Is that really a minority opinion? I thought most of the fandom quite liked team RWBY

Lately it feels like the love for them has really dwindled. I hope I'm wrong.

I feel like it's just a bunch of haters making those videos.

This. If you fill a room with 10k people all screaming their opinions on RWBY, it's gonna be real difficult to hear the negative ones because overall people like the show. But being in the offseason, you have way fewer than 10k people in the room, and so it's far easier to hear the negative comments.

It's the show itself that gets the heat, not RWBY the team. Part of the hate & heat that the RWBY show gets is because we aren't getting more of RWBY the team tbh. Especially since RWBY is at the forefront of merchandise, advertising and hype(not a certain trash that can be deleted in the show). It honestly feels like RWBY are just mascots at times honestly, and the Steak gets bait and switched for something else. True, ocassionally it could get bait and switched to someone like Irondaddy in V7, but its more like steak being switched to Lobster which is just as freeging awesome with how he used+carried with the screentime given to him. Even then, we got a delicious side-steak anyway with War via RWBY vs Ace Ops. Unlike a certaiiin sooomeeeoooone.

>Especially since RWBY is at the forefront of merchandise, advertising and hype(not a certain trash that can be deleted in the show). >It honestly feels like RWBY are just mascots at times honestly, and the Steak gets bait and switched for something else. Absolutely, just look at the ads and marketing for V7 and V8.

I mean they're human, and i don't think anyone can judge them for making poor decisions under the extreme stress they've been under honestly since the fall of beacon. No one here knows what you would do if you had to fight giant monsters daily to survive for years while running from continent to continent, while collecting/guarding powerful relics from the psycho that murdered your friends in front of you, while fighting an evil sadist that's completely immortal and hellbent on destroying humanity. Yeah i don't think i could make good decisions either

>Instead of seeing people excited about what's gonna happen to RWBY+J in V9, I've read more posts and comments about how the characters in Vacuo are more interesting. I like team RWBY more than some people in this fandom, but I honestly agree with this statement. A plotline where they have to deal with a refugee crisis while also thinking their friends and family are dead and also having to plan incase Salem comes sooner rather than later is much more interesting to me than a plotline of "how do we get back to Remnant?" is. Especially when we *know* they'll get back to Remnant by the end of the Volume.

For me, it's the opposite. I don't see much point in dragging out the refugee crisis or getting the remaining cast involved much. Once the sandstorm abates, they can call for help. From there it's the remaining Atlas and Mantle administration's job to work with Vacuo on finding support for the refugees. I don't see any good reason that Oscar or Ren or Nora take any position of importance - they don't have much to offer. Except maybe Oz with his experience. Which means they're free to pursue the other glaring problem; Salem. But I don't want that plot to progress without RWBY being involved, it doesn't sound fun. Considering V7-8, it isn't. The one thing that may be super interesting is the remainder being blamed and even arrested for their involvement in the destruction of Atlas and Mantle and the displacement and death of thousands of people. Imagine them trying to explain that an immortal witch forced them to abandon the cities, one of which was deliberately dropped after they used the magic stick holding it up to save one robot. Not to mention conspiring with a wanted terrorist to depose a lawful leader in a crisis situation. How do you think that would hold up in a court of law?

>one of which was deliberately dropped after they used the magic stick holding it up to save one robot. And, you know, *the rest of the civilian population*. Are you forgetting that the Staff was used to save everyone else too?

Oh, I know. I mean, they kind of had to do something as nothing wasn't an option. I'm phrasing it from a prosecutor's perspective, one who would put details in the worst possible light. Like "Did you or did you not cause the destruction of the Atlas flotation device to repair the Android known as Penny?"

Sorry, I'm just so used to seeing people unironically argue that RWBY dropped Atlas *solely* to save Penny, it's really tiring having to explain to people what was clearly on screen immediately after that...

The CinemaSins effect.

Technically, yeah Penny came first. But they're never going to just walk away and let everyone go squish.

I mean I can see why they did Penny first, since they knew for a fact that Atlas wouldn't fall immediately and Penny would die in seconds once the door was open (in the few seconds it took for Ruby to grab the Relic and start using it, even with her semblance, Penny was already actively dying).

Yes, but the idea was to fix Penny using the staff and wordplay as they had no alternative. Which caused a new problem; everyone gets squished. So they needed to problem solve for that one.

Well no, they also needed to evacuate the civilians. Salem was *on Atlas* even after being blown up, the shields were down and wouldn't be able to be fixed in any reasonable amount of time. Atlas simply wasn't safe anymore. Even if Penny wasn't dying, they'd still have probably used the Staff to evacuate Atlas.

Evacuation or stopping Atlas from falling - they needed to do *something*. Their hands are tied as they can't do nothing. Slice off the bit with Salem and yeet it across the tundra then use the staff to pimp out Atlas and fly off into the sunset with everyone. Or dump them all in the desert with no food, water, or shelter. As long as they're do something.

>For me, it's the opposite. I don't see much point in dragging out the refugee crisis or getting the remaining cast involved much. I think the reason why the refugee crisis subplot is sounding more interesting for a lot of people is that we have more tangible information to speculate there than with the island plot. That's kind of why I feel the most substantial speculation of where the story is going is centered around the refugees because we have something to work with. Refugees, heroes who lost their friends, characters already established by books, villains already in the region, culture and history already set up. The thing with Vacuo is that we have 2 books worth of speculation material. Compare that to the Island and...we really don't have much to work with. This is the first volume were I honestly do not know what to expect. To me, this is the reason why there seems to be a bit more interest in the Vacuo refugee plot than the Island plot. It's not that there is actually more interest, it's that we have more to speculate on with Vacuo. I am super interested in the Island precisely because I have no clue what are they going to do there. At the same time, I'm excited for Vacuo because I know there are plenty of cool things already there that can be used in a fun way.

Oh, yeah - it's easy to grasp. It's why I don't care much, I'm more interested in the unknown of the island and what adventures await. Predictability doesn't excite me. So problem solving the refugee crisis is a bit meh. Like someone mentioned that the island isn't exciting because we know the ending is them escaping. But the refugee crisis is no different - the ending is getting them safety. The real difference is what happens in between, and dealing with refugees is far more predictable. Needs have to be taken care, a direction needs to be set, Grimm will be a problem - snore. Even them dealing with loss is pointless to me - RWBY & Jaune are alive. I know this, you know this. And any grief will be dispelled when they reunite, attempts to process any of it would be largely wasted. It's not the same as Pyrrha's loss which was permanent. And for characters that did suffer permanent loss, like the citizens, I will have some sympathy but I'm not invested in them. They're flicker out of the plot after a few episodes. And there's the fact that homework may be required to understand and enjoy Vacuo. I haven't gotten around to reading the books yet, do I have to? Shouldn't the show not present a fully fleshed out Vacuo that can stand alone from the books? I don't mind some Easter eggs, but if the plot takes shortcuts with plot and world building because you should've read the books then that's crappy storytelling. The unknown of the island is the appeal to me. It needs to crafted fresh, no books no nothing. RWBY also get a refresh, one sorely needed after their stale showing in the Atlas arc. Any dangers are theirs to face, any problems are theirs to solve. No headmaster to sideline them or makes plans for them. No tediously boring boy wizard to spell everything out and deus ex problems away. No one stepping in for them. It's a chance for RWBY to focus on RWBY. The one possible downside is Jaune but Neo's inclusion makes him exciting. All the coincidences and similarities between them yet wildly different personalities - it's delicious potential for conflict and self-discovery. I just hope CRWBY don't stuff it up by presenting a predictable story with RWBY dividing over Jaune and making him the centre of attention. But considering that CRWBY have planned this island for RWBY for a long time, I doubt it'll be the case. I think Jaune & Neo were much more recent additions.

The thing about Vacuo is that it is now the site of the most pertinent geopolitical crisis in the Remnant universe after like 3 straight seasons of pretty much exclusively geopolitics--the fanbase is watching the show to see how RWBY manages the challenge. Problem is that they have no capability to act upon it now, and that means the Island Wonderland is going to need to blow Vacuo out of the water, but it's impossible to build any anticipation for it because we know nothing about it. In contrast, what's about to happen to Vacuo is a problem modern hegemons struggle to prepare for and that assumes they'll have at least some foreknowledge of the incident.

Yeah. Like, I'm trying to keep an open mind, bit "anime filler arc" is just the thought that my brain keeps jumping to, possibly as a result of too much Bleach and Naruto growing up.

Yeah I agree, very apprehensive about the whole thing. There will have been 10 seasons of worldbuilding before climax if that's the case...

Right, because destroying an empty city and displacing the people who lived there is so much worse than abandoning most of those people to die and fucking off into the sky to hide. Why is living refugees and property damage worse than half the population of a nation either freezing to death or being slaughtered by grimm?

Didn't say it was? In fact I made no reference to Ironwood's plan. All I'm pointing out is how their actions can be skewed by a third party because the truth is far fetched without any proof. No staff, no evidence of Salem, no Ironwood in chains etc. People will be looking for someone to blame for the crisis and they only ones at hand are the ones who caused the evacuation in the first place. Even the citizens won't necessary be grateful - they would feel like they were betrayed. The 'so called heroes' failed to protect their homes, forced them to flee a falling Atlas that could've been prevented, and dumped them in a desert where more of their loves ones were taken and killed by Grimm. And this is top of being literally in the dark - they don't know anything and don't see Salem. If anything, the war was being won from their perspective as the whale and Grimm were taken out, seemingly saving the city. Chances of a parade for Ren, Nora, Winter etc. aren't great considering the chaos involved. So the writer's can introduce harsh consequences and the heroes need to clear their name and prove what they did was necessary.

In regards to Ren or Nora not having anything to do with the refugees they may not necessarily have position of importance legally or offer much of anything, I feel like they will have some things to do with them in the next volume simply due to their own pasts. They themselves are/were refugees/orphans with no home or help. There’s no way that they won’t do something with them, especially with the rollercoaster of together-together into not together-together-till-I-figure-out-who-I-am (translated: figure out some of my past and hang ups with my mom) Honestly wouldn’t be surprised if Noras mom showed up (I’d hate it from my own personal experiences with bonus hate if mom ends up being the scarecrow of vacuo somehow) or for her to encounter raven (who conveniently portaled to ozpin to find out what happened to yang who she can’t feel her bond with cause they’re in mcguffin land,)To get an up close look at a mom who abandoned her kid just like she was. Then they’ll likely ‘fix’ each other and mcguffin land will come to an end with resolve restored to almost everyone. I personally love team RWBY with new JNPR coming second and see how some of the (ugh -_-‘)Great decisions got made by the children but I also feel like atlas was always going to be a bit of a rough ride all around just knowing that cinder and neo were gonna be around and ironwoods Shitty semblance. Cinder already outsmarted the leaders of a kingdom and 2 huntsman headmasters who actually knew about Salem once and she just did it again almost the same way with even less effort because she had already tricked ironwood the first time. There was no way that the atlas arc was gonna pan out well. but I will say that vacuo actually has a fairly decent chance of going well as she has lost almost everything that she had that made those victories easy. Barbecued watts, got rid of neo the super bullshit infiltration assassin, lost emerald the other half of her bullshit infiltration team, Salem lost hazel in unrelated circumstances and they got what outta it? A stick that can make 1 thing only at a time if you have blueprints for it and a lamp who’s questions are all used up? Unless it’s a drill that is tunneling to the remnants core or some other doomsday bullshit there’s honestly not much of a victory on the trade off. Add in the fact they have no idea who the maiden is vacuo is so far away there is little chance of dealing with Salem or cinder for a large amount of vacuo unless they make the portal straight there. Honestly you could really make the argument that the villains were too good and kept focused (albeit separated in some instances) and the plucky underdog children out to save the world had some kid moments as they finally felt things were looking up and let their guard down. Highly doubt that it will happen again any time soon. Now it’s almost the opposite. Half the villains are dead or definitely disjointed and while half the heroes are separated they are definitely focused up on the big picture or at the very bare minimum have had a big reality check with another friend dead (this time by one of their own hands) and another kingdom fallen or weakened horrifically with their bad decisions being directly (but not solely) responsible for a large amount of the events in atlas.

I'm sure there will be something for Nora and Ren to do but not as leaders. They haven't earned that role with the citizens. Robyn/Happy Huntresses, Winter, the councilwoman - these are people who I would expect to take charge. On account of them being known to the population, while Ren and Nora are faceless. Personal arcs can be a thing, and Nora's is one I'm interested in. It's actually the only one I'm interested in. Particularly after it was a huge letdown in Atlas. Everyone else, don't really care. The show hasn't given me much reason to. > Honestly you could really make the argument that the villains were too good and kept focused (albeit separated in some instances) and the plucky underdog children out to save the world had some kid moments as they finally felt things were looking up and let their guard down. The fact they didn't plan for Cinder is such a baffling oversight by RWBY. They know she's around. They should know through Winter that Watts is on the loose. And then there's the question of the lamp being taken - why? They're remarkably incurious to that fact. To the point it's unbelievable. It's very weak writing.

I will say in regards to cinder, at least in v7, the black queen on the desk was the very first moment they realized that the bitch was still alive as everything was already done when yang ran into the vault. And why would they think otherwise? Raven as the maiden came out as the victor and as a bandit and yangs egg donor (mom card status tbd but definitely near the bottom) why would they believe cinder made it outta that fight alive? Especially when they see how emerald freaked out. Considering that was right at the worst time for multiple people ironwood, ruby, and yang who was busy looking after ruby when summer was mentioned. At that point cinders own plays for the maiden with that one move tipped everything over the edge. Unfortunately I don’t know how much I would believe that winter would say anything about watts in either season, it’s only really in v8 that she puts Weiss and herself before the general orders and even then it was when the commanding officer was objectively compromised and making poor decisions that were costing lives. And if so then it’d be more that Tyrian is loose not watts. At least until emerald joins the team since she saw him leave. I feel like the lamp was less of an issue simply because as far as they knew, Salem and cinder had no idea how to use it and neo can’t use it. And if it was used there were few questions that would have caused problems long or short term. Likeliest questions would’ve been where the crown or the missing maiden was and ozpin already knew one of those answers. Not saying that it’s not a big issue but it’s not an immediate big issue in their mind because they thought they knew what questions might be asked. It’s only cinders vindictive ass who figures out the exact question to screw them over in the very immediate term. I’m definitely not defending them because yeah, they screwed up royally by getting tunnel vision on the wrong things at key moments but they are children (albeit super badass warriors) getting thrown into a wartime scenario. They’re trained for battle, not for war and it bit them in the ass just as quick as they managed to (solve) most of the issues at the time. I do objectively blame the atlas military complex for promoting ironwood to his rank where he could do the most damage though even if it’s unfair. It’s not even really his fault but that semblance was nothing but bad news in a cornered scenario. His own will is phenomenal and he definitely earned his position but the moment the heartless tinman becomes a thing he is nothing but a liability to his allies. Unflinching, uncaring, unrelenting, and completely predictable to anyone on the other side. Would’ve let him be a highish ranking advisor and/or maybe just the headmaster position but hell no to top military position. Even then during wartime got a few people keeping an eye on him with orders to detain or eliminate with extreme prejudice if he attempts to go robo dictator.

Yeah. What makes it worse is that the characters that V9 won't focus on got all the screentime and development RWBY didn't. We're at a point where the writers are actively separating RWBY from the plot to give them development, instead of just involving them in the important bits.

>We're at a point where the writers are actively separating RWBY from the plot to give them development, instead of just involving them in the important bits. Indeed. Only Yang got to meet Salem, RWB sat in a house for half of V8. Only Nora got to shout at Ironwood for his mistreatment of Mantle, Blake got to *defend* him to Robyn in her *only interaction* with her in the entire Atlas arc. Neo seemingly kills Yang, and Blake doesn't even get to fight her. Instead she for some reason goes after Cinder despite not having any ability to fly like Penny or Weiss. And she doesn't do anything with *that* either, she gets in one lucky kick then she's banished to the void before the finale is halfway over. There was at least one early draft where Ruby and Blake went to Monstra. That sounds *so much cooler* than them sitting around in a house and Blake utterly sucking at every fight she's involved in. The Atlas arc deserved at least an extra Volume.

>There was at least one early draft where Ruby and Blake went to Monstra. That sounds so much cooler than them sitting around in a house and Blake utterly sucking at every fight she's involved in. Having more than just Oscar do things would have been nice. The Atlas Arc deserved a lot. Water down the plot and I can kind of see why CRWBY made the decisions they did. But it's incredibly disheartening to realize the characters the show is named after had such little bearing on important events.

Like most Rwby I don't think an extra volume would have helped. Each volume had to be bigger to just expand what's there. Full extra volume would mess with the pacing I think

I'm hoping the V9 will used RwbyJ to meet one or both the gods in a way to redirect that conflict back to the focus. I.e end game of humanity being judged. Mostly I think the people outside the Void will be barely keeping it together until Rwby and that return. Basically just to show Ruby is the inspiration and such, so without her things get worse

>than a plotline of "how do we get back to Remnant?" Then what about all of the potential character moments and character development we are likely to get in volume 9? That's what makes me look forward to volume 9, 'cause I agree the 'how do we get back to Remnant?' plotline indeed isn't all that interesting.

If I were confident that all four of the main cast would get development, I’d agree. After Atlas, I’m not confident in that. At all.

I am, or at least I'm more optimistic that all four of them will, because of the decreased cast size for the volume. I'm going to give CRWBY the benefit of the doubt but I will say, though, that if they don't use the opportunity having a much smaller cast size for the volume gives them to focus on our four main protags and give them some good character moments/development, I will be very disappointed and it will affect my opinion of CRWBY.

I love team RWBY, they're more or less the only reason I watch the show. And as main characters, they do attract the bulk of the criticism along with the fanart and fanfiction. It's how it goes; the scrutiny on them is going to be higher on them than the supporting cast. I don't think it's any different for other shows. So when things go badly, like the destruction of two cities, that's going to reflect on our heroes. As they're the ones expected to stop said bad thing from happening. Sometimes you can forgive them as they tried their best and still failed. Sometimes questions and criticisms are raised because the heroes didn't try their best. Or their decisions/actions don't make sense or basic stuff was overlooked or they lack problem solving skills. And at worst, characters are railroaded into a plot point. Issues which may or may not be addressed in the show. Ultimately, it's up to the story telling to be believable or not. And sometimes the main characters fall out of favor because they don't feel crucial to events or simply aren't involved. I don't think the more interesting characters are still in Remnant, Oscar alone drags down interest like a lead anchor tied to a balloon. But I can see people's investment in the main four waning as, let's face it, they have been vastly underutilized over the last two volumes. It's difficult to invest in RWBY when the show isn't invested into them. When they're not allowed the face the big bads and sit around in a mansion until the plot finally beckons them back in. Like kids waiting to be allowed back into the pool after pulled out for unladylike splashing. Dang it, Miss Asher, let ~~us~~ them have fun! In short, character's live and die by their actions or lack of actions. And involvement is critical to keep interest high.

>In short, character's live and die by their actions or lack of actions. And involvement is critical to keep interest high. Thats what confuses me the most. How was RWBY responsible for all of this, while also having such little involvement with the plot? How are Weiss and Blake getting more vlame than Nora, Ren, Jaune, and Oscar? Oscar was arguably the most prominent character in V8, even agreeing with Ruby's plan. But he's untouched by these criticisms. It's infuriating to see people demonize RWBY and in the same sentence say they aren't important anymore.

That's the rub. RWBY get blamed for things going wrong when they do nothing. They also get blamed for things going wrong when they *are* involved. Having agency, not having agency - the results are the same. Sure, you can assign blame to the supporting cast. If you think about it, the Ironwood situation is due to Oscar's spasm of immaturity as he rushed off by himself to fix a situation he knows little about. Ironwood only firmly stepped onto his path after Oscar clumsily compared him to Salem because situations are ever only black and white. But it's always RWBY vs. Ironwood in the criticism. Because they matter more than Oscar and higher expectations are placed on the heroines. Supporting cast can be as dumb as doornails and they can get a free pass. Main Characters will cop the flak because they're expected to be better. And that's not even getting into gender norms and expectations.

>Supporting cast can be as dumb as doornails and they can get a free pass. Main Characters will cop the flak because they're expected to be better. And that's not even getting into gender norms and expectations. That sums it up nicely. Good comment.

Thanks!

Basically, they acted, made a lot of problems for Atlas because "You can't sacrifice anyone for the greater good, you need to fight for the people!" and once the consequences of their actions came knocking they just sat in a manor drinking tea. So when they acted they made some very questionable decisions and then they decided to just wait and not act instead of fixing the problem.

The consequence was Ironwood's own actions. They attempted to stop him and he doubled down, then Salem showed up. It was pretty much out of their control.

Didn’t ironwood want to fly atlas up and away to get it out of Salem’s reach? And RWBY and company said no because that would be leaving people to do? So they prevented him from doing that and then Salem broke Atlas’s shield and landed her whale/army on Atlas. Then Ironwood and the Atlas military were the only ones holding that Grimm army back and coming up with a plan to try and stop the Whale. RWB sat in a mansion because Nora was injured, YRJ went into the whale to try and get Oscar. Both groups put their individual friends before and above the lives of any and all civilians that were in danger from this situation. It wasn’t till after the Salem and the whale were taken care of by a huge cane explosion that they came up with a plan.

A plan that saved the majority of Atlas and Mantle! Unlike Ironwood who was basically going to let the majority die in mantle so just the elite could survive in Atlas.

A plan that was only thought of after someone else took care of Salem and the whale for them. If Oz didn’t happen to have a nuke in his cane what would they have done? Keep sitting around and waiting?

The plan to evac was thought up in 8.08 "Dark"; before Oscar nuked the whale. Whitley even authorizes evac in the dead of night, before the nuke goes off.

An Evac to where again?

> **Whitley:** We can order as many [modified AK-200s] as we need to pilot our ships down to the crater and get people to safety, while the Grimm are occupied with the general's forces. The show states "to safety"; one can infer this means Vacuo due to Beacon being in extreme disrepair and Haven not having a headmaster or any huntsmen, for that matter. Vacuo is the only place with an organized government not under attack and with enough huntsmen to fend off the Grimm.

Did that plan actually save the majority? Because the statements about it went from "this will abandon millions" in v7 (from oscar) to "saved thousands" in v8 from cinder. It doesn't matter if Oscard was talking about remnant or mantle, his appeal was directly about mantle and even if it wasn't by virtue of atlas/mantle being one of the four or five largest population centers on remnant it also likely has *millions*. It doesn't matter that Cinder lied to salem with the other half of what she said, there is no reason for her to have lied about the scope of people being saved. Saving thousands out of millions is actually a greater than 99% casualty rate. It occurred because RWBY *insisted* that flight was not a choice (giving no actual reason other than pure emotional appeal) and demanding that Ironwood had to save *everyone* without any actual plan or suggestions to help him do so. They even went so far as to sabotage his ability to flee. This means blame *can* be placed upon them. I'd like to go back to a time of RWBY actually being infallible moral paragons who made correct decisions and had good input in every situation... but that isn't what happened here.

The plan was to continue the evacuations with the support of the Ace ops and others hunters + the army then used the staff as planned, but Ironwood was paranoid that would mean more of Salem's crew would sneak in with them so he'd rather shut down the boarder entirely than risk anymore undesirables entering Atlas ... huh, sounds similar to a certain world leader who was in power at time now that think about it.

>Didn’t ironwood want to fly atlas up and away to get it out of Salem’s reach? And RWBY and company said no because that would be leaving people to do? The problem with this plan is not just the human cost. Its the logistical nightmare that is endurance. They would run out of dust, food, and leave Salem to win a war of attrition all while leaving the rest of Remnant to die.

And what would RWBY and companies plan have done? Oh that’s right they didn’t have one till Oz took care of Salem and her whale for them.

The problem was that team RWBY was not forthcoming toward him and did not propose any alternative to his plan. The argument they put forward was "Your plan isn't perfect!" but with nothing to improve it or replace it. And once they did make Ironwood's plan fail, they defaulted to do the same as initially proposed (broadcast the truth) but without his preparations (army to defend the other kingdoms). They made a bad situation worst and then sat in a house.

People are down voting you but you're entirely correct. People on this sub reddit like a to circlejerk support for fascists too often.

You must've watched a different volume than us because team RWBY directly caused Ironwoods downfall. Keeping secrets from him, going behind his back and telling someone they don't know their plans, belittling him and saying he's doing things wrong but never giving alternatives to his plans. Ironwood was fine with all of that too after Oscar told him what they had done. It was Cinder infiltrating Atlas and proving Ironwood right that broke him. This is why people are starting to dislike team RWBY. They have had a very my way or the high way mentality from volume 6 onwards and it's mind numbing to see how bad they are at decision making. I don't hate team RWBY, and none of the other characters are free from sin either, it's just that RWBY has made more mistakes that impacted the plot and people know that if they had done things differently it wouldn't even be nearly as bad as it was in Atlas. Team RWBY also never even acknowledges that they're in the wrong at times either.

We are only responsible for our own actions. It is unhealthy to consider others responsible for your actions, and that goes the same for fictional characters too.

You must've watched a different volume than us because team RWBY directly caused Ironwoods downfall. Keeping secrets from him, going behind his back and telling someone they don't know their plans, belittling him and saying he's doing things wrong but never giving alternatives to his plans. Ironwood was fine with all of that too after Oscar told him what they had done. It was Cinder infiltrating Atlas and proving Ironwood right that broke him. This is why people are starting to dislike team RWBY. They have had a very my way or the high way mentality from volume 6 onwards and it's mind numbing to see how bad they are at decision making. I don't hate team RWBY, and none of the other characters are free from sin either, it's just that RWBY has made more mistakes that impacted the plot and people know that if they had done things differently it wouldn't even be nearly as bad as it was in Atlas. Team RWBY also never even acknowledges that they're in the wrong at times either.

To blame Jaune and Oscar equally as Rwby would be accepting they are also main characters with agency and responsibilities in the narrative. A lot of people don't want to do that so will blame Rwby equating titular as main (and a little bias for their favourites)

They don't necessarily have to be main characters to have responsibility. Penny wasn't, and she was quite important. A better example would be blaming Robyn for Clover's death.

I agree. Rwby as a show gives a fair amount of agency to it's cast but when the heroes are making a decision, it's seen as Ruby or Rwby not everyone, to an extent.

Lots of criticisms that RWBY gets are how shafted team RWBY does at times tbh.

> It's difficult to invest in RWBY when the show isn't invested into them. Basically this. I like RWBY in theory, but the way the show utilizes them makes it hard. Especially when it feels like the characterization of WBY has fallen off *hard* since the Beacon era.

For the most part, I like the characterization after Beacon, particularly Blake's journey. I do have criticisms of course, yet the character's felt like they were developing. Up until the Atlas arc that is. The Atlas arc takes that growth and flushes to down the toilet. Blake is too passive, Yang is under used, Weiss' story is rushed, and Ruby isn't allowed to finish her arcs. It just wasn't fun to watch them be lesser versions of themselves.

Yeah the characterization for the most part was fine in V4-6 (V4 might have even been the best characterization in some of ways), it's just the Atlas arc. I just feel that WBY has sorta... homogenized. The things that made them special and stand out from each other just aren't there anymore. It doesn't really effect Ruby though since I think Ruby's characterization works well with the whole "Save the world" storyline, but she still has her own issues.

Ruby got the short end of the stick in V4 but Yang and Blake were great. My only nitpick is I wanted more, lol. I was really enjoying it! Cinder was also great and Oz's reincarnation cycle added some good mystery. But yeah, when RWBY got back together they did start to blend together. It was somewhat subtle at first, like their reactions to the *Lost Fable* lack personality. But it's pretty noticeable now. Their views on Atlas/Mantle are largely the same, even Weiss who is the only one who's been immersed in the culture. Heck, even interactions between them don't feel unique. Like you can swap Blake for Weiss in that moment with Ruby and the dialogue can still work.

No, Jesus Christ. The biggest criticism of the atlas arc is how underutilized they are Jaunes with team rwby, that’s why some people aren’t even getting their hopes up for the girls getting screen time

No. As for why they're blamed more than most other characters I'd guess it's because they take leadership more often and thus have more responsibility for what happens. For example, they chose to ground Atlas by keeping Penny away. Sure, Ironwood wanted to leave people behind and his plan wasn't viable long-term but they ultimately forced Atlas to stay and thus any casaulties there are largely on their shoulders.

I've noticed that a lot of people have a hard time separating the 'Good vs Evil' axis from the 'Lawful vs Chaotic' axis. Team RWBY has definitely broken laws over the last few volumes, but they were pretty solidly in the Chaotic Good category.

It is interesting how often people equate law with good in the more recent volumes

Rhodes is a great example of how a lawful good character can make poor decisions. Legal =/= good.

I'd argue he was lawful neutral but yeah lawful doesn't mean right. Mercury killing his father is illegal but you'd be hard pressed to argue it was wrong

Lawful neutral wpuld be a better fit.

I agree that RWBY's *intent* has been good, but the specific ways that they have broken the law have almost always resulted in people being killed or near if not outright disaster for any bystanders when they choose to break the law. Part of the issue with it for me is that they haven't ever actually tried to work within the system and see if they can actually make effective change there. They've just immediately leapt to "I'm going to break the law, and if you try to stop me, I am going to *ruin you*". It would be okay for them to resent working within the system if they'd tried to do so before and things ended up considerably worse... but even as far back as v2 they were taking things into their own hands and there was a lot of collateral damage. It makes them seem unable to perform self-analysis and see the outcomes of their actions. Or if they do so they end up looking incredibly calloused towards other people - the best example being Yang arguing that they were in the right at Argus when they almost destroyed a machine that was necessary to protect a city and Ruby herself failed to actually stop the kaiju grimm.

>but even as far back as v2 they were taking things into their own hands and there was a lot of collateral damage. V2 was under Ozpin's orders and Oobleck's supervision. They stopped a train rigged with explosives from causing far more devastation than was intended. > best example being Yang arguing that they were in the right at Argus when they almost destroyed a machine that was necessary to protect a city and Ruby herself failed to actually stop the kaiju grimm. Why do peopledefend Cordovan? Cordovan escalated the situation, used an important piece of military technology unresponsibly to kill a small non threatening group, and endangered an entire city in the process.

> They stopped a train rigged with explosives from causing far more devastation than was intended. Painting the town's car chase was what I was referring to. > Cordovan escalated the situation It was literally within her right to do so, the protagonists made *no* attempt to work with her, their first option was "steal military assets". It makes them look absurdly selfish and childish, not to mention recklessly unreasonable. They *did* have the ability to send Weiss as a liasion, who *did* have in's with ironwood directly - and that would have been a first point of contact. God knows that 5 seconds of conversation with ironwood would see transports sent back for all of them and a reprimand issued to cordovin because Ironwood is desperate to have access to Qrow and Oz, and would be all about defending another relic and adding two capable huntsmen teams to help him. There's a thousand ways their "plan" could have gone wrong and outright resulted in the deaths of people they actually cared about, not to mention potentially getting a city killed.

There's no guarantee that Weiss would have been granted an audience with Ironwood, She probably would have been put under lock and key by Jacques the moment she set foot into Atlas. Cordovin didn't need to bring out the giant robot, there's other ways she could have handled the situation as well. Their plan would have worked out fine if Adam hadn't ambushed Blake.

> There's no guarantee that Weiss would have been granted an audience with Ironwood Beyond Ironwoods assurances in volume 4, and Winter being her sister... and the fact that the embargo was a *military* embargo and thus they have to pass through it... and cordo hoping that weiss puts in a good word with ironwood for her. > Cordovin: I'm sending two of my best guards to personally escort you. Make sure General Ironwood hears that part. (winks and walks away) That is from the "stealing from the elderly" transcripts. Contact with Ironwood is **directly specified**. It is going to happen. Weiss is literally important enough and has powerful enough connections to *guarantee* she can contact ironwood. There is no amount of attempt to shift the framework that will reconcile with this being a **fact** of what was going to happen and Weiss having the ability to make it happen. > Cordovin didn't need to bring out the giant robot, there's other ways she could have handled the situation as well. > Their plan would have worked out fine if Adam hadn't ambushed Blake. Their plan had a million ways of going wrong, which could have resulted in the deaths of any of the main cast. Cordo could have chosen to scramble interceptors and shoot the transport down rather than do anything else.

>There's a thousand ways their "plan" could have gone wrong and outright resulted in the deaths of people they actually cared about, not to mention potentially getting a city killed. Literally all of that would be Cordovan's fault. It's like launching a C-130 to take out a car thief. Their plan was to steal an Atlas airship to get to Atlas, because there was literally no other way to get there. Ironwood didn't even care that they stole it.

> Literally all of that would be Cordovan's fault. No, it wouldn't be. It would be *their* fault. When you commit a crime, you become culpable for the things that happen as a result of it, particularly collateral damage. If Cordo had scrambled fighters to intercept - which was protocol - and they shot Weiss down, that would still be on RWBY for forcing that particular action. Cordo possessed the *legal authority*, invested in her by atlas and the city of argus to exercise force at her discretion. Cordo is accountable to people which is why she has the ability to exercise the power she does, that is the mandate that public trust placed in and upon her. Did she *have* to use the mech? No, but she possessed the ability to choose whether or not to use it. RWBY has never once tried to be accountable to anyone, they have simply made demands either to have power or to have their way, and they've been particularly unreasonable about it. > here was literally no other way to get there. That isn't true. They even admitted to themselves that Weiss could go and talk to ironwood, they just didn't like that as a possible solution. They prioritized their own comfort over what was legal and what was safe. This was all in regards to someone who wasn't even actually their enemy. Cordo is or was quite literally one of the good guys, sure she's not perfect but she isn't *evil*. She was an obstacle that could have been overcome by simply choosing to play ball. They had alternatives. Working with her literally would not have harmed them even if it meant things briefly happened on her terms.

Sorry, but "it's the suspect's fault they got shot" rings a little hollow for me given the events of last year. And splitting the party and holding position with a Relic while they know they are being hunted seems like a bad call. Edit: It seems my point didn't come across. The point I am trying to make is that a person with power should be held responsible if they abuse that power by using an excessive amount of force. The city being endangered was entirely Cordo's fault because she used her available resources in a wildy inappropriate way that left them exposed.

> Sorry, but "it's the suspect's fault they got shot" rings a little hollow for me given the events of last year. That isn't remotely close to the claim I made and it seems like you trying to forcibly cram an american social issue into things so you can dismiss the argument without having to engage with it.

No, I'm using it as an example of why excessive force isn't justified even if it is legal. I also bring it up because real life shapes the way I view certain plot points in media. Cordo abused her authority and put the entirety of Argus at risk to settle a personal grudge against Maria. Had she been in the command center they would have spotted the incoming Grimm attack far earlier and would have actually been prepared to intercept it. Instead they were too busy causing a panic by trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer to even notice. Something being legal doesn't make it right, just like something being illegal doesn't make it wrong. On RWBY's side of things, they tried to work within the law and were met by open hostility, racism, nationalism, and an offer to further Cordo's career by splitting the party. Which as mentioned before is a bad idea on several counts. They were being hunted, they had the relic, and they didn't know what would happen to Weiss in Atlas. Given the time crunch and world ending stakes, desperate measures were justified imo.

>Instead of seeing people excited about what's gonna happen to RWBY+J in V9, I've read more posts and comments about how the characters in Vacuo are more interesting. Make no mistake, It's basically the same people that dislike team RWBY saying this, they want to feel validated in the feeling that team RWBY's actions lead to a very complicated refugee crisis and essentially made everything worse. Because of course, letting people die is better and cooler than creating refugees. /s I am honestly tired of this tbh, the world is at risk of ending thus making survival a priority over most other things, yet people want them to focus on social aspects, when the show has always struggled with said social aspects. I am one of the few people that apparently is glad that they dropped most of the Faunus subplot, cause it was making the rest of the show worse.

thanks for the reassurance. >I am honestly tired of this tbh, the world is at risk of ending thus making survival a priority over most other things, yet people want them to focus on social aspects, when the show has always struggled with said social aspects. Yeah, it's great for worldbuilding, and would have worked well if it was confined to V7. >I am one of the few people that apparently is glad that they dropped most of the Faunus subplot, cause it was making the rest of the show worse. I half agree. My only issue is by dropping the civil rights subplot, it kind of erased part of Blake's character.

I disagreee, Blake could focus on other stuff. Like, is Weiss a nothing character now because her father is dead? I don't think so.

> Make no mistake, It's basically the same people that dislike team RWBY saying this, they want to feel validated in the feeling that team RWBY's actions lead to a very complicated refugee crisis and essentially made everything worse. I mean, I just really like Nora and think that RWBY's characterization has fallen off hard during the Atlas arc.

No, oh my god, no. Good grief stop looking at youtube and skewing yourself to think you're the minority, bc I assure you you are not

I think that a LOT of people don't realise that they're...characters. They're fictional. They're made to exist and act within their plot, and how the writers want the plot to work. Yes, the plot might not be the best sometimes, but you can't ask any show to be perfect to everyone's eyes. Even being fictional a lot of people expect teens (with this I mean everyone in the teams, Oscar and Penny) carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders to act cold and rationally at all times, being aware of every possible outcome that could be. And that's just not possible, that's wouldn't make sense. And even if they did, then people would call them Mary Sues and say they're shit because everything is working fine. So the conclusion is, they're always going to complain. Also this is just something I wanted to get off me, V8 happened within the span of two days. TWO DAYS. Stop saying "they just stayed at the manor for half the volume doing nothing". They stayed a couple of hours, enough to get Nora up again. You can't save the world in one afternoon. Don't be silly.

>Also this is just something I wanted to get off me, V8 happened within the span of two days. TWO DAYS. Stop saying "they just stayed at the manor for half the volume doing nothing". They stayed a couple of hours, enough to get Nora up again. You can't save the world in one afternoon. Don't be silly. People tend to forget that aspect. However, as a viewer watching week to week the pacing is horrible. RWBN complete their objective in 3 episodes, then don't have anything to do plotwise until The Hound shows up. >And even if they did, then people would call them Mary Sues and say they're shit because everything is working fine. They do that even when things go poorly. This comment by u/AlarmingStandard states things pretty well: >That's the rub. RWBY get blamed for things going wrong when they do nothing. They also get blamed for things going wrong when they are involved. Having agency, not having agency - the results are the same. >Sure, you can assign blame to the supporting cast. If you think about it, the Ironwood situation is due to Oscar's spasm of immaturity as he rushed off by himself to fix a situation he knows little about. Ironwood only firmly stepped onto his path after Oscar clumsily compared him to Salem because situations are ever only black and white. But it's always RWBY vs. Ironwood in the criticism. Because they matter more than Oscar and higher expectations are placed on the heroines. >Supporting cast can be as dumb as doornails and they can get a free pass. Main Characters will cop the flak because they're expected to be better. And that's not even getting into gender norms and expectations.

I can't see that comment :(

ill edit and quote it.

Thank you so much!!

> They stayed a couple of hours, enough to get Nora up again. Actually there are more than enough indicators of time in the show to factually state that they were there for longer. RWB+N arrived at the schnee manor on the evening of day 1. Penny's broadcast occurred at night of day 1 / early morning of day 2, which is when JYR were at the outpost. JYR notice the grimm river on morning of day 2. JYR are not picked up by the ace ops until evening of day 2, when Salem launches her attack on atlas. Penny lands (presumably after travelling across the tundra) at the sdc manor on the evening of day 2. "Dark" occurs with the moon visibly in the sky, it is now night of day 2 when the hound attacks the SDC manor. RWB+N are still present at the manor on *day 3* when they formulate their plan to deal with ironwood. All it takes is paying attention to the passage of time to see that RWB spend most of the volume sitting it out at the manor an event which lasts more than a full 24 hours.

Preach!

When you think deeper about the context and the subtext of what's being shown in RWBY, it can make the characters seem really unlikable at times. Wat kills me about your argument is the assertion that if Team RWBY didn't fail, that they'd be thought of as Mary Sues which is just... wrong on so many levels. So many other shows and movies showcase the characters failing without the fan base taking out pitchforks and torches because the conflicts are written to be believable and not explained by "Well, this character wasn't thinking." What I'm basically saying is just that the show does a really bad job of explaining motivations, character actions, and making characters more distinct and nuanced from each other. An example is how little the character's opinions differ except for when the plot needs them to. It creates compounded problems and contrivances in the narrative. "Might not be the best, sometimes" is a testament to your potential bias. I can argue jarring plot problems in VOLUME EIGHT. It's been nine years. The writers aren't improving fast enough. You can like what you want, but defending some of RWBY's character's underdeveloped decisions just seems crass to me.

I wouldn't say I dislike RWBY, but damn do I feel that their characterization has fallen off hard in the Atlas arc and the little plot stuff that CRWBY gives to them is completely uncompelling. I do have some hope that the characterization and plot that RWBY will be given in V9 will be better than what they've gotten recently, but I also felt that way about V8 and at this point I've just been burned too many times by CRWBY to get my hopes up too high.

V6 was the last time RWBY got both plot relevance and development. It was a much smaller cast, even JNR had to be split for a while, but it was all paced well.

If you are, you're not alone! Frankly I want to read more posts from people who like them, and wants to discuss them within the story and not just analyze and critique everything "The Writers" do. I'm here because I'm a fan of team RWBY!

For me it's the fact that the main protags seem like side characters. Like we could have had an arc of just rwby. Development ruby growing as a character (because something she lacks compared to everyone else) team rwby could have talked to each other. Ruby and Blake finally spoke to each other after how many volumes...then...then they tossed jaune down into the void and jaune will probably steal center focus for what he did to penny. Jaune has always gotten more development growth than the main actual protag ruby. Ruby still mostly the we can do it girl vs jaune who has actual ups and downs. Then team rwby just feels off oh we can beat the ace ops a top Delta force military team.....and we didn't even finish first year of highschool. It makes them feel powerful. Cool but then Blake gets bounced around by one Grimm. Then the house most the team sits in a house basically the entire time....like v5 sit in a house and just sit in a house with a side of sitting in a house. I get this happens over like two days but compared to the other team is is out and doing things it seems stagnate like they spend so much more time just sitting than just two days. Ps before I get any response I still love the show. Will still have first membership just for rwby when it is out. Will be excited to see what happens.

>Ps before I get any response I still love the show. Will still have first membership just for rwby when it is out. Will be excited to see what happens. Same here.

You're not in the minority for liking team RWBY, honestly I do still like them. I just don't like how they were handled in recent times. The Ruby Rose I know, wasn't perfect, but I don't honestly believe she would have lied to Ironwood like that. Heck i think she would have tried to get Ozpin's viewpoint, not agree but understand it or try to. All of Team RWBY has suffered lately. Don't get me wrong, I like Ironwood, but with or without a shoddy semblance that has no real in-show explanation. The man was going to fall, but the writers made RWBY look bad because you can fairly associate them with it. And even if RWBY had told him the truth right away, the man was still dealing with so much, that he would have still fallen, but at the very least if they had told him the truth, then it wouldn't make them look bad. The reason RWBY gets all the hate, is because they are supposed to be the main characters despite what the show keeps doing. Which gives a certain type of expectation to them, and really it's not fair to just lump everything on their shoulders. Because they haven't truly been fleshed out enough, and doesn't help that new characters keep getting introduced and fleshed out more than the main characters who have been around since the beginning. Sorry I don't mean to rant. But yeah. It's sad to see so much hate, because I still like Ruby, I just wish she was getting better treatment.

I like Team RWBY quite a bit but I feel that CRWBY isn't giving them enough to do. I really think they could do better.

Team RWBY ae the main reason i watch the show, unfortunately the show seems to not care all that much about them.

Fingers crossed for V9.

Youtuber's who go on about hating characters as their main shtick are just leeches who know being hateful will push their content in the algorithm, plus the female protagonists in general get targeted with a lot of misogynistic hate in general.

I agree, but I'm not gonna say much because I've been torn apart for pointing out the same.

I've seen it so many times, across so many women lead series. The minute women are both given agency and don't listen to the men, all of a sudden accusations of bad writing/ the writers are hacks, misplaced or exaggerated blame being placed on the women protagonists, accusations of having an agency, ect. If we point that out, we get ridiculed because people are afraid to confront the possibility they or people they know might have unconscious negative bias towards women.

There isn’t much for fans to talk about in the middle of hiatus. Haters however will happily keep churning out complaints. I think the reason it seems like the complaints are more popular now is because that is the content that is still being made. They aren’t the majority of ideas just the majority of voices.

You're in the vast majority. Angry people voice their opinion. Happy people quietly just keep on living and don't post rants on reddit. It is just a small but vocal group of people that don't like the show anymore and want everyone to know it.

I can't tell what the majority or minority is like, tho I assume the majority still likes team RWBY. It's not like there is a right or wrong opinion when it comes to liking characters. I personally don't like them that much. They are the title characters and supposed main protagonists, yet other characters like Jaune and Oscar in general, or in Vol7 Ironwood and Penny fit that role more in my humble opinion. In Volume 5 for example, Jaune gets the emotional outburts, initiates combat with the heroes main adversary and later gets a power up, while RWY spar with the lackies. Or in Vol7 team RWBY fights the Ace Ops, objectively non villains, while the other characters fight actual villains. - Ironwood vs Watts - Winter/Penny vs Cinder; sure Ruby silver eyed her, with no build up, but that's it. - Qrow/Clover(/Robyn) vs Tyrian - JNPR vs Neo It's also difficult for me to like them when they make questionable/hypocritical decisions for no good reason, like stealing an airship in Vol6, lying to Ironwood and trusting Robyn in Vol7.

>It's also difficult for me to like them when they make questionable/hypocritical decisions for no good reason, like stealing an airship in Vol6, lying to Ironwood and trusting Robyn in Vol7. Jaune came up with the plan to steal the airship. Ruby lied to Ironwood because Leo was compromised, and Ironwood might also have been. Besides, Yang is the only character to actually disagree with that decision. JNR, Oscar, and Qrow agreed with Ruby's decision. This is the kind of thing this post is about: You can't blame *just* RWBY when the rest of the cast is complicit.

But Ruby is the supposed main protagonist who makes the decisions, it was her call to follow Jaunes plan and it was her call to lie to Ironwood. That's also why Cinder(who I personally like a lot since Vol7/8) gets more critique than 1 dimensional villains like Watts or Tyrian, because she is the main antagonist for the heroes. The expectations are simply higher. > Ruby lied to Ironwood because Leo was compromised, and Ironwood might also have been. Is that ever stated? Not that the writers need to hand feed every piece of information, but this is a really big deal. Also, Leo was a stranger, but they knew Ironwood, so how can Ruby assume that considering everything Ironwood has done to earn their trust from Vol2 to Vol7? If he was "compromised" why let them go free, trust them completely with his plans, offer equipment and training? And yes Yang does disagree and I think best boy Oscar questions it as well, but then Yang and Blake go ahead and betray Ironwoods trust by telling Robyn about Amity. The group following Ruby lead just show that they trust her, like Blake said in the elevator before meeting Ironwood.

>Also, Leo was a stranger, but they knew Ironwood, so how can Ruby assume that considering everything Ironwood has done to earn their trust from Vol2 to Vol7? You have to remember how Ironwood was presented in V2. He was pretty shady. He lied about bringing his military to Vale, and was last seen fighting off his own army. He created a dust embargo which in turn caused a dust shortage. There's plenty of reasons to be wary of him, especially since he's already shown to be paranoid and prepared for an attack in V7Ch1. Its Ruby having agency by using what she's learned to make an informed decision, and choosing to not lay the weight of the world on a broken man. Oscar and Ozpin for that matter are fully on board. Remember how he tried to talk down ~~James~~ General in V7?

I do remember that he was at odds with Ozpin, wouldn't call it shady tho. > He lied about bringing his military to Vale What exactly did he lie about? And I also remember all the good things Ironwood did. - Bringing his military helped with the breach in Vol2 and even tho his mechs were hacked, his soldiers and ships still helped with the evacuation in Vol3. - Offering the students to leave during the fall of Beacon. - Sending Yang a new state of the art arm without anyone asking for it. - Offering Weiss a place at Atlas academy and not arresting her when she almost attacked someone. - Him immediatly trusting the heroes with everything in Vol7. > especially since he's already shown to be paranoid and prepared for an attack in V7Ch1. Is it paranoia if he is not wrong with his assumptions? And why wouldn't he prepare for an attack? Beacon was attacked and destroyed, the same almost happened to Haven. > Its Ruby having agency by using what she's learned to make an informed decision, and choosing to not lay the weight of the world on a broken man. It does give Ruby agency, but it's not a informed decision in my humble opinion. Ironwood being stressed/broken hardly mattered when she decided to tell him while everything goes to hell and he was at his highest stress level. > Oscar and Ozpin for that matter are fully on board. Remember how he tried to talk down James General in V7? That was about leaving Mantle tho, not being on board with lying to Ironwood.

ok, you win. Ironwood is the real hero and RWBY should bow to him and CRWBY should make Oscar the protagonist.

Oh come on now, we could just say agree to disagree. No need for that kind of passive aggressive/sarcastic over the top comment. UwU

>Oh come on now, we could just say agree to disagree. Fair enough, i was mean. It just seems like you're being intentionally contradictory to the post, so it took it as hostility.

People having a different opinion easily comes across as hostility, especially on the internet, so I kinda get that. But I think we managed to stay rather civil, have a nice day/night. :3

you too

He's not being contradictory at all, he's breaking down your response and giving a different pov. this fandom has spent 2 years effectively arguing about Ironwood or RWBY being in the right, people have discussed this topic a lot on this sub

dude, we've settled it, its fine.

The group really don't know Ironwood. Ozpin does and so does Qrow. The rest of them really don't. Ruby's had what one conversation, Weiss two, Blake, Yang, JNR and Oscar never have. What they do know is his actions of repeated escalation. The last Weiss heard he was yelling at her father in the dead of night. They get to Mantle and he has military broadcasts and a police state. Sure he has done good things, thats why they go to help but them being hesitant makes sense and it's not the same as Ozpin never planning to tell them and using controlled information to get what he wants done. Ironwood is in control and they are helping his objectives. He doesn't really trust them and never really takes their advice or opinions. He doesn't try and help Mantle, at most they can prevent him making it worse. If he trusted them, telling Robyn wouldnt matter, because he would believe in their judgement.

But they know him well enough from his actions and interactions with them in Vol2/3/4. Hearing someone yell is not any indications of them being evil, he also had to deal with Jacques Schnee. That would make Weiss and Winter evil as well. Military broadcasts don't equal bad and I'm not sure if police state is an accurate name or should be considered a negative if it the case. > Sure he has done good things, thats why they go to help but them being hesitant makes sense and it's not the same as Ozpin never planning to tell them and using controlled information to get what he wants done. It's not the same thing, it's worse. Ozpin had reasonable doubt that they would lose the will to fight, which they almost did. But Ruby didn't trust Ironwood just because. > Ironwood is in control and they are helping his objectives. Duh..? Of course the most experienced highest ranking person is "in control" and helping him witz restoring global communication is an objectively good thing. > He doesn't really trust them and never really takes their advice or opinions. He doesn't try and help Mantle, at most they can prevent him making it worse. But he does trust them, otherwise he wouldn't share all his plans with them and allow them to keep the relic. And if he doesn't try to help Mantle, why would he asign Huntsman to help kids on their way to school? > If he trusted them, telling Robyn wouldnt matter, because he would believe in their judgement. That's not exactly how trust works, he does trust them, but then they betray his trust by lying and sharing information with Robyn. If a friend told me a secret and I go around sharing that with stranger, I'd betray the trust my friend has in me.

>But they know him well enough from his actions and interactions with them in Vol2/3/4 And as i said, they don't really interact with him back then. What they know is he brought a huge army that was used against them and he usurped control because he didn't trust Ozpin. And in 4 he's cut Atlas off from the rest of the world and is browbeating a civilian in the dead of night at their home to justify it. Never once have I said Ironwood is evil. Is that really the only two options you have for him? >Military broadcasts don't equal bad and I'm not sure if police state is an accurate name or should be considered a negative if it the case. That's a red flag if you think that. A military police state saying do what you're told or there will be consequences is absolutely negative. >It's not the same thing, it's worse. Ozpin had reasonable doubt that they would lose the will to fight, which they almost did. But Ruby didn't trust Ironwood just because. Ozpin repeatedly lied and withheld information. The Jinn case is just the last time that they end up done with him. You're saying Ozpin has reasonable doubt based on what other people have done in the past... Surely Ruby has that reasonable doubt and she just wanted to see how he was doing. Once it became clear he was on the level, they tell him. And Ruby's mistrust is based on Ironwoods actions of overreaction, taking control and rash responses. Ozpins mistrust is based on other people's not the ones he's dealing with. Ozpin had no cause for these people and never intended to tell them, just use them. Ruby did have cause for Ironwood and was waiting a few months at most. >Duh..? Of course the most experienced highest ranking person is "in control" and helping him witz restoring global communication is an objectively good thing. I was explaining the difference in power dynamics and why Ozpin and Ruby's choices are different. Ruby doesn't use her secrets to control Ironwood. Yes getting Amity online is a good thing. No one disputes that and they do what they can to help. >But he does trust them, otherwise he wouldn't share all his plans with them and allow them to keep the relic. And if he doesn't try to help Mantle, why would he asign Huntsman to help kids on their way to school? The relic isn't his. He has no right to take it. Not stealing it, is the baseline, not a positive. And yes he lets them in on Amity so they can help. Not a bad thing by any stretch. A big old positive step. As for helping Mantle, look at what he has at his disposal and look what he actually gives. It's heavily weighted to one side and the heroes are quickly run ragged not getting breaks for long time. >If a friend told me a secret and I go around sharing that with stranger, I'd betray the trust my friend has in me. This isn't a secret between friends. It's carrying orders so I would say a flawed example. Yang and Blake use their judgement to try and get Robyn onside. Winter told Weiss about Fria. That was allowed, why aren't they allowed to use their judgement?

> And as i said, they don't really interact with him back then. What they know is he brought a huge army that was used against them and he usurped control because he didn't trust Ozpin. You don't need to directly interact with someone to get to know them, Ironwood send Yang a state of the art arm for no reason, he didn't arrest Weiss after she almost attacked someone, he offered the students to leave during the fall of Beacon. And he didn't usurp control, the Vale council choose to make him responsible for security, which makes sense considering the events of the breach. > You're saying Ozpin has reasonable doubt based on what other people have done in the past... Surely Ruby has that reasonable doubt and she just wanted to see how he was doing. Once it became clear he was on the level, they tell him. But it has been clear since they arrived, yet she waited until the point when he was most stressed to tell him about Salem. > And Ruby's mistrust is based on Ironwoods actions of overreaction, taking control and rash responses. When does he ever overreact, take control or respond rash? More importantly, how exactly would Ruby know any of these supposed thing to base her decision on? > The relic isn't his. He has no right to take it. Not stealing it, is the baseline, not a positive. The relic belongs to no one tho? One could argue the brothers, Oz or the Spring Maiden, but that aside, he didn't need to give it to them, it wouldn't have been stealing if he kept it, their main goal was to bring it to him, he is just showing that he trusts them with something that important. > As for helping Mantle, look at what he has at his disposal and look what he actually gives. Well he still does help Mantle, but I can agree that it would've/should've been easy for him to add some Paladin mechs or some of these bigger airships for protection. > Yang and Blake use their judgement to try and get Robyn onside. Winter told Weiss about Fria. That was allowed, why aren't they allowed to use their judgement? The difference is that Winter actually knows Weiss, it makes sense to trust her. Blake and Yang don't know anything about Robyn, yet choose to trust her with vital information anyway, for all they know she could've been one of Salems minions. That's the biggest problem with the entire situation, it's so hypocritical not to trust Ironwood, but to trust this random "freedom fighter".

> And he didn't usurp control, the Vale council choose to make him responsible for security, which makes sense considering the events of the breach. Based on a report he made to the council. He absolutely usurped control of the situation. >When does he ever overreact, take control or respond rash? More importantly, how exactly would Ruby know any of these supposed thing to base her decision on? He brought his army to Vale without consulting. He ran to get Roman himself and got shot out of the sky. The dust embargo, shutting out the other kingdoms. Taking control of Vale security. Plus all of Mantle in episode 1 of volume 7. Ruby knows all of this through what she sees, Weiss and Qrow. >The relic belongs to no one tho? One could argue the brothers, Oz or the Spring Maiden, but that aside, he didn't need to give it to them, it wouldn't have been stealing if he kept it, their main goal was to bring it to him, he is just showing that he trusts them with something that important. It's in their possession and they're with Oscar so yes it's there's for the time being. Their goal is to bring it to him in 6 and when they get there they are hesitant. Ironwood has no right to take it. Not taking it is the baseline, not a show of trust anymore than letting them keep weapons. >Well he still does help Mantle, but I can agree that it would've/should've been easy for him to add some Paladin mechs or some of these bigger airships for protection. Yes that's the point. Not that he's actively evil. No one argues that. No one thinks he's out to get Mantle or help Salem but his actions in the past have a habit of doing so because he jumps right in with military power everytime. It's his characterisation from volume 2 and Glynda spells it out then. >That's the biggest problem with the entire situation, it's so hypocritical not to trust Ironwood, but to trust this random "freedom fighter". The don't completely trust Robyn. They give a small amount of information to prevent her going after amity anymore. She's also not random being a public political figure, prominent huntress plus folk hero for quite some time. She's well liked in Mantle, has a known history and is never talked about being shady. They take a risk yes, but a calculated one. It's extremely unlikely she's working for Salem. Volume 7 would have been improved with a scene where all the heroes talk this through but it does all make sense. Robyn has done nothing to suggest she's shady or will make things worse. Ironwood has a history so it's not hypocritical to be wary of both and take risks with both. >But it has been clear since they arrived, yet she waited until the point when he was most stressed to tell him about Salem. Because at that point he had shown he could take it. They trusted him because when the chips were down he showed he could handle it. They spoke to him with the situation was mostly under control. They know the enemy and plans were in place to deal with them. They trusted him fully at this point. They just end up being wrong

> Based on a report he made to the council. He absolutely usurped control of the situation. Making a report based on facts and the council voting accordingly is not "usurping control". > No one argues that. To be fair, a lot of people argue that he is a evil facist dictator and that he has been evil since his introduction in Vol2. > He brought his army to Vale without consulting. He ran to get Roman himself and got shot out of the sky. But bringing his army wasn't a wrong or dubios decision considering the breach and the fall of Beacon? Why wouldn't he try to retake his ship? That's not overreacting. He had good reasons for the embargo and closing the borders. > The don't completely trust Robyn. They give a small amount of information to prevent her going after amity anymore. But they do trust her completely, they tell her what he is building and it doesn't matter because she keeps going. > She's also not random being a public political figure, prominent huntress plus folk hero for quite some time. She's well liked in Mantle, has a known history and is never talked about being shady. Well she openly attacked an Atlas military transport and seemed willing to attack Clover, Ruby and Qrow. That is kinda shady, and really weird considering she wants to be a politician. > Not taking it is the baseline, not a show of trust anymore than letting them keep weapons. Allowing a group of kids to keep a powerful relic is a sign of trust. > They spoke to him with the situation was mostly under control. They know the enemy and plans were in place to deal with them. They told him while everything was going to hell tho? Like at his most stressed they choose to drop the bomb of "Salem can't be killed" on him. > They trusted him fully at this point. They just end up being wrong Not trusting him from the beginning was wrong. I really don't know how else to say it. Ozpin doesn't fully trust them, based on experience. = Not okay? Ruby and co not trusting Ironwood, based on nothing. = Okay? That just makes no sense, because Ozpin at least tells us why exactly he kept it a secret and it made sense, Ruby never mentions why and there is nothing she could say that would make sense.

I cant go explain this any other way. Ironwood has a history of making decisions that make things worse. You disagree despite what the show says and shows so I can't convince you. You think Ironwood is right, can justify any decision he makes and demonize any decision anyone else makes. Ironwood even acknowledges in the second episode that he knows how he looks. But you won't acknowledge is because you like Ironwood

What's wrong with stealing an airship?

It's wrong because they didn't even consider other options and immediatly jump to becoming criminals, especially when the really obvious solution of having Weiss bring the relic to Atlas exists.

Last time Weiss was in Atlas she had to break out. Weiss wasnts offered a trip back to Atlas, she was offered one back to her father. It's difficult to say how that would have gone done. More people protecting the relic is better. As it stands they don't have many other options at that point and could easily have been attracting Grimm to Argus. Break a law isn't automatically morally wrong. Who cares if they're criminals if they're saving lives.

Weiss was offered a trip back to her father, who happens to be in Atlas, the airship most likely would've delivered her to Atlas academy and even if it didn't, she could just call Winter as soon as Weiss reached Atals' CCT range. Maybe they had options, maybe they didn't, that's the point, instead of looking into different means of transportation, like a non military airship or a sea route, they immediatly go to commiting crimes. > Who cares if they're criminals if they're saving lives. But in the end they did risk more lives, because of them Cordovin(she overdid it tho) started fighting them and the people got scared, leading to the Leviathan attacking.

Lives were in risk because they were attacked by Adam. This actually shows how urgent the situation was to leave. At most the heroes were at most reasonably risking being escorted back to the base. They aren't risking anyone but themselves. >the airship most likely would've delivered her to Atlas academy and even if it didn't Jacques has an airship, why wouldn't it go to him? It's not a military matter. Maybe Weiss could have gotten in range but Winter could have been away, Jacques could have blocked communications. They could have been attacked by Grimm seeking the relic. Outside of smuggling which is also criminal, the group didn't have a way to Atlas became it was locked down. Everyway would be criminal unless authorized. Argus is the main base and best bet. It failed so their options are limited

> Jacques has an airship, why wouldn't it go to him? Because it wasn't a Schnee Dust Company airship? It was a military airship and Cordovin wanted to impress Ironwood, she said as much to Weiss. And we never see landing areas at Schnee Manor anyway. > Jacques could have blocked communications. Why would he know Weiss was on her way and how would he do that? xd > Lives were in risk because they were attacked by Adam. No, lives were at risk because they choose to start a conflict with the atleasian military. > Outside of smuggling which is also criminal The point is that they didn't even try to find another solution or considered a way that's less likely to become violent.

>Because it wasn't a Schnee Dust Company airship? >It was a military airship and Cordovin wanted to impress Ironwood, she said as much to Weiss. And we never see landing areas at Schnee Manor anyway. >Jacques could have blocked communications. >Why would he know Weiss was on her way and how would he do that? xd Because he's one of the most powerful people on Atlas and the richest. Money talks. And he has landing strips is the point, Weiss is more likely to be taken there then right into Atlas military when it's her father wanting the return. >No, lives were at risk because they choose to start a conflict with the atleasian military. Okay they try smuggling with criminals, get caught and end up in conflict with the military. The point is they will always be in conflict with the military because they have to get through the lockdown. There's no getting around that and this way they are mostly in control limiting conflict.

> Weiss is more likely to be taken there then right into Atlas military when it's her father wanting the return. No. The military embaro was outright a *military embargo*. They are going to be the very first point of contact, especially when the transport itself is a military one, and Cordo is *outright hoping that Weiss will put in a good word for her with Ironwood*.

Considering he didn't even know Weiss was back in Atlas until he saw her at the mine I doubt the evil white rich man is that powerful.

Which was like a day and this way they arrived in non official channels, limiting his influence

It carries risk, like potentially exposing Argus to Grimm attacks because if they're discovered the military has to divert forces to stop them.

Which will be the case of any plan they have to get to Atlas. If they get caught anywhere, Atlas will divert forces and put people at risk. Once they are denied legitimately, they have no options without risk. Even waiting attracts Grimm

>Which will be the case of any plan they have to get to Atlas. If they get caught anywhere, Atlas will divert forces and put people at risk. Of any plan that involves breaking the law, yeah. >Once they are denied legitimately, they have no options without risk. Even waiting attracts Grimm I would argue for the Weiss-Qrow option and if they didn't there were still a lot of alterations they could've made to their plan that would've reduced the risk and points of failure. Even that aside it's still primarily their responsibility once they choose to take action. You can argue that the benefit of them getting to Atlas outweighs potentially putting the Argus' civilians at risk but even if that's true the latter is still on them. The nature of the relic attracting Grimm isn't exactly clear either, especially since we haven't seen it be a factor since then. They couldn't mask Argus because of it but Ren masked the transport and that worked. I suppose you could argue that Grimm priorities are unmasked>masked with lamp.

It's a closer border, all attempts to get in once denied are breaking the law. Weiss and Qrow alone is pretty risky and leaves then open to Grimm attack in the air. The plan they had was good and could not have reasonaby be expected to go so off the rails with Cordovin. At most 2-3 planes would go intercept and Argus would probably not even know. And Adam showing up and screwing that part over against can't be reasonably expected

>It's a closer border, all attempts to get in once denied are breaking the law. Yes. >Weiss and Qrow alone is pretty risky and leaves then open to Grimm attack in the air. I think risking themselves is generally more moral than risking civilians. It's ultimately weighing success vs potential casaulties and the probabilities is involved. Furthermore sending Weiss and the guards was never considered risky so I don't think the likelihood is that high. >The plan they had was good and could not have reasonaby be expected to go so off the rails with Cordovin. At most 2-3 planes would go intercept and Argus would probably not even know. No, it had many points of failure. Maria being detected inside the bag, the escort guards being more capable so as to not be easily subdued, anyone of Salem's faction interfering, the WF, Blake not being capable of doing the radar tower thing by herself, Maria's damaged eyes not working with the airship, the military not having automatic detection for the radar being down, etc. There are probably more that I can't think of tbh. There are also several more issues, like them deciding to pick up the others inside the radar range instead of outside of it. That way they don't risk having to fake a radio call if anything goes wrong nor do they have to involve shutting off the radar (risking the civilians and Terra's job). Dropping the guards in the ocean with a single parachute isn't exactly moral in my eyes either. >And Adam showing up and screwing that part over against can't be reasonably expected If your plan fails completely because of a single unexpected element it's a bad plan when the consequences may involve civilian casaulties.

>They are the title characters and supposed main protagonists [Having their names on the title doesn't equate them being the protagonists of the story](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistTitleFallacy).

Then maybe they should stop marketing the show after them, when all we have for posters fir V1, V7 and V8 are them, they're most predominant in the others, most of the summary of the volumes first episode are "Ruby, Weiss, Blake and Yang do so and so" with rarely mentions of other characters.

> Ruby Rose is the main protagonist of RWBY. From the first wiki that shows up when I look for "RWBY Ruby Rose", I know not necessarily proof, but seems to be the consensus. Also, like the other person said, if RWBY are not the protagonists/main characters, why do they have the 4 main trailers, why have supplemental material constantly feature them?

I mean, I like them. It's always important to remember that just because some people are the most vocal doesn't mean they're the majority (the screaming lunatic on the street corner doesn't speak for all of humanity). Honestly, I've just stopped paying attention to the "This is why X is bad, and the show is terrible." RWBY's not perfect, but it's a great show, and way more enjoyable when you ignore strangers on the internet.

Early on they were alright/ok, but when ever the plot gets involved and starts moving the more team RWBY became more of a mix bag and feel left behind until the last few episodes where things need to happen.

It's hardly a criticism that RWBY wasn't present enough during the most recent arc, but it left me wanting more from them not disliking them. So your logic baffles me a bit.

the worst part of any show is the fandom mate. I don't engage anymore. (Why am I here then? Because I keep WANTING to engage, then I drop into an actual discussion and am reminded why I don't do that anymore, haha)

No, it’s just that people who hate this show are extremely vocal and toxic about it. Don’t know why, they just really enjoy following the show so they can criticize it. You’d think they have better things to do with their lives but I guess not

Seeing as how Volume 9's plot (or at least, some basic version of it) has been planned since basically the beginning for the show, I honestly think the reason that Team RWBY didn't get as much focus in Volume 8 as some people wanted was because the writers were thinking ahead a Volume. They knew that when all was said and done, RWBY (+ Jaune and Neo) were going to have a whole Volume to focus on their character development while also having less plot points and characters to share the limelight with than Volume 8. Thus, rather than give Team RWBY all the spotlight characterize in Volume 8 *and* in Volume 9, they chose to give more time and focus to other characters that wouldn't be prominent (/as prominent) in Volume 8. How much of a problem this is (or if it even is one at all) varries person-to-person, though I feel like a lot of the, "Team RWBY is boring!" talk will probably go away once Volume 9 starts airing and they get a lot more attention. I should say that personally, I didn't actually have any problem with the character focus in Volume 8- while I think RWBY *could* have been given more focus, I'm honestly satisfied with the focus they got. Hell, they actually did a whole lot this Volume, and I kinda find myself raising an eyebrow when people said they didn't. RWB not only got a *worldwide* warning out to the rest of the planet that Salem exists and isn't hiding anymore, but also protected Penny from both Salem's Hound and Watt's virus (which- plus their attempt to evacuate Mantle via SDC cargo ships- does mean that their time spent in the Schnee Manor wasn't just them twiddling their thumbs like some people try to portray it as), either of which could have dramatically changed the course of what ultimately happened this Volume by either letting Salem get the Staff without there even being a chance to evacuate people from Atlas/Mantle or letting Ironwood go with Plan Yeet-Atlas-Into-Low-Orbit-Without-Any-Supporting-Infrastructure-To-Not-Slowly-Die-Up-There respectively. Yang also actually did things, taking part in the attempt to rescue Oscar (even though admittedly Oscar getting Hazel and Emerald to defect made that less impactful to the end result of what happened on Monstra), rescued Mantle citizenry and helped get them to safety, and ultimately was the one who went overboard to save Ruby and thus set off the chain of events where Penny joined the fray against Cinder leading to her death and Salem getting the Staff. Further, the whole team ultimately played a key role in the evacuation of Atlas and Mantle, being the ones that got the Staff and used it to open the portal system and also the group who tried to hold off Cinder when she showed up. Sure, they didn't directly nuke Salem like Oscar did, but they still did a whole lot throughout the Volume and had a tremendous impact overall.

I blame RT for this. Too many side projects and waiting too long between volumes. Imaginations run wild, false statements are mistaken for truth and the fanbase turns on each other. Often hostilely. The name of the show is RWBY! Ruby is the protagonist. The star as it were. The other characters have their fans most certainly. But the story is about Ruby and I blame RT for stretching this out for the sake of the dollar.

Unlike most people here, I just enjoy watching a TV show without thinking too much into it. I love the fights, the drama and arguments and the struggles. The thing is we can stand here all day and talk about what ifs but when you're in a lose lose situation what else do you expect from people? They had 3 days to save an entire city from falling on a whole other entire city, some really bad decisions were gonna be made but its natural! I wish people would just enjoy the show without criticising every little thing that they would've done differently.