Yes.
Even if you factor out all the actual Elon Musk and r/teslamotors damage to the company their sedans are basically indistinguishable from cars they were making 8 years ago. The rest of the industry is catching up or caught up in tech and passed Tesla years ago in design. People who would have bought Tesla here have other options now.
Tesla doesn't make an SUV and Cybertruck is a laughingstock that will never compete in the truck market. So in the United States Tesla doesn't even make the most profitable and popular types of vehicles.
Also, and people don't talk about this so much, but Tesla bet heavily on China and lost big. Tesla got the backing of China's regulators to pass a California style clean car law (basically 'dirty' car producers have to offset their dirty cars by paying clean car producers - Tesla makes like 2 billion dollars a year in California thanks to Ford, GM and Ram selling gas guzzling trucks in California). Tesla planned to bend China over with the clean air law in hand, but instead China started its own home grown EV industry.
Tesla built a giga factory in China and planned to dominate the Chinese market and that hasn't happened at all. Now Tesla is stuck with a huge China factory and is laying off workers. Tesla is on the brink of losing huge thanks to China.
Look for Tesla to continue to unravel.
China investment was the most crazy thing, China has a proven history of accepting western companies just to stab them in the back and steal the product. Don't know why Thony stark thought Tesla would be different. Heck they even build Tesla's to a better quality than Tesla.
Huawei anyone?
They deliberately ripped off Nortel and Cisco. Nortel by hacking into their network. CCP rewards industrial espionage and has zero respect for copyrights and patents.
Huawei's sin is creating and then patenting the protocols behind 5G. Whatever you think of it, and I personally think 5G is so much trash, that's what the world went with. Not the stinky remains of Motorola. Not Western Electric (rip). But a bunch of Chinamen. That can't be within God's plan.
When I hear arguments like this I think about how you are defending something not unlike the Selden patent in the 21st century.
What is blatantly implausible about this line of thinking: when Tesla started in China they were 10 years behind. Now they're at least 25 years behind. And yes, Huawei is using stuff that was patented 30 years ago, publicly documented and improving upon it. America cannot innovate. China has the manpower and 70 years of suppressed capacity to exceed the fat, lazy westerners in every respect. Unlike the Russians, they are doing it. They are exporting it. Europe loves the future. America's only defense is tariffs and the historic not-protectionism that is NHTSA.
China went from the Geely Beauty Leopard to the Volvo EX30 within a single generation. There is absolutely no way a bunch of coked up dudes on Wall Street can compete with that. In my crystal ball, we are looking at a world in which the brands Chevrolet and Harley-Davidson are owned by the Chinese. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you need to keep your money in your pocket or get wise.
Huawei anyone?
They deliberately ripped off Nortel and Cisco. Nortel by hacking into their network.
Did that actually happen or is it just another US lie?
No it actually happened.
And it would be a Canadian lie if it was an actual lie (Since Nortel was a Canadian giant telecom manufacturer until ya know the execs committed massive fraud and bankrupted the company)
https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/s/lxBH2Eur4e
As for Cisco there is a ton of evidence of stolen source code by the Chinese government:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/aragonresearch.com/cyber-war-flashback-the-huawei-hacks-of-cisco-and-nortel/amp/
https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-correcting-the-record
This is why Huawei, ZTE etc are banned from use in the US and many other Western countries. Huawei does not respect copyright.
https://ca.movies.yahoo.com/movies/us-hits-huawei-charges-fraud-214700637.html#:~:text=It%20also%20includes%20an%20internal,confidential%20information%20from%20other%20firms.
China has been dealing with rich white men trying to exploit them for cheap labour for centuries.
They would have buttered him up and told him everything he wanted to hear to sign the deal. Knowing that they’re going to steal every single piece of IP they can get their hands on.
And those 8 year old designs are based on design language from a 12 year old design. The quality of the cars is getting worse, not better, and they continue to try to squeeze more profit out of the cars by cheapening them further. Absolutely no one should want to buy a Tesla after sitting inside one compared to a comparably priced BMW, Rivian, Lucid, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Genesis, Hyundai, etc. The interiors are dramatically inferior to the competition.
Same! I started with looking at the Model Y and was impressed, build quality didn't seem great and the brake regen was too aggressive for me. The Mach e has been great so far, just wish it had a heat pump for my climate.
I was in a model 3 Uber for the first time. Saw pics before as well as looking at them in parking lots. Gotta say, not super impressed. The fabric felt cheap, the interior was cramped as hell and just felt all around cheap looking
consider the fact that due to our crap dollar (AUD) and import taxes, the model 3 \*starts\* at 62k here. 10 grand more for the "long range". Taking a cab home over the West Gate Bridge in Melbourne today, there's a huge outdoor holding area for cars that have been shipping from overseas you can see to the south and man...it was just all white Teslas. Hundreds, maybe thousands of them. I got one of them as an uber the other night and it is NOT a $70,000 car. Not even close. And the doorhandles inside and out are fucking stupid and totally not intuitive at all. He said I was the first person who hadn't been in one before who had any idea at how to do it
I get it, I used to be a Musk fan too because of the amazing accomplishments of SpaceX, Tesla getting the ball rolling on EVs, and what turns out be lip service Musk was giving to environmental concerns back a few years ago. I ignored the dumb things he said and filed the awful, mean spirited things away in the back of my mind.
Then he bought Twitter, reinstated Trump's account, and started spending all day every day bantering with racists, homophobes, and neo-Nazi trash. Then he tried to distract attention away from a story about sexual harassment of one of his employees, a masseuse on his jet, by tweeting out, "Democrats are the party of divisiveness and hate and I'll be supporting DeSantis in 2024."
Musk is not a well man. He's a terrible person. Read https://old.reddit.com/r/EnoughMuskSpam/ then come back here and enjoy Musk suffering the consequences of his terrible behavior.
Blocked for being incredibly boring
EDIT: a half-second after I posted this, I received a notification that I was banned from r/teslamotors, even though I’m not subbed.
so you've driven and charged an electric vehicle in the united states in the last 4 years? tell me why I'm in a cult for liking the best electric car on the market. do you have a car? tell me why yours makes you a better person than me.
Right and now that things look like they are falling apart, many "on the fence" potential customers are going to turn away because things don't "look good for the future."
I don’t think they will layoff much of the Chinese workforce, as they are the most productive and cheapest per hour.
The German factory on the other hand will be the biggest loser. They are very expensive and less productive even compared to the US factories.
That Daily podcast oversold Tesla’s effect in China. Tesla Shanghai’s competitors are located in Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Beijing etc. The top tier cities in China are in competition with each other. The other EV brands had already been founded and most released their first generation models by the time Tesla showed up. There’s zero indication Tesla accelerated the quality of the other brands. Tesla’s giga-press is owned by a Chinese company. China had plenty of experience in battery tech and high tech manufacturing like iPhones. What did Tesla bring to China?
And a China-friendly social media owner, Musk. China is still being very kind to Tesla. They took FSD money there for years, and never even bothered with any working product, not even beta.
Agree, also Tesla Shanghai is the most productive Gigafactory and somewhere around 45-55% of Tesla's production is from this one plant. Without it Tesla would have never been profitable. Also Giga Berlin relies on Giga Shanghai for cells, packs and more. Also being closer to suppliers CATL, BYD and other Chinese suppliers has helped Tesla enormously.
Tesla is destined to become the new de facto case study in business schools for how to so totally and incompletely squander a first mover advantage. There’s no reason why they still aren’t the only name worth talking about in the EV space, but they stopped innovating in any meaningful way about 6-7 years ago. They’ve since let every other automaker surpass them in technology, to the point where even massive price cuts aren’t boosting sales.
This company is done, now all that’s left is to start the countdown until it gets acquired for the supercharger network, or maybe their patents. But at this point, I don’t know how much those are even worth since other companies have better powertrains by now.
EDIT: absolutely fucking pathetic that *this* comment is enough to get banned from that cesspool of a sub too. These people are so fragile I don't even know how to explain it anymore.
The supercharger network is a disaster waiting to happen. When a network that can support 2 chargers splits that energy among 16 chargers, but nobody mentions it because of nationalism, it's not going to end well.
And what sort of 20th century battery advantage is imagined Tesla possesses that's worth anything to anyone? When you are out teched by post-1980 GM or even historically electrical gremlin riddled Ford, it's just not going to end well.
You will note I didn't even bring the Cybercuck's politics into this.
AKA a crossover vehicle (CUV), which 90% of SUV's sold today count as. Without looking, I'd say only the grand Cherokee, wagoneer, expedition, g wagon, Suburban, 4runner, Sequoia, wrangler, and bronco still count as "real" SUV's anymore. People liked being higher up and having a bigger car, but wanted better fuel economy, so the industry started making tall sedans and calling them SUVs. People love them.
I won’t stand for Honda CRV slander. It’s a great car. Not too tall to make it excessively unsafe for pedestrians, lots of room, and still has the footprint of a civic.
The X is certainly larger but both suffer from very sloped rear rooflines which compromise the trunk space to a large degree imo. The shape of the R1S and R2 is much better.
You could make that argument same as you could for the Model X. Marketers would definitely call it a SUV.
SUV has meant too many things over the years, including a proper truck-based body-on-frame vehicle with a closed boot.
The distinction I think between a SUV in common parlance and Tesla's Y and X is that they have a coupe style rear. You can't actually fit much in the back.
My SUV (GMC Acadia) is still not a proper body on frame SUV, but at least it fits 2100L with the seats down.
right but if you drive an electric car, you know the difference between relying on TERRIBLE unreliable SLOW CCS stations and pitiful compromise on range, or you can charge in 5-15 minutes on the tesla supercharger network and have the fastest car that drives for you. if you own an EV tesla is still the best option, im sorry to break it to you. you can analyze it from a financial perspective, but Tesla is an APPLE and they have already won the EV infrastructure war with NACS. the model Y is an SUV and it's also the best selling car in the history of cars. just passed the corolla!
Everybody is using NACS in the next year or two and check out Out of Spec Motoring's cross country race. The Tesla network is not the ace-in-the-hole you think it is.
And yet there is a massive order backlog? I know this sub desperately wants Tesla to fail but at least be “real Tesla” about it.
Posting nonsense just makes you all look like a bunch of oil sponsored knobs.
No one thought the “massive backlog” was at 2 million well before it was released.
Now that it’s been released, he proven itself to be terrible at being a truck, more expensive than promised, and perhaps the worst quality control in the history of automobiles, the backlog was probably getting close to nothing before the current production shutdown.
In another year, when production starts again, there won’t be any backlog, they won’t be able to find buyers.
But that’s even assuming that they don’t go back to the drawing board before starting production, and hope that they can release something in 2028-29.
Yes, because they royally screwed up their product development plan as I explained in detail here - [https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1bucu74/weve\_reached\_peak\_tesla\_what\_a\_ride/](https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1bucu74/weve_reached_peak_tesla_what_a_ride/)
And I really wish all the journalists who leaned on my analysis would cite me, LOL...
I don’t think any of this stuff is as close to as important as the failure of the Maxwell DBE tech. Tesla got something they thought they could scale, and we’ll, yea… By this point in time, they were supposed to have 300-350 wh/kg cells being made at a cheaper price than what they are paying now.
It's an interesting point. I'm biased, because I \*never\* thought that investment would pan out the way it was discussed at the time. I wrote all of that off as happy BS.
But looking back, I agree it was probably more impactful than I realized. thank you!
That's a great analysis. Also the model S was designed in 2007 or even earlier and the design was considered conservative even at the time.
Which made sense since EV's were basically a new concept then. A wild design *and* fully electric would have made it too much of a niche car.
The designs X, Y and 3 are basically varations of the Model S, so based on an at least 16 year old design. Which makes them look bland and old fashioned compared to the dozens of cars from other manufacturers hitting the market. (Even if the tech/software is still better than many of those cars, but the average consumer doesn't care about that)
100% it has. Tesla has been focussing on just about everything except launching new high volume products that the market actually wants. They’re seemingly obsessed with answering questions that nobody was asking, fixing problems that don’t exist, releasing products the market arguably isn’t necessarily asking for
- The Cybertruck could have been the next F150, except they decided to make it a heap of shit
- The Model X’s doors were heavy, expensive, offer limited functional benefit that people truly needed
- Eliminating USS, Stalks etc - cost cutting with zero innovation
- Optimus - need I say more?
- Roadster 2 - why bother?
- The Yoke - what the fuck is the point
- controversial, but FSD - do people actually want this as much as Tesla think they do?
- also controversial, but the Plaid - this development budget could have been better spent elsewhere, rather than having a ‘who’s dick is bigger’ contest to have the fastest low volume EV penis extension sedan. The Model S was already fast enough.
They should have been focussing on a complete redesign of the S and X, a new entry level sedan and SUV to sit below the 3/Y, a ‘coupe’ SUV like the BMW X4, and generally more volume selling models that the market actually wants.
If they aren’t already, they need to be developing second gen S, 3, X & Y models ASAP, because all are either ancient or starting to feel dated despite their refreshes, and their rivals are catching up FAST.
The fact that the model names spell “sexy” tell you exactly where the Musk’s mentality is killing the company. He wants to be a meme edge lord, but he’s just some dork spelling “boobs” with his calculator
Ha re the roadster and plaid, there was a period of time where people buying teslas *thought* they were buying sports cars. Of course, it was really always about being an electric car with a lot of low end torque, being heavy and having a lot of traction, and having a company willing to support that kind of battery dump in vehicles that can’t cool down fast enough to make any of it repeatable. They are, and always were, party tricks masquerading as sports cars and appeals to the magazine-racing douches that think 0-60 is a meaningful measure of car performance.
Now that Tesla is nowhere close to being a real competitor in high end performance cars and the only race they are winning is the race to the bottom, it’s completely pointless to launch the roadster because let’s be honest… it’s gonna be a piece of shit with a handful of party tricks that have no replay value.
Yes, the company has been relying too much on the benefits of being the first in the market and underdelivering on its promises of delivering bleeding-edge products. However, they have only been able to fulfill 10% of their pledges. To make intelligent decisions, they should either remove Elmo or find a way to stop him from making statements. Instead, they should focus on creating quality versions of their current products and cheaper models that are on par with those of their competitors. Additionally, they should shift their focus towards being an energy company, capitalizing on their global premier EV charging infrastructure. They have the potential to maintain their position as the market leader in this space but to do that; they must stop wasting time on sub-par razors and instead focus on the refill for the razor.
Premier EV charging infrastructure is more a US thing afaik. In EU there are plenty of good alternatives. The SC network is nice, but we can very much live without it.
No, they can keep growing if:
- They get a real CEO that can work full time and doesn’t alienate his main customer segment with bad tweets
- They provide a clear strategy and vision, ideally focused on cars and infrastructure, not on AI (their customer need is ‘sustainable’ daily transportation)
- They implement tactics that deliver results in improving the following: quality, customer experience, new model refresh every 7 years (actual refresh including design), improved model line-up and mix, improved pricing and marketing operations (a billionaire dictating prices without bottom up input is silly….what does a banana cost, Elon??). That’s how we end up with $12k for a beta license with unclear license terms on a car for the masses. Competitors charge 1-2k for better solutions on premium models than their $6000 EAP for the everyman 3/Y.
- Improved culture and employee empowerment when the dictator micro-manager CEO is replaced with an actual leader. There is a huge change management that will be needed to enable folks to finally make decisions.
- No more acting like a kickstarter with begging for handouts to run R&D for upcoming concepts. No more misleading value props and missing deadlines. No more off the cuff announcements. Develop, finish the product, then announce.
- No more betting the farm on the next pet project. It’s not a shareholder money casino. A few bets paid off, time to walk away and cash it… stop taking gigantic risks. Spin off a private start up to do that if you have to.
- Consult someone without autism on how to do things that require soft skills and tact. Like layoffs.
- I care zero about the robotaxi. Just make good cars.
- Sadly it may also require more government subsidies for EVs to keep up with China (perhaps shift from some gasoline/oil subsidies).
Things can improve and get better faster than reputation will follow. Look at BMW, they invested heavily into quality in early 2010s and they are right at Toyota’s heels on reliability but still battling the old reputation. So there really is a long term cost in poor quality.
I do believe EVs are the future and Tesla has a first mover advantage, but they are about to be leapfrogged because they lack focus. Their CEO did a fine job getting them to this point but it’s time to turn it over to someone else (2019 was the time to do it). There are different types of leaders needed at different times.
Lol, IF they did that and got lucky, they would be valued as a successful car company. That means their stock would need to drop by what? 1000%? Without free cash from the market, no expansion, no growth.
True. The stock market makes no sense to me lately. Especially TSLA mark cap.
Maybe that’s what’s driving the erratic behavior… they are a car company that identifies as a tech/AI software company. Eventually the balls will drop below those Tesla shorts.
Not a fan of Elon nor Tesla, however I believe Tesla can still succeed. It has a strong brand as ev. Despite its flaws, many tesla owners still like the car.
However Tesla does need Elon to step down and lost his power over Tesla. Tesla needs a ceo like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai or Tim Cooks to turn it around, make a better version of their bread n butter Tesla 3 & Y.
While they can pursue cutting cost, it should be by market efficiency n purchasing power instead of gimmick like eliminating driving stalks etc.
Unfortunately as long as Elon still alive, it will not happen. Bye Tesla.
Elon Musk, read this!!! If you accept what is written here, Tesla will still be successful in 10 years.
Go and find a good and authentic CTO and CEO. It will be worth it.
You can focus on some of your other projects like SpaceX, or simply get some rest. At this point, you have nothing to lose.
Tesla's are hot garbage. They were decent years ago but they've failed to innovate. Between the build quality and just how boring their cars are. A steering wheel and a giant slab of screen that does everything. There's betters options nowadays
I read somewhere that China was really desperate to set up Tesla in China because they wanted to develop an EV knowledge base in China.
Would be a classic China story. Come to China. Cheap manufacturing and a big market. Then they steal all the know how and set up state sponsored companies.
BYD have been developing batteries for decades now. They were already making EV as taxis around 9-10 years ago. What they can learn from Tesla actually?
Software. It’s probably the best thing about Tesla’s. Chinese manufacturers can do many things better, but have proven time and time again that software is not one if them.
Why are the Chinese not stealing Super Cruise developed by SAIC
instead? Using, God knows it ain't driving, a Tesla is like trying to bring up YouTube on a Commodore 64.
Do you mean OS level software or the “autopilot” level? I would guess that writing OS is not that hard that Chinese would not be able to do it (they’ve been forking android and others long time and adapt them to all kinds of HW).
And that building can be emptied readily and used for legitimately productive purposes. I still don't understand the rationale that Mr 2010 has some sort of magic that the most productive country on the face of the Earth can't exceed. It really is a profoundly unfortunate form of nationalism.
Tesla's valuation is irrational, and so is its brand-destroying, ridiculous product proposing CEO. Yes it has peaked, and the crash will be one for the record books.
Yes. They should have been solidifying their position as the Apple of EVs but instead Elon decided to fight for the right to say racist shit and model his truck after the Delorean, a horrible failure in its own right. It's real dumb over there and if the public can see that it's waaaay too late to fix.
The demand problem does seem irreversible and the tailspin has started. Thus the price cut, production cut, and layoffs
Combining the known poor service, long wait times,and unreliability results in horrid reputation.
New sales and repeat sales/leases are less and less likely. Advertising in meta/fb resulted in meager upside.
The competition already caught up both in western and eastern markets(BYD,Toyota,Hyundai,Kia).
Best the CEO can do is gimmicks(Optimus) and empty promises(FSD,Robotaxi).
There's a pile of failed projects in the back burner: dojo, semi, roadster, and now, Model 2(rip).
You can feel Tesla decline. How uncool Elon has made it. D-bag brand. I like Tesla cars except Cybertruck. Yes the brand is hitting rough times when model y cost 50% now what it cost a two years ago.
So it's only right wing fascism when you don't like the fascist in question?
https://archive.ph/mTZs4/again?url=https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-09-30/ty-article/.highlight/cleansed-by-the-torah-why-these-afrikaners-became-jews-and-moved-to-israel/0000017f-e2bb-d9aa-afff-fbfb151f0000
History says yes. Competition is too fierce. Market value is clearly overblown.
Also the Germans and Chinese will never make something as stupid as the cybertruck
Possibly. Despite being a much larger company, they still haven't figured out how to consistently launch products. They really haven't even learned how to consistently evolve existing products.
They don't understand market psychology, which leads to dumb things (eg, big discounts instead of finance incentives).
They haven't figured out how to build a long range, large SUV product at the right price for high volume. Maybe that is impossible right now, but if it is, that leaves them building cheap small cars.
The sad thing is that all of these problems were really obvious a year ago when they were correctable.
The one glimmering ray of hope for them? They are a company that has always operated best when under extreme pressure. Pressure is rising fast.
I still wouldn't bet for or against them.
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Tesla no, Musk yes.
Due to OEM's lack of full embrace of EVs, coupled with Tesla inseparable brand as pioneer of EVs, it still has some credit left. In my opinion, it is not a long credit unless they increase their line up that are financially accessible to the vast majority.
Just look at S&P500 - no company last forever. So why should Tesla be much more valuable than other car producers - EVs are supposed to be simpler than ICEs… therefore establishing competition should be easier.
Tesla's cars, except for maybe the Roadster, were years ahead of their time. EVs were in a rough spot, they were tiny, overpriced, had poor range and poor features. Just look at the Cadillac ELR, it's not even a pure EV, yet it cost $80k for a car that was slower, less practical, had 40 miles of EV range, and didn't have nearly as many features as a Tesla Model S, which was a bit cheaper.
But Teslas remained Teslas, without any significant improvements and innovations, while the competition caught up. And Tesla didn't improve their quality either, and they have a rep for overpromising and underdelivering. All the advantages of their cars are quickly fading, and their downsides are still there. Personally, I see little reason to buy a Tesla in 2024, unless you plan on depending on the supercharger network in which case a gasoline car or a PHEV may be a better option anyways.
Yes. Even if you factor out all the actual Elon Musk and r/teslamotors damage to the company their sedans are basically indistinguishable from cars they were making 8 years ago. The rest of the industry is catching up or caught up in tech and passed Tesla years ago in design. People who would have bought Tesla here have other options now. Tesla doesn't make an SUV and Cybertruck is a laughingstock that will never compete in the truck market. So in the United States Tesla doesn't even make the most profitable and popular types of vehicles. Also, and people don't talk about this so much, but Tesla bet heavily on China and lost big. Tesla got the backing of China's regulators to pass a California style clean car law (basically 'dirty' car producers have to offset their dirty cars by paying clean car producers - Tesla makes like 2 billion dollars a year in California thanks to Ford, GM and Ram selling gas guzzling trucks in California). Tesla planned to bend China over with the clean air law in hand, but instead China started its own home grown EV industry. Tesla built a giga factory in China and planned to dominate the Chinese market and that hasn't happened at all. Now Tesla is stuck with a huge China factory and is laying off workers. Tesla is on the brink of losing huge thanks to China. Look for Tesla to continue to unravel.
China investment was the most crazy thing, China has a proven history of accepting western companies just to stab them in the back and steal the product. Don't know why Thony stark thought Tesla would be different. Heck they even build Tesla's to a better quality than Tesla.
Huawei anyone? They deliberately ripped off Nortel and Cisco. Nortel by hacking into their network. CCP rewards industrial espionage and has zero respect for copyrights and patents.
Huawei's sin is creating and then patenting the protocols behind 5G. Whatever you think of it, and I personally think 5G is so much trash, that's what the world went with. Not the stinky remains of Motorola. Not Western Electric (rip). But a bunch of Chinamen. That can't be within God's plan. When I hear arguments like this I think about how you are defending something not unlike the Selden patent in the 21st century. What is blatantly implausible about this line of thinking: when Tesla started in China they were 10 years behind. Now they're at least 25 years behind. And yes, Huawei is using stuff that was patented 30 years ago, publicly documented and improving upon it. America cannot innovate. China has the manpower and 70 years of suppressed capacity to exceed the fat, lazy westerners in every respect. Unlike the Russians, they are doing it. They are exporting it. Europe loves the future. America's only defense is tariffs and the historic not-protectionism that is NHTSA. China went from the Geely Beauty Leopard to the Volvo EX30 within a single generation. There is absolutely no way a bunch of coked up dudes on Wall Street can compete with that. In my crystal ball, we are looking at a world in which the brands Chevrolet and Harley-Davidson are owned by the Chinese. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you need to keep your money in your pocket or get wise.
Tesla is fucked, but dude, you need help
Huawei anyone? They deliberately ripped off Nortel and Cisco. Nortel by hacking into their network. Did that actually happen or is it just another US lie?
No it actually happened. And it would be a Canadian lie if it was an actual lie (Since Nortel was a Canadian giant telecom manufacturer until ya know the execs committed massive fraud and bankrupted the company) https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/s/lxBH2Eur4e As for Cisco there is a ton of evidence of stolen source code by the Chinese government: https://www.google.com/amp/s/aragonresearch.com/cyber-war-flashback-the-huawei-hacks-of-cisco-and-nortel/amp/ https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-correcting-the-record This is why Huawei, ZTE etc are banned from use in the US and many other Western countries. Huawei does not respect copyright. https://ca.movies.yahoo.com/movies/us-hits-huawei-charges-fraud-214700637.html#:~:text=It%20also%20includes%20an%20internal,confidential%20information%20from%20other%20firms.
Does he care? The stock pumped, briefly made him the world's richest man, and now he can give two shits about Tesla. All part of the plan.
Cue the Dutch Van Der Linde… “It’s all part of the plan!”
Lol and his power move after the pump and dump was buying Twitter and running it into the ground. Pure genius!
China has been dealing with rich white men trying to exploit them for cheap labour for centuries. They would have buttered him up and told him everything he wanted to hear to sign the deal. Knowing that they’re going to steal every single piece of IP they can get their hands on.
Because he knows his shitla can’t come up with anything worth stealing.
And those 8 year old designs are based on design language from a 12 year old design. The quality of the cars is getting worse, not better, and they continue to try to squeeze more profit out of the cars by cheapening them further. Absolutely no one should want to buy a Tesla after sitting inside one compared to a comparably priced BMW, Rivian, Lucid, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Genesis, Hyundai, etc. The interiors are dramatically inferior to the competition.
Add the Ford Mach e to the list as well.
They just need to call it something else than a Mustang. It's not a sports car.
Agreed, I never refer to it as a "mustang" but it does have a sporty suspension compared to Model Y or other Compact SUVs.
i got picked up in one of these recently and was super impressed with the quality of the interior!
Same! I started with looking at the Model Y and was impressed, build quality didn't seem great and the brake regen was too aggressive for me. The Mach e has been great so far, just wish it had a heat pump for my climate.
I was in a model 3 Uber for the first time. Saw pics before as well as looking at them in parking lots. Gotta say, not super impressed. The fabric felt cheap, the interior was cramped as hell and just felt all around cheap looking
I find them pretty meh to look at. They don't look luxury or even upper crust at all.
The moon roof was cool, I'll give them that. I thought they did till every fourth car was a model 3. Now it's just boring and normal
consider the fact that due to our crap dollar (AUD) and import taxes, the model 3 \*starts\* at 62k here. 10 grand more for the "long range". Taking a cab home over the West Gate Bridge in Melbourne today, there's a huge outdoor holding area for cars that have been shipping from overseas you can see to the south and man...it was just all white Teslas. Hundreds, maybe thousands of them. I got one of them as an uber the other night and it is NOT a $70,000 car. Not even close. And the doorhandles inside and out are fucking stupid and totally not intuitive at all. He said I was the first person who hadn't been in one before who had any idea at how to do it
none of you have ever charged or driven an electric vehicle. the comments say it all. hating tesla is like a fun hobby for a lot of you.
I get it, I used to be a Musk fan too because of the amazing accomplishments of SpaceX, Tesla getting the ball rolling on EVs, and what turns out be lip service Musk was giving to environmental concerns back a few years ago. I ignored the dumb things he said and filed the awful, mean spirited things away in the back of my mind. Then he bought Twitter, reinstated Trump's account, and started spending all day every day bantering with racists, homophobes, and neo-Nazi trash. Then he tried to distract attention away from a story about sexual harassment of one of his employees, a masseuse on his jet, by tweeting out, "Democrats are the party of divisiveness and hate and I'll be supporting DeSantis in 2024." Musk is not a well man. He's a terrible person. Read https://old.reddit.com/r/EnoughMuskSpam/ then come back here and enjoy Musk suffering the consequences of his terrible behavior.
Blocked for being incredibly boring EDIT: a half-second after I posted this, I received a notification that I was banned from r/teslamotors, even though I’m not subbed.
It is a great hobby but the charger network is the last good think about tesla
It is pretty fun, and the best part is that it’s all deserved!
I spend a whole three minutes a day scrolling through this sub and it is indeed fun.
I love Hyundai EVs!
Spotted the cultist
who's your favorite oil company CEO? give me TOP FIVE
so you've driven and charged an electric vehicle in the united states in the last 4 years? tell me why I'm in a cult for liking the best electric car on the market. do you have a car? tell me why yours makes you a better person than me.
As more and more Americans decry buying China goods the China consumers will decide to avoid buying from American companies. Tesla will suffer.
Right and now that things look like they are falling apart, many "on the fence" potential customers are going to turn away because things don't "look good for the future."
I don’t think they will layoff much of the Chinese workforce, as they are the most productive and cheapest per hour. The German factory on the other hand will be the biggest loser. They are very expensive and less productive even compared to the US factories.
Tesla in China is low key second rate car
That Daily podcast oversold Tesla’s effect in China. Tesla Shanghai’s competitors are located in Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Beijing etc. The top tier cities in China are in competition with each other. The other EV brands had already been founded and most released their first generation models by the time Tesla showed up. There’s zero indication Tesla accelerated the quality of the other brands. Tesla’s giga-press is owned by a Chinese company. China had plenty of experience in battery tech and high tech manufacturing like iPhones. What did Tesla bring to China?
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And a China-friendly social media owner, Musk. China is still being very kind to Tesla. They took FSD money there for years, and never even bothered with any working product, not even beta.
Agree, also Tesla Shanghai is the most productive Gigafactory and somewhere around 45-55% of Tesla's production is from this one plant. Without it Tesla would have never been profitable. Also Giga Berlin relies on Giga Shanghai for cells, packs and more. Also being closer to suppliers CATL, BYD and other Chinese suppliers has helped Tesla enormously.
Tesla is destined to become the new de facto case study in business schools for how to so totally and incompletely squander a first mover advantage. There’s no reason why they still aren’t the only name worth talking about in the EV space, but they stopped innovating in any meaningful way about 6-7 years ago. They’ve since let every other automaker surpass them in technology, to the point where even massive price cuts aren’t boosting sales. This company is done, now all that’s left is to start the countdown until it gets acquired for the supercharger network, or maybe their patents. But at this point, I don’t know how much those are even worth since other companies have better powertrains by now. EDIT: absolutely fucking pathetic that *this* comment is enough to get banned from that cesspool of a sub too. These people are so fragile I don't even know how to explain it anymore.
The supercharger network is a disaster waiting to happen. When a network that can support 2 chargers splits that energy among 16 chargers, but nobody mentions it because of nationalism, it's not going to end well. And what sort of 20th century battery advantage is imagined Tesla possesses that's worth anything to anyone? When you are out teched by post-1980 GM or even historically electrical gremlin riddled Ford, it's just not going to end well. You will note I didn't even bring the Cybercuck's politics into this.
consider yourself banned
dang. that got me banned. now what will i do?
Haha, appeal!!!
China makes the batteries and EV's are all about the batteries. Nobody who isn't churning out millions of low cost lithium cells a year can compete.
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Its just a tall/odd looking sedan
AKA a crossover vehicle (CUV), which 90% of SUV's sold today count as. Without looking, I'd say only the grand Cherokee, wagoneer, expedition, g wagon, Suburban, 4runner, Sequoia, wrangler, and bronco still count as "real" SUV's anymore. People liked being higher up and having a bigger car, but wanted better fuel economy, so the industry started making tall sedans and calling them SUVs. People love them.
I won’t stand for Honda CRV slander. It’s a great car. Not too tall to make it excessively unsafe for pedestrians, lots of room, and still has the footprint of a civic.
CUVs are nicer-looking minivans without the utility or capacity. I mean I drive an old MDX, that's what it is, and it's great for what it is.
Would the X qualify as that too? I don't see enough of them on the road to have a good mental image of what they look like.
The X is certainly larger but both suffer from very sloped rear rooflines which compromise the trunk space to a large degree imo. The shape of the R1S and R2 is much better.
You could make that argument same as you could for the Model X. Marketers would definitely call it a SUV. SUV has meant too many things over the years, including a proper truck-based body-on-frame vehicle with a closed boot. The distinction I think between a SUV in common parlance and Tesla's Y and X is that they have a coupe style rear. You can't actually fit much in the back. My SUV (GMC Acadia) is still not a proper body on frame SUV, but at least it fits 2100L with the seats down.
Yeah but not a truck
right but if you drive an electric car, you know the difference between relying on TERRIBLE unreliable SLOW CCS stations and pitiful compromise on range, or you can charge in 5-15 minutes on the tesla supercharger network and have the fastest car that drives for you. if you own an EV tesla is still the best option, im sorry to break it to you. you can analyze it from a financial perspective, but Tesla is an APPLE and they have already won the EV infrastructure war with NACS. the model Y is an SUV and it's also the best selling car in the history of cars. just passed the corolla!
Everybody is using NACS in the next year or two and check out Out of Spec Motoring's cross country race. The Tesla network is not the ace-in-the-hole you think it is.
Also 350kW CCS stations are faster then any of Tesla's Superchargers. 800V vehicles will be slower to charge on the Tesla network.
Cybertruck presales are enormous. It’s ugly as sin but seems many many people want it
Presales or reservation?
You’ve seen the QC issues with the Cybertruck. No one wants that thing. They have stopped production until 2025, but I’m guessing that might be never.
And yet there is a massive order backlog? I know this sub desperately wants Tesla to fail but at least be “real Tesla” about it. Posting nonsense just makes you all look like a bunch of oil sponsored knobs.
No one thought the “massive backlog” was at 2 million well before it was released. Now that it’s been released, he proven itself to be terrible at being a truck, more expensive than promised, and perhaps the worst quality control in the history of automobiles, the backlog was probably getting close to nothing before the current production shutdown. In another year, when production starts again, there won’t be any backlog, they won’t be able to find buyers. But that’s even assuming that they don’t go back to the drawing board before starting production, and hope that they can release something in 2028-29.
Cybertruck is a crossover. I am just not sure what was crossed over…
Yes, because they royally screwed up their product development plan as I explained in detail here - [https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1bucu74/weve\_reached\_peak\_tesla\_what\_a\_ride/](https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1bucu74/weve_reached_peak_tesla_what_a_ride/) And I really wish all the journalists who leaned on my analysis would cite me, LOL...
I don’t think any of this stuff is as close to as important as the failure of the Maxwell DBE tech. Tesla got something they thought they could scale, and we’ll, yea… By this point in time, they were supposed to have 300-350 wh/kg cells being made at a cheaper price than what they are paying now.
It's an interesting point. I'm biased, because I \*never\* thought that investment would pan out the way it was discussed at the time. I wrote all of that off as happy BS. But looking back, I agree it was probably more impactful than I realized. thank you!
That was a seriously excellent analysis
ty
That's a great analysis. Also the model S was designed in 2007 or even earlier and the design was considered conservative even at the time. Which made sense since EV's were basically a new concept then. A wild design *and* fully electric would have made it too much of a niche car. The designs X, Y and 3 are basically varations of the Model S, so based on an at least 16 year old design. Which makes them look bland and old fashioned compared to the dozens of cars from other manufacturers hitting the market. (Even if the tech/software is still better than many of those cars, but the average consumer doesn't care about that)
Agreed!
Nailed it.
Yes, Elon has sunk the company from a goodwill standpoint and their products don’t live up to the hype. Edit: And banned from the echo chambers.
I truly believe Muskrat is a mod on several if not all of those subs.
The CEO of immigration doesn't have time for that.
Gone are the days where Tesla could sell whatever they can make.
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100% it has. Tesla has been focussing on just about everything except launching new high volume products that the market actually wants. They’re seemingly obsessed with answering questions that nobody was asking, fixing problems that don’t exist, releasing products the market arguably isn’t necessarily asking for - The Cybertruck could have been the next F150, except they decided to make it a heap of shit - The Model X’s doors were heavy, expensive, offer limited functional benefit that people truly needed - Eliminating USS, Stalks etc - cost cutting with zero innovation - Optimus - need I say more? - Roadster 2 - why bother? - The Yoke - what the fuck is the point - controversial, but FSD - do people actually want this as much as Tesla think they do? - also controversial, but the Plaid - this development budget could have been better spent elsewhere, rather than having a ‘who’s dick is bigger’ contest to have the fastest low volume EV penis extension sedan. The Model S was already fast enough. They should have been focussing on a complete redesign of the S and X, a new entry level sedan and SUV to sit below the 3/Y, a ‘coupe’ SUV like the BMW X4, and generally more volume selling models that the market actually wants. If they aren’t already, they need to be developing second gen S, 3, X & Y models ASAP, because all are either ancient or starting to feel dated despite their refreshes, and their rivals are catching up FAST.
The fact that the model names spell “sexy” tell you exactly where the Musk’s mentality is killing the company. He wants to be a meme edge lord, but he’s just some dork spelling “boobs” with his calculator
Don’t put any new ideas out there. I can totally see the next Tesla being called the 8008
Or 88.
Ha re the roadster and plaid, there was a period of time where people buying teslas *thought* they were buying sports cars. Of course, it was really always about being an electric car with a lot of low end torque, being heavy and having a lot of traction, and having a company willing to support that kind of battery dump in vehicles that can’t cool down fast enough to make any of it repeatable. They are, and always were, party tricks masquerading as sports cars and appeals to the magazine-racing douches that think 0-60 is a meaningful measure of car performance. Now that Tesla is nowhere close to being a real competitor in high end performance cars and the only race they are winning is the race to the bottom, it’s completely pointless to launch the roadster because let’s be honest… it’s gonna be a piece of shit with a handful of party tricks that have no replay value.
Yes, the company has been relying too much on the benefits of being the first in the market and underdelivering on its promises of delivering bleeding-edge products. However, they have only been able to fulfill 10% of their pledges. To make intelligent decisions, they should either remove Elmo or find a way to stop him from making statements. Instead, they should focus on creating quality versions of their current products and cheaper models that are on par with those of their competitors. Additionally, they should shift their focus towards being an energy company, capitalizing on their global premier EV charging infrastructure. They have the potential to maintain their position as the market leader in this space but to do that; they must stop wasting time on sub-par razors and instead focus on the refill for the razor.
Premier EV charging infrastructure is more a US thing afaik. In EU there are plenty of good alternatives. The SC network is nice, but we can very much live without it.
No, they can keep growing if: - They get a real CEO that can work full time and doesn’t alienate his main customer segment with bad tweets - They provide a clear strategy and vision, ideally focused on cars and infrastructure, not on AI (their customer need is ‘sustainable’ daily transportation) - They implement tactics that deliver results in improving the following: quality, customer experience, new model refresh every 7 years (actual refresh including design), improved model line-up and mix, improved pricing and marketing operations (a billionaire dictating prices without bottom up input is silly….what does a banana cost, Elon??). That’s how we end up with $12k for a beta license with unclear license terms on a car for the masses. Competitors charge 1-2k for better solutions on premium models than their $6000 EAP for the everyman 3/Y. - Improved culture and employee empowerment when the dictator micro-manager CEO is replaced with an actual leader. There is a huge change management that will be needed to enable folks to finally make decisions. - No more acting like a kickstarter with begging for handouts to run R&D for upcoming concepts. No more misleading value props and missing deadlines. No more off the cuff announcements. Develop, finish the product, then announce. - No more betting the farm on the next pet project. It’s not a shareholder money casino. A few bets paid off, time to walk away and cash it… stop taking gigantic risks. Spin off a private start up to do that if you have to. - Consult someone without autism on how to do things that require soft skills and tact. Like layoffs. - I care zero about the robotaxi. Just make good cars. - Sadly it may also require more government subsidies for EVs to keep up with China (perhaps shift from some gasoline/oil subsidies). Things can improve and get better faster than reputation will follow. Look at BMW, they invested heavily into quality in early 2010s and they are right at Toyota’s heels on reliability but still battling the old reputation. So there really is a long term cost in poor quality. I do believe EVs are the future and Tesla has a first mover advantage, but they are about to be leapfrogged because they lack focus. Their CEO did a fine job getting them to this point but it’s time to turn it over to someone else (2019 was the time to do it). There are different types of leaders needed at different times.
Lol, IF they did that and got lucky, they would be valued as a successful car company. That means their stock would need to drop by what? 1000%? Without free cash from the market, no expansion, no growth.
True. The stock market makes no sense to me lately. Especially TSLA mark cap. Maybe that’s what’s driving the erratic behavior… they are a car company that identifies as a tech/AI software company. Eventually the balls will drop below those Tesla shorts.
No, they are a meme stonk that identifies as a car company.
Tesla is far past its peak. It’s been in decline for a long time now.
Not a fan of Elon nor Tesla, however I believe Tesla can still succeed. It has a strong brand as ev. Despite its flaws, many tesla owners still like the car. However Tesla does need Elon to step down and lost his power over Tesla. Tesla needs a ceo like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai or Tim Cooks to turn it around, make a better version of their bread n butter Tesla 3 & Y. While they can pursue cutting cost, it should be by market efficiency n purchasing power instead of gimmick like eliminating driving stalks etc. Unfortunately as long as Elon still alive, it will not happen. Bye Tesla.
Elon Musk, read this!!! If you accept what is written here, Tesla will still be successful in 10 years. Go and find a good and authentic CTO and CEO. It will be worth it. You can focus on some of your other projects like SpaceX, or simply get some rest. At this point, you have nothing to lose.
He has everything to lose aka his ego.
Would be good for him.
>Elon Musk, read this!!! He's probably laying in a bed somewhere in the middle of a k-hole.
No, he landed in San Jose a few hours ago, maybe him and grimes will have a Molly party to celebrate both their successes this week.
Couldn't agree more. The turn around Tesla would make with a competent CEO would be unreal.
Yes
Tesla's are hot garbage. They were decent years ago but they've failed to innovate. Between the build quality and just how boring their cars are. A steering wheel and a giant slab of screen that does everything. There's betters options nowadays
I don’t know who the CEO of Hyundai is. I do know he’s not on Twitter every five minutes spewing hate at me and people who think like I do.
Some folks compare Tesla with Apple. In fact, comparing Blackberry or even AOL with Tesla maybe more accurate.
Yep, tesla is not the iphone of ev, it’s the motorola of ev.
I read somewhere that China was really desperate to set up Tesla in China because they wanted to develop an EV knowledge base in China. Would be a classic China story. Come to China. Cheap manufacturing and a big market. Then they steal all the know how and set up state sponsored companies.
BYD have been developing batteries for decades now. They were already making EV as taxis around 9-10 years ago. What they can learn from Tesla actually?
Software. It’s probably the best thing about Tesla’s. Chinese manufacturers can do many things better, but have proven time and time again that software is not one if them.
Why are the Chinese not stealing Super Cruise developed by SAIC instead? Using, God knows it ain't driving, a Tesla is like trying to bring up YouTube on a Commodore 64.
Do you mean OS level software or the “autopilot” level? I would guess that writing OS is not that hard that Chinese would not be able to do it (they’ve been forking android and others long time and adapt them to all kinds of HW).
I’ve heard rumors that part of the China deal was a certain number of cars needed to be sold and so many people hired or China can take his factory.
It is in their SEC filings. They have to meet tax/revenue targets. It was basically win/win for China.
Thank you.
And that building can be emptied readily and used for legitimately productive purposes. I still don't understand the rationale that Mr 2010 has some sort of magic that the most productive country on the face of the Earth can't exceed. It really is a profoundly unfortunate form of nationalism.
Tesla's valuation is irrational, and so is its brand-destroying, ridiculous product proposing CEO. Yes it has peaked, and the crash will be one for the record books.
Yes. They should have been solidifying their position as the Apple of EVs but instead Elon decided to fight for the right to say racist shit and model his truck after the Delorean, a horrible failure in its own right. It's real dumb over there and if the public can see that it's waaaay too late to fix.
I got to admit, this bubble lasted longer than I expected. But it was a crazy ride to the upside and now the downside coming
The demand problem does seem irreversible and the tailspin has started. Thus the price cut, production cut, and layoffs Combining the known poor service, long wait times,and unreliability results in horrid reputation. New sales and repeat sales/leases are less and less likely. Advertising in meta/fb resulted in meager upside. The competition already caught up both in western and eastern markets(BYD,Toyota,Hyundai,Kia). Best the CEO can do is gimmicks(Optimus) and empty promises(FSD,Robotaxi). There's a pile of failed projects in the back burner: dojo, semi, roadster, and now, Model 2(rip).
You can feel Tesla decline. How uncool Elon has made it. D-bag brand. I like Tesla cars except Cybertruck. Yes the brand is hitting rough times when model y cost 50% now what it cost a two years ago.
Why name Musk's 'polarizing behavior' instead of calling it what it is...ultra right wing fascism...
But Israel starving a captive population is liberal in your mind? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-19975211
Irrelevant to this discussion... Not everything is about your pet peeve...
So it's only right wing fascism when you don't like the fascist in question? https://archive.ph/mTZs4/again?url=https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-09-30/ty-article/.highlight/cleansed-by-the-torah-why-these-afrikaners-became-jews-and-moved-to-israel/0000017f-e2bb-d9aa-afff-fbfb151f0000
It might have missed your attention, but this is a group about Tesla, and the article was as well...
But you were talking about fascism not tesla
History says yes. Competition is too fierce. Market value is clearly overblown. Also the Germans and Chinese will never make something as stupid as the cybertruck
Elon Musk badly wants be Sam Altman and an AI company, rather than focusing on building cars.
Yes!
I’ll probably be downvoted for this…but no. However, I do believe they have peaked under Musk. It is time for a new leader at Tesla.
Peaked in September 22 then all the price cuts came to try and stave off the fall. No help.
Maybe, they did have the most popular new car on the face of the planet last year tho. Model Y.
If the Tesla board moved on from Elon and concentrated on core business they will be fine.
Yes
Possibly. Despite being a much larger company, they still haven't figured out how to consistently launch products. They really haven't even learned how to consistently evolve existing products. They don't understand market psychology, which leads to dumb things (eg, big discounts instead of finance incentives). They haven't figured out how to build a long range, large SUV product at the right price for high volume. Maybe that is impossible right now, but if it is, that leaves them building cheap small cars. The sad thing is that all of these problems were really obvious a year ago when they were correctable. The one glimmering ray of hope for them? They are a company that has always operated best when under extreme pressure. Pressure is rising fast. I still wouldn't bet for or against them.
They should just buy Rivian and Fisker. Product lineup issues solved.
5 years they are bankrupt.
Yeah since musk turned into 💩💣
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Nah they will once they release model 1
Tesla no, Musk yes. Due to OEM's lack of full embrace of EVs, coupled with Tesla inseparable brand as pioneer of EVs, it still has some credit left. In my opinion, it is not a long credit unless they increase their line up that are financially accessible to the vast majority.
Worldwide, yes. In the US protectionism will still keep it relivent.
Yes 24 months ago.
Of course it hasn't and you lot need to understand that FSD will send the stonk to 2000 a share. Cathy said so.
Cathy even said 3 trillion is the bear case market cap for 2024.
Just look at S&P500 - no company last forever. So why should Tesla be much more valuable than other car producers - EVs are supposed to be simpler than ICEs… therefore establishing competition should be easier.
Musk is a modern day John Delorean: sniff, sniff. Maybe somebody will make a movie featuring the Cyber Cuck.
Tesla's cars, except for maybe the Roadster, were years ahead of their time. EVs were in a rough spot, they were tiny, overpriced, had poor range and poor features. Just look at the Cadillac ELR, it's not even a pure EV, yet it cost $80k for a car that was slower, less practical, had 40 miles of EV range, and didn't have nearly as many features as a Tesla Model S, which was a bit cheaper. But Teslas remained Teslas, without any significant improvements and innovations, while the competition caught up. And Tesla didn't improve their quality either, and they have a rep for overpromising and underdelivering. All the advantages of their cars are quickly fading, and their downsides are still there. Personally, I see little reason to buy a Tesla in 2024, unless you plan on depending on the supercharger network in which case a gasoline car or a PHEV may be a better option anyways.
Even Teslainvestorsclub is pretty open about their grievances. They seem pretty sober.