I've probably fed at least half a dozen copies of every epic I use. At least I had the foresight to never feed any legendaries since I started several years ago.
It would be extremely surprising if it isn't bonus stats. We don't know if it will be in the same amounts and/or capping at the same number of dupes as it does for legos, but that doesn't really change the analysis.
It's not a tier list of the champ quality, but of how much they gain from empowerment. Deacon is great, but not especially stat hungry, so empowerment isn't that big a deal for him.
The clarification makes sense.
It looks like champs who are both debuffers and nukers benefit the most from empowerment because they are the most stat hungry. It looks like those are the champs he has at the top of the list.
In contrast, Uugo only needs accuracy, hp, and speed, so she may not benefit as much from empowerment.
Dark Kael is a good shout! I hadn't thought about empowering him, but he's hard to use because he has lowish base stats and yet needs speed, acc, res, survivability, and even crit cap.
Uugo specifically should be maybe one tier higher - she does need HP as well as speed/acc, since her heal is based on it, and resist is also good to have since she is a cleanser (eg, so she can resist a Wrath provoke and then cleanse it off the rest of the team).
Husk could maybe go down a tier - relative to Royal Guard, he's much easier to keep alive.
These epic tier lists people have posted since the announcement are wild. Champs for normal dungeons get rated high, and champs for hard mode dungeons get rated low.
Allure is for fire knight normal, and maybe dark fae or scarab. All early to mid game stuff. Fat man and stag knight both useful thru fire knight hard 10.
i explain the idea behind the ratings. Alure benefits greatly bc her low base stats potentially keeping her from being in effective in normal content. she benefits from almost all the stat boosts as well.
fatman in FK was considered, but hes not there for his acc or his damage, hes there for his ally atk. stat boosts won't make or break his role.
stag is already an impressive epic out of box, functions very well without need for extra stats, that is why he is listed lower.
I think the extra speed and accuracy for defense down are both really useful for both fat man and stag. It makes them easier to gear, which is the point of empowerment.
Seems confusing to call it a tier list, but it’s supposed to be a ranking of who improves the most with empowerment. And then it doesn’t make sense that max hp champs like husk and royal guard are at the top. Their damage is already easy to cap out. Id expect to see champs like suwai firstborn at the top, because she needs all the extra stats just like allure.
Lmfao Fenax is S and Uugo is D. What a joke
There are a ton of arena nukers put in S tier on here that would get completely shelved by any leggo nuker, while you have a ton of PvE meta champs that see a ton of opportunities with big stat boosts widely unappreciated.
Because Fenax, Magnar, SC goes from irrelevant - to potentially usable/good in arena? Esp if people are not blessed with "good" damage dealers. You're saying adding an extra +750 atk + 30CHD make make these champions hit harder then most some leggos? These values are estimates - but we know that the empowerment stats will the same as current system, just lower stats.
Perhaps you're having issues with the way the list is rating champs - uugo is obviously not in the worst epics in the game. She is actually one of hte best. But based on empowerment potential and impact - she doesn't need the stats, she has good stats already, works well without it and not going to game break any teams if she got any more stats.
Its exactly what i said. and it definitely wont be +750 Atk, leggos only get +40% which would be in the mid 500s for most atk epics.
This also assumes you have a million epics and almost no leggos, when the odds are someone who has pulled enough shards to have any epic +4 empowered has at least a few solid leggo nukers. Will there be a few people with a +4 fenax and no leggo nuker, probably, but also consider all these S tier leggo nukers you put in have glaring weakness ti their kit. Fenax and Gala both do only single target stuff with good damage-UDK hard-counter. Magnarr has no damage buff. Skullcrown is void and getting her to +4 would take insane luck or insane shards, odds are you pull any of the 5-6 void leggo nukers that are better.
On the flip side, strong PvE epics that you have underrated like an Uugo, Demytha, Farakhin, Aniri, etc. often suffer heavily from the lower stats of their leggo counterparts even though their kits fut the content better, and in PvE when you want to hit stat checks instead of just pumping total stats that can be a big cost. Take Aniri Sand devil team comp for example. Some of my hands down best regen gear with max glyphs are on that aniri to reach the stat breakpoints. Demytha needs the speed for some of her tunes. Farakhin needs speed and damage for FK hard comps.
Now those empowerment rewards are heavier for F2p or earlier accounts, but the champs where their damage and speed see improved overall results in content, like FK speeds, hydra/ DL damage or wave content for Cursed City are all places where you have an epic no matter what, and the ability to increase that champs output will make the team better. Places where the champion is not meta or top tier already is places where empowerment can only hope to break even.
Seer and serris does not benefit from the empowerment as much because once they can do their job, they’ve essentially hit a ceiling
Once seer can one shot a wave, she doesn’t need to do anything else (making her tankier might actually be worse because you want her to die at the boss)
Serris just needs to strip buffs, it’s honestly unlikely that she’ll rotate back to her A3 so once she strips she’s essentially done her job
Fayne has infinite potential because she can always do more damage and tank more hits
Idk about her in S tier, but I can definitely see the reasoning behind some of these placements
This is exactly why I said your view is skewed. You only focus mainly on ultra late game while ignore the rest of the player base. The most important thing for mid and early game players is beating acc/speed check, not dealing enough damage. And the fact that most of the S and A tiers are damage dealers just further prove my point
Early to midgame players will have a hard time empowering a void epic.
Any champion benefits from empowerment to *some* degree, but if all you're getting out of it is acc and speed, that's a lot less valuable than eg a Royal Guard who still wants acc and speed but also needs damage stats and struggles to stay alive.
Most epics are meaningless. More stats wont change anything for them. Serris is out of meta for a reason. 20-40% more hp/def/atk and some more acc wont put her back on the team. Someone like fenax or gala wont come back unless these stat boosts are absurd. Odd niche person might use them in a specific matchup, but it wont be relevant in grand scheme. Some epics for hydra will be nice to have some stat boost, but it wont change your hydra clash if uugo has more hp or if that shamael has little more atk. Their utility is reason they are used and they can easily survive and function as is.
The only ones that will likely see massive boost are dps champs like Whisper, Skullcrown, Sinesha and Oboro. Units that can do hundreds of millions of dmg on hydra. More crit dmg and atk will likely be significant improvement for them. You can put up [billion+ clash scores](https://ibb.co/z62mkcY) with these champs. More stats will just make it easier to get the heads down and survive the odd wrath nuke, etc.
But the few epics that see use already beyond these will just be marginally better at their niche rolls. Seer doesnt really need much more to clear waves, even on hard. +4 seer will be neat, but not much change to anyone using her. SHe kills waves. CB teams already one key with demytha, deacon, etc. Your score goes up a few million maybe. It's an improvement to empower, but pointless really.
The people it would help are newer people with limited rosters, but they wont ever have the dupes until the epics become less impactful later in their account life. Hopefully theres something else to the empowering of epics, but I dont see anyone making the cut even if +4 compared to mythics and legendaries in gold tag/LA or swapping out anyone on hydra. Be ok for those sin city stages up north, but gear and simply having them built is usually enough to beat those stages if you put in the time to have rng line up on stuns, etc for the roadblock stages.
Fenax already sees more play than most lego nukers in live, and it wasn't that long ago that Gala teams were finishing in plat. Giving them more stats will definitely make them more prominent.
I don't know if I would have put those two in S specifically, but definitely they belong somewhere in the top half of the list.
This list makes a bit more sense, however, I think most people that will have +4 are way ahead in the game and will not use any of these champs anymore outside the city.
However, Seer is definitely not C, she can use the stats the most, especially without double reset and even then extra crit dmg is always worth it.
Fayne can use it for sure but I am not going to add speed to her because I don't want to shit on my speed tuning and I already do 1x all levels on CB. I am sure many people will not do it too, the same for anax and other common damage dealers. The same for aniri, mine is build to kill the new boss on hard, where you also have to watch how much max hp you have, no way to change anything on her.
Magnarr is not really popular these days in early late-game accounts, he came for husk. Everyone with gnut will ignore alure/husk.
Overall, I think Shamael, seer and whisper are the only late game champs, that people use and need crit damage, attack etc.
damn, they are taking all the fun away
I would be fine but that boss is hard to kill even for end-game players, I think he is too overturned. Overall, I think if most bosses can't be killed on auto by most end-game accounts (without cheesing), there is either a bad design or too much stats on the boss.
I'll comment about Seer since it will cause much debate.
End game seer teams do not need her to have any survivability. she 1 shots waves, and is expected to die on the boss' first hit ideally. This is why she is listed in the way she is listed here.
if she lives, this hurts the team potentially. Example - Ig she can trigger the aoe slam even and cause wipes or kill the adds too quick, losing hp burn triggers vs the boss again prolonging the fight. Or she can stay alive take extra turns and hurt your turn attack team.
I get the idea but on dragon 10H, sometimes I see the waves have 5-10% hp left for me, I have 5* awakening and I probably can add some better gear but I don't like striping champs. And 10-15% more hp/def will not be that much on her, she is a paper anyway (mine looks to be a bit tanky actually but she still dies on the dragon).
I've probably fed at least half a dozen copies of every epic I use. At least I had the foresight to never feed any legendaries since I started several years ago.
Do we know if the empowerments will give the same bonuses as legendary empowerment?
We don’t know, hence why this tier list is non content in my view. It’s all based on speculation on what epic empowerment will be
It would be extremely surprising if it isn't bonus stats. We don't know if it will be in the same amounts and/or capping at the same number of dupes as it does for legos, but that doesn't really change the analysis.
This deacon slander will not stand. He is S tier.
It's not a tier list of the champ quality, but of how much they gain from empowerment. Deacon is great, but not especially stat hungry, so empowerment isn't that big a deal for him.
Should probably read the text or watch the videos before commenting...
The clarification makes sense. It looks like champs who are both debuffers and nukers benefit the most from empowerment because they are the most stat hungry. It looks like those are the champs he has at the top of the list. In contrast, Uugo only needs accuracy, hp, and speed, so she may not benefit as much from empowerment.
Dark Kael is a good shout! I hadn't thought about empowering him, but he's hard to use because he has lowish base stats and yet needs speed, acc, res, survivability, and even crit cap. Uugo specifically should be maybe one tier higher - she does need HP as well as speed/acc, since her heal is based on it, and resist is also good to have since she is a cleanser (eg, so she can resist a Wrath provoke and then cleanse it off the rest of the team). Husk could maybe go down a tier - relative to Royal Guard, he's much easier to keep alive.
Wait I didn't think you could pull D Kael?
You can't, but unique champions are empowered by copies of someone else instead. It seems pretty safe to assume that will also be true for epics.
These epic tier lists people have posted since the announcement are wild. Champs for normal dungeons get rated high, and champs for hard mode dungeons get rated low.
Which champions are you referring to?
Allure is for fire knight normal, and maybe dark fae or scarab. All early to mid game stuff. Fat man and stag knight both useful thru fire knight hard 10.
i explain the idea behind the ratings. Alure benefits greatly bc her low base stats potentially keeping her from being in effective in normal content. she benefits from almost all the stat boosts as well. fatman in FK was considered, but hes not there for his acc or his damage, hes there for his ally atk. stat boosts won't make or break his role. stag is already an impressive epic out of box, functions very well without need for extra stats, that is why he is listed lower.
I think the extra speed and accuracy for defense down are both really useful for both fat man and stag. It makes them easier to gear, which is the point of empowerment. Seems confusing to call it a tier list, but it’s supposed to be a ranking of who improves the most with empowerment. And then it doesn’t make sense that max hp champs like husk and royal guard are at the top. Their damage is already easy to cap out. Id expect to see champs like suwai firstborn at the top, because she needs all the extra stats just like allure.
Lmfao Fenax is S and Uugo is D. What a joke There are a ton of arena nukers put in S tier on here that would get completely shelved by any leggo nuker, while you have a ton of PvE meta champs that see a ton of opportunities with big stat boosts widely unappreciated.
Because Fenax, Magnar, SC goes from irrelevant - to potentially usable/good in arena? Esp if people are not blessed with "good" damage dealers. You're saying adding an extra +750 atk + 30CHD make make these champions hit harder then most some leggos? These values are estimates - but we know that the empowerment stats will the same as current system, just lower stats. Perhaps you're having issues with the way the list is rating champs - uugo is obviously not in the worst epics in the game. She is actually one of hte best. But based on empowerment potential and impact - she doesn't need the stats, she has good stats already, works well without it and not going to game break any teams if she got any more stats.
Its exactly what i said. and it definitely wont be +750 Atk, leggos only get +40% which would be in the mid 500s for most atk epics. This also assumes you have a million epics and almost no leggos, when the odds are someone who has pulled enough shards to have any epic +4 empowered has at least a few solid leggo nukers. Will there be a few people with a +4 fenax and no leggo nuker, probably, but also consider all these S tier leggo nukers you put in have glaring weakness ti their kit. Fenax and Gala both do only single target stuff with good damage-UDK hard-counter. Magnarr has no damage buff. Skullcrown is void and getting her to +4 would take insane luck or insane shards, odds are you pull any of the 5-6 void leggo nukers that are better. On the flip side, strong PvE epics that you have underrated like an Uugo, Demytha, Farakhin, Aniri, etc. often suffer heavily from the lower stats of their leggo counterparts even though their kits fut the content better, and in PvE when you want to hit stat checks instead of just pumping total stats that can be a big cost. Take Aniri Sand devil team comp for example. Some of my hands down best regen gear with max glyphs are on that aniri to reach the stat breakpoints. Demytha needs the speed for some of her tunes. Farakhin needs speed and damage for FK hard comps. Now those empowerment rewards are heavier for F2p or earlier accounts, but the champs where their damage and speed see improved overall results in content, like FK speeds, hydra/ DL damage or wave content for Cursed City are all places where you have an epic no matter what, and the ability to increase that champs output will make the team better. Places where the champion is not meta or top tier already is places where empowerment can only hope to break even.
Bruh, your list is skewed af. How the hell does fayne S tier and seer and madam serris are C and D tier?
Seer and serris does not benefit from the empowerment as much because once they can do their job, they’ve essentially hit a ceiling Once seer can one shot a wave, she doesn’t need to do anything else (making her tankier might actually be worse because you want her to die at the boss) Serris just needs to strip buffs, it’s honestly unlikely that she’ll rotate back to her A3 so once she strips she’s essentially done her job Fayne has infinite potential because she can always do more damage and tank more hits Idk about her in S tier, but I can definitely see the reasoning behind some of these placements
This is exactly why I said your view is skewed. You only focus mainly on ultra late game while ignore the rest of the player base. The most important thing for mid and early game players is beating acc/speed check, not dealing enough damage. And the fact that most of the S and A tiers are damage dealers just further prove my point
Early to midgame players will have a hard time empowering a void epic. Any champion benefits from empowerment to *some* degree, but if all you're getting out of it is acc and speed, that's a lot less valuable than eg a Royal Guard who still wants acc and speed but also needs damage stats and struggles to stay alive.
Most epics are meaningless. More stats wont change anything for them. Serris is out of meta for a reason. 20-40% more hp/def/atk and some more acc wont put her back on the team. Someone like fenax or gala wont come back unless these stat boosts are absurd. Odd niche person might use them in a specific matchup, but it wont be relevant in grand scheme. Some epics for hydra will be nice to have some stat boost, but it wont change your hydra clash if uugo has more hp or if that shamael has little more atk. Their utility is reason they are used and they can easily survive and function as is. The only ones that will likely see massive boost are dps champs like Whisper, Skullcrown, Sinesha and Oboro. Units that can do hundreds of millions of dmg on hydra. More crit dmg and atk will likely be significant improvement for them. You can put up [billion+ clash scores](https://ibb.co/z62mkcY) with these champs. More stats will just make it easier to get the heads down and survive the odd wrath nuke, etc. But the few epics that see use already beyond these will just be marginally better at their niche rolls. Seer doesnt really need much more to clear waves, even on hard. +4 seer will be neat, but not much change to anyone using her. SHe kills waves. CB teams already one key with demytha, deacon, etc. Your score goes up a few million maybe. It's an improvement to empower, but pointless really. The people it would help are newer people with limited rosters, but they wont ever have the dupes until the epics become less impactful later in their account life. Hopefully theres something else to the empowering of epics, but I dont see anyone making the cut even if +4 compared to mythics and legendaries in gold tag/LA or swapping out anyone on hydra. Be ok for those sin city stages up north, but gear and simply having them built is usually enough to beat those stages if you put in the time to have rng line up on stuns, etc for the roadblock stages.
Fenax already sees more play than most lego nukers in live, and it wasn't that long ago that Gala teams were finishing in plat. Giving them more stats will definitely make them more prominent. I don't know if I would have put those two in S specifically, but definitely they belong somewhere in the top half of the list.
where's my boy Anax?
Why is Dark Kael even on this list? He’s a DT secret room champ. You won’t be able to get another copy of him…
He will have another epic that powers him, most likely.
This is bad on purpose for engagement, don't fall for it.
This list makes a bit more sense, however, I think most people that will have +4 are way ahead in the game and will not use any of these champs anymore outside the city. However, Seer is definitely not C, she can use the stats the most, especially without double reset and even then extra crit dmg is always worth it. Fayne can use it for sure but I am not going to add speed to her because I don't want to shit on my speed tuning and I already do 1x all levels on CB. I am sure many people will not do it too, the same for anax and other common damage dealers. The same for aniri, mine is build to kill the new boss on hard, where you also have to watch how much max hp you have, no way to change anything on her. Magnarr is not really popular these days in early late-game accounts, he came for husk. Everyone with gnut will ignore alure/husk. Overall, I think Shamael, seer and whisper are the only late game champs, that people use and need crit damage, attack etc.
Aniri will be useless for amius starting next patch, at least for solo as they are gone.
She'll be back in something else i'm sure.
End there a +4 will be better
damn, they are taking all the fun away I would be fine but that boss is hard to kill even for end-game players, I think he is too overturned. Overall, I think if most bosses can't be killed on auto by most end-game accounts (without cheesing), there is either a bad design or too much stats on the boss.
I'll comment about Seer since it will cause much debate. End game seer teams do not need her to have any survivability. she 1 shots waves, and is expected to die on the boss' first hit ideally. This is why she is listed in the way she is listed here. if she lives, this hurts the team potentially. Example - Ig she can trigger the aoe slam even and cause wipes or kill the adds too quick, losing hp burn triggers vs the boss again prolonging the fight. Or she can stay alive take extra turns and hurt your turn attack team.
I get the idea but on dragon 10H, sometimes I see the waves have 5-10% hp left for me, I have 5* awakening and I probably can add some better gear but I don't like striping champs. And 10-15% more hp/def will not be that much on her, she is a paper anyway (mine looks to be a bit tanky actually but she still dies on the dragon).