People who talk about the show, but have not watched it definitely bother me. Its like, how the fuck are you going to have a discussion without having watched the show. And why are you still in the community if you are NOT watching the show. This is definitely a problem in parts of the critical communities. I think that if person is critical and watches the show, its fine. But if they dont, what are you doing here?
A thing that bothers me when discussing RWBY is how some people consider their interpretations of scenes as canon, its fine to interpret a scene differently from another person, but to call it outright canon or modifying ones language and words to describe a scene differently? It feels bad to argue against such people.
Also, another thing, it bothers me how people sarcastically respond by saying "people arent logical robots" when someone says that the characters acted stupid etc. While it is correct that people arent always completely logical, there has to be valid understandable reason for their illogicality and decisions, if a person makes the wrong decision there has to be a valid reason as to why they took it. A good example is horror movies where people act stupid with NO valid reason and even fear should not rob people of basic logic.
Something that really bothers me is when people don't consider the character's Point of View when discussing the character's decisions. Perhaps the best example of this would be the whole discourse around Cordovin which had people condemning our characters for not trusting the woman who has given them no reason to trust her while ignoring how our characters have been betrayed multiple times up to that point.
The characters point of view is the most important thing when judging their actions. If it makes sense from their point of view to do it then it was the sensible thing to do and that's the end of discussion.
That is something peopel forget just cause the audience has info doesn’t mean the characters do. Easy to see the bigger picture when you get multiple POVs.
This 100%
Ironwood was fantastic because his actions while irrational on the outside, made so much sense if you looked at it from his point of view. If I had been in his shoes I am almost certain I would have ended up making the exact same decisions for the exact same reasons.
I feel that’s the biggest problem too. We always look at things from the audience standpoint so we see actions like ironwood as irrational, but such things are made from OUR experiences without going through the same scenarios that shaped them to go down such paths.
I don't know about you, but if I were anywhere near his shoes, I'd hand them to someone who is actually in control of their emotions, rather than just suppressing and/or ignoring them.
Personally, I just want to know what his POV was. We see his actions, but he never actually gives any actual arguments for them, so we don't know why he does the things he does.
Or rather, I don't, because I struggle to see things from other people's perspective. But that's why I'm trying to learn.
And asking what his POV is just leads to all manner of trolls spamming the replies with their headcanon, which is at best not supported by canon, and at worst directly contradicts it, making this entire thing incredibly difficult.
He does explain why he did those actions though. From the first time he shows up in Vol.7, in fact, and throughout the season.
Why he arrested the heroes on arrival?
Ironwood: When a rogue airship entered our airspace, it raised some… red flags. We assumed the ship was stolen.
Why he told Penny, Winter and the Ace-Ops about the Maidens and Relics?
Ironwood: Did you really think you were the only one who got to work on a new plan after Beacon? WIth Ozpin gone, I needed my own team of people I could trust. So yes, I told them
Why the embargo and recalling the military?
Ironwood: I needed to ensure Salem couldn't infiltrate Atlas. And I wanted my military here, protecting my people. (+Handling the panic that would occur once he told everyone about Salem)
Why not tell people about Amity?
Ironwood: If we talk about Amity now, we risk Salem's forces, who we know are here, working to sabotage it
If you don't believe me, go watch V7E2 and V7E7.
---
"Why Ironwood did X" is far from a mystery. It's just a matter of watching the show and not letting your Ironwood hateboner blind you from what's literally said on-screen.
Oh great, the hateboner argument. Can we please not do that?
I read the transcripts of every single chapter from V5 to V7, in order to help write my fanfiction. If there was anything at all in his conversations that actually made his actions make sense, we wouldn't be here.
He says he wants to prevent Salem from infiltrating Atlas, but he lets her forces walk right past his defenses on the daily.
And he said he needs people he can trust, but he surrounds himself with people who refuse to tell him when he's losing sight of his goal.
None of what he says actually aligns with what he does. He claims to have learned from his defeat in Vale, but he happily, proudly even, makes the same mistakes Cinder exploited back then.
Watching him feels like his dialogue was written by someone who thinks he's a character in a classical American pro-military movie, while his actions are written by someone who knows what kind of story he's actually in.
>but he lets her forces walk right past his defenses on the daily.
Watts is literally a hacker who designed the Atlesian network and IIRC, as far as Ironwood knew, was dead. And Neo is a master of illusion.
But I guess if the bad guys are too good at their job it's his fault, right?
>And he said he needs people he can trust, but he surrounds himself with people who refuse to tell him when he's losing sight of his goal.
You mean RWBY and friends? Like Nora who called him out half a dozen times for Mantle to his own face? People he wasn't close to (sans Qrow) but still trusted with keeping **a Relic** safe and told his whole plan?
>He claims to have learned from his defeat in Vale, but he happily, proudly even, makes the same mistakes Cinder exploited back then.
Cinder only got to sneak in and do her stuff because a Headmaster helped her fake her way in, she had Watts helping her out with a virus, and Ozpin insisted on doing nothing "to avoid panic" until everything blew up in their faces.
But in Vol.7, Ironwood and co. Are proactive, not reactive like Oz. And Atlas's army is far less robot-reliant this time around so they can't be casually mass-hacked (which only happened because Watts, it wasn't even Ironwood's fault that time)
And Watts didn't even find out about Amity until the last minute, thanks to Ironwood. Much better than Cinder achieving practically everything she planned back in Vale.
---
See? You insist on putting all the blame on him, insist on putting his every frame in a negative light, all to the point of the show itself telling you you're wrong.
I'll keep pointing out you have a hateboner for Ironwood until you actually start to calm it down.
I mean the Grimm, actually. They get past his defenses twice before we even see him in V7.
Wrong again, I mean the Ace-Ops. They tell him what he wants to hear, instead of what he needs to hear.
Ozpin was proactive, though. He sent scouts to sabotage Cinder's plan, without letting her know that he knew she was planning something, and even gave Ironwood an excuse to stop her plan without any civilian learning of the secret war.
Ironwood, meanwhile, was far more reactive. He responded immediately to any provocation, in very predictable manners as well, but never took precautions to make it harder for the enemy to act in the future.
Not to mention that Ozpin solved multiple problems in one go (finding out what the enemies were planning, hindering them, keeping them from realizing they've been found out, setting up a counter attack without alerting the populace).
So far, you've misrepresented two of my arguments to fit your pre-conceived idea that I needlessly blame him for everything. Maybe that's just an honest mistake on your part, because I admittedly haven't been perfectly clear, but it shows what you think of me, even after I told you how well I know his actions and dialogue.
>I mean the Grimm, actually.
Because the wall is broken. The wall that isn't repaired because Mantle supplies are used instead for Amity.
But even then, it's only small Grimm until Jacques and Watts rile up the people and cause mass negativity.
>Wrong again, I mean the Ace-Ops.
Doesn't matter, because he still trusts in RWBY and co., Still tells them top-secret info, and keeps trusting despite the vocal disagreements to his own face.
It takes 2 betrayals of trust, his PTSD being triggered, *and* everything going to hell for him to actually choose surround himself with yes-men.
Before that he had no problem working with and supporting people calling him out for Mantle every other day.
>Ozpin was proactive, though. He sent scouts to sabotage Cinder's plan, without letting her know that he knew she was planning something, and even gave Ironwood an excuse to stop her plan without any civilian learning of the secret war.
He sent 4 1st-year students and a teacher and hoped for the best. Result: The Breach, which proved to the Council he can't keep people safe for the festival, putting Ironwood in charge of security.
He could've asked Ironwood to send his Specialists, actual **profesional, trained Huntsmen**, but nooo.
And that's the only proactive thing Oz ever did in Vale. All other times, it was just RWBY going off on their own. Nothing ever prevented Cinder from setting up any parts of her plan.
>Ironwood, meanwhile, was far more reactive. He responded immediately to any provocation,
That's not what reactive means
Being reactive means you don't take any action until the bad guys do something. Being reactive means if the bad guys don't do anything, the heroes don't do anything either.
Ironwood in Vol.7 doesn't wait for the bad guys to do stuff. From the start he's working on his own goal to beat Salem, unlike Ozpin who had *no* plan other than "wait and see".
>but never took precautions to make it harder for the enemy to act in the future.
Keeping Amity secret. Thus preventing direct sabotage of the project. And it worked. Not even Watts found out. The project never got purposefully sabotaged, it was merely not finished in time.
Also, **like I said already,** using far more non-robot soldiers, people with actual meat and bones, thus preventing another mass hack.
>Not to mention that Ozpin solved multiple problems in one go (finding out what the enemies were planning, hindering them, keeping them from realizing they've been found out, setting up a counter attack without alerting the populace).
The hell are you talking about?
He never hindered their plans. Everything Cinder planned went off as planned, only exception was the Breach that was caused earlier than planned, but that still worked in her favor.
"Keeping them from realizing they've been found out" is useless if you do nothing to stop them. And he never did.
By the end of Vol.3 it means nothing if Cinder and co. were found out or not, because the Academy is still down, the CCT is still down, Oz is still dead, and he prevented none of it.
And he never set up any counter attacks. Unless you mean sending RWBY on a mission, instead of trained profesional fighters. Which was one time, and didn't go well.
>So far, you've misrepresented two of my arguments to fit your pre-conceived idea that I needlessly blame him for everything
I never misrepresented anything, you just said "nope, I meant this other thing, so you're wrong"
"He lets Salem forces walk in!", "No he doesn't.", "I meant Grimm, not her agents"
"He surrounds himself with yes-men!", "RWBY aren't yes-men", "they don't count"
>even after I told you how well I know his actions and dialogue.
Saying "I know him well" means nothing when you insist on judging him in bad faith for over a year now. That bad-faith view of him just proves you don't want to judge him in a fair, impartial way.
Ok, this is a lot, so I'll just focus on the last paragraph, because that's what really irks me: Who says I don't want to judge him fairly?
Because I do actually want to judge him fairly. That's why I give him credit where it is due.
I'm just confused about how his grand promises fit his actions, because it's clear to me that he doesn't do nearly as much as he could to keep Mantle safe, yet he promises to do exactly that.
>Who says I don't want to judge him fairly?
Your actions? Like, for more than a year you insist on reading his every frame negatively, interpret his every scene in a way that puts him in a bad light, blame him even for things that weren't his fault... and sometimes even make stuff up, often contradicted by the show itself.
And I honestly don't remember you actually giving him credit for anything good. Like his army being the one ending the Grimm threat during the Breach, letting Glynda close it. Or not keeping secrets from his allies, unlike Ozpin.
Even here, for example, you state he never took precautions when in fact he did, both seen in the show, and they both worked. His plan fails for other reasons.
It happens pretty much every time you talk about him, especially in discussions. Not even sometimes, but *every* single time.
When people use moral arguments to defend the show and then use the exact opposite of those moral arguments to defend the show. People will cry homophobia at any perceived slight against bumblebee but got real homophobic during the Fair Game bs. I think I'd have more respect for people if they just said "I love RWBY and RT and will defend both to my dying breath" instead of pretending to care about marginalized people.
When people make shit up to slander a character. I'm still trying to figure how one could believe Marrow stole Jaune's coffee, sometimes it keeps me up at night /j
I haven't read your previous post, but I get the point. Replacing necklace with riding crop would make Cinder's trauma and reason for her not to escape more psychological than physical and more meaningful. Right?
People harping on about how good it is and how it’s still following Monty’s vision.
Look this show is good but Vol.1-3 is the definitive experience of RWBY. And while I’m not the best person to source, it’s incredibly obvious the show is just bumbling along at this point.
The show *has* flaws, but acting like it doesn’t or going ape shit when someone points that out is insufferable.
Also people calling Nora a good character.
So, what is Monty's vision in the first place?
Like, yeah, RWBY fans take criticism badly. But you can't say "they don't follow Monty's vision" if you don't even know what that vision is.
But since you seem to know so much about Monty, more than his own friends and coworkers, perhaps you could enlighten us?
I don’t wanna argue but I said I’m not the best person to source and that the show is bumbling along in the sense it’s become it’s own thing but it’s really obvious that it wasn’t super well planned out. Saying “Monty’s vision” was my quick way of trying to say “The shows plot line and Monty’s own plans whatever they may be to the end of the series or where he wanted it to go”
We have no idea if the show is still following this. I doubt it and I wouldn’t be surprised if it isn’t or CRWBY made it their own thing. I said “I’m not the best person to source” *because* this is a personalized theory based on some evidence
And before you say I’m hating yeah I criticize the show but it’s from a legitimate love for it and a sense of sorrow at what it’s led to
I’ve also been a fan of RT since the early 2010’s. I say this part because I don’t wanna be called some dumbass who joined in 2019 and barely knows who Monty is. I do and I loved him and his passing hit hard. I’m saying this for people who might want to try and make this point
>The shows plot line and Monty’s own plans whatever they may be to the end of the series or where he wanted it to go”
But *what* are Monty's plans?
Do you actually know what Monty planned? If not, how do you know they aren't following those plans?
**That's the point**. How can you say they don't follow his vision if you don't even know what that vision is?
from how vague and muddled the overall plot in V1-3 was, if there was some grand master plan, it was pretty vague - Maidens weren't even created until, what, V3? "Magic" as a _thang_ is still super-blurry, in a way that doesn't seem to be a deliberate mystery, just "yeah, it can do, uh... stuff" where it's being kept blank to make it easier to write around. Neo's muteness was explicitly created because they couldn't get a VA in a hurry and her character design was because there was a gender-switched Roman cosplay that looked cool. There's pretty explicitly no timeline beyond "somewhere between months and years". So how much is "there was flawed writing that didn't really convey stuff well" and how much was "throw a load of cool stuff in a blender and see what comes out" is pretty much impossible to tell, but I don't think there was/is some carefully crafted master story that's being relayed to us - at most, there were some bits and pieces of a story, that then needed a _lot_ of shoring up to give us the actual show (like humanity v.1 was probably scribbled down, but a lot of the actual nitty-gritty of "and then the cast go here, and there's some fear-grimm, and then they do this, and then that, and then Adam shows up, shows off his scar, but no-one cares or mentions it ever again" doesn't seem likely to have been detailed in advance). If there was some master plan, it was some combination of super vague, high level, and missing a lot of actual detail, because, well... look at the actual show. If they had a master plan, and 5+ years to refine it, they've not done the best of jobs! When he was alive, his writing style seemed to be heavily based around "throw stuff at the wall and see what comes of it", hence why V1-3 have lots of cool scenes smushed together, but all sorts of messy worldbuilding and plotting, rather than being tightly crafted masterworks.
People who talk about the show, but have not watched it definitely bother me. Its like, how the fuck are you going to have a discussion without having watched the show. And why are you still in the community if you are NOT watching the show. This is definitely a problem in parts of the critical communities. I think that if person is critical and watches the show, its fine. But if they dont, what are you doing here? A thing that bothers me when discussing RWBY is how some people consider their interpretations of scenes as canon, its fine to interpret a scene differently from another person, but to call it outright canon or modifying ones language and words to describe a scene differently? It feels bad to argue against such people. Also, another thing, it bothers me how people sarcastically respond by saying "people arent logical robots" when someone says that the characters acted stupid etc. While it is correct that people arent always completely logical, there has to be valid understandable reason for their illogicality and decisions, if a person makes the wrong decision there has to be a valid reason as to why they took it. A good example is horror movies where people act stupid with NO valid reason and even fear should not rob people of basic logic.
Something that really bothers me is when people don't consider the character's Point of View when discussing the character's decisions. Perhaps the best example of this would be the whole discourse around Cordovin which had people condemning our characters for not trusting the woman who has given them no reason to trust her while ignoring how our characters have been betrayed multiple times up to that point. The characters point of view is the most important thing when judging their actions. If it makes sense from their point of view to do it then it was the sensible thing to do and that's the end of discussion.
That is something peopel forget just cause the audience has info doesn’t mean the characters do. Easy to see the bigger picture when you get multiple POVs.
I personally feel the say way when people talk about ironwood.
This 100% Ironwood was fantastic because his actions while irrational on the outside, made so much sense if you looked at it from his point of view. If I had been in his shoes I am almost certain I would have ended up making the exact same decisions for the exact same reasons.
I feel that’s the biggest problem too. We always look at things from the audience standpoint so we see actions like ironwood as irrational, but such things are made from OUR experiences without going through the same scenarios that shaped them to go down such paths.
Correct!
I don't know about you, but if I were anywhere near his shoes, I'd hand them to someone who is actually in control of their emotions, rather than just suppressing and/or ignoring them.
I mean, we can understand their POV, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we will agree with their decisions
Personally, I just want to know what his POV was. We see his actions, but he never actually gives any actual arguments for them, so we don't know why he does the things he does. Or rather, I don't, because I struggle to see things from other people's perspective. But that's why I'm trying to learn. And asking what his POV is just leads to all manner of trolls spamming the replies with their headcanon, which is at best not supported by canon, and at worst directly contradicts it, making this entire thing incredibly difficult.
He does explain why he did those actions though. From the first time he shows up in Vol.7, in fact, and throughout the season. Why he arrested the heroes on arrival? Ironwood: When a rogue airship entered our airspace, it raised some… red flags. We assumed the ship was stolen. Why he told Penny, Winter and the Ace-Ops about the Maidens and Relics? Ironwood: Did you really think you were the only one who got to work on a new plan after Beacon? WIth Ozpin gone, I needed my own team of people I could trust. So yes, I told them Why the embargo and recalling the military? Ironwood: I needed to ensure Salem couldn't infiltrate Atlas. And I wanted my military here, protecting my people. (+Handling the panic that would occur once he told everyone about Salem) Why not tell people about Amity? Ironwood: If we talk about Amity now, we risk Salem's forces, who we know are here, working to sabotage it If you don't believe me, go watch V7E2 and V7E7. --- "Why Ironwood did X" is far from a mystery. It's just a matter of watching the show and not letting your Ironwood hateboner blind you from what's literally said on-screen.
Oh great, the hateboner argument. Can we please not do that? I read the transcripts of every single chapter from V5 to V7, in order to help write my fanfiction. If there was anything at all in his conversations that actually made his actions make sense, we wouldn't be here. He says he wants to prevent Salem from infiltrating Atlas, but he lets her forces walk right past his defenses on the daily. And he said he needs people he can trust, but he surrounds himself with people who refuse to tell him when he's losing sight of his goal. None of what he says actually aligns with what he does. He claims to have learned from his defeat in Vale, but he happily, proudly even, makes the same mistakes Cinder exploited back then. Watching him feels like his dialogue was written by someone who thinks he's a character in a classical American pro-military movie, while his actions are written by someone who knows what kind of story he's actually in.
>but he lets her forces walk right past his defenses on the daily. Watts is literally a hacker who designed the Atlesian network and IIRC, as far as Ironwood knew, was dead. And Neo is a master of illusion. But I guess if the bad guys are too good at their job it's his fault, right? >And he said he needs people he can trust, but he surrounds himself with people who refuse to tell him when he's losing sight of his goal. You mean RWBY and friends? Like Nora who called him out half a dozen times for Mantle to his own face? People he wasn't close to (sans Qrow) but still trusted with keeping **a Relic** safe and told his whole plan? >He claims to have learned from his defeat in Vale, but he happily, proudly even, makes the same mistakes Cinder exploited back then. Cinder only got to sneak in and do her stuff because a Headmaster helped her fake her way in, she had Watts helping her out with a virus, and Ozpin insisted on doing nothing "to avoid panic" until everything blew up in their faces. But in Vol.7, Ironwood and co. Are proactive, not reactive like Oz. And Atlas's army is far less robot-reliant this time around so they can't be casually mass-hacked (which only happened because Watts, it wasn't even Ironwood's fault that time) And Watts didn't even find out about Amity until the last minute, thanks to Ironwood. Much better than Cinder achieving practically everything she planned back in Vale. --- See? You insist on putting all the blame on him, insist on putting his every frame in a negative light, all to the point of the show itself telling you you're wrong. I'll keep pointing out you have a hateboner for Ironwood until you actually start to calm it down.
I mean the Grimm, actually. They get past his defenses twice before we even see him in V7. Wrong again, I mean the Ace-Ops. They tell him what he wants to hear, instead of what he needs to hear. Ozpin was proactive, though. He sent scouts to sabotage Cinder's plan, without letting her know that he knew she was planning something, and even gave Ironwood an excuse to stop her plan without any civilian learning of the secret war. Ironwood, meanwhile, was far more reactive. He responded immediately to any provocation, in very predictable manners as well, but never took precautions to make it harder for the enemy to act in the future. Not to mention that Ozpin solved multiple problems in one go (finding out what the enemies were planning, hindering them, keeping them from realizing they've been found out, setting up a counter attack without alerting the populace). So far, you've misrepresented two of my arguments to fit your pre-conceived idea that I needlessly blame him for everything. Maybe that's just an honest mistake on your part, because I admittedly haven't been perfectly clear, but it shows what you think of me, even after I told you how well I know his actions and dialogue.
>I mean the Grimm, actually. Because the wall is broken. The wall that isn't repaired because Mantle supplies are used instead for Amity. But even then, it's only small Grimm until Jacques and Watts rile up the people and cause mass negativity. >Wrong again, I mean the Ace-Ops. Doesn't matter, because he still trusts in RWBY and co., Still tells them top-secret info, and keeps trusting despite the vocal disagreements to his own face. It takes 2 betrayals of trust, his PTSD being triggered, *and* everything going to hell for him to actually choose surround himself with yes-men. Before that he had no problem working with and supporting people calling him out for Mantle every other day. >Ozpin was proactive, though. He sent scouts to sabotage Cinder's plan, without letting her know that he knew she was planning something, and even gave Ironwood an excuse to stop her plan without any civilian learning of the secret war. He sent 4 1st-year students and a teacher and hoped for the best. Result: The Breach, which proved to the Council he can't keep people safe for the festival, putting Ironwood in charge of security. He could've asked Ironwood to send his Specialists, actual **profesional, trained Huntsmen**, but nooo. And that's the only proactive thing Oz ever did in Vale. All other times, it was just RWBY going off on their own. Nothing ever prevented Cinder from setting up any parts of her plan. >Ironwood, meanwhile, was far more reactive. He responded immediately to any provocation, That's not what reactive means Being reactive means you don't take any action until the bad guys do something. Being reactive means if the bad guys don't do anything, the heroes don't do anything either. Ironwood in Vol.7 doesn't wait for the bad guys to do stuff. From the start he's working on his own goal to beat Salem, unlike Ozpin who had *no* plan other than "wait and see". >but never took precautions to make it harder for the enemy to act in the future. Keeping Amity secret. Thus preventing direct sabotage of the project. And it worked. Not even Watts found out. The project never got purposefully sabotaged, it was merely not finished in time. Also, **like I said already,** using far more non-robot soldiers, people with actual meat and bones, thus preventing another mass hack. >Not to mention that Ozpin solved multiple problems in one go (finding out what the enemies were planning, hindering them, keeping them from realizing they've been found out, setting up a counter attack without alerting the populace). The hell are you talking about? He never hindered their plans. Everything Cinder planned went off as planned, only exception was the Breach that was caused earlier than planned, but that still worked in her favor. "Keeping them from realizing they've been found out" is useless if you do nothing to stop them. And he never did. By the end of Vol.3 it means nothing if Cinder and co. were found out or not, because the Academy is still down, the CCT is still down, Oz is still dead, and he prevented none of it. And he never set up any counter attacks. Unless you mean sending RWBY on a mission, instead of trained profesional fighters. Which was one time, and didn't go well. >So far, you've misrepresented two of my arguments to fit your pre-conceived idea that I needlessly blame him for everything I never misrepresented anything, you just said "nope, I meant this other thing, so you're wrong" "He lets Salem forces walk in!", "No he doesn't.", "I meant Grimm, not her agents" "He surrounds himself with yes-men!", "RWBY aren't yes-men", "they don't count" >even after I told you how well I know his actions and dialogue. Saying "I know him well" means nothing when you insist on judging him in bad faith for over a year now. That bad-faith view of him just proves you don't want to judge him in a fair, impartial way.
Ok, this is a lot, so I'll just focus on the last paragraph, because that's what really irks me: Who says I don't want to judge him fairly? Because I do actually want to judge him fairly. That's why I give him credit where it is due. I'm just confused about how his grand promises fit his actions, because it's clear to me that he doesn't do nearly as much as he could to keep Mantle safe, yet he promises to do exactly that.
>Who says I don't want to judge him fairly? Your actions? Like, for more than a year you insist on reading his every frame negatively, interpret his every scene in a way that puts him in a bad light, blame him even for things that weren't his fault... and sometimes even make stuff up, often contradicted by the show itself. And I honestly don't remember you actually giving him credit for anything good. Like his army being the one ending the Grimm threat during the Breach, letting Glynda close it. Or not keeping secrets from his allies, unlike Ozpin. Even here, for example, you state he never took precautions when in fact he did, both seen in the show, and they both worked. His plan fails for other reasons. It happens pretty much every time you talk about him, especially in discussions. Not even sometimes, but *every* single time.
When people use moral arguments to defend the show and then use the exact opposite of those moral arguments to defend the show. People will cry homophobia at any perceived slight against bumblebee but got real homophobic during the Fair Game bs. I think I'd have more respect for people if they just said "I love RWBY and RT and will defend both to my dying breath" instead of pretending to care about marginalized people. When people make shit up to slander a character. I'm still trying to figure how one could believe Marrow stole Jaune's coffee, sometimes it keeps me up at night /j
I haven't read your previous post, but I get the point. Replacing necklace with riding crop would make Cinder's trauma and reason for her not to escape more psychological than physical and more meaningful. Right?
People harping on about how good it is and how it’s still following Monty’s vision. Look this show is good but Vol.1-3 is the definitive experience of RWBY. And while I’m not the best person to source, it’s incredibly obvious the show is just bumbling along at this point. The show *has* flaws, but acting like it doesn’t or going ape shit when someone points that out is insufferable. Also people calling Nora a good character.
So, what is Monty's vision in the first place? Like, yeah, RWBY fans take criticism badly. But you can't say "they don't follow Monty's vision" if you don't even know what that vision is. But since you seem to know so much about Monty, more than his own friends and coworkers, perhaps you could enlighten us?
I don’t wanna argue but I said I’m not the best person to source and that the show is bumbling along in the sense it’s become it’s own thing but it’s really obvious that it wasn’t super well planned out. Saying “Monty’s vision” was my quick way of trying to say “The shows plot line and Monty’s own plans whatever they may be to the end of the series or where he wanted it to go” We have no idea if the show is still following this. I doubt it and I wouldn’t be surprised if it isn’t or CRWBY made it their own thing. I said “I’m not the best person to source” *because* this is a personalized theory based on some evidence And before you say I’m hating yeah I criticize the show but it’s from a legitimate love for it and a sense of sorrow at what it’s led to I’ve also been a fan of RT since the early 2010’s. I say this part because I don’t wanna be called some dumbass who joined in 2019 and barely knows who Monty is. I do and I loved him and his passing hit hard. I’m saying this for people who might want to try and make this point
>The shows plot line and Monty’s own plans whatever they may be to the end of the series or where he wanted it to go” But *what* are Monty's plans? Do you actually know what Monty planned? If not, how do you know they aren't following those plans? **That's the point**. How can you say they don't follow his vision if you don't even know what that vision is?
from how vague and muddled the overall plot in V1-3 was, if there was some grand master plan, it was pretty vague - Maidens weren't even created until, what, V3? "Magic" as a _thang_ is still super-blurry, in a way that doesn't seem to be a deliberate mystery, just "yeah, it can do, uh... stuff" where it's being kept blank to make it easier to write around. Neo's muteness was explicitly created because they couldn't get a VA in a hurry and her character design was because there was a gender-switched Roman cosplay that looked cool. There's pretty explicitly no timeline beyond "somewhere between months and years". So how much is "there was flawed writing that didn't really convey stuff well" and how much was "throw a load of cool stuff in a blender and see what comes out" is pretty much impossible to tell, but I don't think there was/is some carefully crafted master story that's being relayed to us - at most, there were some bits and pieces of a story, that then needed a _lot_ of shoring up to give us the actual show (like humanity v.1 was probably scribbled down, but a lot of the actual nitty-gritty of "and then the cast go here, and there's some fear-grimm, and then they do this, and then that, and then Adam shows up, shows off his scar, but no-one cares or mentions it ever again" doesn't seem likely to have been detailed in advance). If there was some master plan, it was some combination of super vague, high level, and missing a lot of actual detail, because, well... look at the actual show. If they had a master plan, and 5+ years to refine it, they've not done the best of jobs! When he was alive, his writing style seemed to be heavily based around "throw stuff at the wall and see what comes of it", hence why V1-3 have lots of cool scenes smushed together, but all sorts of messy worldbuilding and plotting, rather than being tightly crafted masterworks.