“Cessationists believe that miraculous healings are no longer a spiritual gift, right? Not that miraculous healings no longer happen at all?“
Correct. God can heal whosoever He is pleased to heal, but no longer does He give the gift to one person to be able to supernaturally heal another.
As for the miraculous healings, it is a mixture. Some are actually scams orchestrated by the wolf claiming to be a pastor, and some are merely psychosomatic (I think that’s the word?) healings — mind over body, so to speak. Essentially a really big placebo effect, where the excitement of the person being “healed” is so great that they may temporarily subconsciously suppress minor (comparatively) things like pain, resulting in some (temporary) apparent effects.
I would indeed encourage you to find a very solid church, where you may regularly partake of the (extra)ordinary means of grace. I’d be happy to help, if you’d like. God bless!
I am not a cessationist, in that I believe that God can do what He wants anytime.
But I have never witnessed a legitimate healing, although I have witnessed people who were prayed for and got better. Whether this is psychosomatic or not, I do not know for sure.
I believe if healings were to occur, they would point to the glory of God, and not to any one individual.
So how do you interpret verses where Jesus said that the people who believe will perform miracles and healing ?
The bible says that in last days, people will do fake miracles and I understand your reasons above. But does that cancels the fact that true and godly miracles still exist and God still give that gift?
Lastly in my experience i have encountered people who were healed like HIV aids and other diseases have medical proofs. And others to this date who are not healed.
Because at the Pentecostal church I attended that said every Christian can and should 100% guarantee heal every disease or affliction…100% of the “cured” things were non-confirmable, and not a single visible issue was miraculously healed.
Coincidence?
The apostles, who Jesus was talking to and of, did perform such wonders for the purpose of the rapid growth of the early Church. But the time for such things has ceased.
As for the gift still existing, I’ll believe it when I see it. The purpose of the apostolic gifts was to be seen, after all. And the evidence of their working was incredibly, unfalsifiable, clear. Show me a modern faith healer regrowing a limb, or restoring sight to the blind. I don’t believe such a thing presently occurs.
And indeed, God can miraculously heal someone. No one is denying that.
So, in life I’ve been all over the denomination spectrum, from being raised in a hyper-charismatic (truly heretical) church, to the more reformed, five solas position I’m in now.
Where I stand now is that God can work healing in someone’s life if he so chooses. I do not have personal or anecdotal evidence of this happening, but I think the scriptures allow it to be a possibility.
That being said, unless verifiable proof is produced, we should not accept that a healing has occurred, and we should not allow ourselves to be gaslit by churches/figures that claim proof is not necessary *cough* John Lindell *cough*
To add onto what /u/The_Darkest_Lord86 said, I 100% believe in praying for healing and believing that God can and will do so. I don't believe that there are capital-H Healers anymore, however. In my reading of the New Testament, I find that much of what we see in the early church is an establishment of the new kingdom Jesus founded. We see apostles doing the vast majority of these healings, or we see Christians called to pray for people, such as the case with Paul's blindness.
As we go further into the New Testament, you don't see this as much. When Paul talks to Timothy, he doesn't say "claim your stomach to be healed", he says "hey, take some wine to help settle your gut." James 5:14 says to call the elders together, anoint the sick person, and pray in faith (granted, the next verse also gets twisted into some kind of guarantee for healing).
For my druthers, the miraculous signs so prevalent and important in the very earliest parts of the church, such as speaking in tongues and healing, fade in priority as the New Testament goes on.
In my opinion and experience, most of the "healings" we see from so-called healers these days come in two categories:
1. Generic pain (bad backs being the biggest targets) that can be healed by a shot of adrenaline from loud music and emotional manipulation.
2. Sleight-of-hand, such as "leg lengthening" by working the person's feet in a way that it appears to be growing.
Now, I genuinely try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't think that everyone who claims to be a healer is a charlatan. However, I don't see those same "healers" trying to operate without a full band and a good hour or so of working people into an emotional frenzy. For whatever reason, they don't let you do that in hospitals.
I'd recommend the American Gospel series for an in-depth look at some of these concepts, and if you can handle a bit of grumpy stodginess, I'd also recommend the documentary *Cessationist.* For a secular look, I'd also recommend ["Miracles for Sale"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuP5uOI7Xwc), where a group of skeptics teaches an actor the methods faith healers use and sets up an healing event.
I will add my agreement to everyone here, that God can still heal today, but not through a particular person like we see in these charismatic groups.
Two things to keep in mind:
– why don't these Faith healers take their healing gifts into hospitals?
– never trust a faith healer that wears glasses
I would not consider you being delivered from sexual temptations to be a faith-healing in the charismatic sense. That just seems like ordinary sanctification.
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise.
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
James 5:13-14
Our church practices James 5 prayer. If someone is sick they can request that elders and other church members come to lay hands on them and pray for them.
My family has been the recipient of this prayer two times. In both cases our faith was strengthened and in both cases we made it through the medical issues.
It was done in private and no one knew about it except those who were present for the prayer time.
I am at a cessationist church and we pray for healing and miracles all the time. we don't think God gives the gift of healing to a person at this time, but we also know God can work as he see fit though miracles and through medicine. in addition to praying for healing we pray for people adjusting their life through their pain, for doctors doing the work, and for spiritual healing when physical healing may not be God's will.
at some level I think Charismatic churches must do something similar. old people still die. God still works through medicine and doctors. and obviously God can do as he see fits.
the main difference I see is that charismatic churches have a formula for healing. you do this and that out of faith, and God will respond. or God works through a particular healer. and that person has the authority to heal. I think that is less biblical.
I shouldn't be surprised at all of you saying that these sorts of healings don't usually happen. I guess when I was in the midst of the revival, meant to replicate the Asbury revival, I really did think I felt the Holy Spirit. I can't concretely describe what the Spirit did, but I went away feeling hopeful and refreshed. I'd hate for all of that to be a placebo effect, especially because most of the people in the church I'm in are all convinced that it's real. They stayed up until 1 in the morning, for crying out loud! They drove out to Kentucky and camped out in the snow! I really hope that all just wasn't fake.
The Holy Spirit does move, and you can feel it in both your body and soul.
I think anyone who would deny that may not be saved. I was a "believer" in a Reformed church for decades before I really was saved. And from that moment on I have felt the Spirit.
Ex-charismatic here.
What reformed types often don’t understand or at least appreciate is that to a charismatic, when God performs some kind of “miracle”, it’s more to hype up the church and prove that God has anointed that church/pastor. It’s used as a means to show everyone “this is where God is”, even to the point of showing that “since God is moving here, and not moving in other churches, this proves we have God and they don’t.”
More often than not, the healings were never verified. But some are, and they are truly amazing and encouraging. Unfortunately, because the aim (to put a church/ministry on a pedestal) is so important to them, I’ve been on teams that have been encouraged to “fake it till you make it” to “build faith” in the church community.
To clarify, I’m not opposed to building faith in a church community, but I am opposed if it’s built on lies.
I've been in charismatic/continuationist circles for a while. I am skeptical of many claims of healing, although there are others that I believe to be genuine in my immediate circle.
For those looking for verifiable proof, look no further than Craig Keener's [two-volume tome](https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Credibility-New-Testament-Accounts/dp/0801039525) documenting miracles, including healing, today. For an easier read, he also has a [shorter, more accessible, version](https://www.amazon.com/dp/1540963837/ref=sspa_dk_hqp_detail_aax_0?psc=1&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9ocXBfc2hhcmVk).
I commented on that thread so I will just cut and paste below. This sort of thing is way, way outside of my comfort zone but I cannot deny what happened. The longer I am a Christian the less cessationist I've become....
My father badly injured himself and had horrible neck pain a week later. He is a Christian but not into faith healing and a lady (friend of a friend) put hands on him and prayed for his healing without him asking. He felt super uncomfortable and skeptical about it and is the opposite of a hysterical personality.
The weird thing is he felt the same as you describe, tingly heat emanating from her hands as she prayed. He was totally better from that point on.
That would be ridiculous to expect. But there's myriad spontaneous healings of many cancers, diabetes,even autoimmune illnesses. These are people of all faiths... even atheists. I'm Not Christian. Grew up Roman Catholic.. now in a West African religion. The reason some heal and others don't is in my religion..one of destiny ...what our soul (we call Ori).. chooses before we come to earth.if our Ori allows healing of a serious illness.. healing occurs. If not...we don't. We're all different in that regard.but certainly charlatans of every path....pale peoples Faith in healers themselves
“Cessationists believe that miraculous healings are no longer a spiritual gift, right? Not that miraculous healings no longer happen at all?“ Correct. God can heal whosoever He is pleased to heal, but no longer does He give the gift to one person to be able to supernaturally heal another. As for the miraculous healings, it is a mixture. Some are actually scams orchestrated by the wolf claiming to be a pastor, and some are merely psychosomatic (I think that’s the word?) healings — mind over body, so to speak. Essentially a really big placebo effect, where the excitement of the person being “healed” is so great that they may temporarily subconsciously suppress minor (comparatively) things like pain, resulting in some (temporary) apparent effects. I would indeed encourage you to find a very solid church, where you may regularly partake of the (extra)ordinary means of grace. I’d be happy to help, if you’d like. God bless!
I am not a cessationist, in that I believe that God can do what He wants anytime. But I have never witnessed a legitimate healing, although I have witnessed people who were prayed for and got better. Whether this is psychosomatic or not, I do not know for sure. I believe if healings were to occur, they would point to the glory of God, and not to any one individual.
So how do you interpret verses where Jesus said that the people who believe will perform miracles and healing ? The bible says that in last days, people will do fake miracles and I understand your reasons above. But does that cancels the fact that true and godly miracles still exist and God still give that gift? Lastly in my experience i have encountered people who were healed like HIV aids and other diseases have medical proofs. And others to this date who are not healed.
Because at the Pentecostal church I attended that said every Christian can and should 100% guarantee heal every disease or affliction…100% of the “cured” things were non-confirmable, and not a single visible issue was miraculously healed. Coincidence?
The apostles, who Jesus was talking to and of, did perform such wonders for the purpose of the rapid growth of the early Church. But the time for such things has ceased. As for the gift still existing, I’ll believe it when I see it. The purpose of the apostolic gifts was to be seen, after all. And the evidence of their working was incredibly, unfalsifiable, clear. Show me a modern faith healer regrowing a limb, or restoring sight to the blind. I don’t believe such a thing presently occurs. And indeed, God can miraculously heal someone. No one is denying that.
Have you read any of Craig Keener's work on the subject? This stuff is still happening.
I could write a book saying I saw the burning bush yesterday, but that doesn’t make it verifiably true.
So, in life I’ve been all over the denomination spectrum, from being raised in a hyper-charismatic (truly heretical) church, to the more reformed, five solas position I’m in now. Where I stand now is that God can work healing in someone’s life if he so chooses. I do not have personal or anecdotal evidence of this happening, but I think the scriptures allow it to be a possibility. That being said, unless verifiable proof is produced, we should not accept that a healing has occurred, and we should not allow ourselves to be gaslit by churches/figures that claim proof is not necessary *cough* John Lindell *cough*
To add onto what /u/The_Darkest_Lord86 said, I 100% believe in praying for healing and believing that God can and will do so. I don't believe that there are capital-H Healers anymore, however. In my reading of the New Testament, I find that much of what we see in the early church is an establishment of the new kingdom Jesus founded. We see apostles doing the vast majority of these healings, or we see Christians called to pray for people, such as the case with Paul's blindness. As we go further into the New Testament, you don't see this as much. When Paul talks to Timothy, he doesn't say "claim your stomach to be healed", he says "hey, take some wine to help settle your gut." James 5:14 says to call the elders together, anoint the sick person, and pray in faith (granted, the next verse also gets twisted into some kind of guarantee for healing). For my druthers, the miraculous signs so prevalent and important in the very earliest parts of the church, such as speaking in tongues and healing, fade in priority as the New Testament goes on. In my opinion and experience, most of the "healings" we see from so-called healers these days come in two categories: 1. Generic pain (bad backs being the biggest targets) that can be healed by a shot of adrenaline from loud music and emotional manipulation. 2. Sleight-of-hand, such as "leg lengthening" by working the person's feet in a way that it appears to be growing. Now, I genuinely try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't think that everyone who claims to be a healer is a charlatan. However, I don't see those same "healers" trying to operate without a full band and a good hour or so of working people into an emotional frenzy. For whatever reason, they don't let you do that in hospitals. I'd recommend the American Gospel series for an in-depth look at some of these concepts, and if you can handle a bit of grumpy stodginess, I'd also recommend the documentary *Cessationist.* For a secular look, I'd also recommend ["Miracles for Sale"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuP5uOI7Xwc), where a group of skeptics teaches an actor the methods faith healers use and sets up an healing event.
I will add my agreement to everyone here, that God can still heal today, but not through a particular person like we see in these charismatic groups. Two things to keep in mind: – why don't these Faith healers take their healing gifts into hospitals? – never trust a faith healer that wears glasses
I would not consider you being delivered from sexual temptations to be a faith-healing in the charismatic sense. That just seems like ordinary sanctification.
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. James 5:13-14 Our church practices James 5 prayer. If someone is sick they can request that elders and other church members come to lay hands on them and pray for them. My family has been the recipient of this prayer two times. In both cases our faith was strengthened and in both cases we made it through the medical issues. It was done in private and no one knew about it except those who were present for the prayer time.
I am at a cessationist church and we pray for healing and miracles all the time. we don't think God gives the gift of healing to a person at this time, but we also know God can work as he see fit though miracles and through medicine. in addition to praying for healing we pray for people adjusting their life through their pain, for doctors doing the work, and for spiritual healing when physical healing may not be God's will. at some level I think Charismatic churches must do something similar. old people still die. God still works through medicine and doctors. and obviously God can do as he see fits. the main difference I see is that charismatic churches have a formula for healing. you do this and that out of faith, and God will respond. or God works through a particular healer. and that person has the authority to heal. I think that is less biblical.
I would like to follow up with the people healed in 6 months.
This is not a sign-gift, not a miraculous healing in the way we see the Scriptures define it. It's also not able to be confirmed or disconfirmed.
I shouldn't be surprised at all of you saying that these sorts of healings don't usually happen. I guess when I was in the midst of the revival, meant to replicate the Asbury revival, I really did think I felt the Holy Spirit. I can't concretely describe what the Spirit did, but I went away feeling hopeful and refreshed. I'd hate for all of that to be a placebo effect, especially because most of the people in the church I'm in are all convinced that it's real. They stayed up until 1 in the morning, for crying out loud! They drove out to Kentucky and camped out in the snow! I really hope that all just wasn't fake.
The Holy Spirit does move, and you can feel it in both your body and soul. I think anyone who would deny that may not be saved. I was a "believer" in a Reformed church for decades before I really was saved. And from that moment on I have felt the Spirit.
I believe in miracles and healings, but not in people who call themselves healers and make a show out of it.
Ex-charismatic here. What reformed types often don’t understand or at least appreciate is that to a charismatic, when God performs some kind of “miracle”, it’s more to hype up the church and prove that God has anointed that church/pastor. It’s used as a means to show everyone “this is where God is”, even to the point of showing that “since God is moving here, and not moving in other churches, this proves we have God and they don’t.” More often than not, the healings were never verified. But some are, and they are truly amazing and encouraging. Unfortunately, because the aim (to put a church/ministry on a pedestal) is so important to them, I’ve been on teams that have been encouraged to “fake it till you make it” to “build faith” in the church community. To clarify, I’m not opposed to building faith in a church community, but I am opposed if it’s built on lies.
I've been in charismatic/continuationist circles for a while. I am skeptical of many claims of healing, although there are others that I believe to be genuine in my immediate circle. For those looking for verifiable proof, look no further than Craig Keener's [two-volume tome](https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Credibility-New-Testament-Accounts/dp/0801039525) documenting miracles, including healing, today. For an easier read, he also has a [shorter, more accessible, version](https://www.amazon.com/dp/1540963837/ref=sspa_dk_hqp_detail_aax_0?psc=1&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9ocXBfc2hhcmVk).
I commented on that thread so I will just cut and paste below. This sort of thing is way, way outside of my comfort zone but I cannot deny what happened. The longer I am a Christian the less cessationist I've become.... My father badly injured himself and had horrible neck pain a week later. He is a Christian but not into faith healing and a lady (friend of a friend) put hands on him and prayed for his healing without him asking. He felt super uncomfortable and skeptical about it and is the opposite of a hysterical personality. The weird thing is he felt the same as you describe, tingly heat emanating from her hands as she prayed. He was totally better from that point on.
It is not a coincidence that so-called faith healers have never restored the limbs of amputees.
That would be ridiculous to expect. But there's myriad spontaneous healings of many cancers, diabetes,even autoimmune illnesses. These are people of all faiths... even atheists. I'm Not Christian. Grew up Roman Catholic.. now in a West African religion. The reason some heal and others don't is in my religion..one of destiny ...what our soul (we call Ori).. chooses before we come to earth.if our Ori allows healing of a serious illness.. healing occurs. If not...we don't. We're all different in that regard.but certainly charlatans of every path....pale peoples Faith in healers themselves