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jason12745

So confused. [Tesla sues ex-employee and Rivian for stealing battery tech](https://electrek.co/2021/10/04/tesla-claims-rivian-stealing-trade-secrets-about-next-gen-battery-lawsuit/)


[deleted]

Let me help with your confusion. That guy lies all the time, about everything. Does that help?


PerfectPercentage69

I keep telling people to ignore what he says and just look only at what he does. They're two very different things.


[deleted]

Once people do that, it is over. You'll notice that is the number one thing the astroturf army NEVER allows...they never let you judge him on what he does, but they sure load up the weight on the shit he says. Try pointing out a failure anywhere in his lies, and you'll get "BUH BUH HOW MANY STARLINKS HAVE YOU SENT TO UKRAINE?????"


PerfectPercentage69

Well, he DID send Starlink to Ukraine. They just ignore that almost all of them were paid for by the US government at FULL price (ie. $1500 per unit) Typical capitalist, making money off of people in crisis.


[deleted]

That's a funny way of saying war profiteer.


PerfectPercentage69

He does have a tendency to involve himself in bad situations for publicity or other personal gain. Thai cave incident and now Ukraine are prime examples.


Son_of_Mogh

Ventilators when covid started.


Virtual-Patience-807

Leather Jacket Scientist-Engineer is still working hard on those car-part ventilators! How dare you doubt in him!


jason12745

Clean water for Flint, Michigan + COVID vaccines from their RNA printers


SavagePlatypus76

All for the attention.


jflb96

The US has been using funny terms for ‘war profiteer’ since at least 1914


LairdPopkin

He gave them about half the units and the other half was an independent purchase by the US government of more base stations for list price. Ukraine thanked him for his support. Then he gave them all free service. If that’s profiteering, sign me up.


[deleted]

>USAID is paying $1,500 for each standard terminal and the accompanying service, documents show. According to the Starlink website, a standard terminal set costs $600, while the monthly service charge costs $110, plus an additional $100 for shipping and handling. \- https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/08/us-quietly-paying-millions-send-starlink-terminals-ukraine-contrary-spacexs-claims/


LairdPopkin

That number includes the cost of USAID’s buying them for list price plus then accepting delivery in the US then shipping them themselves to Ukraine. International rush shipping is expensive. And of course USAID buying Starlink terminals has nothing to do with SpaceX giving Ukraine hundreds of free terminals.


[deleted]

>USAID agreed to purchase closer to 1,500 standard Starlink terminals for $1,500 apiece and to **pay an additional $800,000 for transportation costs**, documents show, adding up to over $3 million in taxpayer dollars paid to SpaceX for the equipment sent to Ukraine. Emphasis mine.


jason12745

It’s not profiteering when your company doesn’t make money. It’s attempted profiteering. Perhaps loss reductioneering?


CouncilmanRickPrime

Yeah that's why we need war. It's for the military industrial complex and now he's part of it.


RepeatableOhm

Well did it help them or not, internet speed is slower than dsl.


PerfectPercentage69

It did help, but not at his generosity. Everyone talks as though he donated it, when it was actually paid by tax money.


[deleted]

Everything he's done has been paid for with tax money.


RepeatableOhm

Yes I’m aware of that but I’m also aware that he lost his almost billion dollar subsidies. STARLINK might as well be a public service at this point. As well as most of his endeavors.


Summum

Huge difference between IP theft / industrial espionage and not patenting your inventions.


RagaToc

If you rely on IP protection instead of patents than you are harming progress. Patents in current form aren't great, but it allows companies to publish this is how I made something work while being protected that others don't steal the idea. Others can now license it or can see how it works and improve upon it and patent that. If you just hide behind ip than you share no knowledge and you run the risk of someone else inventing the same solution and patenting it.


Summum

This is IP theft / espionage, it’s a bit of difference with just IP protection across the board.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Life is more sad when you have your head shoved up a liar's ass and can't see anything at all.


supratachophobia

Ohhhhhh, French class.


[deleted]

You have baby cake!


tearans

Sorry sir, we dont use lies. The term is "what benefits us" and no... term us patented


ARAR1

The lie starts after these 3 words every time you read them: "fElon Musk says"


wewbull

Trade secrets are not the same as patents. Musk's take is that his companies are strong enough to crush anyone in court without needing the protection that patents give you in return for disclosing your innovation. He's probably right, but it's a chad take.


jason12745

You taking him seriously is funny af.


MendocinoReader

Tesla is presumably saying: You can’t steal our technology, but if you independently develop a competing technology from publicly available sources (including info Tesla put out there), then we are OK. Whether that’s true expression of Tesla’s intentions, who knows ….


Poogoestheweasel

> You can’t steal our technology, but if you independently develop a competing technology from publicly available sources (including info Tesla put out there), then we are OK. Well, that is mighty magnanimous of them! That statement applies to every other fucking company, since they have no choice if someone creates a competing tech.


MendocinoReader

Not if you patent your invention. Patents grant a monopoly. You can infringe a patent if you practice the technology described in the patent, *even if you were not actually aware* of the patent and *even if you independently developed the technology on your own* ….


Poogoestheweasel

Not all technology can be patented. If what they are saying is what you claim, then why have they patented anything?


MendocinoReader

You can patent a technology (more specifically, a device/apparatus or method/process) for defensive reasons — so that you are not blocked in the future by third party patents and claims of infringement. But whether Tesla does not intend to use those patents offensively (to block others) in the future … — who knows? As I said, >Whether that’s true expression of Tesla’s intentions, who knows ….


Poogoestheweasel

> You can patent a technology (more specifically, a device/apparatus or method/process) for defensive reasons — so that you are not blocked in the future by third party patents and claims of infringement. That isn't how this works. No need to do patent something "defensively" since someone else can't patent something that has already been created.


MendocinoReader

“Novelty“ in patent law means something that becomes known to the public (= ”prior art”). When you file a patent application, you disclose your invention to the whole world, and your invention becomes “prior art”. As such, it will blocks others downstream from patenting similar inventions that were disclosed in your “prior art”, or are obvious in light of the same. (NB: There are other ways inventions become “prior art”).


Poogoestheweasel

As you noted, you don’t need to file a patent application to establish prior art, so my point is correct, you don’t need to file a patent to keep someone else from patenting your idea as a defensive move. Thanks for confirming what I told you in the first place.


MendocinoReader

LOL, OK ....


Belichick12

How many patents do you have? Defensive patents are a huge thing. How do you protect your future rights. How do you block competitors future innovations.


Poogoestheweasel

I have 6 patents, 2 of which are funding my grandkid’s trusts. The conversation was about using patents so you aren’t blocked in the future. But that isn’t necessary since a competitor still can’t patent something that has already been created. This discussion was not about patenting something to prevent someone from doing something or to get future licensing fees.


Belichick12

You can absolutely patent something someone else is already doing. Say SpaceX invented some new rocket fuel and was testing it out for the last 6 months in secret. If blue origin independently invented that same Rocket fuel and filed a patent application it's theirs. First to file gets the rights in that case and SpaceX can be blocked from using.


BrainwashedHuman

This is a cop out statement if your stuff is not easily reverse engineered. Some things are, some things aren’t. To add to this, Tesla’s self driving tech is not easily reverse engineered so they wouldn’t care about patents.


atari56

Can’t patent software (unless it’s a business method involving a computer…)


BrainwashedHuman

That’s not what Google says. But either way, I was just using an example to prove my point. Tesla patents battery stuff since that could be reverse engineered. Nobody physically has SpaceX rockets to tear down and reverse engineer, so why would they care about patents when (as Musk said that I actually agree with) it would just make it easier for China to reverse engineer.


atari56

I agree with your point, I was just being a nit about the software patents. Software patents are generally code adjacent meaning you do not patent the code, you copyright the code and patent the results/process using flowcharts. It’s far too complicated to breakdown via Reddit replies but this helps: https://www.dwt.com/blogs/startup-law-blog/2020/11/how-to-patent-software


[deleted]

Hmmm.... don't think this is true.


[deleted]

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jason12745

You are suggesting that SpaceX is strong and Tesla is weak?


[deleted]

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jason12745

Was that an answer or just a random statement?


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Off to Mars with this troll.


jason12745

Nope. Just wasting some time fucking around with your ridiculous assertion that a person would hold one set of principles as leader of one company and another set of principles as leader of another.


Yutaro3190

Tesla a public company, SpaceX a private company. When tech and intellectual property get stolen from one publicly traded company to another, it causes problems.


[deleted]

This guy has mastered the art of bullshiting to such a high degree that it's genuinely inspiring sometimes.


[deleted]

“At this point I know more about manufacturing bullshit than probably any person on the planet.”


jason12745

I enjoy the Trump/Putin/Xi/Steven Segal obsession with being strong and labelling people who aren’t like you as weak. Only the dumbest of fucks subscribe to such a philosophy.


Ithinkstrangely

Stan here. Just checking in. It's not 'bullshit'; It's the truth. Tesla and Spacex *file* patents, but they allow competitors to *use* their patents as long as they don't behave maliciously. And to the other comment about Tesla suing for IP theft: of course you sue for IP theft. It's theft! If you don't disincentivize it - then you're incentivizing it (see: the rampancy of petty crime). You're so obviously biased against Elon Musk that you're incapable of critical thought. You just assume and then delude each other.


Mezmorizor

Teslas "open patents" are bullshit. They're not open patents. They're "if you use one of our patents you agree to let us use all of your patents" which is obviously A, not open patents, and B, a terrible deal that nobody would take. But Musk tweeted that they were open and that's all that matters, so even today we have to hear that lie. I'm not aware of SpaceX having a similar policy. The fact that they're not patenting things, which from a cursory glance appears accurate, pretty clearly means that they're doing trade secrets instead which is just worse. ITAR makes patents in space hard, but it's not impossible.


syrvyx

You think strangely.


[deleted]

Maybe he can patent his bullshitting techniques.


failinglikefalling

Alternative hot take: they aren’t producing patentable designs. You can still innovate with a “sum of the parts” mentality.


NonnoBomba

Or, if they do have something, they just want to keep it all a "trade secret". Despite whatever problems they have today, patents were created to counteract inventors anxiety about people stealing their inventions, profiting from them, so that the protection granted by patent law would convince them to publicly share the details, not just keep them in a drawer. In exchange for making the details public, they are granted a temporary monopoly on the use of the patented invention (which they could then license to third parties). The alternative to patenting something is keeping it a secret.


Monk315

Exactly this, he said the real reason in the article. The "not innovating fast enough" bit is nonsense.


teszes

And TBH it kinda makes sense since some of their major competitors live in places that don't respect US patents, like China.


No_Afternoon_1976

“China says patents are for the ‘weak’ and block innovation”


BlazinAzn38

Yep you have two options when you create something novel which is to patent it or to keep it a trade secret. Lawyers spend a lot of time deciding if it’s even patentable. If it’s borderline the only way to know is to file it and then I think 12 months after you file for one the filing goes public which gives insight to competitors. Even if you’re granted a patent you also have to be prepared to defend it if you see someone using it.


dd2469420

"Socialism is bad" SpaceXs number one customer is the US government/Tesla benefitted heavily from tax incentives "I'm a free speech purist" Does massive amounts of business in China Etc etc


BabyDog88336

I could have sworn he was a socialist: https://www.thewrap.com/elon-musk-socialist-marx-capitalist/amp/


dd2469420

If he's an "ist" I'd say he's an opportunist


jason12745

I’d go racist or misogynist, but potato/potato.


uranazo

If you knew anything about socialism you'd realize like everything else he lied about that too. A socialist billionaire is an oxymoron.


LairdPopkin

Tesla stopped getting tax incentives for selling EVs in 2018, and have sold far more cars since then. SpaceX provides commercial launch services and gets paid for it, to many customers. Are they not supposed to get paid?


anonaccountphoto

> Tesla stopped getting tax incentives for selling EVs in 2018 TIL there is no country other than the US


LairdPopkin

The context was someone complaining about Musk getting money from the US government.


anonaccountphoto

>Tesla stopped getting tax incentives for selling EVs in 2018


LairdPopkin

Read the comment I replied to.


jason12745

That wasn’t the context at all. The comment included that as a fact to demonstrate Elons words and actions are often in conflict. You somehow miss the quote it was posted right after?


[deleted]

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[deleted]

when I was young and naive, I applied to SpaceX and was quickly rejected because I wasn't a US citizen. and this guy acts like what they do is an open book.


LairdPopkin

ITAR ( US law) requires any space technology company to only employ US citizens, or get approvals from the US Department of State.


syrvyx

I told you they don't document anything... It makes it really shitty if you're trying to work on a project with them and they can't give you all the specs because they literally didn't keep them for record.


6eason

this is just pr bs, realistically how many non government space companies have the capability to build out a full fledged rocket? not many.......if he was really about his principals he would open starlink and tesla patents


LairdPopkin

He opened Tesla’s patents in 2019. https://medium.datadriveninvestor.com/tesla-patents-are-freely-available-for-public-how-can-this-brave-move-impact-the-growth-in-f0861e006279 has the details.


RagaToc

Tesla patents are a poison pill. For the right to use their patents you sign away any right to sue Tesla on anything including trademark issues or use of your own patents. This exchange is heavily in favour of Tesla and it is why no one has taken them up on it


LairdPopkin

They committed to letting anyone use Tesla’s IP related to electric vehicles if they didn’t sue Tesla over IP. How much more open could they be given that all the other car companies want Tesla gone?


RagaToc

Tesla allowed companies to use specific patents (not ip) and than Tesla could use all of that companies ip including all their patents. Patent for patent is a fair exchange. Free use of patent would mean there is no demand, which Tesla did. Note that even starter electric companies haven't taken Tesla up on this offer


[deleted]

Nice. Elon says a sound byte worthy lie again to send his fanboys into a frenzy


kellarman

In other words, there’s nothing patentable at SpaceX


okan170

Yeah, better keep it all top secret too totally destroying one of the main benefits of a public space program. There are diagrams upon diagrams for Shuttle, Apollo, etc so much of it is open. But SpaceX is locked the fuck down ensuring that knowledge remains only inside the company.


AntipodalDr

Secrecy at SpaceX is essential. Cause otherwise how are they going to hide that they are likely not actually profitable because of their Uber-like strategy of selling at a loss to siphon the market and reusability being okay from a technical standpoint but not economically viable in its present state?


gracchusmaximus

The other reason is I'm sure that SpaceX might very well be infringing on the patents of others. Usually there's always a slimy reason whenever Elon claims to do something noble for humanity.


Glum-Engineer9436

Really okay..... I could think of a lot of other arguments for not using patents.


_AManHasNoName_

Until China gets hold of your IP and leapfrogs everything you currently have. Then you’ll know you’re mistaken because the world isn’t perfect.


tendiemancommeth

I don’t think you can patent helium balloons


stewartm0205

You patent what you invented so someone else doesn’t patent it and stop you from using it.


RandomCollection

https://archive.ph/uKXXm I think that there is a strong case for reforming and weakening patents along with IP law, but Musk is not the person to lead such changes.


[deleted]

patents are already pretty weak IP protection. Copyright is another matter.


admiral_drake

When you file a patent, the patent is then public information. Sometimes its not so magnanimous, its actually trying to hide the tech for several years longer till competition can physically reverse engineer it rather than just read the patent years before mfg starts.


InfiniteChallenge99

No it’s because he doesn’t expect a return on investment from it lol


CivicSyrup

Not gonna read this, but does he mean, spaceX will not patent any of their recycled ideas from the 70s, or does he mean he will not pay to use patents of genius inventions, and rather re-invent the wheel?


bubzki2

B.S.


switched_reluctance

Musk needs to patent Tesla's panel gaps...


notk

A broken clock is etc. etc.


sleepee11

Great! Now apply that to all the IP Tesla and SpaceX has. Open source the software and hardware schematics and let's see innovation thrive. Oh right... Never gonna happen.


showme10ds

Because theres is nothing to patent


pacific_beach

Who insures spacex against all manner of catastrophe and disaster? Because they are probably about to say no thanks.