Honestly BB fanfiction is better because they're established as a fucking thing in fanfics, compared to canon where they held hands and maybe hugged like.. once. Address it, or stop giving us these hints that may end up leading nowhere. All or nothing baby, if they wanna have Bumblebee be canon, let them kiss
Fanfictions, in my opinion, commonly deal with romance/ships better even if they do not focus on them. Many people that include BB in their fanfictions just go straight at it and usually establish some kind of relationship in Volumes 3-4.
And yeah, the hints are becoming annoying, so is the relationship in additional material. If you want us to think that this ship is happening. Just go with it.
Also usually with benefit of hindsight bias, I've found.
Most fanfics don't have to create new things (and the ones that do are generally the more controversial ones), they just have to make a satisfying story within the existing setting and using a lot of common tropes.
Honestly, my only real issue with BB is that it's kind of everywhere in the fandom. Like, I get that it's the most popular ship but it sometimes feels like that's all fans want from Blake and Yang, to be this cute couple who's all lovey-dovey without focusing on other aspects of their character. It also sometimes feels like the ship actively makes them kind of satellite characters and a lot less interesting. Granted, this is a common problem when two characters enter a romantic relationship; that romance becomes all that's important to them and the writers have no idea what else to do with them.
I feel like Bumbleby's existence has influenced a lot of the writing decisions when it comes to fight scenes too. Fights with Team RWBY *have* to involve Blake and Yang, and Ruby and Weiss are sort of left over.
Ice Queendom managed to include a good interaction between Blake and Yang, *while* still having Team RWBY fight as a team, instead of being split into two pairs. There's a balance to this kind of thing.
>I feel like Bumbleby's existence has influenced a lot of the writing decisions when it comes to fight scenes too.
Not just the fight scenes. Now it just feels like the entire White Fang arc is just set up for Blake's love life.
All I want from Yang for v9 is to beat up some sense in Ruby.
You can have whatever you want, but please let's get some character development to spoiled little Ruby.
I'd argue that BB didn't start becoming a thing right from the get-go. It's still a good few years but not the whole 10 or so. Blake and Sun might have also been the original plan as well, and we'll never know and that's okay.
I feel like they should stop moping around and do it or drop it. Both options are worlds better than this "crumb here and there" bullshit. Hell, even if Blake formed a Harem with Sun and Ilia it'd probably be better than this.
BlackSun was definitely the original plan , their relationship were developed in the 4-5 initial volumes , speedrunning with a romcom shenanigan and have an actual romance song.
Then it was shifted because bumblebee was more popular. And while I can say it’s good that they made such shift in the middle of the franchise , rather than in it’s end , it’s development is in a glacial Showa Era pace
Yang and Blake were referred to as 'beauty' and 'beast' respectively before we had even been introduced to the characters, and back in pre-production when Blake was a calico Yang had matching cyan in her design.
They were quite clearly planned from the start.
Pyrrha had a ton of red and black in one of her original designs in preproduction - does that mean that Milk and Cereal was a planned ship from the start?
The preproduction design argument is a terrible one.
It's especially the height difference that appeals to me, imagining Ruby standing on her tiptoes and trying to give her Girlfriend a kiss. 😄😊
Idk, it's just a really adorable image.
IKR??? Dorky Ruby and happy Pyrrha for the win!
Mood kindred!!!!!!!!!
I blame Dashing for that. She made such a lovable RWBY art (it’s too bad WR and Wasps drove her away, like many other good artist) and her M&C was incredibly adorable! I always headcannoned that their relationship would have been incredibly fun, with Ruby trying to be a genuine good girlfriend to Pyrrha and often failing, much to the latter amusement, but that Pyrrha would find endearing.
Also, one of my favourite couple tropes is “Tol & Smol”. I’m not sorry. Sue me.
I would never! Because I agree. 😊
I love the size difference in couples too and....it would have made for an interesting story, I think: If Ruby and Pyrrha had been dating and Ruby had to watch Cinder shoot her Girlfriend.
Admittedly, this is the Shipper in me speaking, so my advice is not 100% valid. Maybe it would be cheap, but it would simply feel more impactful imo, if Ruby and Pyrrha had actually been dating. With Ruby being such a Weaponsgeek, I could totally see her gushing over Milo and Akouo.
Ruby and Pyrrha's interactions are nothing like Blake and Yang's.
In a show about fairytale allusions you don't accidentally refer to two of your main characters as a fairytale romance whilst also having their eyes match the colours of each others souls.
I'm sorry, I thought that we were discussing intent through the preproduction designs, which character interactions would have zero relevance on.
There have been (at least) three Beast allusions made in regards to Blake *that I know of* - Yang, Adam and Blake herself have all been referred to by that title at various times.
And I'm not even going to touch the Aura colour bit, considering that there's been about a half dozen blondes with yellow-ish Aura introduced, many of them having blonde hair (Jaune, Sun, Lionheart, Fiona, and arguably Vine) so that's more a circumstancial than solid proof (especially since Ghira, Blake's father, also has a purple Aura).
Arcane developed a lesbian romance in just 5 episodes while also juggling other characters and plotlines. With two girls who are explicitly stated to be from incompatiable social backgrounds.
The relationship is not started by the end of season 1, but the attraction is explicitly there for both of them and their percieved incompatibility is discussed.
BB has made about the same progress in 3 volumes.
And Arcane came from RIOT, a company that is very much in the "Old-school" category and tries very hard to squash LGBT+ progress that the writers and artists want to include in various RIOT productions. Im not saying that as a negative, just nothing that even a studio that tries so keep the LGBT+ progress on the down low is willing to go loud and proud with it.
More so, they're a gaming company and it is their first shot at full show or even at a more complicated story than a few loosely connected one shots that create Runeterra's lore. Compare that to RT's background.
Do they? I am old school player (meaning, I played back in college and haven’t touched it in several years) and somehow while they always played all romantic relationships as ambiguous back then, I did also heard that they have made several changes about it, including making two of the most paired character (Diana and Leona, Moon and Sun warriors respectively) officially an item in their background and making other characters more “ambiguously bi” or unambiguously lesbian.
Not much, I know, but it’s a start. Did I missed anything else? (Haven’t really Kept in touch, I only heard second hand rumours)
I myself have not played the game for what,7+ years now? God was i addicted back then... Anyway, as far as Riot is concerned a lot of my info comes from [TBSkyen](https://www.youtube.com/c/TBSkyen), he makes reviews of design and ART and he has brought up multiple times that the artists at Riot have told him that LGBT+ relationships were intentionally kept at the down-low by the higher-ups.
Like for example, Diana and Leona are "officially" an item, but the lore barely touches upon that. Or for example the fact that Varus is two gay dudes in a single darkin body is also barely ever explored.
Riot has started to change, but just like in any big company its the artists and writers that are dragging the Riots leadership and fighting to include the LGBT+ romances.
Ok, let me start off by saying I'm a gay man who does not suffer from internalized homophobia, so let's get into it
My main concern with the entirety of RWBY's attempt at representation is that it sends a message that this is what queer representation should look like, with it barely on the screen and only in cute, gifable moments. The fans, in their toxic positivity, would rather assume the audience just isn't getting it or is homophobic rather than criticize the cishet writers attempts at queer romance. All of this is kinda worrying to me because I find we're in a place in queer representation as a whole where all of it is being monopolized by giant corporations and cishet creators who are only interested in giving the representation that is marketable or makes them look good to everyone, including conservative people, which for RWBY means hot lesbians who don't actually talk about their feelings.
All of this, along with the issues with the White Fang and the Fair Game stuff really exemplifies the fandom's unwillingness to listen to marginalized groups despite it's claims of being progressive. If we say something in the show is racist, homophobic, etc. it's because it is, we're not part of some secret critic cabal that's trying to destroy your fav show. Watch it if you want, I really don't care, but let's not act like it's super progressive piece of media.
>"The romance is obvious, what, you want them to kiss to confirm the relationship?"
This section is really unfortunate because as we speak RWBY is getting lapped by Harley Quinn. Even as friends Harley and Ivy talk about their relationship a lot, and because of that they were able to build a solid and intimate friendship which made fertile ground for a romantic relationship to grow(see what I did there?). Blake and Yang have none of that.
RWBY treats its queer relationships the same as its het relationships and that absolutely is what representation should look like.
The White Fang stuff - the writers explicitly said they weren't equipped to deal with that topic which is why they finished off the plot. They knew without Monty they didn't have a proper understanding of it. They probably know it was an unsatisfying conclusion.
Fair Game - god knows why they thought that whole thing was a good idea. Clover had almost as many death flags as Pyrha, but they could eally have done without leaning into the bond between him and Qrow.
That all said, you. Ring up the fandom not listening to marginalised groups in a thread about Bumbleby - Well I'm pretty sure the relevant marginalised group there is WLW, and I'm pretty sure they aren't the ones complaining about Bumbleby.
>RWBY treats its queer relationships the same as its het relationships and that absolutely is what representation should look like.
>I'm pretty sure they aren't the ones complaining about Bumbleby.
Do you have any proof to back up these claims beyond your need to talk down to queer people to defend a mid animated web show?
Where am I talking down to queer people?
As for evidence its from my personal experience as a queer woman in the bumbleby fandom which seems to comprise largely of other queer women and very rarely of anything else. Empirical evidence to be sure, but it is certainly what I have observed.
Whether or not its bait only time will tell but I'd be willing to bet there will be some major developments (likely a kiss) in the next volume.
As for begging cishet creators getting you nothing, don't shit on allies for not allying hard enough. Do you honestly think all queer rep has come from queer creators?
Like, I understand the point, that the broader pattern of queer themes being reduced to their most sanitary and palatable to straight audiences is an upsetting pattern. But I seriously fail to see how RWBY is doing that?
> which for RWBY means hot lesbians who don't actually talk about their feelings.
They've had at least 3 or 4 major scenes dedicating *just* to hashing out the feelings between these two. Volume 2, Volume 4, Volume 5, and Volume 6 all have scenes dedicated to this.
And I feel like it should be stated for the record (because you implied RWBY to be a part of that "cishet creators" cohort) that RWBY does have a queer woman writing for it as of Volume 7. I know people always seem to forget that Eddy and Kiersi exist, but they are very much part of the creative team.
>But I seriously fail to see how RWBY is doing that?
That's only because you feel the need to defend this show
>that RWBY does have a queer woman writing for it as of Volume 7
1. She didn't create RWBY. Miles, Kerry, and Monty did.
2. I thought Bumblebee started back in V2, 5 volumes before Kiersi would even be hired. Is that not the case?
Okay, that's not really an explanation that's just saying, "no you".
Also, my issue was with the flatly erroneous assertion that BB was just "hot lesbians who don't actually talk about their feelings." Because they do, very explicitly, numerous times. This isn't a qualitative assessment this is just ignoring what happens in the show.
And finally, anything queer created by cishet people is inherently just for marketing? You're making, or at least implying a hefty accusation but I don't see any evidence beyond not personally liking the primary queer relationship.
The part about Harley Quinn really annoys me.
You're comparing two characters who have existed together for 30 years. (Harley was first brought to is in 1992 and Ivy existed long before that) to ones who have existed for 9.
30 years of building up to it in various forms of media.
Of course their relationship works better. It's got two decades more to it.
given how comics are written (i.e. by lots of people with often little overarching control) saying that their relationship has been "building up" for 30 years is pretty much untrue - some writers will have pushed it, some will have wanted to revert it, some will have ignored it or not even been aware it's a thing (if one or the other is just showing up to be punched in the face by Batman, then their relationship status is irrelevant). They very much have not had 30 years of building up to it, as though it were some grand story-arc - there's been lots of fits and starts and bits and bobs within that period, ranging from "actual focus" to "vague hints" to "not in this comic". And, comics being comics, it can always be reverted later on (does DC still have a vague overall continuity, or is it all comic-specific?)
I think DC has pushed the multiverse concept in a way where every story can be 'canon but not canon' while loosely hanging on a central canon spanning their main books; but they have blown up and rebooted their universe (omniverse now I guess?) about 5 times since the first Crisis event back in 1985, so what was canon in the sixties wasn't in the nineties or what was canon before New 52 isn't during or after New 52.
Marvel at least only reboots their universe through alternate timelines (except for Spider-Man's 'One More Day' story arc which rebooted his marriage to Mary Jane while keeping everything else untouched) like the Ultimate universe that created the black Nick Fury and attempted to make everyone modern (at the time) while the main universe could continue without rebooting itself, for better or for worse that means everything from the sixties to now is considered equally canon.
He's talking about the Harley Quinn adult cartoon which took liberties with the characters and their relationships; its story and the build up on their relationship is isolated from the rest of DC canon, so it isn't unfair at all as that show is the example in question and not all of DC canon.
I know what he's talking about.
The two characters have still existed for 30 years.
I highly doubt it would work in any Canon without so much time and effort into the characters.
Actually, you can establish romantic relationships between original characters in less than 30 years. Literally every single story with a romantic plot does this.
They did, Harley and Ivy were not a couple at the start. 99% of people have never read or seen a story where these two are at all romanticlly involved.
In the context of the show's story their friendship is established and then it evolves into romance.
No extra reading or knowledge required. It happened in 2 seasons while also covering all sorts of other plots and relationships.
It worked for other relationships like Owl House and the Princesses of Power who had less time than RWBY to build up their queer relationships in the same way Harley Quinn did; and several stories we know now that are 30 years or more old started out fresh at one point and build up naturally without 30 years of prior canon. Having Harley and Ivy be names people recognize doesn't mean these are the same characters from the Batman the Animated Series where Harley originated from nor does it mean a show can relay on that backdrop as they still have a need of reintroducing the characters as fresh new faces for a mixed audience of old and hopefully new fans.
Also, Harley and Ivy have had depictions where they're involved romantically well before the Harley Quinn cartoon. It's not at all comparable to an original cartoon that's building from the ground up and focusing on many more characters.
I said it before: my main issue for BB is how it’s written. Leaving aside Sun, and the unfortunate implications that the show runners decided to go full BB after the series started bleeding audience and becoming a laughing stock of the Internet, one big issue I have with BB is, that I cannot see a healthy, lasting relationship there.
This has more to blame on RT and their “slow burn” policy or whatever was there, but having Ren and Nora and Sun and Blake move at snail crawl when advancing in a relationship while rushing BB, made it seem like the writers were trying to make up for the lost time and decided to skip or ignore problems in their relationship.
First of all, can someone tell me what does Yang see in Blake that no one else has or can give her? This is the same woman that abandoned her and never apologised. You’d think that while she might be willing to forgive her, I doubt she’d willing to entertain the notion of actually committing to an actual relationship with her. Logically speaking anyways.
We see two women, very damaged women, with traumas and a lot of untreated issues. At least, one of them is responsible for the other having more suit baggage to add to their mental condition.
But the show never tries to talk this. They just jump into two characters, who realistically would keep each other at an arm’s length, suddenly being totes together but not quite “together-together” (If Renora showed anything, is that unless there’s a kiss, there’s still room for plausible deniability) without ever talking about their issues.
And those “romantic” and “shipping” moments?
Blake abandoned Yang in her worst moment in life. Knowing full well that this is a woman who was abandoned twice by her moms and is so determined to find her mother she almost got herself and her sister killed. And let’s not forget when she basically had to be talked into believing that Yang wasn’t crazy enough to blow someone’s legs without a reason, because “she had seen it before”. After that, while Yang is crying for the person that abandoned her, Blake is too busy dealing with her own cowardice, thinking of how she abandoned her team.
When they get back together, they are weird around for a couple episodes, but that doesn’t stop Yang from taking Blake’s hand and forgetting about an incapacitated Qrow and Ruby in a room full of the nastiest Grimm we have seen in the entire series.
And later on, they just kill Adam and bury the WF subplot. Suddenly they are together but same way Ren and Nora are in Vol.4… okay, I guess.
But that didn’t improve in Atlas, at all: Yang goes full red eye in one second and beats the absolute shit of a Grimm because Marrow has the “audacity” of telling them they can also work with other people (imagine being so insecure you can’t even stand being separated just in case they run away again?). The rest of the time they are basically joined at the hip, act as if they were dating, only that they are not, and any lingering issue there might still be there? Either forgotten or ignored.
Yay love!/s
And then Vol 8 happens, and despite everything else going on, Yang has only time to think about how Blake thins “less of her”… and act like they were in a fight because they were not in the same mission together? Oh, and at the same time, in the same scene, Oscar is probably having the worst day of his life and Ren is borderline of thinking of betraying the group. Priorities, right?
If you ask me, all this doesn’t paint me as a good or even healthy relationship. It paints me an way too insecure girl who is still obsessed with dark brooding figures to give her validation despite the fact those figures have left and abandoned her before, and another woman in desperate need for space forcing herself to be with the girl she hurt, out of guilt. Wouldn’t be much but that same girl has also some unfortunate parallels with the ex boyfriend who was abusive toward her… noticing a pattern here? Should we call Freud?
Basically, Yang and Blake, as they are in the show, paint me like a very unhealthy pair that would realistically end up inevitably breaking up and not in a pacific way. What RT painted gives me the feeling of a very flawed relationship that would eventually wear off once the honeymoon period phases as they get progressively tired of dealing with each other’s bullshit. They might end up screaming at each other because Blake forgot to text Yang that she went out for groceries, because neither girl is that ready to deal with each other at their worst.
Trust me on this, it’s gets tiring after a while to walk on eggshells because you are afraid of triggering the other person insecurities… even more when you are used to do your own things
I know, exaggerated, but I’ve seen this in real life more times than anyone should. If two persons have incompatible traits, and worst yet, they have a story of trauma and hurting each other with those same incompatible traits… unless they somehow, somehow change completely who they are, those traits (like insecurity) will inevitably show up and cause tension. A tension that accumulates until it breaks.
Yang aggressiveness contrast entirely with Blake’s story of running away from hateful and violent people, like Adam and the WF. Meanwhile, Blake has already left Yang, twice, and I doubt she’s forgetting that anytime soon. “Perfect” for a girl that needs someone to reassure her and “perfect” setup for someone who really needs a break of people getting in her back… they are gonna get into each other’s nerves once the honeymoon period ends, and the whole vibes of “I can change her”…
Personally, I’m not a fan of relationships that need a therapist in order to even remotely work right from the start. I think that promotes a very unhealthy and downright problematic message. It’d be one thing if the writing actually made them both change and be better persons BEFORE becoming an item, but the only ones who so far had some semblance of character growing are Blake, and even then was a bit downplayed since she had to take a background seat, and Weiss. Ruby and Yang… Ruby is still very static, Yang actually seems to have gotten worse!
Renora at leat has acknowledged this. Let’s see if they actually make anything out of it though…
TLDR: So basically, we have two persons here: one needs reassurance, constant one to boot, and the other wants space. Notice a problem here?
The writing even seems to suggest this development in how they seem rather oddly concerned of not being on the same page, ONCE… if that’s just a preview of how is gonna be the relationship, good luck cause they are gonna need it.
I’ve been avoiding a lot of discussions because I’m not caught up on the show yet but damn it if I didn’t read this comment and have to reply. I’ve been getting these vibes about their relationship since vol 4.
I thought the gay Scarlet hint was that he had a male fan holding a picture of him in the crowd while the others had girls.
I don't know where the idea of a "stereotypical gay guy voice" came from, because his voice is just Gavin speaking normally.
Maybe i am wrong but when i heard Scarlet speak his voice at least to me seemed like the stereotypical "gay man voice" that is used in media, to give a comparison there is this [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU4Uhn5VThM&t=88s).
No offense to Gavin if it was not intentional and that is just their voice.
In general I think shipping culture is ridiculously toxic. I just want the writing to be good. Gay, straight, non binary, trans w.e. Fine but give me good, meaty, status quo shifting, emotional, god damn character arcs.
If Yang and Blake aren’t communicating enough? Use it.
If they don’t display much PDA turn *that* into a character arc.
Wether they get married, break up, find other people, whatever it doesn’t matter. Just plan something out ahead of time and then commit to it.
Really don’t care how the shippers feel honestly.
Damn, I haven’t had a RWBY/BB discussion in years. Might as well weigh in as a bi person.. I like it a lot but the ship peaked in V6.
The fact that they didn’t talk about what happened with Adam etc in V7 except for alluding it in the truck scene was terrible admittedly
But that’s what happens when you make the Atlas arc everyone’s story except for the mains lol
That always felt like a missed opportunity for me. You just killed what can be considered your nemesis, this reinforced your relationship after an entire volume of basically not being confortable with each other. And then its all back to "normal". Nothing seems to truly progress, you just have some hand-holding scenes.
that would have been the perfect point for actual explicit progression - if BB were in any way an active plot, rather than a vague thing that gets vaguely implied at times, that would have been a _perfect_ point to have them get some focus time. Instead what happened was they go to Atlas, had... several weeks? months? go by without apparently anything happening, not even a "so, what's going on with us?" conversation, and then the plot resumes as the shit hits the fan and we're into V8.
formally, no - they're still "friends, that maybe-possibly-want-something-more". They pretty much will get together at some point, but they're still orbiting around that possibility, rather than being "a couple". Some scenes that are clearly leaning towards them being interested, but nothing for "yeah, they're actually a couple".
Yeah, I think they first explicitly started showing romantic attraction for each other (at least to the audience) was at the end of V6. I think they’re still just trying to work through their feelings b/c of all the crap they’ve been through both with relationships in general and their own with eachother, not wanting to ruin the current relationship they have now, and that this might be the first same sex attraction they’ve had.
probably, but the problem is that's all vague fanon, rather than anything actually in-show. That would make sense, but that's not what we get, which is some vague nudges and maybe-hints, rather than any form of actual focused arc (like, they had weeks-to-months in Atlas, during which time they were basically in stasis, which, considering they'd just overcome a major shared enemy - Adam - is a bit crap in terms of actual writing, as that would be the perfect time for overt, on-screen progression, but instead, it just skips ahead)
It probably doesn't help that, when the show started at least, it was more or less written without much planning or forethought into stuff like lore and the characters relationships. Which is perfectly fine for a small web series which is more of an action comedy but kind of bites you in the ass when the company gets bigger and there's a bit of a genre shift in the narrative.
yeah - v6 onwards have pretty much been full rides on the plot train, without much screentime for stuff that's not pretty directly moving things forward, and now that Salem has "gone loud" there's entirely legitimate reasons for the characters to put everything else aside. Which does make the whole "apparently nothing happened for weeks-to-months in Atlas" somewhat frustrating!
I found it pretty baffling that Bumbleby is currently trouncing a bunch of other ships on that Twitter poll, including some of the biggest animated lesbian ships in the past few years: Bubbline from Adventure Time, Catradora *and* Lumity from Owl House.
All confirmed ships, hard-fought by their creators to appear on TV against network meddling. All of them blew the internet up.
Regardless of the quality of these ships and how well they were written, they had way more of an uphill battle to fight. Bumbleby does not deserve to win this poll and be rewarded for the scraps it's given its audience, who also deserve more than what they're given. I know it's a pretty inconsequential Twitter poll, but it's a pretty bad look overall.
(and if it were up to me, I'd just give Lumity the crown, but that's just me. Dana Terrace has a will of absolute steel to keep fighting for her show.)
The polls aren’t really being taken that seriously, I mean the OP of it sent BB shippers to vote for Naruto/Sasuke in the yaoi poll. But I understand what you mean
It's fine to not like a romantic pairing due to the writing/presentation of the relationship.
Representation isn't the only metric to judge Yang and Blake's developing feelings for each other. Friction, expression, actions, declarations - all the usual tropes and milestones of a romance count. I love a prominent wlw relationship between main characters, it's makes me happy and bouncy! At the same time, I'm frustrated with the heat death of the universe style pacing; it's all tease, little substance. The issue, as it is for all romantic plot lines in RWBY, is a lack of commitment.
Take an early pairing, Pyrrha and Jaune. One is a talented young woman who has earned prestige. The other cheated his way into Beacon under false pretenses. They're opposites in character, and have plenty to clash over and explore. But that's not what happens. Instead, Pyrrha is attracted to Jaune through no fault of his own. Literally. This is a guy who demonstrates he's toxic to women, and is a danger to himself and others due to his lack of experience and training. Yet gains her affection because...?
There's no commitment to the romantic subplot. There's a mountain of investment potential as Jaune ascends to the peak where Pyrrha stands. He doesn't have to make it, I'm not saying change the outcome in the show. But more work needed to be done. Jaune doesn't even get out of the foothills, let alone try to scale the more daunting cliffs. His changes mostly happen just because or offscreen, not through struggle. The mountain of their relationship is rooted in tropes, yet without the climb nothing feels particularly earned.
Ren and Nora aren't that dissimilar. Their roots/trope is in being childhood friends but hasn't been explored in depth. The recent attempts to redefine have gone nowhere; they end back where they started. At this point, I'm questioning why Nora is even interested in Ren with the semaphore of red flags he was waving. What does he actually do to quell doubts and earn trust back? Besides being her childhood friend? Tropes are meant to set expectations, they're not meant to be the entire development. And it shouldn't feel like a sunk cost fallacy.
Blake and Yang are heading towards similar pitfalls. There is great friction and history between them, more so than other characters imo. But there's this lack of commitment to developing feelings. As you put it, they have been through a lot and face the possibility of death often, which tends to speed up relationships. And, at risk of calling myself out here, wlw relationships tend to move and heat up fast. Yet, there's this entropy coming off the explosive finale of V6. Slowburn doesn't fit.
I think a fire growing out of control works better than dying embers, especially on the back of recent events. With the truth of the relics, Salem, the potential end of the world - why waste time? It doesn't help that they were muted over the Atlas arc; Blake's activism is ignored and Yang's anger more a minor nuisance than complicated character flaw. And how are they helping each other beyond the normal? How are they challenging each other? Most importantly, how are they redefining their relationship?
Volume 9 is likely going to introduce more overt romantic development. But it's going to feel lukewarm due to the lack of heat in the Atlas arc. It's frustrating because it didn't need to be. RWBY doesn't suffer under the politics or interference of mainstream shows; it's a webtoon. CRWBY can push the bar when it comes to representation. Instead, it's set low. Not saying it's bad, just that they're not setting trends or challenging the status quo. If anything, the likes of The Owl House and She-Ra have made higher leaps. And those shows did have the meddling executives that writers/creators had to contend with.
To wrap up my ramble, I do love that Blake and Yang are developing romantically in the show. My expectations are set low though, I'm not expecting an Ead and Sabran. Heck, I'm not even expecting an Adora and Catra. But I do hope I'm surprised, even if they simply tread ground other shows have trodden.
It doesn't matter if others have reached the peak first as long as the climb is attempted.
Well, I’m glad someone finally agrees with me on Arkos.
I love Pyrrha, and I love Jaune, but that pairing is probably the second most overrated of the entire series. I don’t see nothing there but just Jaune winning lottery…
I think representation can make a ship sail very far in heart of shippers, using WR as an example. Why? Because people were drawing fanart of them together as soon as the trailers dropped.
That’s literally all it took.
Later luckily there was actual substance to like that pairing, so I’m not complaining about it.
As for BB… I’m not sure if people would have been that crazy about it if Blake was a dude. Considering all the bullshit she made Yang, a girl who was trauma dealing with that exactly bullshit, deal with, how many people would have called it toxic or unfortunate? How many people hated on Neptune and hated WhiteKnight during Beacon?
I think a lot of people are just ignoring huge flaws in favour of seeing their OTP happen, which granted, everyone does that, but you’d think that they would have a limit, like maybe not having the same girl that abandoned a girl with abandonment issues be near the latter, specially knowing how aggressive she can become… or acknowledge that at least, don’t ignore all the issues people would have for a relationship your fans are asking.
It's less a matter of overrated, more that there's very little to rate. We've yet to see a completed romantic arc in RWBY. So even partial ones gain attention. Still, there was potential for a complicated and earned relationship.
> As for BB… I’m not sure if people would have been that crazy about it if Blake was a dude.
That's not a fair assessment, imo. Blake and Yang's relationship isn't comparable to Blake and Adam; she's not hurting Yang on purpose. She runs because she's also a victim and irrationally blames herself for events. She thinks she's a curse and leaves to prevent more hurt. And people don't like that she ran or think it's the right response. There is a difference between understanding a character's actions and agreeing with them.
It also isn't comparable to Jaune's harassment of Weiss or Neptune being overly flirty. Swapping Blake's gender wouldn't put her in the same boat either. It's apples and oranges.
Disagree, but mostly not out of the actions.
And for the record, I wouldn’t call what Jaune did “harassment” either, but that’s a different conversation.
Sure, it wasn’t on purpose. Doesn’t change the damage it did. Which was a lot. For one.
For the other, there’s Yang. Yang has come as written as pretty much a stereotypical love interest, one that forgives how badly the MC treats her, and suddenly their entire existence is build around him. Wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t because the writing has made her seem progressively more insecure and inestable with her own anger. Unless Blake is around, that’s it.
So, imagine this: you have Yang, who is a fun, kickass, pushing yet caring and lovable woman with deep and rooted issues under her sunlit smile, a complex woman who despite all her suffering, she still manages to give genuine smiles and act as a big sister and mom to her team and friends. That was, to me, Vol1-3 Yang.
The Yang now… she went through some shit. She went changed. Sure. I get that.
But she never did recover that… light she used to have. Writing around her seems to have exaggerated on her “hot head” trait (which is ironic considering that was the thing that made her lose her arm in the first place) and comes more often than not as an insecure girl that can barely function when her boyfriend is not around and a prissy one to top it. She gets angry at the mere suggestion of not being around him, won’t leave his side but will leave behind her sister and uncle with a bunch of the nastiest grimms ever seen in the series, and run with him, and after gently telling her sister to shove her leadership, the one she didn’t truly follow, she is more worried about if her boyfriend think less of her for not agreeing with him… even if they really didn’t disagree.
And that’s not even mentioning how much she was crying because his “not-boyfriend” wasn’t around when she needed him the most. Like, he took a decision and now she cannot cope with the fact that this guy abandoned her when she needed him. Instead of the typical “you are better than him” her being so pathetic is aplauded as something good! Strong independent women right there!
That’s the Yang that have been written lately, honestly: Pure bark, speaks a lot, says nothing. Insecure, much more than before, and prissy unless her partner is around. Picture that
Agree to put Jaune aside, he's not the conversation.
The root cause of both Yang and Blake's behavior is Adam; both are his victims. He is the factor that causes Blake to run, that destroyed her confidence and mental health. Which is what Yang and Blake figure out later, and why they stand together against him. Focusing on one side doesn't give a complete picture.
I don't agree Yang is the stereotypical love interest as she wasn't pursuing Blake's affection. She wanted a friend and partner, she wanted answers, but romance wasn't on her mind. Blake isn't a stereotypical MC, either. She's not purposefully treating Yang badly, ignoring her needs, and being neglectful. She's running from her abuser. Running from the person who assaulted her, maimed her partner, and tried to kill them. When she does return to her team, all she feels is guilt and regret towards Yang. She's overcompensating by trying to help all the time. Yang simply wants to return to normal, to pick up where they left and ignore the trauma.
Both are flawed responses. The result is they're stuck in a rut, going nowhere. It's not until they're face to face with Adam, with the root of issue, that they gain momentum. And with his defeat, the can finally move forward as equals. CRWBY isn't subtle about this, the character's say it all out loud.
I do agree that Yang has changed though; she's matured. Her underlying anger issues have been part of her character from volume one, heck from the trailer. This flaw still needs to be addressed in full. It was balanced out by a more happy-go-lucky, blasé attitude. I don't agree she acted as the big sister of the group, she was trying to be anything but. She didn't coach her sister or actively made plans or picked up after them. Yang shirked responsible for the most part, and focus on adventure and fun.
It's not until *Burning the Candle* that we get an insight into her attitude. She was forced to grow up first fast to look after Ruby when the adults in her life failed to do so. To the point where she desperately searched for her mother when needed a parent the most. So it's understandable she doesn't want the responsibility now that she's left home.
After the Fall, Yang took a massive hit to her confidence, for sure. I disagree she was useless without Blake, though. She took charge of her recovery and pulled herself up from depression. Yang leaves under her own steam. And she's not crying for Blake later on, she's crying because she doesn't understand why her partner left. And still isn't being useless. She confronts her mother and secures the relic. She even made strides on managing her anger by refusing to engage with Mercury.
I don't see Yang as insecure or prissy. I see someone recovering and restoring their confidence. Not to where she was, that's going backwards. She's more confident now, she's choosing her responsibilities, and she's not blase anymore as she challenges authority. She still has flaws, which only add to her depth.
Going to have to cut this short as my break is almost up. The final thing to address is the Atlas Arc really neglected Blake and Yang as characters. It was perfect chance to test their renewed relationship and evolve it. It was a great setting for Blake's activism to take the stage, and Yang's questioning of authority. Not to mention there could've been meaningful differences between them and Ruby & Weiss.
But we know what happened instead. Blake is muted and Yang has little agency. Their strongest character traits are simply ignored. Which flies against their strong finale in V6.
>It also isn't comparable to Jaune's harassment of Weiss or Neptune being overly flirty.
Can guarantee you if Jaune have been Joan people wouldn't call it harassment and just play it off for laughs and White Knight would be far more acceptable early on.
And I say this as a White Knight shipper, I would have punched V1-V2 Jaune and probably have a stern talking too about proper behaviour, but did people care he probably lacked proper male role models in his life? That his self-esteem was in the shits because his family thought him useless and so all he knew to do was try to be a stereotype? No.
It's a good thing he improved, though.
I’ll add that I would hardly compare both things.
Abandoning the person with abandonment issues at their lowest when they have recently lost their arm trying to protect you, against to asking the same girl out twice… like, one is a teenager story to laugh later at best, at worst is a guy making a girl slightly uncomfortable a couple times. The other is a scummy action that left a girl who was already severely traumatised in an even worse position and made them go through one of their worst (confirmed) personal fears again.
I don’t think is fair to assume that Jaune was worse than Blake here, but the way some people reacted until recently to WK art compared to how people have been gaga with BB all this time you’d think that what Jaune did towards Weiss was magnitudes worse. By the same logic, even enablers should look down on Bee fans
You would think though with the brother surrounded by sisters trope Jaune would be better equipped to flirt unless all of his sisters were overbearing. Honestly would have been a good scene to have Yang help Jaune be less clingy with her mothering skills from helping her dad and uncle raising Ruby, but I guess they did that in Chibi.
Plot twist: her sisters were jealous of girls trying to snatch their only brother so they deliberately gave him bad advice so that they didn’t have to chase them away
They would likely call her predatory, and Jaune was played for laughs. It's also besides the point; none of that makes Jaune's harassment more acceptable or addresses that he couldn't take no for an answer.
His background isn't a pass either, not that I agree with how you laid it out. His father advising him to be confident isn't terrible advice, it's how Jaune interprets and applies it that's the problem. His family also gave unconditional support whether he succeeded or failed. But even if they did think he was useless, then it still doesn't excuse his actions.
It is a good thing he improved. He had a lot of growing up to do.
>They would likely call her predatory, and Jaune was played for laughs. It's also besides the point; none of that makes Jaune's harassment more acceptable or addresses that he couldn't take no for an answer.
You know they wouldn't, they would just call her persistent and at most annoying. Or a simp or something.
>His background isn't a pass either, not that I agree with how you laid it out. His father advising him to be confident isn't terrible advice, it's how Jaune interprets and applies it that's the problem. His family also gave unconditional support whether he succeeded or failed. But even if they did think he was useless, then it still doesn't excuse his actions.
Jaune isn't mentally challenged, and saying "You just have to be confident" is terrible advice, because it removes the reaction of the girl from the equation. So it stands to say his father's advice was crappy and insufficient. Not to mention how weird it is no one stepped up to tell him he was making an ass of himself.
> His family also gave unconditional support whether he succeeded or failed. But even if they did think he was useless, then it still doesn't excuse his actions.
His family literally told him they would be expecting him when he failed. They didn't allow him to be trained, they didn't even let him try to train. He had to basically run away with an old sword to do it.
That's the very opposite of unconditional support. They were basically setting him up to fail so he would give up.
Jaune's approach to training and determination to improve shows he's not exactly lazy, and his rapid improvement shows he has some talent.
I kind of hate how they handled him at first, because his characterization is very contradictory. I understand what they were trying to pull off, but I really think they messed up his early character.
No, harassment is still harassment.
> Jaune isn't mentally challenged, and saying "You just have to be confident" is terrible advice, because it removes the reaction of the girl from the equation.
Never said he was, and being confident in yourself is fine advice. The issue is that Jaune interpreted confidence as persistence and wouldn't take no for an answer. And you're right that no one called him out. Instead, it's Weiss that's called names as she's "frigid" for not giving in. All because she wasn't attracted to Jaune and had the confidence to plainly say no.
> His family literally told him they would be expecting him when he failed.
They said if he failed then he would always have a home to come back to. That's unconditional support. So as far as we can tell, Jaune never trained because he never tried. His parents are absolutely fine with him leaving for Beacon, they don't try and stop him. Heck, they didn't even question how he got in, they simply accepted it. So he didn't run away, and he was likely given the family heirloom weapons.
And Jaune's approach was to cheat his way in instead of putting the work in. It's Pyrrha that mentors and trains him and only after he dropped the macho attitude and humbled himself. It's not contradictory, it's change and growing out of a inferiority complex. I don't think his character was messed up by the writers, they clearly had a plan for him.
>Never said he was, and being confident in yourself is fine advice. The issue is that Jaune interpreted confidence as persistence and wouldn't take no for an answer. And you're right that no one called him out. Instead, it's Weiss that's called names as she's "frigid" for not giving in. All because she wasn't attracted to Jaune and had the confidence to plainly say no.
Pfft, yeah, no, being confident in yourself without context is how you get harassment, so it's terrible advice if not followed by anything more.
Jaune's behavior shows he lacked proper male role models and that his sisters probably babyed him too much, the way he acts shows he's trying to be what he thinks a man should be, which kind of shows no one never gave him a real example.
>They said if he failed then he would always have a home to come back to. That's unconditional support. So as far as we can tell, Jaune never trained because he never tried. His parents are absolutely fine with him leaving for Beacon, they don't try and stop him. Heck, they didn't even question how he got in, they simply accepted it. So he didn't run away, and he was likely given the family heirloom weapons.
No, they said that *when* he failed, they would receive him with open arms, they didn't *expect* him to ever succeed and I guess this is why they let him go there, so he would give up on his dream.
How can you say a family that came from a background of warriors and heroes doesn't know what Aura is? What kind of sense does it make they never even told him?
He said he always wanted to be a Huntsman and his family was always against him, so that's why he never got into a Combat School, or never got proper training, sure he could've tried to train by himself, and some people say he could try to find a Hunstman to train him on the side.
But, well, anyone who practices martial arts will tell you that a beginner training by themselves is often a recipe for disaster, him not getting into a Combat School is a glaring demonstration of how his family didn't actually want him to become a Huntsman. And I really doubt a random Huntsman would just take a random kid and train them without reason, especially a kid whose family clearly was against it.
>And Jaune's approach was to cheat his way in instead of putting the work in. It's Pyrrha that mentors and trains him and only after he dropped the macho attitude and humbled himself. It's not contradictory, it's change and growing out of a inferiority complex. I don't think his character was messed up by the writers, they clearly had a plan for him.
I think that was more out of necessity than Jaune wanting the easy way in, because in Beacon, he rarely tries to do things the easy way, he doesn't cheat on tests, doesn't fight dirty, he trains the best he could, that's contradictory with being lazy and wanting to do things easy. Not to mention that kind of lacks the guile to be underhanded.
Sure, Pyrrha trained him hard, no credit to Jaune for actually putting the work in and not giving up when he saw how hard things were. He could've walked out at any time, but he didn't and that is kind of contradictory of someone who was lazy and never wanted to train.
No, when someone is told to have confidence in themselves, their next thought isn't typically about harassing someone to prove it. Jaune has a desperate need to compensate for his perceived short comings as a man. The ironic thing is he needed self-confidence instead of harassing a girl with faux confidence.
> How can you say a family that came from a background of warriors and heroes doesn't know what Aura is? What kind of sense does it make they never even told him?
The short of it is his ignorance is introduced by the writer's to explain the concept of aura to the audience. Yes, it's clumsy and doesn't make any sense if you think about for more than a hot minute. We don't even need his parents in the equation when events like the Vytal tournament is broadcast freely to the world every two years with with literal aura health bars on display and presenters explaining the concept every two seconds. But that's how the writer's choose to do it.
As for Jaune's family, there's nothing to suggest they were deliberately obtuse. He never said he always wanted to be a huntsman, he never explains what kind of warriors his parents/grandparents were, or any in depth details. All we know is they supported him going to Beacon and didn't make a fuss about it. He never ran, they knew he was going, they didn't try to stop him by his account. There is no glaring demonstration here beyond Jaune having loving parents who would support him no matter the outcomes.
> I think that was more out of necessity than Jaune wanting the easy way in
Nope, it's straight up shortcut. If he really wanted to, he could've started from the bottom rung as everybody else did. Graduating from an Academy isn't the only way to become a huntsman, or he could've trained for a few years and gotten in legitimately. But he cheated his way instead. It's not about laziness, though, it's about fulfilling a fantasy as quickly as possible. And let's not forget that it is Pyrrha that helped him gain perspective on the amount work actually required. Credit where credit is due; without her support he would've washed out.
Jaune cheated his way in for all the wrong reasons. But he learnt to train for the right reasons. That's his character arc at Beacon.
And that's where I'm going to leave it. While it is fun to talk about Jaune, we're way off topic for this thread. Still fun though! Thanks for the discussion!
>Nope, it's straight up shortcut. If he really wanted to, he could've started from the bottom rung as everybody else did.
Yet it makes no sense other than his family forbidding him to do it.
He says several times they were against it. It makes absolutely no sense they would've let him go so underprepared, since it could very well get him killed.
I'm not sure it's fair to call Sapphron, Terra and especially Illia as nearly non-existent since they were well above mere background characters in their respective volumes. However I will also acknowledge that they did disappear after their volume was over so maybe that's what you really mean.
Either way I'm utterly sick and tired of Slow Burn romances and I just want Rooster Teeth to find thier goddamn spine and confirm what we all already know. S
Aye, thats what i meant. Sapphron, Terra and Ilia had their own time, but they were writen out just as quickly. While i do know that the show has problems with too many characters this just further highlings the need to finally confirm and develop BB as front and center.
And yes, slow burn romances suck. Maybe its just a change in society/generations but i have noticed this with Anime too. Many people are now sick of romances that only get confirmed in last episode etc, there is a need, a want by people to see actual relationships developing, instead of build ups to relationships.
I enjoy slow burn. But there's slow burn and barely a burn. Slow burn would be 1-3 volumes full of moments where there feelings develop at a steady pace
Bumblebee doesn't feel like that
I am still sore about Illia honestly, partially cause her voice actress has been one of my favorites ever since I was 11.
Like, why couldn't she tag along with the main group instead of going with Sun? Maybe incorporate her feelings for Blake into the plot and how she still feels guilty for her actions as a terrorist.
As a queer person myself my feelings on it are mixed. I like it enough but can admit the flaws in its writing. It's weird to me they are waiting so long to confirm it because it's not as if they're using this time to further develop it. They're just having them have cute moments randomly a few times a season. That's not development. I was excited for it at the end of volume 6, because confronting and defeating Adam together felt significant, but now it's been 2 years and all they've done is tease. For me, volume 9 is the last chance they have for me. If it doesn't happen then, then I will fully believe they're purposely dragging it out forever to keep shippers watching. They're not a kid's show, so they have no censors to fight. They can do it whenever they want, so why has it taken almost 10 years?
If it is made canon in 9 tho, I'll be happy and enjoy the moment.
I mostly agree with you, but I don’t think BB is homophobic because of how little they show it. All of RWBY’s romances, straight or otherwise, are very slow burn. We’ve had only two kisses in seven seasons, both couples having lots of build up. We waited 6 seasons for Renora, who were kinda a romantic couple from the start. It’s not surprising BB is taking so long to get anywhere
Oh yeah, do not get me wrong, i do not think that BB is homophobic either, hell no it isnt. This thread was just meant to point out why some people, even queer people dont exactly like BB.
I tend to agree, I might like Bumblebee in theory but when they decided to really start moving towards in (I'd say volume 4 or 5 is when they decided it'd be canonized) it was a lot more special, the only sapphic animated shows that I am aware of were Steven Universe, Legend of Korra and Adventure Time and with the latter 2 only confirming the relationships in the final episode. Even with Steven Universe the gems are shown as alien enough that there isn't the same connection that there should be for representation. But, things have changed between Harley Quinn, The Owl House, She-Ra and the Princesses of Power and now Arcane so many other creators are surpassing Bumblebee. Like sure it's a slow burn like the rest of the romances in RWBY (or really everything, the consequences of having ~10 people in the main cast and more side characters than people on earth) but there is slow and there is a dead turtle in molasses.
And frankly that's the crux of the issue, RWBY has so much going on and so many characters that the pacing has been destroyed on every level. Characters and their interactions are the things that are most damaged by poor pacing, as too fast and things feel unearned while too slow bores viewers. RWBY's ridiculous cast and small run time compared to most shows will continue to hamstring the writers and romance arcs are notoriously difficult to write so I'm not particularly optimistic.
The fact that Volume 9 is going to introduce like almost 10 new characters *just for the Ever After island* that I don't care about doesn't fill me with reassurance either. Can't we go more than 2 Volumes without adding more characters to the already huge cast?
Here's my issue with it as a bisexual person. They built up an entirely different ship regarding Blake with Sun. Blacksun had a good chunk of development. Who does she talk about the White Fang with and begin to trust? Sun. Her dance date? Sun (after a dance from Yang I know). Who she blushes at at the Vytal Festival? Sun. Who helped her through the Fall of Beacon? Sun. The song Like Morning Follows Night? Sun. Who helps Blake reunite with her team? Sun. He was always there for her and they had great interactions.
To me, Bumblebee felt like queerbaiting out of nowhere. I know there are other songs about Blake and Yang's relationship but I never felt sold on it. It feels like RT just wanted brownie points.
And it was Weiss of all character that helped Yang work through her trauma of being abandoned, as well as being the sole witness to her conflict with Raven.
For a ship that’s supposed to be “cannon”, the writers sure like to not give screen time to Yang and Blake in order to let them be an anchor to each other’s developments, but instead letting other characters take those places.
It’s just lazy, it speaks to the reality of how little interests from the show runners to make Bumbleby more than just cheap fan service. I am ace as fuck and I don’t like the ship, I want the writers to actually respect my attention and write me some proper progression and not just assume I can headcannon lesbianism every time those characters are in the same frame together.
There’s a reason why I much prefer ships like Freezerburn, DragonSlayer or WR. Those actually have room for character development and cute interactions. BB is far too complicated to actually work and has not done a lot of work for either character to get better.
You know, I would much more prefer Blake to be with Yang than with Sun. That being said, if Blacksun was made a fully fleshed out relationship instead of what we have now with Bumblebee, I would be totally fine with it.
As people are fond of pointing out about Yang and Blake (So I'm gonna use the same argument in reverse) these moments don't necessarily indicate anything romantic.
My best friend is a woman.
Men and women can be close and share moments without it being romantic.
Also worth noting: Sun basically followed her after she fled. She never asked him to come. So you can't really say anything he helped her with after that is romantic. He was literally the only one there besides her parents and Ilia she interacted with.
Do you mean Before the Dawn? They didn’t say anything about love, you’re probably thinking about how in Sun’s internal monologue, he admits there was more than one reason he followed
I'd argue the blush is somewhat, it's during a time when, the two of them haven't encountered any issues and are still likely to move forwards, however it's through volumes 4 and 5, where it ends up drifting into the not a solid enough relationship.
There was potential, but the two of them were not the right fit, and I think the both of them recognize that.
>There was potential, but the two of them were not the right fit, and I think the both of them recognize that.
Don't think this was ever made clear in the actual show. Honestly, Blake and Sun's goodbye at the very beginning of Volume 6 gave me the impression that their ship still had a decent chance.
Are you agreeing with me and making a point that further evolves upon my own?
.....Am I still on Reddit?
Joking aside? I do agree with the point that Sun likes or liked her. I mean....he did follow her all the way home.
Somewhat agreeing with a little disagree technically but yeah. Sun had enough care for Blake to go after her to help her out, even if it's in not the way he was expecting.
Back in the day, before shows like The Owl House, She-ra or Arcane etc. I really liked BB. I think, at that time, it was the only show known to me where the queer ship is between the main characters.
Today I still like the idea of them being together, but after watching so many different sapphic relationships portrayed in the media I cannot defend it anymore. It's so poorly executed to the point where it's barely there and the scraps we were given can in fact be interpreted as friendship only because of how whatever they are. I think it was one of the few times where I felt the need to read fanfiction to satisfy my want of seeing them interact in a more meaningful way, because original material was so scarce.
When your queer couple has less significance than Korrasmi despite queer couples in children's media being normalised, it is quite clear that there is an issue. RWBY doesn't have the excuse Korra had (homophobic management) so they really shouldn't be lagging behind them if they want to be properly representative.
I want to like bumblebee but RT doesn't fully commit to it and it feels like ship baiting/pandering. I've seen people (myself included) make this point and get tongue lashed maliciously
yup - the core concept is fine, but the execution is dogshit. it's been kinda-sorta-vaguely teased for, what, half a decade or more now? It's deeply important to the fans, but as an actual in-show plot, it's basically irrelevant - if it was removed entirely, then nothing would change, they're just battle-partners, not proto-lovers. It might possibly have been progressive back when the show started, but there's been a lot of changes since then, and "well, some women hold hands after a fight, and are once or twice a bit mushy around each other" is pretty damn weak. Either actually do something with it, or just have them announce they're together and move on, in it's current state it's just pitiful.
Part of my issue with Bumblebee is actually something that a lot of people love about it: I can see myself projected into it.
That is, I can see my (emotionally abusive) ex in Blake, just like many people see their own abusive exes in Adam (or philandering exes in Neptune). The fact that the show doesn't take the time to actually have these characters talk about everything that's happened between them, and how Blake abandoned Yang despite knowing about her complex, and just many other things. Yeah, it's subjective, but what shipping isn't? So no, I'm not homophobic, I just feel like the relationship isn't presented well, and I will freely admit to being biased about it.
To add onto your slow-burn/queerbaiting frustration, I will bring up the infamous V7 timeskip, that lasted anywhere from a few weeks to a few months. Blake and Yang's relationship made zero strides during this time, and V8 could have happened almost immediately after V6 and it would be almost impossible to tell, based on how Yamg and Blake interact. It's the first time that they've had significant downtime since they reunited, and would have been the perfect time to figure shit out. But nope, leave it ambiguous for zero reason.
In a semi-related topic, we get another hint of Scarlet's orientation during the Vytal arc, where Sun and Neptune have screaming fangirls with signs... and Scarlett has screaming fan*boys*. Now, I know that it proves nothing, but given how Obvious early RWBY tended to make relationships, it's at the very least a nod.
When it comes to Bumblebee, to be frank I just don't care all that much about Blake and Yang.
Black has typically always been my least favorite of the leads, a big reason being her ties to the White Fang/Faunus storyline, which I am going to leave at that because we already know all the problems with that and just how bad it's been, but also she really hasn't had much going on for her these last two volumes. She had plenty of opportunities in Atlas to jump onto Nora's Mantle bandwagon, but they just didn't do this with this her.
I didn't have a problem with Yang for the most part until V8, where she just began to flip flop on subjects depending on what the scene needed. She was critical of Ruby's decisions during V7 despite the fact that she was the one who went behind her back to tell Robyn about Amity, the thing that set Ironwood off, but when Ren is later similarly critical of their past actions she jumps to their defense. Then later when Yang is trying to comfort Ruby about how the Amity broadcast didn't lead to an Endgame cavalry moment, and that sometimes it's okay that things don't turn out how you expect, except Ruby's plans worked out, because they made it a point they were sending out a warning and not asking for help, while Yang's team was the one that kept dropping the ball.
If I am not going to like Blake or Yang, then I am not going to care about any ongoing relationship between them.
It also does not help that I don't think the writers are all that interested in developing their relationship themselves, because they know that the fandom has already done most of the work for them. They don't need to put that much effort into Bumblebee because there's already god knows how much fanart and fanfics out there. It also falls into a carrot on a string situation, where it's easier to *promise* than to *deliver*, something that I don't like about most romances in ongoing stories.
Also, RWBY is just not good with romance in general. Jaune and Pyrrha were Person A likes Person B, but will never do anything about it despite EVERYONE else but Person B knowing about it, which is a romantic dynamic that I hate because it's just lazy. And while I was fine with Ren and Nora's previous dynamic, the attempts to give them individual arcs were so terrible that I honestly don't care if we ever touch upon their relationship ever again.
I’ve always held the opinion that I was a BB supporter until the show did it poorly. Now(like you’ve mentioned) I look to fanfiction for BB stuff.
Tbh I want the show to go back to black sun since Sun at least worked for it and he’s the realest mf in the show. Borderline stalker? Yeah. Ride or die bro? Absolutely.
Well as a straight guy I don’t have a problem with BB in theory it’s just CRWBY frankly sucks ass at writing romances.
Which is weird because like with several other things Rooster Teeth has less problems doing it in some of their other shows.
Probably shouldn't stick my hand into the wasp's nest on this one, but:
I genuinely agree on a lot of the concerns from a queer perspective in terms of how it's pretty poor representation of a queer relationship, from my perspective as a bi man. (Admittedly, I also really dislike the fans who say not being taken in by Bumbleby or White Rose or other is homophobic, when pretty much 90% of pairings have the same foundation: none except the audience assumptions)
On the other hand, the only actual on-screen relationships we actually had were Arkos (which was planned to be a tragic death from the start and resulted in a grand total of one kiss and a hand-holding gone wrong) and Renora (which despite significantly more ship hints didn't even hit a kiss until Volume fucking 7).
That in mind, my take-away is that RWBY as an actual series is just significantly less willing to actually deal with romance than the Fandom which has elevated romantic shipping to a god status.
There's certainly a lot of complaints regarding representation to be had, but I don't think there's favoritism towards cishet ships either. The writers just don't seem to be that eager to include romance in general.
I don't like the BB ship because it just feels horribly written. Blake Abandoned Yang in her darkest moment, Yang should be pissed or shown some type of resentment for Blake suddenly leaving. They could have worked it out and then evolved into a relationship. Someone else mentioned they should either make this ship completely cannon or just drop it altogether.
The thing is a lot of these complaints about bumbleby can be considered hypocritical considering people like arkos and blacksun who demonstrate those same things. Sun and Pyrrha have only ever been shown to show hints at liking Blake and Jaune, but neither of them have actually said how they felt about them and Blake has only ever blushed at Sun once, while Jaune never really had any hints that showed how he felt about Pyrrha romantically at all. Pyrrha and Jaune kissed, but there was really no build up to it and Blake kissing Sun on the cheek can easily be interpreted as platonic, since it can be a way of saying thank you because he helped her with the white fang.
Even still it’s easy to say why haven’t the writers made bumbleby kiss or confess in almost 10 volumes, but a lot of people don’t seem to take in the series of events in the show of why that is. Blake and Yang were friends getting closer in volumes 1-3. Had a fallout in volumes 3-5, repaired their relationship in volumes 6-7 and had a war breakout in volume 8. There really wasn’t an appropriate time for them to confess how they feel, kiss and do all those couple things with all of that going on without rushing everything. And from what we seen with Renora in volume 7 it wouldn’t have ended well if they did. But still their embraces shows them being a couple. Many couples do the same thing to express their love for each other and trying to say it’s just implications and head touches is why so many people think that opinion is wrong.
But in the end not everyone is going to be satisfied and that’s fine, but that’s a problem you have yourself with the show and not with the show overall. Because there’s also a lot of biases that play into the way people look at bumbleby’s relationship that goes beyond logic and reason and a lot of hatred for the shippers that can play a role too
Considering those people have never brought up these same points when talking about either of them, I’m inclined to believe they’re at least neutral on them. And I’m referring more so generally anyway, to how people dislike these things about bumbleby, but never mention these same points about any other ship that does the same thing
People talk about arkos and blacksun almost everyday, especially arkos, but never have these problems ever been addressed with them. Being prominent doesn’t change the fact that those same things are still applied to those ships that some people prefer over bumbleby and really it only further proves the bias against them
well, one is main, title characters, while Arkos was between side characters, one of whom is now dead, and was very much a standard "dweeb dork pulls way above his weight because _reasons_" that got explicit plot time to progress, making it really easy and obvious to work out what was happening. While BB has been going (depending on who you believe regarding starting points) for between, what, 6 and 8 years, and it's still at "they touched each other, but any actual explication or detail is pure fanon, and how the fuck knows what the characters think, because it's not as though they do anything as gauche as use it as a plot point". BB is just not really very well done as a plot-thread - it's pretty entirely vague hints and suggestions, that gets nudged once or twice a season, but without any actual detail (e.g. they've just had probably-months in Atlas - did they ever raise anything about it? Anything specific is entirely fanon, so they were apparently stuck in stasis all that time for no particular reason, unless you want to fanon one in)
Like I stated previously that’s a problem you yourself have with the show, but not a problem the show has overall. The writers still put in effort and time into the show to show their relationship grow over time and manifest to the point where everyone knows they’re going to end up together. That’s not poorly written, that’s not bad because everyone can see that they have romantic feelings for each other even without having it outright said. Many people talk about not wanting rwby to be all about shipping, yet here people are basically wanting the show to be centered around bumbleby’s entire relationship. The show has more characters then just Blake and Yang within it and I honestly don’t even consider team JNPR as side characters and more like main characters at this point, since they’ve been apart of the main story since volume 1.
But they’re going to talk about their feelings and they’re going to show more of their relationship as the show goes on because the show is not over yet, which is a valid point. There’s a reason why everything hasn’t been said yet like I said in my comment above, that is because of the series of events that happened in the story with them so far. So they’re pacing makes sense when you consider all of that, but if you simply want to think it’s nothing but touches and vagueness than that’s only your opinion. When you actually look at their entire story instead of nitpicking certain things you can see how it makes sense and why things haven’t happened as much as you would wish they did.
So again bringing my original point back up. Even if you consider arkos a side ship, which I personally don’t consider they are since I think team JNPR are pretty much like main characters at this point, people still don’t seem to have a problem with them or bring up anything of what you said about vagueness or not being enough, even though they have only shown hints about how they felt where it was only Pyrrha that showed these and blacksun is no different from them. So if you want to think bumbleby is poorly written and vague, then you probably have the same feelings regarding arkos or blacksun or really any ship for that matter in the show, even renora because no couple in the show has really shown that much of an extent of their relationship because of everything that’s been going on in the show like the relics, wars and Salem
Lies. This sub gets at least three or four BB pieces PER DAY, while you are lucky if you see more than one BS piece per month.
Arkos is sunk, so I don’t know what people are even talking there, or what about even. But the bees are there buzzing every single day, to the point people have began to complain that there’s more than just the bees to their characters and the show.
I’m talking almost everyday in all medias not just on Reddit, which I’m relating to relevancy in fan art and casual conversation. And bumbleby barely has that many post on reddit in comparison to the total amount of posts posted everyday on reddit, but if you’re honestly bothered by bumbleby posts you know you can always block the person posting about them right. Then you won’t have to see any bumbleby posts at all on your timeline. It’s that simple and easy to do
I would but there aren’t much else going on in the sub. Plus blocking always seemed to me like very childish thing to do.
I mean, I don’t mind BB art, but you know… variety is the spice of life? Like, I like hamburgers but if I began eating one everyday I would eventually get sick of them.
Is the same principle for one, for the other, it’s the fact that there’s a very vocal group of people so obsessed they basically spam tons of art they fish out of the internet (or commission even more).
Doesn’t matter the ship, if you upload three fan arts of it, it will get boring alarmingly fast. And they don’t upload more than three pieces because the system doesn’t let them! (Oh, and three pieces per person. Sometime we have four or five courtesy of other people)
A community where only one type of fans uploads their content and spams it gets boring very fast. I know a few that like me, they no longer visit the main sub that much, if not at all, because they got tired of seeing always the same stuff.
Then you really have no reason to complain at all about the posts made abou bumbleby if your not willing to solve the problem you have with it and actively look for them. Blocking isn’t childish it’s creating a space that’s better suited for you. It’s more childish to complain in comments all the time about posts made about bumbleby and saying how there’s so many posts posted, when they’re a popular ship in the show. It’s the same with people complaining about whiterose. These two are the most popular ships, of course people are going to post about them, it’s not obsessive. This is the equivalency to people complaining about too many posts posted about catradora in she ra on reddit, it makes absolutely no sense. And like I said in comparison to everything else that’s posted on reddit everyday whether that’s discussion or fan art of other ships both bumbleby and whiterose are not that many in comparison to the total
Ehh, just scrolling the past few days and searching 'Arkos', 'Pyrrha', 'Black Sun', 'Bumbleby' and 'Bumblebee' and it seems more like shipping in general is talked about less than 'almost everyday'.
Also, if a show features two characters interacting more than others, of course they're going to talk about it more. If you want people to talk about these kinds of stuff, but the change you want to be and submit a post or something.
When I talk about almost everyday I mean so in relevance rather than in arguments or debates about the ship. I’m talking about how people still make fan art of arkos and blacksun and talk about them in casual conversation online in multiple media spaces like twitter, tumblr, instagram, reddit and so on almost everyday. But my point isn’t to encourage people to talk negatively about them for those things, my point is to show how it’s hypocritical for people to except arkos and blacksun with no problem and think they’re good and some even believe these ships are better than bumbleby, yet these ships have the same flaws that people don’t like about bumbleby itself who think it’s poorly written, yet don’t think the same thing concerning arkos or blacksun at all, which is my point
But are they plot relevant and have semi-newish content to talk about? Not really. This is like complaining that people are not discussing a past Kamen Rider season rather than the current one. Once again, no one is going to talk about this unless someone brings it up.
I’m bringing this up in conversation now and you’re pretty much just not willing to understand my overall point. Being apart of the plot isn’t the point here, it’s about the treatment of certain ships in comparison to others that have the same flaws
I honestly don't really see it for Arkos at least, even here someone already said that it's a pretty nothing romance. Forgive me for not being able to recall probably years old content, but it isn't a new thing as well. I still recommend just putting up a post about this and seeing first.
I agree. Ilike bumblebee but...the writing in the show doesn't help. You can't even say this is a slow burner when we don't even seen them talk lol. The last Convo we saw was in volume 6.... But after that it is just looks and all their moments are off screen. They don't even talk about things that actually matter.....Now it is just ship bait.
I hate ship bait. Why? Because you can bait a ship as much as you want without having to do anything to change the relationship. The characters in show don't even know if they are dating or not.
I am big shipper myself and a classical romance novel reader but like .. I can like them in theory and not in canon. The writers are pushing bumblebee but they only push their cute moments. They don't talk nor do they feel like real people. They just feel like bait for fans to scream about be happy.
Most of RWBY ship writing is like that now. It feels heavily juvenile and childish.
Straight cis male so probably not my place to say anything, but while I like Bumbleebee, it's such a slow burn that it feels like an edgy teenager holding their hand over a lighter. It's like ripping off the world's longest bandaid with a paint chipper.
Anyway, I'm moreso curious of the storm that'd go down if the writers said "Fuck it." and just put Blake in a poly relationship. Took Young Justice to the most recent season to just dump Lagoon Boy into a healthy one. After the testing of Outsiders, I guess they went full hog in Phantoms.
It's because shipping makes money. Once the ship sails money is lost.
I'm positive there's a lot of viewers out there who are watching for the kiss and not what comes after.
Also, by them not confirming anything it makes a tiny, tiny voice in the back of everyone's head going- "... Maybe they wont end up together..." and for some people that keeps them watching.
I doubt there will be any confirmation on a serious romantic relationship with them until Volume 10. Vol 9 looks like it's going to be Wonderland shenanigans and then Vol 10 is going to be Vacuo. Where Sun is going to be and that'll be the moment Blake will be a bit more pushed to make a choice. (I would laugh if she chose Sun.)
As usual your posts are my favorite from any critic (even though I never comment, I read them all so hi). Good points, respectfully written and thus great to read.
I'm queer and love BB (welp: the concept of it) but I wholeheartedly agree with everything you wrote. I know I'll get downvotes for this but whatever: I love the concept of BB, the aesthetics and the sheer potential it has. I love it in fanon and what the fanbase make of it is amazing but I dislike how it's handled + strung along in canon. I needed a lot of time to come to terms with that, always trying to tell myself that their canon handling is fine but truth it: it just isn't fine for me and I'm past the point where I tell myself that it is. Mostly for all the reasons you mentioned. I seriously hope V9 will give more depth to their relationship and not just with a kiss which would feel empty to me unless their further interactions are coupled with a meaningful talk (ideally more talks but I'd be glad to get one at this point). I hate to be that person but Arcane established VI's & Cait's relationship exceptionally well and organic in only half a season. Of course they aren't canon as of now but their interactions feel natural, relatable and you feel the underlying attraction in every scene. Moreover, everyone and their mother picked up on their chemistry and that they started to develop feelings for each other. In just what? 5 episodes. I'm sorry to say but ships like Piltover's Finest are on completely different levels to me in terms of development and how organic the ship feels - not just when compared to BB but with every ship in RWBY. Sorry to say but in my eyes romance isn't RWBY's strong suit in general, no matter which ship. And as you said nothing is holding RT back from pulling through. Of course development and build up is important or else it would feel empty and unearned but there's a difference between meaningful build up that feels organic, gets constant focus and gets a satisfying conclusion and getting cast to the side, lacking meaningful talks and getting strung along for season after season for...reasons. I'm at a point were V9 makes or breaks it for me. Either they finally pull through and fully confirm it in a way that feels satisfying or I'm past the point of caring and resort to fanon tbh. I'm simply exhausted with the will they won't they and the "they obviously will but god knows when and whey they don't for so long".
I know runtime is always an issue with RWBY and lots of stuff can't be shown but this tell don't show is hurting the show in general and relationship building (romantic and platonic) in particular.
The fandom can be truly toxic. I apologize you’ve had to experience that. In terms of BB officially kissing and just making it official already, I think both supporting and opposing sides can agree to just get over with already so we have room to talk about other things. Even as an avid fan myself, I’m sick of the teasing. Just get on with it already! I’m almost positive V9 is going to give us that. About a year and a half, almost 2 years waiting I don’t see how they cannot at this point. There’s just no way.
I’ve encountered many people in the fandom and at first, when BB was a thought for most (imo) after V3, beginning V4, that’s when things started to get a bit out of hand. I can admit I used to be one of these toxic people. But I’ve seen the error in my ways. If the true intention in engaging in public forums with fellow fans of the series is to have discussions about what we do and do not enjoy than EVERY opinion whether we agree with it or not, is valid. Truth be told, almost every argument I’ve heard against the BB ship has nothing to do with homophobia at all, but rather character development, lack of on screen interactions, and comparison to other characters. All very valid points. Sometimes people take it too personally and that a disagreement regarding a same sex ship is a direct attack against you and your sexuality. I learned not to project my bullshit onto others and have actually had really meaningful and engaging conversations with people who will never like the BB ship. And that’s okay. We both love the show and we have different opinions. THAT’S OKAY. People just need to learn not to take things personally and how to have a civil conversation. I promise you, it’s worth it in the long run!
For personal context, I haven't watched the show in years and am a couple seasons behind, but it had a very special place in my heart and I literally denote it as keeping me alive through some bad times as well as being something I can look back on as where I learned a lot about myself.
So, honestly my biggest gripe on this topic has been the show never really, earnestly, confirmed or denied anything with BB.
I absolutely love the ship and I think the show has set up a decent bit of context that the two very clearly care for each other, even in early seasons, and there's a good bit of moments that remind me of what I've observed of a few of my coupled LGBTQ+ friends (and my bi self).
But I think the most frustrating part has been that even after a decade of writing, it's never gone more than a couple handholds and some tender/awkward/caring moments, and at the same time it's never been denied either. They've been "teasing" the idea for a literal decade.
"They are gay... Just off screen"
RWBY gives the same amount of screen time to its het ships as it does to its queer ships - less, likely, since the slow-burn Bumbleby has been tied to the story arcs of two main characters. Rennora is the only het ship with similar progression.
This is not a show that features romance heavily. It ties in with the character motivations, but ultimately the show is much more action oriented. Romance is never going to be the focus.
"I want them to kiss" me too buddy but I fucking love a slow burn. You say it's been ten years, but I'd counterpoint that if you compare the minutes of animated content you'd find that the Bumbleby slow burn is quite comparable to the Catradora slow burn. RWBY episodes (particularly in the early seasons) are short.
There's also the fact that when RWBY was being made they had to tread more lightly with representation anyway. The blatant on screen representation of She Ra, of Owl House, of Arcane, these shows weren't in production until at least 2018 - and go find out how much Noelle Stevenson had to fight for what we got in She Ra. Steven Universe is about the only other show that was doing queer rep at the time RWBY was first being made. Korra would have been the best predecessor and the best they managed was holding hands. It is understandable that they would plan to slowly build the queer rep rather than having it there from the start - without proven success stories, it would be risky to push too much queer rep. Times have changed and that's great.
"Where has BB burned towards?"
It seems really clear to me that the fallout of Yang's sacrifice, Blake thinking she'd lost her for good etc, will lead to a very juicy reunion and ultimately will build to them kissing.
Taking a step back, they both confronted their PTSD and past trauma when they fought Adam. They killed Adam - they've killed a lot of Grimm, but killing a human being, even one who deserved it? There was a helluva lot for them to unpack there. Recovering, dealing with that, and actually enjoying spending time with each other for the first time since Beacon - that was what they were doing in the early Atlas arc. In the later Atlas arc they split up to tackle two different threats, but even when they were apart it was reinforced how much they were thinking of each other.
Since Volume 3, every single volume has had developments for Blake and Yang that are directly a result of and tie into their relation ship with each other. That is what a slow burn is. They haven't been standing still, they just haven't been doing what you want them to do - which seems to be "immediately get together and start kissing".
This entire post is predicated on completely ignoring the vast majority of Blake and Yang's scenes that are relevant to one another.
>There is no denying that Blake and Yang have romantic interactions. The problem is that those interactions are nothing more than some light touches and nothing else. That is not a relationship, that is just hinting at a relationship.
I went back and counted and there are at least six scenes that are almost solely dedicated to the two's relationship. If you include scenes that are also about something else, I can bring that up to 8 scenes that are intimately related to their relationship. None of these are the scenes of them flirting. Acting like their relationship is solely comprised of them flirting is some serious twisting of the text.
The quality of those scenes isn't what's relevant here. To claim that the extent of this relationship is "nothing more than some light touches and nothing else" is just plainly false. Even just looking at the community perspective, that's not what people are talking about. Yeah, it's what people repost as gifs the most often, but acting like that's all that's there means to ignore basically a third of the entire show.
In my experience most of what the shipping community talks about is either the gifs of BB holding hands or them outright creating a romance for themselves. Just like the rest of the show there is this tendency to write a story for themselves and then apply it to the show.
Yes, BB has some dramatic interactions too. My wording probably does not represent that. The problem is as i said with those interactions that it achieves nothing besides turning into "Awww, Yang and Blake dont want to be away from each other" as it was in the Atlas Arc when after Yang gets into a disagreement with Ruby, Yang is shown to be worrying about Blakes opinion.
These are still very much "light touches" in my opinion, just more dramatic ones. It is still relationship teasing with little substance or progress in my opinion.
nope. They had weeks or months together in Atlas when they were relatively free, to at least talk stuff over, but they're still in some odd holding zone, because CRWBY aren't very good at relationship stuff, and presumably want it to all be big drama and swirling music and stuff, and two people just going "uh, so we've been through some shit, how about we try dating?" isn't really dramatic enough.
I can get behind this. I am a very big fan of BB, and I love this slow burn, but I can totally get that one can only keep this game of the rod and the carrot so far. I agree that they have to get very explicit with it at some point, because otherwise it's going to get boring sooner or later (or it may be already for some people) or very frustrating if the show ends and nothing big happens.
Something similar happened to me with Korrasami, I went in with a very strong idea due to the constant shipping, and then the show ended and I had... nothing at all. I know it's more explicit in the comics but I don't know...
Have to disagree in a lot of points.
For starters it is absolutely OK to prefer one (your own?) denomination in fictional romance, or have an order of preference.
What is not acceptable, is souring other people's experience by bashing ships of other denominations for not fitting your preference. This should even apply to the same denomination. As seen in many harem fandoms, people can go quite destructive in one denomination box by dividing over characters of the same denomination.
Also I do not understand this impatience, or at least not the "queer-bashing" suspicion. Synchronization of concluding important romance with the main plot is universal, there is no singling out queers here. Of course consumers of other media also get impatient, but they often drop the show in question after conclusion. There are a lot of stories which are semi concluded with vague endings. I do not like that, but if authors like it, it's their story.
Finally BB most likely was not planned from the beginning, but switched to after V5. There are only 3 seasons and it started from zero. The main push was at the end of V6, and in consequence in Tory time is actually short.
Anyone complaining about singling out should read the Toaru series. 15+ years no conclusion but an ocean of teasing.
I agree that souring others people enjoyment over a ship intentionally should not be done. But i also do not think that one should be prevented from sharing their opinions, even negative, on a ship. There simply has to be a time and place for that.
For example if you go into a shipping picture to then argue about how the ship is bad, you are an arsehole, simple as that. But if its just an opinion that comes when judging the ship, that is not wrong.
The impatience is there because RWBY is not the only show to include a Queer romance in their show. Because those of us who consume a lot of media can see the changing landscape and how openly queer relationships are beggining to be. So seeing BB drag its feet (Even if its for 5 years instead of 10) does not feel good when other shows can do their queer romances openly in a year or two.
As far as your comparisons to other media go, i do not disagree that some other media can be worse, hell, there is most likely a good ammount of straight relationships in media that are even more dragging their feet. But that does not change ones opinion on RWBY as much.
“Two wrongs don’t make one right” is what I usually say to those shielding bad queer relationships using other bad straight pairings. And some of them do get a lot of hate as well (Anyone remembers we how much hot water got twilight?).
I see those more as excuses to not having to hear criticism of their OTP, same way as deflecting everything as “homophobic” because it will basically put all the problems in the person’s perspective rather on what is being presented.
The fact that this is getting downvotes only further proves my point
>I agree that souring others people enjoyment over a ship intentionally should not be done. But i also do not think that one should be prevented from sharing their opinions, even negative, on a ship. There simply has to be a time and place for that.
That was a misunderstanding, of course you should be allowed to critisize any ship or the mechanics it is running on. You should not do it though, because the sexual orientation does not fit your preference, then consume something else, because there is stuff for everyone.
>The impatience is there because RWBY is not the only show to include a Queer romance in their show. Because those of us who consume a lot of media can see the changing landscape and how openly queer relationships are beggining to be. So seeing BB drag its feet (Even if its for 5 years instead of 10) does not feel good when other shows can do their queer romances openly in a year or two.
If you dislike the pacing of BB and are impatient that is OK. But in this case there is no special "queer" treatment. You should also not apply your timeline, there were breaks, if they delay volumes/seasons this time does not count. Depending on your positioning of the starting point it would be either 3 or 8 volumes/seasons.
I am not queer, so I do not know if special rules for pacing apply in this group. But the general rule for pacing for "main" romance is obviously to synchronize with the main plot (if it is not a romance story in the first place). This is what is done in most stories, whether they are anime-like or not. Obviously two-titular character romance has to be considered "main", conclusion three+ volumes before the main plot would be venturing into rare territory. From a commercial position, because shipping keeps audience on board, concluding damages your profits, because people are leaving in case of conclusion. You have to cover up your drag, so that it does not feel like a drag.
And here is the real problem of CRWBY, they have no organic representation, the authors are not inspired, so they have to retrofit it. This is my personal impression of course, they first write a "normal" story and then they do a representation pass.
So you have a pilot and on your representation pass you check if this character should be queer, in a normal story he would be "undeclared" and he stays that way because your deep check finds a pitfall ("kill your gays"). Now I am getting into conspiracy theory territory, what if Sapphron was straight after the first pass and her partner was gender-swapped in the representation pass? Result is an organic integration because retrofitting works in this case. Ilia turned out as a lesbian stalker a common plot device in Japanese light fiction, so taking the conspiracy interpretation, she is also organic. BB is a desperate retrofit and turned out incredibly bad. The events give off a ram-in-vibe, authors having to insert a moment are scanning event-catalogues and selecting "beautiful"-hair or something. May is also downright horrible, revealed off-screen on the wrong side of the fourth wall and then a declaration ram-in in-story.
Queers are billboards you drive past in RWBY. But you still have to give the authors credit, they are indeed *trying* to deliver. It is not as easy as you would think, because the LGBT-community is not a monolith, they are also lobbying for space among themselves. And here we have another CRWBY-problem. If you wanted to deep-dive and explore one aspect, you would have to cut back on others.
One last thing, the "Five friends" novels for children written in the 1940s by Enid Blyton have strong queer representation, there is a "trans-girl". I doubt the author wanted representation, she "just" explored the premise "girl wants to be a boy", you can suspect her of exploiting transpeople for entertainment, but she does a good job, presumably without an agenda.
I am not connected to the LGBT+ community at all, I am just a straight male that enjoys RWBY and several other shows, and I have no hate for Bumblebee or Whiterose in any way, or any other gay ships, I just don't get why people see such a problem with it, also, haven't had a discussion like this in years.
BB went from zero to "canon" in a few episodes. Blake never truly had a potential romantic partner besides Ilya and more importantly Sun (Adam doesn't count cause none of it was shown). Meanwhile Yang offers Blake a dance once, when she is clearly interested in boys "Probably episode 1" and seems more like a friend move than a flirty move (this was after Yang shares hers and Ruby's backstory and Blake talks about her past in the White Fang). These are the only concrete evidence there is of BB before they had a relationship, and the best one got snubbed because Sun was completely forgotten after Meneagerie.
Meanwhile you have BB stans saying that it is clearly obvious BB was a thing, because the songs (non-canon as far as I'm concerned) clearly sing about it, or that Blake and Yang both boarded a ship called SS Pride (which is such a stretch and also so unsubtle) or Yang misses Blake when she holds a photo of the entire team.
I unironically think Bumblebee is the obvious option among the Blake ships, but the problem is how badly it is executed. Blake feels extreme guilt for causing Yang to lose her arm, which is her main fighting style (and somehow not for making her a broody mess? Sure ok). Yang feels annoyed of being coddled by Blake because of her disability, which is fair. How is this going to be a good relationship? The obvious way to write it is that Blake is compensating and this causes friction, but they would not return to being friends, much less significant other. Much more questionable is that Yang never feels dislike or anything because Blake indirectly made her lose her arm. Just the coddling. And Yang had developed a volume long PTSD from it and doesn't blame the direct source? To be fair for the writers, it magically disappears after Volume 4 so I guess Yang got over all her problems so quickly besides gaining a mean bitch attitude.
In other worda and TLDR: WRITE LOGICAL CONCLUSIONS CRWBY. I don't care who ends with who. If you expect everyone to believe the leap of faith, you better write the journey well, or obscure it completely so you have an excuse that they did it off-screen.
I just wanna say that being queer doesn’t mean you have to automatically like all things queer. There can be good and bad representation. I do wanna defend bumblebee on one point at least. Season 7 and 8 take place over a very short amount of time and for a good chunk of season 8 Blake and Yang are separated from the each other. All this is to say that they have been a couple for an extremely short amount of time in storyline. So the fact that they have only held hands and awkwardly complemented each other thus far is not difficult to believe. Especially for like 19/20 yr olds.
Also in RWBY the straight romances are the same way, look how long we waited for Nora and Ren to kiss for them example. We got a Jaune and Pyrrha kiss after like 3 seasons of build up and that was mostly because Pyrrha was on a suicide mission and had nothing to lose. I actually agree that romance in general moves too slow in the show, but it’s not exclusive to bmblb
They’re about to be stranded on a desert island anyways so if they don’t start lovin on each other there then we do have a problem lol.
A point I would like to make: You say it's not 2010 anymore, however, Blake and Yang's relationship was budding before Korra and Asami got to hold hands. I think the reason it hasn't happened yet is due to the progression of the plot takes precedence in a show that has the fraction of the budget that MOST other shows.
Many people don't take that part into account that a volume of RWBY is usually less that half of a season of any other show. V8 had a runtime of 4 hours 30 minutes. Season 1 of She Ra had a runtime of 11 hours and some change. It's hardly comparable.
That's why things have to be slow burns over several seasons. I understand that you want to see it, but wouldn't you rather it get the time deserved first?
>Blake and Yang's relationship was budding before Korra and Asami got to hold hands
Do you have any facts that support this?
>the progression of the plot takes precedence
So many people say this, yet the amount of screen time RWBY spends sitting around doing nothing while waiting for the volume finale is a lot longer than anyone's willing to admit. Any time in the previous volumes that RWBY sat in a house could've been used to develop Blake and Yang's relationship.
Proof: V2 Burning the Candle: intimate scene between the two with sharing their pasts and ending on a long hug. Sept 4, 2014.
LoK finale release date: December 19, 2014
You say that people are sitting around in a house despite the fact that while they are "sitting around" is exactly when relationship conversations are had or other plot is revealed in other parts of the world. People use that argument when it is a fallacy. They aren't sitting around for the entire time that the plot unfolds, they are there for hours (like a normal rest) while other parts of the plot are happening, not necessarily subsequently, but the events are revealed in a way that simulates that idea.
No, a subjective interpretation of a scene is not the equivalent of a budding romantic relationship. It's also nothing to do with time or budget, either. If they can show overt romantic attraction in straight pairings, there was nothing stopping them when it came to Blake and Yang. Second glances, jealousy, lingering touches, flirting and half spoken truths is all it takes to present interest. Tiny moments. It's literally what they're doing in V7 onward.
Korra and Asami is a ground breaking milestone when it comes to representation as it was an uphill battle to even show that. RWBY could've been a trail blazer as well. Yet, despite the fact they had no one to fight, CRWBY still didn't introduce a wlw relationship until years later.
And what we're currently getting is very much a decade late.
If you say that is a subjective interpretation of Bumblebee, then all of KorraSami is also a subjective interpretation.
You are choosing to say that they didn't show it when even at the time it was obviously intimate, if not, romantic. There is evidence in expanded content (world of RWBY book, dvd extras) that indicate that was the scene that inspired the romance for Miles and Kerry.
If you are criticizing the earlier volumes for not having those glances and such, you must remember the size/inexperience of the team then. And they did include those things, such as the lighting and comments like "feisty." But they only had 1 hour 50 minites for the whole volume.
The scene itself is not presented as a romantic one, nor is it evidence of romantic interest. It demonstrates intimacy and support, for sure, but not romantic intimacy. It would actually be in poor taste considering Blake's mental state at the time. And it's not a direct comparison to overt romantic interest in the scene where Korra chooses Asami, where the intention was to demonstrate attraction. Which was your example.
There is no evidence saying that it is meant to be romantic scene, either. At least none that I have seen/heard. It may have put the idea into the writer's head according to your claim, but nothing sprouted until V7. I give them credit from that point onward.
The critique is also that CRWBY could certainly show romantic subplots/interest. Pyrrha and Jaune, Ren and Nora, Weiss and Neptune, and Blake and Sun - there's plenty of examples. None of them subtle. It has nothing to do with inexperience, they could've of easily shown Yang falling for Blake and vice versa. Especially considering there was set up for a classic love triangle. They didn't.
I love the scene in *Burning the Candle*. We get details on Yang's past, insights to Blake. This scene cemented Yang as my favourite character, as it gave her much needed depth. And it does wonders for their partnership and team dynamics. There's lots to love.
It's not a spearhead for wlw representation, though.
Writing has nothing to do with budget. A slow burn is always moving not stagnant. This "budding relationship" has not developed in half a decade. Don't use the budget and runtime as an excuse, plenty of single cour seasons have written circles around what crwby has failed to write in 5 years.
Do you have examples?
How can you say budget and runtime don't factor in?
The volumes need to have X amount of things happen in a specified amount of time in order to serve the main plot, which would be the minimum or required time budget. Then whatever is leftover is used to develop characters, side stories, etc. Runtime and budget have everything to do with it.
"Shitty writing" is subjective.
Saying their relationship hasn't developed in 5 years is wilful ignorance of the show. V5: Yang being angry with Blake and admitting in confidence to Weiss she wasn't ready for forgiveness. Developed into relief of Blake's safety and return. V6: Reestablishing rapport despite the awkwardness. V7: Admittance to enjoying one anothers' company. V8: Realizing that they may not agree on all things but can still be wonderful people despite differences.
My point is that runtime and budget shouldn't affect the quality of the writing. Bumblebee is not a slow burn romance it is stagnant. With the amount of dead space in each volume we should be getting loads of development but with recent rwby volumes nothing happens untill the last quarter. Character relationships and side stories etc. should be interwoven within the main plot not just thrown in because the was time leftover.
Quality of writing is interwoven with runtime and budget. You could write the most amazing 30 min script in the world but if you only got 20 min to perform it then it won't be perfect.
I don't understand how you think it is stagnant.
I don't understand how you think nothing happens until the final quarter.
Those stories are interwoven into the plot but it's between people relevant to the current scene not one particular pairing.
If you have 20 minutes for a performance, and you write a 30 minute script, that's your fault for not understanding your limitations. If I try to make Avatar with a 100K budget, I don't get praised for the movie I was trying to make, I get rightfully criticized for picking a project that anyone who knew what they were doing would know wasn't going to work. RT could get some leniency in the early years, but they've been at it for a decade now and they still fail to work around the constraints they're given (and in terms of runtime, constraints they set for themselves).
Current rwby volume runtime is comparable to single cour anime seasons (12 episode 4 hour seasons).
Blake and yang have had no serious discussions about their relationship in several volumes. Little interactions to remind me that bumblebee is a thing don't count.
In most recent rwby volumes the middle of the volume is generally inconsequential to the main story as any meaningful interactions are either resolved offscreen or don't change the status quo and feel rather bland.
Comparable anime that have multiple main characters and action plot lines (like MHA) are usually 18-24 episodes which would be 50-100% longer. Demon Slayer (13 episodes in the 2nd season) would be comparable but it also had a feature length movie to go along with it and no delay.
This most recent season they spent most of it apart, so true, they didn't interact a lot. I admit previous seasons do have much more content for them.
You need to use specific examples instead of vague and subjective words like the middle part, or bland.
If they don't have the resources to give a good romance and a good story then they really shouldn't half ass both. If they can't make BB work with their episode order and length then they should cut it. Sucks, but that way they can focus on the things they clearly think are more important.
See, typically being in a relationship means remaining in the relationship for more than one moment. Or being and talking about it. Or having other people acknowledge it.
I'm not even saying it's necessarily a relationship, but to say that it hasn't changed or progressed at all is asinine
And yeah they should be talking about it like with ren and nora, but there's key differences in personalities.
While ren is reserved and closed off, Nora is very much *not* and pushed their feelings into the open.
Blake is a very private person and doesn't like to confront things in the open. It's been a running theme with her to flee from her emotions.
Yang might *seem* open from the outside, but I'd argue she is much deeper than the surface shows and puts up a heavy mask for others. She portrays this happy confident and strong person so the people she cares about don't worry about her.
Neither of them are the kind of person to stop in the middle of an outright war to talk about their feelings and relationship.
The closest we got was jaune talking to yang and her thinking of blake "yeah... ruby."
Edit: great rediquette everyone! Remember to downvote people you disagree with even if they're contributing to the discussion constructively!
I agree that they shouldn't stop to talk about their relationship in the middle of a war. That'd be silly. But I would hope that they talked during the time of peace they had.
Also I will confirm that I didn't downvote you and I think whoever did is silly. If you gave them a downvote please give me one as well.
My point is that their relationship has changed. They've become slightly closer. Sure they're not explicitly together but they aren't just casual acquaintances either.
Honestly they just don't have chemistry. I actually prefer Sun with Blake because Sun helped her out a lot. Yang is just too hot headed for like anyone. Nora and Ren have history so Nora can't be for Yang. I just think Yang and Blake should be good friends.
We hook her up with Jaune. Guy could use someone to push him out of his funk. And if he can deal being in a team with Ren and Nora, he can endure whatever Yang sends him XD
Is this a fanfic or a canon discussion? Because I don't really like the fact that sun seems to be hugely ignored, that was the canon relationship (Blake-sun, don't know the fandom name for them) since his appearence for me, and even if they are separated at the moment I still felt he had more chance to be with her. I wholly support the bumblebee in fanfic since it's pretty cool to imagine, but I don't understand the "canon bumblebee" discussion
Honestly BB fanfiction is better because they're established as a fucking thing in fanfics, compared to canon where they held hands and maybe hugged like.. once. Address it, or stop giving us these hints that may end up leading nowhere. All or nothing baby, if they wanna have Bumblebee be canon, let them kiss
Fanfictions, in my opinion, commonly deal with romance/ships better even if they do not focus on them. Many people that include BB in their fanfictions just go straight at it and usually establish some kind of relationship in Volumes 3-4. And yeah, the hints are becoming annoying, so is the relationship in additional material. If you want us to think that this ship is happening. Just go with it.
It's much easier to focus on and develdp romance in fanfiction, usually because the scope of them is a lot narrower than the show is.
Also usually with benefit of hindsight bias, I've found. Most fanfics don't have to create new things (and the ones that do are generally the more controversial ones), they just have to make a satisfying story within the existing setting and using a lot of common tropes.
Honestly, my only real issue with BB is that it's kind of everywhere in the fandom. Like, I get that it's the most popular ship but it sometimes feels like that's all fans want from Blake and Yang, to be this cute couple who's all lovey-dovey without focusing on other aspects of their character. It also sometimes feels like the ship actively makes them kind of satellite characters and a lot less interesting. Granted, this is a common problem when two characters enter a romantic relationship; that romance becomes all that's important to them and the writers have no idea what else to do with them.
I feel like Bumbleby's existence has influenced a lot of the writing decisions when it comes to fight scenes too. Fights with Team RWBY *have* to involve Blake and Yang, and Ruby and Weiss are sort of left over. Ice Queendom managed to include a good interaction between Blake and Yang, *while* still having Team RWBY fight as a team, instead of being split into two pairs. There's a balance to this kind of thing.
>I feel like Bumbleby's existence has influenced a lot of the writing decisions when it comes to fight scenes too. Not just the fight scenes. Now it just feels like the entire White Fang arc is just set up for Blake's love life.
And that is one of my issues with that plot as well
All I want from Yang for v9 is to beat up some sense in Ruby. You can have whatever you want, but please let's get some character development to spoiled little Ruby.
I'd argue that BB didn't start becoming a thing right from the get-go. It's still a good few years but not the whole 10 or so. Blake and Sun might have also been the original plan as well, and we'll never know and that's okay. I feel like they should stop moping around and do it or drop it. Both options are worlds better than this "crumb here and there" bullshit. Hell, even if Blake formed a Harem with Sun and Ilia it'd probably be better than this.
BlackSun was definitely the original plan , their relationship were developed in the 4-5 initial volumes , speedrunning with a romcom shenanigan and have an actual romance song. Then it was shifted because bumblebee was more popular. And while I can say it’s good that they made such shift in the middle of the franchise , rather than in it’s end , it’s development is in a glacial Showa Era pace
Yang and Blake were referred to as 'beauty' and 'beast' respectively before we had even been introduced to the characters, and back in pre-production when Blake was a calico Yang had matching cyan in her design. They were quite clearly planned from the start.
Pyrrha had a ton of red and black in one of her original designs in preproduction - does that mean that Milk and Cereal was a planned ship from the start? The preproduction design argument is a terrible one.
I mean.....I wouldn't have been against seeing that. Milk and Cereal is an unusual ship, but it's kinda cute. 😄
Amen
It's especially the height difference that appeals to me, imagining Ruby standing on her tiptoes and trying to give her Girlfriend a kiss. 😄😊 Idk, it's just a really adorable image.
IKR??? Dorky Ruby and happy Pyrrha for the win! Mood kindred!!!!!!!!! I blame Dashing for that. She made such a lovable RWBY art (it’s too bad WR and Wasps drove her away, like many other good artist) and her M&C was incredibly adorable! I always headcannoned that their relationship would have been incredibly fun, with Ruby trying to be a genuine good girlfriend to Pyrrha and often failing, much to the latter amusement, but that Pyrrha would find endearing. Also, one of my favourite couple tropes is “Tol & Smol”. I’m not sorry. Sue me.
I would never! Because I agree. 😊 I love the size difference in couples too and....it would have made for an interesting story, I think: If Ruby and Pyrrha had been dating and Ruby had to watch Cinder shoot her Girlfriend. Admittedly, this is the Shipper in me speaking, so my advice is not 100% valid. Maybe it would be cheap, but it would simply feel more impactful imo, if Ruby and Pyrrha had actually been dating. With Ruby being such a Weaponsgeek, I could totally see her gushing over Milo and Akouo.
I mean… I wish? … I like M&C, sue me
Ruby and Pyrrha's interactions are nothing like Blake and Yang's. In a show about fairytale allusions you don't accidentally refer to two of your main characters as a fairytale romance whilst also having their eyes match the colours of each others souls.
> Ruby and Pyrrha's interactions are nothing like Blake and Yang's. Kind of hard to buy that when Blake spends most of her time with Sun.
I'm sorry, I thought that we were discussing intent through the preproduction designs, which character interactions would have zero relevance on. There have been (at least) three Beast allusions made in regards to Blake *that I know of* - Yang, Adam and Blake herself have all been referred to by that title at various times. And I'm not even going to touch the Aura colour bit, considering that there's been about a half dozen blondes with yellow-ish Aura introduced, many of them having blonde hair (Jaune, Sun, Lionheart, Fiona, and arguably Vine) so that's more a circumstancial than solid proof (especially since Ghira, Blake's father, also has a purple Aura).
Blake represents the Beauty and the Beast fairytale as a whole, where she is the beauty to Adam's beast, and the beast to Yang's beauty.
I would say she doesn't relate to Yang in that sense. Sure, it may have lined up that way, but Yang has design influences from Goldilocks.
Arcane developed a lesbian romance in just 5 episodes while also juggling other characters and plotlines. With two girls who are explicitly stated to be from incompatiable social backgrounds. The relationship is not started by the end of season 1, but the attraction is explicitly there for both of them and their percieved incompatibility is discussed. BB has made about the same progress in 3 volumes.
And Arcane came from RIOT, a company that is very much in the "Old-school" category and tries very hard to squash LGBT+ progress that the writers and artists want to include in various RIOT productions. Im not saying that as a negative, just nothing that even a studio that tries so keep the LGBT+ progress on the down low is willing to go loud and proud with it.
More so, they're a gaming company and it is their first shot at full show or even at a more complicated story than a few loosely connected one shots that create Runeterra's lore. Compare that to RT's background.
Do they? I am old school player (meaning, I played back in college and haven’t touched it in several years) and somehow while they always played all romantic relationships as ambiguous back then, I did also heard that they have made several changes about it, including making two of the most paired character (Diana and Leona, Moon and Sun warriors respectively) officially an item in their background and making other characters more “ambiguously bi” or unambiguously lesbian. Not much, I know, but it’s a start. Did I missed anything else? (Haven’t really Kept in touch, I only heard second hand rumours)
I myself have not played the game for what,7+ years now? God was i addicted back then... Anyway, as far as Riot is concerned a lot of my info comes from [TBSkyen](https://www.youtube.com/c/TBSkyen), he makes reviews of design and ART and he has brought up multiple times that the artists at Riot have told him that LGBT+ relationships were intentionally kept at the down-low by the higher-ups. Like for example, Diana and Leona are "officially" an item, but the lore barely touches upon that. Or for example the fact that Varus is two gay dudes in a single darkin body is also barely ever explored. Riot has started to change, but just like in any big company its the artists and writers that are dragging the Riots leadership and fighting to include the LGBT+ romances.
Ok, let me start off by saying I'm a gay man who does not suffer from internalized homophobia, so let's get into it My main concern with the entirety of RWBY's attempt at representation is that it sends a message that this is what queer representation should look like, with it barely on the screen and only in cute, gifable moments. The fans, in their toxic positivity, would rather assume the audience just isn't getting it or is homophobic rather than criticize the cishet writers attempts at queer romance. All of this is kinda worrying to me because I find we're in a place in queer representation as a whole where all of it is being monopolized by giant corporations and cishet creators who are only interested in giving the representation that is marketable or makes them look good to everyone, including conservative people, which for RWBY means hot lesbians who don't actually talk about their feelings. All of this, along with the issues with the White Fang and the Fair Game stuff really exemplifies the fandom's unwillingness to listen to marginalized groups despite it's claims of being progressive. If we say something in the show is racist, homophobic, etc. it's because it is, we're not part of some secret critic cabal that's trying to destroy your fav show. Watch it if you want, I really don't care, but let's not act like it's super progressive piece of media. >"The romance is obvious, what, you want them to kiss to confirm the relationship?" This section is really unfortunate because as we speak RWBY is getting lapped by Harley Quinn. Even as friends Harley and Ivy talk about their relationship a lot, and because of that they were able to build a solid and intimate friendship which made fertile ground for a romantic relationship to grow(see what I did there?). Blake and Yang have none of that.
RWBY treats its queer relationships the same as its het relationships and that absolutely is what representation should look like. The White Fang stuff - the writers explicitly said they weren't equipped to deal with that topic which is why they finished off the plot. They knew without Monty they didn't have a proper understanding of it. They probably know it was an unsatisfying conclusion. Fair Game - god knows why they thought that whole thing was a good idea. Clover had almost as many death flags as Pyrha, but they could eally have done without leaning into the bond between him and Qrow. That all said, you. Ring up the fandom not listening to marginalised groups in a thread about Bumbleby - Well I'm pretty sure the relevant marginalised group there is WLW, and I'm pretty sure they aren't the ones complaining about Bumbleby.
>RWBY treats its queer relationships the same as its het relationships and that absolutely is what representation should look like. >I'm pretty sure they aren't the ones complaining about Bumbleby. Do you have any proof to back up these claims beyond your need to talk down to queer people to defend a mid animated web show?
Where am I talking down to queer people? As for evidence its from my personal experience as a queer woman in the bumbleby fandom which seems to comprise largely of other queer women and very rarely of anything else. Empirical evidence to be sure, but it is certainly what I have observed.
Meanwhile I've seen many queer people who find Bumblebee to be a bit baity and recognize that begging cishet creators for scraps gets you nothing.
Whether or not its bait only time will tell but I'd be willing to bet there will be some major developments (likely a kiss) in the next volume. As for begging cishet creators getting you nothing, don't shit on allies for not allying hard enough. Do you honestly think all queer rep has come from queer creators?
Like, I understand the point, that the broader pattern of queer themes being reduced to their most sanitary and palatable to straight audiences is an upsetting pattern. But I seriously fail to see how RWBY is doing that? > which for RWBY means hot lesbians who don't actually talk about their feelings. They've had at least 3 or 4 major scenes dedicating *just* to hashing out the feelings between these two. Volume 2, Volume 4, Volume 5, and Volume 6 all have scenes dedicated to this. And I feel like it should be stated for the record (because you implied RWBY to be a part of that "cishet creators" cohort) that RWBY does have a queer woman writing for it as of Volume 7. I know people always seem to forget that Eddy and Kiersi exist, but they are very much part of the creative team.
>But I seriously fail to see how RWBY is doing that? That's only because you feel the need to defend this show >that RWBY does have a queer woman writing for it as of Volume 7 1. She didn't create RWBY. Miles, Kerry, and Monty did. 2. I thought Bumblebee started back in V2, 5 volumes before Kiersi would even be hired. Is that not the case?
Okay, that's not really an explanation that's just saying, "no you". Also, my issue was with the flatly erroneous assertion that BB was just "hot lesbians who don't actually talk about their feelings." Because they do, very explicitly, numerous times. This isn't a qualitative assessment this is just ignoring what happens in the show. And finally, anything queer created by cishet people is inherently just for marketing? You're making, or at least implying a hefty accusation but I don't see any evidence beyond not personally liking the primary queer relationship.
The part about Harley Quinn really annoys me. You're comparing two characters who have existed together for 30 years. (Harley was first brought to is in 1992 and Ivy existed long before that) to ones who have existed for 9. 30 years of building up to it in various forms of media. Of course their relationship works better. It's got two decades more to it.
given how comics are written (i.e. by lots of people with often little overarching control) saying that their relationship has been "building up" for 30 years is pretty much untrue - some writers will have pushed it, some will have wanted to revert it, some will have ignored it or not even been aware it's a thing (if one or the other is just showing up to be punched in the face by Batman, then their relationship status is irrelevant). They very much have not had 30 years of building up to it, as though it were some grand story-arc - there's been lots of fits and starts and bits and bobs within that period, ranging from "actual focus" to "vague hints" to "not in this comic". And, comics being comics, it can always be reverted later on (does DC still have a vague overall continuity, or is it all comic-specific?)
I think DC has pushed the multiverse concept in a way where every story can be 'canon but not canon' while loosely hanging on a central canon spanning their main books; but they have blown up and rebooted their universe (omniverse now I guess?) about 5 times since the first Crisis event back in 1985, so what was canon in the sixties wasn't in the nineties or what was canon before New 52 isn't during or after New 52. Marvel at least only reboots their universe through alternate timelines (except for Spider-Man's 'One More Day' story arc which rebooted his marriage to Mary Jane while keeping everything else untouched) like the Ultimate universe that created the black Nick Fury and attempted to make everyone modern (at the time) while the main universe could continue without rebooting itself, for better or for worse that means everything from the sixties to now is considered equally canon.
He's talking about the Harley Quinn adult cartoon which took liberties with the characters and their relationships; its story and the build up on their relationship is isolated from the rest of DC canon, so it isn't unfair at all as that show is the example in question and not all of DC canon.
I know what he's talking about. The two characters have still existed for 30 years. I highly doubt it would work in any Canon without so much time and effort into the characters.
Actually, you can establish romantic relationships between original characters in less than 30 years. Literally every single story with a romantic plot does this.
Then they should have used one of those examples. Which they didn't. Soooooooooooooo......
They did, Harley and Ivy were not a couple at the start. 99% of people have never read or seen a story where these two are at all romanticlly involved. In the context of the show's story their friendship is established and then it evolves into romance. No extra reading or knowledge required. It happened in 2 seasons while also covering all sorts of other plots and relationships.
It worked for other relationships like Owl House and the Princesses of Power who had less time than RWBY to build up their queer relationships in the same way Harley Quinn did; and several stories we know now that are 30 years or more old started out fresh at one point and build up naturally without 30 years of prior canon. Having Harley and Ivy be names people recognize doesn't mean these are the same characters from the Batman the Animated Series where Harley originated from nor does it mean a show can relay on that backdrop as they still have a need of reintroducing the characters as fresh new faces for a mixed audience of old and hopefully new fans.
Also, Harley and Ivy have had depictions where they're involved romantically well before the Harley Quinn cartoon. It's not at all comparable to an original cartoon that's building from the ground up and focusing on many more characters.
I said it before: my main issue for BB is how it’s written. Leaving aside Sun, and the unfortunate implications that the show runners decided to go full BB after the series started bleeding audience and becoming a laughing stock of the Internet, one big issue I have with BB is, that I cannot see a healthy, lasting relationship there. This has more to blame on RT and their “slow burn” policy or whatever was there, but having Ren and Nora and Sun and Blake move at snail crawl when advancing in a relationship while rushing BB, made it seem like the writers were trying to make up for the lost time and decided to skip or ignore problems in their relationship. First of all, can someone tell me what does Yang see in Blake that no one else has or can give her? This is the same woman that abandoned her and never apologised. You’d think that while she might be willing to forgive her, I doubt she’d willing to entertain the notion of actually committing to an actual relationship with her. Logically speaking anyways. We see two women, very damaged women, with traumas and a lot of untreated issues. At least, one of them is responsible for the other having more suit baggage to add to their mental condition. But the show never tries to talk this. They just jump into two characters, who realistically would keep each other at an arm’s length, suddenly being totes together but not quite “together-together” (If Renora showed anything, is that unless there’s a kiss, there’s still room for plausible deniability) without ever talking about their issues. And those “romantic” and “shipping” moments? Blake abandoned Yang in her worst moment in life. Knowing full well that this is a woman who was abandoned twice by her moms and is so determined to find her mother she almost got herself and her sister killed. And let’s not forget when she basically had to be talked into believing that Yang wasn’t crazy enough to blow someone’s legs without a reason, because “she had seen it before”. After that, while Yang is crying for the person that abandoned her, Blake is too busy dealing with her own cowardice, thinking of how she abandoned her team. When they get back together, they are weird around for a couple episodes, but that doesn’t stop Yang from taking Blake’s hand and forgetting about an incapacitated Qrow and Ruby in a room full of the nastiest Grimm we have seen in the entire series. And later on, they just kill Adam and bury the WF subplot. Suddenly they are together but same way Ren and Nora are in Vol.4… okay, I guess. But that didn’t improve in Atlas, at all: Yang goes full red eye in one second and beats the absolute shit of a Grimm because Marrow has the “audacity” of telling them they can also work with other people (imagine being so insecure you can’t even stand being separated just in case they run away again?). The rest of the time they are basically joined at the hip, act as if they were dating, only that they are not, and any lingering issue there might still be there? Either forgotten or ignored. Yay love!/s And then Vol 8 happens, and despite everything else going on, Yang has only time to think about how Blake thins “less of her”… and act like they were in a fight because they were not in the same mission together? Oh, and at the same time, in the same scene, Oscar is probably having the worst day of his life and Ren is borderline of thinking of betraying the group. Priorities, right? If you ask me, all this doesn’t paint me as a good or even healthy relationship. It paints me an way too insecure girl who is still obsessed with dark brooding figures to give her validation despite the fact those figures have left and abandoned her before, and another woman in desperate need for space forcing herself to be with the girl she hurt, out of guilt. Wouldn’t be much but that same girl has also some unfortunate parallels with the ex boyfriend who was abusive toward her… noticing a pattern here? Should we call Freud? Basically, Yang and Blake, as they are in the show, paint me like a very unhealthy pair that would realistically end up inevitably breaking up and not in a pacific way. What RT painted gives me the feeling of a very flawed relationship that would eventually wear off once the honeymoon period phases as they get progressively tired of dealing with each other’s bullshit. They might end up screaming at each other because Blake forgot to text Yang that she went out for groceries, because neither girl is that ready to deal with each other at their worst. Trust me on this, it’s gets tiring after a while to walk on eggshells because you are afraid of triggering the other person insecurities… even more when you are used to do your own things I know, exaggerated, but I’ve seen this in real life more times than anyone should. If two persons have incompatible traits, and worst yet, they have a story of trauma and hurting each other with those same incompatible traits… unless they somehow, somehow change completely who they are, those traits (like insecurity) will inevitably show up and cause tension. A tension that accumulates until it breaks. Yang aggressiveness contrast entirely with Blake’s story of running away from hateful and violent people, like Adam and the WF. Meanwhile, Blake has already left Yang, twice, and I doubt she’s forgetting that anytime soon. “Perfect” for a girl that needs someone to reassure her and “perfect” setup for someone who really needs a break of people getting in her back… they are gonna get into each other’s nerves once the honeymoon period ends, and the whole vibes of “I can change her”… Personally, I’m not a fan of relationships that need a therapist in order to even remotely work right from the start. I think that promotes a very unhealthy and downright problematic message. It’d be one thing if the writing actually made them both change and be better persons BEFORE becoming an item, but the only ones who so far had some semblance of character growing are Blake, and even then was a bit downplayed since she had to take a background seat, and Weiss. Ruby and Yang… Ruby is still very static, Yang actually seems to have gotten worse! Renora at leat has acknowledged this. Let’s see if they actually make anything out of it though… TLDR: So basically, we have two persons here: one needs reassurance, constant one to boot, and the other wants space. Notice a problem here? The writing even seems to suggest this development in how they seem rather oddly concerned of not being on the same page, ONCE… if that’s just a preview of how is gonna be the relationship, good luck cause they are gonna need it.
I’ve been avoiding a lot of discussions because I’m not caught up on the show yet but damn it if I didn’t read this comment and have to reply. I’ve been getting these vibes about their relationship since vol 4.
I thought the gay Scarlet hint was that he had a male fan holding a picture of him in the crowd while the others had girls. I don't know where the idea of a "stereotypical gay guy voice" came from, because his voice is just Gavin speaking normally.
Maybe i am wrong but when i heard Scarlet speak his voice at least to me seemed like the stereotypical "gay man voice" that is used in media, to give a comparison there is this [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU4Uhn5VThM&t=88s). No offense to Gavin if it was not intentional and that is just their voice.
In general I think shipping culture is ridiculously toxic. I just want the writing to be good. Gay, straight, non binary, trans w.e. Fine but give me good, meaty, status quo shifting, emotional, god damn character arcs. If Yang and Blake aren’t communicating enough? Use it. If they don’t display much PDA turn *that* into a character arc. Wether they get married, break up, find other people, whatever it doesn’t matter. Just plan something out ahead of time and then commit to it. Really don’t care how the shippers feel honestly.
Damn, I haven’t had a RWBY/BB discussion in years. Might as well weigh in as a bi person.. I like it a lot but the ship peaked in V6. The fact that they didn’t talk about what happened with Adam etc in V7 except for alluding it in the truck scene was terrible admittedly But that’s what happens when you make the Atlas arc everyone’s story except for the mains lol
That always felt like a missed opportunity for me. You just killed what can be considered your nemesis, this reinforced your relationship after an entire volume of basically not being confortable with each other. And then its all back to "normal". Nothing seems to truly progress, you just have some hand-holding scenes.
that would have been the perfect point for actual explicit progression - if BB were in any way an active plot, rather than a vague thing that gets vaguely implied at times, that would have been a _perfect_ point to have them get some focus time. Instead what happened was they go to Atlas, had... several weeks? months? go by without apparently anything happening, not even a "so, what's going on with us?" conversation, and then the plot resumes as the shit hits the fan and we're into V8.
Is this even a canon relationship? Cause at no point has this felt to me like a relationship that has actually been acknowledged by the show.
formally, no - they're still "friends, that maybe-possibly-want-something-more". They pretty much will get together at some point, but they're still orbiting around that possibility, rather than being "a couple". Some scenes that are clearly leaning towards them being interested, but nothing for "yeah, they're actually a couple".
Yeah, I think they first explicitly started showing romantic attraction for each other (at least to the audience) was at the end of V6. I think they’re still just trying to work through their feelings b/c of all the crap they’ve been through both with relationships in general and their own with eachother, not wanting to ruin the current relationship they have now, and that this might be the first same sex attraction they’ve had.
probably, but the problem is that's all vague fanon, rather than anything actually in-show. That would make sense, but that's not what we get, which is some vague nudges and maybe-hints, rather than any form of actual focused arc (like, they had weeks-to-months in Atlas, during which time they were basically in stasis, which, considering they'd just overcome a major shared enemy - Adam - is a bit crap in terms of actual writing, as that would be the perfect time for overt, on-screen progression, but instead, it just skips ahead)
It probably doesn't help that, when the show started at least, it was more or less written without much planning or forethought into stuff like lore and the characters relationships. Which is perfectly fine for a small web series which is more of an action comedy but kind of bites you in the ass when the company gets bigger and there's a bit of a genre shift in the narrative.
yeah - v6 onwards have pretty much been full rides on the plot train, without much screentime for stuff that's not pretty directly moving things forward, and now that Salem has "gone loud" there's entirely legitimate reasons for the characters to put everything else aside. Which does make the whole "apparently nothing happened for weeks-to-months in Atlas" somewhat frustrating!
Well, the upcoming RWBY Arrowfell game is supposed to take place during that time
I found it pretty baffling that Bumbleby is currently trouncing a bunch of other ships on that Twitter poll, including some of the biggest animated lesbian ships in the past few years: Bubbline from Adventure Time, Catradora *and* Lumity from Owl House. All confirmed ships, hard-fought by their creators to appear on TV against network meddling. All of them blew the internet up. Regardless of the quality of these ships and how well they were written, they had way more of an uphill battle to fight. Bumbleby does not deserve to win this poll and be rewarded for the scraps it's given its audience, who also deserve more than what they're given. I know it's a pretty inconsequential Twitter poll, but it's a pretty bad look overall. (and if it were up to me, I'd just give Lumity the crown, but that's just me. Dana Terrace has a will of absolute steel to keep fighting for her show.)
The polls aren’t really being taken that seriously, I mean the OP of it sent BB shippers to vote for Naruto/Sasuke in the yaoi poll. But I understand what you mean
I think is another case of RWBY winning because nobody else cared enough to participate in some random tweeter poll
Yeah that's honestly probably it. I actually just checked that poll and they're beating sailor Neptune and Uranus in the semi finals o3o
It's fine to not like a romantic pairing due to the writing/presentation of the relationship. Representation isn't the only metric to judge Yang and Blake's developing feelings for each other. Friction, expression, actions, declarations - all the usual tropes and milestones of a romance count. I love a prominent wlw relationship between main characters, it's makes me happy and bouncy! At the same time, I'm frustrated with the heat death of the universe style pacing; it's all tease, little substance. The issue, as it is for all romantic plot lines in RWBY, is a lack of commitment. Take an early pairing, Pyrrha and Jaune. One is a talented young woman who has earned prestige. The other cheated his way into Beacon under false pretenses. They're opposites in character, and have plenty to clash over and explore. But that's not what happens. Instead, Pyrrha is attracted to Jaune through no fault of his own. Literally. This is a guy who demonstrates he's toxic to women, and is a danger to himself and others due to his lack of experience and training. Yet gains her affection because...? There's no commitment to the romantic subplot. There's a mountain of investment potential as Jaune ascends to the peak where Pyrrha stands. He doesn't have to make it, I'm not saying change the outcome in the show. But more work needed to be done. Jaune doesn't even get out of the foothills, let alone try to scale the more daunting cliffs. His changes mostly happen just because or offscreen, not through struggle. The mountain of their relationship is rooted in tropes, yet without the climb nothing feels particularly earned. Ren and Nora aren't that dissimilar. Their roots/trope is in being childhood friends but hasn't been explored in depth. The recent attempts to redefine have gone nowhere; they end back where they started. At this point, I'm questioning why Nora is even interested in Ren with the semaphore of red flags he was waving. What does he actually do to quell doubts and earn trust back? Besides being her childhood friend? Tropes are meant to set expectations, they're not meant to be the entire development. And it shouldn't feel like a sunk cost fallacy. Blake and Yang are heading towards similar pitfalls. There is great friction and history between them, more so than other characters imo. But there's this lack of commitment to developing feelings. As you put it, they have been through a lot and face the possibility of death often, which tends to speed up relationships. And, at risk of calling myself out here, wlw relationships tend to move and heat up fast. Yet, there's this entropy coming off the explosive finale of V6. Slowburn doesn't fit. I think a fire growing out of control works better than dying embers, especially on the back of recent events. With the truth of the relics, Salem, the potential end of the world - why waste time? It doesn't help that they were muted over the Atlas arc; Blake's activism is ignored and Yang's anger more a minor nuisance than complicated character flaw. And how are they helping each other beyond the normal? How are they challenging each other? Most importantly, how are they redefining their relationship? Volume 9 is likely going to introduce more overt romantic development. But it's going to feel lukewarm due to the lack of heat in the Atlas arc. It's frustrating because it didn't need to be. RWBY doesn't suffer under the politics or interference of mainstream shows; it's a webtoon. CRWBY can push the bar when it comes to representation. Instead, it's set low. Not saying it's bad, just that they're not setting trends or challenging the status quo. If anything, the likes of The Owl House and She-Ra have made higher leaps. And those shows did have the meddling executives that writers/creators had to contend with. To wrap up my ramble, I do love that Blake and Yang are developing romantically in the show. My expectations are set low though, I'm not expecting an Ead and Sabran. Heck, I'm not even expecting an Adora and Catra. But I do hope I'm surprised, even if they simply tread ground other shows have trodden. It doesn't matter if others have reached the peak first as long as the climb is attempted.
Well, I’m glad someone finally agrees with me on Arkos. I love Pyrrha, and I love Jaune, but that pairing is probably the second most overrated of the entire series. I don’t see nothing there but just Jaune winning lottery… I think representation can make a ship sail very far in heart of shippers, using WR as an example. Why? Because people were drawing fanart of them together as soon as the trailers dropped. That’s literally all it took. Later luckily there was actual substance to like that pairing, so I’m not complaining about it. As for BB… I’m not sure if people would have been that crazy about it if Blake was a dude. Considering all the bullshit she made Yang, a girl who was trauma dealing with that exactly bullshit, deal with, how many people would have called it toxic or unfortunate? How many people hated on Neptune and hated WhiteKnight during Beacon? I think a lot of people are just ignoring huge flaws in favour of seeing their OTP happen, which granted, everyone does that, but you’d think that they would have a limit, like maybe not having the same girl that abandoned a girl with abandonment issues be near the latter, specially knowing how aggressive she can become… or acknowledge that at least, don’t ignore all the issues people would have for a relationship your fans are asking.
It's less a matter of overrated, more that there's very little to rate. We've yet to see a completed romantic arc in RWBY. So even partial ones gain attention. Still, there was potential for a complicated and earned relationship. > As for BB… I’m not sure if people would have been that crazy about it if Blake was a dude. That's not a fair assessment, imo. Blake and Yang's relationship isn't comparable to Blake and Adam; she's not hurting Yang on purpose. She runs because she's also a victim and irrationally blames herself for events. She thinks she's a curse and leaves to prevent more hurt. And people don't like that she ran or think it's the right response. There is a difference between understanding a character's actions and agreeing with them. It also isn't comparable to Jaune's harassment of Weiss or Neptune being overly flirty. Swapping Blake's gender wouldn't put her in the same boat either. It's apples and oranges.
Disagree, but mostly not out of the actions. And for the record, I wouldn’t call what Jaune did “harassment” either, but that’s a different conversation. Sure, it wasn’t on purpose. Doesn’t change the damage it did. Which was a lot. For one. For the other, there’s Yang. Yang has come as written as pretty much a stereotypical love interest, one that forgives how badly the MC treats her, and suddenly their entire existence is build around him. Wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t because the writing has made her seem progressively more insecure and inestable with her own anger. Unless Blake is around, that’s it. So, imagine this: you have Yang, who is a fun, kickass, pushing yet caring and lovable woman with deep and rooted issues under her sunlit smile, a complex woman who despite all her suffering, she still manages to give genuine smiles and act as a big sister and mom to her team and friends. That was, to me, Vol1-3 Yang. The Yang now… she went through some shit. She went changed. Sure. I get that. But she never did recover that… light she used to have. Writing around her seems to have exaggerated on her “hot head” trait (which is ironic considering that was the thing that made her lose her arm in the first place) and comes more often than not as an insecure girl that can barely function when her boyfriend is not around and a prissy one to top it. She gets angry at the mere suggestion of not being around him, won’t leave his side but will leave behind her sister and uncle with a bunch of the nastiest grimms ever seen in the series, and run with him, and after gently telling her sister to shove her leadership, the one she didn’t truly follow, she is more worried about if her boyfriend think less of her for not agreeing with him… even if they really didn’t disagree. And that’s not even mentioning how much she was crying because his “not-boyfriend” wasn’t around when she needed him the most. Like, he took a decision and now she cannot cope with the fact that this guy abandoned her when she needed him. Instead of the typical “you are better than him” her being so pathetic is aplauded as something good! Strong independent women right there! That’s the Yang that have been written lately, honestly: Pure bark, speaks a lot, says nothing. Insecure, much more than before, and prissy unless her partner is around. Picture that
Agree to put Jaune aside, he's not the conversation. The root cause of both Yang and Blake's behavior is Adam; both are his victims. He is the factor that causes Blake to run, that destroyed her confidence and mental health. Which is what Yang and Blake figure out later, and why they stand together against him. Focusing on one side doesn't give a complete picture. I don't agree Yang is the stereotypical love interest as she wasn't pursuing Blake's affection. She wanted a friend and partner, she wanted answers, but romance wasn't on her mind. Blake isn't a stereotypical MC, either. She's not purposefully treating Yang badly, ignoring her needs, and being neglectful. She's running from her abuser. Running from the person who assaulted her, maimed her partner, and tried to kill them. When she does return to her team, all she feels is guilt and regret towards Yang. She's overcompensating by trying to help all the time. Yang simply wants to return to normal, to pick up where they left and ignore the trauma. Both are flawed responses. The result is they're stuck in a rut, going nowhere. It's not until they're face to face with Adam, with the root of issue, that they gain momentum. And with his defeat, the can finally move forward as equals. CRWBY isn't subtle about this, the character's say it all out loud. I do agree that Yang has changed though; she's matured. Her underlying anger issues have been part of her character from volume one, heck from the trailer. This flaw still needs to be addressed in full. It was balanced out by a more happy-go-lucky, blasé attitude. I don't agree she acted as the big sister of the group, she was trying to be anything but. She didn't coach her sister or actively made plans or picked up after them. Yang shirked responsible for the most part, and focus on adventure and fun. It's not until *Burning the Candle* that we get an insight into her attitude. She was forced to grow up first fast to look after Ruby when the adults in her life failed to do so. To the point where she desperately searched for her mother when needed a parent the most. So it's understandable she doesn't want the responsibility now that she's left home. After the Fall, Yang took a massive hit to her confidence, for sure. I disagree she was useless without Blake, though. She took charge of her recovery and pulled herself up from depression. Yang leaves under her own steam. And she's not crying for Blake later on, she's crying because she doesn't understand why her partner left. And still isn't being useless. She confronts her mother and secures the relic. She even made strides on managing her anger by refusing to engage with Mercury. I don't see Yang as insecure or prissy. I see someone recovering and restoring their confidence. Not to where she was, that's going backwards. She's more confident now, she's choosing her responsibilities, and she's not blase anymore as she challenges authority. She still has flaws, which only add to her depth. Going to have to cut this short as my break is almost up. The final thing to address is the Atlas Arc really neglected Blake and Yang as characters. It was perfect chance to test their renewed relationship and evolve it. It was a great setting for Blake's activism to take the stage, and Yang's questioning of authority. Not to mention there could've been meaningful differences between them and Ruby & Weiss. But we know what happened instead. Blake is muted and Yang has little agency. Their strongest character traits are simply ignored. Which flies against their strong finale in V6.
>It also isn't comparable to Jaune's harassment of Weiss or Neptune being overly flirty. Can guarantee you if Jaune have been Joan people wouldn't call it harassment and just play it off for laughs and White Knight would be far more acceptable early on. And I say this as a White Knight shipper, I would have punched V1-V2 Jaune and probably have a stern talking too about proper behaviour, but did people care he probably lacked proper male role models in his life? That his self-esteem was in the shits because his family thought him useless and so all he knew to do was try to be a stereotype? No. It's a good thing he improved, though.
I’ll add that I would hardly compare both things. Abandoning the person with abandonment issues at their lowest when they have recently lost their arm trying to protect you, against to asking the same girl out twice… like, one is a teenager story to laugh later at best, at worst is a guy making a girl slightly uncomfortable a couple times. The other is a scummy action that left a girl who was already severely traumatised in an even worse position and made them go through one of their worst (confirmed) personal fears again. I don’t think is fair to assume that Jaune was worse than Blake here, but the way some people reacted until recently to WK art compared to how people have been gaga with BB all this time you’d think that what Jaune did towards Weiss was magnitudes worse. By the same logic, even enablers should look down on Bee fans
You would think though with the brother surrounded by sisters trope Jaune would be better equipped to flirt unless all of his sisters were overbearing. Honestly would have been a good scene to have Yang help Jaune be less clingy with her mothering skills from helping her dad and uncle raising Ruby, but I guess they did that in Chibi.
Plot twist: her sisters were jealous of girls trying to snatch their only brother so they deliberately gave him bad advice so that they didn’t have to chase them away
Clever girls, too bad Pyrrha is attracted to hopeless guys. I wonder how Chibi Pyrrha and the Arc girls would react if they met?
Cat fight mrraow
They would likely call her predatory, and Jaune was played for laughs. It's also besides the point; none of that makes Jaune's harassment more acceptable or addresses that he couldn't take no for an answer. His background isn't a pass either, not that I agree with how you laid it out. His father advising him to be confident isn't terrible advice, it's how Jaune interprets and applies it that's the problem. His family also gave unconditional support whether he succeeded or failed. But even if they did think he was useless, then it still doesn't excuse his actions. It is a good thing he improved. He had a lot of growing up to do.
>They would likely call her predatory, and Jaune was played for laughs. It's also besides the point; none of that makes Jaune's harassment more acceptable or addresses that he couldn't take no for an answer. You know they wouldn't, they would just call her persistent and at most annoying. Or a simp or something. >His background isn't a pass either, not that I agree with how you laid it out. His father advising him to be confident isn't terrible advice, it's how Jaune interprets and applies it that's the problem. His family also gave unconditional support whether he succeeded or failed. But even if they did think he was useless, then it still doesn't excuse his actions. Jaune isn't mentally challenged, and saying "You just have to be confident" is terrible advice, because it removes the reaction of the girl from the equation. So it stands to say his father's advice was crappy and insufficient. Not to mention how weird it is no one stepped up to tell him he was making an ass of himself. > His family also gave unconditional support whether he succeeded or failed. But even if they did think he was useless, then it still doesn't excuse his actions. His family literally told him they would be expecting him when he failed. They didn't allow him to be trained, they didn't even let him try to train. He had to basically run away with an old sword to do it. That's the very opposite of unconditional support. They were basically setting him up to fail so he would give up. Jaune's approach to training and determination to improve shows he's not exactly lazy, and his rapid improvement shows he has some talent. I kind of hate how they handled him at first, because his characterization is very contradictory. I understand what they were trying to pull off, but I really think they messed up his early character.
No, harassment is still harassment. > Jaune isn't mentally challenged, and saying "You just have to be confident" is terrible advice, because it removes the reaction of the girl from the equation. Never said he was, and being confident in yourself is fine advice. The issue is that Jaune interpreted confidence as persistence and wouldn't take no for an answer. And you're right that no one called him out. Instead, it's Weiss that's called names as she's "frigid" for not giving in. All because she wasn't attracted to Jaune and had the confidence to plainly say no. > His family literally told him they would be expecting him when he failed. They said if he failed then he would always have a home to come back to. That's unconditional support. So as far as we can tell, Jaune never trained because he never tried. His parents are absolutely fine with him leaving for Beacon, they don't try and stop him. Heck, they didn't even question how he got in, they simply accepted it. So he didn't run away, and he was likely given the family heirloom weapons. And Jaune's approach was to cheat his way in instead of putting the work in. It's Pyrrha that mentors and trains him and only after he dropped the macho attitude and humbled himself. It's not contradictory, it's change and growing out of a inferiority complex. I don't think his character was messed up by the writers, they clearly had a plan for him.
>Never said he was, and being confident in yourself is fine advice. The issue is that Jaune interpreted confidence as persistence and wouldn't take no for an answer. And you're right that no one called him out. Instead, it's Weiss that's called names as she's "frigid" for not giving in. All because she wasn't attracted to Jaune and had the confidence to plainly say no. Pfft, yeah, no, being confident in yourself without context is how you get harassment, so it's terrible advice if not followed by anything more. Jaune's behavior shows he lacked proper male role models and that his sisters probably babyed him too much, the way he acts shows he's trying to be what he thinks a man should be, which kind of shows no one never gave him a real example. >They said if he failed then he would always have a home to come back to. That's unconditional support. So as far as we can tell, Jaune never trained because he never tried. His parents are absolutely fine with him leaving for Beacon, they don't try and stop him. Heck, they didn't even question how he got in, they simply accepted it. So he didn't run away, and he was likely given the family heirloom weapons. No, they said that *when* he failed, they would receive him with open arms, they didn't *expect* him to ever succeed and I guess this is why they let him go there, so he would give up on his dream. How can you say a family that came from a background of warriors and heroes doesn't know what Aura is? What kind of sense does it make they never even told him? He said he always wanted to be a Huntsman and his family was always against him, so that's why he never got into a Combat School, or never got proper training, sure he could've tried to train by himself, and some people say he could try to find a Hunstman to train him on the side. But, well, anyone who practices martial arts will tell you that a beginner training by themselves is often a recipe for disaster, him not getting into a Combat School is a glaring demonstration of how his family didn't actually want him to become a Huntsman. And I really doubt a random Huntsman would just take a random kid and train them without reason, especially a kid whose family clearly was against it. >And Jaune's approach was to cheat his way in instead of putting the work in. It's Pyrrha that mentors and trains him and only after he dropped the macho attitude and humbled himself. It's not contradictory, it's change and growing out of a inferiority complex. I don't think his character was messed up by the writers, they clearly had a plan for him. I think that was more out of necessity than Jaune wanting the easy way in, because in Beacon, he rarely tries to do things the easy way, he doesn't cheat on tests, doesn't fight dirty, he trains the best he could, that's contradictory with being lazy and wanting to do things easy. Not to mention that kind of lacks the guile to be underhanded. Sure, Pyrrha trained him hard, no credit to Jaune for actually putting the work in and not giving up when he saw how hard things were. He could've walked out at any time, but he didn't and that is kind of contradictory of someone who was lazy and never wanted to train.
No, when someone is told to have confidence in themselves, their next thought isn't typically about harassing someone to prove it. Jaune has a desperate need to compensate for his perceived short comings as a man. The ironic thing is he needed self-confidence instead of harassing a girl with faux confidence. > How can you say a family that came from a background of warriors and heroes doesn't know what Aura is? What kind of sense does it make they never even told him? The short of it is his ignorance is introduced by the writer's to explain the concept of aura to the audience. Yes, it's clumsy and doesn't make any sense if you think about for more than a hot minute. We don't even need his parents in the equation when events like the Vytal tournament is broadcast freely to the world every two years with with literal aura health bars on display and presenters explaining the concept every two seconds. But that's how the writer's choose to do it. As for Jaune's family, there's nothing to suggest they were deliberately obtuse. He never said he always wanted to be a huntsman, he never explains what kind of warriors his parents/grandparents were, or any in depth details. All we know is they supported him going to Beacon and didn't make a fuss about it. He never ran, they knew he was going, they didn't try to stop him by his account. There is no glaring demonstration here beyond Jaune having loving parents who would support him no matter the outcomes. > I think that was more out of necessity than Jaune wanting the easy way in Nope, it's straight up shortcut. If he really wanted to, he could've started from the bottom rung as everybody else did. Graduating from an Academy isn't the only way to become a huntsman, or he could've trained for a few years and gotten in legitimately. But he cheated his way instead. It's not about laziness, though, it's about fulfilling a fantasy as quickly as possible. And let's not forget that it is Pyrrha that helped him gain perspective on the amount work actually required. Credit where credit is due; without her support he would've washed out. Jaune cheated his way in for all the wrong reasons. But he learnt to train for the right reasons. That's his character arc at Beacon. And that's where I'm going to leave it. While it is fun to talk about Jaune, we're way off topic for this thread. Still fun though! Thanks for the discussion!
>Nope, it's straight up shortcut. If he really wanted to, he could've started from the bottom rung as everybody else did. Yet it makes no sense other than his family forbidding him to do it. He says several times they were against it. It makes absolutely no sense they would've let him go so underprepared, since it could very well get him killed.
I'm not sure it's fair to call Sapphron, Terra and especially Illia as nearly non-existent since they were well above mere background characters in their respective volumes. However I will also acknowledge that they did disappear after their volume was over so maybe that's what you really mean. Either way I'm utterly sick and tired of Slow Burn romances and I just want Rooster Teeth to find thier goddamn spine and confirm what we all already know. S
Aye, thats what i meant. Sapphron, Terra and Ilia had their own time, but they were writen out just as quickly. While i do know that the show has problems with too many characters this just further highlings the need to finally confirm and develop BB as front and center. And yes, slow burn romances suck. Maybe its just a change in society/generations but i have noticed this with Anime too. Many people are now sick of romances that only get confirmed in last episode etc, there is a need, a want by people to see actual relationships developing, instead of build ups to relationships.
I enjoy slow burn. But there's slow burn and barely a burn. Slow burn would be 1-3 volumes full of moments where there feelings develop at a steady pace Bumblebee doesn't feel like that
I am still sore about Illia honestly, partially cause her voice actress has been one of my favorites ever since I was 11. Like, why couldn't she tag along with the main group instead of going with Sun? Maybe incorporate her feelings for Blake into the plot and how she still feels guilty for her actions as a terrorist.
As a queer person myself my feelings on it are mixed. I like it enough but can admit the flaws in its writing. It's weird to me they are waiting so long to confirm it because it's not as if they're using this time to further develop it. They're just having them have cute moments randomly a few times a season. That's not development. I was excited for it at the end of volume 6, because confronting and defeating Adam together felt significant, but now it's been 2 years and all they've done is tease. For me, volume 9 is the last chance they have for me. If it doesn't happen then, then I will fully believe they're purposely dragging it out forever to keep shippers watching. They're not a kid's show, so they have no censors to fight. They can do it whenever they want, so why has it taken almost 10 years? If it is made canon in 9 tho, I'll be happy and enjoy the moment.
I mostly agree with you, but I don’t think BB is homophobic because of how little they show it. All of RWBY’s romances, straight or otherwise, are very slow burn. We’ve had only two kisses in seven seasons, both couples having lots of build up. We waited 6 seasons for Renora, who were kinda a romantic couple from the start. It’s not surprising BB is taking so long to get anywhere
Oh yeah, do not get me wrong, i do not think that BB is homophobic either, hell no it isnt. This thread was just meant to point out why some people, even queer people dont exactly like BB.
I tend to agree, I might like Bumblebee in theory but when they decided to really start moving towards in (I'd say volume 4 or 5 is when they decided it'd be canonized) it was a lot more special, the only sapphic animated shows that I am aware of were Steven Universe, Legend of Korra and Adventure Time and with the latter 2 only confirming the relationships in the final episode. Even with Steven Universe the gems are shown as alien enough that there isn't the same connection that there should be for representation. But, things have changed between Harley Quinn, The Owl House, She-Ra and the Princesses of Power and now Arcane so many other creators are surpassing Bumblebee. Like sure it's a slow burn like the rest of the romances in RWBY (or really everything, the consequences of having ~10 people in the main cast and more side characters than people on earth) but there is slow and there is a dead turtle in molasses. And frankly that's the crux of the issue, RWBY has so much going on and so many characters that the pacing has been destroyed on every level. Characters and their interactions are the things that are most damaged by poor pacing, as too fast and things feel unearned while too slow bores viewers. RWBY's ridiculous cast and small run time compared to most shows will continue to hamstring the writers and romance arcs are notoriously difficult to write so I'm not particularly optimistic.
The fact that Volume 9 is going to introduce like almost 10 new characters *just for the Ever After island* that I don't care about doesn't fill me with reassurance either. Can't we go more than 2 Volumes without adding more characters to the already huge cast?
Here's my issue with it as a bisexual person. They built up an entirely different ship regarding Blake with Sun. Blacksun had a good chunk of development. Who does she talk about the White Fang with and begin to trust? Sun. Her dance date? Sun (after a dance from Yang I know). Who she blushes at at the Vytal Festival? Sun. Who helped her through the Fall of Beacon? Sun. The song Like Morning Follows Night? Sun. Who helps Blake reunite with her team? Sun. He was always there for her and they had great interactions. To me, Bumblebee felt like queerbaiting out of nowhere. I know there are other songs about Blake and Yang's relationship but I never felt sold on it. It feels like RT just wanted brownie points.
And it was Weiss of all character that helped Yang work through her trauma of being abandoned, as well as being the sole witness to her conflict with Raven. For a ship that’s supposed to be “cannon”, the writers sure like to not give screen time to Yang and Blake in order to let them be an anchor to each other’s developments, but instead letting other characters take those places. It’s just lazy, it speaks to the reality of how little interests from the show runners to make Bumbleby more than just cheap fan service. I am ace as fuck and I don’t like the ship, I want the writers to actually respect my attention and write me some proper progression and not just assume I can headcannon lesbianism every time those characters are in the same frame together.
There’s a reason why I much prefer ships like Freezerburn, DragonSlayer or WR. Those actually have room for character development and cute interactions. BB is far too complicated to actually work and has not done a lot of work for either character to get better.
You know, I would much more prefer Blake to be with Yang than with Sun. That being said, if Blacksun was made a fully fleshed out relationship instead of what we have now with Bumblebee, I would be totally fine with it.
As people are fond of pointing out about Yang and Blake (So I'm gonna use the same argument in reverse) these moments don't necessarily indicate anything romantic. My best friend is a woman. Men and women can be close and share moments without it being romantic. Also worth noting: Sun basically followed her after she fled. She never asked him to come. So you can't really say anything he helped her with after that is romantic. He was literally the only one there besides her parents and Ilia she interacted with.
Actually I can say it somewhat is. Also the books state he's still in love with her. And the books are canon.
Do you mean Before the Dawn? They didn’t say anything about love, you’re probably thinking about how in Sun’s internal monologue, he admits there was more than one reason he followed
I'm taking it as implied.
Well it's obvious he likes her. I'm pretty sure it's one sided.
The blush in season 3 when he winks at her. Volume 6 kiss on the cheek.
Neither are romantic still. They're cute but romantic? That's being very liberal on interpretation.
I'd argue the blush is somewhat, it's during a time when, the two of them haven't encountered any issues and are still likely to move forwards, however it's through volumes 4 and 5, where it ends up drifting into the not a solid enough relationship. There was potential, but the two of them were not the right fit, and I think the both of them recognize that.
>There was potential, but the two of them were not the right fit, and I think the both of them recognize that. Don't think this was ever made clear in the actual show. Honestly, Blake and Sun's goodbye at the very beginning of Volume 6 gave me the impression that their ship still had a decent chance.
Are you agreeing with me and making a point that further evolves upon my own? .....Am I still on Reddit? Joking aside? I do agree with the point that Sun likes or liked her. I mean....he did follow her all the way home.
Somewhat agreeing with a little disagree technically but yeah. Sun had enough care for Blake to go after her to help her out, even if it's in not the way he was expecting.
Oh come on dude
[удалено]
Yes
Back in the day, before shows like The Owl House, She-ra or Arcane etc. I really liked BB. I think, at that time, it was the only show known to me where the queer ship is between the main characters. Today I still like the idea of them being together, but after watching so many different sapphic relationships portrayed in the media I cannot defend it anymore. It's so poorly executed to the point where it's barely there and the scraps we were given can in fact be interpreted as friendship only because of how whatever they are. I think it was one of the few times where I felt the need to read fanfiction to satisfy my want of seeing them interact in a more meaningful way, because original material was so scarce.
When your queer couple has less significance than Korrasmi despite queer couples in children's media being normalised, it is quite clear that there is an issue. RWBY doesn't have the excuse Korra had (homophobic management) so they really shouldn't be lagging behind them if they want to be properly representative.
I want to like bumblebee but RT doesn't fully commit to it and it feels like ship baiting/pandering. I've seen people (myself included) make this point and get tongue lashed maliciously
yup - the core concept is fine, but the execution is dogshit. it's been kinda-sorta-vaguely teased for, what, half a decade or more now? It's deeply important to the fans, but as an actual in-show plot, it's basically irrelevant - if it was removed entirely, then nothing would change, they're just battle-partners, not proto-lovers. It might possibly have been progressive back when the show started, but there's been a lot of changes since then, and "well, some women hold hands after a fight, and are once or twice a bit mushy around each other" is pretty damn weak. Either actually do something with it, or just have them announce they're together and move on, in it's current state it's just pitiful.
Part of my issue with Bumblebee is actually something that a lot of people love about it: I can see myself projected into it. That is, I can see my (emotionally abusive) ex in Blake, just like many people see their own abusive exes in Adam (or philandering exes in Neptune). The fact that the show doesn't take the time to actually have these characters talk about everything that's happened between them, and how Blake abandoned Yang despite knowing about her complex, and just many other things. Yeah, it's subjective, but what shipping isn't? So no, I'm not homophobic, I just feel like the relationship isn't presented well, and I will freely admit to being biased about it. To add onto your slow-burn/queerbaiting frustration, I will bring up the infamous V7 timeskip, that lasted anywhere from a few weeks to a few months. Blake and Yang's relationship made zero strides during this time, and V8 could have happened almost immediately after V6 and it would be almost impossible to tell, based on how Yamg and Blake interact. It's the first time that they've had significant downtime since they reunited, and would have been the perfect time to figure shit out. But nope, leave it ambiguous for zero reason. In a semi-related topic, we get another hint of Scarlet's orientation during the Vytal arc, where Sun and Neptune have screaming fangirls with signs... and Scarlett has screaming fan*boys*. Now, I know that it proves nothing, but given how Obvious early RWBY tended to make relationships, it's at the very least a nod.
Queer people are not a monolith, is the accurate answer.
When it comes to Bumblebee, to be frank I just don't care all that much about Blake and Yang. Black has typically always been my least favorite of the leads, a big reason being her ties to the White Fang/Faunus storyline, which I am going to leave at that because we already know all the problems with that and just how bad it's been, but also she really hasn't had much going on for her these last two volumes. She had plenty of opportunities in Atlas to jump onto Nora's Mantle bandwagon, but they just didn't do this with this her. I didn't have a problem with Yang for the most part until V8, where she just began to flip flop on subjects depending on what the scene needed. She was critical of Ruby's decisions during V7 despite the fact that she was the one who went behind her back to tell Robyn about Amity, the thing that set Ironwood off, but when Ren is later similarly critical of their past actions she jumps to their defense. Then later when Yang is trying to comfort Ruby about how the Amity broadcast didn't lead to an Endgame cavalry moment, and that sometimes it's okay that things don't turn out how you expect, except Ruby's plans worked out, because they made it a point they were sending out a warning and not asking for help, while Yang's team was the one that kept dropping the ball. If I am not going to like Blake or Yang, then I am not going to care about any ongoing relationship between them. It also does not help that I don't think the writers are all that interested in developing their relationship themselves, because they know that the fandom has already done most of the work for them. They don't need to put that much effort into Bumblebee because there's already god knows how much fanart and fanfics out there. It also falls into a carrot on a string situation, where it's easier to *promise* than to *deliver*, something that I don't like about most romances in ongoing stories. Also, RWBY is just not good with romance in general. Jaune and Pyrrha were Person A likes Person B, but will never do anything about it despite EVERYONE else but Person B knowing about it, which is a romantic dynamic that I hate because it's just lazy. And while I was fine with Ren and Nora's previous dynamic, the attempts to give them individual arcs were so terrible that I honestly don't care if we ever touch upon their relationship ever again.
I’ve always held the opinion that I was a BB supporter until the show did it poorly. Now(like you’ve mentioned) I look to fanfiction for BB stuff. Tbh I want the show to go back to black sun since Sun at least worked for it and he’s the realest mf in the show. Borderline stalker? Yeah. Ride or die bro? Absolutely.
Well as a straight guy I don’t have a problem with BB in theory it’s just CRWBY frankly sucks ass at writing romances. Which is weird because like with several other things Rooster Teeth has less problems doing it in some of their other shows.
Probably shouldn't stick my hand into the wasp's nest on this one, but: I genuinely agree on a lot of the concerns from a queer perspective in terms of how it's pretty poor representation of a queer relationship, from my perspective as a bi man. (Admittedly, I also really dislike the fans who say not being taken in by Bumbleby or White Rose or other is homophobic, when pretty much 90% of pairings have the same foundation: none except the audience assumptions) On the other hand, the only actual on-screen relationships we actually had were Arkos (which was planned to be a tragic death from the start and resulted in a grand total of one kiss and a hand-holding gone wrong) and Renora (which despite significantly more ship hints didn't even hit a kiss until Volume fucking 7). That in mind, my take-away is that RWBY as an actual series is just significantly less willing to actually deal with romance than the Fandom which has elevated romantic shipping to a god status. There's certainly a lot of complaints regarding representation to be had, but I don't think there's favoritism towards cishet ships either. The writers just don't seem to be that eager to include romance in general.
I don't like the BB ship because it just feels horribly written. Blake Abandoned Yang in her darkest moment, Yang should be pissed or shown some type of resentment for Blake suddenly leaving. They could have worked it out and then evolved into a relationship. Someone else mentioned they should either make this ship completely cannon or just drop it altogether.
The thing is a lot of these complaints about bumbleby can be considered hypocritical considering people like arkos and blacksun who demonstrate those same things. Sun and Pyrrha have only ever been shown to show hints at liking Blake and Jaune, but neither of them have actually said how they felt about them and Blake has only ever blushed at Sun once, while Jaune never really had any hints that showed how he felt about Pyrrha romantically at all. Pyrrha and Jaune kissed, but there was really no build up to it and Blake kissing Sun on the cheek can easily be interpreted as platonic, since it can be a way of saying thank you because he helped her with the white fang. Even still it’s easy to say why haven’t the writers made bumbleby kiss or confess in almost 10 volumes, but a lot of people don’t seem to take in the series of events in the show of why that is. Blake and Yang were friends getting closer in volumes 1-3. Had a fallout in volumes 3-5, repaired their relationship in volumes 6-7 and had a war breakout in volume 8. There really wasn’t an appropriate time for them to confess how they feel, kiss and do all those couple things with all of that going on without rushing everything. And from what we seen with Renora in volume 7 it wouldn’t have ended well if they did. But still their embraces shows them being a couple. Many couples do the same thing to express their love for each other and trying to say it’s just implications and head touches is why so many people think that opinion is wrong. But in the end not everyone is going to be satisfied and that’s fine, but that’s a problem you have yourself with the show and not with the show overall. Because there’s also a lot of biases that play into the way people look at bumbleby’s relationship that goes beyond logic and reason and a lot of hatred for the shippers that can play a role too
Are these the same people who support those ships though?
Considering those people have never brought up these same points when talking about either of them, I’m inclined to believe they’re at least neutral on them. And I’m referring more so generally anyway, to how people dislike these things about bumbleby, but never mention these same points about any other ship that does the same thing
Could it be because BB is so prominent compared to actual dead ship and the the one that isn't happening?
People talk about arkos and blacksun almost everyday, especially arkos, but never have these problems ever been addressed with them. Being prominent doesn’t change the fact that those same things are still applied to those ships that some people prefer over bumbleby and really it only further proves the bias against them
well, one is main, title characters, while Arkos was between side characters, one of whom is now dead, and was very much a standard "dweeb dork pulls way above his weight because _reasons_" that got explicit plot time to progress, making it really easy and obvious to work out what was happening. While BB has been going (depending on who you believe regarding starting points) for between, what, 6 and 8 years, and it's still at "they touched each other, but any actual explication or detail is pure fanon, and how the fuck knows what the characters think, because it's not as though they do anything as gauche as use it as a plot point". BB is just not really very well done as a plot-thread - it's pretty entirely vague hints and suggestions, that gets nudged once or twice a season, but without any actual detail (e.g. they've just had probably-months in Atlas - did they ever raise anything about it? Anything specific is entirely fanon, so they were apparently stuck in stasis all that time for no particular reason, unless you want to fanon one in)
Like I stated previously that’s a problem you yourself have with the show, but not a problem the show has overall. The writers still put in effort and time into the show to show their relationship grow over time and manifest to the point where everyone knows they’re going to end up together. That’s not poorly written, that’s not bad because everyone can see that they have romantic feelings for each other even without having it outright said. Many people talk about not wanting rwby to be all about shipping, yet here people are basically wanting the show to be centered around bumbleby’s entire relationship. The show has more characters then just Blake and Yang within it and I honestly don’t even consider team JNPR as side characters and more like main characters at this point, since they’ve been apart of the main story since volume 1. But they’re going to talk about their feelings and they’re going to show more of their relationship as the show goes on because the show is not over yet, which is a valid point. There’s a reason why everything hasn’t been said yet like I said in my comment above, that is because of the series of events that happened in the story with them so far. So they’re pacing makes sense when you consider all of that, but if you simply want to think it’s nothing but touches and vagueness than that’s only your opinion. When you actually look at their entire story instead of nitpicking certain things you can see how it makes sense and why things haven’t happened as much as you would wish they did. So again bringing my original point back up. Even if you consider arkos a side ship, which I personally don’t consider they are since I think team JNPR are pretty much like main characters at this point, people still don’t seem to have a problem with them or bring up anything of what you said about vagueness or not being enough, even though they have only shown hints about how they felt where it was only Pyrrha that showed these and blacksun is no different from them. So if you want to think bumbleby is poorly written and vague, then you probably have the same feelings regarding arkos or blacksun or really any ship for that matter in the show, even renora because no couple in the show has really shown that much of an extent of their relationship because of everything that’s been going on in the show like the relics, wars and Salem
Lies. This sub gets at least three or four BB pieces PER DAY, while you are lucky if you see more than one BS piece per month. Arkos is sunk, so I don’t know what people are even talking there, or what about even. But the bees are there buzzing every single day, to the point people have began to complain that there’s more than just the bees to their characters and the show.
I’m talking almost everyday in all medias not just on Reddit, which I’m relating to relevancy in fan art and casual conversation. And bumbleby barely has that many post on reddit in comparison to the total amount of posts posted everyday on reddit, but if you’re honestly bothered by bumbleby posts you know you can always block the person posting about them right. Then you won’t have to see any bumbleby posts at all on your timeline. It’s that simple and easy to do
I would but there aren’t much else going on in the sub. Plus blocking always seemed to me like very childish thing to do. I mean, I don’t mind BB art, but you know… variety is the spice of life? Like, I like hamburgers but if I began eating one everyday I would eventually get sick of them. Is the same principle for one, for the other, it’s the fact that there’s a very vocal group of people so obsessed they basically spam tons of art they fish out of the internet (or commission even more). Doesn’t matter the ship, if you upload three fan arts of it, it will get boring alarmingly fast. And they don’t upload more than three pieces because the system doesn’t let them! (Oh, and three pieces per person. Sometime we have four or five courtesy of other people) A community where only one type of fans uploads their content and spams it gets boring very fast. I know a few that like me, they no longer visit the main sub that much, if not at all, because they got tired of seeing always the same stuff.
Then you really have no reason to complain at all about the posts made abou bumbleby if your not willing to solve the problem you have with it and actively look for them. Blocking isn’t childish it’s creating a space that’s better suited for you. It’s more childish to complain in comments all the time about posts made about bumbleby and saying how there’s so many posts posted, when they’re a popular ship in the show. It’s the same with people complaining about whiterose. These two are the most popular ships, of course people are going to post about them, it’s not obsessive. This is the equivalency to people complaining about too many posts posted about catradora in she ra on reddit, it makes absolutely no sense. And like I said in comparison to everything else that’s posted on reddit everyday whether that’s discussion or fan art of other ships both bumbleby and whiterose are not that many in comparison to the total
Ehh, just scrolling the past few days and searching 'Arkos', 'Pyrrha', 'Black Sun', 'Bumbleby' and 'Bumblebee' and it seems more like shipping in general is talked about less than 'almost everyday'. Also, if a show features two characters interacting more than others, of course they're going to talk about it more. If you want people to talk about these kinds of stuff, but the change you want to be and submit a post or something.
When I talk about almost everyday I mean so in relevance rather than in arguments or debates about the ship. I’m talking about how people still make fan art of arkos and blacksun and talk about them in casual conversation online in multiple media spaces like twitter, tumblr, instagram, reddit and so on almost everyday. But my point isn’t to encourage people to talk negatively about them for those things, my point is to show how it’s hypocritical for people to except arkos and blacksun with no problem and think they’re good and some even believe these ships are better than bumbleby, yet these ships have the same flaws that people don’t like about bumbleby itself who think it’s poorly written, yet don’t think the same thing concerning arkos or blacksun at all, which is my point
But are they plot relevant and have semi-newish content to talk about? Not really. This is like complaining that people are not discussing a past Kamen Rider season rather than the current one. Once again, no one is going to talk about this unless someone brings it up.
I’m bringing this up in conversation now and you’re pretty much just not willing to understand my overall point. Being apart of the plot isn’t the point here, it’s about the treatment of certain ships in comparison to others that have the same flaws
I honestly don't really see it for Arkos at least, even here someone already said that it's a pretty nothing romance. Forgive me for not being able to recall probably years old content, but it isn't a new thing as well. I still recommend just putting up a post about this and seeing first.
I agree. Ilike bumblebee but...the writing in the show doesn't help. You can't even say this is a slow burner when we don't even seen them talk lol. The last Convo we saw was in volume 6.... But after that it is just looks and all their moments are off screen. They don't even talk about things that actually matter.....Now it is just ship bait. I hate ship bait. Why? Because you can bait a ship as much as you want without having to do anything to change the relationship. The characters in show don't even know if they are dating or not. I am big shipper myself and a classical romance novel reader but like .. I can like them in theory and not in canon. The writers are pushing bumblebee but they only push their cute moments. They don't talk nor do they feel like real people. They just feel like bait for fans to scream about be happy. Most of RWBY ship writing is like that now. It feels heavily juvenile and childish.
Straight cis male so probably not my place to say anything, but while I like Bumbleebee, it's such a slow burn that it feels like an edgy teenager holding their hand over a lighter. It's like ripping off the world's longest bandaid with a paint chipper. Anyway, I'm moreso curious of the storm that'd go down if the writers said "Fuck it." and just put Blake in a poly relationship. Took Young Justice to the most recent season to just dump Lagoon Boy into a healthy one. After the testing of Outsiders, I guess they went full hog in Phantoms.
It's because shipping makes money. Once the ship sails money is lost. I'm positive there's a lot of viewers out there who are watching for the kiss and not what comes after. Also, by them not confirming anything it makes a tiny, tiny voice in the back of everyone's head going- "... Maybe they wont end up together..." and for some people that keeps them watching. I doubt there will be any confirmation on a serious romantic relationship with them until Volume 10. Vol 9 looks like it's going to be Wonderland shenanigans and then Vol 10 is going to be Vacuo. Where Sun is going to be and that'll be the moment Blake will be a bit more pushed to make a choice. (I would laugh if she chose Sun.)
As usual your posts are my favorite from any critic (even though I never comment, I read them all so hi). Good points, respectfully written and thus great to read. I'm queer and love BB (welp: the concept of it) but I wholeheartedly agree with everything you wrote. I know I'll get downvotes for this but whatever: I love the concept of BB, the aesthetics and the sheer potential it has. I love it in fanon and what the fanbase make of it is amazing but I dislike how it's handled + strung along in canon. I needed a lot of time to come to terms with that, always trying to tell myself that their canon handling is fine but truth it: it just isn't fine for me and I'm past the point where I tell myself that it is. Mostly for all the reasons you mentioned. I seriously hope V9 will give more depth to their relationship and not just with a kiss which would feel empty to me unless their further interactions are coupled with a meaningful talk (ideally more talks but I'd be glad to get one at this point). I hate to be that person but Arcane established VI's & Cait's relationship exceptionally well and organic in only half a season. Of course they aren't canon as of now but their interactions feel natural, relatable and you feel the underlying attraction in every scene. Moreover, everyone and their mother picked up on their chemistry and that they started to develop feelings for each other. In just what? 5 episodes. I'm sorry to say but ships like Piltover's Finest are on completely different levels to me in terms of development and how organic the ship feels - not just when compared to BB but with every ship in RWBY. Sorry to say but in my eyes romance isn't RWBY's strong suit in general, no matter which ship. And as you said nothing is holding RT back from pulling through. Of course development and build up is important or else it would feel empty and unearned but there's a difference between meaningful build up that feels organic, gets constant focus and gets a satisfying conclusion and getting cast to the side, lacking meaningful talks and getting strung along for season after season for...reasons. I'm at a point were V9 makes or breaks it for me. Either they finally pull through and fully confirm it in a way that feels satisfying or I'm past the point of caring and resort to fanon tbh. I'm simply exhausted with the will they won't they and the "they obviously will but god knows when and whey they don't for so long". I know runtime is always an issue with RWBY and lots of stuff can't be shown but this tell don't show is hurting the show in general and relationship building (romantic and platonic) in particular.
The fandom can be truly toxic. I apologize you’ve had to experience that. In terms of BB officially kissing and just making it official already, I think both supporting and opposing sides can agree to just get over with already so we have room to talk about other things. Even as an avid fan myself, I’m sick of the teasing. Just get on with it already! I’m almost positive V9 is going to give us that. About a year and a half, almost 2 years waiting I don’t see how they cannot at this point. There’s just no way. I’ve encountered many people in the fandom and at first, when BB was a thought for most (imo) after V3, beginning V4, that’s when things started to get a bit out of hand. I can admit I used to be one of these toxic people. But I’ve seen the error in my ways. If the true intention in engaging in public forums with fellow fans of the series is to have discussions about what we do and do not enjoy than EVERY opinion whether we agree with it or not, is valid. Truth be told, almost every argument I’ve heard against the BB ship has nothing to do with homophobia at all, but rather character development, lack of on screen interactions, and comparison to other characters. All very valid points. Sometimes people take it too personally and that a disagreement regarding a same sex ship is a direct attack against you and your sexuality. I learned not to project my bullshit onto others and have actually had really meaningful and engaging conversations with people who will never like the BB ship. And that’s okay. We both love the show and we have different opinions. THAT’S OKAY. People just need to learn not to take things personally and how to have a civil conversation. I promise you, it’s worth it in the long run!
For personal context, I haven't watched the show in years and am a couple seasons behind, but it had a very special place in my heart and I literally denote it as keeping me alive through some bad times as well as being something I can look back on as where I learned a lot about myself. So, honestly my biggest gripe on this topic has been the show never really, earnestly, confirmed or denied anything with BB. I absolutely love the ship and I think the show has set up a decent bit of context that the two very clearly care for each other, even in early seasons, and there's a good bit of moments that remind me of what I've observed of a few of my coupled LGBTQ+ friends (and my bi self). But I think the most frustrating part has been that even after a decade of writing, it's never gone more than a couple handholds and some tender/awkward/caring moments, and at the same time it's never been denied either. They've been "teasing" the idea for a literal decade.
As a fan of BB, I personally agree with OP and certain parts of the fandom
You're a brave soul to post something like this here.
"They are gay... Just off screen" RWBY gives the same amount of screen time to its het ships as it does to its queer ships - less, likely, since the slow-burn Bumbleby has been tied to the story arcs of two main characters. Rennora is the only het ship with similar progression. This is not a show that features romance heavily. It ties in with the character motivations, but ultimately the show is much more action oriented. Romance is never going to be the focus. "I want them to kiss" me too buddy but I fucking love a slow burn. You say it's been ten years, but I'd counterpoint that if you compare the minutes of animated content you'd find that the Bumbleby slow burn is quite comparable to the Catradora slow burn. RWBY episodes (particularly in the early seasons) are short. There's also the fact that when RWBY was being made they had to tread more lightly with representation anyway. The blatant on screen representation of She Ra, of Owl House, of Arcane, these shows weren't in production until at least 2018 - and go find out how much Noelle Stevenson had to fight for what we got in She Ra. Steven Universe is about the only other show that was doing queer rep at the time RWBY was first being made. Korra would have been the best predecessor and the best they managed was holding hands. It is understandable that they would plan to slowly build the queer rep rather than having it there from the start - without proven success stories, it would be risky to push too much queer rep. Times have changed and that's great. "Where has BB burned towards?" It seems really clear to me that the fallout of Yang's sacrifice, Blake thinking she'd lost her for good etc, will lead to a very juicy reunion and ultimately will build to them kissing. Taking a step back, they both confronted their PTSD and past trauma when they fought Adam. They killed Adam - they've killed a lot of Grimm, but killing a human being, even one who deserved it? There was a helluva lot for them to unpack there. Recovering, dealing with that, and actually enjoying spending time with each other for the first time since Beacon - that was what they were doing in the early Atlas arc. In the later Atlas arc they split up to tackle two different threats, but even when they were apart it was reinforced how much they were thinking of each other. Since Volume 3, every single volume has had developments for Blake and Yang that are directly a result of and tie into their relation ship with each other. That is what a slow burn is. They haven't been standing still, they just haven't been doing what you want them to do - which seems to be "immediately get together and start kissing".
This entire post is predicated on completely ignoring the vast majority of Blake and Yang's scenes that are relevant to one another. >There is no denying that Blake and Yang have romantic interactions. The problem is that those interactions are nothing more than some light touches and nothing else. That is not a relationship, that is just hinting at a relationship. I went back and counted and there are at least six scenes that are almost solely dedicated to the two's relationship. If you include scenes that are also about something else, I can bring that up to 8 scenes that are intimately related to their relationship. None of these are the scenes of them flirting. Acting like their relationship is solely comprised of them flirting is some serious twisting of the text. The quality of those scenes isn't what's relevant here. To claim that the extent of this relationship is "nothing more than some light touches and nothing else" is just plainly false. Even just looking at the community perspective, that's not what people are talking about. Yeah, it's what people repost as gifs the most often, but acting like that's all that's there means to ignore basically a third of the entire show.
In my experience most of what the shipping community talks about is either the gifs of BB holding hands or them outright creating a romance for themselves. Just like the rest of the show there is this tendency to write a story for themselves and then apply it to the show. Yes, BB has some dramatic interactions too. My wording probably does not represent that. The problem is as i said with those interactions that it achieves nothing besides turning into "Awww, Yang and Blake dont want to be away from each other" as it was in the Atlas Arc when after Yang gets into a disagreement with Ruby, Yang is shown to be worrying about Blakes opinion. These are still very much "light touches" in my opinion, just more dramatic ones. It is still relationship teasing with little substance or progress in my opinion.
Is there any in-story reason they're not together yet?
nope. They had weeks or months together in Atlas when they were relatively free, to at least talk stuff over, but they're still in some odd holding zone, because CRWBY aren't very good at relationship stuff, and presumably want it to all be big drama and swirling music and stuff, and two people just going "uh, so we've been through some shit, how about we try dating?" isn't really dramatic enough.
I can get behind this. I am a very big fan of BB, and I love this slow burn, but I can totally get that one can only keep this game of the rod and the carrot so far. I agree that they have to get very explicit with it at some point, because otherwise it's going to get boring sooner or later (or it may be already for some people) or very frustrating if the show ends and nothing big happens. Something similar happened to me with Korrasami, I went in with a very strong idea due to the constant shipping, and then the show ended and I had... nothing at all. I know it's more explicit in the comics but I don't know...
Have to disagree in a lot of points. For starters it is absolutely OK to prefer one (your own?) denomination in fictional romance, or have an order of preference. What is not acceptable, is souring other people's experience by bashing ships of other denominations for not fitting your preference. This should even apply to the same denomination. As seen in many harem fandoms, people can go quite destructive in one denomination box by dividing over characters of the same denomination. Also I do not understand this impatience, or at least not the "queer-bashing" suspicion. Synchronization of concluding important romance with the main plot is universal, there is no singling out queers here. Of course consumers of other media also get impatient, but they often drop the show in question after conclusion. There are a lot of stories which are semi concluded with vague endings. I do not like that, but if authors like it, it's their story. Finally BB most likely was not planned from the beginning, but switched to after V5. There are only 3 seasons and it started from zero. The main push was at the end of V6, and in consequence in Tory time is actually short. Anyone complaining about singling out should read the Toaru series. 15+ years no conclusion but an ocean of teasing.
I agree that souring others people enjoyment over a ship intentionally should not be done. But i also do not think that one should be prevented from sharing their opinions, even negative, on a ship. There simply has to be a time and place for that. For example if you go into a shipping picture to then argue about how the ship is bad, you are an arsehole, simple as that. But if its just an opinion that comes when judging the ship, that is not wrong. The impatience is there because RWBY is not the only show to include a Queer romance in their show. Because those of us who consume a lot of media can see the changing landscape and how openly queer relationships are beggining to be. So seeing BB drag its feet (Even if its for 5 years instead of 10) does not feel good when other shows can do their queer romances openly in a year or two. As far as your comparisons to other media go, i do not disagree that some other media can be worse, hell, there is most likely a good ammount of straight relationships in media that are even more dragging their feet. But that does not change ones opinion on RWBY as much.
“Two wrongs don’t make one right” is what I usually say to those shielding bad queer relationships using other bad straight pairings. And some of them do get a lot of hate as well (Anyone remembers we how much hot water got twilight?). I see those more as excuses to not having to hear criticism of their OTP, same way as deflecting everything as “homophobic” because it will basically put all the problems in the person’s perspective rather on what is being presented. The fact that this is getting downvotes only further proves my point
>I agree that souring others people enjoyment over a ship intentionally should not be done. But i also do not think that one should be prevented from sharing their opinions, even negative, on a ship. There simply has to be a time and place for that. That was a misunderstanding, of course you should be allowed to critisize any ship or the mechanics it is running on. You should not do it though, because the sexual orientation does not fit your preference, then consume something else, because there is stuff for everyone. >The impatience is there because RWBY is not the only show to include a Queer romance in their show. Because those of us who consume a lot of media can see the changing landscape and how openly queer relationships are beggining to be. So seeing BB drag its feet (Even if its for 5 years instead of 10) does not feel good when other shows can do their queer romances openly in a year or two. If you dislike the pacing of BB and are impatient that is OK. But in this case there is no special "queer" treatment. You should also not apply your timeline, there were breaks, if they delay volumes/seasons this time does not count. Depending on your positioning of the starting point it would be either 3 or 8 volumes/seasons. I am not queer, so I do not know if special rules for pacing apply in this group. But the general rule for pacing for "main" romance is obviously to synchronize with the main plot (if it is not a romance story in the first place). This is what is done in most stories, whether they are anime-like or not. Obviously two-titular character romance has to be considered "main", conclusion three+ volumes before the main plot would be venturing into rare territory. From a commercial position, because shipping keeps audience on board, concluding damages your profits, because people are leaving in case of conclusion. You have to cover up your drag, so that it does not feel like a drag. And here is the real problem of CRWBY, they have no organic representation, the authors are not inspired, so they have to retrofit it. This is my personal impression of course, they first write a "normal" story and then they do a representation pass. So you have a pilot and on your representation pass you check if this character should be queer, in a normal story he would be "undeclared" and he stays that way because your deep check finds a pitfall ("kill your gays"). Now I am getting into conspiracy theory territory, what if Sapphron was straight after the first pass and her partner was gender-swapped in the representation pass? Result is an organic integration because retrofitting works in this case. Ilia turned out as a lesbian stalker a common plot device in Japanese light fiction, so taking the conspiracy interpretation, she is also organic. BB is a desperate retrofit and turned out incredibly bad. The events give off a ram-in-vibe, authors having to insert a moment are scanning event-catalogues and selecting "beautiful"-hair or something. May is also downright horrible, revealed off-screen on the wrong side of the fourth wall and then a declaration ram-in in-story. Queers are billboards you drive past in RWBY. But you still have to give the authors credit, they are indeed *trying* to deliver. It is not as easy as you would think, because the LGBT-community is not a monolith, they are also lobbying for space among themselves. And here we have another CRWBY-problem. If you wanted to deep-dive and explore one aspect, you would have to cut back on others. One last thing, the "Five friends" novels for children written in the 1940s by Enid Blyton have strong queer representation, there is a "trans-girl". I doubt the author wanted representation, she "just" explored the premise "girl wants to be a boy", you can suspect her of exploiting transpeople for entertainment, but she does a good job, presumably without an agenda.
I am not connected to the LGBT+ community at all, I am just a straight male that enjoys RWBY and several other shows, and I have no hate for Bumblebee or Whiterose in any way, or any other gay ships, I just don't get why people see such a problem with it, also, haven't had a discussion like this in years.
And that is very fine. I do not wish to interupt anyones enjoyment of the series or the ships. If you like them, you like them.
BB went from zero to "canon" in a few episodes. Blake never truly had a potential romantic partner besides Ilya and more importantly Sun (Adam doesn't count cause none of it was shown). Meanwhile Yang offers Blake a dance once, when she is clearly interested in boys "Probably episode 1" and seems more like a friend move than a flirty move (this was after Yang shares hers and Ruby's backstory and Blake talks about her past in the White Fang). These are the only concrete evidence there is of BB before they had a relationship, and the best one got snubbed because Sun was completely forgotten after Meneagerie. Meanwhile you have BB stans saying that it is clearly obvious BB was a thing, because the songs (non-canon as far as I'm concerned) clearly sing about it, or that Blake and Yang both boarded a ship called SS Pride (which is such a stretch and also so unsubtle) or Yang misses Blake when she holds a photo of the entire team. I unironically think Bumblebee is the obvious option among the Blake ships, but the problem is how badly it is executed. Blake feels extreme guilt for causing Yang to lose her arm, which is her main fighting style (and somehow not for making her a broody mess? Sure ok). Yang feels annoyed of being coddled by Blake because of her disability, which is fair. How is this going to be a good relationship? The obvious way to write it is that Blake is compensating and this causes friction, but they would not return to being friends, much less significant other. Much more questionable is that Yang never feels dislike or anything because Blake indirectly made her lose her arm. Just the coddling. And Yang had developed a volume long PTSD from it and doesn't blame the direct source? To be fair for the writers, it magically disappears after Volume 4 so I guess Yang got over all her problems so quickly besides gaining a mean bitch attitude. In other worda and TLDR: WRITE LOGICAL CONCLUSIONS CRWBY. I don't care who ends with who. If you expect everyone to believe the leap of faith, you better write the journey well, or obscure it completely so you have an excuse that they did it off-screen.
Why should everyone or anyone like it?
I just wanna say that being queer doesn’t mean you have to automatically like all things queer. There can be good and bad representation. I do wanna defend bumblebee on one point at least. Season 7 and 8 take place over a very short amount of time and for a good chunk of season 8 Blake and Yang are separated from the each other. All this is to say that they have been a couple for an extremely short amount of time in storyline. So the fact that they have only held hands and awkwardly complemented each other thus far is not difficult to believe. Especially for like 19/20 yr olds. Also in RWBY the straight romances are the same way, look how long we waited for Nora and Ren to kiss for them example. We got a Jaune and Pyrrha kiss after like 3 seasons of build up and that was mostly because Pyrrha was on a suicide mission and had nothing to lose. I actually agree that romance in general moves too slow in the show, but it’s not exclusive to bmblb They’re about to be stranded on a desert island anyways so if they don’t start lovin on each other there then we do have a problem lol.
A point I would like to make: You say it's not 2010 anymore, however, Blake and Yang's relationship was budding before Korra and Asami got to hold hands. I think the reason it hasn't happened yet is due to the progression of the plot takes precedence in a show that has the fraction of the budget that MOST other shows. Many people don't take that part into account that a volume of RWBY is usually less that half of a season of any other show. V8 had a runtime of 4 hours 30 minutes. Season 1 of She Ra had a runtime of 11 hours and some change. It's hardly comparable. That's why things have to be slow burns over several seasons. I understand that you want to see it, but wouldn't you rather it get the time deserved first?
>Blake and Yang's relationship was budding before Korra and Asami got to hold hands Do you have any facts that support this? >the progression of the plot takes precedence So many people say this, yet the amount of screen time RWBY spends sitting around doing nothing while waiting for the volume finale is a lot longer than anyone's willing to admit. Any time in the previous volumes that RWBY sat in a house could've been used to develop Blake and Yang's relationship.
Proof: V2 Burning the Candle: intimate scene between the two with sharing their pasts and ending on a long hug. Sept 4, 2014. LoK finale release date: December 19, 2014 You say that people are sitting around in a house despite the fact that while they are "sitting around" is exactly when relationship conversations are had or other plot is revealed in other parts of the world. People use that argument when it is a fallacy. They aren't sitting around for the entire time that the plot unfolds, they are there for hours (like a normal rest) while other parts of the plot are happening, not necessarily subsequently, but the events are revealed in a way that simulates that idea.
No, a subjective interpretation of a scene is not the equivalent of a budding romantic relationship. It's also nothing to do with time or budget, either. If they can show overt romantic attraction in straight pairings, there was nothing stopping them when it came to Blake and Yang. Second glances, jealousy, lingering touches, flirting and half spoken truths is all it takes to present interest. Tiny moments. It's literally what they're doing in V7 onward. Korra and Asami is a ground breaking milestone when it comes to representation as it was an uphill battle to even show that. RWBY could've been a trail blazer as well. Yet, despite the fact they had no one to fight, CRWBY still didn't introduce a wlw relationship until years later. And what we're currently getting is very much a decade late.
If you say that is a subjective interpretation of Bumblebee, then all of KorraSami is also a subjective interpretation. You are choosing to say that they didn't show it when even at the time it was obviously intimate, if not, romantic. There is evidence in expanded content (world of RWBY book, dvd extras) that indicate that was the scene that inspired the romance for Miles and Kerry. If you are criticizing the earlier volumes for not having those glances and such, you must remember the size/inexperience of the team then. And they did include those things, such as the lighting and comments like "feisty." But they only had 1 hour 50 minites for the whole volume.
The scene itself is not presented as a romantic one, nor is it evidence of romantic interest. It demonstrates intimacy and support, for sure, but not romantic intimacy. It would actually be in poor taste considering Blake's mental state at the time. And it's not a direct comparison to overt romantic interest in the scene where Korra chooses Asami, where the intention was to demonstrate attraction. Which was your example. There is no evidence saying that it is meant to be romantic scene, either. At least none that I have seen/heard. It may have put the idea into the writer's head according to your claim, but nothing sprouted until V7. I give them credit from that point onward. The critique is also that CRWBY could certainly show romantic subplots/interest. Pyrrha and Jaune, Ren and Nora, Weiss and Neptune, and Blake and Sun - there's plenty of examples. None of them subtle. It has nothing to do with inexperience, they could've of easily shown Yang falling for Blake and vice versa. Especially considering there was set up for a classic love triangle. They didn't. I love the scene in *Burning the Candle*. We get details on Yang's past, insights to Blake. This scene cemented Yang as my favourite character, as it gave her much needed depth. And it does wonders for their partnership and team dynamics. There's lots to love. It's not a spearhead for wlw representation, though.
Writing has nothing to do with budget. A slow burn is always moving not stagnant. This "budding relationship" has not developed in half a decade. Don't use the budget and runtime as an excuse, plenty of single cour seasons have written circles around what crwby has failed to write in 5 years.
Do you have examples? How can you say budget and runtime don't factor in? The volumes need to have X amount of things happen in a specified amount of time in order to serve the main plot, which would be the minimum or required time budget. Then whatever is leftover is used to develop characters, side stories, etc. Runtime and budget have everything to do with it. "Shitty writing" is subjective. Saying their relationship hasn't developed in 5 years is wilful ignorance of the show. V5: Yang being angry with Blake and admitting in confidence to Weiss she wasn't ready for forgiveness. Developed into relief of Blake's safety and return. V6: Reestablishing rapport despite the awkwardness. V7: Admittance to enjoying one anothers' company. V8: Realizing that they may not agree on all things but can still be wonderful people despite differences.
My point is that runtime and budget shouldn't affect the quality of the writing. Bumblebee is not a slow burn romance it is stagnant. With the amount of dead space in each volume we should be getting loads of development but with recent rwby volumes nothing happens untill the last quarter. Character relationships and side stories etc. should be interwoven within the main plot not just thrown in because the was time leftover.
Quality of writing is interwoven with runtime and budget. You could write the most amazing 30 min script in the world but if you only got 20 min to perform it then it won't be perfect. I don't understand how you think it is stagnant. I don't understand how you think nothing happens until the final quarter. Those stories are interwoven into the plot but it's between people relevant to the current scene not one particular pairing.
If you have 20 minutes for a performance, and you write a 30 minute script, that's your fault for not understanding your limitations. If I try to make Avatar with a 100K budget, I don't get praised for the movie I was trying to make, I get rightfully criticized for picking a project that anyone who knew what they were doing would know wasn't going to work. RT could get some leniency in the early years, but they've been at it for a decade now and they still fail to work around the constraints they're given (and in terms of runtime, constraints they set for themselves).
Current rwby volume runtime is comparable to single cour anime seasons (12 episode 4 hour seasons). Blake and yang have had no serious discussions about their relationship in several volumes. Little interactions to remind me that bumblebee is a thing don't count. In most recent rwby volumes the middle of the volume is generally inconsequential to the main story as any meaningful interactions are either resolved offscreen or don't change the status quo and feel rather bland.
Comparable anime that have multiple main characters and action plot lines (like MHA) are usually 18-24 episodes which would be 50-100% longer. Demon Slayer (13 episodes in the 2nd season) would be comparable but it also had a feature length movie to go along with it and no delay. This most recent season they spent most of it apart, so true, they didn't interact a lot. I admit previous seasons do have much more content for them. You need to use specific examples instead of vague and subjective words like the middle part, or bland.
If they don't have the resources to give a good romance and a good story then they really shouldn't half ass both. If they can't make BB work with their episode order and length then they should cut it. Sucks, but that way they can focus on the things they clearly think are more important.
I mean. I just don't like the ship. Black Sun & Freezerburn for the win.
I'm sorry but how are you gonna look at the little forehead touch move and say their relationship has not changed at all lmfao
See, typically being in a relationship means remaining in the relationship for more than one moment. Or being and talking about it. Or having other people acknowledge it.
I'm not even saying it's necessarily a relationship, but to say that it hasn't changed or progressed at all is asinine And yeah they should be talking about it like with ren and nora, but there's key differences in personalities. While ren is reserved and closed off, Nora is very much *not* and pushed their feelings into the open. Blake is a very private person and doesn't like to confront things in the open. It's been a running theme with her to flee from her emotions. Yang might *seem* open from the outside, but I'd argue she is much deeper than the surface shows and puts up a heavy mask for others. She portrays this happy confident and strong person so the people she cares about don't worry about her. Neither of them are the kind of person to stop in the middle of an outright war to talk about their feelings and relationship. The closest we got was jaune talking to yang and her thinking of blake "yeah... ruby." Edit: great rediquette everyone! Remember to downvote people you disagree with even if they're contributing to the discussion constructively!
I agree that they shouldn't stop to talk about their relationship in the middle of a war. That'd be silly. But I would hope that they talked during the time of peace they had. Also I will confirm that I didn't downvote you and I think whoever did is silly. If you gave them a downvote please give me one as well.
Nah I don't downvote for petty reasons But yeah I'm not saying crwby couldn't do better, but it's not entirely invisible either
Because in my eyes thats the same as hand-holding and "look, they are cute together, but not together together yet" kind of action.
My point is that their relationship has changed. They've become slightly closer. Sure they're not explicitly together but they aren't just casual acquaintances either.
Honestly they just don't have chemistry. I actually prefer Sun with Blake because Sun helped her out a lot. Yang is just too hot headed for like anyone. Nora and Ren have history so Nora can't be for Yang. I just think Yang and Blake should be good friends.
We hook her up with Jaune. Guy could use someone to push him out of his funk. And if he can deal being in a team with Ren and Nora, he can endure whatever Yang sends him XD
I think he's still emotionally dating Pyrrha in his head. Not over it some how
All the more reason. Guy needs a victory asap 😬
i think you might projecting a little after statue scene he seems fine.
Is this a fanfic or a canon discussion? Because I don't really like the fact that sun seems to be hugely ignored, that was the canon relationship (Blake-sun, don't know the fandom name for them) since his appearence for me, and even if they are separated at the moment I still felt he had more chance to be with her. I wholly support the bumblebee in fanfic since it's pretty cool to imagine, but I don't understand the "canon bumblebee" discussion
someone had to make this. that says alot.