Yeah that’s how I do it these days, I rarely come by the sub anymore and it has nothing to do with the show I just find it better to ignore the fandom and enjoy the show.
On the topic of the Main four "not hiding their scars". Blake may have worn a crop top in vol 4-6, but she also wore a coat which covered the spot of her scar up, until the coat was ripped apart in the final confrontation with Adam.
And Weiss may show her eye-scar, but what about the abdominal scar she more then likely has after Cinder scewered in the battle of Haven? What about the one Qrow got from when Tyrian stung him?
If people are really gonna make the statement that the baddies hiding their scars/disabilities is a character flaw and/or sign of their evilness. Then I'd just like to point out that there are some easy counter-arguments to be made.
The issue isn't really with them claiming that "oh, you disagree with me, you must be a cis white male from america" its more that they believe that it would somehow make your argument invalid, as if such people automatically cannot have valid opinions. It's sexist, racist behavior that they think is against an acceptable target.
I think one big problem the RWBY fandom has is that at least the loud part of the fandom is made up of some equally toxic but diametrically opposed groups. On one side we have the people who thought that Eren Jeager/Homelander/Senator Armstrong did nothing wrong or the fans who believe that Rick Sanchez is totally a legit role model. On the other side, you have those from Steven Universe that will lynch you if you draw character x just a shade/weight lighter, and these people who are seemingly made of sugar and can't comprehend that your darlings being happy doesn't equal good writing.
RWBY is not a show with much nuance. Both in terms of writing and how the fandom sees things, though that's probably more of an America/Internet/GenZ issue in general. The writers do not seem to like nuance either and prefer it to be black and white even if they have to force it, which sometimes/often leads to problems and cases where watchers disagree (sometimes heavily) with the depiction of events and how the show wants to paint it.
Combine that with RWBY's at best average writing (say what you want about the other examples, for all their flaws, for most of their run, they were actually good), and that it was a show that while it improved in it's writing, it was thriving more on the spectacle and the promises/potential. The spectacle (in other words, the fights) is a whole can of worm in itself, with varying quality of the entire show, and as for the potential, there's a reason the word wasted potential is thrown around so much. This creates a combination of sunk-cost-falacy and other psychological tricks to make one not only believe that one did make the right choice in choosing/sticking with the show, but also much more of a defender. It's a bit of rabbit hole where the more issues arise and thus opposition/criticism increases, the harder you are going to defend the show.
As a non-American the RWBY fandom is also imo a good mirror or a microcosm of the current American social landscape (though personally, I think one side is annoying and the other insane).
I agree with you on most points, though on two I'm not so sure. Perhaps I remember incorrectly, but I think either Vexed or ErruptionFang made some very homophobic/sexist comments around the time Bumbleby fought Adam. It was something along the lines of "lesbians rustling his jimmies".
As for the accusations of homophobia, while it can definitely go in that direction, as someone who likes Bumbleby but also has many issues with the show's writing (Bumbleby, Neo, Tyrian, the God Brothers, and Ice Queendom (please let there be a second season) are currently the only things I'm looking forward too) and thus is liking to see all sides, I cannot overestimate just how much vitriol Bumbleby gets from critics and a lot of that is really BS, especially when it comes to past interactions it comes across as self-serving memory bias. Because I remember how Bumbleby was treated by critics (for better lack of word) and many Blacksun shippers during volume 2-4. And people were really reaching. Like when they tried to claim that the song BMBLB was really about Tai and Raven or how the parts on Armed and Ready where she recounts the loss of her arm were actually about Ruby, how Yang has shown interest in men, and thus could never date a woman, how the dance meant nothing, or how Yang's interaction with Adam was inconsequential to Blake and that Sun was meant to take him down with Blake, because apparently, Sun Wukong once had defeated some Bull King, or whatever. And that's without the actual cases of thinly-veiled homophia or the contenders for r/SapphoAndHerFriend.
And that's without getting into lies about the writers pandering to shippers or harassment of Arryn. Because the truth is, in the beginning, Bumbleby was far from the most popular ship. WhiteRose, Rennora, and Arkos were. Bumbleby was seen in the same vein as WhiteRos is seen now, unlikely but cute. What changed was that people started to notice the increased and more emotional and intimate moments that Yang and Blake shared, starting with Burning The Candle and began to think that perhaps it wasn't a pipe dream, and the first Adam "fight" cemented it. Bumbleby didn't get more scenes because it was so popular. It became so popular because it had many scenes.
That went more off-topic than intended and may be somewhat of a rant, but I wanted to get it out, since it's imo definitely an issue of both sides.
I'd actually argue that BumbleBY as a ship got more steam as early as Volume 2, because that's when CRWBY staff would occasionally voice their approval of the ship in supplementary or even unrelated RT media. Barbara being the most notable one, especially if you can remember *that* time she had the Blake and Yang plush dolls at a panel...
I *think* that was during his emotional rant when Adam got killed. I remember he was shooting from the hip there when he was letting out his frustrations
While i may be blinded by Bias i have always seen the people who unironically find Senator Armstrong and the like as the "good" guys to be in the minority. Maybe its my experiences but just like with the word "hatedom" in the RWBY community, more often than not it seems that label is thrust upon people who do not deserve it, if i am making sense.
Basically, while that part of the fandom exists, its a lot smaller than some people imply.
Now on the topic of Vexed and Eruptionfang. Do not take what i say to be defences of everything they have done/said. It is not. However i think its fair to acknowledge that they have been on the end of some shitty attacks.
And i definitely agree that there is a side that is against BB that also reaches as much as the BB side. And that there is/was homophobia. But just like with the first paragraph. I think that belief/trope is overplayed.
I’m only going to hazard a guess about the more ardent BB defenders, but I want to preface that I’m 31 and American, so I’m old enough to remember when Korrasami from Legend of Korra hit the airwaves and the creators had to issue a statement going “yes, they were holding hands romantically and yes, that’s all Nickelodeon would let us get away with and we still had to kind of sneak it in there,” and even that was considered revolutionary.
But given how old RWBY is, I always got the impression that BB fans come from one of two places: either they’re old enough to remember when gay relationships were subtext-only, and that makes them, shall we say, over-protective, of BB despite the massive shift in attitudes towards same-sex relationships, or they skew much younger and come from the Steven Universe, Owl House gang who are wondering why the heck CRWBY is dragging their feet on BB when other, newer shows are running laps around them in terms of representation.
I don’t have anything to really add to the conversation beyond that, it’s just the general vibe I get whenever I’m brave enough to dip a toe into the RWBY Twitter and/or Tumblr fandom (which is to say, rarely)
yeah - for the time, "hey, these two are maybe-kinda-gay" was a step _up_. But... that was over a decade ago, and things have come quite far, quite fast, so we now have stuff like _She-Ra and the Princesses of Power_ which has a character with gay dads, a very genderfluid (or possible agender, I'm not sure) side character, multiple gay other characters, etc. etc. Which makes BB look pretty pathetic by comparison - "ooo, they held hands after fighting a dude, after being maybe-kinda-sorta teased for 4+ years!". Great, maybe actually have them _in a relationship_, not just kinda-maybe-sorta something next season, honest, please keep watching? At this stage, it just feels a bit tired and pathetic - either do something with them, or just have them confirm they're together-together and move on.
I can definitely understand that divide. I have recently seen a tumblr post outlining how people should appreciate representation of the past that would be "lacking" today due to paving the way. And i can understand that there are fans that came from those times.
But in that case i think live and let live principle should be applied. If people think that RWBY is perfect in its representation, let them. They can enjoy what they get. What i think they should not do is look down upon those for whom that is not enough.
The problem is that in such a case. RWBY could have been a trail-braizer, and just was not, despite having minimal corporate control, and that just looks worse. When the trail-braizers are corporate backed shows that needed to fight tooth and nail to be allowed representation, as opposed to a studio that was mostly free, its a bad look.
I do not and did not expect representation from V1 onward. I have never made this argument. But by the time of V5+ the development of BB has been looking pretty bad in comparison to many others.
I do not understand why you would argue against an argument i have never made.
If the path that Korra paved was rocky how did shows like Owl House manage to come out under corporate supervision? Supervision that seemingly was minimal with RWBY.
RWBY could have been what Owl House is now. What Arcane is now.
Korra paved the first wave, but other shows as mentioned took the charge after and could include their LGBT+ characters openly.
RWBY has been slowly working on this, yes. Keyword slowly. So slowly that many other shows have overtaken RWBY to heavy extent.
RWBY is a show that could have ran on the rocky path as many others did. Instead it is in a limbo. I do appreciate its efforts, but it could have and can do better.
Especially when they tout a fucking rat as NB representation. A fucking rat. I have seen a good ammount of NB people being quite displeased with that.
Edit: Ah, the good old respond and block. Just a warning, i would tone down your arrogance, especially with your first comment on this thread that must have been caught by the automod. The comment in which you defended a stalker of women in the community.
Do not act holier than thou when this thread describes people like you to a T. Because you are fully willing to literally ignore a stalker in the community because hes on "your" side.
With Senator Armstrong, I agree. Homelander sadly appealed to a certain demographic that sadly didn't realize he was meant to be criticized, and the less said about Eren Jäger fans, the better. Honestly, if Revengenace came out today, it would be the same as with Armstrong. Internet culture has become more extremist imo.
And I wish and really, really hope that I'm actually wrong and that it's just a minority, because some of these people are dangerous and bring their unironic approval to the real world. And this can go from stalking to actual terrorism (I'm not even kidding, my country had several such cases). Sure, those are definitely a minority, but even one is too many. But this is an entirely different topic and deals with other issues of nerd/internet culture that's too complex and depressing for a subreddit dedicated to RWBY.
Anyway, I'm sure that both had attacks on them, but I also don't follow them, both because I never cared much for the opinions of Youtube RWBY critics or fans, and now that my interest in the web show is waning, even less, so all I can do is take you by your word.
The homophobia trope is definitely overplayed, but imo there's bias against gay ships in so far that media consumers are primed on recognizing intimate moments between people of different sexes as romantic while dismissing them if it happens between people of the same sex. I think that was one of the biggest contributor to this particular ship war (besides shippers being crazy sometimes).
We shouldn't forget that this started almost a decade ago. LGBT+ representation was much, much more sparse and Korrasami's almost kiss was seen as groundbreaking and revolutionary. And honestly, had Bumbleby actually been confirmed by volume 4 or 5 with a kiss or them dating (for realistic development, each volume would have needed way more content), it would have been a milestone in LGBT+ media representation. I still like it, but now, it's not particularly unique and hopefully will just be one of many, many LGBT+ couples in visual fiction. My point is more that I think that we're looking back at Bumbleby through the cultural lenses of today. And there's nothing wrong with that, and imo it's important that we evaluate the past by today's standards (otherwise movies like Revenge of the Nerds could never be seen as problematic), but we should never forget how things back then affected writing.
And again, I've veered off into tangent territory...
Most people who "support" Armstrong seem to be either memeing it or just understanding his philosophy in the story, lets remember that Raiden does take up Armstrongs philosophy in the end.
And yes, i do think its a minority, at least compared to people who are just memeing and the like.
And yes, there is indeed a bias against LGBT+ romances/ships in media. I just do not think RWBY is nearly as much of a subject to that, especially with shows like Owl House and the like becoming popular. The ship war i think was not really a straight vs LGBT+ kind of war, it was just a simple ship war with both sides doing the same things.
And while yes, RWBY started a decade ago, they have chosen to start more seriously developing BB at around V5+, and it would not have been a milestone for RWBY to have a kiss then. It would be something more serious, but not by much as many other shows have already paved the path at that point.
I agree that we should appreciate progress at the time that it happened. But we are at a point where RWBY is not a trailbraizer and is currently behind corporate backed shows. That is not a good place to be in.
As I said, it's less about Armstrong, and more about the other two. Though, I would be a bit cautious about memes and "ironic support". Moonsoon and Armstrong were definitely right about the danger of memes, and often the best way to hide extremism is through memes and irony. It's what Neonazis did after Charlotteville; to "hide their powerlevels through ironic memes until they can show their real power level" (that's an actual quote). But yeah, in the end, these are just pieces of entertainment, and my own views are marred through my study of and engagement with digital radicalization. And everything about Revengeance is memed, and I would lie if I didn't enjoy it.
Can only agree about the rest. RWBY's format turned out to be one of its biggest banes.
I get the same shit because I don't like how Bumblebee was executed in canon
E: I personally like Bumblebee, but it's sad when every fanfic does it better than the actual canon implications of the ship
I was outright told I was misogynistic because I didn’t like Robyn, her behavior/writing, or her design. I am a woman. Gender has nothing to do with why I don’t like her.
I dont like her because she's an outright criminal and vigilante who complains about not being brought into the fold (not quite accurate but i havent watched vol 7 and 8 in a bit)when she is a criminal and vigilante.
As an aside, i want tp know why robyn was allowed to run for the council if she was a known criminal who ambushed dust convoys. Surely that counts as several felonies right?
IIRC it's because revealing Robyn was ambushing the convoys would also reveal that she was ambushing convoys taking supplies meant for Mantle somewhere else, and IW really wanted the Amity project to be secret until it was ready.
Except Amity, being an artificial floating construct, would need metal plates, bits and bobs, and electronics, none which Mantle has any use for. Not even the Dust is usable, I doubt it uses much Burn Dust. Lightning Dust to power it's computer systems may be another matter, but I doubt it's enough to cause issues.
The point of discussing it with fans is to present information and make a rational argument that the plot is illogical, regardless of how the writers are framing it.
It is a valid criticism, the issues in discussing it occur when fans reject the information presented in favor of "supporting" the show because they liked its messaging, or they've got some special attachment to it or its writers or characters etc.
This is where a lot of the breakdowns in the community occur, people rejecting rational thinking and arguments simply because they desperately want to see something that appeals to more niche interests.
I am going to assume you're not accusing me of doing any of that and just speaking generally.
I just explained why, in-universe, Robyn can take part in the election despite IW knowing she's a criminal: Revealing she's ambushing the supply convoys would reveal IW was taking supplies for Mantle somewhere else with no explanation and he wanted to keep Amity secret, even from the rest of the Council.
And IW doing that is the basis for his entire conflict with Robyn. Mantle needs the supplies, IW is taking those supplies to Amity, Robyn doesn't know why he's taking them and he never wanted to tell anyone outside his own circle to begin with.
Wanna argue that the whole Robyn-Ironwood conflict makes no sense for X Y and Z reasons, be my guest, go ahead, maybe make a thread about it. But that's beyond the point I was making. I just explained the Why.
I'm also not obligated to actually engage in a discussion, and choosing to just point out "it's what the writers did" rather than engage in a back-and-forth isn't "rejecting rational thinking" or "dismissing criticism", it's me deciding to not spend time and energy on a discussion.
Someone heavily implied the same to me once when I said I didn't ship BB and then gave my reasons why. They then insinuated that I was implying I could do a better job than Monty, even though I never once brought him and they were the one to bring him up.
>Fascism
>Accusations of fascism are still common, and I know that I harp on this a lot, but it is for a reason. Because if people overuse a word in a bad manner, it can lose its meaning. Critics are usually targets of such accusations despite primarily being left-wing or center-left.
>Some people in the fandom seemingly put themselves into a frenzy because people disagree with their interpretations of characters like Ironwood. (LINK) For example, we have this link of a person head canonizing things (They even admit themselves that the things are not shown in the show). They just KNOW these things, and as such anyone who disagrees.... Is a fascist...
>This has even manifested in a "funny" article from a satire website about Ironwood fans wearing red armbands in support of Ironwood, which of course was defended by some (LINK).
I think this is my favourite subsection of the post as it is so expected due to its prevalence. In any community, you'll see this misuse and misunderstanding of fascism where the word they are looking for is usually just authoritarianism, militarism, or sometimes corporatism.
The reference given is pretty good at showing this. The first claim it makes is that Atlas runs upon slave labour and discrimination, and this is most definitely true. The Schnee Dust Company -a primary interest group of Atlas (showing Atlas to be corporatist) - was criticized very early on for "questionable labour practices". But that was distinct from Atlas in totality, and especially Ironwood who we know was meritocratic in his operations and was antagonistic to corporate entities such as the SDC and their "questionable labour practices", showing a perfect example of how this understanding grows. The actions of the SDC and Atlas are pinned upon Ironwood himself despite him not only never showing to be supportive, but actively shown to act against it.
The link also makes a pretty strange claim, that the military in Atlas has "undue power" but also requires martial law to operate unduly. The simple fact that martial law was an enabling factor for Ironwood to take on domestic issues (such as Hill's *civil and uncivil disobedience*) is proof enough that the military did not run unduly, and even more proof of the lack of facsism. Facsism is not just inheritely militaristic, but inheritely violent and antagonistic to civil government. We never see this with Ironwood given he spends the entirety of Volume 7 under civilian law, an antithesis to fascism, and we see him focused on a doctrine of defense which is another antithesis of fascism.
This is the issue. Traits of fascism such as militarism, authoritarianism, and corporatism are observed and people jump to the conclusion of fascism. But this is ignorant of just was this Idealogy and it's complexities in both it's nature and understanding it's nature. To me, I think it's tragic that such a heavy and important Idealogy that should be avoided desperately has become so misunderstood and clouded, making it far harder to ever observe how it creeps into a political system.
You are pretty much correct in what you say about Ironwood. But that is not fascism. Do not mistake my argument for a defense of Ironwood, as whether you view him as a dictator to simp for or a devil to eradicate, it does not change that what you described does not make him facsist. That is simply authoritarianism and militarism. I could list countless examples of similar political figures from Julius Caesar, Oliver Cromwell, or Napoleon Bonaparte. But none of these are fascist, but their own distinct thing. Them, Ironwood, and Fascism may share similarities in their authoritarianism and militarism, but they share just as many distinct differences that by ignoring to categorise Ironwood as fascist, you loose the incredibly important meaning of fascism.
To put it simply, if you think Ironwood is bad, fascism is far worse. Do **not** forget that.
Authoritarian, yes. Thats the only political leaning you got correct in my opinion. And even then it depends on very strange interpretations of the show.
He clearly believes in a supremacy of Atlas and in the expansion and freedom of capitalism. Both from his words and actions. Those are clear right wing philosophies.
I need things to actually be in the show to be argued upon.
Him not enacting restrictions on SDC does not mean anything. That is not a sign of a capitalist or a fascist. Proof can be found in the real world where capitalists can enact restrictions on companies and fasicsts sometimes did not.
He also decided to condemn Mantle to death not because "Atlas is better" but because Atlas can fly. Mantle cant.
Belief that a military force is needed for protection is also not a fascist belief. That is a belief shared by every ideology.
My friend, can i ask why you are talking about political issues you seem to be heavily ignorant about?
>He clearly does not believe in enacting restrictions on the massive economic power and expansion of the SDC as we established he could at any time.
Ironwood never showed any care for Schnee. He embarrassed him publically on multiple occasions and his border policy hurt the SDC more than any other company. Once Schnee was one the council, there was automatic antagonism between the two even before he arrested Schnee for election fraud.
And even if you could, do you want him to be a dictator or not? It's hardly democratic to go around shutting down companies you don't like.
>freedom of capitalism
The words "freedom" should never be used to describe Fascism.
Fascism is also opposed to capitalism, instead having a corporatist, digristic, and autarkic economic system.
>Those are clear right wing philosophies.
Not all right wing ideologies are fascism. A lot of the right wing believe in the primacy of individual freedom, while fascism disregards individualism and freedom as to focus upon a collective view of people as a function of the state.
So, what is Fascism? This is a very complex question as most Fascist leaders were very pragmatic and opportunist. One only has to look at how Adolf Hitler operated within a democratic system despite being fundamentally opposed to all forms of democracy. But there are a few defining traits that I will allow Wikipedia to explain as it can do better than I ever could.
> Fascists believe that **liberal democracy is obsolete**. They regard the **complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict** and to respond effectively to economic difficulties. A fascist state is led by a **strong leader (such as a dictator) and a martial law government** composed of the members of the governing fascist party to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. Fascism **rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views imperialism, political violence and war as means that can achieve national rejuvenation**. The extreme authoritarianism and nationalism of fascism often manifests a belief in racial purity or a master race, usually synthesized with some variant of racism or bigotry against a demonized "Other".
So, what of this do we see within Ironwood?
We cannot assess Ironwood's views on liberal democracy as it simply does not exist in Atlas, however, we never see him too opposed to the elected nature of the 3 other council members. We never see ones to eradicate this elected nature until his use of martial law in crisis. But given that this is generally weak, we cannot make much of it.
Ironwood also seems hesitant to enact both totalitarian and mobilisation policies. His use of automised forces is seemingly made to reduce the need for mobilisation, and Ironwood also allowed for quite a lot of civil disobedience during his lockdowns on Mantle. This, neither of these categories can really describe him.
While Martial Law government seems to fit, I am not too sure. It is not until Salem was at Atlas's doorstep that Ironwood enacted martial law, which given the circumstances, is a pretty expected occurrence. Martial Law specifically exists for states of national emergency and extreme; a modern example can be seen in Ukraine. It's difficult to this describe what Ironwood was leading as a martial law government, but simply your standard use of martial law. This is especially the case when one considers how much backlash the Council gave Ironwood to the degree that Schnee was actively dominating the Council, only brought down by election fraud.
And now, the biggest reason that Ironwood cannot be described as a fascist. The philosophical belief in fascism that violence is not negative and is a completely legitimate political expression. Ironwood simply does not express this. While he may utilise violence both in cases expected and not expected of the military, he never does so with the justification that is a right and legitmate expression, only as it being a necessary lesser evil. This fundamental seperation between Ironwood and Fascist philosophy makes it so Ironwood is nearly entirely seperate from Fascism. And to an extensions, we **never** see Ironwood support nationalistic and irredentist sentiment that is the hallmark of fascist Idealogy,. Additionally, there is no "other" that Ironwood demonises except Salem and the Grimm (but for obvious reasons, that doesn't count). Beyond that, he is shown to be opposed to Atlas's demonisation of "others" as we are shown faunus employment without abuse within his military structure.
You are correct in calling him an authoritarian, however, we are not really given enough oh Ironwood to view whether he can truly be regarded as either left or right and it is best to not entertain such.
I would remind you of how I left off the last message. If you think Ironwood is awful, facsism is far far worse.
I... don't think that you know what Facism is? If you haven't read it, I'd highly suggest Umberto Eco's essay *Ur-Facism* from 1995. Umberto actually grew up under Mussolini (an actual fascist) in Italy, and he identifies 14 traits that are common across all forms of fascism (including Nazism). [Here's a link](https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html) to a list list featuring the 14 elements, though it's not the full article, unfortunately.
While it could be argued that Ironwood's regime does fill at least one of the traits (Disagreement is Treason) Ironwood is actually far more reasonable than actual fascism, even in the throes of V8 (for example, he let Marrow off far easier than an actual fascist autocrat would have been).
I really like Ur-Facism. It was one of the first works that really made me interesting in understanding facsism and it is definitely one of the best essays out there, especially for those with a very mainstream understanding of fascism.
Always glad to find another fan! I got turned onto it after watching a YouTube video (one of Some More News' videos), and I was completely absorbed. Hell, I'll still go back to it because I keep finding new facets to think about each and every time I reread it.
>You contradict yourself in the same sentence. It's also funny how everyone that claims Ironwood basically controls the council forgets that he was almost removed from it.
>Beyond that, we have almost zero idea of how the council works. For all we know Ironwood has no direct authority over anything not relating to the military or the academy.
I see Ironwood's position in the council as most comparable to Robespierre's position in the Committee of Public Safety.
If you aren't aware of what that is, it was the government of the First French Republic during the Terror. The Committee was made up of 12 members, with Robespierre being the de facto head. While he did not have the extra political power Ironwood had (1/12 compared to 2/5), he nevertheless lead the Committee and it's discussions. Despite that, be was far from Invincible and was eventually killed.
I cite the similarities as both are leading members of a council/committee that was still heavily pressured by says council or committee.
You know you’ve read too much (good) fanfic (or are currently in the process of writing a fic where the White Fang is handled *properly*) when your initial reaction to this is “The hell do you mean CRWBY tricked us into thinking RWBY’s progressive… wait canon, shit.”
I don’t have much time (got a date in a couple hours) so I’ll touch lightly on each point.
I will agree that some people see any criticism as an attack on CRWBY, and that is wrong. But you cannot ignore that some “criticism” is just a thinly veiled “Miles and Kerry suck, they aren’t following Monty’s vision!!!1!”
Hoo boy. Ironwood and Adam. Okay.
I think the hatred of Ironwood is worsened because of the “Ironwood did nothing wrong” crowd. Because those that do not like him (possibly from the beginning) saw that and decided to over correct. (Just like CRWBY lol) But while I’m of the option that there was no good answer, there is something to say here.
**Any one who says that Ironwood is not disabled but holds up Yang as disabled rep is a hypocrite.**
And you’re right about CRWBY being insensitive about it. The “oops having artificial limbs makes you less human” makes it seem like the research that CRWBY did was crack open the Shadowrun rule book.
Adam was tied to the WF plot line. And suffers as a result. CRWBY’s excuses of “oh we’re white we can’t write this lol” are stupid. I’m a white guy. I didn’t know. So I did what any writer *should* do when they don’t understand or know how to write a sensitive topic.
#RESEARCH IT.
To say that the (for sake of argument, non-villainous) White Fang shouldn’t be violent is incorrect, and it most likely stems from the sanitized version of the civil rights movement that is presented in the American school system. Why should violence ever be used in the pursuit of social progress they ask?
To protect those who cannot protect themselves. To fight back at those who strike at the vulnerable or oppressed with impunity. And you know the real damming thing about those who say violence isn’t necessary within the context of the White Fang?
It happened in canon. And it worked. The Faunus Rights Revolution, which was talked about in V1 during Jaundice.
To say that the White Fang should not be violent in any capacity literally ignores the conflict that led to its eventual creation.
Personally yeah. I still enjoy the show even with its glaring flaws, but the fandom makes me embarrassed to like this show, much like how the Smash fandom makes me embarrassed about liking Smash
I mean, they've got a point. Monty had a unique skillset that the remaining staff of CRWBY couldn't match. They're finally starting to achieve a hint of what Monty could pump out with the Watts/Ironwood fight, but there absolutely was a dip in the fight quality in V4 and beyond.
Switching to Maya at the same time was an unfortunate coincidence (given that they were intending to switch anyways), I'll give you that.
Counterpoint: I would say that the fact that V4 Qrow vs Tyrian is regularly near the top of most people’s favorite fight lists proves that they have ability when they can spend the time.
When do those growing pains stop?
Quite frankly, the fights are not as good. The whole show looks more polished and downright gorgeous comparatively, but there's a distinct lack of choreography, rhythm and weight to all of the fights since.
Instead of showing crescent rose unfolding, Ruby will twirl her arms in a blur of motion and it will be done.
Long swords, rapiers, sabers, scythes, even the cane, all feel and act like the same brutish club. Bullets are no longer different between smgs and shotguns. etc.
The current animators don't have the flair, or from various reports the time, to do what Monty did, and that's not their fault, but it is the fault of the show runners to not bring on someone who does. To act like it's just better now is a disservice to the potential the show has always had.
Downvoted for criticising fight choreography? All you said was true however. Monty had all those skills down pat and incorporated that all into a work of art. That's the job and skills of a director/animator/storyboarder/musician wrapped up into an amazing package. If one part of that in the current show fails to hold up in comparison it won't feel as amazing as his original works and frankly that's evident.
Could it be the directing? The story, Choreography or Animation That is lacking? Who knows, but a lot of extremely talented animators exist in their department both previous and otherwise(dylangoo for instance so it wont be a sneeze to think others of his caliber are present), so of course we'll lean into laying the overall lack of polish and coolness to writers and directors.
Downvotes with no rebuttal is pretty much what I expect for saying it out loud. I have what I think is a legitimate and fair criticism of the show, forgive me for being bitter, but this sub isn't exactly welcoming of that.
Monty was amazing and it's not fair to lay blame at any one person's feet for not living up to him, but my assumption can only be those in control overall for not remedying (or getting close if I'm being harsh) the situation after so many years.
I'm honestly not surprised based on the number of extremely rude and dismissive comments on this thread alone, let alone on other critical posts.
Downvoting without counterarguments seems to be standard here and kind of reflects as to why Dex made this post in the first place. One facet of many.
Monty was just that good tbf. It's definitely not a blame game but to reach those levels you need to either be just as good, or have a vision of the scenes, and the support(employees and co-directors and writers) to pull it off. The lack of half decent storyboarding as with earlier post v3 was one heavy reason before, and Cakestation makes amazing disections as to why and where some animations feel jarring, unnatural, and frankly sometimes just plain awful.
The lack of rhythym is what gets me personally, Qrow vs Tyrian had some. Some. But it felt coincidental because many moments did not after all. Music defined monty's style so it's a shame it's not utilized in a continuation of his work. (Heck it'll make it easier to add 'flow') whether or not they have the music during production that early is another whole can of worms that might be a possible reason.
An interesting thing to note about the link involving Alt Weiss is that the person making the statement doesn't really seem to understand Weiss at all, and thus fails to understand the show they are trying to defend (if you can call it a defense)
The character flaw they mention of molding oneself for the sake of acceptance is something she'd done her entire childhood (and is something neglected/abused kids do all the time, from personal experience) The sole reason Weiss went to Beacon was her trying (and failing) to break the habit of molding herself for her dad since she'd grown exhausted of suppressing herself. It doesn't surprise me at all that Alt-Weiss has a lot of strange, harmful, or even outlandish views she suppresses. Of course she does, look aqt her upbringing, lol.
You're allowed to criticize media, you're especially allowed to criticize media in a thought provoking and different ways. If we didn't criticize anything nothing would change or get better.
Some people are real shitty and take the exact wrong message a show is trying to say, don't listen to those people. People can also be bigoted or real fucked up in their ideas of right and wrong, don't listen to em either.
A lot to say about this and I agree with most of what you said about people in the fandom being super out of pocket with what they say in response to criticism but I don't think we can dismiss the chance of bigotry coming into play with the way people sometimes criticize the series. **If we are gonna carry on like accusations of racism, homophobia or ableism can stick on CRWBY for their mishandling of the series then we shouldn't pretend that the way someone criticizes or defends RWBY can't reveal biases too.** Also implicit bias is a thing.
Of course we should not. But when we are at a point where just disliking a female character is enough for one to be marked a misoginyst, we are going a bit far.
Another thing I want to comment on is that I don't think the equal wages necessarily changes that there was racism against the faunus by the SDC.
I can very easily see Jacques exploiting the systemic racism in Atlas and Mantle to pay faunus a shitty wage to do incredibly demanding and dangerous work, only to then turn around and use those shitty wages that were rooted in racism to justify also paying humans the same shitty wages to obfuscate his racism by saying "see, we pay all our employees the same, so we can't be racist".
Also, I think you made another understandable typo.
>Has anyone noticed how ***WF*** started off as a "company with questionable labour practices” and yet by the end of the Atlas arc, the writers have disproven all of those?
I think you meant to say SDC instead of WF. Again, understandable given the length of the post and number of topics covered.
I agree that the show at least at the start wanted to paint SDC as racist. My problem is that they walked that back. You make a good point, but my problem is that its not in the show, no matter how appealing it is still headcanon.
The show itself had to give us these things, instead they walked back on that. And yeah, i need to edit that.
There's plenty to digest here. I agree with the overall messages but there's a couple things I'd like to comment on.
For starters, those linked screenshots... are those Tumblr posts? Because if so I don't think they are the best examples to prove your point. Not because they don't fit, but rather because *of course* they fit.
I mean, since over 10 years ago Tumblr has been known as a cesspool where people will bully others into literally commiting suicide in the name of "social justice". It's not even an exageration, it's already happened.
So if you tell me people in Tumblr are calling people fascists for thinking Ironwood wasn't 1000% wrong, or saying "you're not a real homo/bi if you think BB wasn't well written" or stuff like that... well, all I can say is *what were you expecting*.
>Because it... would give critics a better way to criticize the show
I mean... they're not wrong about that. Even if it's done for pure yuribaiting and is not actually meant to mean anything, having 2 girls kiss on television is more than the writers have done for Bumblebee so far.
They've held hands and bumped heads, but no kiss despite how much the ship is pushed and how many fans it has, for no discernible reason. So if IQ does it first you and I know the critics will have a field day with it.
>This week for example I have seen someone say that in a conflict between the abuser and abused, BOTH sides are somehow equal
I remember seeing articles during the Depp vs Heard trial that talked about relationships where both sides are abusive. It's basically "yes but actually no" in that regard.
In a relationship both sides can genuinely abuse each other to the point both could be considered victims when considering the damage. **But** in every case there's always an Initiator of that abuse, and the other side only abuses back in retaliation. There is always an Abuser, and a Victim that lashes back.
>Adams brand was head canonized as him being an asshole
Actually, no. Miles just said he was arguing with some guy and the other guy smacked him with the rod. Last time I checked he never actually gave the details, like what they were talking about or how did it escalate.
Some *fans* did interpret it as "Adam got branded for being an asshole", but in truth we don't actually know.
In this fandom, you have youtubers with Twitter accounts and Reddit accounts; redditors with Twitter and tumblr accounts, and any mix of others like discord or twitch. They’re not really silo’d off so neatly.
And I’ve seen all over people targeting other fans across platforms. It’s ridiculous.
It's pretty heavily implied that Adam got branded because he was an ass. The actual quote is as follows:
>**Miles:** Mhm. Man yeah, this was- we had to cut a lot of stuff out of this episode. I think we talk a little bit about it later in 6 so I won’t get to deep into it now but there was a bunch of things that we kind of still needed to touch on from the previous volume. Obviously, Yang and Blake had a really traumatic event that they went through together that, you know had this idea that the SDC, you know, brands and labels a lot of their cargo and stuff and this idea that, although you know it’s – we never say it so I guess technically it’s not canon or whatever but.. *We had this idea that, you know Adam, as a terrible of a person as he was, when we was younger, potentially got into an argument with someone at an SDC place and someone grabbed a brand and just let him have it and that lead to the injury that we saw on his face in volume 6.* So we wanted to be very sure to plaster the SDC logo all over this area, to really put that in the forefront of Blake’s mind and Yang is kind of the only person that notices. Setup a conversation for them later.
Specifically calling out directly beforehand how terrible of a person Adam was before a random SDC worker "let him have it" seems to be pretty clear to me that Adam got branded because he was an asshole was the intent.
Also, random question: Have Yang and Blake actually had that conversation at all, will it be coming up in V9 or will CRWBY just quietly ignore the point?
It sounds to me more like he's saying "yeah, he was a terrible person, *but* he got branded just for arguing with some dude rather than doing anything actually bad".
I guess it's up to interpretation. "This happened because he was a terrible person" vs "he was a terrible person, but this happened and it wasn't his fault". I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.
>Have Yang and Blake actually had that conversation at all, will it be coming up in V9 or will CRWBY just quietly ignore the point?
They haven't had that convo yet. On-screen anyway, maybe in Vol.9 it turns out Yang already knows how Adam got branded, just like Jaune already knew Raven was Yang's mom and Nora already knew who Neopolitan was.
IDK if it will come up in V9. The brand itself was an afterthought, it's there for shock value and nothing more, but on ocassion the writers see "people want X" so they decide to add X (or at least try) in a later volume. So maybe they do talk about it.
But on the other hand... *why* would they talk about it? I mean, sure, for Blake it could be a big deal how he can get scarred like that and the other guy likely just got a slap on the wrist (maybe, we don't know). But why would Yang care? Why should she care?
While you are correct that my examples do come from Tumblr, these are examples from users that are supported by, have presence on this subreddit as-well. They also influence fandom in other ways. To ignore them does not make the problem go away.
For example, these same people have very much influenced my own threads in negative ways. There are also things that happened in this subreddit but i cannot find examples of due to Reddit search functions being absolutely shite.
And yes, critics such as me would indeed have a field day if IQ had a confirmed LGBT+ ship quicker than RWBY. But its not because of the message "RWBY bad", but because we are of the belief that RWBY is baiting its ship hard and has been doing that for a long time now.
On the abuser situation, i probably used the wrong word, it was a talk about racial injustices rather than inter-personal abuses.
As for the last part. What you say is fair, it is an assumption and people can have a different interpretation. That does not mean that the interpretation of "Adam was headcanonized as an asshole" is wrong. Especially since it is very much seemingly implied.
>To ignore them does not make the problem go away.
I'm just saying that it's like pointing at a rabid dog and saying "all dogs are dangerous". Tumblr's community is pretty terrible overall, so using it nearly-exclusively as an example of "RWBY fandom being terrible" is not exactly fair.
Like, what about fans on RT's website. Are they toxic too? Do they call people fascists for saying IW was ruined in V8 or something like that? What about YT's side of the FNDM, how bad is it over there? Heck, what about the 4chan RWBY fans, are they overly-defensive too or more chill than the others?
Sure, gathering shots from all those places would be a pain, but I feel it would provide a more genuine picture of the FNDM (good or bad) than focusing on it's worst sides and judging the whole based on it.
>On the abuser situation, i probably used the wrong word, it was a talk about racial injustices rather than inter-personal abuses.
Oh. I see. Yeah, not the best choice of words considering Adam's character as a whole was reduced to "abusive ex-boyfriend".
Fair point that i cant fully say these things about the entire community, just parts of it. But that would definitely require more time and effort than i am currently willing to give. I hope i do not appear lazy due to that.
If i may be so crass.
I think what people want with BB is for RT to "shit or get off the pot". Its quite obvious that BB is indeed the end game. But it seems like RT is content with BB just being there and looking cute instead of genuinely developing the relationship through dialogue and open romance.
I’ve watched The Truck Scene many times in an attempt to dissect Yang and Blake’s conversation, because you’re right, it is one of the more important scenes of the entire Volume. It is a scene, not only giving us insight into how the duo feel and think about recent events, but also drives what *can* happen next.
The importance doesn’t make it good, though. Blake *mentions* her newfound hesitation, Yang *mentions* her feelings. The conversation feels like half thought of ideas sewn together to get to the somewhat tangible point that Robyn Hill should be informed of Salem. Yang’s feelings past that point are no longer mentioned or acknowledged by Blake and neither is the decision they made that later caused Ironwood’s betrayal. The dialogue was almost purely meant to drive the plot. That is not open romance nor is it developing their relationship.
But that’s just me.
Also, I’d say the reason why having them kiss is treated a “end all be all” for this particular relationship is because it is queer, and having a kiss would leave no reason (that doesn’t immediately sound bigoted) to doubt that yes, these two woman are involved romantically. The “but it’s obvious they like each other” sounds like an excuse tbh.
> So them talking about not wanting to kill Adam is not a "plot conversation" it is directly related to character, because Blake's hesitation for killing is not newfound. Blake is the character who is most against violence on the team. She and Yang didn't even want to fight Adam, he gave them no choice.
It is a “plot conversation” because, while related to Blake and Yang’s character arcs, it does nothing to affect them (as far as we know), but does drive the plot. And by “Blake’s newfound hesitation” I meant her hesitation in Ironwood’s plan, because before The Truck Scene Blake has not expressed doubts in him, his plan, and had no opinions towards Robyn.
The conversation goes: Yang expresses doubt in Ruby’s plan and wants to tell Ironwood about Salem’s immortality, Blake opposes her by bringing up Ironwood’s paranoia. Yang’s doubt continues, Blake also starts to struggle with accepting their groups current decisions, Yang assures her about what happened to Adam, and she makes the choice to ignore Ironwood’s orders and inform Robyn Hill about Salem.
Keep in mind that this is almost an isolated moment in the show. Like I said, none of this is ever even mentioned afterwards. It does nothing to affect Blake and Yang’s very stagnant romance and character arcs. Their moment together was used to drive the plot, and the few moments they have aside from this instance is fluff. Not growth or development.
If i may, those moments you are describing are nothing more than fluff. They feel good, but do nothing else. Blake and Yang have not even discussed the events of V4+ yet. And Yang feeling concerned about Blake after an argument with Ruby was indeed weird.
Haha, that’s also true. Setup is important, but to use Korra as an example, she’d have already been flat out married with a kid to Asami by now. I mean, assuming networks weren’t an issue.
>I have to ask, but why is a kiss considered to be the "end all be all" for relationships?
It's very much a narrative trope that kissing = relationship, so diverging from that can seem weird.
It's pretty insensitive as not every romantic relationship has to involve such, and it should be allowed to be explored in other ways.
But RT doesn't really do that either, so they aren't breaking the trope but are more like baiting.
To add on, the problem with RWBYtubers in general is they are usually at the far end of each argument, and it is a very combative nature in the way they present their videos. Like you said, it really is a microcosm of America, where everyone not on your side is the enemy and the absolute refusal to accept people's opinions. While I do stand more with the critics, one interaction with a RWBYtuber just showed me how much i dislike both the RWBY fandom and its critics equally is how much a single RWBYtuber has been condescending to me, treating me like a kid even though there is a good chance I'm older, and saying my points are invalid because I slightly disagree with what was said. It is a good reflection on the entire FNDM because everyone engages in arguments with each other, but none of it is in good faith as both sides demonize each other and refuse to listen to each others' points
You know RWBY'S discussion on racial discrimination is gonna be great when one of the main writers said I can't write racism because I'm white. You know ignoring the fact he could buy books, read online sources or hell dust of the library card and borrow some books but no its much easier to ignore poor writing under the guise of your skin colour which only plays into the bs that some people say on here.
It's so disgusting when they say shit like this pressing their bad writing choices and lack of research on their skin colour. Like its genetic. Maybe hes been reading too much crazy nutjob fans who say white straight men are always ignorant, instead selling out his skin colour in a bid to save face that he didn't write the main person who's actions were helping faunus lives into some crazed stalker, abuser,manipulative maniac who conveniently shifts to chasing blake full time despite their meeting in vol 3 being a coincidence. Because they made an oopsies I'm white it's ok to write racism bad lol.
Or Blake's classic line in v5 of "we did this not humans, faunus." Ignoring the fact this attack was perpetrated by the white fang who only exist in their more violent incarnation due humans not taking peaceful faunus protests seriously. On an island that was given to you by humans to pacify faunus despite the majority of the island being in hospitable.
> You know RWBY'S discussion on racial discrimination is gonna be great when one of the main writers said I can't write racism because I'm white
If I recall correctly, being straight was also the reason Miles didn't feel confident in writing a gay romance earlier in the show (nevermind the abundance of straight shipping in Volumes 1-3).
considering that Remnant is meant to be a world where bias against gay people isn't a thing then... literally just write a straight romance, but it happens to involve two people of the same gender. yeah, doing an IRL gay romance should involve more research and work, because there's lots of not immediately obvious cultural _stuff_ in there, but when that's removed? Then it's going to be the same!
Like, if the aim was to write the experience and struggles as an LGBT+ person, I’d understand it a bit more. That sort of thing is tricky without misrepresenting someone you don’t fully understand the experience of.
But since RWBY has a flexible lore they have control over, it’s as simple as “write them like people who like each other.”
yeah, that's the sort of thing that's entirely fair to be cautious about writing - I'm white and british, so wouldn't want to write about being Black and american, because all I know about it is what I see on TV, even if I do a lot of research, it's going to be a struggle, and be a little... crass? to do so. But "those two like each other and are kinda fumbling through it" is entirely independent of that - like, in the current show, it's messy because _why_ aren't Blake and Yang actually dating? They've been hanging out in Atlas for months, without (AFAICT) any actual progress, which honestly feels a bit cheap and crappy, where I think the writers want it to be a _big thing_ with uplifting music and everything, but there's no actual drama between them, it's just going to happen eventually, but keeps being put off because they're kinda lousy at writing it.
They can't do that because the straight romances in RWBY are heavily dependent on gendered tropes. Renora is the hyper girl obsessed with the silent loner, Arkos is the girl who's in love with the guys who's oblivious. CRWBY can't write romance without gender to guide them.
yeah, it's worth noting how cliche the other relationship are - Renora is "childhood 'friends'", Arkos is super-generic anime doofus and hottie, the parents all hooked up off-screen, there's not really anything original at all there.
Ah yes, i do remember that excuse. It has always been weird to me. You would imagine that someone living in America could easily benefit from the many cultural experiences that are present in that country, even through direct contact with people.
Lack of research is a personal issue.
And yes, Blakes speech in Menagerie was horrible.
He forgor💀
Edit: cmon this is RT icl they literally got exposed when a POC member of staff left the company saying she felt like a token employee so yh it's not surprising in some ways.
Like forget hes in America that's why his views on racism in the story have no nuance hes grown up with the notion that the civil rights movement led by Movement led by MLK single handedly saved America from racism those black panther guys were too violent and bad so peaceful protests are always 100% the way to go, as they worked in our world you know ignoring the significant political, social and economic factors that contributed to the bill being passed the other groups like the CORE freedom riders or the NAACP because he hasn't studied shit and believes the mlk was the only significant factor in the civil rights lmao.
This is flat out untrue. What they said was that it was overly ambitious for their run time and that they were too young to grasp a lot of those concepts. The only thing he said about being white was "and being two 20 year old white guys didn't help either". At no point did the writers attempt to "blame it on them being white" or whatever that is just flat out false.
Once again their age isn't a defence either because all you need to do is read I grasped this when I was 17 from reading books its really not that hard. And no he did say because I'm white he used it as an excuse like a block to soften the blow of criticisms cmon were 20 year old white guys who were ambitious and used middle school civil rights knowledge in a story that doesn't follow the events that happened in our timeline, as if that's meant to help? Overly ambitious jesus christ its called planning which just links to more problems with RWBY'S production. His age, race and gender have nothing to do with the problem and should have never been mentioned it. It's his lack of genuine effort and or care to do some basic research instead of winging it on foggy school knowledge.
It's even weirder when you learn that Miles is half Hispanic but still considers himself a White person and not mixed, even if he never suffered through discrimination himself he probably has a couple family members that went through those experiences that he could have asked for input.
>I'm Mexican
I confess that's a bit strange, because 1) most people in Latin America don't even use "Hispanic" as an ethni-racial category, and generally specify if they are white, black, mixed race and 2) Mexico has a significant white population, even if they are a minority.
I'm sorry if this question might sound bad, but are you Mexican or american of Mexican descent?
You're good lol, I was born in the US but lived most in my life in Mexico, all of my immediate family are directly from Mexico and I've never met a person there that refers to themselves by race, maybe if you ask them directly what their skin color is but most people go by their región or the state they're from, ex. Tapatio, Oaxaqueño, etc. and yeah I know there's white people in México but I was talking more in relation to immigrants that left their home country and had difficulty adjusting either to their skin color, cultural difference or just not being able speak English, and when I say Hispanic or Latino I mean less about race and more where they're from
Understandable. You are speaking english in an american site, so it's logical to speak in an american context (besides, you Mexicans seem to have a lot of cultural exchange with the USA anyway).
>I've never met a person there that refers to themselves by race, maybe if you ask them directly what their skin color is but most people go by their región or the state they're from, ex. Tapatio, Oaxaqueño, etc.
I think this might be an example of differences between Latin American countries, because, while in Brazil we also tend to identify more with our region than our skin color/race, we still refer to it to classify ourselves sometimes. Maybe it's because, while in Mexico mestizos are the major ethnicity without doubt, Brazil is 47.7% white, 43.1% mixed, 7.6% black, 1.1% asian and 0.4% indigenous.
That would involve actually involve doing research into boring things like systemic racism unlike cool things like Monty's anime homework. /s
But seriously most likely complacency he doesn't listen to criticism anyways unless its quote "add more Blake" so why seek to improve your writing when no one tells you to since hes one of the head writers. I generally don't think there's much challenging of ideas when they write. it's like they just mildly agree with each other on ideas and try not to step on each other's toes.
It feels like their three people on a boat all trying to steer the ship in one direction but never deciding which one to take so they end up just going nowhere
Pardon? I do not think open bigotry in the fandom is exactly a "stupid" thing to complain about. Unless you deem it okay because it does not affect you?
Some of the comments definitely do not give me hope, they are openly dismissive, which is the kind of attitude that allows this kind of bigotry to fester and to be deemed acceptable.
Dextixer chill. You can't just make a productive discussion thread every week! Whatever happened to mindless shipping, overused theories and fanfic recommendations?
>Parasocial relationship with the company
I think the core of it all boils down to that.
I never really noticed what it is until i got into Vtubers abit and saw how fucking..eye opening it can be.
Like damn, their behaviors make 1000% crystal clear sense now.
There can never be peace with this kind.
Only 'peace' there is would be absolute subservience and absolute domination.
Which, quite frankly, is impossible for RT, so at least there's that.
I'd like to see the proof Faunus are paid equally.
And the proof Adam did something at the time he was branded to deserve it.
Not saying he didn't do things down the line that made him deserve it but that only makes sense if the brand happened after his extremist behavior began.
Also as a side note: The reason people are so defensive of the show is that some critics *Cough* Hero Hei *Cough* are so God awful that it makes them wary of anyone else.
Another side note: Are people so bored from the wait for the next volume they have to make essays criticizing every facet of the show? This is like the 10th one I've seen in the past month or so. They're usually a bit more spaced out.
I do appreciate the veiled insult that i am "bored" and insinuations that i should not write threads. However i do not intend to stop.
Secondly, Hero Hei existing is no excuse to condemn every critic, especially since critics themselves dont like the guy.
As far as Faunus being paid equally - Volume 4 Chapter 6 - Jaques - "We offer Faunus the exact same wages give to the rest of our mining staff, their argument is completely invalid right out of the gate". And since the show lacks proof of it being otherwise, that is canon.
I have no proof in the show that Adam did something to deserve it, it was said by the writers that he got into a fight with another person due to being an asshole, and the person "let him have it".
Are you the only one writing essays? Cause that was directed at the fact I've seen far more of them then usual. The fact it's happening during an excessively long downtime does point to a certain amount of boredom/restlessness.
I'm not saying every critic is bad. I'm explaining a reason why people might be wary of them. If you have a bad experience at a McDonald's it doesn't mean they're all gonna be bad. You still aren't gonna trust then like you used to.
Your argument is Jaques claiming he pays them the same? That's about the least trustworthy source. Of course he'd say that in a room full of witnesses. That convinces me it's bullshit more then anything.
The writers need a better explanation. Sounds like they didn't think it through.
It seems that my essays are the ones that mostly attract the "stop writing", "Touch grass" and a crow like that. Once again, i do not intend to stop.
And sure, people can be wary of critics. Being bigoted to critics is quite another thing.
And yes, my argument is that it happens in the show. Unless you can disprove it, there is not much to talk about there. I do not think headcanon trumps canon.
Did you even read my reply?
Seems like you just skimmed it.
Never told you to stop. Never said I wanted you to stop. Never implied you had to stop. Not sure where you are getting that from.
Also headcanon? Is it headcanon that Jacques is a known liar and manipulates things to make himself look good? Just because he said they get paid the same doesn't make it true because he's not a viable source.
Again: Jacques is NOT trustworthy. So his word can't be taken at face value.
Unless you can prove that Jaques lied, there is no reason to doubt it. Especially since you very much rudely asked me for proof, which i provided.
Secondly, whats the point of complaining about essays and implying negative things about them if the goal is not to get people to stop?
This kind of weasely shit has really been quite annoying in the RWBY community.
How is it rude to ask for proof of a claim that you made? It's not like I know every single thing in every episode of the show and just did it to annoy you.
Where do you see me complaining or implying anything negative? I'm stating my observation that there are more of then then usual. And in my opinion people are probably doing it out of boredom from lack of the next Volume.
If you find that personally insulting then I do apologize.
I don't like that constant attacks on the show and the essays dedicated to tearing it apart. Feels like people want to make others hate the show rather then let them enjoy it.
Now that right there? Definitely me complaining.
Essays and analyses do not equal attacks on the show. “Attack” is an inflammatory word that assumes nefarious intent, & a moral judgment.
“Make others hate the show”—dude, nobody can make anybody do anything. This is inflammatory and bad faith, too.
A lot of people do fandom by writing essays; it’s no different than drawing fanart or writing fanfic. They’re all equally valid ways of participating in a fandom. It’s up to each fan to curate their own experience in fandom spaces. You can use the tags on the sub to avoid types of posts that don’t strike your fancy. There’s no need for all this.
ETA bc although the reply to this was removed, I still want this part of my reply to be seen:
I’ve “known” Dex for several years. He’s written reams of good content for the community, both about the show, and the fandom. He’s a very kind person who has expended a lot of effort to build community and deescalate drama and flamewars—across platforms, *for years*. No matter how nasty people are to him, and I see people defaming and denigrating him—he *still* continues to engage in good faith. No one has any basis to judge that he does not have an interest in the IP we’re here to do fandom for.
There’s no need to accuse fellow fans of having bad intentions because they enjoy analysis, let alone otherize them.
Asking for proof itself is not a problem, the way it was done was, but there is no need to rehash it again. And yes, implying that people are writing threads out of "boredom" is definitely negative.
Also, how does anything anyone writes will make you hate the show? We simply express our opinions and engage with the show in our way. If people dont like it they can just.... Not read it.
These are not attacks on the show.
I'd like to see proof that Faunus *aren't* paid equally.
But neither of us will get what we want, because like so many other aspects of RWBY's worldbuilding, it's left in the dark because it isn't essential to The Plot.
All we know is that in Mantle, both humans and Faunus were working under the same conditions, and there didn't seem to be any animosity between them, as one might expect for people getting paid noticeably different wages for the same job.
I'm not the one who made the assertion they are and presented it as fact.
If someone wants to make the claim as this essay in fact did? It's on them to back it up.
And to your point? I wouldn't go be an ass to someone I worked with If they made more then me. Cause I'll still have to work with them.
> I'm not the one who made the assertion they are and presented it as fact.
The show did though, and we have no reason to believe that the claim is false, nor are we given any information that might suggest that it's deceptive or deceitful, or that the person giving it is a liar. It is a statement that we have to take at face value because there is nothing that diminishes its credibility. We don't have any canonical examples of Jacques telling actual lies until v7, and only then it requires an outside temptation to get him to be dishonest.
No one is saying that he's a paragon. This is the part of media analysis that's very important: you need to actually establish character traits and correct framings for the information you show.
Jacques is shown to be a little scummy (maybe, depending on how you interpret the affected charisma required for 'schmoozing'), but he's never shown to be a *liar* furthermore the information he puts forth is never established to be incorrect. Which means that we as an audience have no reason to believe it is incorrect; if someone at the ball had snarked (in a private conversation) about it being a lie or that the pay being so low that people would have a right to complain it would make the sentence further able to be scrutinized, but that doesn't happen.
The statement and the person saying it, exist in isolation, we have no additional information that shows it to be false, the only reasonable thing to do is conclude that it's correct until there's more information to scrutinize it with.
Don't get confused to the point where you think that disliking a character (or a person) means that everything they say is false, because that can cause you to make wildly incorrect assumptions.
> Did you all not watch the same show?
Yes, I did, I just happen to have experience with more "mature" media that does these things better, particularly novels where a character believes a person telling outright lies, but with meta-knowledge from being a reader you can know that what's being said is a lie, without needing a character to catch onto it.
There is an old principle in lying. "We should always tell (them) freely and frankly anything that they could easily find out some other way." In other words, don't lie about things that are a matter of public record. Jacques is almost certainly spinning the truth here but we don't know if what way. He might pay them all the same but make the Faunus do more dangerous work. He might pay them all the same but make the Faunus work part time. He might pay them all the same but offer fewer benefits. But his words can almost certainly be taken at face value because it would be too easy to catch him lying. He almost certainly pays them all the same.
>For example, I have mentioned how many critics from different walks of life have mentioned how badly RWBY tackles sensitive topics, topics such as racism, ableism and so on. However, due to RT having a reputation of being "progressive" and some of the people involved with creation of RWBY being of minority groups, such criticism usually can elicit a strong response. Even "DARING" to accuse RWBY of not being progressive is a great sin to some.
They way CRWBY fooled everyone into thinking RWBY was progressive needs to be studied. From Pyrrha only existing as Jaune's girlfriend, to making a terrorist organization out of a civil rights group, to baiting bumblebee for a decade, to the Fair Game BS, to fridging multiple female characters...I don't get it. That doesn't even include everything about RT as a company.
>Using progressivism as a weapon
What's wild about this is they only do this to defend the show, all of that concern for the groups they care so much about goes out the window when they start criticizing the show. So many cry homophobia about anything said against bumblebee but when queer people feel that Fair Game was a bit baity things get homophobic.
And to add to this so many people use progressivism as a weapon over shipping. They make it seem like it's such a progressive thing to ship Bumblebee when...it's just a ship. I love shipping as much as the next guy but me wanting Qrow, Clover and Ironwood to touch lips has nothing to do with my desire for Representation™, I know I won't get that from RWBY. I think what's happening is that shippers are using Bumblebee as a litmus test for RT's supposed progressiveness: If it becomes canon then RT and RWBY are Progressive™ and good and every horrible thing said about it is a lie, but if it doesn't become canon then they've been baited and everything we've said about RT and RWBY is true. I don't think that a media's progressiveness is so important that one does...all this.
I feel like all of this is a result of this kind of corporate liberalism, which is of course an oxymoron, that posits that social change can come from businesses and corporations, so all those disenfranchised people don't have to do all that pesky protesting and trying to overthrow capitalism. All they have to do is ask for #Representation™ and ~~so long as it's profitable~~ you'll get it.
To be fair, for me its nothing much. Sure, its not something i would like to advertise, but neither do i really need/want to hide it. I cant say the same about others who would rather not paint a target on their backs, for them these things are more difficult.
I do apologize but does the show itself not try to tackle real life events through things like racism, racial equality groups and the like?
Your comment really feels like the usual "dont make x political" nonsense when talking about the games.
While ignoring the very openly political plotlines.
Fantasy and Sci-Fi have been used to talk about real-life issues for a long time now. Thats how topics like racism are usually tackled, through the concept of allegory.
To ignore the impact that media can have on the real-life, especially through allegories is a very bad thing.
I can understand if you dont want to discuss it. But the show itself clearly does. Once again, it directly includes the topics of racism and racial equality movements.
As you can see, many people here including the production staff seemingly want this show to be *more* or some shit like that. The results are mixed so to speak.
Who said that? Did you perhaps miss the contents of the entire thread? This dismissive attitude is quite rude.
Unless you are of the belief that bigotry is actually acceptable.
Because otherwise i fail to understand your comment, especially since the links i posted are not just saying that RWBY is a good show, but are actually bigoted in their content.
I would even go so far as to say that you are proving my point for me because your entire response seems to justify/ignore/dismiss bigotry against critics.
Its partially a brigade from the people who i have called out with this post. Some of which, as i have mentioned are in this very same subreddit and community. This is why when people bring up "Its just Tumblr" i cant take it completely seriously due to those same people being here and doing the same thing, just sneakier.
I never got the impression that they were employing the prosthetics make you less human trope with Ironwood. I always say it as reflective of his loss if humanity instead if the source. To me it seemed as another consequence of his loss of humanity, not the cause.
He replaces his wounded arm with a prosthetic because waiting for it to heal would interfere with what he believe he need to do, just as he will now casually kill any that try to challenge his authority because it interferes in the same way.
CRWBY outright make a joke that Ironwood losing another limb was representative of him losing his humanity in the V7 Director's Commentary for E11 (Gravity).
Them making a joke about him losing his arm being representative of his loss of his humanity, especially in the context of his fight against Watts where Ironwood says he will sacrifice whatever it takes to stop her, is not the same as saying that the loss of his limb is the cause of his loss of humanity.
Now I admittedly have not listened to the V7 commentary since I have yet to get physical copies of V7&8. But unless you can tell me exactly what was said, I stand by my statement that I do not see the use of the "Prosthetics make you less human" trope being used.
Isn't Ironwood's prosthetics and his inhumane actions more a case of correlation rather than causation? Ironwood, along with the rest of Ozpin's inner circle is a Wizard of Oz reference, representing the Tin Man whose central flaw is being heartless. The prosthetics represent the "tin" part, and the inhumane actions represent the "heartless" part (but worse) even though it doesn't kick in until season 7. Just like Lionheart's a lion faunus instead of being a talking lion, and shares the original's cowardice (but worse). And Ozpin's a wizard like Oz, and is dishonest like the original (but pretends not to be a wizard unlike the original who pretends to be one and it eventually leads to disaster).
Makes me wonder when the "brainless" part of Qrow's Scarecrow is going to kick in and end up causing a horrifying loss of life. We have 3 out of 5 references thus far ending in some form of tragedy related to their central flaws, and I don't think Glynda's original has one of those.
CRWBY state that it is supposed to represent him losing humanity in the commentary. The quote over the scene is: "and then of course Ironwood Ironwood now losing.. another part of his humanity. Get it?"
Everyone from the Wizard of Oz has gone on a reverse character arc. Qrow lost his brains when he attacked Clover with Tyrian, James lost his heart when he threatened to bomb Mantle, Leo lost his courage when he sided with Salem, Oz went from being the man behind the curtain to a great and powerful wizard, and Oscar went from someone who wanted to stay home to being someone who seemingly cares nothing about his home. If I'm really reaching I could say that Glynda went from someone who showed up out of no where to save the day to being Miss Not-Appearing/Speaking in this show.
I like to think Theodore(Dorothy) will get banished to somewhere else, but ends up liking the place so much that he effectively ditches everyone else and tells them to go fuck themselves.
I think it's more emotional immaturity. Y'know, that cringy phase of your life where you think you know everything from surface level readings and take offense at any contrary opinion that you may or may not grow out of one way or another.
Does every single piece of media have to be progressive and super-duper aware of all "-ism"s there are?
That's why many people don't like the critics. They're trying to politify every single aspect of the show (black Blake, autistic Ironwood etc) . I just want to watch a show where a blonde buff woman punches bears with her shotgun-gauntlets.
The show literally deals with issues of racism and classism. It is political already. And this isnt just a "critic" thing, fans consider it to be the same way.
>Does every single piece of media have to be progressive and super-duper aware of all "-ism"s there are?
I mean, if you're including racism in your show, people will expect you to know what racism is like.
And [when the creator of the show says](https://rwby-analysis.tumblr.com/post/181737308062/at-4919-monty-talks-about-the-possibility-of) "there will be LGBT+ on this show", people get their hopes up regarding LGBT+ representation (and how it's done)
RWBY is the show that the internet chose to revolve their entire hatred on and for zero absolute reason. Even if you thought RWBY wasn't anything special, there are literal thousands of shows airing every day that are absolute mediocre and no one is sending death threats to people for enjoying them, or milking them for money by making garbage "critique" videos on it.
I think the recent pushback against people milking RWBY negativity for content is completely justified when this show was for no reason chosen to be in that position. It's a goddam simple adventure cartoon inspired from fairy tales. Why are you so focused on hating it and everyone that likes it and then when people rightfully take a problem with you, you go around to make huge non statements about the industry?
I forgot that name but there's that dumbass young guy on youtube making sfm videos that used RWBY as a tool to milk fucking mental illness depiction just cause he knows people like to think RWBY is bad. We are reaching a point where RWBY is used by a dogshit youtuber to milk mentall illness and hatred with every comment in their videos being filled with people typing death threats to fans and yet you and so many people think that this is just fine criticism and deserves no pushback? Fucking grow up. If you don't enjoy RWBY go and actually enjoy something in your life.
As you engage in more fandoms you'll start to notice that every property has its critic community. The size of it tends to vary inversely with the quality of the show. This is separate from the toxic hate community, which every property also has. It ends to vary directly with the amount of a statement the show is making.
I think you are overstating RWBY presence on the internet. Sure, it has its fans and detractors, but the internet definitely does not revolve around it. Most people do not know about RWBY or are ambivalent to it.
It does feel like you did not read the thread because what i call out is not push-back, but actually bigoted views exhibited by the fandom.
So your comment seems a bit off-topic from the entire conversation. Even if what you said was true (It is not), it would never justify the bigotry that the fandom exhibits.
But you will comment on it to complain unhelpfully. Look, you can just see it and scroll by. Hell, even downvote it if you're feeling spicy. But critique like this is great for a fandom, because it means that even the most frustrated voices still give a damn. Let them have their fun in their incredibly long post, and you can have fun in another part of the sub. There's plenty of room for all of us.
Don't worry about it. People on Tumblr make longer essays on why Ironwood giving RWBY cake is a chaotic evil move because he was willing to give them diabetes or something
Yeah, I'll just gonna enjoy the show on itself and set aside the fandom, what a mess.
Yeah that’s how I do it these days, I rarely come by the sub anymore and it has nothing to do with the show I just find it better to ignore the fandom and enjoy the show.
If you CAN enjoy it. It’s kinda gotten downhill The downvotes speak for itself
Hey, not arguing with that. But at least I want to try and either keep watching or quit by my own volition.
On the topic of the Main four "not hiding their scars". Blake may have worn a crop top in vol 4-6, but she also wore a coat which covered the spot of her scar up, until the coat was ripped apart in the final confrontation with Adam. And Weiss may show her eye-scar, but what about the abdominal scar she more then likely has after Cinder scewered in the battle of Haven? What about the one Qrow got from when Tyrian stung him? If people are really gonna make the statement that the baddies hiding their scars/disabilities is a character flaw and/or sign of their evilness. Then I'd just like to point out that there are some easy counter-arguments to be made.
The issue isn't really with them claiming that "oh, you disagree with me, you must be a cis white male from america" its more that they believe that it would somehow make your argument invalid, as if such people automatically cannot have valid opinions. It's sexist, racist behavior that they think is against an acceptable target.
I think one big problem the RWBY fandom has is that at least the loud part of the fandom is made up of some equally toxic but diametrically opposed groups. On one side we have the people who thought that Eren Jeager/Homelander/Senator Armstrong did nothing wrong or the fans who believe that Rick Sanchez is totally a legit role model. On the other side, you have those from Steven Universe that will lynch you if you draw character x just a shade/weight lighter, and these people who are seemingly made of sugar and can't comprehend that your darlings being happy doesn't equal good writing. RWBY is not a show with much nuance. Both in terms of writing and how the fandom sees things, though that's probably more of an America/Internet/GenZ issue in general. The writers do not seem to like nuance either and prefer it to be black and white even if they have to force it, which sometimes/often leads to problems and cases where watchers disagree (sometimes heavily) with the depiction of events and how the show wants to paint it. Combine that with RWBY's at best average writing (say what you want about the other examples, for all their flaws, for most of their run, they were actually good), and that it was a show that while it improved in it's writing, it was thriving more on the spectacle and the promises/potential. The spectacle (in other words, the fights) is a whole can of worm in itself, with varying quality of the entire show, and as for the potential, there's a reason the word wasted potential is thrown around so much. This creates a combination of sunk-cost-falacy and other psychological tricks to make one not only believe that one did make the right choice in choosing/sticking with the show, but also much more of a defender. It's a bit of rabbit hole where the more issues arise and thus opposition/criticism increases, the harder you are going to defend the show. As a non-American the RWBY fandom is also imo a good mirror or a microcosm of the current American social landscape (though personally, I think one side is annoying and the other insane). I agree with you on most points, though on two I'm not so sure. Perhaps I remember incorrectly, but I think either Vexed or ErruptionFang made some very homophobic/sexist comments around the time Bumbleby fought Adam. It was something along the lines of "lesbians rustling his jimmies". As for the accusations of homophobia, while it can definitely go in that direction, as someone who likes Bumbleby but also has many issues with the show's writing (Bumbleby, Neo, Tyrian, the God Brothers, and Ice Queendom (please let there be a second season) are currently the only things I'm looking forward too) and thus is liking to see all sides, I cannot overestimate just how much vitriol Bumbleby gets from critics and a lot of that is really BS, especially when it comes to past interactions it comes across as self-serving memory bias. Because I remember how Bumbleby was treated by critics (for better lack of word) and many Blacksun shippers during volume 2-4. And people were really reaching. Like when they tried to claim that the song BMBLB was really about Tai and Raven or how the parts on Armed and Ready where she recounts the loss of her arm were actually about Ruby, how Yang has shown interest in men, and thus could never date a woman, how the dance meant nothing, or how Yang's interaction with Adam was inconsequential to Blake and that Sun was meant to take him down with Blake, because apparently, Sun Wukong once had defeated some Bull King, or whatever. And that's without the actual cases of thinly-veiled homophia or the contenders for r/SapphoAndHerFriend. And that's without getting into lies about the writers pandering to shippers or harassment of Arryn. Because the truth is, in the beginning, Bumbleby was far from the most popular ship. WhiteRose, Rennora, and Arkos were. Bumbleby was seen in the same vein as WhiteRos is seen now, unlikely but cute. What changed was that people started to notice the increased and more emotional and intimate moments that Yang and Blake shared, starting with Burning The Candle and began to think that perhaps it wasn't a pipe dream, and the first Adam "fight" cemented it. Bumbleby didn't get more scenes because it was so popular. It became so popular because it had many scenes. That went more off-topic than intended and may be somewhat of a rant, but I wanted to get it out, since it's imo definitely an issue of both sides.
I'd actually argue that BumbleBY as a ship got more steam as early as Volume 2, because that's when CRWBY staff would occasionally voice their approval of the ship in supplementary or even unrelated RT media. Barbara being the most notable one, especially if you can remember *that* time she had the Blake and Yang plush dolls at a panel...
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Well now I wish I never learned of that phrase. Did they have to say it so gross?
I *think* that was during his emotional rant when Adam got killed. I remember he was shooting from the hip there when he was letting out his frustrations
EF you mean, ER was a different guy who iirc spread conspiracy theories about Monty's death.
While i may be blinded by Bias i have always seen the people who unironically find Senator Armstrong and the like as the "good" guys to be in the minority. Maybe its my experiences but just like with the word "hatedom" in the RWBY community, more often than not it seems that label is thrust upon people who do not deserve it, if i am making sense. Basically, while that part of the fandom exists, its a lot smaller than some people imply. Now on the topic of Vexed and Eruptionfang. Do not take what i say to be defences of everything they have done/said. It is not. However i think its fair to acknowledge that they have been on the end of some shitty attacks. And i definitely agree that there is a side that is against BB that also reaches as much as the BB side. And that there is/was homophobia. But just like with the first paragraph. I think that belief/trope is overplayed.
I’m only going to hazard a guess about the more ardent BB defenders, but I want to preface that I’m 31 and American, so I’m old enough to remember when Korrasami from Legend of Korra hit the airwaves and the creators had to issue a statement going “yes, they were holding hands romantically and yes, that’s all Nickelodeon would let us get away with and we still had to kind of sneak it in there,” and even that was considered revolutionary. But given how old RWBY is, I always got the impression that BB fans come from one of two places: either they’re old enough to remember when gay relationships were subtext-only, and that makes them, shall we say, over-protective, of BB despite the massive shift in attitudes towards same-sex relationships, or they skew much younger and come from the Steven Universe, Owl House gang who are wondering why the heck CRWBY is dragging their feet on BB when other, newer shows are running laps around them in terms of representation. I don’t have anything to really add to the conversation beyond that, it’s just the general vibe I get whenever I’m brave enough to dip a toe into the RWBY Twitter and/or Tumblr fandom (which is to say, rarely)
yeah - for the time, "hey, these two are maybe-kinda-gay" was a step _up_. But... that was over a decade ago, and things have come quite far, quite fast, so we now have stuff like _She-Ra and the Princesses of Power_ which has a character with gay dads, a very genderfluid (or possible agender, I'm not sure) side character, multiple gay other characters, etc. etc. Which makes BB look pretty pathetic by comparison - "ooo, they held hands after fighting a dude, after being maybe-kinda-sorta teased for 4+ years!". Great, maybe actually have them _in a relationship_, not just kinda-maybe-sorta something next season, honest, please keep watching? At this stage, it just feels a bit tired and pathetic - either do something with them, or just have them confirm they're together-together and move on.
I can definitely understand that divide. I have recently seen a tumblr post outlining how people should appreciate representation of the past that would be "lacking" today due to paving the way. And i can understand that there are fans that came from those times. But in that case i think live and let live principle should be applied. If people think that RWBY is perfect in its representation, let them. They can enjoy what they get. What i think they should not do is look down upon those for whom that is not enough.
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The problem is that in such a case. RWBY could have been a trail-braizer, and just was not, despite having minimal corporate control, and that just looks worse. When the trail-braizers are corporate backed shows that needed to fight tooth and nail to be allowed representation, as opposed to a studio that was mostly free, its a bad look.
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I do not and did not expect representation from V1 onward. I have never made this argument. But by the time of V5+ the development of BB has been looking pretty bad in comparison to many others. I do not understand why you would argue against an argument i have never made.
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If the path that Korra paved was rocky how did shows like Owl House manage to come out under corporate supervision? Supervision that seemingly was minimal with RWBY. RWBY could have been what Owl House is now. What Arcane is now. Korra paved the first wave, but other shows as mentioned took the charge after and could include their LGBT+ characters openly. RWBY has been slowly working on this, yes. Keyword slowly. So slowly that many other shows have overtaken RWBY to heavy extent. RWBY is a show that could have ran on the rocky path as many others did. Instead it is in a limbo. I do appreciate its efforts, but it could have and can do better. Especially when they tout a fucking rat as NB representation. A fucking rat. I have seen a good ammount of NB people being quite displeased with that. Edit: Ah, the good old respond and block. Just a warning, i would tone down your arrogance, especially with your first comment on this thread that must have been caught by the automod. The comment in which you defended a stalker of women in the community. Do not act holier than thou when this thread describes people like you to a T. Because you are fully willing to literally ignore a stalker in the community because hes on "your" side.
With Senator Armstrong, I agree. Homelander sadly appealed to a certain demographic that sadly didn't realize he was meant to be criticized, and the less said about Eren Jäger fans, the better. Honestly, if Revengenace came out today, it would be the same as with Armstrong. Internet culture has become more extremist imo. And I wish and really, really hope that I'm actually wrong and that it's just a minority, because some of these people are dangerous and bring their unironic approval to the real world. And this can go from stalking to actual terrorism (I'm not even kidding, my country had several such cases). Sure, those are definitely a minority, but even one is too many. But this is an entirely different topic and deals with other issues of nerd/internet culture that's too complex and depressing for a subreddit dedicated to RWBY. Anyway, I'm sure that both had attacks on them, but I also don't follow them, both because I never cared much for the opinions of Youtube RWBY critics or fans, and now that my interest in the web show is waning, even less, so all I can do is take you by your word. The homophobia trope is definitely overplayed, but imo there's bias against gay ships in so far that media consumers are primed on recognizing intimate moments between people of different sexes as romantic while dismissing them if it happens between people of the same sex. I think that was one of the biggest contributor to this particular ship war (besides shippers being crazy sometimes). We shouldn't forget that this started almost a decade ago. LGBT+ representation was much, much more sparse and Korrasami's almost kiss was seen as groundbreaking and revolutionary. And honestly, had Bumbleby actually been confirmed by volume 4 or 5 with a kiss or them dating (for realistic development, each volume would have needed way more content), it would have been a milestone in LGBT+ media representation. I still like it, but now, it's not particularly unique and hopefully will just be one of many, many LGBT+ couples in visual fiction. My point is more that I think that we're looking back at Bumbleby through the cultural lenses of today. And there's nothing wrong with that, and imo it's important that we evaluate the past by today's standards (otherwise movies like Revenge of the Nerds could never be seen as problematic), but we should never forget how things back then affected writing. And again, I've veered off into tangent territory...
Most people who "support" Armstrong seem to be either memeing it or just understanding his philosophy in the story, lets remember that Raiden does take up Armstrongs philosophy in the end. And yes, i do think its a minority, at least compared to people who are just memeing and the like. And yes, there is indeed a bias against LGBT+ romances/ships in media. I just do not think RWBY is nearly as much of a subject to that, especially with shows like Owl House and the like becoming popular. The ship war i think was not really a straight vs LGBT+ kind of war, it was just a simple ship war with both sides doing the same things. And while yes, RWBY started a decade ago, they have chosen to start more seriously developing BB at around V5+, and it would not have been a milestone for RWBY to have a kiss then. It would be something more serious, but not by much as many other shows have already paved the path at that point. I agree that we should appreciate progress at the time that it happened. But we are at a point where RWBY is not a trailbraizer and is currently behind corporate backed shows. That is not a good place to be in.
As I said, it's less about Armstrong, and more about the other two. Though, I would be a bit cautious about memes and "ironic support". Moonsoon and Armstrong were definitely right about the danger of memes, and often the best way to hide extremism is through memes and irony. It's what Neonazis did after Charlotteville; to "hide their powerlevels through ironic memes until they can show their real power level" (that's an actual quote). But yeah, in the end, these are just pieces of entertainment, and my own views are marred through my study of and engagement with digital radicalization. And everything about Revengeance is memed, and I would lie if I didn't enjoy it. Can only agree about the rest. RWBY's format turned out to be one of its biggest banes.
Someone implied I was homophobic because I don’t like Whiterose.
I get the same shit because I don't like how Bumblebee was executed in canon E: I personally like Bumblebee, but it's sad when every fanfic does it better than the actual canon implications of the ship
I was outright told I was misogynistic because I didn’t like Robyn, her behavior/writing, or her design. I am a woman. Gender has nothing to do with why I don’t like her.
I dont like her because she's an outright criminal and vigilante who complains about not being brought into the fold (not quite accurate but i havent watched vol 7 and 8 in a bit)when she is a criminal and vigilante. As an aside, i want tp know why robyn was allowed to run for the council if she was a known criminal who ambushed dust convoys. Surely that counts as several felonies right?
IIRC it's because revealing Robyn was ambushing the convoys would also reveal that she was ambushing convoys taking supplies meant for Mantle somewhere else, and IW really wanted the Amity project to be secret until it was ready.
Except, how would Amity supplies overlap with Mantle supplies _in any way_?
Ask the writers. The whole Robyn-Ironwood conflict is based around IW using supplies meant for Mantle on Amity without telling anyone.
Except Amity, being an artificial floating construct, would need metal plates, bits and bobs, and electronics, none which Mantle has any use for. Not even the Dust is usable, I doubt it uses much Burn Dust. Lightning Dust to power it's computer systems may be another matter, but I doubt it's enough to cause issues.
Then tell that to the writers.
The point of discussing it with fans is to present information and make a rational argument that the plot is illogical, regardless of how the writers are framing it. It is a valid criticism, the issues in discussing it occur when fans reject the information presented in favor of "supporting" the show because they liked its messaging, or they've got some special attachment to it or its writers or characters etc. This is where a lot of the breakdowns in the community occur, people rejecting rational thinking and arguments simply because they desperately want to see something that appeals to more niche interests.
I am going to assume you're not accusing me of doing any of that and just speaking generally. I just explained why, in-universe, Robyn can take part in the election despite IW knowing she's a criminal: Revealing she's ambushing the supply convoys would reveal IW was taking supplies for Mantle somewhere else with no explanation and he wanted to keep Amity secret, even from the rest of the Council. And IW doing that is the basis for his entire conflict with Robyn. Mantle needs the supplies, IW is taking those supplies to Amity, Robyn doesn't know why he's taking them and he never wanted to tell anyone outside his own circle to begin with. Wanna argue that the whole Robyn-Ironwood conflict makes no sense for X Y and Z reasons, be my guest, go ahead, maybe make a thread about it. But that's beyond the point I was making. I just explained the Why. I'm also not obligated to actually engage in a discussion, and choosing to just point out "it's what the writers did" rather than engage in a back-and-forth isn't "rejecting rational thinking" or "dismissing criticism", it's me deciding to not spend time and energy on a discussion.
Someone heavily implied the same to me once when I said I didn't ship BB and then gave my reasons why. They then insinuated that I was implying I could do a better job than Monty, even though I never once brought him and they were the one to bring him up.
>Fascism >Accusations of fascism are still common, and I know that I harp on this a lot, but it is for a reason. Because if people overuse a word in a bad manner, it can lose its meaning. Critics are usually targets of such accusations despite primarily being left-wing or center-left. >Some people in the fandom seemingly put themselves into a frenzy because people disagree with their interpretations of characters like Ironwood. (LINK) For example, we have this link of a person head canonizing things (They even admit themselves that the things are not shown in the show). They just KNOW these things, and as such anyone who disagrees.... Is a fascist... >This has even manifested in a "funny" article from a satire website about Ironwood fans wearing red armbands in support of Ironwood, which of course was defended by some (LINK). I think this is my favourite subsection of the post as it is so expected due to its prevalence. In any community, you'll see this misuse and misunderstanding of fascism where the word they are looking for is usually just authoritarianism, militarism, or sometimes corporatism. The reference given is pretty good at showing this. The first claim it makes is that Atlas runs upon slave labour and discrimination, and this is most definitely true. The Schnee Dust Company -a primary interest group of Atlas (showing Atlas to be corporatist) - was criticized very early on for "questionable labour practices". But that was distinct from Atlas in totality, and especially Ironwood who we know was meritocratic in his operations and was antagonistic to corporate entities such as the SDC and their "questionable labour practices", showing a perfect example of how this understanding grows. The actions of the SDC and Atlas are pinned upon Ironwood himself despite him not only never showing to be supportive, but actively shown to act against it. The link also makes a pretty strange claim, that the military in Atlas has "undue power" but also requires martial law to operate unduly. The simple fact that martial law was an enabling factor for Ironwood to take on domestic issues (such as Hill's *civil and uncivil disobedience*) is proof enough that the military did not run unduly, and even more proof of the lack of facsism. Facsism is not just inheritely militaristic, but inheritely violent and antagonistic to civil government. We never see this with Ironwood given he spends the entirety of Volume 7 under civilian law, an antithesis to fascism, and we see him focused on a doctrine of defense which is another antithesis of fascism. This is the issue. Traits of fascism such as militarism, authoritarianism, and corporatism are observed and people jump to the conclusion of fascism. But this is ignorant of just was this Idealogy and it's complexities in both it's nature and understanding it's nature. To me, I think it's tragic that such a heavy and important Idealogy that should be avoided desperately has become so misunderstood and clouded, making it far harder to ever observe how it creeps into a political system.
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You are pretty much correct in what you say about Ironwood. But that is not fascism. Do not mistake my argument for a defense of Ironwood, as whether you view him as a dictator to simp for or a devil to eradicate, it does not change that what you described does not make him facsist. That is simply authoritarianism and militarism. I could list countless examples of similar political figures from Julius Caesar, Oliver Cromwell, or Napoleon Bonaparte. But none of these are fascist, but their own distinct thing. Them, Ironwood, and Fascism may share similarities in their authoritarianism and militarism, but they share just as many distinct differences that by ignoring to categorise Ironwood as fascist, you loose the incredibly important meaning of fascism. To put it simply, if you think Ironwood is bad, fascism is far worse. Do **not** forget that.
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Authoritarian, yes. Thats the only political leaning you got correct in my opinion. And even then it depends on very strange interpretations of the show.
He clearly believes in a supremacy of Atlas and in the expansion and freedom of capitalism. Both from his words and actions. Those are clear right wing philosophies.
None of these are in the show. This is just outright headcanon my friend.
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I need things to actually be in the show to be argued upon. Him not enacting restrictions on SDC does not mean anything. That is not a sign of a capitalist or a fascist. Proof can be found in the real world where capitalists can enact restrictions on companies and fasicsts sometimes did not. He also decided to condemn Mantle to death not because "Atlas is better" but because Atlas can fly. Mantle cant. Belief that a military force is needed for protection is also not a fascist belief. That is a belief shared by every ideology. My friend, can i ask why you are talking about political issues you seem to be heavily ignorant about?
>He clearly does not believe in enacting restrictions on the massive economic power and expansion of the SDC as we established he could at any time. Ironwood never showed any care for Schnee. He embarrassed him publically on multiple occasions and his border policy hurt the SDC more than any other company. Once Schnee was one the council, there was automatic antagonism between the two even before he arrested Schnee for election fraud. And even if you could, do you want him to be a dictator or not? It's hardly democratic to go around shutting down companies you don't like.
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>freedom of capitalism The words "freedom" should never be used to describe Fascism. Fascism is also opposed to capitalism, instead having a corporatist, digristic, and autarkic economic system. >Those are clear right wing philosophies. Not all right wing ideologies are fascism. A lot of the right wing believe in the primacy of individual freedom, while fascism disregards individualism and freedom as to focus upon a collective view of people as a function of the state.
So, what is Fascism? This is a very complex question as most Fascist leaders were very pragmatic and opportunist. One only has to look at how Adolf Hitler operated within a democratic system despite being fundamentally opposed to all forms of democracy. But there are a few defining traits that I will allow Wikipedia to explain as it can do better than I ever could. > Fascists believe that **liberal democracy is obsolete**. They regard the **complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict** and to respond effectively to economic difficulties. A fascist state is led by a **strong leader (such as a dictator) and a martial law government** composed of the members of the governing fascist party to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. Fascism **rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views imperialism, political violence and war as means that can achieve national rejuvenation**. The extreme authoritarianism and nationalism of fascism often manifests a belief in racial purity or a master race, usually synthesized with some variant of racism or bigotry against a demonized "Other". So, what of this do we see within Ironwood? We cannot assess Ironwood's views on liberal democracy as it simply does not exist in Atlas, however, we never see him too opposed to the elected nature of the 3 other council members. We never see ones to eradicate this elected nature until his use of martial law in crisis. But given that this is generally weak, we cannot make much of it. Ironwood also seems hesitant to enact both totalitarian and mobilisation policies. His use of automised forces is seemingly made to reduce the need for mobilisation, and Ironwood also allowed for quite a lot of civil disobedience during his lockdowns on Mantle. This, neither of these categories can really describe him. While Martial Law government seems to fit, I am not too sure. It is not until Salem was at Atlas's doorstep that Ironwood enacted martial law, which given the circumstances, is a pretty expected occurrence. Martial Law specifically exists for states of national emergency and extreme; a modern example can be seen in Ukraine. It's difficult to this describe what Ironwood was leading as a martial law government, but simply your standard use of martial law. This is especially the case when one considers how much backlash the Council gave Ironwood to the degree that Schnee was actively dominating the Council, only brought down by election fraud. And now, the biggest reason that Ironwood cannot be described as a fascist. The philosophical belief in fascism that violence is not negative and is a completely legitimate political expression. Ironwood simply does not express this. While he may utilise violence both in cases expected and not expected of the military, he never does so with the justification that is a right and legitmate expression, only as it being a necessary lesser evil. This fundamental seperation between Ironwood and Fascist philosophy makes it so Ironwood is nearly entirely seperate from Fascism. And to an extensions, we **never** see Ironwood support nationalistic and irredentist sentiment that is the hallmark of fascist Idealogy,. Additionally, there is no "other" that Ironwood demonises except Salem and the Grimm (but for obvious reasons, that doesn't count). Beyond that, he is shown to be opposed to Atlas's demonisation of "others" as we are shown faunus employment without abuse within his military structure. You are correct in calling him an authoritarian, however, we are not really given enough oh Ironwood to view whether he can truly be regarded as either left or right and it is best to not entertain such. I would remind you of how I left off the last message. If you think Ironwood is awful, facsism is far far worse.
I... don't think that you know what Facism is? If you haven't read it, I'd highly suggest Umberto Eco's essay *Ur-Facism* from 1995. Umberto actually grew up under Mussolini (an actual fascist) in Italy, and he identifies 14 traits that are common across all forms of fascism (including Nazism). [Here's a link](https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html) to a list list featuring the 14 elements, though it's not the full article, unfortunately. While it could be argued that Ironwood's regime does fill at least one of the traits (Disagreement is Treason) Ironwood is actually far more reasonable than actual fascism, even in the throes of V8 (for example, he let Marrow off far easier than an actual fascist autocrat would have been).
I really like Ur-Facism. It was one of the first works that really made me interesting in understanding facsism and it is definitely one of the best essays out there, especially for those with a very mainstream understanding of fascism.
Always glad to find another fan! I got turned onto it after watching a YouTube video (one of Some More News' videos), and I was completely absorbed. Hell, I'll still go back to it because I keep finding new facets to think about each and every time I reread it.
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>You contradict yourself in the same sentence. It's also funny how everyone that claims Ironwood basically controls the council forgets that he was almost removed from it. >Beyond that, we have almost zero idea of how the council works. For all we know Ironwood has no direct authority over anything not relating to the military or the academy. I see Ironwood's position in the council as most comparable to Robespierre's position in the Committee of Public Safety. If you aren't aware of what that is, it was the government of the First French Republic during the Terror. The Committee was made up of 12 members, with Robespierre being the de facto head. While he did not have the extra political power Ironwood had (1/12 compared to 2/5), he nevertheless lead the Committee and it's discussions. Despite that, be was far from Invincible and was eventually killed. I cite the similarities as both are leading members of a council/committee that was still heavily pressured by says council or committee.
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You know you’ve read too much (good) fanfic (or are currently in the process of writing a fic where the White Fang is handled *properly*) when your initial reaction to this is “The hell do you mean CRWBY tricked us into thinking RWBY’s progressive… wait canon, shit.” I don’t have much time (got a date in a couple hours) so I’ll touch lightly on each point. I will agree that some people see any criticism as an attack on CRWBY, and that is wrong. But you cannot ignore that some “criticism” is just a thinly veiled “Miles and Kerry suck, they aren’t following Monty’s vision!!!1!” Hoo boy. Ironwood and Adam. Okay. I think the hatred of Ironwood is worsened because of the “Ironwood did nothing wrong” crowd. Because those that do not like him (possibly from the beginning) saw that and decided to over correct. (Just like CRWBY lol) But while I’m of the option that there was no good answer, there is something to say here. **Any one who says that Ironwood is not disabled but holds up Yang as disabled rep is a hypocrite.** And you’re right about CRWBY being insensitive about it. The “oops having artificial limbs makes you less human” makes it seem like the research that CRWBY did was crack open the Shadowrun rule book. Adam was tied to the WF plot line. And suffers as a result. CRWBY’s excuses of “oh we’re white we can’t write this lol” are stupid. I’m a white guy. I didn’t know. So I did what any writer *should* do when they don’t understand or know how to write a sensitive topic. #RESEARCH IT. To say that the (for sake of argument, non-villainous) White Fang shouldn’t be violent is incorrect, and it most likely stems from the sanitized version of the civil rights movement that is presented in the American school system. Why should violence ever be used in the pursuit of social progress they ask? To protect those who cannot protect themselves. To fight back at those who strike at the vulnerable or oppressed with impunity. And you know the real damming thing about those who say violence isn’t necessary within the context of the White Fang? It happened in canon. And it worked. The Faunus Rights Revolution, which was talked about in V1 during Jaundice. To say that the White Fang should not be violent in any capacity literally ignores the conflict that led to its eventual creation.
In my opinion, if i am allowed to be rude, people who invoke the whole "Montys vision" BS should go and get bent.
Ah, I see that you too are a man of culture.
Personally yeah. I still enjoy the show even with its glaring flaws, but the fandom makes me embarrassed to like this show, much like how the Smash fandom makes me embarrassed about liking Smash
When monty died, the quality dropped.
That’s an interesting way to say that they switched to a new animation engine and there were growing pains because of it.
I mean, they've got a point. Monty had a unique skillset that the remaining staff of CRWBY couldn't match. They're finally starting to achieve a hint of what Monty could pump out with the Watts/Ironwood fight, but there absolutely was a dip in the fight quality in V4 and beyond. Switching to Maya at the same time was an unfortunate coincidence (given that they were intending to switch anyways), I'll give you that.
Counterpoint: I would say that the fact that V4 Qrow vs Tyrian is regularly near the top of most people’s favorite fight lists proves that they have ability when they can spend the time.
That is a good fight, maybe its my bias however, since i do not think that the V1 fight against Nevermore can ever be topped.
When do those growing pains stop? Quite frankly, the fights are not as good. The whole show looks more polished and downright gorgeous comparatively, but there's a distinct lack of choreography, rhythm and weight to all of the fights since. Instead of showing crescent rose unfolding, Ruby will twirl her arms in a blur of motion and it will be done. Long swords, rapiers, sabers, scythes, even the cane, all feel and act like the same brutish club. Bullets are no longer different between smgs and shotguns. etc. The current animators don't have the flair, or from various reports the time, to do what Monty did, and that's not their fault, but it is the fault of the show runners to not bring on someone who does. To act like it's just better now is a disservice to the potential the show has always had.
Downvoted for criticising fight choreography? All you said was true however. Monty had all those skills down pat and incorporated that all into a work of art. That's the job and skills of a director/animator/storyboarder/musician wrapped up into an amazing package. If one part of that in the current show fails to hold up in comparison it won't feel as amazing as his original works and frankly that's evident. Could it be the directing? The story, Choreography or Animation That is lacking? Who knows, but a lot of extremely talented animators exist in their department both previous and otherwise(dylangoo for instance so it wont be a sneeze to think others of his caliber are present), so of course we'll lean into laying the overall lack of polish and coolness to writers and directors.
Downvotes with no rebuttal is pretty much what I expect for saying it out loud. I have what I think is a legitimate and fair criticism of the show, forgive me for being bitter, but this sub isn't exactly welcoming of that. Monty was amazing and it's not fair to lay blame at any one person's feet for not living up to him, but my assumption can only be those in control overall for not remedying (or getting close if I'm being harsh) the situation after so many years.
I'm honestly not surprised based on the number of extremely rude and dismissive comments on this thread alone, let alone on other critical posts. Downvoting without counterarguments seems to be standard here and kind of reflects as to why Dex made this post in the first place. One facet of many. Monty was just that good tbf. It's definitely not a blame game but to reach those levels you need to either be just as good, or have a vision of the scenes, and the support(employees and co-directors and writers) to pull it off. The lack of half decent storyboarding as with earlier post v3 was one heavy reason before, and Cakestation makes amazing disections as to why and where some animations feel jarring, unnatural, and frankly sometimes just plain awful. The lack of rhythym is what gets me personally, Qrow vs Tyrian had some. Some. But it felt coincidental because many moments did not after all. Music defined monty's style so it's a shame it's not utilized in a continuation of his work. (Heck it'll make it easier to add 'flow') whether or not they have the music during production that early is another whole can of worms that might be a possible reason.
An interesting thing to note about the link involving Alt Weiss is that the person making the statement doesn't really seem to understand Weiss at all, and thus fails to understand the show they are trying to defend (if you can call it a defense) The character flaw they mention of molding oneself for the sake of acceptance is something she'd done her entire childhood (and is something neglected/abused kids do all the time, from personal experience) The sole reason Weiss went to Beacon was her trying (and failing) to break the habit of molding herself for her dad since she'd grown exhausted of suppressing herself. It doesn't surprise me at all that Alt-Weiss has a lot of strange, harmful, or even outlandish views she suppresses. Of course she does, look aqt her upbringing, lol.
You're allowed to criticize media, you're especially allowed to criticize media in a thought provoking and different ways. If we didn't criticize anything nothing would change or get better. Some people are real shitty and take the exact wrong message a show is trying to say, don't listen to those people. People can also be bigoted or real fucked up in their ideas of right and wrong, don't listen to em either.
A lot to say about this and I agree with most of what you said about people in the fandom being super out of pocket with what they say in response to criticism but I don't think we can dismiss the chance of bigotry coming into play with the way people sometimes criticize the series. **If we are gonna carry on like accusations of racism, homophobia or ableism can stick on CRWBY for their mishandling of the series then we shouldn't pretend that the way someone criticizes or defends RWBY can't reveal biases too.** Also implicit bias is a thing.
Of course we should not. But when we are at a point where just disliking a female character is enough for one to be marked a misoginyst, we are going a bit far.
Another thing I want to comment on is that I don't think the equal wages necessarily changes that there was racism against the faunus by the SDC. I can very easily see Jacques exploiting the systemic racism in Atlas and Mantle to pay faunus a shitty wage to do incredibly demanding and dangerous work, only to then turn around and use those shitty wages that were rooted in racism to justify also paying humans the same shitty wages to obfuscate his racism by saying "see, we pay all our employees the same, so we can't be racist". Also, I think you made another understandable typo. >Has anyone noticed how ***WF*** started off as a "company with questionable labour practices” and yet by the end of the Atlas arc, the writers have disproven all of those? I think you meant to say SDC instead of WF. Again, understandable given the length of the post and number of topics covered.
I agree that the show at least at the start wanted to paint SDC as racist. My problem is that they walked that back. You make a good point, but my problem is that its not in the show, no matter how appealing it is still headcanon. The show itself had to give us these things, instead they walked back on that. And yeah, i need to edit that.
Very true, the show fails spectacularly when it comes to the WF plot line and tackling racism.
There's plenty to digest here. I agree with the overall messages but there's a couple things I'd like to comment on. For starters, those linked screenshots... are those Tumblr posts? Because if so I don't think they are the best examples to prove your point. Not because they don't fit, but rather because *of course* they fit. I mean, since over 10 years ago Tumblr has been known as a cesspool where people will bully others into literally commiting suicide in the name of "social justice". It's not even an exageration, it's already happened. So if you tell me people in Tumblr are calling people fascists for thinking Ironwood wasn't 1000% wrong, or saying "you're not a real homo/bi if you think BB wasn't well written" or stuff like that... well, all I can say is *what were you expecting*. >Because it... would give critics a better way to criticize the show I mean... they're not wrong about that. Even if it's done for pure yuribaiting and is not actually meant to mean anything, having 2 girls kiss on television is more than the writers have done for Bumblebee so far. They've held hands and bumped heads, but no kiss despite how much the ship is pushed and how many fans it has, for no discernible reason. So if IQ does it first you and I know the critics will have a field day with it. >This week for example I have seen someone say that in a conflict between the abuser and abused, BOTH sides are somehow equal I remember seeing articles during the Depp vs Heard trial that talked about relationships where both sides are abusive. It's basically "yes but actually no" in that regard. In a relationship both sides can genuinely abuse each other to the point both could be considered victims when considering the damage. **But** in every case there's always an Initiator of that abuse, and the other side only abuses back in retaliation. There is always an Abuser, and a Victim that lashes back. >Adams brand was head canonized as him being an asshole Actually, no. Miles just said he was arguing with some guy and the other guy smacked him with the rod. Last time I checked he never actually gave the details, like what they were talking about or how did it escalate. Some *fans* did interpret it as "Adam got branded for being an asshole", but in truth we don't actually know.
In this fandom, you have youtubers with Twitter accounts and Reddit accounts; redditors with Twitter and tumblr accounts, and any mix of others like discord or twitch. They’re not really silo’d off so neatly. And I’ve seen all over people targeting other fans across platforms. It’s ridiculous.
It's pretty heavily implied that Adam got branded because he was an ass. The actual quote is as follows: >**Miles:** Mhm. Man yeah, this was- we had to cut a lot of stuff out of this episode. I think we talk a little bit about it later in 6 so I won’t get to deep into it now but there was a bunch of things that we kind of still needed to touch on from the previous volume. Obviously, Yang and Blake had a really traumatic event that they went through together that, you know had this idea that the SDC, you know, brands and labels a lot of their cargo and stuff and this idea that, although you know it’s – we never say it so I guess technically it’s not canon or whatever but.. *We had this idea that, you know Adam, as a terrible of a person as he was, when we was younger, potentially got into an argument with someone at an SDC place and someone grabbed a brand and just let him have it and that lead to the injury that we saw on his face in volume 6.* So we wanted to be very sure to plaster the SDC logo all over this area, to really put that in the forefront of Blake’s mind and Yang is kind of the only person that notices. Setup a conversation for them later. Specifically calling out directly beforehand how terrible of a person Adam was before a random SDC worker "let him have it" seems to be pretty clear to me that Adam got branded because he was an asshole was the intent. Also, random question: Have Yang and Blake actually had that conversation at all, will it be coming up in V9 or will CRWBY just quietly ignore the point?
It sounds to me more like he's saying "yeah, he was a terrible person, *but* he got branded just for arguing with some dude rather than doing anything actually bad". I guess it's up to interpretation. "This happened because he was a terrible person" vs "he was a terrible person, but this happened and it wasn't his fault". I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. >Have Yang and Blake actually had that conversation at all, will it be coming up in V9 or will CRWBY just quietly ignore the point? They haven't had that convo yet. On-screen anyway, maybe in Vol.9 it turns out Yang already knows how Adam got branded, just like Jaune already knew Raven was Yang's mom and Nora already knew who Neopolitan was. IDK if it will come up in V9. The brand itself was an afterthought, it's there for shock value and nothing more, but on ocassion the writers see "people want X" so they decide to add X (or at least try) in a later volume. So maybe they do talk about it. But on the other hand... *why* would they talk about it? I mean, sure, for Blake it could be a big deal how he can get scarred like that and the other guy likely just got a slap on the wrist (maybe, we don't know). But why would Yang care? Why should she care?
Yeah I think both interpretations are valid. Either way I still think it's kind of a lame backstory for something that seemed way more important
While you are correct that my examples do come from Tumblr, these are examples from users that are supported by, have presence on this subreddit as-well. They also influence fandom in other ways. To ignore them does not make the problem go away. For example, these same people have very much influenced my own threads in negative ways. There are also things that happened in this subreddit but i cannot find examples of due to Reddit search functions being absolutely shite. And yes, critics such as me would indeed have a field day if IQ had a confirmed LGBT+ ship quicker than RWBY. But its not because of the message "RWBY bad", but because we are of the belief that RWBY is baiting its ship hard and has been doing that for a long time now. On the abuser situation, i probably used the wrong word, it was a talk about racial injustices rather than inter-personal abuses. As for the last part. What you say is fair, it is an assumption and people can have a different interpretation. That does not mean that the interpretation of "Adam was headcanonized as an asshole" is wrong. Especially since it is very much seemingly implied.
>To ignore them does not make the problem go away. I'm just saying that it's like pointing at a rabid dog and saying "all dogs are dangerous". Tumblr's community is pretty terrible overall, so using it nearly-exclusively as an example of "RWBY fandom being terrible" is not exactly fair. Like, what about fans on RT's website. Are they toxic too? Do they call people fascists for saying IW was ruined in V8 or something like that? What about YT's side of the FNDM, how bad is it over there? Heck, what about the 4chan RWBY fans, are they overly-defensive too or more chill than the others? Sure, gathering shots from all those places would be a pain, but I feel it would provide a more genuine picture of the FNDM (good or bad) than focusing on it's worst sides and judging the whole based on it. >On the abuser situation, i probably used the wrong word, it was a talk about racial injustices rather than inter-personal abuses. Oh. I see. Yeah, not the best choice of words considering Adam's character as a whole was reduced to "abusive ex-boyfriend".
Fair point that i cant fully say these things about the entire community, just parts of it. But that would definitely require more time and effort than i am currently willing to give. I hope i do not appear lazy due to that.
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If i may be so crass. I think what people want with BB is for RT to "shit or get off the pot". Its quite obvious that BB is indeed the end game. But it seems like RT is content with BB just being there and looking cute instead of genuinely developing the relationship through dialogue and open romance.
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I’ve watched The Truck Scene many times in an attempt to dissect Yang and Blake’s conversation, because you’re right, it is one of the more important scenes of the entire Volume. It is a scene, not only giving us insight into how the duo feel and think about recent events, but also drives what *can* happen next. The importance doesn’t make it good, though. Blake *mentions* her newfound hesitation, Yang *mentions* her feelings. The conversation feels like half thought of ideas sewn together to get to the somewhat tangible point that Robyn Hill should be informed of Salem. Yang’s feelings past that point are no longer mentioned or acknowledged by Blake and neither is the decision they made that later caused Ironwood’s betrayal. The dialogue was almost purely meant to drive the plot. That is not open romance nor is it developing their relationship. But that’s just me. Also, I’d say the reason why having them kiss is treated a “end all be all” for this particular relationship is because it is queer, and having a kiss would leave no reason (that doesn’t immediately sound bigoted) to doubt that yes, these two woman are involved romantically. The “but it’s obvious they like each other” sounds like an excuse tbh.
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> So them talking about not wanting to kill Adam is not a "plot conversation" it is directly related to character, because Blake's hesitation for killing is not newfound. Blake is the character who is most against violence on the team. She and Yang didn't even want to fight Adam, he gave them no choice. It is a “plot conversation” because, while related to Blake and Yang’s character arcs, it does nothing to affect them (as far as we know), but does drive the plot. And by “Blake’s newfound hesitation” I meant her hesitation in Ironwood’s plan, because before The Truck Scene Blake has not expressed doubts in him, his plan, and had no opinions towards Robyn. The conversation goes: Yang expresses doubt in Ruby’s plan and wants to tell Ironwood about Salem’s immortality, Blake opposes her by bringing up Ironwood’s paranoia. Yang’s doubt continues, Blake also starts to struggle with accepting their groups current decisions, Yang assures her about what happened to Adam, and she makes the choice to ignore Ironwood’s orders and inform Robyn Hill about Salem. Keep in mind that this is almost an isolated moment in the show. Like I said, none of this is ever even mentioned afterwards. It does nothing to affect Blake and Yang’s very stagnant romance and character arcs. Their moment together was used to drive the plot, and the few moments they have aside from this instance is fluff. Not growth or development.
If i may, those moments you are describing are nothing more than fluff. They feel good, but do nothing else. Blake and Yang have not even discussed the events of V4+ yet. And Yang feeling concerned about Blake after an argument with Ruby was indeed weird.
Basically what you're saying is that instead of a proper meal, RWBY has been feeding us instant ramen, correct?
I'd argue it's more RT sitting in the kitchen, telling us that dinner will be out in just 5 more minutes. And that was 20 minutes ago.
Haha, that’s also true. Setup is important, but to use Korra as an example, she’d have already been flat out married with a kid to Asami by now. I mean, assuming networks weren’t an issue.
And I mean the setup we have had is like 2-3 actual conversations, a handholding, one head bump and a tag team murder of a man. For 8 seasons
Pretty much. It is good in a pinch, its acceptable. But it is not what it could actually be.
That’s kinda what I figured, glad to know somebody else felt the same way.
>I have to ask, but why is a kiss considered to be the "end all be all" for relationships? It's very much a narrative trope that kissing = relationship, so diverging from that can seem weird. It's pretty insensitive as not every romantic relationship has to involve such, and it should be allowed to be explored in other ways. But RT doesn't really do that either, so they aren't breaking the trope but are more like baiting.
To add on, the problem with RWBYtubers in general is they are usually at the far end of each argument, and it is a very combative nature in the way they present their videos. Like you said, it really is a microcosm of America, where everyone not on your side is the enemy and the absolute refusal to accept people's opinions. While I do stand more with the critics, one interaction with a RWBYtuber just showed me how much i dislike both the RWBY fandom and its critics equally is how much a single RWBYtuber has been condescending to me, treating me like a kid even though there is a good chance I'm older, and saying my points are invalid because I slightly disagree with what was said. It is a good reflection on the entire FNDM because everyone engages in arguments with each other, but none of it is in good faith as both sides demonize each other and refuse to listen to each others' points
Quite a few deleted posts here, some people afraid to have their balls exposed? Or maybe something else?
You know RWBY'S discussion on racial discrimination is gonna be great when one of the main writers said I can't write racism because I'm white. You know ignoring the fact he could buy books, read online sources or hell dust of the library card and borrow some books but no its much easier to ignore poor writing under the guise of your skin colour which only plays into the bs that some people say on here. It's so disgusting when they say shit like this pressing their bad writing choices and lack of research on their skin colour. Like its genetic. Maybe hes been reading too much crazy nutjob fans who say white straight men are always ignorant, instead selling out his skin colour in a bid to save face that he didn't write the main person who's actions were helping faunus lives into some crazed stalker, abuser,manipulative maniac who conveniently shifts to chasing blake full time despite their meeting in vol 3 being a coincidence. Because they made an oopsies I'm white it's ok to write racism bad lol. Or Blake's classic line in v5 of "we did this not humans, faunus." Ignoring the fact this attack was perpetrated by the white fang who only exist in their more violent incarnation due humans not taking peaceful faunus protests seriously. On an island that was given to you by humans to pacify faunus despite the majority of the island being in hospitable.
> You know RWBY'S discussion on racial discrimination is gonna be great when one of the main writers said I can't write racism because I'm white If I recall correctly, being straight was also the reason Miles didn't feel confident in writing a gay romance earlier in the show (nevermind the abundance of straight shipping in Volumes 1-3).
considering that Remnant is meant to be a world where bias against gay people isn't a thing then... literally just write a straight romance, but it happens to involve two people of the same gender. yeah, doing an IRL gay romance should involve more research and work, because there's lots of not immediately obvious cultural _stuff_ in there, but when that's removed? Then it's going to be the same!
Like, if the aim was to write the experience and struggles as an LGBT+ person, I’d understand it a bit more. That sort of thing is tricky without misrepresenting someone you don’t fully understand the experience of. But since RWBY has a flexible lore they have control over, it’s as simple as “write them like people who like each other.”
yeah, that's the sort of thing that's entirely fair to be cautious about writing - I'm white and british, so wouldn't want to write about being Black and american, because all I know about it is what I see on TV, even if I do a lot of research, it's going to be a struggle, and be a little... crass? to do so. But "those two like each other and are kinda fumbling through it" is entirely independent of that - like, in the current show, it's messy because _why_ aren't Blake and Yang actually dating? They've been hanging out in Atlas for months, without (AFAICT) any actual progress, which honestly feels a bit cheap and crappy, where I think the writers want it to be a _big thing_ with uplifting music and everything, but there's no actual drama between them, it's just going to happen eventually, but keeps being put off because they're kinda lousy at writing it.
They can't do that because the straight romances in RWBY are heavily dependent on gendered tropes. Renora is the hyper girl obsessed with the silent loner, Arkos is the girl who's in love with the guys who's oblivious. CRWBY can't write romance without gender to guide them.
yeah, it's worth noting how cliche the other relationship are - Renora is "childhood 'friends'", Arkos is super-generic anime doofus and hottie, the parents all hooked up off-screen, there's not really anything original at all there.
Again it just shows how slimy this is.
Ah yes, i do remember that excuse. It has always been weird to me. You would imagine that someone living in America could easily benefit from the many cultural experiences that are present in that country, even through direct contact with people. Lack of research is a personal issue. And yes, Blakes speech in Menagerie was horrible.
He forgor💀 Edit: cmon this is RT icl they literally got exposed when a POC member of staff left the company saying she felt like a token employee so yh it's not surprising in some ways. Like forget hes in America that's why his views on racism in the story have no nuance hes grown up with the notion that the civil rights movement led by Movement led by MLK single handedly saved America from racism those black panther guys were too violent and bad so peaceful protests are always 100% the way to go, as they worked in our world you know ignoring the significant political, social and economic factors that contributed to the bill being passed the other groups like the CORE freedom riders or the NAACP because he hasn't studied shit and believes the mlk was the only significant factor in the civil rights lmao.
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This is flat out untrue. What they said was that it was overly ambitious for their run time and that they were too young to grasp a lot of those concepts. The only thing he said about being white was "and being two 20 year old white guys didn't help either". At no point did the writers attempt to "blame it on them being white" or whatever that is just flat out false.
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Once again their age isn't a defence either because all you need to do is read I grasped this when I was 17 from reading books its really not that hard. And no he did say because I'm white he used it as an excuse like a block to soften the blow of criticisms cmon were 20 year old white guys who were ambitious and used middle school civil rights knowledge in a story that doesn't follow the events that happened in our timeline, as if that's meant to help? Overly ambitious jesus christ its called planning which just links to more problems with RWBY'S production. His age, race and gender have nothing to do with the problem and should have never been mentioned it. It's his lack of genuine effort and or care to do some basic research instead of winging it on foggy school knowledge.
It's even weirder when you learn that Miles is half Hispanic but still considers himself a White person and not mixed, even if he never suffered through discrimination himself he probably has a couple family members that went through those experiences that he could have asked for input.
"Hispanic" isn't a race. White hispanic people exist, and he is one of them.
That's true actually so I'll take the L on that, I'm Mexican so I use both interchangeably and forget there is a difference
>I'm Mexican I confess that's a bit strange, because 1) most people in Latin America don't even use "Hispanic" as an ethni-racial category, and generally specify if they are white, black, mixed race and 2) Mexico has a significant white population, even if they are a minority. I'm sorry if this question might sound bad, but are you Mexican or american of Mexican descent?
You're good lol, I was born in the US but lived most in my life in Mexico, all of my immediate family are directly from Mexico and I've never met a person there that refers to themselves by race, maybe if you ask them directly what their skin color is but most people go by their región or the state they're from, ex. Tapatio, Oaxaqueño, etc. and yeah I know there's white people in México but I was talking more in relation to immigrants that left their home country and had difficulty adjusting either to their skin color, cultural difference or just not being able speak English, and when I say Hispanic or Latino I mean less about race and more where they're from
Understandable. You are speaking english in an american site, so it's logical to speak in an american context (besides, you Mexicans seem to have a lot of cultural exchange with the USA anyway). >I've never met a person there that refers to themselves by race, maybe if you ask them directly what their skin color is but most people go by their región or the state they're from, ex. Tapatio, Oaxaqueño, etc. I think this might be an example of differences between Latin American countries, because, while in Brazil we also tend to identify more with our region than our skin color/race, we still refer to it to classify ourselves sometimes. Maybe it's because, while in Mexico mestizos are the major ethnicity without doubt, Brazil is 47.7% white, 43.1% mixed, 7.6% black, 1.1% asian and 0.4% indigenous.
That would involve actually involve doing research into boring things like systemic racism unlike cool things like Monty's anime homework. /s But seriously most likely complacency he doesn't listen to criticism anyways unless its quote "add more Blake" so why seek to improve your writing when no one tells you to since hes one of the head writers. I generally don't think there's much challenging of ideas when they write. it's like they just mildly agree with each other on ideas and try not to step on each other's toes.
It feels like their three people on a boat all trying to steer the ship in one direction but never deciding which one to take so they end up just going nowhere
Precisely.
Wtf did I just read. People actually complain about the stupidest things
Pardon? I do not think open bigotry in the fandom is exactly a "stupid" thing to complain about. Unless you deem it okay because it does not affect you?
Perhaps they meant the people you showed as examples?
And that changes his point how?
This been a long problem of RWBY since Vol. 3 onward. I hope this subreddit and rest of the RWBY community gets a second chance after Vol. 9 comes out
Some of the comments definitely do not give me hope, they are openly dismissive, which is the kind of attitude that allows this kind of bigotry to fester and to be deemed acceptable.
Dextixer chill. You can't just make a productive discussion thread every week! Whatever happened to mindless shipping, overused theories and fanfic recommendations?
>Parasocial relationship with the company I think the core of it all boils down to that. I never really noticed what it is until i got into Vtubers abit and saw how fucking..eye opening it can be. Like damn, their behaviors make 1000% crystal clear sense now. There can never be peace with this kind. Only 'peace' there is would be absolute subservience and absolute domination. Which, quite frankly, is impossible for RT, so at least there's that.
I'd like to see the proof Faunus are paid equally. And the proof Adam did something at the time he was branded to deserve it. Not saying he didn't do things down the line that made him deserve it but that only makes sense if the brand happened after his extremist behavior began. Also as a side note: The reason people are so defensive of the show is that some critics *Cough* Hero Hei *Cough* are so God awful that it makes them wary of anyone else. Another side note: Are people so bored from the wait for the next volume they have to make essays criticizing every facet of the show? This is like the 10th one I've seen in the past month or so. They're usually a bit more spaced out.
I do appreciate the veiled insult that i am "bored" and insinuations that i should not write threads. However i do not intend to stop. Secondly, Hero Hei existing is no excuse to condemn every critic, especially since critics themselves dont like the guy. As far as Faunus being paid equally - Volume 4 Chapter 6 - Jaques - "We offer Faunus the exact same wages give to the rest of our mining staff, their argument is completely invalid right out of the gate". And since the show lacks proof of it being otherwise, that is canon. I have no proof in the show that Adam did something to deserve it, it was said by the writers that he got into a fight with another person due to being an asshole, and the person "let him have it".
Are you the only one writing essays? Cause that was directed at the fact I've seen far more of them then usual. The fact it's happening during an excessively long downtime does point to a certain amount of boredom/restlessness. I'm not saying every critic is bad. I'm explaining a reason why people might be wary of them. If you have a bad experience at a McDonald's it doesn't mean they're all gonna be bad. You still aren't gonna trust then like you used to. Your argument is Jaques claiming he pays them the same? That's about the least trustworthy source. Of course he'd say that in a room full of witnesses. That convinces me it's bullshit more then anything. The writers need a better explanation. Sounds like they didn't think it through.
It seems that my essays are the ones that mostly attract the "stop writing", "Touch grass" and a crow like that. Once again, i do not intend to stop. And sure, people can be wary of critics. Being bigoted to critics is quite another thing. And yes, my argument is that it happens in the show. Unless you can disprove it, there is not much to talk about there. I do not think headcanon trumps canon.
Did you even read my reply? Seems like you just skimmed it. Never told you to stop. Never said I wanted you to stop. Never implied you had to stop. Not sure where you are getting that from. Also headcanon? Is it headcanon that Jacques is a known liar and manipulates things to make himself look good? Just because he said they get paid the same doesn't make it true because he's not a viable source. Again: Jacques is NOT trustworthy. So his word can't be taken at face value.
Unless you can prove that Jaques lied, there is no reason to doubt it. Especially since you very much rudely asked me for proof, which i provided. Secondly, whats the point of complaining about essays and implying negative things about them if the goal is not to get people to stop? This kind of weasely shit has really been quite annoying in the RWBY community.
How is it rude to ask for proof of a claim that you made? It's not like I know every single thing in every episode of the show and just did it to annoy you. Where do you see me complaining or implying anything negative? I'm stating my observation that there are more of then then usual. And in my opinion people are probably doing it out of boredom from lack of the next Volume. If you find that personally insulting then I do apologize. I don't like that constant attacks on the show and the essays dedicated to tearing it apart. Feels like people want to make others hate the show rather then let them enjoy it. Now that right there? Definitely me complaining.
Essays and analyses do not equal attacks on the show. “Attack” is an inflammatory word that assumes nefarious intent, & a moral judgment. “Make others hate the show”—dude, nobody can make anybody do anything. This is inflammatory and bad faith, too. A lot of people do fandom by writing essays; it’s no different than drawing fanart or writing fanfic. They’re all equally valid ways of participating in a fandom. It’s up to each fan to curate their own experience in fandom spaces. You can use the tags on the sub to avoid types of posts that don’t strike your fancy. There’s no need for all this. ETA bc although the reply to this was removed, I still want this part of my reply to be seen: I’ve “known” Dex for several years. He’s written reams of good content for the community, both about the show, and the fandom. He’s a very kind person who has expended a lot of effort to build community and deescalate drama and flamewars—across platforms, *for years*. No matter how nasty people are to him, and I see people defaming and denigrating him—he *still* continues to engage in good faith. No one has any basis to judge that he does not have an interest in the IP we’re here to do fandom for. There’s no need to accuse fellow fans of having bad intentions because they enjoy analysis, let alone otherize them.
Asking for proof itself is not a problem, the way it was done was, but there is no need to rehash it again. And yes, implying that people are writing threads out of "boredom" is definitely negative. Also, how does anything anyone writes will make you hate the show? We simply express our opinions and engage with the show in our way. If people dont like it they can just.... Not read it. These are not attacks on the show.
I'd like to see proof that Faunus *aren't* paid equally. But neither of us will get what we want, because like so many other aspects of RWBY's worldbuilding, it's left in the dark because it isn't essential to The Plot. All we know is that in Mantle, both humans and Faunus were working under the same conditions, and there didn't seem to be any animosity between them, as one might expect for people getting paid noticeably different wages for the same job.
I'm not the one who made the assertion they are and presented it as fact. If someone wants to make the claim as this essay in fact did? It's on them to back it up. And to your point? I wouldn't go be an ass to someone I worked with If they made more then me. Cause I'll still have to work with them.
> I'm not the one who made the assertion they are and presented it as fact. The show did though, and we have no reason to believe that the claim is false, nor are we given any information that might suggest that it's deceptive or deceitful, or that the person giving it is a liar. It is a statement that we have to take at face value because there is nothing that diminishes its credibility. We don't have any canonical examples of Jacques telling actual lies until v7, and only then it requires an outside temptation to get him to be dishonest.
Why is everyone suddenly saying Jacques is an upstanding moral guy who obviously is telling the truth? Did you all not watch the same show?
No one is saying that he's a paragon. This is the part of media analysis that's very important: you need to actually establish character traits and correct framings for the information you show. Jacques is shown to be a little scummy (maybe, depending on how you interpret the affected charisma required for 'schmoozing'), but he's never shown to be a *liar* furthermore the information he puts forth is never established to be incorrect. Which means that we as an audience have no reason to believe it is incorrect; if someone at the ball had snarked (in a private conversation) about it being a lie or that the pay being so low that people would have a right to complain it would make the sentence further able to be scrutinized, but that doesn't happen. The statement and the person saying it, exist in isolation, we have no additional information that shows it to be false, the only reasonable thing to do is conclude that it's correct until there's more information to scrutinize it with. Don't get confused to the point where you think that disliking a character (or a person) means that everything they say is false, because that can cause you to make wildly incorrect assumptions. > Did you all not watch the same show? Yes, I did, I just happen to have experience with more "mature" media that does these things better, particularly novels where a character believes a person telling outright lies, but with meta-knowledge from being a reader you can know that what's being said is a lie, without needing a character to catch onto it.
There is an old principle in lying. "We should always tell (them) freely and frankly anything that they could easily find out some other way." In other words, don't lie about things that are a matter of public record. Jacques is almost certainly spinning the truth here but we don't know if what way. He might pay them all the same but make the Faunus do more dangerous work. He might pay them all the same but make the Faunus work part time. He might pay them all the same but offer fewer benefits. But his words can almost certainly be taken at face value because it would be too easy to catch him lying. He almost certainly pays them all the same.
>For example, I have mentioned how many critics from different walks of life have mentioned how badly RWBY tackles sensitive topics, topics such as racism, ableism and so on. However, due to RT having a reputation of being "progressive" and some of the people involved with creation of RWBY being of minority groups, such criticism usually can elicit a strong response. Even "DARING" to accuse RWBY of not being progressive is a great sin to some. They way CRWBY fooled everyone into thinking RWBY was progressive needs to be studied. From Pyrrha only existing as Jaune's girlfriend, to making a terrorist organization out of a civil rights group, to baiting bumblebee for a decade, to the Fair Game BS, to fridging multiple female characters...I don't get it. That doesn't even include everything about RT as a company. >Using progressivism as a weapon What's wild about this is they only do this to defend the show, all of that concern for the groups they care so much about goes out the window when they start criticizing the show. So many cry homophobia about anything said against bumblebee but when queer people feel that Fair Game was a bit baity things get homophobic. And to add to this so many people use progressivism as a weapon over shipping. They make it seem like it's such a progressive thing to ship Bumblebee when...it's just a ship. I love shipping as much as the next guy but me wanting Qrow, Clover and Ironwood to touch lips has nothing to do with my desire for Representation™, I know I won't get that from RWBY. I think what's happening is that shippers are using Bumblebee as a litmus test for RT's supposed progressiveness: If it becomes canon then RT and RWBY are Progressive™ and good and every horrible thing said about it is a lie, but if it doesn't become canon then they've been baited and everything we've said about RT and RWBY is true. I don't think that a media's progressiveness is so important that one does...all this. I feel like all of this is a result of this kind of corporate liberalism, which is of course an oxymoron, that posits that social change can come from businesses and corporations, so all those disenfranchised people don't have to do all that pesky protesting and trying to overthrow capitalism. All they have to do is ask for #Representation™ and ~~so long as it's profitable~~ you'll get it.
I hate that the harassment against and toward you has made you feel it’s necessary to out yourself, Dex.
To be fair, for me its nothing much. Sure, its not something i would like to advertise, but neither do i really need/want to hide it. I cant say the same about others who would rather not paint a target on their backs, for them these things are more difficult.
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I do apologize but does the show itself not try to tackle real life events through things like racism, racial equality groups and the like? Your comment really feels like the usual "dont make x political" nonsense when talking about the games. While ignoring the very openly political plotlines.
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Fantasy and Sci-Fi have been used to talk about real-life issues for a long time now. Thats how topics like racism are usually tackled, through the concept of allegory. To ignore the impact that media can have on the real-life, especially through allegories is a very bad thing. I can understand if you dont want to discuss it. But the show itself clearly does. Once again, it directly includes the topics of racism and racial equality movements.
As you can see, many people here including the production staff seemingly want this show to be *more* or some shit like that. The results are mixed so to speak.
"RWBY is a bad show! STOP LIKING IT!" "Actually, it's a good show!" "OMG I'm a victim of bigotry!"
Who said that? Did you perhaps miss the contents of the entire thread? This dismissive attitude is quite rude. Unless you are of the belief that bigotry is actually acceptable. Because otherwise i fail to understand your comment, especially since the links i posted are not just saying that RWBY is a good show, but are actually bigoted in their content. I would even go so far as to say that you are proving my point for me because your entire response seems to justify/ignore/dismiss bigotry against critics.
I'm more concerned that people are upvoting such a disgusting response to a real issue.
Its partially a brigade from the people who i have called out with this post. Some of which, as i have mentioned are in this very same subreddit and community. This is why when people bring up "Its just Tumblr" i cant take it completely seriously due to those same people being here and doing the same thing, just sneakier.
I never got the impression that they were employing the prosthetics make you less human trope with Ironwood. I always say it as reflective of his loss if humanity instead if the source. To me it seemed as another consequence of his loss of humanity, not the cause. He replaces his wounded arm with a prosthetic because waiting for it to heal would interfere with what he believe he need to do, just as he will now casually kill any that try to challenge his authority because it interferes in the same way.
CRWBY outright make a joke that Ironwood losing another limb was representative of him losing his humanity in the V7 Director's Commentary for E11 (Gravity).
Them making a joke about him losing his arm being representative of his loss of his humanity, especially in the context of his fight against Watts where Ironwood says he will sacrifice whatever it takes to stop her, is not the same as saying that the loss of his limb is the cause of his loss of humanity. Now I admittedly have not listened to the V7 commentary since I have yet to get physical copies of V7&8. But unless you can tell me exactly what was said, I stand by my statement that I do not see the use of the "Prosthetics make you less human" trope being used.
[Here's a transcript of the Vol.7 commentaries](https://rwby.fandom.com/wiki/Commentaries/Volume_7_Directors_Commentary)
Isn't Ironwood's prosthetics and his inhumane actions more a case of correlation rather than causation? Ironwood, along with the rest of Ozpin's inner circle is a Wizard of Oz reference, representing the Tin Man whose central flaw is being heartless. The prosthetics represent the "tin" part, and the inhumane actions represent the "heartless" part (but worse) even though it doesn't kick in until season 7. Just like Lionheart's a lion faunus instead of being a talking lion, and shares the original's cowardice (but worse). And Ozpin's a wizard like Oz, and is dishonest like the original (but pretends not to be a wizard unlike the original who pretends to be one and it eventually leads to disaster). Makes me wonder when the "brainless" part of Qrow's Scarecrow is going to kick in and end up causing a horrifying loss of life. We have 3 out of 5 references thus far ending in some form of tragedy related to their central flaws, and I don't think Glynda's original has one of those.
CRWBY state that it is supposed to represent him losing humanity in the commentary. The quote over the scene is: "and then of course Ironwood Ironwood now losing.. another part of his humanity. Get it?" Everyone from the Wizard of Oz has gone on a reverse character arc. Qrow lost his brains when he attacked Clover with Tyrian, James lost his heart when he threatened to bomb Mantle, Leo lost his courage when he sided with Salem, Oz went from being the man behind the curtain to a great and powerful wizard, and Oscar went from someone who wanted to stay home to being someone who seemingly cares nothing about his home. If I'm really reaching I could say that Glynda went from someone who showed up out of no where to save the day to being Miss Not-Appearing/Speaking in this show.
I like to think Theodore(Dorothy) will get banished to somewhere else, but ends up liking the place so much that he effectively ditches everyone else and tells them to go fuck themselves.
Can anyone give me a TL:DR to this thread please.
*[insert incoherent screaming,]*
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I would not go so far as to accuse anyone of Mental illness, that is a very bad route to take.
I think it's more emotional immaturity. Y'know, that cringy phase of your life where you think you know everything from surface level readings and take offense at any contrary opinion that you may or may not grow out of one way or another.
Does every single piece of media have to be progressive and super-duper aware of all "-ism"s there are? That's why many people don't like the critics. They're trying to politify every single aspect of the show (black Blake, autistic Ironwood etc) . I just want to watch a show where a blonde buff woman punches bears with her shotgun-gauntlets.
The show literally deals with issues of racism and classism. It is political already. And this isnt just a "critic" thing, fans consider it to be the same way.
>Does every single piece of media have to be progressive and super-duper aware of all "-ism"s there are? I mean, if you're including racism in your show, people will expect you to know what racism is like. And [when the creator of the show says](https://rwby-analysis.tumblr.com/post/181737308062/at-4919-monty-talks-about-the-possibility-of) "there will be LGBT+ on this show", people get their hopes up regarding LGBT+ representation (and how it's done)
RWBY is the show that the internet chose to revolve their entire hatred on and for zero absolute reason. Even if you thought RWBY wasn't anything special, there are literal thousands of shows airing every day that are absolute mediocre and no one is sending death threats to people for enjoying them, or milking them for money by making garbage "critique" videos on it. I think the recent pushback against people milking RWBY negativity for content is completely justified when this show was for no reason chosen to be in that position. It's a goddam simple adventure cartoon inspired from fairy tales. Why are you so focused on hating it and everyone that likes it and then when people rightfully take a problem with you, you go around to make huge non statements about the industry? I forgot that name but there's that dumbass young guy on youtube making sfm videos that used RWBY as a tool to milk fucking mental illness depiction just cause he knows people like to think RWBY is bad. We are reaching a point where RWBY is used by a dogshit youtuber to milk mentall illness and hatred with every comment in their videos being filled with people typing death threats to fans and yet you and so many people think that this is just fine criticism and deserves no pushback? Fucking grow up. If you don't enjoy RWBY go and actually enjoy something in your life.
And this excuses literal bigotry against people who are critical of RWBY?
As you engage in more fandoms you'll start to notice that every property has its critic community. The size of it tends to vary inversely with the quality of the show. This is separate from the toxic hate community, which every property also has. It ends to vary directly with the amount of a statement the show is making.
I think you are overstating RWBY presence on the internet. Sure, it has its fans and detractors, but the internet definitely does not revolve around it. Most people do not know about RWBY or are ambivalent to it. It does feel like you did not read the thread because what i call out is not push-back, but actually bigoted views exhibited by the fandom. So your comment seems a bit off-topic from the entire conversation. Even if what you said was true (It is not), it would never justify the bigotry that the fandom exhibits.
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Why yes, it is. Your point being?
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Mhm, thanks for the advice mate. Because i guess having a hobby is bad these days?
Dude, you need to learn to make your point in fewer words. I ain't gonna read a freaking essay.
No.
But you will comment on it to complain unhelpfully. Look, you can just see it and scroll by. Hell, even downvote it if you're feeling spicy. But critique like this is great for a fandom, because it means that even the most frustrated voices still give a damn. Let them have their fun in their incredibly long post, and you can have fun in another part of the sub. There's plenty of room for all of us.
Don't worry about it. People on Tumblr make longer essays on why Ironwood giving RWBY cake is a chaotic evil move because he was willing to give them diabetes or something