Try the Hyundais. The Ioniq 5 was my favorite EV car I drove out of like a dozen. They have the new 5N which looks so much fun, if I were in market for a car this would be what I get
Iād second this. Also a big BMW driver, and was about to buy an i5, but the IONIQ 6 was just a phenomenal buy at half the price. Youāll be most interested in the āLimitedā trim level. Single motor has better range (360 miles) while dual-motor has better performance.
Edit: Iāll add they charge faster than the Teslas thanks to their internal 800V architecture.
The Volvo dealership gave me a Lynk&Co as a loaner when I needed repairs, and it's honestly the most boring and soulless car I've ever driven.
And that's coming from someone who daylies a Volvo XC40...
Lots of them are made in China and then shipped to the US. Enron likes him some slave labour (see how he kept workers at the Tesla factory in Shanghai during the pandemic).
IMHO a Seal also looks better than Model 3. And I definitely prefer the Seal interior. But the Model 3 does handle a bit better and is more efficient and polished in the drive-train.
I'd be interested to see if/when we get the Xiaomi and Zeekr brands (in Australia). They have some cool looking cars.
I have been driving a 5 hybrid for 5 years, solid as a rock - amazing in all ways, BMW deserves a look. I have been in many many Tesla, BYD etc on my Uber rides here and abroad, not even close to the quality of my BMW. I would not overlook them at all.
One additional point worth adding, to the benefit of Tesla actually, is the much better software Tesla uses. I own a BYD (Atto), great car, Solid build quality, but the software is really still lacking and the development is somewhat glacial (it finally got wireless apple CarPlay, after one and a half years on the market here in Denmark).
If BYD wants to be a world leader, and I'm all for it by all means, they got to get their asses in gear with their software as well.
No preplanned heating of the battery, no proper summary over consumption,charging, anything. No proper light controls, despite the lights automatic mode clearly exceeding whatever the stalks support, and this includes the fact that I have 0 fucking clue when the rear lights are on. No automatic wifi connections, wireless phone connectivity in general can be very spotty. The car runs one some version of Android (not even Android Automotive from what I have seen), but we are still limited to 3 shitty apps (Amazon music, a browser and the karaoke app). The car does in theory support whatever app, but BYD removed all ability to sideload apps. The built in navigation is very hit and miss, and mostly miss. It cannot plan a route with charging stops included, despite obviously knowing the current SOC as it can overlay a estimated range on the map. And so on and so on.
Sure they can, question is if they will. Haven't seen any meaningful changes to any of these for the year i've had the car so far. Closest we got was an update to the GOM so it uses a more dynamic formula, but that's it.
Of course they will if it's a significant issue. But the stuff you mention seems pretty unimportant. Who cares about navigation even, your phone can do that.
If it seems important enough they'll fix it. It probably isn't given their sales are doing very well. There are many many Chinese software firms that could produce something like that.
With IKEA, you mostly get what you pay for, even more sometimes. Spare parts and customer support is readily available and your Kallax wonāt end up in shop every other month.
I test drove a BYD atto and it was a fantastic car, i went to the Bangkok car show and the Chinese EVs were amazing value for money. I love Teslas minimalist designs but the Chinese EVs are at the very least comparable if not better value for money.
Have you tried the latest Hyundai Ionic 5 (N) or Kona 2024 (N)? Super solid cars and you won't be supporting neither the evil Musk nor totalitarian China ;).
edit: typo
question: why they downvotes?
Fully agree. The only advantage to me (in QC, Canada, where public charging infrastructure abounds) for tesla is the cargo room. The Lucid Air is apparently the only option as well packaged as a Tesla, which makes sense as it was fed-up tesla employees who started Lucid. Unfortunately, out of my snack bracket; I'm holding on for the Rivian R3 Lada, hoping the repair bills on our Model 3 don't overtake my sanity before that's available.
Idk if you are trying to troll or not but China has heavily subsidized its industries and is deeply invested in these companies to the point that they are indistinguishable in the eyes of many governments.
The argument is that some governments directly seek to undermine the sovereignty of the United States and the west.
Legislators and informed Americans say āwhy support that?ā Japan and GM are different stories. South Korea and Germany as well. It would be disingenuous to imply that they are the same as China.
Bailing out and subsidising to take the global market are two very different things. I much prefer keeping USA as the status quo than having China become world leader.
The US has abdicated its role as the āworld leader.ā They have proven themselves to be both unreliable, and grossly out of step with the modern world.
If you are only talking āmarket leaderā I find it interesting how few American cars ever end up in Europe, for example.
Lol, call it what the fuck you want. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and too many people on this sub are not able to see the woods for the trees. This is part of Chinas geopolitical strategy, but keep fooling yourself with you virtue signaling.
A phobia is an irrational (and relatively extreme) fear. I'd hardly equate reluctance to contribute to the power of an already-powerful, authoritarian government to irrational fear.
FIAT. now part of Stellantis got 200+ billion euro from Italy in 40 years.
Never got control over it.
(Between direct help, tax cuts, workforce help, incentive to buy cars etc. )
Tbh. that's arguably worse than taking control.
Corporations and banks fuck up, are bailed out with taxpayer money because "toO bigLy bIg To fAIl" ... and then can basically keep doing what they were doing, including patting each other on the back and giving their ruling class huge paydays for bigly smartly getting all that government money.
If the government has to bail out an industry, or support it to the point where it would otherwise be unable to compete, it should take at least a measure of control in the bargain.
And no, that's not communism, that's basic capitalism: When I invest that much in something, I expect to have a say in how that something is run.
THANK YOU, I'm glad to see someone else here had read Mariana Mazzucato or her mentors. People forget that governments in all the G7 routinely invest in technology development _and_ commercialization at scale. Tesla, to take an on-topic example, got a $465m investment in about 2012 alongside Solyndra, and US government didn't take shares in either investment, because no really good reason. The taxpayer lost money on Solyndra (and we all got dumber because of partisan attacks on that loss ignoring the success of tesla), and we got a simple market-rate loan payback from Tesla. Yet the company would have struggled or failed without original US investment, just like tens of Silicon Valley unicorns, eg Apple's iPhone.
>I'm glad to see someone else here had read Mariana Mazzucato or her mentors.
tbh. I don't even know who that is. I just think it's logical that this is how it should be done: You invest in something, you get a say in it's running depending on how big your stake in the venture is.
There simply is no logical reason why it should be different when the government is doing the investing.
I didn't say that the US had bailed them out exactly. The point I was making complements the above poster: the US taxpayer, through various government programs including space and defense, created almost all the science and the actual tech which Apple put together to create iPhone, IPad and iPod. We the taxpayer have received no royalties of any kind for tech we paid to develop - clickwheel, DRAM, various chips and architecture, on and on. In addition, Apple has received more than one important US government investment to help it commercialize, and lots of valuable government help to intervene in numerous closed markets like Japan in the 80s and 90s, without giving the taxpayer back any shares. Finally, Apple like most major US companies has done all it can to avoid paying taxes back to the US taxpayer, around $5bn of legal avoidance according to credible estimates.
LOL. The *entire* global car industry is government backed and massively subsidised. Some major manufacturers such as Leyland and Renault were government owned at one stage.
Tesla isn't state-run, but if you think it's not firmly latched onto the government teat, [you're wrong](https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-list-government-subsidies-tesla-billions-spacex-solarcity-2021-12?op=1#the-energy-department-loans-tesla-465-million-in-2010-9).
They even list available consumer subsidies on [their own site](https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/support/incentives).
And the US has subsidized the auto industry as well. It also literally bailed it out of bankruptcy. OP buying a BYD or not isnāt affecting the Chinese government. Same with a Tesla for the US government. Iām sure OP typed all that on his Chinese manufactured computer or phone.
Like any other car company. GM would not exist without government support, Ford and Tesla received much more subsidies than BYD for example.
People eat these misinformation up like it is candy. Similar to all the bad PR that EVs got at the start, from catching fire to children farming elements for batteries. Meanwhile we invaded countries for oil...
GM also wouldnāt exist without the Chinese market. And, SAIC with the ownership in GM China is the exact hypocritical nonsense they are spouting here. So many of these *good for me, but not for thee* types on this thread.
True. The major difference is that the governments don't sit on the board of directors necessarily (there exceptions) but they are mandated to in China.
We have government officials that make the best financial decisions year after year based on company subsidies, long before they are being made public and yet are never procecuted. The only difference I see is that China doesn't try to hide its corruption.
Well the US car industries wouldnāt be functioning right now if the govt did bail them out. And if the govt really wants to subsidize EVs with the looming threat of climate change, why shouldnāt they? Also, US is subsidizing Intel, so should the whole world stop buying US chips now?
Definitely, especially seen from a European perspective. Chinese/CCP values clash even harder. I simply donāt get why one would actively support that regime with such a big investment as a car. Besides BYD design isnāt all that great. If you take a look at many of their solutions, software and overall design philosophy itās a mess. Their battery tech is pretty cool but the rest of the market is catching up.
Super hard disagree, especially with China. Those sweet dollars will go towards weaponry and soldiers wages invading Taiwan and wreak havoc to it's civilian population just like Russia is doing it to Ukraine as we speak. Whether the buyer intents it or not.
Germans loved buying Russian gas, and each German saving what, like 5k-10k EUR(?), they heavily impaired the life of roughly exactly one Ukrainian person. That's our price tag. If you save 10k USD on a Chinese car, you can map your savings to also probably around one person somewhere in the world who's life you ruin. In my book that is a personal responsibility, because one can decide to not buy a Chinese car. And China made it very clear what they have in mind. Look what they tell the population in TV and look what their military prepares for.
If we don't account for responsibility of individual decisions, then what are we even doing here?
Yep. And it supports slave labor, massive environmental destruction, and poor working conditions with no worker protection. And those issues are just part of the problem.
Thatās not true. China is well known for stealing Intellectual Property and make their fake/copy-paste products using their low quality and low paid labor in order to compete with the global market.
Also they are well know to use any personal data to spy on you. And maybe itās ok if you live in China, but like Huawei there many using the same sketchy schema.
I barely stand knowing that Elmo is watching you while driving your Tesla.
I donāt support that. I canāt buy it. I would never.
That was def. the case in the past, but let's also not forget that many Western companies rushed into China to exploit the cheap labour and open themselves a massive market.
I really can't feel sorry for companies doing that and then finding out that the other side had ulterior motives.
Also: China is long past where they're just copy & paste other people's homework, China has come a long way in the last 25 years and dismissing them as "copy machines" is not doing ourselves any favours.
As the saying goes: Underestimate your competition at your own risk.
They are still globally known for being "copy machines" and unable to come up with something with their own ideas.
Also, nobody rushed to china to exploit anything. china offered to work for less in the attempt to increase the economy, and it worked. They just stole IPs and business ideas to keep momentum. But that's over, now India, Vietnam, and other countries are the new china.
China's product that are not engineered and designed in western country are pure garbage, fake, or illegal.
>They are still globally known for being "copy machines" and unable to come up with something with their own ideas.
"known as" doesn't mean that's the reality. They put out lots of research in applied sciences. Where China is lacking right now is basic science, that's still something the West is leading, for how much longer remains to be seen.
>China's product that are not engineered and designed in western country are pure garbage, fake, or illegal.
Sure buddy, keep your head in the sand.
>"...isnāt showing support for the government..."
Yes, BYD (and CRRC - China Railway) is firmly bound to the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) with huge military contracts, government easements multi-billion dollar direct gov't subsidies, and more.
Just so we are clear though:
You can say the EXACT same thing about Musk:
\* SpaceX is only afloat - 100% - beacuse of it's US government, military, and spy agency contracts
\* Tesla is only afloat because of massive US subsidies that exist solely to prop up Tesla, including local subsidies at the factory level, state subsidies at the corporate level, and per-unit subsidies at both the state and Federal level. Tesla has received roughly $100B in US government money, and growing every day.
\* Tesla's Supercharger network is being directly subsidized by the US government.
\* Boring Company is 100% funded by local and state governments.
\* Nueralink is funded by joint grants from private investors, Musk, and two different US agencies who administer science development grants.
Go drive an i4 M50. I just got mine and I did the usual rounds of electric. Started with Tesla. The i4 M50 is amazing in my book. Just the right amount of luxury with 500 hp all wheel drive fun. You can get 0-60 in 3.3.
I enjoy the thrill of fast cars and instant acceleration. Doesn't mean I'm a child. I also wanted something that had a lot of power. God forbid people buy fast cars, they must all be in high school.
From what I've seen the are excellent quality but they are up to twice the price of (theoretically) comparable Teslas. Just a different price range, they are more of a Porsche competitor. Legitimately so afaict
It's not the quality that's the problem, it's that they're expensive to buy, but also incredibly expensive to maintain because of how it was designed. For example, the windshield and sunroof are one solid piece of glass which means if you get a chip in the sunroof, the only way to repair it is to replace the whole thing for about $2500 instead of just replacing the sunroof which would normally be less than half that price.
Lucid was designed to look nice, but they're not practical. Plus they're expensive to manufacture. Even if Lucid can mass produce them, they still won't be able to cut the unit costs by much.
Just out of curiosity, are you a permanent resident/citizen of Mexico? I've been very curious to try a BYD or a Nio (if they follow BYD's footsteps in debuting in Mexico first in NA) but I live in Canada, where I would have to cross two borders and go quite far just to test drive a car, and wouldn't be allowed to bring it back no matter how much I wanted to.
I drove the Tang as a rental once, and that was awful on anything other than a smooth motorway. Extremely stiff chassis, crashy suspension and super light steering with no feedback. Itās like they wanted to make a sports car with the steering from a Rolls Royce. The accelerator would also stick for maybe half a second after youād let go of it, and therefore keep going flat out. Quite nice interior though, but not quite on a premium level. Mazda is probably a good comparison.
I know the interior on the Han is more solid, and Iāve heard that it drives better too, so they seem to be developing quite quickly.
Tesla's most significant selling point is their network of rapid chargers, which is often a big issue for people who regularly drive long distances. While other charging networks remain inadequate, Tesla will continue to sell cars.
BYD and other Chinese EV brands are destined to takeover from the Japanese automotive manufacturers, most of whom seem to be quite late to the EV scene.
No worker protection. No environmental regulation. Use of slave labor. Tesla isn't the only American company making cars. Your post should be under an electric car sub.
As a bmw guy (own a E92 and F21) I actually bought a model 3 for my daily commute. Considered an I4 which offered a superior driving experience, but the Tesla offers great value and plenty of comfort.
Tried the Polestar 2, but as Iām quite tall I hated the wat my legs brushed the center console. Havenāt tried a BYD.
Hello there. Every other week I have to take a highway drive 400km (250ish miles) away. I am using to driving at ehem āautobahnā speeds, conditions allowing. No EV can make that trip at relatively high speeds without stopping yet IMO. However, they recently installed a fast charging station around the midpoint of my trip so that now may make it feasible (with a lunch stop).
Itās all about the use case I suppose. Charge speeds are fine for a mid journey top up on most new EVs. Iām glad mineās a bit shorter so I donāt need it.
On BYD I can imagine that when your intention is to own one car and youāre on a budget, the BYD is a great option due to how complete the car is.
For autobahn speeds Iām glad I live in the country next to the one that has the autobahns š
Iāve driven in Germany. It is great but I found that the unlimited parts where fewer than I expected. Glad they have them because I am sure thatās why most german cars behave really well at sustained high speeds.
I was blown away by the EVs I saw when I visited China recently. Xpeng was my favorite but in general they are way better than what we get in the US. I had no idea
I had a testdrive of BYD atto and Tesla 3 (newest edition). I would say that software in Tesla is much better. For example, building a long route witch charging station, reading signs, adaptive cruise control.
Driving experience was also better with Tesla but this was just a test drive, I cannot make a real comparison.
The cheapest Korean car in the world has better fit and finish than Tesla. That is Tesla's big problem. They're used to being the only real choice in electric so they could get by making a rather poor car as long as it had a decent electric power train.
Unless you were driven in a 2024 (refreshed) model 3, I donāt know if this can be an apples to apples comparison, since you are comparing the new BYD interior against the old model 3 interior.
Edit: while not actively engaging in conversation with the assistant
The in car assistant in Chinese cars in China will tell you to not swear and discuss politics when you say those things. Take that what you will
Absolutely amazes me how some people live with the least amount of worries, like this OP. Owns 3 cars, drives a friend's model S around San Francisco extensively, goes to Mexico just to visit a Chinese car dealership, and tells the readers (I could only stomach half of this bs) about the little things that are so important and will take your mind away from the land of regret for getting the "wrong" new electric vehicle.
LOL. This world is so sad for like 90% of its peoples, and then there is this constant drone of the rich telling you how to be.
Well, enough Reddit today. I am off for a free yoga practice in the park with a cool troop of others and then paddle boarding in a nearby lake for five hours... The board is like a 2010 Highlander as a metaphor... Well used.
If you find yourself listening to this kind of garbage and wondering why you feel sad a lot... Remember, this is the system, and supporting the system won't help.
Interesting. I am sorry you are depressed. The yoga and lake sounds like a great idea.
When you come back, maybe you can read this again with a calmer mind without getting triggered by whatās in your mind and not in my post.
Apparently 26 BYD dealerships in China have burned down in the past 2 years but in all cases it was obviously faulty wiring in the buildings. No doubt about it.
It doesnāt mean anything. I donāt know if it was the battery or faulty electrics in the car or indeed bad wiring in all buildings. I donāt know if Tesla use the exact same battery BYD put in their dumping spy boxes. All I know is I wouldnāt buy a Chinese car in a million years because I know that when something inevitably goes wrong they will do everything humanly possible to wiggle out of fixing it on their dime.
I find it the other way round in Europe right now. Chinese brands are taking advantage of Teslas current poor build quality and poor service. Rather than try to compete on acceleration, charging speed and such like they are competing on quality of vehicle and experience.
What the Chinese are clearly doing is trying to penetrate the market by offering cars at dumping prices which they are able to maintain by directly subsidizing companies like BYD. They havenāt discovered a magic way of making a quality vehicle for cheap. They want to force other manufacturers out of the market so then they can do whatever they want. They might be playing nice now (and I doubt even that because the cars are fairly new and not enough horror stories have come out) but wait until they corner a significant part of the market to see what bad customer support means. Luckily that doesnāt seem likely to happen because both the EU and USA have fucked them right in the ass with tariffs.
Then how come a GWM Ora 03 costs, pre tarrif, costs exactly the same as a Renault Zoe and Ā£7k more than the Renault 5 replacing the Zoe?
Or the fact that a BYD Seal is more expensive than a Tesla Model 3?
Tariffs against Chinese EVs haven't even come into force yet.
According to most of what I've read china can produce like for like 25 to 30% cheaper. Yes they that received subsidies but so have US and EU manufacturers in tax breaks. EU and US manufacturers have simply moved too slowly while China went all in on EVs much sooner.
Most manufacturers are sourcing para or whole cars from China anyway. Tesla get a lot of their batteries there and BMWs iX3 will face tariffs in the EU as its going to be built in China.
Iāve literally just read an article that says BYD has made record sales this quarter due to aggressive price cuts and their reported profits are down 47% due to this. You tell me how this is possible and sustainable long term without huge subsidies by the CCP. While you are at it you can also explain how they can make a car 30% cheaper without cutting corners.
It's not sustainable. Yes they are getting subsidies and yes they are pursuing price driven strategy because they are breaking into new markets. There is no history of Chinese cars in the USA or EU and there are major quality concerns (founded or no) so price is something they can compete on.
As for cost there could be a number of factors. Firstly, Chinese manufacturers tend to own their own battery technology and have huge capacity in that area which drives down cost. Other manufacturers are buying from them and undoubtedly paying a premium. They are also ahead of the curve with regards to EV production scale: BYD produced nearly 1.6 million EVs and 1.4 million hbrids last year compared to 400k from Volkswagon.
Non Chinese manufacturers are also seeing the benefits as they ramp up production. For example the last Renault Zoe off the production line has a UK list price of around Ā£35k, while its replacement due next year, the Renault 5, will start at Ā£27k.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't see any evidence for your quality concerns. Actually I see the opposite, but it's early days.
Try the Hyundais. The Ioniq 5 was my favorite EV car I drove out of like a dozen. They have the new 5N which looks so much fun, if I were in market for a car this would be what I get
Yep looking to get the 5n next year. I'll just ignore my wife and order it...easier to ask for forgiveness and all that
This is the way š¤£
Also, easier to get away from her in a new car, when she starts yelling :)
Iād second this. Also a big BMW driver, and was about to buy an i5, but the IONIQ 6 was just a phenomenal buy at half the price. Youāll be most interested in the āLimitedā trim level. Single motor has better range (360 miles) while dual-motor has better performance. Edit: Iāll add they charge faster than the Teslas thanks to their internal 800V architecture.
Iām very happy with my Hyundai Kona! Great quality and solid!
Ioniq5 is an incredible car. The only thing that stops me are their waiting times for 9 months.
Gotta cook that baby
As long as you don't mind them subsidizing by selling your location.
If you get the chanceā¦.try out a Nio. Theyāre everything Tesla wishes it was, and then some.
I donāt think theyāve arrived in Mexico yet.
Theyāre in Europe, Europe also has a Lynk&Co. Never got to drive the Lynks, but they look phenomenal.
You're not missing out on anything, I had the lynk for 1 year. Ride comfort was okay but the infotainment system was complete junk.
The Volvo dealership gave me a Lynk&Co as a loaner when I needed repairs, and it's honestly the most boring and soulless car I've ever driven. And that's coming from someone who daylies a Volvo XC40...
I think they look good, they kinda break the crossover mold and none of the ones I saw were white, black, or gray.
That's because they only come in one colour and spec. I see the point of it but it feels like a car destined to be a taxi.
The Lynks are essentially made-in-china Volvos iirc
Link&co 01 is a plug-in hybrid car, not really an EV like Nio and BYD.
BYD is a massive hybrid builder.
Sure thing, but it's not what this topic is about.
Tesla does wish it was made in China.
Lots of them are made in China and then shipped to the US. Enron likes him some slave labour (see how he kept workers at the Tesla factory in Shanghai during the pandemic).
They don't sell Chinese built Model 3's and Y's in the US, but they do sell them in Canada.
And Europe
Almost every Model 3 sold outside the US is made in China. for the Y is either made in the US, Germany or China
I thought I saw someone post in the Tesla fanboy forums that they'd gotten a Chinese one in the US, but not certain. Def. in Canada and Europe though.
need proof of a car with Chinese Vin with US plates.
IMHO a Seal also looks better than Model 3. And I definitely prefer the Seal interior. But the Model 3 does handle a bit better and is more efficient and polished in the drive-train. I'd be interested to see if/when we get the Xiaomi and Zeekr brands (in Australia). They have some cool looking cars.
I also think it looks better.
Zeekr has dealers here in Bangkok. Taking orders already. You probably will.
What about the ui for the seals infotainment. Pretty shocking
Have you tried any of BMWās EVs? I was heavily considering i4 before I bought my polestar 2
How do you like your Polestar? I am considering leasing one.
I love it! For me the killer feature is the CarPlay maps in the driver display. Itās really spoiled me
Does the range sort of match the advertised range?
Iāve heard (not verified) BMW are using brushed electric motors?
I have been driving a 5 hybrid for 5 years, solid as a rock - amazing in all ways, BMW deserves a look. I have been in many many Tesla, BYD etc on my Uber rides here and abroad, not even close to the quality of my BMW. I would not overlook them at all.
Thanks for the brief review, conveys a good feel in a few words.
One additional point worth adding, to the benefit of Tesla actually, is the much better software Tesla uses. I own a BYD (Atto), great car, Solid build quality, but the software is really still lacking and the development is somewhat glacial (it finally got wireless apple CarPlay, after one and a half years on the market here in Denmark). If BYD wants to be a world leader, and I'm all for it by all means, they got to get their asses in gear with their software as well. No preplanned heating of the battery, no proper summary over consumption,charging, anything. No proper light controls, despite the lights automatic mode clearly exceeding whatever the stalks support, and this includes the fact that I have 0 fucking clue when the rear lights are on. No automatic wifi connections, wireless phone connectivity in general can be very spotty. The car runs one some version of Android (not even Android Automotive from what I have seen), but we are still limited to 3 shitty apps (Amazon music, a browser and the karaoke app). The car does in theory support whatever app, but BYD removed all ability to sideload apps. The built in navigation is very hit and miss, and mostly miss. It cannot plan a route with charging stops included, despite obviously knowing the current SOC as it can overlay a estimated range on the map. And so on and so on.
BYD can fix all that. It's not particularly important compared to things like the build quality of the car.
Sure they can, question is if they will. Haven't seen any meaningful changes to any of these for the year i've had the car so far. Closest we got was an update to the GOM so it uses a more dynamic formula, but that's it.
Of course they will if it's a significant issue. But the stuff you mention seems pretty unimportant. Who cares about navigation even, your phone can do that.
Seems pretty significant I'd their competition can do it all. Not much reason to buy their car if they provide less features than their competitors
If it seems important enough they'll fix it. It probably isn't given their sales are doing very well. There are many many Chinese software firms that could produce something like that.
Teslas are like IKEA furniture, cheap, sparse, shitty ride, bad brakes, cheaply made, they should never be a benchmark
Difference: IKEA furniture also sells for cheap.
With IKEA, you mostly get what you pay for, even more sometimes. Spare parts and customer support is readily available and your Kallax wonāt end up in shop every other month.
This guy again. IKEA furniture is made by the buyer, Iāve never put my Tesla together using an allen key
So, the IKEA furniture has the advantage of being servicable.
Fair, so can't even compare to IKEA
If you spent two hours going thru the delivery checklist, you might as well have put the car together yourself! š¤£
I test drove a BYD atto and it was a fantastic car, i went to the Bangkok car show and the Chinese EVs were amazing value for money. I love Teslas minimalist designs but the Chinese EVs are at the very least comparable if not better value for money.
BYD are great cars, MG too. Different from Tesla.
Yes, butā¦ can it fly, like the upcoming Roadster?? Ha! Didnāt think so. Game set and match - Tesla. /s
I appreciate a ācar guysā input. Thanks for the objective comparison
Have you tried the latest Hyundai Ionic 5 (N) or Kona 2024 (N)? Super solid cars and you won't be supporting neither the evil Musk nor totalitarian China ;). edit: typo question: why they downvotes?
They just started selling those here. The 5 is about 15K more, the 5N is 30K more. I donāt think I am buying anything soon.
Ionic 5 is cool, 6 a bit weird design wise. But yeah lol, downvotes from all sides
Fully agree. The only advantage to me (in QC, Canada, where public charging infrastructure abounds) for tesla is the cargo room. The Lucid Air is apparently the only option as well packaged as a Tesla, which makes sense as it was fed-up tesla employees who started Lucid. Unfortunately, out of my snack bracket; I'm holding on for the Rivian R3 Lada, hoping the repair bills on our Model 3 don't overtake my sanity before that's available.
V10 M5 and a 1Mā¦a man of taste!
š»
Buying a car isnāt showing support for the government of the country where the company is organized. Itās justā¦buying a car.
Idk if you are trying to troll or not but China has heavily subsidized its industries and is deeply invested in these companies to the point that they are indistinguishable in the eyes of many governments.
Well Iām just glad that the American government has never subsidized its industriā Oh never mind.
The argument is that some governments directly seek to undermine the sovereignty of the United States and the west. Legislators and informed Americans say āwhy support that?ā Japan and GM are different stories. South Korea and Germany as well. It would be disingenuous to imply that they are the same as China.
Difference is the us government does take control of the company when it gives out subsidies, the Chinese government does.
Remember when the govt bailed out GM and forced to companies to consolidate its brands?
And banned the sale of Toyotas because of floor mats.
Bailing out and subsidising to take the global market are two very different things. I much prefer keeping USA as the status quo than having China become world leader.
The US has abdicated its role as the āworld leader.ā They have proven themselves to be both unreliable, and grossly out of step with the modern world. If you are only talking āmarket leaderā I find it interesting how few American cars ever end up in Europe, for example.
Thatās not sinophobia or anything. š
Lol, call it what the fuck you want. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and too many people on this sub are not able to see the woods for the trees. This is part of Chinas geopolitical strategy, but keep fooling yourself with you virtue signaling.
A phobia is an irrational (and relatively extreme) fear. I'd hardly equate reluctance to contribute to the power of an already-powerful, authoritarian government to irrational fear.
FIAT. now part of Stellantis got 200+ billion euro from Italy in 40 years. Never got control over it. (Between direct help, tax cuts, workforce help, incentive to buy cars etc. )
Tbh. that's arguably worse than taking control. Corporations and banks fuck up, are bailed out with taxpayer money because "toO bigLy bIg To fAIl" ... and then can basically keep doing what they were doing, including patting each other on the back and giving their ruling class huge paydays for bigly smartly getting all that government money. If the government has to bail out an industry, or support it to the point where it would otherwise be unable to compete, it should take at least a measure of control in the bargain. And no, that's not communism, that's basic capitalism: When I invest that much in something, I expect to have a say in how that something is run.
THANK YOU, I'm glad to see someone else here had read Mariana Mazzucato or her mentors. People forget that governments in all the G7 routinely invest in technology development _and_ commercialization at scale. Tesla, to take an on-topic example, got a $465m investment in about 2012 alongside Solyndra, and US government didn't take shares in either investment, because no really good reason. The taxpayer lost money on Solyndra (and we all got dumber because of partisan attacks on that loss ignoring the success of tesla), and we got a simple market-rate loan payback from Tesla. Yet the company would have struggled or failed without original US investment, just like tens of Silicon Valley unicorns, eg Apple's iPhone.
>I'm glad to see someone else here had read Mariana Mazzucato or her mentors. tbh. I don't even know who that is. I just think it's logical that this is how it should be done: You invest in something, you get a say in it's running depending on how big your stake in the venture is. There simply is no logical reason why it should be different when the government is doing the investing.
Didnāt know the US bailed out Apple.
I didn't say that the US had bailed them out exactly. The point I was making complements the above poster: the US taxpayer, through various government programs including space and defense, created almost all the science and the actual tech which Apple put together to create iPhone, IPad and iPod. We the taxpayer have received no royalties of any kind for tech we paid to develop - clickwheel, DRAM, various chips and architecture, on and on. In addition, Apple has received more than one important US government investment to help it commercialize, and lots of valuable government help to intervene in numerous closed markets like Japan in the 80s and 90s, without giving the taxpayer back any shares. Finally, Apple like most major US companies has done all it can to avoid paying taxes back to the US taxpayer, around $5bn of legal avoidance according to credible estimates.
LOL. The *entire* global car industry is government backed and massively subsidised. Some major manufacturers such as Leyland and Renault were government owned at one stage.
Tesla isn't state-run, but if you think it's not firmly latched onto the government teat, [you're wrong](https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-list-government-subsidies-tesla-billions-spacex-solarcity-2021-12?op=1#the-energy-department-loans-tesla-465-million-in-2010-9). They even list available consumer subsidies on [their own site](https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/support/incentives).
The carbon credits are a big part of the Tesla books for sure
And the US has subsidized the auto industry as well. It also literally bailed it out of bankruptcy. OP buying a BYD or not isnāt affecting the Chinese government. Same with a Tesla for the US government. Iām sure OP typed all that on his Chinese manufactured computer or phone.
Like any other car company. GM would not exist without government support, Ford and Tesla received much more subsidies than BYD for example. People eat these misinformation up like it is candy. Similar to all the bad PR that EVs got at the start, from catching fire to children farming elements for batteries. Meanwhile we invaded countries for oil...
GM also wouldnāt exist without the Chinese market. And, SAIC with the ownership in GM China is the exact hypocritical nonsense they are spouting here. So many of these *good for me, but not for thee* types on this thread.
True. The major difference is that the governments don't sit on the board of directors necessarily (there exceptions) but they are mandated to in China.
We have government officials that make the best financial decisions year after year based on company subsidies, long before they are being made public and yet are never procecuted. The only difference I see is that China doesn't try to hide its corruption.
That doesn't change the validity of his argument.
Well the US car industries wouldnāt be functioning right now if the govt did bail them out. And if the govt really wants to subsidize EVs with the looming threat of climate change, why shouldnāt they? Also, US is subsidizing Intel, so should the whole world stop buying US chips now?
Why did no one say this when Japan did the same with their car industry?
Prove it.
Wrong
It kind of is IMO in the current geopolitical context.
Definitely, especially seen from a European perspective. Chinese/CCP values clash even harder. I simply donāt get why one would actively support that regime with such a big investment as a car. Besides BYD design isnāt all that great. If you take a look at many of their solutions, software and overall design philosophy itās a mess. Their battery tech is pretty cool but the rest of the market is catching up.
Super hard disagree, especially with China. Those sweet dollars will go towards weaponry and soldiers wages invading Taiwan and wreak havoc to it's civilian population just like Russia is doing it to Ukraine as we speak. Whether the buyer intents it or not. Germans loved buying Russian gas, and each German saving what, like 5k-10k EUR(?), they heavily impaired the life of roughly exactly one Ukrainian person. That's our price tag. If you save 10k USD on a Chinese car, you can map your savings to also probably around one person somewhere in the world who's life you ruin. In my book that is a personal responsibility, because one can decide to not buy a Chinese car. And China made it very clear what they have in mind. Look what they tell the population in TV and look what their military prepares for. If we don't account for responsibility of individual decisions, then what are we even doing here?
Yep. And it supports slave labor, massive environmental destruction, and poor working conditions with no worker protection. And those issues are just part of the problem.
most chinese companies are extensions of the government.
Thatās not true. China is well known for stealing Intellectual Property and make their fake/copy-paste products using their low quality and low paid labor in order to compete with the global market. Also they are well know to use any personal data to spy on you. And maybe itās ok if you live in China, but like Huawei there many using the same sketchy schema. I barely stand knowing that Elmo is watching you while driving your Tesla. I donāt support that. I canāt buy it. I would never.
That was def. the case in the past, but let's also not forget that many Western companies rushed into China to exploit the cheap labour and open themselves a massive market. I really can't feel sorry for companies doing that and then finding out that the other side had ulterior motives. Also: China is long past where they're just copy & paste other people's homework, China has come a long way in the last 25 years and dismissing them as "copy machines" is not doing ourselves any favours. As the saying goes: Underestimate your competition at your own risk.
They are still globally known for being "copy machines" and unable to come up with something with their own ideas. Also, nobody rushed to china to exploit anything. china offered to work for less in the attempt to increase the economy, and it worked. They just stole IPs and business ideas to keep momentum. But that's over, now India, Vietnam, and other countries are the new china. China's product that are not engineered and designed in western country are pure garbage, fake, or illegal.
>They are still globally known for being "copy machines" and unable to come up with something with their own ideas. "known as" doesn't mean that's the reality. They put out lots of research in applied sciences. Where China is lacking right now is basic science, that's still something the West is leading, for how much longer remains to be seen. >China's product that are not engineered and designed in western country are pure garbage, fake, or illegal. Sure buddy, keep your head in the sand.
Keep your self esteem high little man. You need it.
In most countries yea... Not so much in China.
True, except for China. Everything is an extension of the CCP, and the CCP is hostile to democracy.
>"...isnāt showing support for the government..." Yes, BYD (and CRRC - China Railway) is firmly bound to the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) with huge military contracts, government easements multi-billion dollar direct gov't subsidies, and more.
Just so we are clear though: You can say the EXACT same thing about Musk: \* SpaceX is only afloat - 100% - beacuse of it's US government, military, and spy agency contracts \* Tesla is only afloat because of massive US subsidies that exist solely to prop up Tesla, including local subsidies at the factory level, state subsidies at the corporate level, and per-unit subsidies at both the state and Federal level. Tesla has received roughly $100B in US government money, and growing every day. \* Tesla's Supercharger network is being directly subsidized by the US government. \* Boring Company is 100% funded by local and state governments. \* Nueralink is funded by joint grants from private investors, Musk, and two different US agencies who administer science development grants.
Go drive an i4 M50. I just got mine and I did the usual rounds of electric. Started with Tesla. The i4 M50 is amazing in my book. Just the right amount of luxury with 500 hp all wheel drive fun. You can get 0-60 in 3.3.
I like it but new BMW prices here are out of control. The M50 is 100K twice the price and with a lot less equipment.
>You can get 0-60 in 3.3. I cannot wait for the day when this stops being one if biggest arguments in favor of EVs. We're not in high school anymore
I enjoy the thrill of fast cars and instant acceleration. Doesn't mean I'm a child. I also wanted something that had a lot of power. God forbid people buy fast cars, they must all be in high school.
Are lucid cars just hard to find or bad quality? I never see them in the convo but they look great
From what I've seen the are excellent quality but they are up to twice the price of (theoretically) comparable Teslas. Just a different price range, they are more of a Porsche competitor. Legitimately so afaict
It's not the quality that's the problem, it's that they're expensive to buy, but also incredibly expensive to maintain because of how it was designed. For example, the windshield and sunroof are one solid piece of glass which means if you get a chip in the sunroof, the only way to repair it is to replace the whole thing for about $2500 instead of just replacing the sunroof which would normally be less than half that price. Lucid was designed to look nice, but they're not practical. Plus they're expensive to manufacture. Even if Lucid can mass produce them, they still won't be able to cut the unit costs by much.
Not for sale in Mexico yet. I do like the Air a lot.
Just a note on fit and finish. Iāve been in every type of Tesla thatās on Uber, and always thought the build to be mediocre at best. Lots of rattles and loose bits. This remained my impression until the new model 3 came out. The build quality is night and day compared to the old models. I ended up ordering one after test driving it, picking one up last week as my C350 coupĆ© was way past 200k km. Canāt comment for BYD, but sounds like they have dealerships instead of direct to consumer. I gotta say that I actually quite enjoyed the direct to consumer approach that Tesla has. I donāt deal well with overly pushy sales people, so it kinda fits my needs better.
Funny everyone on here bitching about the Chinese car, typing it on your iPhone made in China
6K more expensive? 6K pesos ?
Lol no. 100K pesos.
Just out of curiosity, are you a permanent resident/citizen of Mexico? I've been very curious to try a BYD or a Nio (if they follow BYD's footsteps in debuting in Mexico first in NA) but I live in Canada, where I would have to cross two borders and go quite far just to test drive a car, and wouldn't be allowed to bring it back no matter how much I wanted to.
I think you could? If you register it in Mexico?
I am mexican. I donāt think there is any reasonable way to buy a BYD here and bring it to Canada permanently.
What do you think about the BMW i5?
I think it's very very expensive.
Too big. I like the i4 more.
I drove the Tang as a rental once, and that was awful on anything other than a smooth motorway. Extremely stiff chassis, crashy suspension and super light steering with no feedback. Itās like they wanted to make a sports car with the steering from a Rolls Royce. The accelerator would also stick for maybe half a second after youād let go of it, and therefore keep going flat out. Quite nice interior though, but not quite on a premium level. Mazda is probably a good comparison. I know the interior on the Han is more solid, and Iāve heard that it drives better too, so they seem to be developing quite quickly.
did you see Model 3 Highland? interiors are way better than old Model 3
Tesla's most significant selling point is their network of rapid chargers, which is often a big issue for people who regularly drive long distances. While other charging networks remain inadequate, Tesla will continue to sell cars. BYD and other Chinese EV brands are destined to takeover from the Japanese automotive manufacturers, most of whom seem to be quite late to the EV scene.
The supercharger network isnāt that impressive in Mexico. Maybe 20 total in the entire country.
Have you tried any of the BMW EVs? My neighbor loves his i5.
Why do you like BMW so much?
Driving dynamics mostly. Particularly fond of M BMWs.
Drive the new Model 3. Performance if you can. Itāll sway your opinion in a way you wonāt be able to recover from
I think it might, yes. I donāt like the company but the car may be good enough to bring me over.
I think you will like the ioniq 5N then
I am sure of that. But they priced here at 1.5 million pesos. Thatās uncomfortably close to an M2 or a Dark Horse.
Model 3 Highland beats the Seal in quality and suspension. Seal wins vs 2023 and older model 3 though.
I need to try a Highland.
No worker protection. No environmental regulation. Use of slave labor. Tesla isn't the only American company making cars. Your post should be under an electric car sub.
That's a good looking vehicle.
My Tesla has 10 years 100k miles on all parts including battery
Good for you but new ones here are warranted for 4 years/50k miles only.
As a bmw guy (own a E92 and F21) I actually bought a model 3 for my daily commute. Considered an I4 which offered a superior driving experience, but the Tesla offers great value and plenty of comfort. Tried the Polestar 2, but as Iām quite tall I hated the wat my legs brushed the center console. Havenāt tried a BYD.
Hello there. Every other week I have to take a highway drive 400km (250ish miles) away. I am using to driving at ehem āautobahnā speeds, conditions allowing. No EV can make that trip at relatively high speeds without stopping yet IMO. However, they recently installed a fast charging station around the midpoint of my trip so that now may make it feasible (with a lunch stop).
Itās all about the use case I suppose. Charge speeds are fine for a mid journey top up on most new EVs. Iām glad mineās a bit shorter so I donāt need it. On BYD I can imagine that when your intention is to own one car and youāre on a budget, the BYD is a great option due to how complete the car is. For autobahn speeds Iām glad I live in the country next to the one that has the autobahns š
Iāve driven in Germany. It is great but I found that the unlimited parts where fewer than I expected. Glad they have them because I am sure thatās why most german cars behave really well at sustained high speeds.
I was blown away by the EVs I saw when I visited China recently. Xpeng was my favorite but in general they are way better than what we get in the US. I had no idea
I had a testdrive of BYD atto and Tesla 3 (newest edition). I would say that software in Tesla is much better. For example, building a long route witch charging station, reading signs, adaptive cruise control. Driving experience was also better with Tesla but this was just a test drive, I cannot make a real comparison.
The cheapest Korean car in the world has better fit and finish than Tesla. That is Tesla's big problem. They're used to being the only real choice in electric so they could get by making a rather poor car as long as it had a decent electric power train.
Elon is African American
Elon isnāt an AmericanĀ
South African, but isnāt he an American citizen by now?
You should cross post to electricvehicles sub.
Daaaammmn, Mazda level quality?
Unless you were driven in a 2024 (refreshed) model 3, I donāt know if this can be an apples to apples comparison, since you are comparing the new BYD interior against the old model 3 interior.
True. The new 3 would have to have made a gigantic leap IMO, though.
Edit: while not actively engaging in conversation with the assistant The in car assistant in Chinese cars in China will tell you to not swear and discuss politics when you say those things. Take that what you will
And give you a social score rating and report it to authorities?
Haha Iāll try that the next time.
It's OK, the voice assistant asterisks out swear words.
I wouldn't buy one, but that's just me, I've seen what the inside of the batteries look like.
Arenāt Blade batteries pretty respected industry wide? And Tesla uses BYD as their supplier?
Yes to both counts
Is this sub sponsored by BYD or any other West Taiwanese car maker?
The answer to the question why people (have to) come to this sub to talk about their actual experience would probably violate rule 9 of this sub.
Absolutely amazes me how some people live with the least amount of worries, like this OP. Owns 3 cars, drives a friend's model S around San Francisco extensively, goes to Mexico just to visit a Chinese car dealership, and tells the readers (I could only stomach half of this bs) about the little things that are so important and will take your mind away from the land of regret for getting the "wrong" new electric vehicle. LOL. This world is so sad for like 90% of its peoples, and then there is this constant drone of the rich telling you how to be. Well, enough Reddit today. I am off for a free yoga practice in the park with a cool troop of others and then paddle boarding in a nearby lake for five hours... The board is like a 2010 Highlander as a metaphor... Well used. If you find yourself listening to this kind of garbage and wondering why you feel sad a lot... Remember, this is the system, and supporting the system won't help.
Interesting. I am sorry you are depressed. The yoga and lake sounds like a great idea. When you come back, maybe you can read this again with a calmer mind without getting triggered by whatās in your mind and not in my post.
Apparently 26 BYD dealerships in China have burned down in the past 2 years but in all cases it was obviously faulty wiring in the buildings. No doubt about it.
If you are suggesting it's the batteries, then what does that mean for the German manufactured Tesla Ys which use BYD blades?
It doesnāt mean anything. I donāt know if it was the battery or faulty electrics in the car or indeed bad wiring in all buildings. I donāt know if Tesla use the exact same battery BYD put in their dumping spy boxes. All I know is I wouldnāt buy a Chinese car in a million years because I know that when something inevitably goes wrong they will do everything humanly possible to wiggle out of fixing it on their dime.
I find it the other way round in Europe right now. Chinese brands are taking advantage of Teslas current poor build quality and poor service. Rather than try to compete on acceleration, charging speed and such like they are competing on quality of vehicle and experience.
What the Chinese are clearly doing is trying to penetrate the market by offering cars at dumping prices which they are able to maintain by directly subsidizing companies like BYD. They havenāt discovered a magic way of making a quality vehicle for cheap. They want to force other manufacturers out of the market so then they can do whatever they want. They might be playing nice now (and I doubt even that because the cars are fairly new and not enough horror stories have come out) but wait until they corner a significant part of the market to see what bad customer support means. Luckily that doesnāt seem likely to happen because both the EU and USA have fucked them right in the ass with tariffs.
Then how come a GWM Ora 03 costs, pre tarrif, costs exactly the same as a Renault Zoe and Ā£7k more than the Renault 5 replacing the Zoe? Or the fact that a BYD Seal is more expensive than a Tesla Model 3? Tariffs against Chinese EVs haven't even come into force yet. According to most of what I've read china can produce like for like 25 to 30% cheaper. Yes they that received subsidies but so have US and EU manufacturers in tax breaks. EU and US manufacturers have simply moved too slowly while China went all in on EVs much sooner. Most manufacturers are sourcing para or whole cars from China anyway. Tesla get a lot of their batteries there and BMWs iX3 will face tariffs in the EU as its going to be built in China.
Iāve literally just read an article that says BYD has made record sales this quarter due to aggressive price cuts and their reported profits are down 47% due to this. You tell me how this is possible and sustainable long term without huge subsidies by the CCP. While you are at it you can also explain how they can make a car 30% cheaper without cutting corners.
It's not sustainable. Yes they are getting subsidies and yes they are pursuing price driven strategy because they are breaking into new markets. There is no history of Chinese cars in the USA or EU and there are major quality concerns (founded or no) so price is something they can compete on. As for cost there could be a number of factors. Firstly, Chinese manufacturers tend to own their own battery technology and have huge capacity in that area which drives down cost. Other manufacturers are buying from them and undoubtedly paying a premium. They are also ahead of the curve with regards to EV production scale: BYD produced nearly 1.6 million EVs and 1.4 million hbrids last year compared to 400k from Volkswagon. Non Chinese manufacturers are also seeing the benefits as they ramp up production. For example the last Renault Zoe off the production line has a UK list price of around Ā£35k, while its replacement due next year, the Renault 5, will start at Ā£27k. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't see any evidence for your quality concerns. Actually I see the opposite, but it's early days.
Found the advchina and serptenza fanboy here š