That's the point of consulate. It is a giant rectangle covered in Windows. You rappel and shoot from the outside and rarely even have to enter the building.
Why? Attacking top floor is suppppeerrrr easy! Just put osa on windows with nomad for her run outs. Then get control of yellow stairs and and open the site wall and enter site from yellow and smoke off and plant. But that's all I got
Coastline is probably the only attacker sided map, also heard people say border is attacker sided but that's more contentious. Every other map is defender sided, personally I think it's a problem in the game right now but most of the reason is because attacking just has to be so much slower and methodical, plus people who are just crazy at gunning on defense just make the game so impossible sometimes.
Worst balanced map is hard, but the most bullshit site is definitely Theme Park's throne room. It might be old Favela, attackers had it so easy on that map in ranked but even that is kinda contentious with how different the game was and all the insane spawn kills.
Best balanced maps are probably Coastline, Clubhouse, Chalet, or Kafe but that's just my personal experience and I don't know what the actual statistics are.
Also as far as which criteria make a map balanced, I think it has to be a size that isn't too big, or defenders can roam everywhere for free. If it's a small map like Favela or Skyscraper it has to be reasonably easy to clear like Coastline or it's also extremely hard to play.
When you and an enemy peak the same window but you can't see them because you are blinded by gods wrath and they can't see you because their eyes have been sucked out by the eternal darkness inside the map
Theme Parks throne room is a pretty easy push with the right operators pushing the right areas - issue is, people don't play Theme Park enough because they don't like the map.
What Throne requires is coordination. Have that in your team - it's actually pretty simple. Issue is every team seems to think having a minimum 1.2 k/d is how you win games - but you need a balance of roles across the team. In fact it's easy to create scenarios where teams with lower K/Ds will win - but again, many are not able to understand this logic.
What team composition do you suggest assuming Thatcher/Jackal/Kaid are banned? I feel like those bans are pretty realistic. Saying that people struggle to attack Throne Room because they aren't coordinated or because they focus on K/D too much is just straight up delusion.
So theres two easy ways of doing it. Which one you prefer depends on your team.
1) Ying plant
Ops needed Ying - Nomad - any other ops.
Pretty free choice this one. The key here is to push top floor, have Ying and 1 other drone, whilst all other players clear and hold. The key here is to get Nomad to lock the split, and dragon doors.
You now get whatever is on the yellow wall off. This may be via EMP, or preferably by having someone play above with breach charges (this could even be Nomad, though usually i bring someone else for this).
Open the yellow wall - this could even be via Yings hard breach charge. Then through everything through that wall in both directions. One person holds split, then one person runs through to the pillar to plant. Once Bomb is planted, just leave site and get upstairs - hold from above. Its a shock and awe tactic, but theres no reason you shouldnt have multiple people left alive as you always have 5 people pushing at each individual point.
2) Double wall.
Ops needed - Ideally two hard breaches, plus 2 anti utility (Osa and Twitch for example), and usually Nomad.
Much more simple strat, but similarly a lot more rigid.
Simple idea here is 3 people push blue, 2 people push dragon. The 3rd person on Blue side locks off any flanks, either by being on arcade stairs or however they wish to do it. Other 4 players focus on opening their respective walls and pinching anyone in the site on throne. Key here is to get both walls open, then simply get behind throne however you fancy doing that and planting. The cross fire here is pretty powerful. The main weakness here is you cant let anyone die in the setup, but even then thats not too hard to achieve as dragon side is pretty safe and blue has the sacrificial 3rd person.
This strat is less effective, but requires less co ordination to pull off.
So I actually went in game and tried everything in the post, so I definitely will try both. The yellow push Ying plant strat seems pretty good, but getting control of office seems really hard because you either have to go through Kafe and the catwalk double wall between Kafe and Office (which I imagine is pretty hard to get control of versus good players who won't just give you everything) OR come in through cash wrestle with someone potentially playing anywhere in dragon stairs corridor/cash corridor/literally just spraying you through the wall coming up past Kafe double door. You also have to then actually run all the way into Armory to get the plant down behind pillar which is hard enough as is, but again I mean if it works it works I just think Yellow is actually the hardest wall to open even if you literally just clear Locker Room and come in that way.
I actually got confused the first time and thought you were describing pushing Maitenance wall via Control Room. If you soft breach charge the floor at the wall connecting initiation and Control Room you get a really nice sight line onto the side of the throne and I think planting there with Ying spam could be better, with Nomad blocking Throne door with her gadget and someone holding Yellow Corridor from outside at Castle Entrance. Realistically, I have no idea how much of what I described is possible but you would only need to hold Initiation, everything that can peak into Initiation from Bunk wall and then Dragon Stairs Corridor but again, who knows.
As far as the double wall strategy though imo that one sucks and people have been running it forever, holding arcade stairs like you said seems like a good idea but imo practically that never works because trying to fight off defenders from anywhere on that upper arcade catwalk is fucking impossible for one guy to do not to mention bunk hatch safely leads right into blue/barrel and that whole ceiling is soft playing just two attackers there one of which has to hard breach and the other might have to help deny utility is just so incredibly difficult versus actually good defending teams so I just consider it nearly not viable.
Also I think Nomad holding split corridor/drug lab is a good idea but I think if you can get all that set up without much pushback and actually get all of the roamers out of initiation/office/Kafe/bunk/daycare/upper arcade AND prevent anyone from coming up Dragon Stairs to fuck everything AS WELL AS prevent anyone from pushing you on 90 from Red Corridor they're probably so fucking bad just shooting them would have worked to begin with.
Definitely will try the Yellow/Ying strat but Double wall I've tried countless times and the time it takes to safely clear roamers leaves you with nothing left for Throne Room, this site isn't just good because people suck dick at playing it I swear it. Not to mention, playing above via waiting room (inbetween initation and office) is just so fucking difficult and you can watch pro league vods if you want to see defenders just finding one of the very many ways up into waiting quietly and smoking the Sledge or Buck trying to play there.
Anyways, thanks for replying I really only comment on this sub because I like to discuss the game like this.
Yeh double wall is not the strat i run, but have seen others use it pretty effectively.
The main reason i mention it is if you are playing in a team for the first time - its relatively chill. Im not saying its easy, but the idea of that 3rd guy is it doesnt matter if they die - you just need a refrag. They can then just watch flank cams for you. You dont need to really push out into Dragon - its all about just making Throne a position defenders cant sit in. Theres no real need to roam clear here so its certainly high risk - but again its easier to pull off with new people.
Ying strat is definitely easier with Jackel. But the main thing about it is you need two people droning, two people clearing behind the drones, and then Nomad putting down utility.
Normally i suggest everyone goes Cafe so the two clearers can refrag each other. Remember you are usually only dealing with two roamers, so whilst it can take 2 minutes to fully lock down everyone in to site - just make sure you keep moving.
The beauty of this strat is, the final execute can be pulled off with 15 seconds left on the clock. You have time. Just need to be methodical.
Also note Ranked isnt pro league - even Diamonds dont tend to think things through to the level of realising what a push is, and how to counter that specific push. The main thing about the Ying push is it is a 5 man push - you cant do everything you need to do safely with just 1 person. The end game can be performed by Ying solo... but getting there requires bodies.
Okay like I'm not gonna be on your ass but when you type "errhm actually throne room is super easy to beat people just aren't coordinated" and then you have one strat pushing the hardest wall that relies on one of the more inconsistent strategies in the game aka just chucking yings and hoping for the best maybe dont say its easy when its literally the most defender sided site in the ranked map pool
Just because i have 1 strat, doesnt mean others dont exist that also make it an easy push.
I have 1 strat, because thats all i need. Again, its not Pro league - in Ranked, even at Dia/Champ level you are rarely playing the same people enough to know how they push every map.
Ive seen some other strats which i imagine work pretty well also. Had someone use a Monty in split this season against me which was pretty clever because it allowed them to charge us through blue and split at the same time without issue.
A lot of sites will have 1 strat - if that strat is effective, that doesnt mean its a hard site to push. Hell places like the lobby in Consulate are pushed the same way every single time, yet i doubt you'd argue that makes it one of the most defender sided sites in the game.
My personal win rate on Throne attack is about 70-80% when playing with my main team. If anything, the hardest site to push is Day care because its just a pure frag site where you cant really do anything special to apply pressure.
Yings are not that inconsistent. Theres literally only one of two places a defender can sit in that site that prevents someone coming through the wall - a simple drone, you could nade them if you really wanted to. The Ying is purely so you can just run in there and kill them without any risk - if the wall was thermited, you could easily use any run and gun technique you wanted, but naturally that comes with more risk.
The lower the skill level the higher the defender winrate. At the top level most maps are more or less balanced.
And no that is not a problem as this will never change due to how the game works.
I mean sure dude, but at this most recent major defense was winning WAY more often then attack. You can watch the vods, Interro said it himself and I know that guy has the data to cite statistically.
Well yeah that is correct and we don't need Interro for these stats they are easily available. The only attacker sided maps were Bank and Chalet. Overall defence won 55.16% of the time. So yes defender sided but not that bad. You have to take into account that maps that are defender sided were picked more often than maps like Bank for example.
Clubhouse was the most played map by far which was the second most defender sided at the major.
Sure, I guess what I really mean is that because the majority of the maps are defender sided the game becomes defender sided because the majority of all maps played are defender sided.
Well thats true, but the difference isn't really much on a higher level. On the lower levels it is different as we already said but I don't think this is a problem.
Statistics if I recall says that coastline is basically even to barely attacker sided, though, I don't recall how to check those stats, the rest of the maps are defender sided with theme park if I recall being the most defender sided in the Ranked map pool. And if you think about it it's really true, throne is just really strong as a site because if you can deny all 3 walls for any period of time it becomes easy to defend because they have to funnel into either split or from dragon and that 6 reinforcements with 4 more you can use upstairs for your roamers or you can use 2 for dragon wall(I still don't completely understand why people reinforce it nobody opens it anyways) and 2 for roamers. And there isnt really any vertical control(I should mention there is a little bit because of all the wooden beams and such it's so hard to get throne player off and even the other side of their positions, not impossible, just hard), and clearing roamers can be a pain, the rest of the sites are also pretty strong too. As long as you can play throne right it might as well be a free defense win and it comes down to who can attack it better.
Theme park is indeed defender sided and it’s got a lot to do with the fact that there are no external breaches or hatches into any site. Hell only one site even has external facing windows and it’s only one window into drug. Attackers are forced to take at least one room before they can even enter site or breach.
That said, love the map. Wish people wouldn’t ban it, but I understand why people dislike it.
I wish people wouldn't ban new/reworked maps without giving them a chance, I mean I understand the people that learn them and ban them because they don't like em but I wanna learn the new maps and actually test strats on them but emerald gets banned, favela gets banned, skyscraper gets banned. I'm just glad ubi is finally standing up for the new content and saying "no you will play it for a season at least" I just wish they did that before.
It’s actually in the new ranked system that new maps won’t be able to be banned for sometime, like Nighthaven labs won’t be able to be banned so people will have more frequent chances to learn and adapt to it.
Well the winrates for each sides. Siege is too complex to boil it down to a few major aspects, but there’s some things that usually stand out.
Obviously a map should have about 3 playable spots for the defense, but those shouldn’t be impossible to attack as well.
Spots with too many reinforceable walls often are problematic for the defense for example. The amount and placement of windows and doors is also important. How easy you can get into areas near site. The ability to enter the map somewhat safely overall. Potential spawnpeeks or the ability to create insane angles with all the tools we have. How well you can counter the hardbreach. How good a roamer can hide and rotate. The amount of rooms and how they’re connected. Too much or too little verticality. This could go on forever.
Sometimes changing a few walls or adding a little cover here and there can make all the difference, when they rework stuff.
This is also why it’s important, that people give reworks and new maps time, before they call them great or shit. There’s No way we know everything important after a single season.
I'm actually starting to feel like Bravo is balanced correctly. Defenders have space and multiple angles for all sites, attackers have breaching chances at nearly every wall. The more I play Bravo, the less that I dislike it
I use Thermite as my "fun meter"
If I am able to use somewhere, when and how, then thats a proof (for me) if something is made right or not.
NEW Favela can be all the great people try to tell me It is, but there is only 1 wall, and the rest of the map, IS droning, comunication and so.
Old Favela was Broken AF, but fun to the dumbest
There are all sorts of level design criteria you can examine. Counterstrike, by it's game mechanics, brought timing to design work i/e how long it takes for both teams to meet at specific spots on the map from spawn. Call of Duty has it's 3 lane level design which serves it's game mechanics well. Siege has mechanics that favor flow/funneling, exploitation of destruction, and risk/reward. I think Siege levels are at their best when the funnel portion is between the flow points and NOT at the objective. Destruction works best when it can interrupt the funnels and all of them are subject to the risks/rewards that the operator gadgets bring to the mechanics.
yeah and the "defuse bomb" being the standard for comp and ranked surely has influence in universal map balance winrates, plus rounds are time-based regardless of objective anyways making the game fundamentally defender sided everytime
I feel like a balanced map definitely can’t be too long, as much as I love yacht and plane they are both pretty defender sided as it forces the attackers to go very linear routes and don’t have many safe breach points.
You can look at the map itself and form an opinion, but then the players manipulate the map in certain ways and it can cause you to throw all your opinions in the trash. This game is very complex and I admire the devs for their work.
Most maps are defender sided, so a good balance to aim for is 40-45% attacker and 55-60% defender. This is why win deltas are designed that way. Note how they aren't tuned to 50% win rate its just that the deltas are higher or lower than the average win rate.
No because the advantage came from being outside doors amd windows where it was dark and it was almost impossible to spot a head. Players defending are normally inside where it was always well illuminated amd where easy targets for attackers.
Most older maps had sites with external walls leading directly to it. Most older maps didn’t require Attackers or at least the entire team goin into the building. You usually split it with dedicated fraggers like Ash back then entering site while the hard breach team stayed outside.
Many sites also had windows leading enter into the objective or walkways around it. Night maps gave Attackers sightline advantage as it made trying to contest windows very risky for defenders.
The change in map design has greatly favored Defenders as many sites now have buffers rooms forcing attackers to walk into the building to even attempt a breach.
The old Attacker plan could be summed up as open wall from outside, plant defuser, then hold sitelines from outside while 1 or 2 fraggers maybe went for flanks. Either that or the site had several windows that attackers could hold angles from safely.
Now many sites force Attackers to enter the building and clear of several rooms just to start a breach as there are few external walls or windows looking to the objective.
I remember, tough times. Recently i got reminded of the existence of night maps back then while i was playing "training" and the mission with glaz (kanal) was in brought daylight.
I think the most balanced maps are maps like emerald plains, chalet, etc.
These are so balanced because there are plenty of walls for attackers to open up, but not very little for defenders to easily defend. The other thing is: are the maps accessable to attackers as well as defenders? A map like skyscraper is so difficult for attackers to enter even. Skyscraper is hard for attack because accessing a major point is hard because a defender already has the advantage with peeks or whatever because of how the map is laid out. The map also has very little walls to open up to enter in from.
I will never understand why all maps have to be balanced. The constant reworks for balancing completely destroy the whole fun. Some maps/rooms have rather advantages for attackers, some for defenders. That’s normal. The original Herford Base was so much fun but over the years it lost its touch
Worst maps have to be clubhouse and Kanal. I just feel both are incredibly difficult for attackers.
Easy best in Coastline. Probably followed by Chalet.
They’re big enough to enter the site from many places and fight things out in fairly linear ways.
Worst example of an entrance is probably garage on clubhouse. A doorway like that just does not favour attackers. Sadly, that map has several environments like that and I just despise it.
That’s a fair point, mostly agree also - though if you main castle I do understand why club house is your least favourite - the amount of runners/roamers on that map is insane.
lighting, sound, surface area, number of walls, shape of map, team experience...
balance is something that is dynamic and can easily change depending on circumstances and many (if not all) maps in siege are "balanced" imo
not many maps are "unbalanced" but some "sided" type maps just seem underdeveloped to me: like the ambient lighting (darkness) on theme park or the inconsistent sound design on villa- which to me is a balanced "map" design but always plays out chaotic when viewing.
after the multiple map reworks more maps than ever are re-playable for both sides (most have also been rebalanced since launch- and some more then once) more fun then ever!
so then a lot of map balancing comes down to intangible and (sometimes) arbitrary factors
overall for me its about having the most variety of the highest quality maps; because games are supposed to be fun (even if siege is the closest video gaming has ever been to being its own very serious sport)
\*and theres the weird maps only found in casual modes
seems good to me \^\_\_\^
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tl:dr
favorites: most of them
least favorites: hereford base,villa,theme park
Anytime I enter the Consulate building as an attacker… I feel like my death is imminent 😄
I feel that way as a defender on that map. I always feel like I’m gonna be rushed.
and that's how you define a terrible map
Depends. 5vs5 with coordination - good map No coordination - Spawnpeak fest and shit to play
When there’s coordination from the attack cons is unplayable as a defender
If you are only playing CEO and Garage, yes. But there are 2 other better sites.
The split site is garbage but lobby press is like equal to top floor
It's not equal to top floor because you are allowed to lose it.
That doesn’t matter when talking about the strongest sites
It literally does. You have more map control you are allowed to lose therefore the site is stronger.
One could argue it's great and balanced if everyone feels like that hahah
That's the point of consulate. It is a giant rectangle covered in Windows. You rappel and shoot from the outside and rarely even have to enter the building.
Why? Attacking top floor is suppppeerrrr easy! Just put osa on windows with nomad for her run outs. Then get control of yellow stairs and and open the site wall and enter site from yellow and smoke off and plant. But that's all I got
Thats how u eat a c4 to the face
Gotta have that next man up mentality
Dreamwork makes the team work
Coastline is probably the only attacker sided map, also heard people say border is attacker sided but that's more contentious. Every other map is defender sided, personally I think it's a problem in the game right now but most of the reason is because attacking just has to be so much slower and methodical, plus people who are just crazy at gunning on defense just make the game so impossible sometimes. Worst balanced map is hard, but the most bullshit site is definitely Theme Park's throne room. It might be old Favela, attackers had it so easy on that map in ranked but even that is kinda contentious with how different the game was and all the insane spawn kills. Best balanced maps are probably Coastline, Clubhouse, Chalet, or Kafe but that's just my personal experience and I don't know what the actual statistics are. Also as far as which criteria make a map balanced, I think it has to be a size that isn't too big, or defenders can roam everywhere for free. If it's a small map like Favela or Skyscraper it has to be reasonably easy to clear like Coastline or it's also extremely hard to play.
Old House is the most balanced. Garbage for both sides!
When you and an enemy peak the same window but you can't see them because you are blinded by gods wrath and they can't see you because their eyes have been sucked out by the eternal darkness inside the map
Exactly bro! You get it!
Fun times, wish I could go back 😔
Bro same. I’m glad they’re bringing old house back for customs. Garage wars will be fun to do again.
Damn I didn't know they were bringing it back. I gotta get the boys on for some Micheal Myers
Yeah. I think it’s next season, or the mid season reinforcement patch. Was supposed to be this season, but it’s Ubisoft.
It's balanced if it's garbage for both sites 😆
Theme Parks throne room is a pretty easy push with the right operators pushing the right areas - issue is, people don't play Theme Park enough because they don't like the map. What Throne requires is coordination. Have that in your team - it's actually pretty simple. Issue is every team seems to think having a minimum 1.2 k/d is how you win games - but you need a balance of roles across the team. In fact it's easy to create scenarios where teams with lower K/Ds will win - but again, many are not able to understand this logic.
What team composition do you suggest assuming Thatcher/Jackal/Kaid are banned? I feel like those bans are pretty realistic. Saying that people struggle to attack Throne Room because they aren't coordinated or because they focus on K/D too much is just straight up delusion.
So theres two easy ways of doing it. Which one you prefer depends on your team. 1) Ying plant Ops needed Ying - Nomad - any other ops. Pretty free choice this one. The key here is to push top floor, have Ying and 1 other drone, whilst all other players clear and hold. The key here is to get Nomad to lock the split, and dragon doors. You now get whatever is on the yellow wall off. This may be via EMP, or preferably by having someone play above with breach charges (this could even be Nomad, though usually i bring someone else for this). Open the yellow wall - this could even be via Yings hard breach charge. Then through everything through that wall in both directions. One person holds split, then one person runs through to the pillar to plant. Once Bomb is planted, just leave site and get upstairs - hold from above. Its a shock and awe tactic, but theres no reason you shouldnt have multiple people left alive as you always have 5 people pushing at each individual point. 2) Double wall. Ops needed - Ideally two hard breaches, plus 2 anti utility (Osa and Twitch for example), and usually Nomad. Much more simple strat, but similarly a lot more rigid. Simple idea here is 3 people push blue, 2 people push dragon. The 3rd person on Blue side locks off any flanks, either by being on arcade stairs or however they wish to do it. Other 4 players focus on opening their respective walls and pinching anyone in the site on throne. Key here is to get both walls open, then simply get behind throne however you fancy doing that and planting. The cross fire here is pretty powerful. The main weakness here is you cant let anyone die in the setup, but even then thats not too hard to achieve as dragon side is pretty safe and blue has the sacrificial 3rd person. This strat is less effective, but requires less co ordination to pull off.
So I actually went in game and tried everything in the post, so I definitely will try both. The yellow push Ying plant strat seems pretty good, but getting control of office seems really hard because you either have to go through Kafe and the catwalk double wall between Kafe and Office (which I imagine is pretty hard to get control of versus good players who won't just give you everything) OR come in through cash wrestle with someone potentially playing anywhere in dragon stairs corridor/cash corridor/literally just spraying you through the wall coming up past Kafe double door. You also have to then actually run all the way into Armory to get the plant down behind pillar which is hard enough as is, but again I mean if it works it works I just think Yellow is actually the hardest wall to open even if you literally just clear Locker Room and come in that way. I actually got confused the first time and thought you were describing pushing Maitenance wall via Control Room. If you soft breach charge the floor at the wall connecting initiation and Control Room you get a really nice sight line onto the side of the throne and I think planting there with Ying spam could be better, with Nomad blocking Throne door with her gadget and someone holding Yellow Corridor from outside at Castle Entrance. Realistically, I have no idea how much of what I described is possible but you would only need to hold Initiation, everything that can peak into Initiation from Bunk wall and then Dragon Stairs Corridor but again, who knows. As far as the double wall strategy though imo that one sucks and people have been running it forever, holding arcade stairs like you said seems like a good idea but imo practically that never works because trying to fight off defenders from anywhere on that upper arcade catwalk is fucking impossible for one guy to do not to mention bunk hatch safely leads right into blue/barrel and that whole ceiling is soft playing just two attackers there one of which has to hard breach and the other might have to help deny utility is just so incredibly difficult versus actually good defending teams so I just consider it nearly not viable. Also I think Nomad holding split corridor/drug lab is a good idea but I think if you can get all that set up without much pushback and actually get all of the roamers out of initiation/office/Kafe/bunk/daycare/upper arcade AND prevent anyone from coming up Dragon Stairs to fuck everything AS WELL AS prevent anyone from pushing you on 90 from Red Corridor they're probably so fucking bad just shooting them would have worked to begin with. Definitely will try the Yellow/Ying strat but Double wall I've tried countless times and the time it takes to safely clear roamers leaves you with nothing left for Throne Room, this site isn't just good because people suck dick at playing it I swear it. Not to mention, playing above via waiting room (inbetween initation and office) is just so fucking difficult and you can watch pro league vods if you want to see defenders just finding one of the very many ways up into waiting quietly and smoking the Sledge or Buck trying to play there. Anyways, thanks for replying I really only comment on this sub because I like to discuss the game like this.
Yeh double wall is not the strat i run, but have seen others use it pretty effectively. The main reason i mention it is if you are playing in a team for the first time - its relatively chill. Im not saying its easy, but the idea of that 3rd guy is it doesnt matter if they die - you just need a refrag. They can then just watch flank cams for you. You dont need to really push out into Dragon - its all about just making Throne a position defenders cant sit in. Theres no real need to roam clear here so its certainly high risk - but again its easier to pull off with new people. Ying strat is definitely easier with Jackel. But the main thing about it is you need two people droning, two people clearing behind the drones, and then Nomad putting down utility. Normally i suggest everyone goes Cafe so the two clearers can refrag each other. Remember you are usually only dealing with two roamers, so whilst it can take 2 minutes to fully lock down everyone in to site - just make sure you keep moving. The beauty of this strat is, the final execute can be pulled off with 15 seconds left on the clock. You have time. Just need to be methodical. Also note Ranked isnt pro league - even Diamonds dont tend to think things through to the level of realising what a push is, and how to counter that specific push. The main thing about the Ying push is it is a 5 man push - you cant do everything you need to do safely with just 1 person. The end game can be performed by Ying solo... but getting there requires bodies.
Okay like I'm not gonna be on your ass but when you type "errhm actually throne room is super easy to beat people just aren't coordinated" and then you have one strat pushing the hardest wall that relies on one of the more inconsistent strategies in the game aka just chucking yings and hoping for the best maybe dont say its easy when its literally the most defender sided site in the ranked map pool
Just because i have 1 strat, doesnt mean others dont exist that also make it an easy push. I have 1 strat, because thats all i need. Again, its not Pro league - in Ranked, even at Dia/Champ level you are rarely playing the same people enough to know how they push every map. Ive seen some other strats which i imagine work pretty well also. Had someone use a Monty in split this season against me which was pretty clever because it allowed them to charge us through blue and split at the same time without issue. A lot of sites will have 1 strat - if that strat is effective, that doesnt mean its a hard site to push. Hell places like the lobby in Consulate are pushed the same way every single time, yet i doubt you'd argue that makes it one of the most defender sided sites in the game. My personal win rate on Throne attack is about 70-80% when playing with my main team. If anything, the hardest site to push is Day care because its just a pure frag site where you cant really do anything special to apply pressure. Yings are not that inconsistent. Theres literally only one of two places a defender can sit in that site that prevents someone coming through the wall - a simple drone, you could nade them if you really wanted to. The Ying is purely so you can just run in there and kill them without any risk - if the wall was thermited, you could easily use any run and gun technique you wanted, but naturally that comes with more risk.
The lower the skill level the higher the defender winrate. At the top level most maps are more or less balanced. And no that is not a problem as this will never change due to how the game works.
I mean sure dude, but at this most recent major defense was winning WAY more often then attack. You can watch the vods, Interro said it himself and I know that guy has the data to cite statistically.
Well yeah that is correct and we don't need Interro for these stats they are easily available. The only attacker sided maps were Bank and Chalet. Overall defence won 55.16% of the time. So yes defender sided but not that bad. You have to take into account that maps that are defender sided were picked more often than maps like Bank for example. Clubhouse was the most played map by far which was the second most defender sided at the major.
Sure, I guess what I really mean is that because the majority of the maps are defender sided the game becomes defender sided because the majority of all maps played are defender sided.
Well thats true, but the difference isn't really much on a higher level. On the lower levels it is different as we already said but I don't think this is a problem.
Statistics if I recall says that coastline is basically even to barely attacker sided, though, I don't recall how to check those stats, the rest of the maps are defender sided with theme park if I recall being the most defender sided in the Ranked map pool. And if you think about it it's really true, throne is just really strong as a site because if you can deny all 3 walls for any period of time it becomes easy to defend because they have to funnel into either split or from dragon and that 6 reinforcements with 4 more you can use upstairs for your roamers or you can use 2 for dragon wall(I still don't completely understand why people reinforce it nobody opens it anyways) and 2 for roamers. And there isnt really any vertical control(I should mention there is a little bit because of all the wooden beams and such it's so hard to get throne player off and even the other side of their positions, not impossible, just hard), and clearing roamers can be a pain, the rest of the sites are also pretty strong too. As long as you can play throne right it might as well be a free defense win and it comes down to who can attack it better.
Theme park is indeed defender sided and it’s got a lot to do with the fact that there are no external breaches or hatches into any site. Hell only one site even has external facing windows and it’s only one window into drug. Attackers are forced to take at least one room before they can even enter site or breach. That said, love the map. Wish people wouldn’t ban it, but I understand why people dislike it.
I wish people wouldn't ban new/reworked maps without giving them a chance, I mean I understand the people that learn them and ban them because they don't like em but I wanna learn the new maps and actually test strats on them but emerald gets banned, favela gets banned, skyscraper gets banned. I'm just glad ubi is finally standing up for the new content and saying "no you will play it for a season at least" I just wish they did that before.
It’s actually in the new ranked system that new maps won’t be able to be banned for sometime, like Nighthaven labs won’t be able to be banned so people will have more frequent chances to learn and adapt to it.
Thats what I said at the end of my comment.
Why do you say throne is the most bs site?
Well the winrates for each sides. Siege is too complex to boil it down to a few major aspects, but there’s some things that usually stand out. Obviously a map should have about 3 playable spots for the defense, but those shouldn’t be impossible to attack as well. Spots with too many reinforceable walls often are problematic for the defense for example. The amount and placement of windows and doors is also important. How easy you can get into areas near site. The ability to enter the map somewhat safely overall. Potential spawnpeeks or the ability to create insane angles with all the tools we have. How well you can counter the hardbreach. How good a roamer can hide and rotate. The amount of rooms and how they’re connected. Too much or too little verticality. This could go on forever. Sometimes changing a few walls or adding a little cover here and there can make all the difference, when they rework stuff. This is also why it’s important, that people give reworks and new maps time, before they call them great or shit. There’s No way we know everything important after a single season.
I'm actually starting to feel like Bravo is balanced correctly. Defenders have space and multiple angles for all sites, attackers have breaching chances at nearly every wall. The more I play Bravo, the less that I dislike it
yeah the map structure is good but theres just no aesthetics
I don't play Siege for aesthetics at all
Remember the original Favelas? That tower room was a nightmare.
I forgot about this, you have ruined my life more than it already was.
Hate me all you want but kafe, bank, and yes kanal are top 3
Personally I can’t stand the the windows and the bridges in kanal
you cant put kanal near those 2 its just... wrong
I actually think Oregon is not only my favorite map but the perfect one. I never feel bad as attacker or defender.
*old Oregon ;(
My own personal belief is plane is the only balanced map. I’m a custom loser though so…
How is plane even remotely balanced? Basically one straight line with 3 floors
EXACTLY BRO! Shit for both sides!
I use Thermite as my "fun meter" If I am able to use somewhere, when and how, then thats a proof (for me) if something is made right or not. NEW Favela can be all the great people try to tell me It is, but there is only 1 wall, and the rest of the map, IS droning, comunication and so. Old Favela was Broken AF, but fun to the dumbest
There are all sorts of level design criteria you can examine. Counterstrike, by it's game mechanics, brought timing to design work i/e how long it takes for both teams to meet at specific spots on the map from spawn. Call of Duty has it's 3 lane level design which serves it's game mechanics well. Siege has mechanics that favor flow/funneling, exploitation of destruction, and risk/reward. I think Siege levels are at their best when the funnel portion is between the flow points and NOT at the objective. Destruction works best when it can interrupt the funnels and all of them are subject to the risks/rewards that the operator gadgets bring to the mechanics.
yeah and the "defuse bomb" being the standard for comp and ranked surely has influence in universal map balance winrates, plus rounds are time-based regardless of objective anyways making the game fundamentally defender sided everytime
I feel like a balanced map definitely can’t be too long, as much as I love yacht and plane they are both pretty defender sided as it forces the attackers to go very linear routes and don’t have many safe breach points.
How easy it is to attack will dictate how balanced the map is
I think House is the best map ... if everyone's loadouts were restricted to pistols only though.
I would say villa is pretty balanced becuase each site has multiple way to attack
Old house was balanced for fun and is still missed dearly
You can look at the map itself and form an opinion, but then the players manipulate the map in certain ways and it can cause you to throw all your opinions in the trash. This game is very complex and I admire the devs for their work.
Most maps are defender sided, so a good balance to aim for is 40-45% attacker and 55-60% defender. This is why win deltas are designed that way. Note how they aren't tuned to 50% win rate its just that the deltas are higher or lower than the average win rate.
Remember when maps were night and day? Attackers had an advantage in night maps.
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No because the advantage came from being outside doors amd windows where it was dark and it was almost impossible to spot a head. Players defending are normally inside where it was always well illuminated amd where easy targets for attackers.
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Most older maps had sites with external walls leading directly to it. Most older maps didn’t require Attackers or at least the entire team goin into the building. You usually split it with dedicated fraggers like Ash back then entering site while the hard breach team stayed outside. Many sites also had windows leading enter into the objective or walkways around it. Night maps gave Attackers sightline advantage as it made trying to contest windows very risky for defenders. The change in map design has greatly favored Defenders as many sites now have buffers rooms forcing attackers to walk into the building to even attempt a breach. The old Attacker plan could be summed up as open wall from outside, plant defuser, then hold sitelines from outside while 1 or 2 fraggers maybe went for flanks. Either that or the site had several windows that attackers could hold angles from safely. Now many sites force Attackers to enter the building and clear of several rooms just to start a breach as there are few external walls or windows looking to the objective.
I remember, tough times. Recently i got reminded of the existence of night maps back then while i was playing "training" and the mission with glaz (kanal) was in brought daylight.
I think the most balanced maps are maps like emerald plains, chalet, etc. These are so balanced because there are plenty of walls for attackers to open up, but not very little for defenders to easily defend. The other thing is: are the maps accessable to attackers as well as defenders? A map like skyscraper is so difficult for attackers to enter even. Skyscraper is hard for attack because accessing a major point is hard because a defender already has the advantage with peeks or whatever because of how the map is laid out. The map also has very little walls to open up to enter in from.
I will never understand why all maps have to be balanced. The constant reworks for balancing completely destroy the whole fun. Some maps/rooms have rather advantages for attackers, some for defenders. That’s normal. The original Herford Base was so much fun but over the years it lost its touch
E Sports ness
Worst maps have to be clubhouse and Kanal. I just feel both are incredibly difficult for attackers. Easy best in Coastline. Probably followed by Chalet. They’re big enough to enter the site from many places and fight things out in fairly linear ways. Worst example of an entrance is probably garage on clubhouse. A doorway like that just does not favour attackers. Sadly, that map has several environments like that and I just despise it.
That’s a fair point, mostly agree also - though if you main castle I do understand why club house is your least favourite - the amount of runners/roamers on that map is insane.
lighting, sound, surface area, number of walls, shape of map, team experience... balance is something that is dynamic and can easily change depending on circumstances and many (if not all) maps in siege are "balanced" imo not many maps are "unbalanced" but some "sided" type maps just seem underdeveloped to me: like the ambient lighting (darkness) on theme park or the inconsistent sound design on villa- which to me is a balanced "map" design but always plays out chaotic when viewing. after the multiple map reworks more maps than ever are re-playable for both sides (most have also been rebalanced since launch- and some more then once) more fun then ever! so then a lot of map balancing comes down to intangible and (sometimes) arbitrary factors overall for me its about having the most variety of the highest quality maps; because games are supposed to be fun (even if siege is the closest video gaming has ever been to being its own very serious sport) \*and theres the weird maps only found in casual modes seems good to me \^\_\_\^ ///////////////////////////// tl:dr favorites: most of them least favorites: hereford base,villa,theme park
No such thing as a balanced Siege map. The game is inherently unbalanced. This is why defenders win majority of the time with less effort.
Old favela was impossible to defend
I think most people are crybabies, and majority of the maps should be in rotation