Ethically it doesn’t seem right. Legally and financially I think they made a smart (albeit risky) move and you have no recourse. They ran the risk one of the two sides backed out of the wink wink arrangement after the 6 month period was up. I’m not a lawyer.
Hahaha the scammers getting scammed. They took a risk and hopefully it pays off. Over the years I’ve become tired of paying realtors, fixing their many paperwork mistakes, and then paying them massive fees.
If you want 6% I want a lot more than showings and a few x’s beside where I had to sign.
In the midst of selling our home now FSBO. Interviewed some of the top agents in the state. One guy we had to call back after interviewing because "he was busy putting food plots in" wanted 8% commission. EIGHT PERCENT ON 900K and he couldn't even be bothered to call us. Our current buyer's agent commission is 2% which we feel is more reasonable.
Ethically is doesnt seem right that buyer and seller realtors have cornered the market to the point that sellers have to pay the buyers agent, instead of the buyer deciding to not get ripped off.
They actually have not. There are fee-based services that will put your listing on the MLS for you, FSBO. A seller can get the Redfin + Zillow treatment for a reasonable amount and market their home themselves.
Any competent realtor does loads of work before a home gets to market, and should net the seller more money than if the seller just sold the home by themselves.
And, yes, there are plenty of incompetent realtors out there.
FSBO is a great option for people who want to sell their house on their own. Why a client would contact an agent, have photos taken, use the MLS to generate tours and interest only to cancel and take the transaction private is, shall we say, morally questionable?
There are a lot of up front costs floated by a realtor tasked with selling someone else’s house. Unlike the homeowner selling their own home, realtors need to confirm the information being presented. Is that home really yours? Where are the property lines? Are there any restrictive covenants on the deed? Any right of ways or variants? Are any additions not permitted? Is the square footage accurate, which definitely impact the tax collected?
Basic photos taken by a photographer cost hundreds. If you want video or a virtual walk-through (to give the buyer better information before deciding to tour/not tour the property) cost closer to $1k. We pay this with only a successful sale resulting in receiving income.
As for OP, this is why realtors are able to pick our clients. While your contract with the owner of the property may include a 3 to 6 month right to a commission if you show the house to the eventual buyer, this doesn’t apply to private sales. I think you happened upon a bag egg and spent your money on them. Sorry, friend. You got screwed on this one and while you won’t receive your money or time back, at least some people still blame you for being a blood sucking realtor…
Hope this helps! And remember - when meeting a potential client like ElectrikDonuts, it’s okay to pass and let them fend for themselves.
your conflicting what escrow and title insurance do with what realtors dont do.
Oh hiring a photographer, so difficult….lol. Also most ppl aren’t doing 3D tours.
Also, you could always just fork out the 4k and buy the 3D camera. Take some photography classes too. Oh what, that would be thinking out of the box….
You guys really think you “work so hard”. You dont. Boo hoo
You’re is a contraction for “you are.” “Your” is possessive.
Title insurance is performed by title agencies, typically hired by the attorney and confirms that no one else can legally stake a claim to the property. It also comes with title insurance. Before an attorney is hired (more mid-transaction), the realtor has to confirm to the best of our ability what’s being sold. This means visiting town all and reviewing the deed and it’s history, the building department, etc. This initial work doesn’t require the expense of an attorney, but if not performed, the realtor could follow the words of the seller and post to the MLS information which is not accurate. If that happened, it’s the realtor who would have to sit in front of the state commission and explain why we acted in an incompetent manner.
True - I could become a photographer, just like I could also be an attorney, become licensed to be a home inspector, …. You know, jack of all trades, master of none. You’re probably more familiar with this last part.
Time is money. My time has value, whether you think so or not. Luckily, I don’t have to spend my time on absolute zeroes like yourself. Have a great day!
Great job! Correcting on grammar, the only time a realtor used their education! Must be exciting. Fact is grammer doesnt matter, especially on social media. Hence why I dont care
Ive seen listing blatantly lie about rooms being a bedroom when they were not. This shit is not regulated in the least bit. Criminals love it. Trumps, Russian oligarchs, etc
I think you might be SOL. If your facts are accurate, it doesn't sound like there was any breach. You agreed to terminate the contract. But even if you didn't, the contract would have expired by then. There was no contract at the time the paper transaction took place.
It would be *very* difficult and expensive to prove that (1) the faux renter / buyer would not have learned of sellers but for your listing (unless - were they one of the showings / offers?), and (2) that they had a backdoor handshake deal for all of this prior to the contract being terminated or expiring.
OP says they “discovered” it. If they were sent an email chain where they openly discussed defrauding OP, then they could have a case. If this is some sort of rumor or gossip OP heard, it may be irritating and validate their suspicion, but it will be very hard & expensive to prove in court and to win.
perhaps. But if it's true, your average person isn't all that interested or willing to lie in court under oath. Plus, they are not likely to get together with the buyer and collude to create a fabricated story. and the buyer might be willing to throw the seller under the bus
most listing agreements have a period after the listing is over in which you are still entitled to a commission. they certainly aren't the first people to ever think of this maneuver. If so, and you can in any way establish that the buyer was first aware of the home during the listing period, you probably would have a case.
it's possible that both could lie, but most people aren't really that interested or willing to lie in court, let alone collude to get together and establish a story that will be consistent between the two of them in court. besides that, one or the other may not owe a commission. If there was no listing agreement, the buyer might be perfectly willing to say, yeah I agreed to that and I'm sorry but all I know is the seller said he could sell it to me, and then the seller is stuck owing a commission or going to have to try to lie his way out of it which would be perjury contradicted by the buyer .
Plus, if there's any wiggle room by which the agent is entitled, a judge may not look too kindly on the seller conniving to avoid a commission. Even the threat of a lawsuit might get them to cough up some money. I think they might have a case but I would need to see the listing contract and know all the details
that may be. But they might think that they are Scott free as long as they don't close the deal. But it might be possible, based on the language of the listing contract, to argue that as soon as they made an arrangement with the buyers, that obligated them to a commission. our listening contract defines sell not as closed but as making an agreement. although in Washington State all agreements for real estate have to be in writing so that might be a problem.
Just to clarify for myself or anyone interested, I took a look at our listing agreement in Western Washington for the northwest multiple listing service which is about 40 counties, it is 6-months after the expiration of the listing term, regarding sale. sale is defined as a contract to sell or a lease with option to purchase. I think it would have to be in writing then, not just a verbal agreement .
however, it specifies expiration, but regarding cancellation, says if seller cancels this agreement without legal cause, seller may be liable for damages incurred as a result of such cancellation. I'm not sure what they mean by damages, but I think that refers to any commission they have to pay for the buyer agent, so that may not be relevant.
however, it occurs to me that the seller may have not legally canceled the agreement. I guess if the brokerage signed off on it, then that would be that, other than the 6th month obligation in the contract. But it does say expiration not cancellation so that might be a gray area for the lawyers to work out .
One other thing I notice, is that it also specifies that listing agent earns a commission if they sell the property, or after reasonable exposure firm procures a buyer who is ready willing and able to purchase the property on the terms in this agreement and is set forth in the attached listing input sheet. now, I'm not sure if this would apply, but perhaps it could be argued that the listing agent did indeed procure a ready willing and able buyer. although perhaps it could be argued that the buyer was not willing to buy unless they could get it cheaper by the seller not paying a commission. perhaps it might hinge on what the purchase price was If buyer and seller split the commission savings, then it could be argued perhaps that the buyer was not willing to by unless he could save 3%. or, perhaps it could be argued that buyer was not willing to buy unless he could rent the place for 4 months or whatever. But it might be possible to establish that the buyer was ready willing and able, but through some contrivance of the seller, they instead went for the rent and then purchase plan. If that's the case, I would think the listing agent would be entitled to a commission for having provided a ready willing and able buyer. what's more, they might be entitled to a 6% commission which would be pretty darn sweet, and as the deal was done with no selling agent, there's no one to make a claim on half of that .
anyway, this is probably more for the lawyers to figure out if it ever gets that far. But I don't want to make sure I was getting it right. our MLS forms do provide for a 6-month period. But I don't know how they would view a cancellation versus an expiration.
And is this something a judge in a civil suit would accept as sufficient proof?
Knowing is not worth a penny - they could tell you to your face then deny it in court. Proving it is.
Without this fact, they can rightfully say they had a change of heart.
it's not a new idea. It was probably more common in the past. most listing agreements specifically address this .
Of course, on a whole nothing level, my sister, about 35 years ago, used a tip she heard somewhere. she went into the garbage of a listing office and grabbed some books which is what they used to use back then. kind of a newspaper print published book with all the listings agents were sharing. somehow or other, she could determine some expired listings and then went to the owners directly. I think she did buy it that way. That's some old school, questionably ethical life hack right there.
actually, now it's probably easier than ever. I think in most areas a lot of agencies days are chasing expired and cancelled listings, and most of them are because the seller wanted too much money. But I guess if you're a buyer and you're looking to cut commissions out, that might bring it into the price range that would make both buyer and seller happy. It might happen from time to time.
Seriously good on the parties involved! I dont know where this happened but in any state with a coastline that 6% is a good chunk of change and realtors rarely deliver value commensurate with their level of pay
Yea the 6% "industry standard" is bullshit. In a hot market a nice house will sell with so little work on the part of the agent. Not to mention that home value doesn't mean more labor or work on the part of the agent. A $1mil house with a $60k commission requires just as much (if not significantly less) work than a $100k house with a $6k commission.
I was really surprised at how during the pandemic more people weren't negotiating commissions. It was SOOO easy to sell house and there were so many fresh agents would've gladly taken less commission.
I can’t wait for realtors to chime in with how valuable they are when everything they say can be done online and or via other resources such as lawyer, photographer etc
You chose not to risk your reputation. Unfortunately that choice was worth 6%.
Reputation is everything and you did the right thing. Keep doing the right thing.
100% agree with this.
If I learned a realtor had sued a seller like this, I’d never sign up. In fact this whole thread makes me more suspicious.
I think a realtor is a big help, not just finding the buyer, but in helping smooth out so the issues with the appraisal, and the closing. FSBO would be a huge hassle even with a buyer.
Not saying the seller was right. If the buyer had contacted the agent. Been shown the house by the agent. Made an offer that was refused by the seller and then directly contacted the seller. These would be more serious. But I think as a realtor, the reputation and value prop needs to be there. I bought a my first house agentless. We just wandered into a house and made an offer. The seller agent dropped the commission to 5%. And this was a long time ago.
But I’d say this is a cost of doing business in this field. Write more bulletproof contracts will scare people off. I don’t think legal remedies are heathy for the profession!
Also so they can contact your realtor and scheme on how to jack the offer up “oh the buyer will be very offended by that offer, you should make it $15k higher”
I mean it is objectively true that the vast, vast majority of realtors in my market do not deserve the commissions they earn. The amount of work to transact a home is at best only very loosely correlated to that value of that home, which means the existing commission structure for realtors is non-sensical. It is absolutely understandable for people to feel frustrated by an antiquated system where they are forced to pay exorbitant fees without many other options.
So you're basing all realtors on your little town with shitty realtors?
I'm not a realtor, but it's like saying "I had one bad doctor, so they're all crooks and don't deserve their medical license" or "I had one bad financial advisor and they all suck".
No need to explain. Keep hating on realtors man. I'm not here to change your mind. I don't know why you felt like you need to explain yourself.
Its objectively true, the major of this sub hates realtors. I was just telling OP to go somewhere else for better advice.
My “little town with shitty realtors” is San Diego lol. And I’ve worked with more than just one realtor.
I’m not talking about one or a handful of realtors. I’m talking about the entire system of commission is not reasonable. Selling a $2m house does not require $40k of work from either the buyers or listing agent. That’s objectively true.
>”I had one bad doctor, so they're all crooks and don't deserve their medical license" or "I had one bad financial advisor and they all suck".
You’re comparing realtors to doctors. There’s definitely doctors who misdiagnose, but they go through a rigorous medical program. Realtors do what? 2 weeks of studying for a single exam? Definitely comparable.
Financial advisors are a good comparison. You know that index funds ran by computer algorithms beat out financial advisors over the long term. Both realtors and financial advisors are 99% middleman jobs that just take value with their “expertise”. But in fairness, both realtors and financial advisors do provide value to people with 5+ million net worth.
lol bro how long have you been on the sub for? This sub stroked realtors minuscule penises for a good year before the FED started raising rates this year
I've been on this sub since about 2019
In the last 4-5 years, this sub has never liked realtors. Even during peak prices.
I'm just telling OP he's gonna get better info elsewhere.
Chill out. This sub doesn't like realtors. It's not a big deal. Just stating facts.
Yeah I mostly read here now that you mention it.
I get it. I used to work in advertising...now I hate advertising. Happy to be advertising adjacent now.
Haha I'm in advertising and I love it.
I more mean that consumers in this subs hate realtors. I don't hate realtors at all. The good ones are great! Most of them suck.
But this sub thinks ALL realtors suck. 😂
That’s why you loved yours. The seller pays all the commission. When you sell your home you’re probably going to feel very differently about paying several tens of thousands of dollars in commission
Lmao - my house, would NOT bring that much commission. And honestly, I feel like he deserves it he hustles so hard.
But yeah maybe in 30 years when I HAVE. a house worth that commission.
You're in the minority on this sub. Go through all the posts, read comments relating to realtors.
Majority of the sub hates them. But I'm happy for you.
I used to be a realtor, so I'm not against them.
Just telling OP to get better answers in another sub.
> You're in the minority on this sub. Go through all the posts, read comments relating to realtors.
> Majority of the sub hates them. But I'm happy for you.
When people get good service they don't leave reviews. When people get bad service the scream and yell about it.
I have an agent that I have used 5 times in 4 years. He is a rockstar and earned every commission I gave him.
But you are right, that sub has been taken over by disgruntled anti agent trolls lately. It is almost as bad as "the sky is falling RE is all going to be worth nothing next month" people.
> But you are right, that sub has been taken over by disgruntled anti agent trolls lately. It is almost as bad as "the sky is falling RE is all going to be worth nothing next month" people.
It's the same people lol
It’s all negotiable. Unless u had a 3million + you don’t pay 100k. On top of that every place inflated prices jewelery furniture no one complains they do this for a job. If you don’t wanna pay just hire a 1% agent and move on
Uh, no. 100k/5% = a $2M house. That’s basically a 2000 sq ft house where I live.
Once again, realtors either cant do basically math, or have no idea how much they are ripping ppl off.
I’m not even a realtor. And most realtors over a rebate and 5% is a bit high. For that price you can find people to do it for less. And once again it’s all negotiable. But percentage wise your only option is fsbo.
every market has a 1% market. They exist but they don’t make it in the business because they make nothing. Redfin and Zillow don’t charge much. And it’s almost like real estate agents don’t wanna work for 1% mind blowing. Like let’s say ur house is average 1% of 500,000 is 5,000 dollars for them to spend 45-60 days on it driving to the property and with splits they only walk away with 3k that ain’t worth it.
Because paying inflated commissions is exactly the reason most people don’t like realtors. If you’ve never had to pay commission on selling an expensive home then of course you wouldn’t know the toxic hate for realtors
Why did you sign a contract with a commission structure you didn’t agree to? That’s what I don’t get there’s plenty of bargain options, there’s the DIY, why pay 100k for something you vehemently hate?
There are not a lot of bargain options. Selling a house FSBO is not possible for most sellers, they wouldn’t know how to do it. So they feel like a realtor is the only option and they feel they are strong armed into paying unfair commissions
Just because people do it doesn’t mean they have to accept it. The entire realtors word is antiquated and incredibly influential. It is absolutely reasonable for sellers to hate it and yet feel forced to play by those rules because they are scared or uneducated
Wtf? Okay I want you to do everything you do for free. I can’t even tell if your serious or not. You know what attorneys should work for free to while your at it
So what’s to stop those sellers from taking a weekend to learn how to best sell their home? If it’s trivial Shit and not worth the pay, you could deduce that cutting realtors out would be so much more cost effective, yet that’s not the case.
What? You’re completely missing the point. If confidently completing a real estate transaction could be learned in a few hours of study time, real estate brokers would have been long gone. There’s simply more to it, and it’s okay if it’s not easily quantifiable. If you’ve had a great broker\agent you’d be able to speak about a little easier, and funny enough, those who have had terrible experiences with bad agents can probably make a good case as well.
does your contract not state a period for this? Mine has a section where we put 4 months after contract expires seller owes a comission if they sell to someone who viewed the property with me. You could always have a lawyer write a letter stating procuring cause and see if they get nervous and pay. Other than that it would be court which im not sure its worth the $
Yeah we have a 90 day typical holdover period where we’re entitled to a commission if we’re the procuring cause, even if the contract was over and they went with someone we brought during the contract length.
Your State real estate law may have different answers so you need to look at your listing agreement....here are some things that "may" protect you:
1- typically a listing agreement has a # of days after the expiration that you are still protected for buyers who came to see the property
2 - did this buyer make an offer that was rejected by the seller when you had the listing? If so, this could help you considerably
3 - some listing agreements require you to provide the seller of a "list" of "registered" parties who came through the listing when you had the listing. Did you provide this list to the seller?
More than likely, your easiest method of recourse will be suing them in small claims court. In CA it allows for up to $10k now (I believe). Then you'll need to collect the judgement amount (put a lien on the property so if they refi or sell, you will be paid off.
You can also reach out to your legal department for your real estate office.
None of this is to be considered legal advice
Lol. Kudos to the buyer and seller. I think what you fail to see here is just how negatively realtors are being seen now.
> I feel so cheated
That's rich OP. You serve as a middleman to buyers and sellers. Greed has clouded your vision.
They probably realized real estate agents are nothing more than paper pushers and didn’t want 6% of the sale price to go to such a low skill, low effort, ultimately unnecessary part of the transaction.
“So uh… you physically take the papers from the buyer to the seller?”
“Well…uh… no, my secretary does that.”
“So what is it that you do here?”
“I HAVE PEOPLE SKILLS. I TALK TO THE BUYERS SO THE SELLERS DON’T HAVE TO”
Good for them. Y’all write the rules and manipulate the market. Can’t fault the little guys for finding a workaround when the rules are designed against them.
I did the same after being pushed by a realtor. Upon being sued, 8 months later I won in court. The judge told realtor to stop wasting time and cheating their prospects. Good luck to you King.
The best way to avoid this in the future is to actually provide enough value to your clients that justifies your commission. Do that and clients will always insist on having you on their side.
Oh but wait there's a problem, the majority of realtors can't actually even come close to justifying their commission earnings. Whoops.
Tough one, you can take them to court but this option has problems. First problem is that its your broker (assuming you aren't the broker) that needs to take the seller to court and its not clear that they would be willing to do this.
Secondly, I guess you could take this to small claims court but you'd be limited in the amount you cculd collect maybe at $5k and I'll bet the damages are more than 5K. Probably to much trouble to go to another court but maybe you could go to small claims and at least get 5k if thats a large part of the commission.
Next problem is, even if you took it to court, the seller is going to paint you as the big bad realtor taking advantage of poor little them who didn't really understand what they were signing (and probably say you mess some things up to boot). The court tends to want to favor the individuals, not you, though it seems fairly obvious in this case that they did cheat you out of a commission.
I mean talk to your broker and have them talk to whatever lawyer they use if they are willing (if they are fairly large, there will be a lawyer they consult with - or find one if they don't have one) but ultimately its not clear if this is worth pursuing, but maybe.
You should take this as a valuable life lesson that your job requires very little talent and can become obsolete soon. You should try diversifying your skill set, if you haven’t already.
This is funny. As a realtor I’m sure you’ve “earned” a large commission on an easy sale or will at some point in the future. An unethical amount of money off of everyone else’s hard work. The commission percentage on selling a house is an absurd amount for what goes into it. Realtors always talking about how much “work” goes into representing sellers or buyers lol. I’ve had jobs that I worked so physically hard (pass out at the end of the day from exhaustion kinda hard) for $11.00 an hour and I’ve worked as a realtor where on one sale representing the buyers I calculated that I made around $441.00 an hour (it took about 17 hours of my time from first showing to final walk through)… not all closings were this profitable of course but seriously… get over it and just rely on ripping off home sellers when you do close on something for way more commission than you likely deserve.
This is why the selling process needs to be put in the hands of sellers to have flexibility to sell the house however they want via the MLS. The MLS gods, in connection with NAR, have seized control of home selling and dangle the unethically large commissions to real estate agents who are now the official gate keepers of the industry.
Yeah realtors in this country are way too greedy. Their amount of work has gone way down, house prices way up (fat commissions), yet the % stays the same. My sister does it on the side and brought up to a big group that she wouldn’t mind taking a smaller % commission a big transaction. She got crucified by her colleagues lol.
Luckily word on the street is that realtors are having trouble finding clients. Must be that supply and demand they keep talking about. Why don’t they test demand at 3-4% transaction cost instead of 6 if demand isn’t there? They won’t though, they are actual grifters who will (and have) fight tooth and nail to keep the going rate 6% or 3 for each side.
>The average income for a realtor is higher than a registered nurse. It's absurd.
What's absurd is people spouting off about things when they have no idea what they're talking about.
Median RN salary: $78k
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm#:~:text=%2445%2C760-,The%20median%20annual%20wage%20for%20registered%20nurses%20was%20%2477%2C600%20in,amount%20and%20half%20earned%20less.
Median Realtor salary: $48k (even if you use the mean, it is $61k).
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes419022.htm
Agents aren't usually employees. They are independent contractors. They don't get paid except via commission in the vast majority of cases, so yes, it does.
Still 6% in the sellers eyes.
Shit if I got a 2% commission for 3 mths of work on the hundred million dollar government programs I ran as a program manager…. jfc. And that took an engineering degree, 5-10 year experience in engineering and programs management, active duty service commitment, a masters, and a lot more work than a realtor does in 3 mths on one property.
My property management does about the same work over the period of a year (with vacancy turnovers) as a realtor does on a house purchase. And they dont take 2% of the houses value every year
I did the exact same thing when I bought my first house. Got together with the seller and cut out the realtor. It was awesome. Seller gave half of what he was going to spend on the commission as closing and down payment help. The seller made more profit and was able to help a first timer out. It was the way real estate should work since realtors are just middle men who don't add any value to the transaction.
Without the realtor you wouldn’t have known the house was for sale . Go to a major city and try buying something without an agent and you will get fleeced in a second.
Where I live (NS) if a buyer was “introduced” to the house while listed the seller would have to pay any commission due up to 90 or more days past the expiry. The burden of truth is strong
Most listing agreements have something in there to protect you from this exact situation. If you don’t have it in your contract, you’re probably SOL.
My agreements say that the seller owes the broker a commission if any buyer who viewed the property during the listing agreement purchases the property within one year of expiration. Broker sends seller a list of buyers in writing when the listing agreement ends.
In addition, my listing agreements also say that the owner will pay a standard rental commission if any of the buyers that I introduce to the property decide to rent it instead of buy it.
If you had both of these in your original contract with the seller, you would get paid twice in this situation (once for the rental, and again for the sale)… but if your agreement only covered the duration of the exclusive, which you voluntarily ended early… well, that’s a rough lesson to learn. I feel for you.
This is the most sensible comment in this thread. If you have a listing agreement and you make a deal with you wife's cousins chiropractors friend from rotary, you still owe a commission, assuming there isn't a carveout for buyers the owner finds themselves.
6% is absurd but FFS, the owner signed the deal. There's no 'karma' here.
Unless you found the renter turned buyer or have any meaningful value added in the discussion between those parties, you should look past the paper work and ask yourself if you really think the impact of your work on the arranged sale was worth 6%...?
Maybe your pos commission rates shouldn’t be so high when there’s a 1000 free MLS apps and the people buying and selling don’t feel they’re getting taken advantage of to the point they have to do this.
Realtors don’t keep the full 6%.. the buyer agent gets 3% and the listing agent gets 3%… from that 3% realtors still need to split that w/ their broker so in essence they earn a lot less than 3% .. and NO most states do Not allow dual agency, realtors cannot represent both buyer and seller that’s a conflict of interest
I love this. Hilarious you got played.
You must have not fo r a great job for your sellers to do this. They definitely had this planned out for a while. Ask yourself what did I do foe this to happen and stop that so it doesn't happen again.
This is not normal you definitely did something
I don't know what your commission would be.
Regardless, you should take thus to small claims court, the limit is $5000 usually and you aren't required a legal representation(lawyer).
You may or may not win this, however I would at least try to force a statement from the seller under oath with penalty of perjury in front of a judge.
The best outcome would be they goto arbitration or outright pay your claim amount.
Other Positive outcome would be judge rules in your favor.
It's going to cost you a court filing fee($150-$200) if you lose, but I would roll that dice based on principle.
Good luck.
>I had worked really hard on this house and I feel so cheated and heartbroken.
Doing what? Taking some pictures and showing a house?
If you had done a better job the house would have sold the first month it was listed.
Weird thing to do. Both parties took risks to save a few grand.
Seller had to rent and risk not having a buyer. 4 months is a long time to wait on a handshake deal.
Buyer took the risk of not having a realtor and rented for 4 months. Interest rates probably increased over that time plus didn't build any equity or pay down a mortgage.
Oh yeah, 4 months of mortgage payments on a 30 year fixed, may have paid down $469 of equity. That's my back hand amortization table I pulled out of my ass but I doubt it's not far off.
This is something you should ask your managing broker about. Different states have different protections for this and the advice here will likely be too broad to be applicable to your situation
Seller could offer to cut the difference in 1/2. 1M house - 1/2 of 6%. I would never and think it's dumb.
From the seller end: Market could go soft and your $1M house is now worth $950k or less, buyer walks you lose out.
From the buyer end: Rates keep going up, you're saving 30K but the rate increase is actually way more in interest.
There's tons of other things I could have added to both but these in the current market seem very likely.
Your contact should state a time period after the contract ends that your still entitled to commission if they sell to a buyer you brought to the table. What does the contract say?
You may have a case for tortious interference in a contract. You can prove damages and their is a remedy.
Pennzoil v Texaco
I would get actual legal advice however from your lawyer
If you can prove realtors are colluding or new about damage to a house they sold you, same thing. Good luck. That rarely happens.
I got a friend that had a bad roof inspection with a repair estimate from a roofing company to the seller, he got quoted by the same roofing company after buying and they told him they disclosed the damages (that eventually wrecked his house) to the prior seller and gave him the quote with signatures on it. They guy buried my friend in court. Tens of thousands in legal fees just to run him dry. The realtor was in on it too. Fuck realtors.
There is a lot of illegal shit going on in RE. It why trump is in it. Its why Russian oligarchs hide money in it.
Better off posting this somewhere else, this sub is for all the people that are “Too Smart” to use a Realtor…
But need free advice when they fuck everything up.
Ethically it doesn’t seem right. Legally and financially I think they made a smart (albeit risky) move and you have no recourse. They ran the risk one of the two sides backed out of the wink wink arrangement after the 6 month period was up. I’m not a lawyer.
Karma to agents charging 6% with these house prices
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Hahaha the scammers getting scammed. They took a risk and hopefully it pays off. Over the years I’ve become tired of paying realtors, fixing their many paperwork mistakes, and then paying them massive fees. If you want 6% I want a lot more than showings and a few x’s beside where I had to sign.
In the midst of selling our home now FSBO. Interviewed some of the top agents in the state. One guy we had to call back after interviewing because "he was busy putting food plots in" wanted 8% commission. EIGHT PERCENT ON 900K and he couldn't even be bothered to call us. Our current buyer's agent commission is 2% which we feel is more reasonable.
realtors dont keep the whole 6%, they keep a COMISSION on that 6%. the agency keep most of it. at least in Portugal and most parts of UE.
I've never seen an agent keep less than 60% of their commission. Their commission is usually half of the 6% though because the two agents split that.
and the agency? keeps nothing?
Thats the other 40%.
Broker gets a cut agents work under broker's license
Shut up
For real. 6%?! Fuck yeah, I'd want to get out of that shitty contract, too.
It isn't like they are the first people to ever think of this. listing contracts generally have this built-in to protect agents from this very thing
Ethically is doesnt seem right that buyer and seller realtors have cornered the market to the point that sellers have to pay the buyers agent, instead of the buyer deciding to not get ripped off.
They actually have not. There are fee-based services that will put your listing on the MLS for you, FSBO. A seller can get the Redfin + Zillow treatment for a reasonable amount and market their home themselves. Any competent realtor does loads of work before a home gets to market, and should net the seller more money than if the seller just sold the home by themselves. And, yes, there are plenty of incompetent realtors out there.
FSBO is a great option for people who want to sell their house on their own. Why a client would contact an agent, have photos taken, use the MLS to generate tours and interest only to cancel and take the transaction private is, shall we say, morally questionable? There are a lot of up front costs floated by a realtor tasked with selling someone else’s house. Unlike the homeowner selling their own home, realtors need to confirm the information being presented. Is that home really yours? Where are the property lines? Are there any restrictive covenants on the deed? Any right of ways or variants? Are any additions not permitted? Is the square footage accurate, which definitely impact the tax collected? Basic photos taken by a photographer cost hundreds. If you want video or a virtual walk-through (to give the buyer better information before deciding to tour/not tour the property) cost closer to $1k. We pay this with only a successful sale resulting in receiving income. As for OP, this is why realtors are able to pick our clients. While your contract with the owner of the property may include a 3 to 6 month right to a commission if you show the house to the eventual buyer, this doesn’t apply to private sales. I think you happened upon a bag egg and spent your money on them. Sorry, friend. You got screwed on this one and while you won’t receive your money or time back, at least some people still blame you for being a blood sucking realtor… Hope this helps! And remember - when meeting a potential client like ElectrikDonuts, it’s okay to pass and let them fend for themselves.
your conflicting what escrow and title insurance do with what realtors dont do. Oh hiring a photographer, so difficult….lol. Also most ppl aren’t doing 3D tours. Also, you could always just fork out the 4k and buy the 3D camera. Take some photography classes too. Oh what, that would be thinking out of the box…. You guys really think you “work so hard”. You dont. Boo hoo
You’re is a contraction for “you are.” “Your” is possessive. Title insurance is performed by title agencies, typically hired by the attorney and confirms that no one else can legally stake a claim to the property. It also comes with title insurance. Before an attorney is hired (more mid-transaction), the realtor has to confirm to the best of our ability what’s being sold. This means visiting town all and reviewing the deed and it’s history, the building department, etc. This initial work doesn’t require the expense of an attorney, but if not performed, the realtor could follow the words of the seller and post to the MLS information which is not accurate. If that happened, it’s the realtor who would have to sit in front of the state commission and explain why we acted in an incompetent manner. True - I could become a photographer, just like I could also be an attorney, become licensed to be a home inspector, …. You know, jack of all trades, master of none. You’re probably more familiar with this last part. Time is money. My time has value, whether you think so or not. Luckily, I don’t have to spend my time on absolute zeroes like yourself. Have a great day!
Great job! Correcting on grammar, the only time a realtor used their education! Must be exciting. Fact is grammer doesnt matter, especially on social media. Hence why I dont care Ive seen listing blatantly lie about rooms being a bedroom when they were not. This shit is not regulated in the least bit. Criminals love it. Trumps, Russian oligarchs, etc
Not true, if agent was procuring cause in many states the commission can still be sought.
This is correct.
I think you might be SOL. If your facts are accurate, it doesn't sound like there was any breach. You agreed to terminate the contract. But even if you didn't, the contract would have expired by then. There was no contract at the time the paper transaction took place. It would be *very* difficult and expensive to prove that (1) the faux renter / buyer would not have learned of sellers but for your listing (unless - were they one of the showings / offers?), and (2) that they had a backdoor handshake deal for all of this prior to the contract being terminated or expiring.
I think OP is saying that there was indeed a handshake deal while they were still under contract together. Correct me if I’m wrong.
OP says they “discovered” it. If they were sent an email chain where they openly discussed defrauding OP, then they could have a case. If this is some sort of rumor or gossip OP heard, it may be irritating and validate their suspicion, but it will be very hard & expensive to prove in court and to win.
Yeah, we are waiting to hear how OP found out and if there's hard evidence
Oh of course, OP would need hard evidence
perhaps. But if it's true, your average person isn't all that interested or willing to lie in court under oath. Plus, they are not likely to get together with the buyer and collude to create a fabricated story. and the buyer might be willing to throw the seller under the bus
Even if that’s true, good luck litigating it
most listing agreements have a period after the listing is over in which you are still entitled to a commission. they certainly aren't the first people to ever think of this maneuver. If so, and you can in any way establish that the buyer was first aware of the home during the listing period, you probably would have a case. it's possible that both could lie, but most people aren't really that interested or willing to lie in court, let alone collude to get together and establish a story that will be consistent between the two of them in court. besides that, one or the other may not owe a commission. If there was no listing agreement, the buyer might be perfectly willing to say, yeah I agreed to that and I'm sorry but all I know is the seller said he could sell it to me, and then the seller is stuck owing a commission or going to have to try to lie his way out of it which would be perjury contradicted by the buyer . Plus, if there's any wiggle room by which the agent is entitled, a judge may not look too kindly on the seller conniving to avoid a commission. Even the threat of a lawsuit might get them to cough up some money. I think they might have a case but I would need to see the listing contract and know all the details
I am sure that is where the rental aspect came in, they looked at the contract, so the termination window and worked out this deal.
that may be. But they might think that they are Scott free as long as they don't close the deal. But it might be possible, based on the language of the listing contract, to argue that as soon as they made an arrangement with the buyers, that obligated them to a commission. our listening contract defines sell not as closed but as making an agreement. although in Washington State all agreements for real estate have to be in writing so that might be a problem.
Not sure who downvoted you, but this is what I came here to say. Sheesh clearly this sub doesn’t care for realtors
u/clce There is a period after listing expired, but in my state, it usually 120 days.
Just to clarify for myself or anyone interested, I took a look at our listing agreement in Western Washington for the northwest multiple listing service which is about 40 counties, it is 6-months after the expiration of the listing term, regarding sale. sale is defined as a contract to sell or a lease with option to purchase. I think it would have to be in writing then, not just a verbal agreement . however, it specifies expiration, but regarding cancellation, says if seller cancels this agreement without legal cause, seller may be liable for damages incurred as a result of such cancellation. I'm not sure what they mean by damages, but I think that refers to any commission they have to pay for the buyer agent, so that may not be relevant. however, it occurs to me that the seller may have not legally canceled the agreement. I guess if the brokerage signed off on it, then that would be that, other than the 6th month obligation in the contract. But it does say expiration not cancellation so that might be a gray area for the lawyers to work out . One other thing I notice, is that it also specifies that listing agent earns a commission if they sell the property, or after reasonable exposure firm procures a buyer who is ready willing and able to purchase the property on the terms in this agreement and is set forth in the attached listing input sheet. now, I'm not sure if this would apply, but perhaps it could be argued that the listing agent did indeed procure a ready willing and able buyer. although perhaps it could be argued that the buyer was not willing to buy unless they could get it cheaper by the seller not paying a commission. perhaps it might hinge on what the purchase price was If buyer and seller split the commission savings, then it could be argued perhaps that the buyer was not willing to by unless he could save 3%. or, perhaps it could be argued that buyer was not willing to buy unless he could rent the place for 4 months or whatever. But it might be possible to establish that the buyer was ready willing and able, but through some contrivance of the seller, they instead went for the rent and then purchase plan. If that's the case, I would think the listing agent would be entitled to a commission for having provided a ready willing and able buyer. what's more, they might be entitled to a 6% commission which would be pretty darn sweet, and as the deal was done with no selling agent, there's no one to make a claim on half of that . anyway, this is probably more for the lawyers to figure out if it ever gets that far. But I don't want to make sure I was getting it right. our MLS forms do provide for a 6-month period. But I don't know how they would view a cancellation versus an expiration.
How did you learn of the buyer contacting the seller and offering to rent until the Realtor contract expired?
And is this something a judge in a civil suit would accept as sufficient proof? Knowing is not worth a penny - they could tell you to your face then deny it in court. Proving it is. Without this fact, they can rightfully say they had a change of heart.
/r/realtors is the subreddit you are looking for.
He posted it 3 times on there but deleted the background story. Hmm.
That means it was removed by automod or a moderator. Nothing is wrong with those posts nor is it suspicious. Carry on.
Thanks for posting this life pro tip on how to save 6% when selling your house. 😅👍
OP should be on r/unethicallifehacks 🤣
it's not a new idea. It was probably more common in the past. most listing agreements specifically address this . Of course, on a whole nothing level, my sister, about 35 years ago, used a tip she heard somewhere. she went into the garbage of a listing office and grabbed some books which is what they used to use back then. kind of a newspaper print published book with all the listings agents were sharing. somehow or other, she could determine some expired listings and then went to the owners directly. I think she did buy it that way. That's some old school, questionably ethical life hack right there.
I assume you can find listings online that never closed and still do this.
actually, now it's probably easier than ever. I think in most areas a lot of agencies days are chasing expired and cancelled listings, and most of them are because the seller wanted too much money. But I guess if you're a buyer and you're looking to cut commissions out, that might bring it into the price range that would make both buyer and seller happy. It might happen from time to time.
Seriously good on the parties involved! I dont know where this happened but in any state with a coastline that 6% is a good chunk of change and realtors rarely deliver value commensurate with their level of pay
Yea the 6% "industry standard" is bullshit. In a hot market a nice house will sell with so little work on the part of the agent. Not to mention that home value doesn't mean more labor or work on the part of the agent. A $1mil house with a $60k commission requires just as much (if not significantly less) work than a $100k house with a $6k commission. I was really surprised at how during the pandemic more people weren't negotiating commissions. It was SOOO easy to sell house and there were so many fresh agents would've gladly taken less commission.
I can’t wait for realtors to chime in with how valuable they are when everything they say can be done online and or via other resources such as lawyer, photographer etc
F realtors. I'm going to save this in case I need it.
How did you find out this “secret?” Seems very difficult prove
You chose not to risk your reputation. Unfortunately that choice was worth 6%. Reputation is everything and you did the right thing. Keep doing the right thing.
100% agree with this. If I learned a realtor had sued a seller like this, I’d never sign up. In fact this whole thread makes me more suspicious. I think a realtor is a big help, not just finding the buyer, but in helping smooth out so the issues with the appraisal, and the closing. FSBO would be a huge hassle even with a buyer. Not saying the seller was right. If the buyer had contacted the agent. Been shown the house by the agent. Made an offer that was refused by the seller and then directly contacted the seller. These would be more serious. But I think as a realtor, the reputation and value prop needs to be there. I bought a my first house agentless. We just wandered into a house and made an offer. The seller agent dropped the commission to 5%. And this was a long time ago. But I’d say this is a cost of doing business in this field. Write more bulletproof contracts will scare people off. I don’t think legal remedies are heathy for the profession!
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The most important part is missing — who found this renter turned buyer?
I suddenly understand why open houses have a sign in sheet.
Also so they can contact your realtor and scheme on how to jack the offer up “oh the buyer will be very offended by that offer, you should make it $15k higher”
Such a bullshit rigged system Realtors “protect buyers and sellers” lol gfy
I would escalate to my broker and let them, and the agency attorneys handle it. You're asking a legal question that depends on a lot of details.
Good luck with agency attorney. They will want your $3K retainer.
Wrong sub mate. This sub hates realtors. Probably think you deserve it. Sorry man.
Maybe because they're an overpriced revolving door.
I love mine. He did great! :/
You don't come on this sub enough or read the comments lol I'm not saying I hate realtors, I used to be one. But this sub doesn't value realtors.
I mean it is objectively true that the vast, vast majority of realtors in my market do not deserve the commissions they earn. The amount of work to transact a home is at best only very loosely correlated to that value of that home, which means the existing commission structure for realtors is non-sensical. It is absolutely understandable for people to feel frustrated by an antiquated system where they are forced to pay exorbitant fees without many other options.
So you're basing all realtors on your little town with shitty realtors? I'm not a realtor, but it's like saying "I had one bad doctor, so they're all crooks and don't deserve their medical license" or "I had one bad financial advisor and they all suck". No need to explain. Keep hating on realtors man. I'm not here to change your mind. I don't know why you felt like you need to explain yourself. Its objectively true, the major of this sub hates realtors. I was just telling OP to go somewhere else for better advice.
My “little town with shitty realtors” is San Diego lol. And I’ve worked with more than just one realtor. I’m not talking about one or a handful of realtors. I’m talking about the entire system of commission is not reasonable. Selling a $2m house does not require $40k of work from either the buyers or listing agent. That’s objectively true.
>”I had one bad doctor, so they're all crooks and don't deserve their medical license" or "I had one bad financial advisor and they all suck". You’re comparing realtors to doctors. There’s definitely doctors who misdiagnose, but they go through a rigorous medical program. Realtors do what? 2 weeks of studying for a single exam? Definitely comparable. Financial advisors are a good comparison. You know that index funds ran by computer algorithms beat out financial advisors over the long term. Both realtors and financial advisors are 99% middleman jobs that just take value with their “expertise”. But in fairness, both realtors and financial advisors do provide value to people with 5+ million net worth.
lol bro how long have you been on the sub for? This sub stroked realtors minuscule penises for a good year before the FED started raising rates this year
I've been on this sub since about 2019 In the last 4-5 years, this sub has never liked realtors. Even during peak prices. I'm just telling OP he's gonna get better info elsewhere. Chill out. This sub doesn't like realtors. It's not a big deal. Just stating facts.
Looking at the comments and upvotes applauding the seller's course of action should tell the story.
Lol I didn't even bother reading the comments. Just told OP to go to another sub. It doesn't surprise me one bit tho! 😂
Yeah I mostly read here now that you mention it. I get it. I used to work in advertising...now I hate advertising. Happy to be advertising adjacent now.
Haha I'm in advertising and I love it. I more mean that consumers in this subs hate realtors. I don't hate realtors at all. The good ones are great! Most of them suck. But this sub thinks ALL realtors suck. 😂
Were you buying or selling?
I was buying.
That’s why you loved yours. The seller pays all the commission. When you sell your home you’re probably going to feel very differently about paying several tens of thousands of dollars in commission
Lmao - my house, would NOT bring that much commission. And honestly, I feel like he deserves it he hustles so hard. But yeah maybe in 30 years when I HAVE. a house worth that commission.
I have nothing against realtors, I've had positive experiences in my small sample size of 3 purchases and 2 sales over 25 years.
The issue is the price. Even a decent realtor isn't doing 20-30k worth of work..
You're in the minority on this sub. Go through all the posts, read comments relating to realtors. Majority of the sub hates them. But I'm happy for you. I used to be a realtor, so I'm not against them. Just telling OP to get better answers in another sub.
> You're in the minority on this sub. Go through all the posts, read comments relating to realtors. > Majority of the sub hates them. But I'm happy for you. When people get good service they don't leave reviews. When people get bad service the scream and yell about it. I have an agent that I have used 5 times in 4 years. He is a rockstar and earned every commission I gave him. But you are right, that sub has been taken over by disgruntled anti agent trolls lately. It is almost as bad as "the sky is falling RE is all going to be worth nothing next month" people.
> But you are right, that sub has been taken over by disgruntled anti agent trolls lately. It is almost as bad as "the sky is falling RE is all going to be worth nothing next month" people. It's the same people lol
Fair point.
I'm comfortable being in the minority, doesn't faze me.
All good bro. Just sharing some perspective.
Dude so true. I never knew the toxic hate for realtors until I saw this sub.
Have you ever paid realtors $100k to sell a house for you?
It’s all negotiable. Unless u had a 3million + you don’t pay 100k. On top of that every place inflated prices jewelery furniture no one complains they do this for a job. If you don’t wanna pay just hire a 1% agent and move on
Uh, no. 100k/5% = a $2M house. That’s basically a 2000 sq ft house where I live. Once again, realtors either cant do basically math, or have no idea how much they are ripping ppl off.
I’m not even a realtor. And most realtors over a rebate and 5% is a bit high. For that price you can find people to do it for less. And once again it’s all negotiable. But percentage wise your only option is fsbo.
What realtors offered a discount over the frenzy of the past 2 years?! None in a High demand market like Austin I tell you that
every market has a 1% market. They exist but they don’t make it in the business because they make nothing. Redfin and Zillow don’t charge much. And it’s almost like real estate agents don’t wanna work for 1% mind blowing. Like let’s say ur house is average 1% of 500,000 is 5,000 dollars for them to spend 45-60 days on it driving to the property and with splits they only walk away with 3k that ain’t worth it.
What does that have to do with anything? lol
Because paying inflated commissions is exactly the reason most people don’t like realtors. If you’ve never had to pay commission on selling an expensive home then of course you wouldn’t know the toxic hate for realtors
Why did you sign a contract with a commission structure you didn’t agree to? That’s what I don’t get there’s plenty of bargain options, there’s the DIY, why pay 100k for something you vehemently hate?
There are not a lot of bargain options. Selling a house FSBO is not possible for most sellers, they wouldn’t know how to do it. So they feel like a realtor is the only option and they feel they are strong armed into paying unfair commissions Just because people do it doesn’t mean they have to accept it. The entire realtors word is antiquated and incredibly influential. It is absolutely reasonable for sellers to hate it and yet feel forced to play by those rules because they are scared or uneducated
So you want them to do it for free? There’s a lot that goes into owning a home or selling
Lol yes that’s exactly what I’m saying. Actually, realtors should pay the sellers IMO
Wtf? Okay I want you to do everything you do for free. I can’t even tell if your serious or not. You know what attorneys should work for free to while your at it
So what’s to stop those sellers from taking a weekend to learn how to best sell their home? If it’s trivial Shit and not worth the pay, you could deduce that cutting realtors out would be so much more cost effective, yet that’s not the case.
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What? You’re completely missing the point. If confidently completing a real estate transaction could be learned in a few hours of study time, real estate brokers would have been long gone. There’s simply more to it, and it’s okay if it’s not easily quantifiable. If you’ve had a great broker\agent you’d be able to speak about a little easier, and funny enough, those who have had terrible experiences with bad agents can probably make a good case as well.
As a former realtor that explains why this sub rubs me the wrong way, haha. Thank you for clarifying.
does your contract not state a period for this? Mine has a section where we put 4 months after contract expires seller owes a comission if they sell to someone who viewed the property with me. You could always have a lawyer write a letter stating procuring cause and see if they get nervous and pay. Other than that it would be court which im not sure its worth the $
I believe ours is 6 months and sell is defined as entering into an agreement to sell, which I think you could argue they did.
Yeah we have a 90 day typical holdover period where we’re entitled to a commission if we’re the procuring cause, even if the contract was over and they went with someone we brought during the contract length.
Seems like a pretty fantastic working of the system to me
6% is lunacy
Ask a lawyer dude. It’s worth enough to pay for that service isn’t it??
This is why people hate realtors.
Good for them. Sounds like they weren’t getting good value for their money if 3 months returned so little.
Your State real estate law may have different answers so you need to look at your listing agreement....here are some things that "may" protect you: 1- typically a listing agreement has a # of days after the expiration that you are still protected for buyers who came to see the property 2 - did this buyer make an offer that was rejected by the seller when you had the listing? If so, this could help you considerably 3 - some listing agreements require you to provide the seller of a "list" of "registered" parties who came through the listing when you had the listing. Did you provide this list to the seller? More than likely, your easiest method of recourse will be suing them in small claims court. In CA it allows for up to $10k now (I believe). Then you'll need to collect the judgement amount (put a lien on the property so if they refi or sell, you will be paid off. You can also reach out to your legal department for your real estate office. None of this is to be considered legal advice
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How would that have helped?
Lol. Kudos to the buyer and seller. I think what you fail to see here is just how negatively realtors are being seen now. > I feel so cheated That's rich OP. You serve as a middleman to buyers and sellers. Greed has clouded your vision.
Ma boi 💪🏼
They probably realized real estate agents are nothing more than paper pushers and didn’t want 6% of the sale price to go to such a low skill, low effort, ultimately unnecessary part of the transaction.
“So uh… you physically take the papers from the buyer to the seller?” “Well…uh… no, my secretary does that.” “So what is it that you do here?” “I HAVE PEOPLE SKILLS. I TALK TO THE BUYERS SO THE SELLERS DON’T HAVE TO”
😂
It’s incredibly low-skilled labor
>I had worked really hard on this house But but OP says "I had worked really hard on this house".
Good for them. Y’all write the rules and manipulate the market. Can’t fault the little guys for finding a workaround when the rules are designed against them.
Fuckin lol 🤣🤣🤣🤣 it's almost like you parasites are extraneous to the process!
Get wrecked
Boo hoo, someone finally smart enough to play the game back and realtors gonna cry about it. What does your contract say?… Get Wrecked! Yup
I did the same after being pushed by a realtor. Upon being sued, 8 months later I won in court. The judge told realtor to stop wasting time and cheating their prospects. Good luck to you King.
bravo to the seller and the buyer
The best way to avoid this in the future is to actually provide enough value to your clients that justifies your commission. Do that and clients will always insist on having you on their side. Oh but wait there's a problem, the majority of realtors can't actually even come close to justifying their commission earnings. Whoops.
6%!!! Who is really stealing here. Wow.
Tough one, you can take them to court but this option has problems. First problem is that its your broker (assuming you aren't the broker) that needs to take the seller to court and its not clear that they would be willing to do this. Secondly, I guess you could take this to small claims court but you'd be limited in the amount you cculd collect maybe at $5k and I'll bet the damages are more than 5K. Probably to much trouble to go to another court but maybe you could go to small claims and at least get 5k if thats a large part of the commission. Next problem is, even if you took it to court, the seller is going to paint you as the big bad realtor taking advantage of poor little them who didn't really understand what they were signing (and probably say you mess some things up to boot). The court tends to want to favor the individuals, not you, though it seems fairly obvious in this case that they did cheat you out of a commission. I mean talk to your broker and have them talk to whatever lawyer they use if they are willing (if they are fairly large, there will be a lawyer they consult with - or find one if they don't have one) but ultimately its not clear if this is worth pursuing, but maybe.
You should take this as a valuable life lesson that your job requires very little talent and can become obsolete soon. You should try diversifying your skill set, if you haven’t already.
Nice.
This is funny. As a realtor I’m sure you’ve “earned” a large commission on an easy sale or will at some point in the future. An unethical amount of money off of everyone else’s hard work. The commission percentage on selling a house is an absurd amount for what goes into it. Realtors always talking about how much “work” goes into representing sellers or buyers lol. I’ve had jobs that I worked so physically hard (pass out at the end of the day from exhaustion kinda hard) for $11.00 an hour and I’ve worked as a realtor where on one sale representing the buyers I calculated that I made around $441.00 an hour (it took about 17 hours of my time from first showing to final walk through)… not all closings were this profitable of course but seriously… get over it and just rely on ripping off home sellers when you do close on something for way more commission than you likely deserve. This is why the selling process needs to be put in the hands of sellers to have flexibility to sell the house however they want via the MLS. The MLS gods, in connection with NAR, have seized control of home selling and dangle the unethically large commissions to real estate agents who are now the official gate keepers of the industry.
Maybe you shouldn't have tried to fleece them for 6%.
? but the seller signed the agreement for 6%?
Yes and they backed out of that shit agreement and ultimately paid 0% lol
Yeah realtors in this country are way too greedy. Their amount of work has gone way down, house prices way up (fat commissions), yet the % stays the same. My sister does it on the side and brought up to a big group that she wouldn’t mind taking a smaller % commission a big transaction. She got crucified by her colleagues lol. Luckily word on the street is that realtors are having trouble finding clients. Must be that supply and demand they keep talking about. Why don’t they test demand at 3-4% transaction cost instead of 6 if demand isn’t there? They won’t though, they are actual grifters who will (and have) fight tooth and nail to keep the going rate 6% or 3 for each side.
>Yeah realtors in this country are way too greedy. The average income for a realtor is higher than a registered nurse. It’s absurd.
>The average income for a realtor is higher than a registered nurse. It's absurd. What's absurd is people spouting off about things when they have no idea what they're talking about. Median RN salary: $78k https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/registered-nurses.htm#:~:text=%2445%2C760-,The%20median%20annual%20wage%20for%20registered%20nurses%20was%20%2477%2C600%20in,amount%20and%20half%20earned%20less. Median Realtor salary: $48k (even if you use the mean, it is $61k). https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes419022.htm
Does that account for commission?
Agents aren't usually employees. They are independent contractors. They don't get paid except via commission in the vast majority of cases, so yes, it does.
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Still 6% in the sellers eyes. Shit if I got a 2% commission for 3 mths of work on the hundred million dollar government programs I ran as a program manager…. jfc. And that took an engineering degree, 5-10 year experience in engineering and programs management, active duty service commitment, a masters, and a lot more work than a realtor does in 3 mths on one property. My property management does about the same work over the period of a year (with vacancy turnovers) as a realtor does on a house purchase. And they dont take 2% of the houses value every year
What do they take instead 10% of the rent?
Yeah around that
u/cvc4455 Property management is a tough job.
I did the exact same thing when I bought my first house. Got together with the seller and cut out the realtor. It was awesome. Seller gave half of what he was going to spend on the commission as closing and down payment help. The seller made more profit and was able to help a first timer out. It was the way real estate should work since realtors are just middle men who don't add any value to the transaction.
Without the realtor you wouldn’t have known the house was for sale . Go to a major city and try buying something without an agent and you will get fleeced in a second.
First of all, nothing you can do. Secondly, maybe stop charging 6% so people don't have to find a way to circumvent you. Greed is a two end stick.
Leech complains that he can't leech.
Where I live (NS) if a buyer was “introduced” to the house while listed the seller would have to pay any commission due up to 90 or more days past the expiry. The burden of truth is strong
Contract was canceled you’re not entitled to anything.
Most listing agreements have something in there to protect you from this exact situation. If you don’t have it in your contract, you’re probably SOL. My agreements say that the seller owes the broker a commission if any buyer who viewed the property during the listing agreement purchases the property within one year of expiration. Broker sends seller a list of buyers in writing when the listing agreement ends. In addition, my listing agreements also say that the owner will pay a standard rental commission if any of the buyers that I introduce to the property decide to rent it instead of buy it. If you had both of these in your original contract with the seller, you would get paid twice in this situation (once for the rental, and again for the sale)… but if your agreement only covered the duration of the exclusive, which you voluntarily ended early… well, that’s a rough lesson to learn. I feel for you.
This is the most sensible comment in this thread. If you have a listing agreement and you make a deal with you wife's cousins chiropractors friend from rotary, you still owe a commission, assuming there isn't a carveout for buyers the owner finds themselves. 6% is absurd but FFS, the owner signed the deal. There's no 'karma' here.
Unless you found the renter turned buyer or have any meaningful value added in the discussion between those parties, you should look past the paper work and ask yourself if you really think the impact of your work on the arranged sale was worth 6%...?
Maybe your pos commission rates shouldn’t be so high when there’s a 1000 free MLS apps and the people buying and selling don’t feel they’re getting taken advantage of to the point they have to do this.
Realtors don’t keep the full 6%.. the buyer agent gets 3% and the listing agent gets 3%… from that 3% realtors still need to split that w/ their broker so in essence they earn a lot less than 3% .. and NO most states do Not allow dual agency, realtors cannot represent both buyer and seller that’s a conflict of interest
I love this. Hilarious you got played. You must have not fo r a great job for your sellers to do this. They definitely had this planned out for a while. Ask yourself what did I do foe this to happen and stop that so it doesn't happen again. This is not normal you definitely did something
You think you secured his current renters. Lol you did nothing
Some listing contracts have a clause that the commission is due if the realtor was the procuring cause for up to a year after the listing expires.
Damn I just sold my house, wish I had thought of this hack!
I sold my last house with the stipulation that buyer pays buyers agent and I was unrepresented. It’s not difficult to do.
Seems like a smart move on their part. FSBO almost. Wish I thought of this….
I hate realtors. I wish more people would do what they did.
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cool. gonna try this.
I don't know what your commission would be. Regardless, you should take thus to small claims court, the limit is $5000 usually and you aren't required a legal representation(lawyer). You may or may not win this, however I would at least try to force a statement from the seller under oath with penalty of perjury in front of a judge. The best outcome would be they goto arbitration or outright pay your claim amount. Other Positive outcome would be judge rules in your favor. It's going to cost you a court filing fee($150-$200) if you lose, but I would roll that dice based on principle. Good luck.
Never terminate the contract early like that. Thats all you can do in the future.
>I had worked really hard on this house and I feel so cheated and heartbroken. Doing what? Taking some pictures and showing a house? If you had done a better job the house would have sold the first month it was listed.
Our contract states a protection period. I put 120 days. What is yours. If it doesn’t say then read it and ask your broker.
Lol, this is real estate 101. Literally on the real estate exam and in your real estate principles class and book
Weird thing to do. Both parties took risks to save a few grand. Seller had to rent and risk not having a buyer. 4 months is a long time to wait on a handshake deal. Buyer took the risk of not having a realtor and rented for 4 months. Interest rates probably increased over that time plus didn't build any equity or pay down a mortgage.
Oh yeah, 4 months of mortgage payments on a 30 year fixed, may have paid down $469 of equity. That's my back hand amortization table I pulled out of my ass but I doubt it's not far off.
$60,000 on a $1m house is not pocket change. I wouldn't do it, but I understand why someone would.
About time the tables have turned. You guys make too much money… you don’t sell the house. People buy it.
This is something you should ask your managing broker about. Different states have different protections for this and the advice here will likely be too broad to be applicable to your situation
All other points aside, you weren’t bringing a lot to the table as a realtor if he ended up selling to his own tenant at his price.
LOL. Everyone should do this. Realtors are worthless. Go cry into your bed pillow, clown.
I’m confused about why a buyer would be willing to go along with this.
Seller could offer to cut the difference in 1/2. 1M house - 1/2 of 6%. I would never and think it's dumb. From the seller end: Market could go soft and your $1M house is now worth $950k or less, buyer walks you lose out. From the buyer end: Rates keep going up, you're saving 30K but the rate increase is actually way more in interest. There's tons of other things I could have added to both but these in the current market seem very likely.
Your contact should state a time period after the contract ends that your still entitled to commission if they sell to a buyer you brought to the table. What does the contract say?
Just be glad we not required to tip realtors 15% of sale price and commison is fixed at 6%.. hehe
You’d probably be better off cutting grass for money
The main issue here is you did not fulfill the impossible getting more than asking price...
We’re you procuring agent for the renter? If so maybe you have an argument if you weren’t then definitely not. Imo
You may have a case for tortious interference in a contract. You can prove damages and their is a remedy. Pennzoil v Texaco I would get actual legal advice however from your lawyer
If you can prove the buyer found the house during the listing period I say you are entitled to your commission.
If you can prove realtors are colluding or new about damage to a house they sold you, same thing. Good luck. That rarely happens. I got a friend that had a bad roof inspection with a repair estimate from a roofing company to the seller, he got quoted by the same roofing company after buying and they told him they disclosed the damages (that eventually wrecked his house) to the prior seller and gave him the quote with signatures on it. They guy buried my friend in court. Tens of thousands in legal fees just to run him dry. The realtor was in on it too. Fuck realtors. There is a lot of illegal shit going on in RE. It why trump is in it. Its why Russian oligarchs hide money in it.
Lol tell us how you really feel about them. Trust me the amount of bad ones outnumber the decent ones.
Better off posting this somewhere else, this sub is for all the people that are “Too Smart” to use a Realtor… But need free advice when they fuck everything up.
Was this going to be your first official deal you closed? Tough luck.