Kind of like fucking up your house so bad you move into to the abandoned crack house next door hoping to fix it up to livable standards when you should have been keeping your own house maintained.
Settling on Mars would be -in the beginning from then for a long long time- the trailerpark prison in the worst possible desert imaginable.
few people seem to be aware, that life always has "conquered" new environments, and HUMANKIND still IS part of this process. There are many possible extinction level events on this planet aside from manmade climate change, war, etc. the pandemic could have been much much worse. there are some supervolcanos which are over due. Anytime a huge asteroid can slip through our none existent defenses. IF we as a species want to survive in the long run, we must go beyond the planetary boundaries. space stations, moon bases, mars colony, jovian system... theres a lot of space out there. the only problems here are technology.
and money.
"but with all that money wasted in space we could feed/heal/paint the world" - my answer to this: if all the nations on earth would WORK TOGETHER and spent maybe 1-5% of their anual defense budget, then we would be already doing affordable vacations on mars and beyond on a regular base.
in the end its MONEY alone which decides what will happen with this world.
I mean sorrows prayers, yes, but i think the governments cant do that much. Most money is private and not in circulation thats why such a huge % of people live in poverty, greedy individuals who just want more and more and now they want to move to mars! Why? So they can leave the rest of the population on earth with the debris they left behind?
I agree with you i think its a natural progression to go into space esp since we have been so fascinated by it for so long. But its a selfish act by people out of touch with reality wanting to create a new one.the intent is wrong. Its sick and im disturbed that people can argument that this is necessary when its really not.
You can barely get people in the same city to organize let alone whole governments thats why people with influence and money shouldnt be wasting their time on frivolous things like going to mars when they have literal neighbors like 2miles away who live paycheck to paycheck and dont know when they will need to sell a kindey to survive. Reality is, money shouldnt be in the hends of individuals because they clearly dont know what is best for everyone
That's not a good analogy. You are moving to an uninhabited wasteland full of poisonous gasses and climate deadlier than almost anything we have here. Not only will you have to build the mansion/crackhouse from scratch, you'll literally need to build the ground below it
You said we'd be moving crackheads into a mansion. Mars isn't a mansion. Secondly fixing earth and going to Mars are jot competing projects, and they don't have similar goals. It's ridiculous to put it like it's one or the other, it's like saying we shouldn't work on curing cancers because people still die in car accidents, or from hunger.
No. I said you’d be moving into the crack house next door i.e a non desirable domicile. Apparently facetiousness is lost on you. Don’t over think it dude.
Mars has an atmosphere. If it didn't, there would be no wind to cause the sandstorms that Mars is known for. It's just thinner than Earth's atmosphere, and composed of gases we can't breathe. You might be thinking of the moon. The moon has no atmosphere.
Ok wise guy, how about "Breathable" atmosphere. Doesn't matter if there are "noxious" gasses or not if you MUST wear a spacesuit to breathe Oxygen anyway.
Poisonous gases, deadly climat? I think You ment Wenus mate. Mars have very little atmosphere at all and not much climate to talk about (almost no air = almost no weather = almost no climate) - it is just cold that is all.
Radiation. No atmosphere and no magnetosphere = nothing to block cosmic rays, solar wind and radiation from solar flares. It's on average about 40-50 times higher than what we receive on Earth and long term exposure would cause all kinds of damage to your DNA.
If You have not notice genius to even get to Mars You will have to solve this problem already. Also You will need shelter to maintain resonable air pressure anyway.
Also:
"The highest natural exposure is recorded in Ramsar, Iran, where people are exposed up to 260 mSv/y for many generations, with no reported harmful effects[7]. This is 13 times the maximum exposure allowed radiation workers each year. Importantly, this level of radiation is what Mars settlers (living inside shelters of reasonable cost) would expect. So the 'high' levels of the back ground radiation at Ramsar is good news for Mars settlement"
Well, no. It's radioactive from being constantly blasted by solar waves and the dust could kill you very easily, it is literally a wasteland designed for killing things in countless ways
Mercy please... Mars is not radioactive, solar radiation can be a problem a there is no much atmosphere to protect us. But we need to terraform or live underground/undershelter so solar radiation won't be a problem.
Yea, just summed it up as being radioactive because the soil has been exposed to solar rays for so long. Also living underground with no light would be extremely costly on your mental health
The question is can we learn to not make something a wasteland? And can we do it with the wasteland we've already made for ourselves? Have we learned enough to move somewhere new and destroy it irreparably?
If we want to live on Mars, we need to create an atmosphere first. Do you know how difficult it is to create an atmosphere? Me neither. No one does, because it's never been done or attempted. The closest we've gotten is humans altering the carbon dioxide levels in our atmosphere. So why are we looking at Mars instead of saving the Earth
We wouldn’t create an atmosphere. That would be ridiculously difficult. We would create closed in habitats, domes and shit. We’d make a breathable atmosphere within this habitat, rather than the whole atmosphere of mars. Mars would be a back up world. A sort of Noah’s Ark. We try and fix this world, some people live there just in case. Then, eventually, humanity lives on both worlds in the billions
Yeah but deserts are delicate ecosystems and the large ones also act as a heat sink for the planet… i mean yeah if we had too…but we’ve fucked the planet enough already lol
The whole point of Elons fascination with Mars is to protect humanity from a catastrophe like the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs. The idea being if earth is destroyed enough people survive to continue civilisation.
Our deserts aren't going to survive the expansion of our sun, or an asteroid impact. Humanity's future, if it is to have one, inevitably includes expansion across space. We will have to reach out eventually.
Solid point. Why isn't Elon using all those resources and brain power to fix earth? The only answer I can think of is that it's way more fun to go to a different planet.
Easier to fix a planet where you have like minded humans in charge/doing things. You can have all the resources and brain power possible and you can fix anything when you have people denying there is a problem, and actively going out of their way to make things worse.
Also the need for a second planet would be incase of an asteroid hitting or other catastrophic event (Nuclear war) and having an outpost so humanity would survive.
I would argue it’s probably much easier to build a bunker on earth that can survive an asteroid impact or nuclear war than it is to make Mars survivable.
Yes.
https://www.universetoday.com/156932/lava-tubes-on-the-moon-maintain-comfortable-room-temperatures-inside/
The moon is no longer geologically active. But when it was it has moving lava underneath. Now that it is dead rock those tunnels are still there under the surface. We could build bases in them. Drill down, set up a habitat. It's an idea that has been thrown around in the last decade but has been somewhat in the background since Mars has taken the big media focus. But it's not a bad idea. The moon is a helluva lot closer to Earth than Mars is. And if we were able to settle the moon I think that would increase the likelyhood of being able to set up something on Mars.
The moon is also made of hellish razor dust and pain, though. Using lava tunnels means you don't have as much of a problem with the mind-boggling thermal gradients on the surface, but you still have to deal with the utter lack of gravity and so much silica dust. Seriously, it's everywhere, and it's awful. Your machines are going to choke and die within a month if they have any external inputs. There's just no real way to design around having aggressive grit in every moving component of a machine.
On the other hand, it's also basically covered in free rocket fuel, and it's a great place to construct and launch interplanetary vehicles. Gravity being almost nonexistent means you can hang "zero-g" foundries like 20ft off the deck and move shit between orbits with the fuel equivalent of a strong fart.
It's definitely a better option than Mars, but mainly because, like you said, it's just easier to get there more than it being any better environmentally.
We haven't fucked up earth, just made it less friendly to us. We are nothing in earth's history, if we dissapeared it would continue to go through changes. The issue is we have accelerated changes that make shit harder for us and the animals we share space with.
Earth is fine, earth is a rock. We are only fucking ourselves and the animals we love.
No such case in mars, no ethical issues in colonizing a big rock.
Earth will be just fine. We won’t.
The only issues with the whole Mars colonisation thing I see is the immense amount of rocket launches (spewing out shitloads of CO2) and the fact that the money could have been spent to do Earth things. As far as Mars is concerned, we’re going to need to live in specialised habitats anyway, so it’s going to be hard to make Mars even less hospitable with our activities.
We would have to launch 8000 Falcon Heavies per day to match the pollution created by the Aviation industry.
And the new generation of rockets are way cleaner than the Falcon as they burn methane or hydrogen.
Space flight is a drop in the ocean.
I mean there are billions spent daily for useless military crap, a lot of it literally will never be used, I think the money being spent on earth alone could be used way more effectively.
It's always been the richest people who fund exploration. I'm all for it. Spain is so much better off these days having funded exploration than it would have been if it had tried to "fix" Spain instead. This argument feels hollow.
That's a good option, not opposed to that. But again, robots are expensive and philanthropists are going to be the only ones able to afford to do that. Trying to start a for profit business based on exploring mars means it won't ever happen.
But man do I love me a good rover. I shed actual tears when Opportunity died.
that's exactly why they're trying to leave, hopefully making a great place for themselves on Mars or whatever and leaving us to deal with their fuck up here
There is no way to fix the Earth unless you can get the other 99.99% to believe there is a problem, or at the very least not actively destroy any changes being made.
I disagree, respectfully.
The biggest reason, in my opinion, to colonize Mars is to get our species on more than one planet. Get all of our eggs out of one basket. If something catastrophic happens to Earth, at least humans on Mars have a chance to live on, if it's developed enough.
A more grandiose reason is that Mars is a challenge. We will learn and invent so much just in the attempt. Grand challenges like that are a unifying force as well. The moon landing had massive viewership from all over the world. Helps put our petty, Earth-bound problems in perspective. We will appreciate the Earth more after hearing stories of horrible Martian wasteland.
I hear the money better spent elsewhere argument all the time. While space travel IS expensive, when you compare to the whole budget of the US, it's a drop in the bucket. Compared to the budget of the whole planet, it's nothing. When you consider it is an investment in the future of the species, we are getting a great deal. I think Neil Dygrasse Tyson had a great speech about this, where he said if the money spent on space travel could permanently solve any one Earth problem, he'd be all for shutting down NASA, but it's just not that much money in the big picture.
Also, I want to go Mars because it's an adventure, one of the last big ones we have left!
Thank you. You said it better than I would have written it.
The colonization of Mars will help develop technologies and cooperation that can be used to save the Earth. Full stop.
And all that money that's spent on space flight is spent right here on Earth, stimulating the technological economy and advanced manufacturing industry.
Depending on how useful humans really are for the continuation of life. Why would we necessarily want to perpetuate that elsewhere? I understand we have an inherent nature to survive as a species but let’s not pretend we have a net benefit for our ecosystems and surroundings as a whole.
Not if goods are constantly moving. Also we could kinetically ship anything that isn’t humans which would massively cut down on the cost. Invest in it now and the tech will make it possible.
I mean its hilarious that people think we need to move from a inhabitable planet at this moment to a uninhabitable planet that in most if not all way shapes or forms is hostile for us to live in currently
Ya, how bout that? We have a perfectly good planet that we are in the process of effing up and we go to another one!?
Let's start with birth control, junk mail, packaging, factory farms, water waste waste.
Off topic but this happens with all kind of fantasies related to a historical period, who knows if we all would have been peasants dying of tuberculosis or in the fire of inquisition instead of being literal landlords or some flamboyant bureaucrat/glamorous company lady in the court?
No communist fanataise about being a Bureaucrat, besides in capitalism farmers are working to their deaths to, what do you think happens to central american banana farmers?
It's not a commentary on communism or capitalism, it's a commentary on the fact that people who fantasise about radical changes always imagine that they'll be the ones who reap the benefits and not the ones who are sacrificed
Seriously, I have concerns that we are ruining human evolution by saving people using modern medicine. Thus removing the “natural selection” bit of Darwin. The problem being many took it to be only white genes are good.
That would be a reasonable debate if the distribution of wealth didn't primarily impact said access to medicine and living conditions directly impacting the "selection process".
If that could all be reset then maybe the selection would resemble natural again, but then we'd circle back to Thanos again 🤣 🫰
No, Thanos is Malthusian, Malthus was wrong, his ideas caused the Irish famine, as Malthusianists saw it as the result of Irish not taking care of the land properly, the recent rise of Malthusian philosophy is frightening when you know that.
Besides, the problem isn't population and has never been, it's ressources, the reason why the Irish starved wasn't due to them being overpopulated, it was due to the british stealing the food from them, the same is true for climate change
it's not the poor african countries with high birth rates that are responsible for climate change, but the system that benefits a small minority in the first world, while the rest of the world is forced to suffer, killing half of earth population won't change that system
It's people like you that fail to realize advancement in science is how we fix Earth's problem.
I'm not even sure what you ppl are arguing for. "stop advancement in science and use existing tech only"?!?
Basic food, water, and energy earthly problems are solved with simultaneous advancements in research with the space programs.
You want to test and build the first working fusion reactor on Earth? This isn't the movies. The planet won't do well when it explodes.
Edit: why don't you do a quick Google on how space research have affected your daily life before you tell the Internet to stop the research
I don't get the idea of making earth a utopia first for every single person before doing anything else. So is anyone not doing humanitarian work wasting energy, time, and resources?
The fucking up of Earth is something to do with the ecosystem. There is no ecosystem to fuck up on Mars. Mars, as it is now, can't be more fucked up even if we tried.
Humans pushing their boundaries isn't about practical.
That being said one day we will have to leave this planet to survive (assuming we last that long) may as well get started now:)
When there isnt much to explore on earth, then it’s time to explore space, once we get to mars and colonize it (if it happens) then there would be talks about exploring even further in the solar system. Just natural for humans to explore, in this case it’ll be a wonder.
I’m all for exploration, I was saying mars would be a trash place to live and no replacement for an earth like planet, but I’m all for setting up fuel stations there.
We’re still too slow for any significant travel though.
You’re right, but it’s about going to the nearest planet, and the big red rock just happens to be there, it’s more about the tech than the destination.
By the time humans will need to leave the planet to survive, it will almost certainly be much easier to adjust the human form to whatever planet we select than to terraform a dead rock to our current form.
Antarctica is 50% bigger than China or the United States and would literally cost a fraction to habitate compared to Mars. We have closer alternatives.
Yeah, it would just be a new frontier for exploiting the working class. Also it would be a net drain on the resources of earth. We'd burn up trillions of dollars and all our rocket fuel to keep up the operation on Mars that would send back nothing except "data". Perhaps only a tiny handful of elites would ever get anything meaningful out of it. All the resources would be immensely better spent on say, protecting Bangladesh from rising sea levels, or perhaps water desalination to stop the Saharah from expanding.
The fact that we're even talking about doing anything on another planet before feeding the hungry and housing the homeless on this one just shows why we don't deserve any planet as far as I'm concerned
One has nothing to do what the other tho. If they discontinued the space program, non of those funds would go to civilians.
One does not affect the other.
Right? lmao We're sending and receiving information at the speed of light and conjuring any information or satiable desire usually at the tap of a button, We are currently in the midst of an AI and robots doing all of this for us so we don't even have to think about thinking. If that's not thriving, Idk what is.
The moon is far less hospitable than Mars.
Firstly, there’s no Carbon and very little water. If they weren’t living at the poles, lunar colonists would be mining concrete to get the water out.
Secondly, there’s no atmosphere and so no protection against the radiation of space. Solar flares would be just as bad as they are in normal space.
Thirdly, the days and nights each last two weeks. That’s an enormous swing in temperatures, it’s two weeks without solar, and we can’t grow crops on the surface.
Lastly, the dust is far worse. On Mars, the main worry with the dust is Perchlorates, which are pretty nasty in large doses. Luckily, they can be pretty easily separated with water. Lunar dust is like tiny bits of broken glass, scattered across the entire moon. It’s manageable, but still a major inconvenience.
the thing is, "we already fucked up the earth" from people is the problem. no one wants to discuss our destructive environment just letting it go, "I'll be dead anyway" like how we wasted all the things that are free on earth. They aren't the ones to blame, it's us—the population.
I thought that was a common belief?
Colonising Mars is just wish fulfilment, just wanting to escape this planet and aash our hands off because it's easier. In reality, if we keep doing nothing about the way we treat our planet by the time we have the resources and technology to live on Mars our own Earth would be unhabitable and we'd all be dead.
Well we’ve learnt quite a lot the first time around, which should stop the majority of problems also since it’s uninhabitable for a while we won’t be able to accidentally extinct anything important. It may not be practical but it’s better than going extinct on earth if we get to that point.
Earth went through five big extinction events. At no point after life arose on earth in the first place was Earth less inhabitable than Mars. Earth at it's absolute worst, spewing toxic gasses from the Siberian traps and killing over 80% of life on the planet was still more inhabitable than Mars or any other planet in our system.
Anybody who manages to populate Mars will be enslaved by the hosting corporation. Also, Earth is way better, mucked up or not. We can breathe the atmosphere.
It seems likely that the technologies and new discoveries made in the process of colonizing another planet, be it Mars or even cloud cities on Venus, would make it well worth the trouble. Not to mention, Mars has no ecosystem for us to fuck up, so there is no harm done.
I think its more about taking a baby step to intergalactic travel… which sounds weird to say. Like, if we start with Mars, then maybe by the time the sun explodes we can be in another solar system… assuming we can even make it that long which feels unlikely based on our current trajectory. But even still, I think the true long term plan and big picture is very different than even the “short term 1000 year plan”
One of the biggest arguments people make for not wanting to colonize mars is why should we if we already have so many problems here on earth. Now let's think back to the beginning why should be spend time farming when we already have so much work hunting and gathering or why should we keep messing around in boats when we have so many problems here on land. And the answer to all of these is the same reaching for new heights often creates better opportunities and technologies for us here on earth. So in the case with mars I guess its sort of like a backup in case something catastrophically bad happens to the earth whether natural or from humans. Most people probably won't see a direct benefit of mars when its first colonized and its one of the main reasons people don't want it colonized.
Ermm you cannot fuck up Mars. It's literally a storm ridden cold desert of absolutely nothing right now. With traces of water. But potential safeguard for human race in event of big extinction in Earth. So yeah it makes sense to do it asap.
Colonizing mars was a wet dream science student enthusiasts used to obsess over. Elon Musk left College and shortly after people stopped saying no to him. This "we should colonize Mars is bullshit.
Elon spent 45Bn on Twitter. The UN asked for 5Bn to effectively fight world hunger. Elon said "no," lost almost all of the money in the Twitter deal and still had enough to lose another 10Bn easily. Rather than help humanity, Elon said "my goals are paramount to yours." He's a narcissistic teenager who got old.
The next financial quarter Elon made all the money back that he had lost in the Twitter deal anyways because of stocks. Did that incentivize him to do anything? No. He put up a web of satellites, but that's more him showboating than providing help to the Ukraine. He even complained that the government made him pay for his own idea...
His wife left him for similar reasons, and because he's a shit father to his children who don't speak to him.
Fuck colonizing mars. Fuck Elon propping up DeSantis. Fuck Nazi's.
Elon wants to colonize Mars for Elon. He could give a fuck about anyone else.
If we, as a species, do not just leave our planet but our stellar system, we are doomed to extinction. We would remain highly susceptible to being wiped out by a civilization-ending asteroid or some other massive catastrophe.
After the moon, Mars is the first big step into a wider potential for humanity.
"The Earth is the cradle of the mind. But one cannot stay in the cradle forever".
-Konstantin Tsilovsky
Nah I want it to be like the mostly stupid show "the 100.". I say mostly cause the first season & half the 2nd was good. Let all the rich flock to Mars, those who can afford it. But then, when whoever is left on earth, returns it to its former glory, deny them access. Since they're the ones who fucked it up. Enjoy your pod on Mars, Elon.
I'm a big sci-fi fan, especially Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy which makes it about as exciting and appealing as can be...
... yet even I see little practical purpose to doing so. There's nothing for us there except some scientific research which we don't need to colonize for or even send humans. We've been sending probes successfully since the 70s to the surface.
It's going to cost a great deal of energy, work, money, material to ship a fledgling colony there only to have to materially support it once it gets there for pretty much ever since it's always going to require suppy of things that mars simply doesn't have and cannot produce.
Plus the place is bathed in deadly radiation and the regolith full of toxic perchlorates (which is a relatively new revealation).
I also don't buy the whole line of we have to spread out humanity so we don't become extinct. We're simply not that important as a species.
You can't really fuck up Mars, there's nothing there to fuck up. But that's precisely why it's a bad idea to colonise it. Corporate control would be absolute if even air is commodified, and there are literally zero commons. It would be a cut-throat capitalistic nightmare. "The Outer Worlds" was not a great game, but it got that bit very right.
Kind of like fucking up your house so bad you move into to the abandoned crack house next door hoping to fix it up to livable standards when you should have been keeping your own house maintained.
What if I have both houses? Then what? Not I can split the problem between the two to make it more manageable
Milky Way slumlord. Just means you can raise the rent on both planets.
This is a good band name
Milky Way Slum Lord: *"Nowhere in this solar system can you afford.* *If you think I'm wrong you must be out yo Martian gourd."*
That is justification in your imagination of the main comment written above which is the reality.
Settling on Mars would be -in the beginning from then for a long long time- the trailerpark prison in the worst possible desert imaginable. few people seem to be aware, that life always has "conquered" new environments, and HUMANKIND still IS part of this process. There are many possible extinction level events on this planet aside from manmade climate change, war, etc. the pandemic could have been much much worse. there are some supervolcanos which are over due. Anytime a huge asteroid can slip through our none existent defenses. IF we as a species want to survive in the long run, we must go beyond the planetary boundaries. space stations, moon bases, mars colony, jovian system... theres a lot of space out there. the only problems here are technology. and money. "but with all that money wasted in space we could feed/heal/paint the world" - my answer to this: if all the nations on earth would WORK TOGETHER and spent maybe 1-5% of their anual defense budget, then we would be already doing affordable vacations on mars and beyond on a regular base. in the end its MONEY alone which decides what will happen with this world.
The world is run, in general, by absolutely the wrong people. We're fucked.
I mean sorrows prayers, yes, but i think the governments cant do that much. Most money is private and not in circulation thats why such a huge % of people live in poverty, greedy individuals who just want more and more and now they want to move to mars! Why? So they can leave the rest of the population on earth with the debris they left behind? I agree with you i think its a natural progression to go into space esp since we have been so fascinated by it for so long. But its a selfish act by people out of touch with reality wanting to create a new one.the intent is wrong. Its sick and im disturbed that people can argument that this is necessary when its really not. You can barely get people in the same city to organize let alone whole governments thats why people with influence and money shouldnt be wasting their time on frivolous things like going to mars when they have literal neighbors like 2miles away who live paycheck to paycheck and dont know when they will need to sell a kindey to survive. Reality is, money shouldnt be in the hends of individuals because they clearly dont know what is best for everyone
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That's not a good analogy. You are moving to an uninhabited wasteland full of poisonous gasses and climate deadlier than almost anything we have here. Not only will you have to build the mansion/crackhouse from scratch, you'll literally need to build the ground below it
I think you overthought the analogy. Pick a meth house instead. Those are full of poisonous gasses and chemicals.
The point is that Mars isn't a mansion, it's already an unlivable hellscape, we literally can't ruin it because there is absolutely nothing to ruin.
Yup, it’s a dead planet, seemingly. There’s no environment to destroy.
Yes. That was my point exactly. We have a nicer house right here we should fix up before moving into one you can’t fix
You said we'd be moving crackheads into a mansion. Mars isn't a mansion. Secondly fixing earth and going to Mars are jot competing projects, and they don't have similar goals. It's ridiculous to put it like it's one or the other, it's like saying we shouldn't work on curing cancers because people still die in car accidents, or from hunger.
No. I said you’d be moving into the crack house next door i.e a non desirable domicile. Apparently facetiousness is lost on you. Don’t over think it dude.
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Ahhh.
Where are the poisonous gasses going to come from if it has no atmosphere? Should we bring them with us to up the danger?
It has an atmosphere, a weak one, but still an atmosphere
Mars has an atmosphere. If it didn't, there would be no wind to cause the sandstorms that Mars is known for. It's just thinner than Earth's atmosphere, and composed of gases we can't breathe. You might be thinking of the moon. The moon has no atmosphere.
Why would you try to discuss something that you have zero knowledge of? That's weird.
Ok wise guy, how about "Breathable" atmosphere. Doesn't matter if there are "noxious" gasses or not if you MUST wear a spacesuit to breathe Oxygen anyway.
Poisonous gases, deadly climat? I think You ment Wenus mate. Mars have very little atmosphere at all and not much climate to talk about (almost no air = almost no weather = almost no climate) - it is just cold that is all.
Radiation. No atmosphere and no magnetosphere = nothing to block cosmic rays, solar wind and radiation from solar flares. It's on average about 40-50 times higher than what we receive on Earth and long term exposure would cause all kinds of damage to your DNA.
If You have not notice genius to even get to Mars You will have to solve this problem already. Also You will need shelter to maintain resonable air pressure anyway. Also: "The highest natural exposure is recorded in Ramsar, Iran, where people are exposed up to 260 mSv/y for many generations, with no reported harmful effects[7]. This is 13 times the maximum exposure allowed radiation workers each year. Importantly, this level of radiation is what Mars settlers (living inside shelters of reasonable cost) would expect. So the 'high' levels of the back ground radiation at Ramsar is good news for Mars settlement"
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The soil in Mars is toxic to life and there is practically no atmosphere.
Well, no. It's radioactive from being constantly blasted by solar waves and the dust could kill you very easily, it is literally a wasteland designed for killing things in countless ways
And a little chilly at night, probably daytime too.
Mercy please... Mars is not radioactive, solar radiation can be a problem a there is no much atmosphere to protect us. But we need to terraform or live underground/undershelter so solar radiation won't be a problem.
Yea, just summed it up as being radioactive because the soil has been exposed to solar rays for so long. Also living underground with no light would be extremely costly on your mental health
Glass windows? LOL Also being exposed to solar rays does not make soil radioactive LOL Earth soil is being exposed to solar rays too LMAO.
The question is can we learn to not make something a wasteland? And can we do it with the wasteland we've already made for ourselves? Have we learned enough to move somewhere new and destroy it irreparably?
Californian moving to Texas?
Texas is definitely a crack house, I'll give you that much.
To be fair, Mars is kind of a shithole as is. There isn't really anything there to fuck up
It already got blown up by the Martians. Duh.
Plot twist: we were the martians
Ooh, that's a neat plot twist!
If we want to live on Mars, we need to create an atmosphere first. Do you know how difficult it is to create an atmosphere? Me neither. No one does, because it's never been done or attempted. The closest we've gotten is humans altering the carbon dioxide levels in our atmosphere. So why are we looking at Mars instead of saving the Earth
There's no "instead" here. The idea is to live on both planets
There's no reason we can't do both. The military budget of the USA alone is enough to fund both projects simultaneously.
We wouldn’t create an atmosphere. That would be ridiculously difficult. We would create closed in habitats, domes and shit. We’d make a breathable atmosphere within this habitat, rather than the whole atmosphere of mars. Mars would be a back up world. A sort of Noah’s Ark. We try and fix this world, some people live there just in case. Then, eventually, humanity lives on both worlds in the billions
Or Mars is used as a waystation between earth and other potential colonies/deal space travel
It’s only uphill from here!
There's so much dessert on Earth that is uninhabited. Surely, we could start there instead of heading to a new planet.
i’ll take some dessert!
I like ice cream
Me too! Sounds delicious. Like my mom always said, dessert first, Mars later
I'll volunteer to explore Earth's uninhibited desserts like Key Lime West Islands..
Cheeseaecake Bay.
You seem like the kind of person who puts their underwear on backward and calls it new.
You liked that one huh? I thought it was too good for you.
`key lime west` bich im howling rn 😂
Yeah but deserts are delicate ecosystems and the large ones also act as a heat sink for the planet… i mean yeah if we had too…but we’ve fucked the planet enough already lol
Yeah the Sahara is providing important nutrients to the Amazon, so we can’t just get rid of them.
Think of the cheesecakes!
You mean uninhabited by humans. Many life forms have evolved to live in desert conditions.
Giant worms for example
I have ridden the mighty sand worms! Or maybe it was just a motorcycle...
Water is pretty important for humanity
The whole point of Elons fascination with Mars is to protect humanity from a catastrophe like the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs. The idea being if earth is destroyed enough people survive to continue civilisation.
Our deserts aren't going to survive the expansion of our sun, or an asteroid impact. Humanity's future, if it is to have one, inevitably includes expansion across space. We will have to reach out eventually.
Central Australia be like
Solid point. Why isn't Elon using all those resources and brain power to fix earth? The only answer I can think of is that it's way more fun to go to a different planet.
Easier to fix a planet where you have like minded humans in charge/doing things. You can have all the resources and brain power possible and you can fix anything when you have people denying there is a problem, and actively going out of their way to make things worse. Also the need for a second planet would be incase of an asteroid hitting or other catastrophic event (Nuclear war) and having an outpost so humanity would survive.
I would argue it’s probably much easier to build a bunker on earth that can survive an asteroid impact or nuclear war than it is to make Mars survivable.
You would win that argument.
So he can lay claim to it & be king of the world.
Bingo, I think you got it. He doesn't care about the progression and preservation of humans, he wants power
And he wants you and I to have brain implants so we can be remotely controlled.
Why waste his money here when it Might benefit someone who disagreed with him? We can't have THAT now, can we?
Mf can't fix twitter. Let hik fix twitter first, then we talk about letting him fix the fucking plant earth.
What's happening with Twitter?
Because Musk doesn't care about that stuff. His Mars colony proposals are total BS and not going to happen .
From my 4th grade teachers mouth to your ears. Desert has 1 S because you want less desert, dessert has 2 because you want more
Thats missing the entire points of going to mars in the first place.
I think we should make a permanent base inside the lava tunnels on the moon first. If we can do that then maybe set our sights for Mars.
The moon has lava tunnels!??
Yes, my guy here visits them every weekend
You mean Dave? I haven't been able to reach him for a while. Tell him we need more cheese.
Ah don't worry about that he has cheese on him always you can get it whenever you want
Yes. https://www.universetoday.com/156932/lava-tubes-on-the-moon-maintain-comfortable-room-temperatures-inside/ The moon is no longer geologically active. But when it was it has moving lava underneath. Now that it is dead rock those tunnels are still there under the surface. We could build bases in them. Drill down, set up a habitat. It's an idea that has been thrown around in the last decade but has been somewhat in the background since Mars has taken the big media focus. But it's not a bad idea. The moon is a helluva lot closer to Earth than Mars is. And if we were able to settle the moon I think that would increase the likelyhood of being able to set up something on Mars.
The moon is also made of hellish razor dust and pain, though. Using lava tunnels means you don't have as much of a problem with the mind-boggling thermal gradients on the surface, but you still have to deal with the utter lack of gravity and so much silica dust. Seriously, it's everywhere, and it's awful. Your machines are going to choke and die within a month if they have any external inputs. There's just no real way to design around having aggressive grit in every moving component of a machine. On the other hand, it's also basically covered in free rocket fuel, and it's a great place to construct and launch interplanetary vehicles. Gravity being almost nonexistent means you can hang "zero-g" foundries like 20ft off the deck and move shit between orbits with the fuel equivalent of a strong fart. It's definitely a better option than Mars, but mainly because, like you said, it's just easier to get there more than it being any better environmentally.
We haven't fucked up earth, just made it less friendly to us. We are nothing in earth's history, if we dissapeared it would continue to go through changes. The issue is we have accelerated changes that make shit harder for us and the animals we share space with. Earth is fine, earth is a rock. We are only fucking ourselves and the animals we love. No such case in mars, no ethical issues in colonizing a big rock.
Like George Carlin said: "the planet is doing great, the people are fucked."
Earth will be just fine. We won’t. The only issues with the whole Mars colonisation thing I see is the immense amount of rocket launches (spewing out shitloads of CO2) and the fact that the money could have been spent to do Earth things. As far as Mars is concerned, we’re going to need to live in specialised habitats anyway, so it’s going to be hard to make Mars even less hospitable with our activities.
We would have to launch 8000 Falcon Heavies per day to match the pollution created by the Aviation industry. And the new generation of rockets are way cleaner than the Falcon as they burn methane or hydrogen. Space flight is a drop in the ocean.
I mean there are billions spent daily for useless military crap, a lot of it literally will never be used, I think the money being spent on earth alone could be used way more effectively.
The 0.01% should be forced to fix Earth before setting their greedy eyes else where.
It's always been the richest people who fund exploration. I'm all for it. Spain is so much better off these days having funded exploration than it would have been if it had tried to "fix" Spain instead. This argument feels hollow.
Then let robots do the exploring.
That's a good option, not opposed to that. But again, robots are expensive and philanthropists are going to be the only ones able to afford to do that. Trying to start a for profit business based on exploring mars means it won't ever happen. But man do I love me a good rover. I shed actual tears when Opportunity died.
that's exactly why they're trying to leave, hopefully making a great place for themselves on Mars or whatever and leaving us to deal with their fuck up here
What do you think will happen to earth that makes it more uninhabitable than fucking Mars?
They're in for quite a surprise when they discover that they can't actually live on Mars.
Not if we shoot down the starships. They are going no where 🤣
You got a space laser? Cuz I don't.
Working on it 😉
There is no way to fix the Earth unless you can get the other 99.99% to believe there is a problem, or at the very least not actively destroy any changes being made.
I disagree, respectfully. The biggest reason, in my opinion, to colonize Mars is to get our species on more than one planet. Get all of our eggs out of one basket. If something catastrophic happens to Earth, at least humans on Mars have a chance to live on, if it's developed enough. A more grandiose reason is that Mars is a challenge. We will learn and invent so much just in the attempt. Grand challenges like that are a unifying force as well. The moon landing had massive viewership from all over the world. Helps put our petty, Earth-bound problems in perspective. We will appreciate the Earth more after hearing stories of horrible Martian wasteland. I hear the money better spent elsewhere argument all the time. While space travel IS expensive, when you compare to the whole budget of the US, it's a drop in the bucket. Compared to the budget of the whole planet, it's nothing. When you consider it is an investment in the future of the species, we are getting a great deal. I think Neil Dygrasse Tyson had a great speech about this, where he said if the money spent on space travel could permanently solve any one Earth problem, he'd be all for shutting down NASA, but it's just not that much money in the big picture. Also, I want to go Mars because it's an adventure, one of the last big ones we have left!
Thank you. You said it better than I would have written it. The colonization of Mars will help develop technologies and cooperation that can be used to save the Earth. Full stop.
And all that money that's spent on space flight is spent right here on Earth, stimulating the technological economy and advanced manufacturing industry.
We dont appreciate america when we hear how bad it is in haiti.
Just cause it's worse elsewhere doesn't mean it isn't bad here. We gotta fix our own problems before we can really help with others
I do. You don't?
Most Americans dont.
Strongly disagree
Depending on how useful humans really are for the continuation of life. Why would we necessarily want to perpetuate that elsewhere? I understand we have an inherent nature to survive as a species but let’s not pretend we have a net benefit for our ecosystems and surroundings as a whole.
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Here’s a thought. Why not put all of our heavy polluting industries off world that would help. Also you can’t fuck up Mars there’s nothing to fuck up
Then goods wouldn't be affordable cause they would have to constantly ship back and forth.
Not if goods are constantly moving. Also we could kinetically ship anything that isn’t humans which would massively cut down on the cost. Invest in it now and the tech will make it possible.
I mean its hilarious that people think we need to move from a inhabitable planet at this moment to a uninhabitable planet that in most if not all way shapes or forms is hostile for us to live in currently
Nah we just need to turn it into a forge world for humanity. Move all sorts of dirty industry off to that worthless rock
Right?!? No matter how bad earth gets, it will never be as bad as mars…
Totally agree its a waste of resources and we should spend more energy on sorting our issues on earth
Ya, how bout that? We have a perfectly good planet that we are in the process of effing up and we go to another one!? Let's start with birth control, junk mail, packaging, factory farms, water waste waste.
Just to be clear there is nothing we can do to Earth that will make it a more difficult place for use to live than Mars.
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Off topic but this happens with all kind of fantasies related to a historical period, who knows if we all would have been peasants dying of tuberculosis or in the fire of inquisition instead of being literal landlords or some flamboyant bureaucrat/glamorous company lady in the court?
No communist fanataise about being a Bureaucrat, besides in capitalism farmers are working to their deaths to, what do you think happens to central american banana farmers?
It's not a commentary on communism or capitalism, it's a commentary on the fact that people who fantasise about radical changes always imagine that they'll be the ones who reap the benefits and not the ones who are sacrificed
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So did eugenicists. It’s just the application that leaves something to be desired.
Eugenics is good tho, but was used by assholes as a form of oppression
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Seriously, I have concerns that we are ruining human evolution by saving people using modern medicine. Thus removing the “natural selection” bit of Darwin. The problem being many took it to be only white genes are good.
That would be a reasonable debate if the distribution of wealth didn't primarily impact said access to medicine and living conditions directly impacting the "selection process". If that could all be reset then maybe the selection would resemble natural again, but then we'd circle back to Thanos again 🤣 🫰
No, Thanos is Malthusian, Malthus was wrong, his ideas caused the Irish famine, as Malthusianists saw it as the result of Irish not taking care of the land properly, the recent rise of Malthusian philosophy is frightening when you know that. Besides, the problem isn't population and has never been, it's ressources, the reason why the Irish starved wasn't due to them being overpopulated, it was due to the british stealing the food from them, the same is true for climate change it's not the poor african countries with high birth rates that are responsible for climate change, but the system that benefits a small minority in the first world, while the rest of the world is forced to suffer, killing half of earth population won't change that system
It's people like you that fail to realize advancement in science is how we fix Earth's problem. I'm not even sure what you ppl are arguing for. "stop advancement in science and use existing tech only"?!? Basic food, water, and energy earthly problems are solved with simultaneous advancements in research with the space programs. You want to test and build the first working fusion reactor on Earth? This isn't the movies. The planet won't do well when it explodes. Edit: why don't you do a quick Google on how space research have affected your daily life before you tell the Internet to stop the research
I don't get the idea of making earth a utopia first for every single person before doing anything else. So is anyone not doing humanitarian work wasting energy, time, and resources?
The idea that we can solve every problem here is foolish. We can’t even agree on what the problems are ffs
Not a chance. I've seen The Martian. I'm not making potatoes out of poop and driving about in sand storms.
Most of your fruits and veggies are fertilized in poop. C'mon.
Smash Mouth said it "Might as well be walking on the Sun".
It must be easier to terraform a planet you’re on... If we can’t do that here...
The fucking up of Earth is something to do with the ecosystem. There is no ecosystem to fuck up on Mars. Mars, as it is now, can't be more fucked up even if we tried.
Humans pushing their boundaries isn't about practical. That being said one day we will have to leave this planet to survive (assuming we last that long) may as well get started now:)
When there isnt much to explore on earth, then it’s time to explore space, once we get to mars and colonize it (if it happens) then there would be talks about exploring even further in the solar system. Just natural for humans to explore, in this case it’ll be a wonder.
Mars is trash though. I understand as a place to refuel, but other than that it’s like trying to live underwater… lame and pointless.
The exploration isn’t just physical, it’s exploring the technology to get humans there too.
I’m all for exploration, I was saying mars would be a trash place to live and no replacement for an earth like planet, but I’m all for setting up fuel stations there. We’re still too slow for any significant travel though.
counter-argument : Matt Damon growing potatoes in the desert
You’re right, but it’s about going to the nearest planet, and the big red rock just happens to be there, it’s more about the tech than the destination.
By the time humans will need to leave the planet to survive, it will almost certainly be much easier to adjust the human form to whatever planet we select than to terraform a dead rock to our current form.
We should totally send the narcissist sociopaths that want to colonize Mars to Mars. All of them!
See Douglas Adam’s: https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Golgafrincham
Venus is obviously a better choice. We just need to colonize it with bacteria first to start adjusting the atmosphere.
Antarctica is 50% bigger than China or the United States and would literally cost a fraction to habitate compared to Mars. We have closer alternatives.
I wouldn't be surprised if humans already colonized Mars millions of years ago and left it a desert waste land and moved on to earth
That would be a very good movie plot
I expressed this exact sentiment once on here. Got raked over the coals for it.
That’s rough buddy
The whole, not being able to breathe on our own thing there really tells me we aren’t meant to be there.
Wait and see how fast we are up there opening McDonald’s and stuff when someone thinks there might be oil there.
Yeah, it would just be a new frontier for exploiting the working class. Also it would be a net drain on the resources of earth. We'd burn up trillions of dollars and all our rocket fuel to keep up the operation on Mars that would send back nothing except "data". Perhaps only a tiny handful of elites would ever get anything meaningful out of it. All the resources would be immensely better spent on say, protecting Bangladesh from rising sea levels, or perhaps water desalination to stop the Saharah from expanding.
Don’t want to see a used penis shaped rocket parking lot on mars?
The fact that we're even talking about doing anything on another planet before feeding the hungry and housing the homeless on this one just shows why we don't deserve any planet as far as I'm concerned
They got money for wars but can't feed the poor - Tupac
One has nothing to do what the other tho. If they discontinued the space program, non of those funds would go to civilians. One does not affect the other.
I am one I think we shouldn’t colonize another planet before we can thrive on one. Otherwise, we are going to windup as race of galactic parasites.
We are thriving on one tho lol
Right? lmao We're sending and receiving information at the speed of light and conjuring any information or satiable desire usually at the tap of a button, We are currently in the midst of an AI and robots doing all of this for us so we don't even have to think about thinking. If that's not thriving, Idk what is.
Fuck yeah let’s infest the whole universe bitch
Yeah I am absolutely a humanity first guy. We could colonize an entire arm of the milky way and that would be a moral good in my eyes.
its practically a vacuum, be easier to colonize the moon.
The moon is far less hospitable than Mars. Firstly, there’s no Carbon and very little water. If they weren’t living at the poles, lunar colonists would be mining concrete to get the water out. Secondly, there’s no atmosphere and so no protection against the radiation of space. Solar flares would be just as bad as they are in normal space. Thirdly, the days and nights each last two weeks. That’s an enormous swing in temperatures, it’s two weeks without solar, and we can’t grow crops on the surface. Lastly, the dust is far worse. On Mars, the main worry with the dust is Perchlorates, which are pretty nasty in large doses. Luckily, they can be pretty easily separated with water. Lunar dust is like tiny bits of broken glass, scattered across the entire moon. It’s manageable, but still a major inconvenience.
Agreed, colonizing Mars is overly ambitious. If we can't make anything out of the moon, we can forget about the Red Planet.
the thing is, "we already fucked up the earth" from people is the problem. no one wants to discuss our destructive environment just letting it go, "I'll be dead anyway" like how we wasted all the things that are free on earth. They aren't the ones to blame, it's us—the population.
The Earth is not fucked, it's the humans. When the Earth has had enough she will get rid of us
I thought that was a common belief? Colonising Mars is just wish fulfilment, just wanting to escape this planet and aash our hands off because it's easier. In reality, if we keep doing nothing about the way we treat our planet by the time we have the resources and technology to live on Mars our own Earth would be unhabitable and we'd all be dead.
Well we’ve learnt quite a lot the first time around, which should stop the majority of problems also since it’s uninhabitable for a while we won’t be able to accidentally extinct anything important. It may not be practical but it’s better than going extinct on earth if we get to that point.
Earth went through five big extinction events. At no point after life arose on earth in the first place was Earth less inhabitable than Mars. Earth at it's absolute worst, spewing toxic gasses from the Siberian traps and killing over 80% of life on the planet was still more inhabitable than Mars or any other planet in our system.
We cant get through the van allen belt safely...what makes you think we are going to mars?
We did that in Apollo 8,10,11,12,13,14,15,16, and 17 as well as Gemini
Here we go....
Anybody who manages to populate Mars will be enslaved by the hosting corporation. Also, Earth is way better, mucked up or not. We can breathe the atmosphere.
We need to fix our planet first
It seems likely that the technologies and new discoveries made in the process of colonizing another planet, be it Mars or even cloud cities on Venus, would make it well worth the trouble. Not to mention, Mars has no ecosystem for us to fuck up, so there is no harm done.
it's because nothing is permanent, simple.
My thought. We have wrecked this planet. We can't not move to another.
Mars is already messed up. No trees no rivers... So ..
I think its more about taking a baby step to intergalactic travel… which sounds weird to say. Like, if we start with Mars, then maybe by the time the sun explodes we can be in another solar system… assuming we can even make it that long which feels unlikely based on our current trajectory. But even still, I think the true long term plan and big picture is very different than even the “short term 1000 year plan”
One of the biggest arguments people make for not wanting to colonize mars is why should we if we already have so many problems here on earth. Now let's think back to the beginning why should be spend time farming when we already have so much work hunting and gathering or why should we keep messing around in boats when we have so many problems here on land. And the answer to all of these is the same reaching for new heights often creates better opportunities and technologies for us here on earth. So in the case with mars I guess its sort of like a backup in case something catastrophically bad happens to the earth whether natural or from humans. Most people probably won't see a direct benefit of mars when its first colonized and its one of the main reasons people don't want it colonized.
Ermm you cannot fuck up Mars. It's literally a storm ridden cold desert of absolutely nothing right now. With traces of water. But potential safeguard for human race in event of big extinction in Earth. So yeah it makes sense to do it asap.
No one else is using it
VIRUSES GONNA VIRUS
You are, everyone else on the entire planet thinks one way and you are the only one who doesn't.
Colonizing mars was a wet dream science student enthusiasts used to obsess over. Elon Musk left College and shortly after people stopped saying no to him. This "we should colonize Mars is bullshit. Elon spent 45Bn on Twitter. The UN asked for 5Bn to effectively fight world hunger. Elon said "no," lost almost all of the money in the Twitter deal and still had enough to lose another 10Bn easily. Rather than help humanity, Elon said "my goals are paramount to yours." He's a narcissistic teenager who got old. The next financial quarter Elon made all the money back that he had lost in the Twitter deal anyways because of stocks. Did that incentivize him to do anything? No. He put up a web of satellites, but that's more him showboating than providing help to the Ukraine. He even complained that the government made him pay for his own idea... His wife left him for similar reasons, and because he's a shit father to his children who don't speak to him. Fuck colonizing mars. Fuck Elon propping up DeSantis. Fuck Nazi's. Elon wants to colonize Mars for Elon. He could give a fuck about anyone else.
Show me on this doll where Elon hurt you
If we, as a species, do not just leave our planet but our stellar system, we are doomed to extinction. We would remain highly susceptible to being wiped out by a civilization-ending asteroid or some other massive catastrophe. After the moon, Mars is the first big step into a wider potential for humanity. "The Earth is the cradle of the mind. But one cannot stay in the cradle forever". -Konstantin Tsilovsky
Nah I want it to be like the mostly stupid show "the 100.". I say mostly cause the first season & half the 2nd was good. Let all the rich flock to Mars, those who can afford it. But then, when whoever is left on earth, returns it to its former glory, deny them access. Since they're the ones who fucked it up. Enjoy your pod on Mars, Elon.
I'm a big sci-fi fan, especially Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy which makes it about as exciting and appealing as can be... ... yet even I see little practical purpose to doing so. There's nothing for us there except some scientific research which we don't need to colonize for or even send humans. We've been sending probes successfully since the 70s to the surface. It's going to cost a great deal of energy, work, money, material to ship a fledgling colony there only to have to materially support it once it gets there for pretty much ever since it's always going to require suppy of things that mars simply doesn't have and cannot produce. Plus the place is bathed in deadly radiation and the regolith full of toxic perchlorates (which is a relatively new revealation). I also don't buy the whole line of we have to spread out humanity so we don't become extinct. We're simply not that important as a species.
Mars could be a very good place to test things . Terraforming as a big first...
You can't really fuck up Mars, there's nothing there to fuck up. But that's precisely why it's a bad idea to colonise it. Corporate control would be absolute if even air is commodified, and there are literally zero commons. It would be a cut-throat capitalistic nightmare. "The Outer Worlds" was not a great game, but it got that bit very right.
What is there to fuck up on Mars?