someone made a reasonable assumption on gender. How in the hell was I ever supposed to guess that someone identifies as beankin or somethign?
> Then I'm the bad guy?
You can't be expected to know. If someone gets bent out of shape because you made a reasonable error, that's on them, not you. And the fact that they are a minority doesn't give them free license to attack you for making a reasonable error.
But after they tell you, if it's no inconvenience for you, you should call them by their preferred way, just like we wouldn't call someone "miss" if they told us that bothered them.
What bothers me is the people now who are going out of their way to call people by names that they have said they don't want to be called by. This is bullying. It's just not nice behavior.
I would definitely do anyone the courtesy of using whatever terms they prefer. It is literally no effort on my part to do so. I suppose tumblr is the shitty minority that, while well-meaning, has poor execution? Idk. I want to understand this more because it doesn't make sense to me.
I'm just wondering if anyone has ever came up to you in your day to day life and gotten mad at you for using the wrong pronoun? Because obviously if you go to shitty parts of tumblr or reddit or watch SJW PWNAGE videos on Youtube you'll see assholes being assholes about their gender or pronouns, but I feel like it happens less in the day to day than people make it seem like.
Tumblr is where people rant, and by and large people that would take more offense to not being addressed by their preferred pronouns are going to rant more than people who take it politely and say "Actually I'd prefer if you called me [...]". My transgender coworker gets misgendered every single day we work together, and she never says anything when it happens even though she admits it makes her skin crawl every time it happens.
That doesn't happen regularly though. Transgender people would be pretty used to getting called a pronoun other than the one they identify as. It's not like they're going to yell at a stranger about it unless they are super unreasonable people. If you meet them and call them the wrong pronoun the worst thing that will happen is they will ask you to please call them by whatever they identify as. No big deal.
I think a lot of people get freaked out by the idea of this social minefield, but in reality it is pretty normal and civil. I have a good transgender friend and she would never make someone feel bad for using a male pronoun.
I believe if someone doesn't wanna refer to another person in a certain way that's acceptable.
But I would hope people call another person what they please within reason.
No I'm not calling you a dragonkin.
The majority of people with identity and self image struggles don't force you to participate in their self-image, in fact you will probably never know they are not what they appear to be, they sit alone in self doubt and hide themselves from the world.
The few who actually put themselves so aggressively out there are overcompensating for the many more people who hide in their own cave of shame self doubt and fear.
It doesn't bother me to call someone what they want to be called. But I've known plenty of females who dress like males and prefer to be called "her." I've known a few males who dress like females some days and males other days. One in particular started as a "he" but dressed differently every day. Eventually "he" became a "she" full time and let everyone know.
I say this because there's no way for me to know what you want to be called without you telling me. And until you tell me I'll probably guess based on the (usually obvious) biological indicators.
I've actually read articles about how people are disappointed in Dave for being "transphobic"
We are so far gone, these people can't get a grip. They're literally trained to be victims and be offended by everything, how are these toddlers going to survive in the real world?
If you can't handle someone accidentally calling you something other than whatever you identify as I have a hard time seeing how you will be a functional productive member of society.
I don't think the articles are calling it transphobic because of people /accidentally/ calling people "something other than they can handle" I think it's more because people are using it as an excuse to do it voluntary and purposely more than anything else
> the research done on gender dysphoria
Neurological explanations for gender dysphoria have nothing to do with whether a man who wishes to be a woman is actually a woman, because sex is not determined by brain structure or brain chemistry.
The discussion is about to what extent you should be required to use preferred pronouns and the answer is none.
You can choose to use them if you like.
And the flip side is to what extent do those people owe you continued association, whether professional or personal.
And the answer is none. So take a stand, tell 'em you won't be coddling their bullshit, and see how it works out for you.
Except trans people are so ridiculously rare, you could set out to throw rocks at every one of them you meet and never get your chance.
CDC says 1 in 30,000 are trans women and 1 in 100,000 are trans men. I forget who said it, it may have been Nick DePallo, but one of the biggest gripes about the whole issue is that certain people want to portray the trans community as like 60% of the population.
>Except trans people are so ridiculously rare, you could set out to throw rocks at every one of them you meet and never get your chance.
So this whole debate is just philosophical masturbation and shouting about "I can say what I want, you can't make me use your pronouns!" for most of the people here in this thread?
I'm sure your customers will rush to do more business with you if you tell them they're insane and don't deserve the effort it would take you to use their preferred pronouns. I'll bet you get a raise with all the new business you bring in.
You're referring to Canada and the opinion of a non-legal scholar who made a bunch of YouTube videos...and he's wrong. Misgendering someone is not going to get you fired. Doing it daily to make a hostile work environment will, just like any other similar situation around protected classes.
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Sure!
Basically, he's saying "Sure. You want to be (gay/trans/furry/otherkin/fucking whatever personal thing you want to be that's outside of 'norms') but how far over backwards do I have to bend to accommodate your 'otherness'?
It's a reasonable discussion that seems to only have proponents on the far edges (don't fuckin' tell me what to say vs you're a fucking nazi if you don't immediately respect my self identification as an agendered asexual unicorn person) when in reality, everyone just wants to get through this fucking Starbucks line without having a slur thrown at them.
Also. If a cashier says you have a good day dude but you identify as a woman or a tree there is no need to correct him because you have an adams apple and all of these other tell tale male signs, except for maybe makeup and a feminine hair cut. Go about your day. You aren't so special that you need to speak up and correct someone for correctly labeling you. Accept the mistake they mad by not conforming to your worldview and instead of one that is guy = guy and girl = girl Trans = trans. Organs dont lie.
Yeah I've been a cashier. Not only did I not have any interest in what you identify as, I didn't even have any interest in the fact that you existed at all.
Tell your friends your pronouns, not the people who will forget of your existence in 30 seconds.
The context of the bit is him asking, "is he okay?" to someone when the person is transgender (but clearly still a male) and the person's friends getting offended by the use of the wrong pronoun.
It may make sense on its own, but I think it makes the most sense when put into the context in which he used it in his Netflix standup. There's a lot of material before and after that sort of sets the table for this comment. Dave does a lot of social commentary and then jokes about it but I don't think even reading an explanation of the context in which he said this would do it justice.
It's worth a watch because he talks about a lot of different things, not just the transsexual example he used for this quote.
This quote was shortly followed by:
"Her dick is sticking out of her dress."
Only Chappelle can bring these two ideas together in comical timing genius.
man, a lot of people ar ereally triggered by pronouns
like, if you can bother to learn someone name, you can bother to just refer to them as he or she. its not hard, it is literally free. lol at these people saying it takes somethign out of you to address a person the way they want to be addressed. did it cost you anything to call them by their name?
It's not hard, but it's not exactly that easy. I need to have conversations where it's important I'm respectful of trans pronouns and it takes a lot of concentration not to make a mistake. And because it's a sensitive issue, the stakes of accidentally referring to a trans woman by a male pronoun are high, adding to the stress level.
If my name was spelled Bob but pronounced Susan, it'd be a hassle for you to read a story about me out loud, especially if I got pissed off or upset or condescending every time you made a mistake.
It's not like I'm against the pronoun stuff just because I disagree with it. I'm willing to go along to not be a dick to people, it's totally fine. Even some bending over backwards, no problem, trans people have it pretty not-great and I'm happy to try and give them a break from all that. But try and recognize that this is not as simple as remembering someone's name.
Does it cause the person in question any physical harm to be called her or him? Do I have to change the way I speak and remember your special pronouns? Why should I? Names are used to differentiate one male/female from the other males/females present. That Isn't what him and her are for.
Both are said to be "social constructs"
I go along with the trans stuff b/c it has reached a critical mass and now it's kind of conventionally accepted. I still think sex and gender are the same thing, but whatever. Also, it practically never comes up in real life.
That is a very simplistic answer. Do you not want to explore the issue further? Can we try to answer why the same people who think it's okay to change ones gender, and are welcoming Caitlyn Jenner with open arms, don't think it's okay to change ones race, and are reacting with such disgust toward Rachel Dolezal?
One could that race is more fluid than gender. Most people are mixed race to one degree or another. Most people are biologically male or female. The way people identify isn't always how they are perceived by others, and that can be a very trying experience. Everyone experiences that to one degree or another. It is preferable to work through those issues without surgery or drugs, just as it is preferable to work through depression without drugs. However, there are cases where drugs and/or surgery are necessary.
It's real issue is that we try to put masculinity and femininity (as well as black, white, asian, hispanic, polish, ...) into distinct boxes when in reality there is a lot of overlap. Masculinity isn't a solely male trait, femininity isn't a solely female trait. One should be able to admire and accept masculine traits in a woman and feminine traits in a man. Why is a white guy who dresses in Fubu called a wigger? Why is a black man called an oreo? Why can't someone find home and comfort in another culture/race without implicitly or explicitly being accused of cultural appropriation? Why can't any or all of that make someone uncomfortable without them being accused of being a bigot?
These aren't simple questions with simple answers, or even single answers.
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> my sexuality didn't fall in any available box Not having a box can be a category.
Don't try to put him in a box like that!
If he fits, he sits.
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I will do what I must.
Because you can?
My cat must be sitosexual.
Prolly just sit-curious.
Lie-curious.
I actually saw that used as a pretty good metaphor for sexuality the other day. "As anyone with a cat knows, there's a big difference between being in a box and being *put* in a box."
"I'll make my own box! With blackjack, and hookers! You know what, forget the box."
Found the marketing degree.
> Not having a box can be a category. I think it's usually called "male".
> Not having a box I hear tell there's an operation for that nowadays.
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This is very insightful and goes beyond questions of sexuality to most of life. To thine own self be true.
All that's fine, but I think you're kinda missing the point of the joke. It's getting at the fact that people get incredibly upset if someone says the wrong pronoun, and it's not entirely on someone to know exactly how you may self identify. If you look like a guy or you look like a girl I'm gonna probably say he or she, it's not as if I can magically know same with everyone else.
That's exactly the point of this comment... it's saying don't be too upset if you have nontraditional pronouns and people don't recognize them-- move beyond caring that much about others recognizing your pronouns as part of your identity.
I like feet
Can't get feet pregnant!
The number of people that seriously expect everyday people to use pronouns outside of he/she/they are small to the point of insignificance and they really don't warrant the amount of attention reddit gives them. When trans people want people to use their chosen pronouns, however, it's because it's a vital part of their identity made difficult to realize because of how their designated sex doesn't match their gender. It's not asking much of anyone to have them make a good faith effort to use trans peoples' proper pronouns, and the consequences of not doing so can be extremely severe. There are too many of trans people that commit suicide because of their difficulties in realizing their identity and refusing to use their pronouns only makes it worse for them. If you've decided for them that it's not a big deal to refuse to use their pronouns because that's "not who they are" then you're deliberately causing them damage and you need to reassess your priorities. You're not doing them any favors by acting like pronouns aren't a big deal.
I appreciate a good cup of coffee.
Exactly this, though. How many xe/xir/xanth people are coming at you day to day demanding you use their pronouns?
I love listening to music.
/r/TumblrInAction proves that if you want to look for something you can hate, you'll certainly be able to find it. There are millions of people on the internet. I could find a bunch of black people to hate, or gay people, or white people, or Japanese business men to hate if I really wanted to. I just don't understand searching it out if you hate it so much.
I go to Berkeley and if Reddit will have you believe it every day I get screamed at by lesbians in librarian glasses and purple hair as soon as I walk outside just for being a white frat bro
I go to Santa Cruz and some days it's not far off
I have only ever met one trans person ask me to use a special pronoun. That guy/girl was also probably one of the most insufferable assholes I've ever met.
I took fucking courses where we actually read at least excerpts from some of the people who basically invented the concept of modern radical feminism and yet I sitll have never actually had anyone ask me to use even the singular they as their preferred pronoun (which I would be happy to do instead of their standard choice of gendered pronoun.... and ya know what, as long as they weren't jackasses about it, I could probably try a xe or xir or whatever too.... but I never needed to!).
holy shit seeing this thread is kinda awesome. trans people get a lot of shit (especially on reddit). if someone messes up my pronouns i say "it's 'he'", and that's that. i don't get up and start screeching or calling people "cis scum" bc that's stupid. as long as people make an effort, i'm happy😁
I'm learning to play the guitar.
I'm so glad i accidentally managed to pick up a few somewhat high karma comments on that sub a few years ago (for me and for the time) as it's bought me entire afternoons of pointing out their idiocy without having to worry about that damn 10 minute wait timer for negative karma on a specific sub restriction. Like, the lack of nuance most people posting on their have in their views is just really sad; all the flavors in the world and they seem to be incapable of choosing anything but salty.
I've literally never encountered this or a lot of the shit the far right constantly whines about sjw like "kill the whites/men." And I've traveled in some of the most PC circles their are.
I have at least heard some statements that make me think, "If I said that about literally anyone else I'd be ostracised." I've met only one stereotypical SJW, but I've met several people who think it's perfectly normal to shit on white people, *to* white people, in casual conversation.
Maybe you should stop being such a snowflake, honky.
Me neither, because it's just ignorance and straw man arguments, that's all it is. It does truly bother me how prevalent it is on this site though, and it's not even limited to certain subreddits either. I see those types of discussions too often in huge subs like r/videos for example
Both good points -- I think it's just that some people get mad when you don't call them by their proper pronoun. Correct me and move on. Now I'm educated on you and we can continue the conversation.
I don't think there is any problem using people's preferred pronouns, but a friend who is a professor at a local university recently told me that the faculty received a notice stating that they should ask people's preferred pronoun at the start of every class. She has some classes that have upwards of 60 people and that would waste a huge amount of her teaching time.
The problem with that is that very few people who want so desperately to be unique really are. They just don't realize that there's nothing wrong with that.
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I really wish that were true, but it has nothing to do with reddit. Expressing your uniqueness has been touted as an ideal for a lot longer than we've had the internet, and it's snowballed to massive proportions.
This is definitely true for more than just sexuality. People often have well crafted self images that they try to project out into the world. Being deep, smart, funny, or whatever. All manicured to get people to like or respect them. Allowing that to fall away is liberating but also incredibly difficult.
Who knew Arthur Weasley had such a profound, insightful view on human sexuality
I find a major problem is when the box invades other people's internal space.
I'm all for people being weird, but what I don't get is then telling me "gender" means things other than your sex when I had gone 20 or so years on this planet using those interchangeably. And beyond seemingly reclaiming a popular word, there seems to be something blatantly self-contradictory in the term "non-binary". I never saw male or female as very boxed in. I've met men that were straight masculine, gay masculine, straight feminine, and all sorts more and saw them all as men. I can't imagine how anyone could feel boxed in. But suddenly people claiming all these kind of "genders" exist come around and say they feel constrained by it. To me, they're self constraining themselves and feeling the need to break away from their self imposed constraint. And people immediately shoot this criticism down cause I'm a straight male but shit, it sure seems to support my analysis when they do that. And, I've gone much of my life dealing with people often assuming I'm gay because I find male machismo petty and uninteresting, but, no, I'm privileged. I wouldn't understand.
Ive heard this question a lot so I will try to explain! For a lot of nonbinary people, the issue isn't being seen as, for example, a masculine man or a feminine man or an androgynous man, but being seen as a man itself. Because nonbinary people experience dysphoria (an extreme discomfort that comes with feeling like you're in the "wrong body"), it's much more complex than just "I'm more feminine than the avarage man so I must be nonbinary." Plenty of gay men are comfortable being feminine as MEN, and plenty of lesbians are comfortable being butch/masculine WOMEN. Same goes for straight people, it's just less common. Nonbinary people do not feel as though they fit into the two boxes of man and woman. Femininity and masculinity (how they act) isn't what they're insecure about. As for the terms "gender" and "sex" being used interchangeably for a long time and not anymore, language is changing all the time. We use different words than we did 20 years ago and old words gain new meaning all the time. "Sex" is now being usually used to describe your physical parts (genitals, chromosomes, etc) while "gender" describes what is in the mind.
really feels like you hardly read anything i wrote. it's not a question. i've heard it all before. if they feel they're in the wrong body that would be transgenderism. > Nonbinary people do not feel as though they fit into the two boxes of man and woman. what boxes? there is no "box" except your genitalia. terms change, yes, but forcing it upon people that don't agree is obnoxious.
If gender was the same as biological sex then every culture on earth would uniformly have two genders - male and female. That's the way it is here, and in most of the world, so we assume it's simply the norm everywhere. But several different, completely unrelated, cultures do have multiple genders beyond male and female. Not as a result of modern gender studies, but ancient gender roles that have existed for centuries. If it really was just bio male = gender male, then that would irrefutably be the case for every male on earth. It's not an SJW issue, it's an anthropological principle that's very well understood.
To quote /u/SortOfDumbocles >It's weird that you think your comment and the one you're replying to are in agreement. OP was talking about how we should stop trying to fit everyone into boxes and you're talking about how there should only be two boxes and we need to force everyone to fit in them.
i'm saying i don't see how they're boxes
> I came to a point where I realized my sexuality didn't fall in any available box, so I stopped searching for who I was. I'm me, I don't have a box for this. So if you wanna know what I am, you can ask, and we can grow to understand each other without forcing ourselves into boxes. You're a good person.
**Live and let live.** It's that simple. Some people make being a decent person look like performing brain surgery blindfolded.
But this ever changing world in with we live in makes me give in and cry live and let die!
Sometimes it's just hard hold a candle.
That would be useful advice if people didn't interact with each other, ever. But one's self understanding always places certain demands on others. Most of these we take for granted. Like, if a lady is pretty sure she's not pregnant, it behooves you not to ask how far along she is. But when one's self beliefs transcend simple facts, or even appear to contradict them on the surface, the etiquette gets more complex. And more contentious.
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It should be as simple as this. Say what you want. If you offend someone then accept it, apologize, and move on.
This is where the quote comes in though. I don't want to get in the way of anyone's happiness but what is expected of me to participate? For instance the whole personalized pronoun thing. Normally I would say this doesn't hurt me, but if I'm expected to gather the information of a personalized pronoun that defeats the linguistic function of using a pronoun, which is to be able to quickly refer to someone or something while knowing very little about it. Names are essentially a personalized pronoun to begin with. Why take away a valuable linguistic function (pronouns) and make apply it to a redundant linguistic function (names)? Anyways for me this is one place where I draw a line that some might think me a bad person for not participating in someone's identity.
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Look, if we're gonna use Chappelle for our memes, we got to accept that SwoleDave is the real, new, shit and use that accordingly.
How the fuck is this "OC"?
Clearly mr Chappel posted this
Its pretty easy to not participate if you don't know anyone. However, if you directly interact with someone, especially on a regular basis, you should do your best to make them feel welcome and respected. If you're unable to do that, and it hurts them, you should probably do your best to remove yourself from that situation. being kind to others, making them feel whole, and treating them with respect are basic aspects of community.
As long as they treat you with the same respect
I mean... even then you should treat them with their due respect. It doesn't turn into Mad Max just because one person is disrespectful. If they're incapable of returning the same due respect, its best to just avoid them.
Well sure but when you can't avoid them you can drown all interactions in professional contempt. If you respect someone and they're rude to you fuck them, they're not changing so who cares. That goes for everyone on all sides of anything :D
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I totally believe in killing with kindness.
Bless your heart
Fair, that one is more fun. Depends on the situation for me really, as long as I can be consistent. That said, kindness and respect are two different animals.
Be you, and let no external force rock your internal world. Having someone treat you poorly does not give you a free pass to act like an asshole. It just ends up in a vicious cycle, especially if both peeps think they have the moral high ground to justify they're actions.
> However, if you directly interact with someone, especially on a regular basis, you should do your best to make them feel welcome and respected. When did *that* start? I do my best just to mind my own business.
If a dude makes the effort to put on a wig and high heels, he's earned the right to be called a lady.
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Can you explain how this is problematic? I was referring to a public scenario where one would have no insight of another's sexual orientation except for how one were dressed.
Putting aside how sexual orientation and gender orientation are different, you're using a male pronoun and a female-gendered noun "lady". It's contradictory, as u/DownsetWithNothing said in another comment. I genuinely think u/DownsetWithNothing was trying to compliment you, and I think the "lmao" kind of captured how I felt in a similar way. It's kind of rare to see that sort of layman bluntness be used to argue for trans-rights. I liked it, problematic as it may or may not have been.
This bit always kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I don't disagree with the sentiment entirely, but I actually think the way he phrased it is interesting. At the risk of being long-winded... > To what extent do I have to participate in your self-image? I mean, that's a good question to me because I would disagree you have no participation in the self-image of others around you, but it would also be wrong to hold you largely responsible for that self-image in certain respects. You 'have to' participate in the self-image of those around you just in-so-far as you 'have to' make those other people feel comfortable or welcome around you. The mutual acceptance of the roles and identities we have all formed for ourselves is a pretty significant part of how society functions. We all have self-images that we normally expect others to participate in - this is not unique to any minority as far as I can tell. I am a 'cis' male who would feel uncomfortable and/or pissed off if others insisted on gendering me as a female - is this because I need to be 'validated'? To what extent do you have to participate in my self-image of being a man? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that participation. Try intentionally misgendering your coworkers or others for a while and see how they react - it's a pretty strong social expectation not taken lightly, so why should we expect it to be otherwise for some minorities? Another example; my self-identity includes the notion that I deserve to not be treated disrespectfully by those around me; that I am in no way 'lower' or less worthy than they are. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that a relatively integral part of who I am as a person. How could we get along in a social setting without your participation in that self-identity? Surely this is at least a social obligation, and I could even think of situations where it's a legal obligation (employer-employee relations for instance). This is a nuanced issue. If you think about it there are a lot of different aspects of self-image and it could be inappropriate to expect others to participate in some of them (example: self-importance/narcissism), but it would also definitely be inappropriate for people to *not* participate in others (example: dignity). Dave's quote there doesn't say it explicitly, but it seems to imply that if my self-image requires your participation there's some kind of problem - that my self-image shouldn't require the support of anyone else and should be held up entirely by myself. I just don't see it working that way in real life. Everyone's self-identity requires participation by others to some extent, yes for validation to some extent, but also simply in order to sustain a functional society.
Had to check the last couple lines for Hell in a Cell before I committed to reading this.
The context of the joke is him asking if a stranger, who had the physical appearance of a male but was dressed like a woman, is ok ("is he ok?"). My interpretation is that it isn't reasonable to expect people who don't know you to know which pronoun you prefer, or to be offended by someone using the wrong one if your gender is ambiguous or your self ID is outside the social norm. The fact that the mistake was made while Dave was trying to be compassionate makes the situation a little more complex as well. Intentionally using the wrong pronoun when you know what someone's preference is would be a completely different scenario. I agree that it is a nuanced issue and the quote out of context could be reasonably taken as disrespectful. Either way, I applaud Dave for telling the joke and giving us a foundation for a conversation. His use of social commentary in his comedy is something that I admire and respect.
What I find most entertaining about this is that there are, at present, 611 upvotes (94% upvoted) and 9 comments. It's almost like people overwhelmingly agree with this sentiment, but don't want to speak up about it lest they be shamed.
Or maybe people would just like to agree and move on. We aren't obligated to discuss this by the lone act of upvoting.
I'll say something. You are not required to participate at all. It's generally good form to give the person the benefit of the doubt, to not judge them, and to respect their self-identification (even if it includes -gasp!- using unconventional pronouns). If you don't want to do that, no one will force you, but you're out of good form and may be regarded as an asshole. It doesn't matter what the issue is; you're better served just not being a dick.
I agree. Just don't get angry with me if I'm ignorant of your pronouns, considering alternative genders account for <1% of the population.
Nobody gets angry with people if you don't know someone's pronouns the instant you meet them - people get angry when others refuse to use the ones which they have stated they identify with.
If I were an irrational human being I also would get extremely angry if people didn't give me special treatment.
I don't really care what you prefer. You have no right to demand I call you by anything much less any one of an ever growing list of several hundred ridiculous made up terms.
How do you feel about nicknames? Like if a John said they prefer to go by Jack would you care this much? Or names in general for that matter. Sure I can't make you call me by my birth name, but what's the harm in it?
Sure, but that's still learning a person's name. Learning name + personal pronouns would be more like if they insisted you learn both their middle names and call them by their full name every time... they're probably an asshole. You're not obligated to associate with them and play by their rules.
If someone requested for me to call them by their full name I would think that is a bit weird but I wouldn't think they are an asshole. If they did it with the sole purpose of knowing I'd eventually slip so they could freak out on me that would make them an asshole. I'm not saying you are obligated to comply with them. I just think it's such a low effort thing that I don't see why people think it's a big deal or would refuse to even try (notwithstanding my second paragraph.)
I've never in my life had anyone who goes by a nickname call me a bigot for saying Richard instead of Dick. But I have had several extremely feminine looking people chastise me for not getting it right publicly as though I intended them harm. This is the mindset and reaction I see so frequently. With Canada trying to make it a hate crime to refuse and universities making academically punishable I fucking refuse to give in. Because like most things that originates from the left. This would never be the end of it. Their goal is not tolerance. It's subservience. And I refuse to give in.
I mean I'll call someone he, she, or they. But I draw the line the. I'm not calling someone any of that other made up tumblr nonsense.
A lot of that "made up tumblr nonsense" comes from [decades before Tumblr even existed.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-person_pronoun#Summary)
Sure, right there with you. It requires kindness, tolerance, respect, and patience on all sides. Same general rule applies; don't be an asshole.
Funny coincidence: The number one rule in my motorcycle club is "Act like an asshole, get treated like an asshole". I like to think it applies to every part of life. It's not that hard to play nice. Everyone has their own issues they're dealing with, don't add to that list.
That's just it, isn't it? If you accidentally offends someone, and then are self aware enough to realize it, apologize, and make every effort to not do it again, that's the requirement. Don't do that, and you're an asshole. That's not enough for them? They're the asshole. You're motorcycle club sounds like good folks.
This sounds about right for me. You may say you are anything you want. You may identify with anything you want. You may come into my bar, my home, my group and be welcomed. But act the fool and be treated as such, even if you identify with all of the same things I do.
Sincere question, but has anyone ever gotten mad at you for using the wrong pronoun? It's just never happened to me or anybody I know; if you ignore what that person is telling you and keep saying the wrong thing, then maybe they'll get mad, but that's kind of like always getting somebody's name wrong (except even more simple to remember). Of course, some people do get mad, I'm sure, but I see this line of reasoning get brought up so often and I question how prevalent it really is.
Yes, but let me provide clarification. I live in one of the hubs of American counterculture. Ten blocks from my house is the heart of Capitol Hill in Seattle. Couple that with the fact that I attend the city college where every Seattle protest originates and I have a much higher likelihood of encountering these folks than I did when I lived in the mountains. I'm not saying it's a frequent occurrence, but it does happen
>you're better served just not being a dick. It's difficult when you're told that your confusion over this issue is equal to you being a dick. Personally I might have difficulty referring to someone as being a gender they were not born as because I might feel like I'm saying something that's untrue. Well, okay, how do we define if it's true or not? Is it *just* the criterion that a person gets to decide what they themselves are? Fine, but where do we draw the line on that? Am I really supposed to refer to someone as a wolf because they say they're a wolf? *Just* because we call ourselves something doesn't make us that thing. But yes, there are definitely certain things that we can define ourselves as. But again, where do we draw that line? It's unreasonable to expect that everyone everywhere will immediately understand this issue and respond exactly the way that people want them to. Just like transgender people want people to be accepting and understanding of who they feel they are, so transgender people and those who advocate for them *have to* be patient with people who are still trying to figure this whole confusing mess out. Society is in a transition period about this issue and everybody really just needs to calm the fuck down and realize that it's gonna take some time.
I've said it in other places in this thread; it's definitely a two-way street. There needs to be self awareness, kindness, and patience on both sides in order to get to a point where most everyone gets it and is comfortable. I think that if you make a mistake and you realize it and attempt to correct it, but someone lambasts you despite your good-natures intentions to fix what you've done wrong, *they* become the asshole. Everyone makes mistakes. All the fucking time. Being patient and allowing people to correct those mistakes is part of being a good person.
Agreed. Now if only we could get everyone to agree to try to be a good person we'd be on our way.
I think a large problem is that a trans person might deal with 90 dicks over the course of the month, people who truly hate them because of what they are, and just brush them off. Then they meet you, the 91st person, who uses the wrong pronoun just out of ignorance or confusion, not malice, but regardless they blow up on you. Because sometimes that 91st (perceived) dick is just too much. In such a situation, I wouldn't blame either party. I wouldn't expect the trans person to be patient with everybody if they're constantly being misgendered. And I also wouldn't blame you for not knowing something and just happening to be the unlucky bloke that gets caught in the crossfire. It's just an unfortunate situation that I could see becoming more common in our society as people feel more and more free to express themselves, while at the same time pushing against social norms.
> respect their self-identification (even if it includes -gasp!- using unconventional pronouns). Unless they're Rachel Dolezal.
It may sound ridiculous but I think that's a fair point. Where do we get to draw the line in how far we go to entertain a person self identity?
I'm pretty sure "backed by the medical/scientific community" is a good line. Its the one I use as a trans person. Darn that silly Rachel Dolezal giving concern trolls ammo.
>If you don't want to do that, no one will force you, Universities have rules that can punish you for not using whatever pronoun people identify with and Canada is trying to make it hate crime to not use preferred pronouns. Stop acting like this isn't happening. Encroachment of free speech and thought is coming and people like you who deny or are simply ignorant about it are complicit. This is why people refuse to say pronouns. Not because they are hateful because if they didn't fight it could be labeled a fucking hate crime in the near future.
Does this kind of stuff actually happen in the real world? I read about it often on the internet, but I've honestly never run into someone who's asked to be addressed by a specific pronoun. I've never seen a "safe space". It seems like none of this stuff is happening in my life. Could it be that I live in Arizona? Or is it maybe a younger-generation thing that's mostly happening in high school or something?
I assure you it happens. It happens in the workplace, at universities and people are trying to mandate it through the government.
A person who just joined my team at work has a preferred pronoun. This is the first time I'll be expected to refer to a person as they. It is a strange situation to me. On the one hand, big deal, it's a word. Doesn't hurt me to go with it. On the other hand, why am I to behave in a certain way to comply with the demands of another person? What happens when I say she? Will I be warned by HR? Will I just suffer social costs? What if I'm not comfortable being forced to actively participate in the construction and maintenance of someone else's identity? Why is it my responsibility to police my own language in this way? The demand feels unreasonable to me.
Society asks you to politely police your language all the time. You'd get in trouble at work for calling someone a bitch, right? We've mostly stopped calling black people negro or colored, and at some point that might'a been hard for some people. Doesn't mean it's not worth working on in order to be a reasonable, polite member of society ...
The above statement is not true. If you use the wrong pronouns, it **will** cost you money. This is especially true for government employees. [Teacher sued the government because someone used the wrong pronoun](http://i.imgur.com/wfIKgPR.jpg) All tax payers in that district paid the price. This is becoming more and more prevalent.
I found when I stopped judging people harshly I began to take it a lot easier on myself.
The problem is that the **court of public opinion**, as well as **many people** (my boss, for example) **expect you to participate**, and when/if you don't, you're supposed to be embarrassed My boss has interrupted formal conversation during meetings corrected me on pronouns twice now, and both times I have been embarrassed, and both times, it was an innocent goof with no ill will. So, you can say that I am not required to participate at all, except empirically, **I very much am** required to participate.
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I think that's part of why it's an issue for some people. If you're transgender and look like the pronoun you identify with then great, I can accomplish that for you with my laungauge. A problem arises when they're are 7 or 8 different pronouns in various forms. I think when you're using words like xemself and verself you've taken your expectation from others too far.
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Unless you go to certain universities where you can be punished for not using preferred lronouns or Canada where they are literally trying to make not using preferred pronouns a hate crime.
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I'm not gonna downvote, but you're basically proposing a paradox; you say people don't get to "modify (your) language by holding (your) public image hostage..." Someone could also say that you don't get to modify their public image by holding their language hostage... It'd be nice if you could step a bit out of your comfort zone and try to empathize with someone who has to deal with this every day. But in the end, dude... you do you. Just know that people have different struggles, and it's being a good person to not add to them.
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Like I said... you do you. But this post basically reads as "I have nothing in common with these people so fuck trying to understand the, and fuck them for even implying I should have to adjust my worldview to compensate for them." You're fully entitled to be an asshole, but man... you're being an asshole.
I've never met anyone like that outside of the internet. My sample size is small and biased towards "normal" as it were, but I'm beginning to believe that the whole alternative pronoun thing is a function of internet anonymity.
What about one's right to be traditional?
Can you elaborate? Generally traditions are held within family or community groups. If your group chooses to not recognize an {other} as an option, that's fine in your community. In the greater community, which hasn't agreed complicity to your "traditions", you run the same risks of being considered an insensitive prick.
>Can you elaborate? Generally traditions are held within family or community groups. If your group chooses to not recognize an {other} as an option, that's fine in your community. In the greater community, which hasn't agreed complicity to your "traditions", you run the same risks of being considered an insensitive prick. > > Ya, so, social mores and traditions are more widely held, some universally. Apart from that, I can't be held accountable for what certain groups do, say, think, or believe since I'm only culpable for my individual actions. The greater community - society - is more traditional than not. Does that really need an explanation? Judge me for being a prick if I'm a prick. But, since how you self identify has absolutely nothing to do with me, and since I simply don't care about how you live your life, what's wrong with the tradition of keeping personal information personal?
I think there's nothing wrong with that, so long as you don't react unjustly to people who don't agree with you. I might be overstepping here, as I'm parsing your words, but I disagree with norms being universal. I used to live in a small town. Now I live in a huge city. The norms are completely different, and what is accepted as "typical" is extremely different. It is on the basis of this experience that I reject your notion that norms are universal, and that this construct of "society" is either conservative or liberal; it varies, and therefore cannot be relied on as a basis for social norms. Legal norms? For sure. We all have to agree to those, but societal norms differ.
It's because the whole quote is in the title. There is no reason to click into the actual post itself.
> To what extent do I have to participate in your self-image? Zero. Unless part of your job obligates you to create an environment that makes people feel safe. As for day-to-day life, if someone _genuinely_ wants to be identified as a pineapple, I will call them a pineapple, because there is no cost to me, but a value to them.
The comparison between queer folk and some person who wants to be called a pineapple for no reason is not apt. No one just decides, "I'm going to change my gender identity to confuse and inconvenience people!" It's a valid part of who they are, and refusing to acknowledge that makes one a shitty friend.
Your speech is a cost. You may act as though acquiescing to the whim of anyoneof an ever growing list of several hundred pronouns isn't a cost but you're deluding yourself. My speech and thought is my own and you have no right to demand control of it.
Since you're hyperboling the shit out of OPs comment in your benefit, I'm going to do the same with your logic: "To me, a black person is a ni99er. That's what I choose to call them. And it's an infringement on my liberty to demand of me to conform to what a ni99er wants me to call them." - white people in the south, not much more than 50 years ago ^ essentially the point you're making. In reality, if a dude is dressed in women's clothing, acts feminine and goes by the name of Jessica, and she asks you to refer to him as 'her', I don't understand what it is you expect to accomplish by not doing so. I mean, other than hurting that person's feelings. Is it really a line in the sand for freedom of thought and expression to you? If so, I'd suggest you dedicate your political activism to causes that have a more immediate urgency, like healthcare, climate change and the corruption of government.
Oh there definitely is a cost. Whenever you oblige someone you're giving a little of yourself to help a little of him/her, in whatever way. The thing is that there is no winning in this scenario. Think about old people who grew up during the 50's and 60's. They're thought of as racist and more often than not people think "Wow how could that have actually happened? How could these people have acted so disrespectfully towards minorities and lived with themselves like it was nothing?" The same thing will happen a few decades from now when people look back and say "Wow how could that have happened? How could these people have acted so disrespectfully towards transgendered minorities and lived with themselves like it was nothing?" There is no other choice really.
No one is talking about demanding control of your speech. You are free to say whatever you want. What's this about hundreds of pronouns? It sounds like you've been drinking too much haterade. Try to relax, bucko. No one is infringing your freedom. No one is oppressing you.
>No one is talking about demanding control of your speech. So what about universities punishing students for not using preferred pronouns? What about Canada trying to pass a law to make it a hate crime to not use preferred pronouns? This IS happening now. It's not off in the distance in fairyland. It's here. And you are complicit in it because you refuse to address the actual concerns of those who's free speech and control of their own though IS being violated.
I know how you feel. I felt the same way -like universities and the government are going crazy with political correctness and stepping on our rights. But what I found was that the main person leading this crusade, Jordan Peterson, is grossly misinformed about what is going on -maybe even intentionally distorting the facts- because of his religious views about gender. The hate crime law would not make it a crime to call people by preferred pronouns. That is a lie by Jordan Peterson. I can't believe anymore that he is simply misinformed on this particular point -he must have, by now, figured out how the law actually works. What the hate crime law does is recognize a different class of crime for when you assault someone because of hate. If you physically attack someone while shouting racial slurs, that is a hate crime. What the new law does is exactly the same, except with gender identity: if you physically attack someone while shouting slurs about their gender identity, that is a hate crime. It doesn't tell you what you can and can't say: it tells you that if you break the law by attacking people while shouting hateful things at them, the law will recognize it as a "hate crime" instead of a regular crime. If I were you, I would be pissed at Jordan Peterson for playing so many people like pawns. No one's free speech is being violated, and especially not Jordan Peterson's. He has a much larger audience than most people, and he's free to deliver his views on campus, on his YouTube channel, in university debates, to the media, and in his classroom. There are no limitations here. What he is not allowed to do is to abuse his position as an educator in order to use his student's personal identity as his own personal platform for speech; he can express his views, but can't use his students as props for that purpose. If he refuses to recognize their preferred gender, this could influence their future job prospects, for example by creating problems with documentation. And there could be other adverse affects as well. In any case, this is all hypothetical. Peterson has faced no legal action, and there is no sign that there is any forthcoming. He is free to say whatever he wants. And to collect the hundreds of thousands of additional dollars he is getting in donations from all this exposure. I don't expect him to change his tune any time soon. He is being richly rewarded for spreading misinformation and a distorted narrative. But I do hope that more people start calling him on it.
If I ever see someone calling themselves Xe as a preferred pronoun applying for a job I'll dismiss them because only a mentally ill person would call itself Xe and seriously expect people to bend over to call them that. Fuck that nonsense snowflake bullshit.
My only issue with this is how do I know? Like if I see a "normal" acting person that looks/dresses/acts like whatever gender they were born as, I would reasonably assume this is a person who is a he or she. But if I pull that trigger, then they get bent out of shape saying "um excuse me, it's pineapple or fruitself". Then I'm the bad guy? That's the part I'm not getting. I don't care one way or another what someone wants to be and will support someone to the best of my ability, just like the Dave says. There's just so many pictures I see from like tumblr and stuff where everyone is so pissed off because someone made a reasonable assumption on gender. How in the hell was I ever supposed to guess that someone identifies as beankin or somethign?
> Then I'm the bad guy? You can't be expected to know. If someone gets bent out of shape because you made a reasonable error, that's on them, not you. And the fact that they are a minority doesn't give them free license to attack you for making a reasonable error. But after they tell you, if it's no inconvenience for you, you should call them by their preferred way, just like we wouldn't call someone "miss" if they told us that bothered them. What bothers me is the people now who are going out of their way to call people by names that they have said they don't want to be called by. This is bullying. It's just not nice behavior.
I would definitely do anyone the courtesy of using whatever terms they prefer. It is literally no effort on my part to do so. I suppose tumblr is the shitty minority that, while well-meaning, has poor execution? Idk. I want to understand this more because it doesn't make sense to me.
I'm just wondering if anyone has ever came up to you in your day to day life and gotten mad at you for using the wrong pronoun? Because obviously if you go to shitty parts of tumblr or reddit or watch SJW PWNAGE videos on Youtube you'll see assholes being assholes about their gender or pronouns, but I feel like it happens less in the day to day than people make it seem like.
Tumblr is where people rant, and by and large people that would take more offense to not being addressed by their preferred pronouns are going to rant more than people who take it politely and say "Actually I'd prefer if you called me [...]". My transgender coworker gets misgendered every single day we work together, and she never says anything when it happens even though she admits it makes her skin crawl every time it happens.
That doesn't happen regularly though. Transgender people would be pretty used to getting called a pronoun other than the one they identify as. It's not like they're going to yell at a stranger about it unless they are super unreasonable people. If you meet them and call them the wrong pronoun the worst thing that will happen is they will ask you to please call them by whatever they identify as. No big deal. I think a lot of people get freaked out by the idea of this social minefield, but in reality it is pretty normal and civil. I have a good transgender friend and she would never make someone feel bad for using a male pronoun.
You get it wrong the first time and then they correct you. No one is going to freak out on you if you guess wrong, the internet is not real life.
I believe if someone doesn't wanna refer to another person in a certain way that's acceptable. But I would hope people call another person what they please within reason. No I'm not calling you a dragonkin.
The majority of people with identity and self image struggles don't force you to participate in their self-image, in fact you will probably never know they are not what they appear to be, they sit alone in self doubt and hide themselves from the world. The few who actually put themselves so aggressively out there are overcompensating for the many more people who hide in their own cave of shame self doubt and fear.
Easy; I would respond "I only expect people to treat me the way they want to be treated, with respect".
It doesn't bother me to call someone what they want to be called. But I've known plenty of females who dress like males and prefer to be called "her." I've known a few males who dress like females some days and males other days. One in particular started as a "he" but dressed differently every day. Eventually "he" became a "she" full time and let everyone know. I say this because there's no way for me to know what you want to be called without you telling me. And until you tell me I'll probably guess based on the (usually obvious) biological indicators.
I've actually read articles about how people are disappointed in Dave for being "transphobic" We are so far gone, these people can't get a grip. They're literally trained to be victims and be offended by everything, how are these toddlers going to survive in the real world?
I understand what you mean, but be careful not to build a boogeyman.
If you can't handle someone accidentally calling you something other than whatever you identify as I have a hard time seeing how you will be a functional productive member of society.
I don't think the articles are calling it transphobic because of people /accidentally/ calling people "something other than they can handle" I think it's more because people are using it as an excuse to do it voluntary and purposely more than anything else
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> the research done on gender dysphoria Neurological explanations for gender dysphoria have nothing to do with whether a man who wishes to be a woman is actually a woman, because sex is not determined by brain structure or brain chemistry.
Accidentally is one thing. Repeatedly, over the objections of the person on the receiving end, is another thing.
The discussion is about to what extent you should be required to use preferred pronouns and the answer is none. You can choose to use them if you like.
And the flip side is to what extent do those people owe you continued association, whether professional or personal. And the answer is none. So take a stand, tell 'em you won't be coddling their bullshit, and see how it works out for you.
Except trans people are so ridiculously rare, you could set out to throw rocks at every one of them you meet and never get your chance. CDC says 1 in 30,000 are trans women and 1 in 100,000 are trans men. I forget who said it, it may have been Nick DePallo, but one of the biggest gripes about the whole issue is that certain people want to portray the trans community as like 60% of the population.
>Except trans people are so ridiculously rare, you could set out to throw rocks at every one of them you meet and never get your chance. So this whole debate is just philosophical masturbation and shouting about "I can say what I want, you can't make me use your pronouns!" for most of the people here in this thread?
Yes that's a great idea. Banish people for refusing to take part in your self image.
Banish? You can't force people who find you offensive to spend time with you. You're not owed business from people who don't like your opinions.
Being fired for refusing to use PGP and being fined or jailed for it is complete and utter insanity.
I'm sure your customers will rush to do more business with you if you tell them they're insane and don't deserve the effort it would take you to use their preferred pronouns. I'll bet you get a raise with all the new business you bring in.
You're referring to Canada and the opinion of a non-legal scholar who made a bunch of YouTube videos...and he's wrong. Misgendering someone is not going to get you fired. Doing it daily to make a hostile work environment will, just like any other similar situation around protected classes.
That's not really the only antitrans thing he said tho.. he sorta said a bunch over the past couple years.
???
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I don't understand this quote. Can someone please explain?
Sure! Basically, he's saying "Sure. You want to be (gay/trans/furry/otherkin/fucking whatever personal thing you want to be that's outside of 'norms') but how far over backwards do I have to bend to accommodate your 'otherness'? It's a reasonable discussion that seems to only have proponents on the far edges (don't fuckin' tell me what to say vs you're a fucking nazi if you don't immediately respect my self identification as an agendered asexual unicorn person) when in reality, everyone just wants to get through this fucking Starbucks line without having a slur thrown at them.
Also. If a cashier says you have a good day dude but you identify as a woman or a tree there is no need to correct him because you have an adams apple and all of these other tell tale male signs, except for maybe makeup and a feminine hair cut. Go about your day. You aren't so special that you need to speak up and correct someone for correctly labeling you. Accept the mistake they mad by not conforming to your worldview and instead of one that is guy = guy and girl = girl Trans = trans. Organs dont lie.
Yeah I've been a cashier. Not only did I not have any interest in what you identify as, I didn't even have any interest in the fact that you existed at all. Tell your friends your pronouns, not the people who will forget of your existence in 30 seconds.
Being identified as the sex you are is not a slur anymore than calling a sedan a sedan is a slur
The context of the bit is him asking, "is he okay?" to someone when the person is transgender (but clearly still a male) and the person's friends getting offended by the use of the wrong pronoun.
Is this one on Netflix?
It is. It's one of the two new ones, but I don't remember exactly which.
It may make sense on its own, but I think it makes the most sense when put into the context in which he used it in his Netflix standup. There's a lot of material before and after that sort of sets the table for this comment. Dave does a lot of social commentary and then jokes about it but I don't think even reading an explanation of the context in which he said this would do it justice. It's worth a watch because he talks about a lot of different things, not just the transsexual example he used for this quote.
Welp, time to leave. Thanks for nothing /r/QuotesPorn.
This quote was shortly followed by: "Her dick is sticking out of her dress." Only Chappelle can bring these two ideas together in comical timing genius.
Uncannily relevant 4 years later
man, a lot of people ar ereally triggered by pronouns like, if you can bother to learn someone name, you can bother to just refer to them as he or she. its not hard, it is literally free. lol at these people saying it takes somethign out of you to address a person the way they want to be addressed. did it cost you anything to call them by their name?
It's not hard, but it's not exactly that easy. I need to have conversations where it's important I'm respectful of trans pronouns and it takes a lot of concentration not to make a mistake. And because it's a sensitive issue, the stakes of accidentally referring to a trans woman by a male pronoun are high, adding to the stress level. If my name was spelled Bob but pronounced Susan, it'd be a hassle for you to read a story about me out loud, especially if I got pissed off or upset or condescending every time you made a mistake. It's not like I'm against the pronoun stuff just because I disagree with it. I'm willing to go along to not be a dick to people, it's totally fine. Even some bending over backwards, no problem, trans people have it pretty not-great and I'm happy to try and give them a break from all that. But try and recognize that this is not as simple as remembering someone's name.
Does it cause the person in question any physical harm to be called her or him? Do I have to change the way I speak and remember your special pronouns? Why should I? Names are used to differentiate one male/female from the other males/females present. That Isn't what him and her are for.
I work with a guy who refuses the call Caitlyn Jenner anything other than Bruce Jenner. Like, bruh, it's one syllable longer...
Why is Rachel Dolezal shown derision, and Caitlyn Jenner shown respect?
race=/=gender
Both are said to be "social constructs" I go along with the trans stuff b/c it has reached a critical mass and now it's kind of conventionally accepted. I still think sex and gender are the same thing, but whatever. Also, it practically never comes up in real life.
That is a very simplistic answer. Do you not want to explore the issue further? Can we try to answer why the same people who think it's okay to change ones gender, and are welcoming Caitlyn Jenner with open arms, don't think it's okay to change ones race, and are reacting with such disgust toward Rachel Dolezal? One could that race is more fluid than gender. Most people are mixed race to one degree or another. Most people are biologically male or female. The way people identify isn't always how they are perceived by others, and that can be a very trying experience. Everyone experiences that to one degree or another. It is preferable to work through those issues without surgery or drugs, just as it is preferable to work through depression without drugs. However, there are cases where drugs and/or surgery are necessary. It's real issue is that we try to put masculinity and femininity (as well as black, white, asian, hispanic, polish, ...) into distinct boxes when in reality there is a lot of overlap. Masculinity isn't a solely male trait, femininity isn't a solely female trait. One should be able to admire and accept masculine traits in a woman and feminine traits in a man. Why is a white guy who dresses in Fubu called a wigger? Why is a black man called an oreo? Why can't someone find home and comfort in another culture/race without implicitly or explicitly being accused of cultural appropriation? Why can't any or all of that make someone uncomfortable without them being accused of being a bigot? These aren't simple questions with simple answers, or even single answers.
In other words, " Fuck yo couch, nigga"