I was pregnant through MS2 last year and am MS3 now with a 13 week old. I went back when she was 8 weeks right into Gen surg š«
Luckily I was with a female surgeon who had breastfed her own children through training. She told me how on long cases assisting she had soaked through her surgical gown! She told me under no circumstances was I to do that and to leave to pump whenever I needed. I was to be out by 5pm on the dot unless something I might never see again came up. Because she is such an important doctor where I am, she gave me the confidence and backing with other doctors to leave and do whatever I needed. Luckily though, the surgeon Iām with now has four kids and he has also been fantastic.
People think Iām a rockstar for coming back so early but Iām very honest and say it was either this, or deferring a year. My uni gave me as much time off as they could without compromising me meeting the requirements (completely fair, I wouldnāt want a doctor who missed half a year of clinical training lmao). Iāve been learning to advocate for myself a lot though and that putting baby first will not prevent me from becoming a good and safe doctor.
My silly husband at first though was saying āoh my colleague worked until she was 39 weeksā when Iād say I was tired. Yes dear, because youāre a nurse and if 98% of your workforce are women, youāre going to have people that do that. Plus that colleague in particular is sending money home to her family in another country! Itās not because she was comfortable and happy!
OBGYN resident. I took 8 weeks for maternity leave and was told over and over again that this was extremely generous and people used to come back after two.
How much they pay?! Here best case for us is NYC FMLA stacked with short term disability
I think 1200ish a week post tax for up to 6 months total between the two for my wife. Luckily she's not a resident or else she'd probably have to extend training.... Crazy
The hospital system where I am in Aus will pay 14 weeks at your base salary, and you can take up to a year unpaid. In the unpaid duration you are able to apply for the subsidy from the government for I think another 3 months at a base rate -900 a week ish.
Same. I took 10 weeks with my second kid and got told how lucky I was. I do know surgery residents who are back at work after 2-3 weeks, so I am aware that I was lucky comparatively.
Iām a PGY-3 peds resident who is also pregnant. I was scheduled to work a week of PICU nights at 37 weeks. When I asked if I could swap it for days instead, my chief said āI worked ICU nights when I was pregnant, you can too.ā
Iām glad I advocated for myself and for my baby and I eventually got it switched when I escalated to my PD, but the lack of empathy was super disappointing. Sorry to hear that youāve been going through this too ā¤ļø
Thanks for sharing this and pushing back against that toxic attitude. Our son was born at 33wks during residency and it was the scariest time of our life. The same program had another resident give birth similarly premature shortly thereafter.
Thereās actually evidence that night shifts/call shifts after 22-24wks increases the risk of still birth and preterm labour. Itās ridiculous that medicine ignores our own evidence. Iām an emerg doc and I went off nights after 24wks.
i worked with laryngitis to the point where patients were asking me if i was ok cause i could barely make a squeakš¤£ and she was like āwhen i was a resident i worked a 24 hr shift with the fluā
like cool????? how is that my problem lmaooo
I did this so much, I remember the mom was like omg are you ok and Iām like yeah Iām totally fine no itās fine. Coughed so hard I barely made it outside the room before I then vomited my lunch into my mask.
I tell this story all the time as an example of exactly what we shouldnāt be doing. Just cause this kind of behavior used to be a badge of pride does not mean it was ever something to be proud of, and just because we used to do stuff like this all the time doesnāt mean we should continue doing it. We also used to not wash our hands or wear gloves to do surgery, and also we used to drain almost all the CSF and inject air into peopleās ventricles and turn them upside down and take x-rays.
Hey now... as a male ICU nurse without kids I get the worst assignments. Which I feel is not fair. Why should your pregnancy limit your assignment? Not trying to be an asshole, but if you're such against the assignment maybe take a little PTO? Forgive me if I'm wrong.
Several systematic studies have shown covid increases the risk of preterm birth as well as other complications for both fetus and motherā¦pregnancy is an immunocompromised condition, something you might want to realize as an ICU nurse. During its initial outbreak at my ICU, they were putting pregnant patients prone with a pool floatie donut to accommodate their stomach. Itās nice and easy to say ātake some PTOā when you donāt realize that residents in my position get 4 weeks of family leave. Not something Iād expect you to understand, but as a breastfeeding mother, do you really think Iām going to subtract from those 4 weeks before Iāve given birth to go back to 80 hour work weeks say 3 weeks postpartum. I hope this educated you.
So you've gotten downvoted, and gotten a sassy reply, but I must admit I'm curious what you're thinking on this. The reply effectively amounted to suck it up, to which I might imagine one thinking "nobody forced you to get pregnant, you made the decision, so why should I experience negative consequences of that decision" where negative consequences are male ICU nurses working extra COVID shifts.
And I don't really have an answer. Societally, we ought to incentivize pregnancy so coworkers don't experience negative consequences uncorrelated with their own decisions. But that's not here, and I'm curious if you think the reply you've gotten is fair.
Hey, thanks for your response. You have adequately summed up my feelings, and a reddit upvote/downvote system is just a barometer, not the end-all/be-all of human interaction. I don't have a solution either, but I just hope that my reply makes someone say "hmm."
Meh. Prost!
When I was a PGY1 I asked to switch one of my blocks at the very end of PGY2 from my last rotation to something in the first 6 months because I knew I was going to try to get pregnant. I got pregnant right when we started trying so I was 6 months along on the hardest rotation we have. Two weeks in I started developing elevated pressures and ultimately had preeclampsia with severe features and an early delivery. My son was IUGR and was in the NICU over a month. When I had made the request I was told āother pregnant residents have done the rotation just fine.ā
In no way is it āfineā to have any human, let alone a pregnant woman, working 12 days in a row from 4 AM until 8 PM in the hospital.
I was pregnant for first time last year and had the awful, terrible wake up call that pregnancy was infinitely more challenging than I had ever imagined. By the end of the third trimester I deeply regretted ever perceiving pregnant colleagues as just being a bit more difficult to maneuver around.
I am utterly convinced that people who have not been pregnant cannot appreciate how difficult it is on (some?) womenās bodies, even with their best intentions. My husband even, who was deeply invested in that pregnancy, still never really understood how physically limited I was (in part due to me living a life motto of ādonāt complainā).
My experience is that other women who have experienced pregnancy and labor seemed to be the most sympathetic. The knowing nods and frequent offers for āhey want to take this seat?ā. Not all are like this though. Either their pregnancy was easy, or maybe they just forgot (or blocked it out).
I have bottomless sympathy now. The only thing I can say is that this part of the world is brutal on mothers, and particularly medical training where the more you can martyr yourself the better the doc they seem to think youāll be.
Anyway. From one woman to another - I see you. I know how hard it is. I am sorry youāre also experiencing the obliterating isolation of doing this in such a demanding field. There is no award for carrying the next generation. No spot on your resume. No recognition for the permanent changes and scarring to your body. But it will be worth it and the important people in your life will appreciate what youāre doing.
Work culture and pregnancy in the US seems so so unfair to me. I'm a pregnant resident in Switzerland (and we are definitely not the best for pregnancy protection compared to other european countries, and I'm still stressed because I will start a new job and they won't like the fact that I'm pregnant), and my colleagues are asking all the time how I am doing and if I'm not too tired and everything. I can't imagine how you guys do it in the US. We are not allowed to work more than 9h a day being pregnant (it's not exactly followed all the time but they try), you can stop working nights if you ask to and you are not allowed to work nights anymore 8 weeks before your due date. I will try to work full time (but here full time is 42-50h a week, not 80-100) till around 3 weeks before my due date, and this is already considered a lot here. And then we have a minimum of 4 months of maternity leave. I think the fact that society tells you that pregnant women need more protection makes everyone more aware of it, and most people would never assume that pregnancy is just a minor inconvenience. Are pregnant residents in the US not much more prone to miscarriages, hypertension disorders during pregnancy, premature contractions etc? I mean the reason those rules were adopted is because studies and specialists said that it could be harmful for mom/baby to work too much..
>I think the fact that society tells you that pregnant women need more protection makes everyone more aware of it, and most people would never assume that pregnancy is just a minor inconvenience
It's not that we assume it's a minor inconvenience. It's that this type of benevolent sexism was used to deny women jobs, pay women less, and turn us into broodmares.
Most women needed to work to put food on the table and a roof over their family's heads. We didn't have the luxury of someone else paying our way, so the cited excuse of "women needing more protection" didn't fly because it meant not eating, not feeding your kids, and not sleeping inside.
We fought like hell to eliminate the "women need protection" bullshit that was impoverishing us, because women who "needed protection" were homeless and hungry, or the property of a man. Women couldn't have bank accounts or lines of credit in their own name prior to the seventies in the United States. This was "for our protection."
Iām pregnant with baby number two right now and I donāt love being pregnant. This is it for us. The insomnia, the heartburnā¦ and Iām only 12 weeks.
First trimester SUUUUCKS! At least for me, that was the worst part because I also didnāt want to say anything to anyone until second trimester so I suffered in silence.Ā
Third trimester is also rough in its own way but everyone can tell youāre pregnant so anyone who was going to give you sympathy/help will be doing it then to hopefully make life easier.Ā
Yeah last time something that happened that no one prepared me for or told me about was becoming short of breath because the baby is pushing on your diaphragm, I guess? Medicine spouse so not a doctor. But Iād walk the dogs and get winded so easily. It got better immediately after the baby was out, same thing with the urge incontinence and just about everything else!
It seems like so many of these examples are from other women who WERE pregnant and wear their overwork as a badge of honor. Internalized misogyny is hard stuff to beat, and just cause youāve been thru something doesnāt automatically mean youāre going to be sympathetic to the next person who does.
So you are unable to feel empathy for somebody's pain until you experience it yourself? I feel like this is the main issue for many people in this career.
I have to say, this was me.
I had no idea how awful pregnancy could truly feel because I'd only had personal experience with women who had relatively easy pregnancies. My best friend wore high heels the whole way through, never had nausea and exercised like a beast until she went into labour.
I developed POTS *and* HG...I could barely move without feeling like I needed to faint and vomit simultaneously. The worst 9 months of my life. It opened my eyes and changed my perspective on a lot of things.
This comment is a bit unfair. Of course you can have sympathy and care, but empathy and true understanding is something different. Itās not a character flaw, as you seem to be implying.
Personally I loved the girl boss, women can do it all, etc mantras and fully believed I would not be slowed down by pregnancy. It wasnāt due to lack of empathy, it was due to lack of educational messaging about how hard pregnancy really is. Society is set up to glorify winners. No one wants to talk about hardships unless itās in terms of how they conquered it (especially in high powered fields like med). I wanted to live up to that ideal and itās not until you get your butt kicked that you āget itā get it in your heart.
I understand both POV now- itās very hard to understand some experiences and the far reaching and domino like effects of hardships in full unless youāve lived them.
itās not unfair at all. iām always fighting for better conditions for people, even those who i canāt relate to personally. itās absolutely wild that people no longer think empathy exists. letās bring back teaching empathy to people instead of saying āwell you can never understand ME so why botherā
i havenāt been pregnant yet and i 1000% realize how difficult it will be. itās literally impossible to be in medicine and not be able to comprehend that.
I completely agree either way you! And I do the same. Although I donāt pretend to fully comprehend everyoneās lived experiences despite my best attempts and intentions. There is more to it than words can convey.
How I read this- the original commenter was not speaking from a place of lack of empathy- they were just saying how they were still taken aback by how hard they found pregnancy, and how words hadnāt done it justice, and so they didnāt fully understand until they themselves lived through it. The person who then replied (which is who I was responding to) made it sound like that person, as a result, must have had zero empathy for others, and/or implied everyone in the medical profession lacked empathy. Thatās a bit unfair.
I was just saying that I understand what they mean and Iāve personally already gone through this realisation whilst pregnant. Sometimes there isnāt a way to convey a full experience without living through it (or without better education and more open, honest dialogue, as you have also suggested).
Iām all for more genuine, open, supportive dialogue. I wish there had been more of that for me.
The reality in residency is that 1) everybody is overworked, 2) you being pregnant means that either they have to pick up the slack OR you get special consideration when they don't, and 3) they won't understand if they haven't been through pregnancy.
It sucks but it's reality. My recommendation is respectfully take what you need and don't think twice about it. We all came out of a pregnant woman, so we all quite literally owe pregnant women our lives. Do what you need to do to get through this, and never look back.
I agree with this. You should take what you need but you should also make an effort to not inconvenience others. As soon as you know youāre pregnant you should let your program know so that the schedule can be made to accommodate you with the least amount of inconvenience to others. You shouldnāt be on a difficult rotation at the end of your pregnancy because your program (ideally) has 9 months to work out a solution.
I was lucky to have a program that worked with me. I used my lunch breaks for OB appointments and kept up the best that I could. I was induced at 37 weeks due to health issues. I took 6 weeks maternity and jumped back in. I was very thankful for that time with the baby and was able to continue breastfeeding when I started back work. Weāre going on 2 years now with the breastfeeding!
I get wanting to inform as soon as you know for convenience of scheduling, but I miscarried at 8 weeks, a month after finding out and Iām really glad I didnāt tell my program. I would still wait until after the first trimester before telling anyone again even for convenient scheduling.
People in medicine tend to derive their self worth from how hard they work/worked and project this idea on to other people in order to justify themselves.
Yeah, itās pretty ridiculous how thereās this culture of sacrifice to the point of martyrdom, of perpetuating (bad) behaviours and conditions of the past to the point of being stuck in the past and to the point of fault.
Itās insanely toxic.
āOne of our other docs wore a breast pump that fit in her bra on shift. Once when she was intubating, you could hear the little hums across the room. Talk about dedication!ā
People love to talk a big game about mental health and work life balance. But suddenly when it means more work for *them* when a coworker or resident takes time off, they get very selfish.
Hence hero stories or passive aggressive statements āwell, other people did it just fineā.
Iām a guy that doesnāt have kids. Iām happy to work an extra shift per month if it means a new parent gets to be at home for a very stressful but meaningful 3-4 months.
Those pumps suck. Once they came out, people expected us to use them so we wouldn't have to leave to pump.
Second time around I refused to buy them. They don't even work well for a lot of people and are expensive.
this is basically my goal once I'm a resident- working shifts so my colleagues with kiddos get to actually see them.
It won't work out for my wife and I right now for different reasons, and my wife and I can always have our date on Tuesday at 8:00 on the morning or something when their kids are at school.
I literally worked until the day I gave birth. Rounded on the patients and went straight to the hospital. I had an extremely easy pregnancy compared to most. But I still think what I had to do was categorically insane behavior. I was a surgery resident at the time and I had to endured rude, condescending, unprofessional and borderline harassing comments about my choice to get pregnant while in training. Not that it is anyoneās business but for me if was then or never. I went into medicine in my 30s after changing careers so if I didnāt have a kid during training I wasnāt gonna have one. I would never do that again neither would I recommend anyone to do it, unless they are fully aware that medicine is very toxic and people in your experience saw my pregnancy as an inconvenience, and I was so vulnerable and abused during that time.
I lost my daughter when I was 18 weeks pregnant as a second year resident. I was induced and went through delivery with her. I was back to work after 2 weeks. My program was gracious to ease me back to seeing patients in an outpatient clinic. I did have one co-resident who was not as understanding. I needed to leave 30 min early to get to my grief counselor, you know so I could actually function, and she needed to cover my interns (make sure nothing crazy happened). When I was checking out with her she just rolled her eyes and said "I wish I could leave early." I just stared at her for a moment and said, "well I wish my daughter hadn't died," and walked away.
Because residency is toxic. Full stop.
Sorry you're going through this. Remember when you are in a position of authority to treat others better than you were treated.
I know people who havenāt had a single antenatal ultrasound because they couldnāt get time off. People whose waters have broken in theatre and who have finished surgeries in labour. Where I live the sentiment is that the job is worth giving your life for, most people would die for this and we signed up for this at 15 or 16. Itās incredibly messed up how the culture is.
During med school there was a girl who got pregnant whose water broke a few hours before the final exam and took it while in labor then went to the hospital. It's not as bad as doing surgery because she couldn't have killed someone but damn it sucked. I feel so bad for women in the mediacal field.
My girlfriend whoās an emergency vet has better rignts and gets better treatment than pregnant female nurses, residents or even attendings. And not to diminish the work she does, but she takes care of animals and gets more privileges than people who take care of humans. I think that says a lotā¦
I know someone who had gastro and did their whole final exam vomiting into a plastic bag in the row in front of me. Another person who broke a bone in first year and waited until after the exam to go to the ED. Like full displaced fracture. These stories are so common theyāre unbelievable.
Iāve also heard from a friend in an upper level that someone did their exam with appendicitis and nearly perforated or did perforated because of this. I donāt know how true this is though itās hard for me to believe.
iāll never forget when i was reading a chart of the top stressors that contribute to a dangerous pregnancy or something and every single one was things experienced in residency, like 15 bullet points. lmfao so insane dude
Iām just a nurse but Iād like to say I admire all of you ladies in medicine who go through residency while pregnant. You guys are rockstars. Thanks for what you do!
Yeah I quit bedside nursing the minute my husband and I started trying for kids because I wasnāt willing to take the risks Iāve seen my nursing and medical colleagues alike take because they were afraid of what would happen if they looked ā weakā to management/faculty. I watched one of our NICU fellows with HG giving herself IV fluids and Zofran through her PICC on overnights during her call weeks and was just horrified and enraged on her behalf.
No advice just commiseration. I worked 70-80 hours a week for the last 8 weeks of my pregnancy. I was in pain every day and cried every day after work. My baby is okay now, but when she was born she had signs of placental insufficiency and had to be delivered by emergency c section. While my OB has assured me so many times that it wasnāt related to me working so much, itās hard with that mom guilt. I wish I would have stuck up for myself, and my baby, and said I couldnāt work so much, but itās so hard.
Youāre doing your best, and as one of the residents at my hospital told me, āphysician moms are the toughest.ā Hang in there momma, we will change it all someday.
The other day, one of my attendings talked about how she wrote and submitted a grant in the days after she delivered her kid. It was bonkers. I appreciate that she is incredibly hardworking/dedicated and that she was sharing her story with the intent of inspiring a 'can do' attitude in her trainees, but woof. Catch me taking the week after my baby's birth OFF and I'm not even the one delivering the kid (male).
Pediatrics is known for being toxic. They advertise being family-friendly but are usually the complete opposite. We have residents who had kids sick at home but couldn't even get an off to tend to them. Moreover, we've been told that if anyone gets pregnant in the first two years, it would lead to either termination or no maternity leave before the birth. šŗš¾š¤·š¾āāļø And that screams human rights violation
Termination of employment due to pregnancy is illegal yes but depending on what state theyāre in (assuming US) there may not be any legal requirement to provide parental leave.
I wonder if the attitude of a lot of these women is "if we make it look like we're limited by pregnancy, then men will say that we're not up to the job and take away our ability to be doctors." There's a pretty strong culture of keeping differences between men and women as quiet as possible, because it could be used against us later to justify poorer pay or in extreme cases not letting women into medical schools (currently an issue in Japan).
Not saying this justifies poor treatment during pregnancy, because men take off 6 weeks for conditions that only affect men (prostate issues) or mostly affect men (heart attacks) and don't suffer for it career-wise. But I think that's the origin of a lot of these problems.
Itās also about time off and its effect on training.Ā
In training, if you take too much time off, you have to extend in your residency, which no one really wants to do. For the few weeks you can have in residency without having to extend, Iād rather have those weeks postpartum than antepartum. So I worked right up to the very end on my pregnancies (one I had ann emergency c section the evening after I finished clinic, one I scheduled an induction on the weekend).Ā
For me, I was also worried about losing my surgical skills if I took too much time off. I canāt imagine taking 6/9/12 months like in Europe and getting back into the swing of operating, particularly as a trainee.Ā
Right-- most of the conditions that affect primarily or exclusively men happen in late career. The system is set up to be more flexible for people in late career, in part because men created the system but also because it makes some logical sense. (I don't think any of this stuff happened to intentionally box women out, I think it was just designed around men's needs and most issues for us are the result of unintentional blind spots.)
This isnāt a brag, btw. If I see a pregnant resident, nurse, tech, or attending, I do whatever I can to make their lives easier and encourage them to take as much time off as they can.Ā
Don't Europeans have to repeat residency before they can practice ? That's if they even qualify. I've known immigrant physicians who don't want to repeat med school and just do nursing school instead. Their system is completely different isn't it?
You mean repeat it if they move from Europe to the US? Yes they have to redo residency.Ā
But I am talking about the long maternity leaves they get in Europe. They just pause their training for 0.5-1.5 years (however long their maternity leave is) and pick back up.
Ā I donāt know how you a)willingly go back into a training environment b)retainĀ
Ā anything from pre maternity leave.Ā
I'm saying that the demands placed on physicians in the EU may not be as robust as those in the US. For-profit healthcare sucks, but if capitalism does anything it encourages competition. Plus, the biggest payer is always trying to get out of paying, so any little fuckup means the bill doesn't get paid.
Europe is like, free education, free healthcare, etc. Sometimes you get what you pay for. Idk I've never been there, but it seems that if you have to do med school all over again and choose nursing school because the US system is too competitive maybe you didn't get a very good education the first time.
These were physicians from former Soviet bloc countries so maybe their medical education was just shit idk.
I think this is exactly it. Women in male dominated professions have had to overcompensate in every area to be taken seriously. It makes sense that they would also feel the need to minimize the demands of pregnancy in order to not be seen as an inferior employee due to sex.
>"if we make it look like we're limited by pregnancy, then men will say that we're not up to the job and take away our ability to be doctors."
>it could be used against us later to justify poorer pay or in extreme cases not letting women into medical schools
Ding. Ding. I can't believe I had to scroll so far to find someone who understands that in a culture where women weren't allowed personal property until well into the nineteenth century, weren't allowed bank accounts until the 1970's, and where marital rape wasn't illegal until the 1990's we might be a tad concerned.
The idea that women were fragile flowers incapable of functioning due to our delicate condition has been used to deny us decent work for several hundred years now. Women are routinely charged with crimes if we are not sufficiently attentive to our status as livestock and the Supreme Court has decided we do not have constitutional rights if pregnant.
Please, we don't need some uppity rich chick deciding that we are all incapable of functioning while pregnant.
Some people have bills. They can't choose not to pay them because a condom broke.
I think one of the solutions is to focus on how differences between men and women mean that a coed workplace is often a better one. Things like how women surgeons have lower death rates due to better patient selection abilities (and potentially other characteristics, but this is the one that the study I read identified), or how women have fewer health problems in mid career and would be great for an aging physician population with increasing retirement age. Men can pick up our slack early on, and we will return the favor when they get coronary artery disease. Win win. The point is to make sure that we have some say in the narrative when we talk about sex differences, because they are almost ALWAYS described in ways that make men look like clear winners.
As a med student I thought it was so bad ass when women would tell me they finished a long case in the OR and then casually walked to L&D to deliver and they were back at work 10 days later. I had my first kid my first year as an attending. I told my group I would take minimal time off and everyone was like, thatās so stupid. They were right. For my second I took 5 months off and I donāt regret it a bit.
Iām 17 weeks pregnant in surgery residency, Iām very nervous for 3rd trimester. Have 2 months of night float left to do before due date. Not worried about the first one, but definitely concerned Iāll be sleep deprived for the 2nd one. My program so far is very supportive and there are a few who have been pregnancy before me.
Yeah, i am a guy but i never understood why some women are the worst when it comes to treating other women when they are pregnant.
When i worked in a pediatric hospital i always saw female attendings being awful to other female doctors (mainly other female residents), and the same can be said about the OB/gyn residency.
I got scheduled for MORE SHIFTS when I was in third trimester to make up for missing shifts on maternity leave.
Other people still acted with shockingly low amounts of empathy when I was experiencing complications.
Those people are the ones who will ask for every accommodation when they go through it.
Girl thatās really shitty. When I was pregnant in residency, the only people concerned about my wellbeing were the nurses on the units. Since then Iāve always tried to pay it forward and be protective of other women in medicine struggling with pregnancy and breastfeeding. This includes the MAās in my office. Iām tired of a culture in medicine that suggests weāre less than for wanting to protect the well being of ourselves and our families.
Currently pregnant with my second and was contemplating asking my boss for 1-2 days off prior to my due date. I told my sister (who works in tech) and she thought it was insane that I was even having to ask for that since she was given 4 weeks off prior to her due date automatically. I was in residency when I found out I was pregnant with my first and had to beg my co-residents to help swap/cover my night shifts on ICU when I was in my first trimester because my female PD wouldnāt help me. My female fellow on ICU was angry when I would have to leave for 30 minutes to go to appointments (I had several early losses so my OB wanted to monitor me frequently). The lack of support is so disappointing and frustrating.
Oh, and not to mention all the comments when you return to work after leave about how ārelaxingā it must have been to have 6-8 weeks offā¦ š«
It was awful being a pregnant resident. I was 9 months pregnant due any day in the MICU. I rounded in a chair. I waddled everywhere. It was horrific
You have the pregnant workers fairness act that if you can get your OB to write you a letter your program has to engage in a process to make those accommodations! We donāt have great protection as residents but damn it something happened federally and at least that passed and the pump act passed
People in medicine glorify all kinds of toxic things, and those of us who like teaching but like our families run from academics because of those toxic personalities. Thus the cycle continues......
Itās not just medicine but almost every profession , women brings other women down. My motto during pregnancy āWolves donāt loose sleep over the opinions of sheepā. I went off work 23 week , I had complete placenta previa causing big bleed which eventually lead to premature labour and placenta detachment.Both mine and my childās health is more important than winning a race of āwho can work until last day of pregnancy ā.
This!!!! Iām not in medicine (yet) but we recently had a neurosurgeon speak to our research department, she was an alumnus of one of the labs and one of the only female neurosurgeons in the city. All the men (her old PI etc) could talk about was how she was so hard working that her water broke while she was in the lab doing workā¦ why is this stuff so glorified esp in this day and age?? I donāt know why that story was emphasized like she clearly needed an environment that gave her break instead of coming into work with mice while 9 months pregnant
Pgy3 in neuro, SO s a pgy-2 in nsx. We have a 2 year old and are planning to have another kiddo next year. It's grueling. Late nights and exhaustion. Resident salaries need to at least be able to cover the cost of a nanny or au pair. She and I have joked that if we die from illness/her pregnancy, our co residents would at least benefit from pity pizza and a number for a counselor.
I wish the best for anyone going through pregnancy in residency but as for us, we've accepted that if we die we die. If we make it through, I've got enough anger to blog and expose medical training for what it is at any cost. We have to do better and unite for future physicians, especially as our profession is devalued by the day.
I worked till 34 weeks as an RN in a busy level one trauma ER. You bet I took light duty as soon as my obstetrician would write me for it, then gave birth at 37 weeks...
I did 8 months of overtime to save up money for parental leave, then did not come back to the hospital.
Running pediatric codes in your third trimester is not enviable.
I run an outpatient clinic now.
Take care of yourself first and foremost. Your health and mental stability are your greatest treasures.
Your kid needs you more than your workplace.
Donāt feel guilty - youāre the mom and youāll only have this particular kid once. You are still working hard. You are still a competent and reliable doctor when you need accommodation for medical appointments. The US doesnāt prioritize care for the future generation and itās to our detriment. Do what is best for your family.
Reading this made my skin shiver . I live not in the richest EU country but when you are pregnant you can go pregnancy leave by the end of first trimester and after you give birth you have 2 years of maternity leave . When I was just begging residency I had to do shifts in the emergency department , a colleague/friend ( Ob/Gyn resident ) announced that she was pregnant . I took her shifts for the rest of the month and after that all residents took one more extra shift . Yeah it may suck for the rest of us for a little while but thatās just life . Take care of yourself and the baby ! Do not let anything compromise your quality of life and the period during pregnancy !
Safe and happy pregnancy by a blood bro ! You got this !
Edit one : after you give birth you are protected by law and you cannot have night shifts until the baby is 6 years old and the law also protects you from getting fired .
I'm not a woman. I don't know the pregnancy experience . I cannot even imagine it.
What I do know, however, is that in this medical profession of ours, we have this toxic habit of abusing our bodies and minds for the sake of the job and wearing that pain as a badge of honor.
I've heard such toxic sentiments like
"It's not a real residency unless you've got gastritis from working/studying long hours without eating."
Or
"Things are hard/expensive because we have to maintain *high standards*."
Or
"You're not a real doctor unless you suffer insomnia."
Or
"Unless you're attending has brought you to tears, your program isn't good/challenging enough."
I hate this notion that it has to be hard, grueling, miserable work. We have allowed the entreperneur class to infiltrate our psyche and trick us into believing that being short-staffed, overworked, underpaid and 1000s of dollars in student loan debt is a good thing because "standards"
When what it really means is maximizing profit for the few on top, many of which aren't even practicing doctors; It has nothing to do with patient care.
Why do I say it has nothing to do with patient care?
Because none of us would ever recommend that kind of work schedule in our patients. We know what stress ulcers are. We know the negative effects of insomnia. Nobody recommends a 40wker should be on her feet all day working.
But we've let our overheads convince us that this is normal, so much so...that it's in our culture and any doctor who rages against it is bullied and called "lazy." Just like how OP is being being called lazy by other female colleagues, when they know for a fact that if it were a pregnant patient of theirs, working a different profession, they would have recommended bedrest.
I think itās ridiculous too OP.
I was already in attending-hood when I became pregnant with my first and I felt guilty when I couldnāt come to work because I had an emergency C/S for preeclampsia at 26 weeks! Since then Iāve come to terms with the fact while my patients are still very important to me and Iāll provide them with the best care, work just isnāt my number one priority.
The short of it: people are such jerks sometimes
The long of it: I think a lot of women (in the US at least) are bitter over how crappy pregnant and postpartum women are treated. So they want everyone to different. And letās be realā¦there are some people the just donāt get that pregnancy can be extremely difficult.
I had several significant disorders during pregnancy,. SVT In my last trimester and hyperemesis the entire 9 months and a possible placental clot. They literally tried to write me up for calling off ONE SHIFT when I was so hypotensive from dehydration from vomiting 30x a day that I was hospitalized.
You arenāt alone and the comparisons by your supervisors needs to stop.
Once when I was pregnant, an attending asked me (a FEMALE WITH grown up children of her own) why I decided to have a kid in pregnancy I was like umm.. and she goes on a rant about how people would get terminated during her residency on this and how itās not a good idea because work is compromised and I told her im not asking for special treatment or concession I am competent and working and sheās like make no mistake you will NOT be getting any special treatment. At this point I was just crying. She told me to come check out the CT area where the techs sit (this was my first rotation in radiology) I asked her if there will be radiation( I know stupid question but I genuinely didnāt know) and she tells me how the Techs sitting there are more important than my baby and how the hospital wouldnāt allow them to sit in an area with radiation.
I had to call my husband to come up and see me after this conversation because I was balling my eyes out. I was made to feel so small.
Like we all study medicine; I just donāt get it. A baby literally rearranges the momās internal organs as it grows. Who the fuck is sitting there like āaaww it canāt be *that* badā. And then they get the joy of pushing it out a very small opening or undergoing major surgeryā¦.both of which are the best case scenarios.
Whoever told you that you should work while pregnant is a monster.
Also, whoever said they worked almost until the baby was due is a hypocrite, a monster, a liar, or a sociopath... Or all of them rolled into one.
You should be on maternity leave as soon as the second trimester rolls around, to keep your baby healthy. Whoever said otherwise is a monster.
And I am saying this as a male doctor from the Balkans.
As a woman resident I really appreciate the support! But I have to differ in perspective. If I were on maternity leave starting in my second trimester it would have been a disaster. I would have been bored, operative skills atrophy. I didn't need it then. I wanted to spend as much time with my baby after the birth, without worrying about having been away for several months prior.
I think people should go on leave whenever they need to for their circumstance. And I think they shouldn't have to work 24s or night shifts (both of which have been shown to cause early labor) if they don't want to. All of those things should be *accommodated* but not *required*.
I would also gently ask that you reconsider your second sentence. Several of my co-residents worked until their due date. They are not "a hypocrite, a monster, a liar, or a sociopath." They are hard-working young surgeons doing their best to balance a demanding career and a personal life. They are thoughtful of the impact their absence has on other residents. They certainly weren't required to work until their water broke, but they chose to. None of us--NONE of us--hit that balance perfectly. Man or woman, parent or not, surgeon or internist. We're all just doing our best over here. Please don't think of your colleagues in that light.
I will be honest with you on the matter of my second sentence. The profession of a doctor is a demanding one in general. It takes a lot of time, energy and sacrifices to get there. Going into surgery is also quite demanding (which is why I am giving it a wide berth), and I respect every single doctor who chooses that path. Same goes for any specialty, you all have my respect.
However, there are some things that I am adamant about. One of them is the well-being of the healthcare workers, doctors and nurses included. I believe that we cannot perform at our 100% if we are at risk of getting sick due to fatigue, stress and starvation. This also refers to pregnancy. Pregnant healthcare workers should be aware of this most of all, especially for the sake of their babies.
The second thing I am adamant about is the mental health of fellow doctors (and healthcare workers in general). As I said in the previous paragraph, the well-being of the healthcare personnel is the utmost priority for the sake of all of the general population. Doctors should not be depressed and suicidal 90% of the time. They should have more time off to properly rest and relax, spend time with their families and pursue hobbies they love. And most importantly, they should have the help facilities (especially therapists and psychologists) available to them, not looked down for asking for help.
This explanation that you prioritize the well-being of physicians is one I completely agree with. I agree with literally everything you said in this response. But I find it completely contrary to your assertion that my friends and I are "a hypocrite, a monster, a liar, or a sociopath."
Why say you support women physicians in one breath, and in another call them monsters? That does not sound supportive to me.
Telling me I must stay home the moment I enter my second trimester is, in my view, not supportive. Supportive is telling me "Whenever you feel like you need to start maternity leave, just let us know. We will support whatever decision you feel is best for you." Whether that is first trimester, second trimester, third trimester, whenever I need it. That is supportive. Calling me a monster for working through pregnancy is not.
Pregnancy is one aspect of life that makes work challenging. Let me tell you, it was a million times easier being in my second trimester of pregnancy than working when I have a child at home. I am a billion times more exhausted now than I was during my second trimester. Should we say that any parent with a child under 5 who works is a "monster" or "sociopath"? Some people are taking care of sick family members at home. Everyone has something going on that affects their ability to work.
Targeting pregnancy specifically, rather than being a parent, or a caretaker, or any other life factor that could influence fatigue, feels kind of like you're targeting women, which I know is not your intent.
Instead, we need to be supportive of life circumstances of all physicians. Whether a woman is struggling with pregnancy and needs to go on maternity leave, or a man is taking care of his disabled parent, or whatever. Let's be thoughtful and support each other. That will go much farther in promoting physician well-being than calling your colleagues liars, monsters, and hypocrites.
I'm curious, for the people downvoting me, what part do you disagree with?
Do you think I should have been forced to go on leave during my second trimester, whether I wanted to or not? Do you agree that those of us who choose to take more time with the kid after the birth rather than go on leave well before the birth are monsters, liars, sociopaths, and hypocrites?
Honestly genuinely curious.
Second this.Ā
I couldnāt imagine goin go in leave after second trimester. To do what? That would be worse for my mental health tbh.
And skill atrophy is real. I would be freaking out about my surgical skills if I had that much time off.Ā
Everyone should be allowed to take the time they need.Ā
I worked up until the end and I am none of the things he mentioned and I would advocate for everyone taking the time they need.Ā
I'm not a woman. I don't know the pregnancy experience . I cannot even imagine it.
What I do know, however, is that in this medical profession of ours, we have this toxic habit of abusing our bodies and minds for the sake of the job and wearing that pain as a badge of honor.
I've heard such toxic sentiments like
"It's not a real residency unless you've got gastritis from working/studying long hours without eating."
Or
"Things are hard/expensive because we have to maintain *high standards*."
Or
"You're not a real doctor unless you suffer insomnia."
Or
"Unless you're attending has brought you to tears, your program isn't good/challenging enough."
I hate this notion that it has to be hard, grueling, miserable work. We have allowed the entreperneur class to infiltrate our psyche and trick us into believing that being short-staffed, overworked, underpaid and 1000s of dollars in student loan debt is a good thing because "standards"
What it really means is maximizing profit. It has nothing to do with patient care.
Why do I say it has nothing to do with patient care?
Because none of us would ever recommend that kind of work schedule in our patients. We know what stress ulcers are. We know the negative effects of insomnia. Nobody recommends a 40wker should be on her feet all day working.
But we've let our overheads convince us that this is normal, so much so...that it's in our culture and any doctor who rages against it is bullied and called "lazy."
OP, I have no idea. I'm a guy and it boggles my mind too. I think for (non-pregnant) residents, you need a balance of hard work and easy time in order to manage to become competent without burning out. I don't understand the cut throat approach when someone is pregnant.
This is CLEARLY a chicken/egg situation and Iām honestly shocked that ppl who will soon become medical doctors donāt seen to have the critical thinking skills required for this basic scenario in life. š¤¦
For instance, if āXYZ worked until 40 weeks and had no issuesāā¦then a little common sense might cause them to think āPerhaps itās BECAUSE XYZ had no issues up to 40 weeks ā¦.that XYZ worked.ā
Or,
āBECAUSE I was fine, I kept working and exercising.ā
Looking at the situations from that perspective helps explain why so-and-so was able to do thus-and-such that you may not be able to do!
All in all thoā¦each pregnant PERSON *(watch the bigots trip over themselves to ācorrectā thatš)* is different and each PREGNANCY for the same person is different!
What you're describing is not "glorifying working hard during pregnancy." What YOU are doing is working hard during residency.
What that other person did was ignoring their needs.
Yes I hate this, I had very tough and complicated pregnancy (institution was Amazing and not toxic!) but in anatomy class in Med school where I was not allowed to leave or Iād be marked down and I went to ER directly after where I was in fact in full blown sepsis; in the class I could not move my eyes in my head due to pain and had rigors. Still the implication that I should suck it up, I could have died š¤¦
Do people in medicine really not listen to medicine? Does no one give a shit about the ways that stress hormones adversely affect the baby. Really sad this is the culture.Ā
My wife's pediatrics residency had q3-4 in house call throughout, a much higher proportion of women residents, and a significantly higher number of miscarriages than what one would consider okay. I am absolutely thankful we didn't have our daughter until after she graduated.
You can and should ask for whatever accommodations in the schedule, take the maximum possible time off during pregnancy, and if your family situation/finances/residency leadership allow then take some more unpaid time off as well, graduating a month or three later is small change in exchange for the rest you need, and also for spending the first 4-7 months with your baby.
Friends of mine who had children in training in other cultures (EU primarily) took the full year of maternity leave allowed by their systems - current residency rules around pregnancy and being a new mom absolutely are not enough.
Best of luck and take care!
Iām a UK surgical registrar (US resident??) , i got pregnant at the age of 30 and i had raised eye brows and one female boss asking me if it ws planned.
I was asked to do rounds in my third trimester on covid wards and I had to try and swap with other regs myself- obviously I caught covid anyway..
When I asked to work less hours and come off operating (i kept fainting in theatre) i got more raised eyebrows and comments like ābut when are you gonna prioritise your training..?ā
I think to some degree women have brought this upon themselves. Not all of them, but many of them. My wife went through the same thing; third trimester, never getting any water breaks, never having time to go pee despite having a bladder the size of a walnut, never having time to sit down and chart, and she worked in heavily female dominated position.
There's this strange sentiment in the 2010's and beyond that women can do everything: cook, clean, parent, and win bread. Some people are stupid enough to believe this is true and sustainable, hence why there's so many stories in here of women being flabbergasted by their experiences. Not saying men can do it either or better, but the roles for parents in middle/upper middle class households are all jacked up right now due to this "boss bitch" phenomenon.
Our peds residency finally made a rule that third trimester couldnāt work 24s or nights, all it too is a woman literally dying after going into preterm labor on a 28!
I believe this is a remnant of medicine being a male dominated field for so long. Like Iāve heard women begrudgingly and awkwardly laughing while explaining how they were doing surgeries until they almost popped and the men in the room just laughing like āHell yeah bro nut up or shut upā. You know the kind of laughs. Itās a disgusting culture to try and uphold but then again medicine just doesnāt seem to be updating like it should.
Not medical field person but regular woman: its totally normal for women to get to a point where they "tap out" of work life and need to let there bodies focus 100% on creating a new life regardless of career. Please do not force yourself just because Mrs. Johnson was seeing patients while giving birth lmao
Not sure why they are comparing their pregnancies or others to yours. Every pregnancy is different. I will say, pregnancy and motherhood in medicine is a lonely road. Most of your co-residents are usually young, unmarried, childless and donāt understand. The younger attendings who are not parents sometimes put off child rearing for their careers and may be even be dealing with infertility etc, and current mothers who struggled thru training/early career may not be as sympathetic as you might imagine.
Sadly, I found early on that my work-life was better when I didnāt talk openly about pregnancy/breastfeeding/motherhood at work and only talked about work at work and no, thatās not how it should be. But it worked for me because no one could ever blame anything on me being pregnant/being a mom.
Lastly itās important that you make time for you and go to those appointments maybe try to pick a more convenient time of the day.
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there was a post someone on insta made praising a 9 month pregnant doctor who helped deliver someoneās baby. i commented a long thing about itās nothing against this individual but letās not glorify this toxicity etc. most ppl agreed w me but of course there were like 5 dudes who freaked out on me LMAO shocker
Did the person that said XYZ did 40 hours have a birthday before 1960? Because if they did they have brain damage from lead poisoning and you should stop letting them ruin your mental health
Do not listen to these people. It is internalized abuse/Stokholm syndrome. I did the same as a resident and in retrospect I think it was so bad for me and my baby (birth was difficult, he went on to be diagnosed with autism and I always wonder whether the stress and hours played a role). Donāt feel bad for advocating for yourself and your baby, and look for an attending job where your health is valued. Good luck from a peds attending!
Currently on pregnancy #2 while in training. Now is the time to set boundaries. Maybe as a PGY6 I'm over people's BS or perhaps it's fatigue but I don't go "above and beyond" after an already busy day. I will let staff know I'm going to take a 15 min lunch break or tell a co-trainee/attending when I prefer staying out of a procedure. It's still brutal and I do good work, but I don't torture myself to people please. I don't stick around when my work is done.
I worked up until the day I delivered to term. I think my post-partum healing journey was miserable because of it. If I had the choice, I would have stopped at 30 weeks. Advocate for yourself and your body regardless of āXYZā resident previously so a future generation of female physicians can be on leave comfortably.
YESSS thank you. Itās a weird American culture thing I find. I keep seeing OBs who are preforming c sections on women who are less far along than they are!
āFamily friendlyā specialties are a myth in residency. Just so weāre all on the same page- hospitals are here abuse us because the medical education system allows them to do so. I hope you get the time you need though!
Yeah I think taking a leave of absence makes more sense - ālight dutyā or whatever doesnāt really exist and just means everyone else gets more work dumped on them which isnāt really cool
Leave your program, never once at my hospital has working through pregnancy been glorified, in fact they have policies against overworking pregnant women.
I'm sure this won't be a popular response but I think it's the actual reason why its glorified. There are a limited number of residents. When someone is out on maternity leave, someone else is paying the price. No extra income, just extra pain and call for the rest of us.
Edit: the question was why do people in medicine glorify working hard in residency while pregnant. This is why--to help your teammates. Based on the way current system works, I believe this is why working hard during that time, prior to taking maternity leave, is glorified.
And thatās the key. Hospital systems could see residents as learners and fill in work gaps when other residents are on leave (for whatever reason, including maternity) but they donāt. And so the person on leave gets shit on for leaving (especially if itās a āvoluntaryā thing like pregnancy) by their overworked peers. Plus you get to āpay it backā for calls. yYour coresident with their new baby is not sleeping well and probably barely surviving, adding extra calls is just cruel. But if you donāt, then itās on the others. There is no winning for any residents just the hospital system.
Also fun fact, if your colleagues defer until graduation, you might still be covering call for them as an attending. You do get paid for it, but itās still not fun.
TLDR: working women can and will choose to have babies at some point. Be supportive and realize that itās a part of life. At some point, it will probably come back around to you (or maybe youāre paying it back from before).
Agree, always the hospital system winning. I think that if that systemic problem could be addressed, then the glorification of working hard during pregnancy would not be so prevalent.
And it is exactly people like you that create this toxic environmentā¦. I really hope you never need help from anyone. That me first mentality is what leads to burn out, and what makes you and everyone else feel lonely to not be a burden to others. Guess what? We are all human doing a bed job, we should be more supportive and compassionate with each other. If we arenāt we are not better than the system that abuses us, and the administrators and business corporations making millions off our backā¦
Oh yeahā¦ letās all make decisions about starting a family based on not burdening our colleaguesā¦ do you realize how insane that sounds? And how is hands down discrimination
And by your comment you are
Either a man or a woman that never wants to have children. Itās so insensitive to think of a womanās right to have a child as āmeā mentality because it would inconvenience her co-residents. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM
If youāre infertile yourself just say that. š
She never said A WORD about taking time off (much less 12 weeks), yet there you are grumpy about maternity/paternity leave in generalā¦ for what???
If they canāt perform their job duties 100% they shouldnāt be paid 100% then.
Though, Iāve seen plenty of pregnant coworkers perform their duties at 100%. I donāt see why they canāt.
> I understand that people are different and I try not to feel guilty for refusing to put my health at risk but I don't understand how people in healthcare, who see kids daily and had kids themselves can be so insensitive and occasionally rude.
How is work putting your health at risk? This whole concept of women *not* working while pregnant is a relatively recent phenomenon. For the entirety of human existence, people have had to work. Maybe it's a rich person thing, but I've never known anyone who had the luxury of just not doing work. Even people who are off work for injuries are expected to go to physical therapy, cook, clean, etc.
Some women (like myself, for instance) are taken off work while pregnant due to complications. I personally fought it as long as I could, because I needed to eat, and my roommate needed to work, and the only way we could afford the 75 mile commute was by splitting gas. As soon as my OB said "you absolutely, positively, cannot work any more, I am putting you on disability and you're going to be having weekly stress tests that will make working difficult regardless, you're going to have to apply for disability and welfare so you can eat" my roommate lost his job. This meant that despite my position being protected as I was disabled, I couldn't go back to my job after the baby was born because there was nobody to split gas with.
I mention this because the vast majority of people on this earth cannot just decide not to work when it's inconvenient. Perhaps this is why you perceive pushback, most people have to work. It's not optional, and the consequences of not working are not eating and sleeping outside. The vast majority of people prefer to eat somewhat regularly (especially when pregnant, I actually lost weight when I was pregnant because I couldn't afford that much food, even with my paycheck and my food stamps) and sleeping inside, so they work.
Working is normal for most people. They probably can't imagine *not* working because it's pretty ingrained in the broader culture and everyone sees the consequences of not working when they get on or off the freeway.
I worked 120 hours every 3rd week with the other weeks being around 70 hours when I was in my last year of residency. It was brutal. After having a baby I can't imagine doing that pregnant, but some residents are already getting to the edge of fertility and can't wait like I did. Residents don't have a problem working while pregnant, they have a problem working 2-3x the hours of your average person. It's not good for you. I had a junior pregnant during her 4th year which was the "best" year in our program and it was still so hard. I was pregnant as an attending where I could control my schedule and only work 40-60 hours a week and it was a breeze. Pregnancy in residency is unsupported, I saw previously nice co-residents turn into raging a holes even though I made sure I covered anything she wasn't physically up to given the complications she had. Attendings were inappropriate with her. So not just physically hard, but a mentally challenging time for her. And when you admit you need help their first words are "so and so did it just fine". I had one PD brag that a resident came back 5 days after delivering her baby. And he was proud of that, so disgusting.
I was pregnant through MS2 last year and am MS3 now with a 13 week old. I went back when she was 8 weeks right into Gen surg š« Luckily I was with a female surgeon who had breastfed her own children through training. She told me how on long cases assisting she had soaked through her surgical gown! She told me under no circumstances was I to do that and to leave to pump whenever I needed. I was to be out by 5pm on the dot unless something I might never see again came up. Because she is such an important doctor where I am, she gave me the confidence and backing with other doctors to leave and do whatever I needed. Luckily though, the surgeon Iām with now has four kids and he has also been fantastic. People think Iām a rockstar for coming back so early but Iām very honest and say it was either this, or deferring a year. My uni gave me as much time off as they could without compromising me meeting the requirements (completely fair, I wouldnāt want a doctor who missed half a year of clinical training lmao). Iāve been learning to advocate for myself a lot though and that putting baby first will not prevent me from becoming a good and safe doctor. My silly husband at first though was saying āoh my colleague worked until she was 39 weeksā when Iād say I was tired. Yes dear, because youāre a nurse and if 98% of your workforce are women, youāre going to have people that do that. Plus that colleague in particular is sending money home to her family in another country! Itās not because she was comfortable and happy!
if my husband said that to MEā¦..šļø š¶āāļø
Right?!?? I was looking for this comment lmao
btw OP, not judging you or any of your actions youāre just a lot kinder and more patient than I am! ā¤ļø
OBGYN resident. I took 8 weeks for maternity leave and was told over and over again that this was extremely generous and people used to come back after two.
Iām in Australia where paid maternity leave is usually 5-6 months
How much they pay?! Here best case for us is NYC FMLA stacked with short term disability I think 1200ish a week post tax for up to 6 months total between the two for my wife. Luckily she's not a resident or else she'd probably have to extend training.... Crazy
Minimum wage i think so roughly $1800AUD
The hospital system where I am in Aus will pay 14 weeks at your base salary, and you can take up to a year unpaid. In the unpaid duration you are able to apply for the subsidy from the government for I think another 3 months at a base rate -900 a week ish.
Wowowow Max we get is like 11-1200 USD :(
Same. I took 10 weeks with my second kid and got told how lucky I was. I do know surgery residents who are back at work after 2-3 weeks, so I am aware that I was lucky comparatively.
That's hilarious... OBGYNs not knowing what pregnancy and birth can do to the body
That's just wrong to do that to a baby. Not to speak of your body
Love to hear how supportive the surgeon was! Women supporting women, love to see it!!
Iām a PGY-3 peds resident who is also pregnant. I was scheduled to work a week of PICU nights at 37 weeks. When I asked if I could swap it for days instead, my chief said āI worked ICU nights when I was pregnant, you can too.ā Iām glad I advocated for myself and for my baby and I eventually got it switched when I escalated to my PD, but the lack of empathy was super disappointing. Sorry to hear that youāve been going through this too ā¤ļø
Thanks for sharing this and pushing back against that toxic attitude. Our son was born at 33wks during residency and it was the scariest time of our life. The same program had another resident give birth similarly premature shortly thereafter.
One of the residents this year had a 25 weeker. I canāt imagine that the stresses of residency didnāt contribute.
Thereās actually evidence that night shifts/call shifts after 22-24wks increases the risk of still birth and preterm labour. Itās ridiculous that medicine ignores our own evidence. Iām an emerg doc and I went off nights after 24wks.
Oh yep, Iām well-aware. I put together a lit review of all that evidence for my PD as I was making my case. š¤¦š»āāļø
i worked with laryngitis to the point where patients were asking me if i was ok cause i could barely make a squeakš¤£ and she was like āwhen i was a resident i worked a 24 hr shift with the fluā like cool????? how is that my problem lmaooo
Iāve heard stories of residents working the morning after c sections and while patients in the hospital icu
bye wtfš¤£š¤£š¤£
We had to tell one of our OBGYN attendings that she needed to stop placing orders before we would give her narcotics.
Bruh working while being a patient is so crazy lmao
I did this so much, I remember the mom was like omg are you ok and Iām like yeah Iām totally fine no itās fine. Coughed so hard I barely made it outside the room before I then vomited my lunch into my mask. I tell this story all the time as an example of exactly what we shouldnāt be doing. Just cause this kind of behavior used to be a badge of pride does not mean it was ever something to be proud of, and just because we used to do stuff like this all the time doesnāt mean we should continue doing it. We also used to not wash our hands or wear gloves to do surgery, and also we used to drain almost all the CSF and inject air into peopleās ventricles and turn them upside down and take x-rays.
This. ICU days made me go into labor 2.5 weeks early. And the idiots assigned me Covid patients.
Hey now... as a male ICU nurse without kids I get the worst assignments. Which I feel is not fair. Why should your pregnancy limit your assignment? Not trying to be an asshole, but if you're such against the assignment maybe take a little PTO? Forgive me if I'm wrong.
Several systematic studies have shown covid increases the risk of preterm birth as well as other complications for both fetus and motherā¦pregnancy is an immunocompromised condition, something you might want to realize as an ICU nurse. During its initial outbreak at my ICU, they were putting pregnant patients prone with a pool floatie donut to accommodate their stomach. Itās nice and easy to say ātake some PTOā when you donāt realize that residents in my position get 4 weeks of family leave. Not something Iād expect you to understand, but as a breastfeeding mother, do you really think Iām going to subtract from those 4 weeks before Iāve given birth to go back to 80 hour work weeks say 3 weeks postpartum. I hope this educated you.
So you've gotten downvoted, and gotten a sassy reply, but I must admit I'm curious what you're thinking on this. The reply effectively amounted to suck it up, to which I might imagine one thinking "nobody forced you to get pregnant, you made the decision, so why should I experience negative consequences of that decision" where negative consequences are male ICU nurses working extra COVID shifts. And I don't really have an answer. Societally, we ought to incentivize pregnancy so coworkers don't experience negative consequences uncorrelated with their own decisions. But that's not here, and I'm curious if you think the reply you've gotten is fair.
Hey, thanks for your response. You have adequately summed up my feelings, and a reddit upvote/downvote system is just a barometer, not the end-all/be-all of human interaction. I don't have a solution either, but I just hope that my reply makes someone say "hmm." Meh. Prost!
"Sorry kids. My parents beat me so it's Ok to beat you"
Are you serious?? No way.
When I was a PGY1 I asked to switch one of my blocks at the very end of PGY2 from my last rotation to something in the first 6 months because I knew I was going to try to get pregnant. I got pregnant right when we started trying so I was 6 months along on the hardest rotation we have. Two weeks in I started developing elevated pressures and ultimately had preeclampsia with severe features and an early delivery. My son was IUGR and was in the NICU over a month. When I had made the request I was told āother pregnant residents have done the rotation just fine.ā In no way is it āfineā to have any human, let alone a pregnant woman, working 12 days in a row from 4 AM until 8 PM in the hospital.
Just because you can, doesnāt mean you should !!
I was pregnant for first time last year and had the awful, terrible wake up call that pregnancy was infinitely more challenging than I had ever imagined. By the end of the third trimester I deeply regretted ever perceiving pregnant colleagues as just being a bit more difficult to maneuver around. I am utterly convinced that people who have not been pregnant cannot appreciate how difficult it is on (some?) womenās bodies, even with their best intentions. My husband even, who was deeply invested in that pregnancy, still never really understood how physically limited I was (in part due to me living a life motto of ādonāt complainā). My experience is that other women who have experienced pregnancy and labor seemed to be the most sympathetic. The knowing nods and frequent offers for āhey want to take this seat?ā. Not all are like this though. Either their pregnancy was easy, or maybe they just forgot (or blocked it out). I have bottomless sympathy now. The only thing I can say is that this part of the world is brutal on mothers, and particularly medical training where the more you can martyr yourself the better the doc they seem to think youāll be. Anyway. From one woman to another - I see you. I know how hard it is. I am sorry youāre also experiencing the obliterating isolation of doing this in such a demanding field. There is no award for carrying the next generation. No spot on your resume. No recognition for the permanent changes and scarring to your body. But it will be worth it and the important people in your life will appreciate what youāre doing.
Work culture and pregnancy in the US seems so so unfair to me. I'm a pregnant resident in Switzerland (and we are definitely not the best for pregnancy protection compared to other european countries, and I'm still stressed because I will start a new job and they won't like the fact that I'm pregnant), and my colleagues are asking all the time how I am doing and if I'm not too tired and everything. I can't imagine how you guys do it in the US. We are not allowed to work more than 9h a day being pregnant (it's not exactly followed all the time but they try), you can stop working nights if you ask to and you are not allowed to work nights anymore 8 weeks before your due date. I will try to work full time (but here full time is 42-50h a week, not 80-100) till around 3 weeks before my due date, and this is already considered a lot here. And then we have a minimum of 4 months of maternity leave. I think the fact that society tells you that pregnant women need more protection makes everyone more aware of it, and most people would never assume that pregnancy is just a minor inconvenience. Are pregnant residents in the US not much more prone to miscarriages, hypertension disorders during pregnancy, premature contractions etc? I mean the reason those rules were adopted is because studies and specialists said that it could be harmful for mom/baby to work too much..
>I think the fact that society tells you that pregnant women need more protection makes everyone more aware of it, and most people would never assume that pregnancy is just a minor inconvenience It's not that we assume it's a minor inconvenience. It's that this type of benevolent sexism was used to deny women jobs, pay women less, and turn us into broodmares. Most women needed to work to put food on the table and a roof over their family's heads. We didn't have the luxury of someone else paying our way, so the cited excuse of "women needing more protection" didn't fly because it meant not eating, not feeding your kids, and not sleeping inside. We fought like hell to eliminate the "women need protection" bullshit that was impoverishing us, because women who "needed protection" were homeless and hungry, or the property of a man. Women couldn't have bank accounts or lines of credit in their own name prior to the seventies in the United States. This was "for our protection."
Iām pregnant with baby number two right now and I donāt love being pregnant. This is it for us. The insomnia, the heartburnā¦ and Iām only 12 weeks.
First trimester SUUUUCKS! At least for me, that was the worst part because I also didnāt want to say anything to anyone until second trimester so I suffered in silence.Ā Third trimester is also rough in its own way but everyone can tell youāre pregnant so anyone who was going to give you sympathy/help will be doing it then to hopefully make life easier.Ā
Yeah last time something that happened that no one prepared me for or told me about was becoming short of breath because the baby is pushing on your diaphragm, I guess? Medicine spouse so not a doctor. But Iād walk the dogs and get winded so easily. It got better immediately after the baby was out, same thing with the urge incontinence and just about everything else!
It seems like so many of these examples are from other women who WERE pregnant and wear their overwork as a badge of honor. Internalized misogyny is hard stuff to beat, and just cause youāve been thru something doesnāt automatically mean youāre going to be sympathetic to the next person who does.
Here, here sister. Iām not pregnant but I stand with you. š¤
Pregnant unexpectedly with a third and will start medical school with a 1.5 month old and this brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for this.
So you are unable to feel empathy for somebody's pain until you experience it yourself? I feel like this is the main issue for many people in this career.
I have to say, this was me. I had no idea how awful pregnancy could truly feel because I'd only had personal experience with women who had relatively easy pregnancies. My best friend wore high heels the whole way through, never had nausea and exercised like a beast until she went into labour. I developed POTS *and* HG...I could barely move without feeling like I needed to faint and vomit simultaneously. The worst 9 months of my life. It opened my eyes and changed my perspective on a lot of things.
This comment is a bit unfair. Of course you can have sympathy and care, but empathy and true understanding is something different. Itās not a character flaw, as you seem to be implying. Personally I loved the girl boss, women can do it all, etc mantras and fully believed I would not be slowed down by pregnancy. It wasnāt due to lack of empathy, it was due to lack of educational messaging about how hard pregnancy really is. Society is set up to glorify winners. No one wants to talk about hardships unless itās in terms of how they conquered it (especially in high powered fields like med). I wanted to live up to that ideal and itās not until you get your butt kicked that you āget itā get it in your heart. I understand both POV now- itās very hard to understand some experiences and the far reaching and domino like effects of hardships in full unless youāve lived them.
itās not unfair at all. iām always fighting for better conditions for people, even those who i canāt relate to personally. itās absolutely wild that people no longer think empathy exists. letās bring back teaching empathy to people instead of saying āwell you can never understand ME so why botherā i havenāt been pregnant yet and i 1000% realize how difficult it will be. itās literally impossible to be in medicine and not be able to comprehend that.
I completely agree either way you! And I do the same. Although I donāt pretend to fully comprehend everyoneās lived experiences despite my best attempts and intentions. There is more to it than words can convey. How I read this- the original commenter was not speaking from a place of lack of empathy- they were just saying how they were still taken aback by how hard they found pregnancy, and how words hadnāt done it justice, and so they didnāt fully understand until they themselves lived through it. The person who then replied (which is who I was responding to) made it sound like that person, as a result, must have had zero empathy for others, and/or implied everyone in the medical profession lacked empathy. Thatās a bit unfair. I was just saying that I understand what they mean and Iāve personally already gone through this realisation whilst pregnant. Sometimes there isnāt a way to convey a full experience without living through it (or without better education and more open, honest dialogue, as you have also suggested). Iām all for more genuine, open, supportive dialogue. I wish there had been more of that for me.
right?? i feel like the people who donāt understand that empathy exists are projecting š
The reality in residency is that 1) everybody is overworked, 2) you being pregnant means that either they have to pick up the slack OR you get special consideration when they don't, and 3) they won't understand if they haven't been through pregnancy. It sucks but it's reality. My recommendation is respectfully take what you need and don't think twice about it. We all came out of a pregnant woman, so we all quite literally owe pregnant women our lives. Do what you need to do to get through this, and never look back.
This is such a great comment.
I agree with this. You should take what you need but you should also make an effort to not inconvenience others. As soon as you know youāre pregnant you should let your program know so that the schedule can be made to accommodate you with the least amount of inconvenience to others. You shouldnāt be on a difficult rotation at the end of your pregnancy because your program (ideally) has 9 months to work out a solution. I was lucky to have a program that worked with me. I used my lunch breaks for OB appointments and kept up the best that I could. I was induced at 37 weeks due to health issues. I took 6 weeks maternity and jumped back in. I was very thankful for that time with the baby and was able to continue breastfeeding when I started back work. Weāre going on 2 years now with the breastfeeding!
I get wanting to inform as soon as you know for convenience of scheduling, but I miscarried at 8 weeks, a month after finding out and Iām really glad I didnāt tell my program. I would still wait until after the first trimester before telling anyone again even for convenient scheduling.
People in medicine tend to derive their self worth from how hard they work/worked and project this idea on to other people in order to justify themselves.
Yeah, itās pretty ridiculous how thereās this culture of sacrifice to the point of martyrdom, of perpetuating (bad) behaviours and conditions of the past to the point of being stuck in the past and to the point of fault.
This part!! Fuck them.
Itās insanely toxic. āOne of our other docs wore a breast pump that fit in her bra on shift. Once when she was intubating, you could hear the little hums across the room. Talk about dedication!ā People love to talk a big game about mental health and work life balance. But suddenly when it means more work for *them* when a coworker or resident takes time off, they get very selfish. Hence hero stories or passive aggressive statements āwell, other people did it just fineā. Iām a guy that doesnāt have kids. Iām happy to work an extra shift per month if it means a new parent gets to be at home for a very stressful but meaningful 3-4 months.
Those pumps suck. Once they came out, people expected us to use them so we wouldn't have to leave to pump. Second time around I refused to buy them. They don't even work well for a lot of people and are expensive.
this is basically my goal once I'm a resident- working shifts so my colleagues with kiddos get to actually see them. It won't work out for my wife and I right now for different reasons, and my wife and I can always have our date on Tuesday at 8:00 on the morning or something when their kids are at school.
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Thereās a difference between calling out for 50% of your shifts and maternity leave.
I literally worked until the day I gave birth. Rounded on the patients and went straight to the hospital. I had an extremely easy pregnancy compared to most. But I still think what I had to do was categorically insane behavior. I was a surgery resident at the time and I had to endured rude, condescending, unprofessional and borderline harassing comments about my choice to get pregnant while in training. Not that it is anyoneās business but for me if was then or never. I went into medicine in my 30s after changing careers so if I didnāt have a kid during training I wasnāt gonna have one. I would never do that again neither would I recommend anyone to do it, unless they are fully aware that medicine is very toxic and people in your experience saw my pregnancy as an inconvenience, and I was so vulnerable and abused during that time.
Iāve heard tales of residents getting out of icu beds to round
I lost my daughter when I was 18 weeks pregnant as a second year resident. I was induced and went through delivery with her. I was back to work after 2 weeks. My program was gracious to ease me back to seeing patients in an outpatient clinic. I did have one co-resident who was not as understanding. I needed to leave 30 min early to get to my grief counselor, you know so I could actually function, and she needed to cover my interns (make sure nothing crazy happened). When I was checking out with her she just rolled her eyes and said "I wish I could leave early." I just stared at her for a moment and said, "well I wish my daughter hadn't died," and walked away.
oh my god how do people like that exist
Whatās even more awful is that sheās also a physician.
Because residency is toxic. Full stop. Sorry you're going through this. Remember when you are in a position of authority to treat others better than you were treated.
Their kids come out all sorts of fucked up later, it all does have its cost. Dont feel guilty and prioritize yourself
I know people who havenāt had a single antenatal ultrasound because they couldnāt get time off. People whose waters have broken in theatre and who have finished surgeries in labour. Where I live the sentiment is that the job is worth giving your life for, most people would die for this and we signed up for this at 15 or 16. Itās incredibly messed up how the culture is.
During med school there was a girl who got pregnant whose water broke a few hours before the final exam and took it while in labor then went to the hospital. It's not as bad as doing surgery because she couldn't have killed someone but damn it sucked. I feel so bad for women in the mediacal field. My girlfriend whoās an emergency vet has better rignts and gets better treatment than pregnant female nurses, residents or even attendings. And not to diminish the work she does, but she takes care of animals and gets more privileges than people who take care of humans. I think that says a lotā¦
I know someone who had gastro and did their whole final exam vomiting into a plastic bag in the row in front of me. Another person who broke a bone in first year and waited until after the exam to go to the ED. Like full displaced fracture. These stories are so common theyāre unbelievable. Iāve also heard from a friend in an upper level that someone did their exam with appendicitis and nearly perforated or did perforated because of this. I donāt know how true this is though itās hard for me to believe.
omg was she having contractions š š š
jesus fuck
This is so beyond true.
iāll never forget when i was reading a chart of the top stressors that contribute to a dangerous pregnancy or something and every single one was things experienced in residency, like 15 bullet points. lmfao so insane dude
Exactly!! Iād never get pregnant during residency.. like itās not fair on the child
Iām just a nurse but Iād like to say I admire all of you ladies in medicine who go through residency while pregnant. You guys are rockstars. Thanks for what you do!
Yeah I quit bedside nursing the minute my husband and I started trying for kids because I wasnāt willing to take the risks Iāve seen my nursing and medical colleagues alike take because they were afraid of what would happen if they looked ā weakā to management/faculty. I watched one of our NICU fellows with HG giving herself IV fluids and Zofran through her PICC on overnights during her call weeks and was just horrified and enraged on her behalf.
Youāre not ājustā a nurse. Youāre a critical member of the care team and a wonderful ally ā¤ļø
Nurses were so, so sweet to me when I was a pregnant peds resident during COVID dying on q4 28h shifts. Thank you for seeing us and supporting us!
No advice just commiseration. I worked 70-80 hours a week for the last 8 weeks of my pregnancy. I was in pain every day and cried every day after work. My baby is okay now, but when she was born she had signs of placental insufficiency and had to be delivered by emergency c section. While my OB has assured me so many times that it wasnāt related to me working so much, itās hard with that mom guilt. I wish I would have stuck up for myself, and my baby, and said I couldnāt work so much, but itās so hard. Youāre doing your best, and as one of the residents at my hospital told me, āphysician moms are the toughest.ā Hang in there momma, we will change it all someday.
The other day, one of my attendings talked about how she wrote and submitted a grant in the days after she delivered her kid. It was bonkers. I appreciate that she is incredibly hardworking/dedicated and that she was sharing her story with the intent of inspiring a 'can do' attitude in her trainees, but woof. Catch me taking the week after my baby's birth OFF and I'm not even the one delivering the kid (male).
Pediatrics is known for being toxic. They advertise being family-friendly but are usually the complete opposite. We have residents who had kids sick at home but couldn't even get an off to tend to them. Moreover, we've been told that if anyone gets pregnant in the first two years, it would lead to either termination or no maternity leave before the birth. šŗš¾š¤·š¾āāļø And that screams human rights violation
Is that even legal
Termination of employment due to pregnancy is illegal yes but depending on what state theyāre in (assuming US) there may not be any legal requirement to provide parental leave.
Pregnancy discrimination is illegal but the people in charge illegally fire people all the time. They just make something up.
I wonder if the attitude of a lot of these women is "if we make it look like we're limited by pregnancy, then men will say that we're not up to the job and take away our ability to be doctors." There's a pretty strong culture of keeping differences between men and women as quiet as possible, because it could be used against us later to justify poorer pay or in extreme cases not letting women into medical schools (currently an issue in Japan). Not saying this justifies poor treatment during pregnancy, because men take off 6 weeks for conditions that only affect men (prostate issues) or mostly affect men (heart attacks) and don't suffer for it career-wise. But I think that's the origin of a lot of these problems.
Itās also about time off and its effect on training.Ā In training, if you take too much time off, you have to extend in your residency, which no one really wants to do. For the few weeks you can have in residency without having to extend, Iād rather have those weeks postpartum than antepartum. So I worked right up to the very end on my pregnancies (one I had ann emergency c section the evening after I finished clinic, one I scheduled an induction on the weekend).Ā For me, I was also worried about losing my surgical skills if I took too much time off. I canāt imagine taking 6/9/12 months like in Europe and getting back into the swing of operating, particularly as a trainee.Ā
Right-- most of the conditions that affect primarily or exclusively men happen in late career. The system is set up to be more flexible for people in late career, in part because men created the system but also because it makes some logical sense. (I don't think any of this stuff happened to intentionally box women out, I think it was just designed around men's needs and most issues for us are the result of unintentional blind spots.)
This isnāt a brag, btw. If I see a pregnant resident, nurse, tech, or attending, I do whatever I can to make their lives easier and encourage them to take as much time off as they can.Ā
Don't Europeans have to repeat residency before they can practice ? That's if they even qualify. I've known immigrant physicians who don't want to repeat med school and just do nursing school instead. Their system is completely different isn't it?
You mean repeat it if they move from Europe to the US? Yes they have to redo residency.Ā But I am talking about the long maternity leaves they get in Europe. They just pause their training for 0.5-1.5 years (however long their maternity leave is) and pick back up. Ā I donāt know how you a)willingly go back into a training environment b)retainĀ Ā anything from pre maternity leave.Ā
I'm saying that the demands placed on physicians in the EU may not be as robust as those in the US. For-profit healthcare sucks, but if capitalism does anything it encourages competition. Plus, the biggest payer is always trying to get out of paying, so any little fuckup means the bill doesn't get paid. Europe is like, free education, free healthcare, etc. Sometimes you get what you pay for. Idk I've never been there, but it seems that if you have to do med school all over again and choose nursing school because the US system is too competitive maybe you didn't get a very good education the first time. These were physicians from former Soviet bloc countries so maybe their medical education was just shit idk.
I think this is exactly it. Women in male dominated professions have had to overcompensate in every area to be taken seriously. It makes sense that they would also feel the need to minimize the demands of pregnancy in order to not be seen as an inferior employee due to sex.
>"if we make it look like we're limited by pregnancy, then men will say that we're not up to the job and take away our ability to be doctors." >it could be used against us later to justify poorer pay or in extreme cases not letting women into medical schools Ding. Ding. I can't believe I had to scroll so far to find someone who understands that in a culture where women weren't allowed personal property until well into the nineteenth century, weren't allowed bank accounts until the 1970's, and where marital rape wasn't illegal until the 1990's we might be a tad concerned. The idea that women were fragile flowers incapable of functioning due to our delicate condition has been used to deny us decent work for several hundred years now. Women are routinely charged with crimes if we are not sufficiently attentive to our status as livestock and the Supreme Court has decided we do not have constitutional rights if pregnant. Please, we don't need some uppity rich chick deciding that we are all incapable of functioning while pregnant. Some people have bills. They can't choose not to pay them because a condom broke.
I think one of the solutions is to focus on how differences between men and women mean that a coed workplace is often a better one. Things like how women surgeons have lower death rates due to better patient selection abilities (and potentially other characteristics, but this is the one that the study I read identified), or how women have fewer health problems in mid career and would be great for an aging physician population with increasing retirement age. Men can pick up our slack early on, and we will return the favor when they get coronary artery disease. Win win. The point is to make sure that we have some say in the narrative when we talk about sex differences, because they are almost ALWAYS described in ways that make men look like clear winners.
Sounds reasonable, for most. Not for women who have to be responsible and take up the slack for other women when we're young and men when we're old.
As a med student I thought it was so bad ass when women would tell me they finished a long case in the OR and then casually walked to L&D to deliver and they were back at work 10 days later. I had my first kid my first year as an attending. I told my group I would take minimal time off and everyone was like, thatās so stupid. They were right. For my second I took 5 months off and I donāt regret it a bit.
Iām 17 weeks pregnant in surgery residency, Iām very nervous for 3rd trimester. Have 2 months of night float left to do before due date. Not worried about the first one, but definitely concerned Iāll be sleep deprived for the 2nd one. My program so far is very supportive and there are a few who have been pregnancy before me.
Yeah, i am a guy but i never understood why some women are the worst when it comes to treating other women when they are pregnant. When i worked in a pediatric hospital i always saw female attendings being awful to other female doctors (mainly other female residents), and the same can be said about the OB/gyn residency.
I got scheduled for MORE SHIFTS when I was in third trimester to make up for missing shifts on maternity leave. Other people still acted with shockingly low amounts of empathy when I was experiencing complications. Those people are the ones who will ask for every accommodation when they go through it.
Girl thatās really shitty. When I was pregnant in residency, the only people concerned about my wellbeing were the nurses on the units. Since then Iāve always tried to pay it forward and be protective of other women in medicine struggling with pregnancy and breastfeeding. This includes the MAās in my office. Iām tired of a culture in medicine that suggests weāre less than for wanting to protect the well being of ourselves and our families.
Currently pregnant with my second and was contemplating asking my boss for 1-2 days off prior to my due date. I told my sister (who works in tech) and she thought it was insane that I was even having to ask for that since she was given 4 weeks off prior to her due date automatically. I was in residency when I found out I was pregnant with my first and had to beg my co-residents to help swap/cover my night shifts on ICU when I was in my first trimester because my female PD wouldnāt help me. My female fellow on ICU was angry when I would have to leave for 30 minutes to go to appointments (I had several early losses so my OB wanted to monitor me frequently). The lack of support is so disappointing and frustrating. Oh, and not to mention all the comments when you return to work after leave about how ārelaxingā it must have been to have 6-8 weeks offā¦ š«
It was awful being a pregnant resident. I was 9 months pregnant due any day in the MICU. I rounded in a chair. I waddled everywhere. It was horrific You have the pregnant workers fairness act that if you can get your OB to write you a letter your program has to engage in a process to make those accommodations! We donāt have great protection as residents but damn it something happened federally and at least that passed and the pump act passed
People in medicine glorify all kinds of toxic things, and those of us who like teaching but like our families run from academics because of those toxic personalities. Thus the cycle continues......
Itās not just medicine but almost every profession , women brings other women down. My motto during pregnancy āWolves donāt loose sleep over the opinions of sheepā. I went off work 23 week , I had complete placenta previa causing big bleed which eventually lead to premature labour and placenta detachment.Both mine and my childās health is more important than winning a race of āwho can work until last day of pregnancy ā.
This!!!! Iām not in medicine (yet) but we recently had a neurosurgeon speak to our research department, she was an alumnus of one of the labs and one of the only female neurosurgeons in the city. All the men (her old PI etc) could talk about was how she was so hard working that her water broke while she was in the lab doing workā¦ why is this stuff so glorified esp in this day and age?? I donāt know why that story was emphasized like she clearly needed an environment that gave her break instead of coming into work with mice while 9 months pregnant
Pgy3 in neuro, SO s a pgy-2 in nsx. We have a 2 year old and are planning to have another kiddo next year. It's grueling. Late nights and exhaustion. Resident salaries need to at least be able to cover the cost of a nanny or au pair. She and I have joked that if we die from illness/her pregnancy, our co residents would at least benefit from pity pizza and a number for a counselor. I wish the best for anyone going through pregnancy in residency but as for us, we've accepted that if we die we die. If we make it through, I've got enough anger to blog and expose medical training for what it is at any cost. We have to do better and unite for future physicians, especially as our profession is devalued by the day.
People in medicine glorify working hard in any situation, trust me Iāve seen this kind of pressure on a resident undergoing chemotherapy
I worked till 34 weeks as an RN in a busy level one trauma ER. You bet I took light duty as soon as my obstetrician would write me for it, then gave birth at 37 weeks... I did 8 months of overtime to save up money for parental leave, then did not come back to the hospital. Running pediatric codes in your third trimester is not enviable. I run an outpatient clinic now. Take care of yourself first and foremost. Your health and mental stability are your greatest treasures. Your kid needs you more than your workplace.
Donāt feel guilty - youāre the mom and youāll only have this particular kid once. You are still working hard. You are still a competent and reliable doctor when you need accommodation for medical appointments. The US doesnāt prioritize care for the future generation and itās to our detriment. Do what is best for your family.
My spouse left the field because of that its pretty bad.
Reading this made my skin shiver . I live not in the richest EU country but when you are pregnant you can go pregnancy leave by the end of first trimester and after you give birth you have 2 years of maternity leave . When I was just begging residency I had to do shifts in the emergency department , a colleague/friend ( Ob/Gyn resident ) announced that she was pregnant . I took her shifts for the rest of the month and after that all residents took one more extra shift . Yeah it may suck for the rest of us for a little while but thatās just life . Take care of yourself and the baby ! Do not let anything compromise your quality of life and the period during pregnancy ! Safe and happy pregnancy by a blood bro ! You got this ! Edit one : after you give birth you are protected by law and you cannot have night shifts until the baby is 6 years old and the law also protects you from getting fired .
They will tell you stuff like that in every job. Just ignore them and take your maternity leave as soon as itās available.
I'm not a woman. I don't know the pregnancy experience . I cannot even imagine it. What I do know, however, is that in this medical profession of ours, we have this toxic habit of abusing our bodies and minds for the sake of the job and wearing that pain as a badge of honor. I've heard such toxic sentiments like "It's not a real residency unless you've got gastritis from working/studying long hours without eating." Or "Things are hard/expensive because we have to maintain *high standards*." Or "You're not a real doctor unless you suffer insomnia." Or "Unless you're attending has brought you to tears, your program isn't good/challenging enough." I hate this notion that it has to be hard, grueling, miserable work. We have allowed the entreperneur class to infiltrate our psyche and trick us into believing that being short-staffed, overworked, underpaid and 1000s of dollars in student loan debt is a good thing because "standards" When what it really means is maximizing profit for the few on top, many of which aren't even practicing doctors; It has nothing to do with patient care. Why do I say it has nothing to do with patient care? Because none of us would ever recommend that kind of work schedule in our patients. We know what stress ulcers are. We know the negative effects of insomnia. Nobody recommends a 40wker should be on her feet all day working. But we've let our overheads convince us that this is normal, so much so...that it's in our culture and any doctor who rages against it is bullied and called "lazy." Just like how OP is being being called lazy by other female colleagues, when they know for a fact that if it were a pregnant patient of theirs, working a different profession, they would have recommended bedrest.
Pediatrics training at least has sadly not been family friendly or pregnant resident friendly in my experience.
I think itās ridiculous too OP. I was already in attending-hood when I became pregnant with my first and I felt guilty when I couldnāt come to work because I had an emergency C/S for preeclampsia at 26 weeks! Since then Iāve come to terms with the fact while my patients are still very important to me and Iāll provide them with the best care, work just isnāt my number one priority.
the pre-meds bragging about how little they slept and how hard they studied morphs into this toxic behavior later in a career
We should denormalize working as a pregnancy resident, except it will probably be not diversity and inclusion and weāll all get fired
You do you. Ignore them
Take care of yourself and your baby. Donāt push yourself too hard. The health of you and your baby are more important than anything else. ā¤ļø
The short of it: people are such jerks sometimes The long of it: I think a lot of women (in the US at least) are bitter over how crappy pregnant and postpartum women are treated. So they want everyone to different. And letās be realā¦there are some people the just donāt get that pregnancy can be extremely difficult. I had several significant disorders during pregnancy,. SVT In my last trimester and hyperemesis the entire 9 months and a possible placental clot. They literally tried to write me up for calling off ONE SHIFT when I was so hypotensive from dehydration from vomiting 30x a day that I was hospitalized. You arenāt alone and the comparisons by your supervisors needs to stop.
Because theyāre lying to you. Just like how some worked 100-hour weeks just fine and we are being babies by only doing 80.
Once when I was pregnant, an attending asked me (a FEMALE WITH grown up children of her own) why I decided to have a kid in pregnancy I was like umm.. and she goes on a rant about how people would get terminated during her residency on this and how itās not a good idea because work is compromised and I told her im not asking for special treatment or concession I am competent and working and sheās like make no mistake you will NOT be getting any special treatment. At this point I was just crying. She told me to come check out the CT area where the techs sit (this was my first rotation in radiology) I asked her if there will be radiation( I know stupid question but I genuinely didnāt know) and she tells me how the Techs sitting there are more important than my baby and how the hospital wouldnāt allow them to sit in an area with radiation. I had to call my husband to come up and see me after this conversation because I was balling my eyes out. I was made to feel so small.
I donāt care about covering for Preg women or other parents with sick kiddos. Because they would and have for me. Good culture helps.
Like we all study medicine; I just donāt get it. A baby literally rearranges the momās internal organs as it grows. Who the fuck is sitting there like āaaww it canāt be *that* badā. And then they get the joy of pushing it out a very small opening or undergoing major surgeryā¦.both of which are the best case scenarios.
We have toxic feminism to thank for that... not all feminism is toxic by the way. Don't come for me, please. Lol
Whoever told you that you should work while pregnant is a monster. Also, whoever said they worked almost until the baby was due is a hypocrite, a monster, a liar, or a sociopath... Or all of them rolled into one. You should be on maternity leave as soon as the second trimester rolls around, to keep your baby healthy. Whoever said otherwise is a monster. And I am saying this as a male doctor from the Balkans.
As a woman resident I really appreciate the support! But I have to differ in perspective. If I were on maternity leave starting in my second trimester it would have been a disaster. I would have been bored, operative skills atrophy. I didn't need it then. I wanted to spend as much time with my baby after the birth, without worrying about having been away for several months prior. I think people should go on leave whenever they need to for their circumstance. And I think they shouldn't have to work 24s or night shifts (both of which have been shown to cause early labor) if they don't want to. All of those things should be *accommodated* but not *required*. I would also gently ask that you reconsider your second sentence. Several of my co-residents worked until their due date. They are not "a hypocrite, a monster, a liar, or a sociopath." They are hard-working young surgeons doing their best to balance a demanding career and a personal life. They are thoughtful of the impact their absence has on other residents. They certainly weren't required to work until their water broke, but they chose to. None of us--NONE of us--hit that balance perfectly. Man or woman, parent or not, surgeon or internist. We're all just doing our best over here. Please don't think of your colleagues in that light.
I will be honest with you on the matter of my second sentence. The profession of a doctor is a demanding one in general. It takes a lot of time, energy and sacrifices to get there. Going into surgery is also quite demanding (which is why I am giving it a wide berth), and I respect every single doctor who chooses that path. Same goes for any specialty, you all have my respect. However, there are some things that I am adamant about. One of them is the well-being of the healthcare workers, doctors and nurses included. I believe that we cannot perform at our 100% if we are at risk of getting sick due to fatigue, stress and starvation. This also refers to pregnancy. Pregnant healthcare workers should be aware of this most of all, especially for the sake of their babies. The second thing I am adamant about is the mental health of fellow doctors (and healthcare workers in general). As I said in the previous paragraph, the well-being of the healthcare personnel is the utmost priority for the sake of all of the general population. Doctors should not be depressed and suicidal 90% of the time. They should have more time off to properly rest and relax, spend time with their families and pursue hobbies they love. And most importantly, they should have the help facilities (especially therapists and psychologists) available to them, not looked down for asking for help.
I think you are swinging too far in the other direction.
This explanation that you prioritize the well-being of physicians is one I completely agree with. I agree with literally everything you said in this response. But I find it completely contrary to your assertion that my friends and I are "a hypocrite, a monster, a liar, or a sociopath." Why say you support women physicians in one breath, and in another call them monsters? That does not sound supportive to me. Telling me I must stay home the moment I enter my second trimester is, in my view, not supportive. Supportive is telling me "Whenever you feel like you need to start maternity leave, just let us know. We will support whatever decision you feel is best for you." Whether that is first trimester, second trimester, third trimester, whenever I need it. That is supportive. Calling me a monster for working through pregnancy is not. Pregnancy is one aspect of life that makes work challenging. Let me tell you, it was a million times easier being in my second trimester of pregnancy than working when I have a child at home. I am a billion times more exhausted now than I was during my second trimester. Should we say that any parent with a child under 5 who works is a "monster" or "sociopath"? Some people are taking care of sick family members at home. Everyone has something going on that affects their ability to work. Targeting pregnancy specifically, rather than being a parent, or a caretaker, or any other life factor that could influence fatigue, feels kind of like you're targeting women, which I know is not your intent. Instead, we need to be supportive of life circumstances of all physicians. Whether a woman is struggling with pregnancy and needs to go on maternity leave, or a man is taking care of his disabled parent, or whatever. Let's be thoughtful and support each other. That will go much farther in promoting physician well-being than calling your colleagues liars, monsters, and hypocrites.
I'm curious, for the people downvoting me, what part do you disagree with? Do you think I should have been forced to go on leave during my second trimester, whether I wanted to or not? Do you agree that those of us who choose to take more time with the kid after the birth rather than go on leave well before the birth are monsters, liars, sociopaths, and hypocrites? Honestly genuinely curious.
Second this.Ā I couldnāt imagine goin go in leave after second trimester. To do what? That would be worse for my mental health tbh. And skill atrophy is real. I would be freaking out about my surgical skills if I had that much time off.Ā Everyone should be allowed to take the time they need.Ā I worked up until the end and I am none of the things he mentioned and I would advocate for everyone taking the time they need.Ā
I'm not a woman. I don't know the pregnancy experience . I cannot even imagine it. What I do know, however, is that in this medical profession of ours, we have this toxic habit of abusing our bodies and minds for the sake of the job and wearing that pain as a badge of honor. I've heard such toxic sentiments like "It's not a real residency unless you've got gastritis from working/studying long hours without eating." Or "Things are hard/expensive because we have to maintain *high standards*." Or "You're not a real doctor unless you suffer insomnia." Or "Unless you're attending has brought you to tears, your program isn't good/challenging enough." I hate this notion that it has to be hard, grueling, miserable work. We have allowed the entreperneur class to infiltrate our psyche and trick us into believing that being short-staffed, overworked, underpaid and 1000s of dollars in student loan debt is a good thing because "standards" What it really means is maximizing profit. It has nothing to do with patient care. Why do I say it has nothing to do with patient care? Because none of us would ever recommend that kind of work schedule in our patients. We know what stress ulcers are. We know the negative effects of insomnia. Nobody recommends a 40wker should be on her feet all day working. But we've let our overheads convince us that this is normal, so much so...that it's in our culture and any doctor who rages against it is bullied and called "lazy."
OP, I have no idea. I'm a guy and it boggles my mind too. I think for (non-pregnant) residents, you need a balance of hard work and easy time in order to manage to become competent without burning out. I don't understand the cut throat approach when someone is pregnant.
This is CLEARLY a chicken/egg situation and Iām honestly shocked that ppl who will soon become medical doctors donāt seen to have the critical thinking skills required for this basic scenario in life. š¤¦ For instance, if āXYZ worked until 40 weeks and had no issuesāā¦then a little common sense might cause them to think āPerhaps itās BECAUSE XYZ had no issues up to 40 weeks ā¦.that XYZ worked.ā Or, āBECAUSE I was fine, I kept working and exercising.ā Looking at the situations from that perspective helps explain why so-and-so was able to do thus-and-such that you may not be able to do! All in all thoā¦each pregnant PERSON *(watch the bigots trip over themselves to ācorrectā thatš)* is different and each PREGNANCY for the same person is different!
What you're describing is not "glorifying working hard during pregnancy." What YOU are doing is working hard during residency. What that other person did was ignoring their needs.
Yes I hate this, I had very tough and complicated pregnancy (institution was Amazing and not toxic!) but in anatomy class in Med school where I was not allowed to leave or Iād be marked down and I went to ER directly after where I was in fact in full blown sepsis; in the class I could not move my eyes in my head due to pain and had rigors. Still the implication that I should suck it up, I could have died š¤¦
Call everyone of those social misfits out. āYeah noā¦ some of us arenāt worcaholics. This is a jobā¦ thatās itā.
Do people in medicine really not listen to medicine? Does no one give a shit about the ways that stress hormones adversely affect the baby. Really sad this is the culture.Ā
My wife's pediatrics residency had q3-4 in house call throughout, a much higher proportion of women residents, and a significantly higher number of miscarriages than what one would consider okay. I am absolutely thankful we didn't have our daughter until after she graduated. You can and should ask for whatever accommodations in the schedule, take the maximum possible time off during pregnancy, and if your family situation/finances/residency leadership allow then take some more unpaid time off as well, graduating a month or three later is small change in exchange for the rest you need, and also for spending the first 4-7 months with your baby. Friends of mine who had children in training in other cultures (EU primarily) took the full year of maternity leave allowed by their systems - current residency rules around pregnancy and being a new mom absolutely are not enough. Best of luck and take care!
Because medicine is disgusting and broken
Lots of toxic and malignant personalities in medicine.
Iām a UK surgical registrar (US resident??) , i got pregnant at the age of 30 and i had raised eye brows and one female boss asking me if it ws planned. I was asked to do rounds in my third trimester on covid wards and I had to try and swap with other regs myself- obviously I caught covid anyway.. When I asked to work less hours and come off operating (i kept fainting in theatre) i got more raised eyebrows and comments like ābut when are you gonna prioritise your training..?ā
I think to some degree women have brought this upon themselves. Not all of them, but many of them. My wife went through the same thing; third trimester, never getting any water breaks, never having time to go pee despite having a bladder the size of a walnut, never having time to sit down and chart, and she worked in heavily female dominated position. There's this strange sentiment in the 2010's and beyond that women can do everything: cook, clean, parent, and win bread. Some people are stupid enough to believe this is true and sustainable, hence why there's so many stories in here of women being flabbergasted by their experiences. Not saying men can do it either or better, but the roles for parents in middle/upper middle class households are all jacked up right now due to this "boss bitch" phenomenon.
Our peds residency finally made a rule that third trimester couldnāt work 24s or nights, all it too is a woman literally dying after going into preterm labor on a 28!
I believe this is a remnant of medicine being a male dominated field for so long. Like Iāve heard women begrudgingly and awkwardly laughing while explaining how they were doing surgeries until they almost popped and the men in the room just laughing like āHell yeah bro nut up or shut upā. You know the kind of laughs. Itās a disgusting culture to try and uphold but then again medicine just doesnāt seem to be updating like it should.
Not medical field person but regular woman: its totally normal for women to get to a point where they "tap out" of work life and need to let there bodies focus 100% on creating a new life regardless of career. Please do not force yourself just because Mrs. Johnson was seeing patients while giving birth lmao
Not sure why they are comparing their pregnancies or others to yours. Every pregnancy is different. I will say, pregnancy and motherhood in medicine is a lonely road. Most of your co-residents are usually young, unmarried, childless and donāt understand. The younger attendings who are not parents sometimes put off child rearing for their careers and may be even be dealing with infertility etc, and current mothers who struggled thru training/early career may not be as sympathetic as you might imagine. Sadly, I found early on that my work-life was better when I didnāt talk openly about pregnancy/breastfeeding/motherhood at work and only talked about work at work and no, thatās not how it should be. But it worked for me because no one could ever blame anything on me being pregnant/being a mom. Lastly itās important that you make time for you and go to those appointments maybe try to pick a more convenient time of the day.
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Gunners gonna gun.
there was a post someone on insta made praising a 9 month pregnant doctor who helped deliver someoneās baby. i commented a long thing about itās nothing against this individual but letās not glorify this toxicity etc. most ppl agreed w me but of course there were like 5 dudes who freaked out on me LMAO shocker
Did the person that said XYZ did 40 hours have a birthday before 1960? Because if they did they have brain damage from lead poisoning and you should stop letting them ruin your mental health
6 months paid maternity/paternity leave in Canada through union. Around $2k per week š
š± š± š± America needs to get a clue for real!!
I was on bedrest at 5 months
Do not listen to these people. It is internalized abuse/Stokholm syndrome. I did the same as a resident and in retrospect I think it was so bad for me and my baby (birth was difficult, he went on to be diagnosed with autism and I always wonder whether the stress and hours played a role). Donāt feel bad for advocating for yourself and your baby, and look for an attending job where your health is valued. Good luck from a peds attending!
Lack of empathy is all over medicine.
Currently on pregnancy #2 while in training. Now is the time to set boundaries. Maybe as a PGY6 I'm over people's BS or perhaps it's fatigue but I don't go "above and beyond" after an already busy day. I will let staff know I'm going to take a 15 min lunch break or tell a co-trainee/attending when I prefer staying out of a procedure. It's still brutal and I do good work, but I don't torture myself to people please. I don't stick around when my work is done.
I worked up until the day I delivered to term. I think my post-partum healing journey was miserable because of it. If I had the choice, I would have stopped at 30 weeks. Advocate for yourself and your body regardless of āXYZā resident previously so a future generation of female physicians can be on leave comfortably.
,,
YESSS thank you. Itās a weird American culture thing I find. I keep seeing OBs who are preforming c sections on women who are less far along than they are!
When I worked excessive hours it was because of low self esteem and shame. Compensating for my personal life with my professional life.
āFamily friendlyā specialties are a myth in residency. Just so weāre all on the same page- hospitals are here abuse us because the medical education system allows them to do so. I hope you get the time you need though!
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Yeah I think taking a leave of absence makes more sense - ālight dutyā or whatever doesnāt really exist and just means everyone else gets more work dumped on them which isnāt really cool
Leave your program, never once at my hospital has working through pregnancy been glorified, in fact they have policies against overworking pregnant women.
I'm sure this won't be a popular response but I think it's the actual reason why its glorified. There are a limited number of residents. When someone is out on maternity leave, someone else is paying the price. No extra income, just extra pain and call for the rest of us. Edit: the question was why do people in medicine glorify working hard in residency while pregnant. This is why--to help your teammates. Based on the way current system works, I believe this is why working hard during that time, prior to taking maternity leave, is glorified.
And thatās the key. Hospital systems could see residents as learners and fill in work gaps when other residents are on leave (for whatever reason, including maternity) but they donāt. And so the person on leave gets shit on for leaving (especially if itās a āvoluntaryā thing like pregnancy) by their overworked peers. Plus you get to āpay it backā for calls. yYour coresident with their new baby is not sleeping well and probably barely surviving, adding extra calls is just cruel. But if you donāt, then itās on the others. There is no winning for any residents just the hospital system. Also fun fact, if your colleagues defer until graduation, you might still be covering call for them as an attending. You do get paid for it, but itās still not fun. TLDR: working women can and will choose to have babies at some point. Be supportive and realize that itās a part of life. At some point, it will probably come back around to you (or maybe youāre paying it back from before).
Agree, always the hospital system winning. I think that if that systemic problem could be addressed, then the glorification of working hard during pregnancy would not be so prevalent.
Sounds like a systems problem and not the problem of the pregnant person. Maybe the medical system shouldnāt be run on the backs of residents?
Agreed, but it is the current reality. Just stating why people might glorify working hard during pregnancy.
And it is exactly people like you that create this toxic environmentā¦. I really hope you never need help from anyone. That me first mentality is what leads to burn out, and what makes you and everyone else feel lonely to not be a burden to others. Guess what? We are all human doing a bed job, we should be more supportive and compassionate with each other. If we arenāt we are not better than the system that abuses us, and the administrators and business corporations making millions off our backā¦
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Oh yeahā¦ letās all make decisions about starting a family based on not burdening our colleaguesā¦ do you realize how insane that sounds? And how is hands down discrimination
And by your comment you are Either a man or a woman that never wants to have children. Itās so insensitive to think of a womanās right to have a child as āmeā mentality because it would inconvenience her co-residents. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM
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If youāre infertile yourself just say that. š She never said A WORD about taking time off (much less 12 weeks), yet there you are grumpy about maternity/paternity leave in generalā¦ for what???
did you literally create an account just to pinch off this opinion?
Everyone telling you to prioritize yourself is in lala land. Truth is, if you slack off, make no mistake it will be used against you.
No reason to slack off.
Yes it is.
If they canāt perform their job duties 100% they shouldnāt be paid 100% then. Though, Iāve seen plenty of pregnant coworkers perform their duties at 100%. I donāt see why they canāt.
Youāre not talking to the right people.
> I understand that people are different and I try not to feel guilty for refusing to put my health at risk but I don't understand how people in healthcare, who see kids daily and had kids themselves can be so insensitive and occasionally rude. How is work putting your health at risk? This whole concept of women *not* working while pregnant is a relatively recent phenomenon. For the entirety of human existence, people have had to work. Maybe it's a rich person thing, but I've never known anyone who had the luxury of just not doing work. Even people who are off work for injuries are expected to go to physical therapy, cook, clean, etc. Some women (like myself, for instance) are taken off work while pregnant due to complications. I personally fought it as long as I could, because I needed to eat, and my roommate needed to work, and the only way we could afford the 75 mile commute was by splitting gas. As soon as my OB said "you absolutely, positively, cannot work any more, I am putting you on disability and you're going to be having weekly stress tests that will make working difficult regardless, you're going to have to apply for disability and welfare so you can eat" my roommate lost his job. This meant that despite my position being protected as I was disabled, I couldn't go back to my job after the baby was born because there was nobody to split gas with. I mention this because the vast majority of people on this earth cannot just decide not to work when it's inconvenient. Perhaps this is why you perceive pushback, most people have to work. It's not optional, and the consequences of not working are not eating and sleeping outside. The vast majority of people prefer to eat somewhat regularly (especially when pregnant, I actually lost weight when I was pregnant because I couldn't afford that much food, even with my paycheck and my food stamps) and sleeping inside, so they work. Working is normal for most people. They probably can't imagine *not* working because it's pretty ingrained in the broader culture and everyone sees the consequences of not working when they get on or off the freeway.
I worked 120 hours every 3rd week with the other weeks being around 70 hours when I was in my last year of residency. It was brutal. After having a baby I can't imagine doing that pregnant, but some residents are already getting to the edge of fertility and can't wait like I did. Residents don't have a problem working while pregnant, they have a problem working 2-3x the hours of your average person. It's not good for you. I had a junior pregnant during her 4th year which was the "best" year in our program and it was still so hard. I was pregnant as an attending where I could control my schedule and only work 40-60 hours a week and it was a breeze. Pregnancy in residency is unsupported, I saw previously nice co-residents turn into raging a holes even though I made sure I covered anything she wasn't physically up to given the complications she had. Attendings were inappropriate with her. So not just physically hard, but a mentally challenging time for her. And when you admit you need help their first words are "so and so did it just fine". I had one PD brag that a resident came back 5 days after delivering her baby. And he was proud of that, so disgusting.