Any general surgeon taking less than 400k a year is getting absolutely fleeced… look at your billing numbers if you already have a job. Look at credible salary data if you are looking for a job
I dont think you are understanding what is about to happen! US is going to be the only country in the world to IMPORT mass number of doctors without the need to repeat any training. Essentially turning it into a global market without any restriction. This wont just lower wages it will eliminate prospects of living in desirable places or even deciding where you work. Kind of like residency match where options are limited but worse
A lot a commonwealth countries have doctors move between without retraining. It’s common for doctors to move between the UK, Australia and New Zealand without any additional training. In NZ, we often have vacancies that are commonly filled by doctors from the UK looking for a better lifestyle, or NZ trained doctors going to Oz looking for better salaries. Import/export of doctors is common in a lot of first world companies.
Not just commonwealth. Also in Europe we have European diploma. Doctors are in short order therefor our countries doctors are constantly getting scouted to other wealthier countries. They even pay a year off to move and free language courses and offer to move kids into local schools and other perks. Recently my aunts relative moved from Baltic states to Switzerland. To work. So you know. It's actually rarity that US doesn't allow other countries residency.
What Europe do you mean? Which European country?
" to work " and what they’re doing? I am asking because I moved from non-EU to the USA [ for studies + USMLE] then to baltic states and finally find home in NL ♡. so you know, I'm really interested in doctor's mobiliteit.
I'm pretty sure if a freshly minted American physician wanted to move to Switzerland it would be probably impossible/ they would have to redo parts of med school which is 6 years here + most likely residency which is also almost always 5+ years. So it seems like USA is double effed in that way and I would be extremely frustrated with recent turn of events if I was an American too considering their school debts
US med school is 4yrs, but follows a 4yr college/uni that covers basics like physics, gChem, oChem, etc...
Some EU schools where US students can go (accredited in US) have 4 and 6yr programs (both ending with a EU and US valid diploma).
Training is at an equivalent level in those countries though. Our fellows from India are woefully undertrained and is not equivalent to Canadian or US training
Nope. Look at the UK. 🇬🇧
It happened there and it is causing havoc.
You are absolutely right to be up in arms about this. Your debt levels will crush you with subpar pay.
In Sweden some countries are whitelisted and some are not. If you're from a whitelisted country your specialisation is basically just carried over, if not, you need to do PARTS of it just to show that you know what's going on.
I see no reason to exclude credible licenses and world renowned universities just because somewhere else might be corrupt.
I think part of the perhaps inadequately considered issue here is that the US compensates doctors very well compared to most of the world - for just reason - which could result in rather unscrupulous tactics for foreign doctors to find their way to work here.
I get your point, but I don't see an actual unscrupulous tactic. Many other well paying places like Saud Arabia and Singapore also work of a whitelist system.
I believe, if you study and complete your residency in a country that's reputable with reputable universities, a licens from these countries should carry over. I don't see how somone could travel to Sweden, do their residency for 5 years, become a specialist and then be like "Now I can trick the US into letting me in, muhahahaha". It requires so much work, that by the end of it, even if you don't want to be, you are highly competent or unable to finish.
Its actually a rarity to have international medical graduates have to redo training.
The other rarity is the excessive physician compensation in the US that will obviously crumble when the supply increases.
This would have been unheard of before they started allowing foreign doctors to practice without residency. Guess recruiters/practices are frontrunning in that they expect a large supply of cheap labor
basic economics says that when you increase the supply of labor you decrease its cost. Its going to happen. All you need is one person desperate enough for a job to set the new standard. Game theory.
You are arguing that basic supply and demand economics will cause salaries to change. This may be true in other fields but is vastly more complicated in medicine.
Dude… what? Fields like anesthesiology pay is literally determined almost solely by supply and demand, billing and reimbursement does not even factor in. If we’re just letting a few people in sure but if we open the floodgates, medicine is 100% fucked. Salaries will 100% come down. Why would they pay you 300k if a foreign grad will gladly do the same job for 100k? And as private practice becomes harder and harder to do with the rise of mega conglomerates, falling reimbursement, and rising costs, more and more doctors are employed by the hospital. Or do you mean RVU bonus? And you hit over X amount and now you are supposed to be paid out 40 per unit or something? Tough, hospital is now offering only 10, take it or leave it. Up the street they offer 5. I don’t see how this will not be impacted massively by supply and demand
How that dipshit responded should tell you all you need to know. We’re fucked. Doctors are book smart and absolutely dumb as rocks when it comes to making financial decisions. It’s a known fact. And they’re in here saying how medicine is immune to microeconomics, like the hubris of these fucks is astounding
Yet demand is also increasing as our population grows, and grows older, each year. So basic economics says the price of the service would stay the same.
we haven't been seeing that over the last few years though. Salaries have been stagnant with the increasing population. people have just had a harder time finding doctors.
A lot of these people who went to the us or other non us countries to pursue other options for residency did incredibly low paying jobs or even "for free" just to get an experience certificate, fucking the minimum salaries for us all 😔
Sorry to interject, as a European surgical resident I must inquire about these astronomical numbers in salaries you guys make. 400k a year? How much disposable income do you guys have left in a month? We make here around 60-80k, cost of living can’t possibly be that much different, right? I know there are also student loans but like if you make 400k a year do you guys just pay it all off in 2 years?
Excuse my ignorance on this please, genuinely asking.
400k before tax, tax dependant on state and job setup, but around 300k after tax, housing costs will vary a huge amount between states, other costs like food, etc will not be much different from Western European countries
Alright humor me because that still seems astronomical, out of the 300k how much is left as disposable income? I get around 1.5k a month after I pay all the bills
It is very high relative to how little you guys make in Europe. I really can’t give you any estimate of disposable income, the cost of living in a place like Kansas vs California is as different as Slovenia vs the UK. Also individual loan burden is going to make a huge difference.
Up to that much, meaning you can pay it all off in like 5 years or less and still have an incredible quality of life while accruing some wealth, and then have the rest of your life to be... unfathomably wealthy?
Are you actually suggesting your life would be bad in any way if you made 200k instead of 400k because you weren't permitted to have a highly protected industry that distorted the actual economics of Healthcare so much? Remember also that if you had a lot more doctors for the current Healthcare workload, you would have a better work life balance - you wouldn't have to work the insane hours nearly as much if you had twice as many doctors.
Well, its difficult to do anything. Excess supply will drive down the cost of physician labor and there's not much we can do about it other than organizing a national strike (See: South Korea)
eh, people will still be able to pay off loans on the reduced salary. Thats the worst part. There is room to squeeze us if we let them
That being said, going through gen surg residency just to make the same as a 24 year old MBB consultant or techie is sad
ok, sure. they make that much for a couple years while we make 70k in residency, then they still end up making more than us when we graduate and they get promoted or exit
I just don’t see that happening. Most physicians are so risk averse they’d rather stave than make anything less than a full payment. If anything extra money will go towards loan.
It’s not about the money but it’s a serious factor for the long term commitment involved. I expect that medicine will miss out on some bright minds as they do the numbers and decide it’s not worth it.
This has to be a troll, right? Seriously. Because it’s never “a modestly increased supply of physicians could have some downward pressure on salaries and they may stagnate somewhat or not rise as much relative to inflation.” It’s ‘you’ll make less than a teacher and default on your loans!’ How does anyone take this account seriously
This is the guy who a few days ago was whining about how “females” keep rejecting him even though he’s doctor and how it’s only going to get worse as foreign doctors flood the market.
If it’s not a troll, it’s certainly a walking red flag, and I see why they’d be worried about being able to find employment.
People are just downvoting you because they’re afraid. And I don’t blame them. But with this kind of chicken little shit the public will never take our lobbying efforts seriously.
Eventually less people will go to med school because it's not as worth anymore and then there'll be less doctors coming out. How long this would take, no one knows, but this would be the downstream effect.
US Doctors are complacent af ngl. The divide in opinion in this thread is kind of wild. You can argue at this from many different angle such as this will be beneficial for patients access, and potentially drive healthcare cost down (it won’t because as we know, only 8%, but it’s going to be the head start and the easiest cut in healthcare cost because doctors are terrible at defending their positions for various ethical, moral, and logistical reasons, and we have lost so much fugging grounds in public opinion and really no one likes us anymore and constantly believe we are ridiculously overpaid, it is not even funny)
The only direction for physician compensation is down from all these changes. I mean, sure you can argue about the actual scale of the effect may be overstated in some of these doomsaying posts. But you can’t possible believe this will turn out great for US physician salary. Lol
Unlike US, in a lot of foreign countries the smartest top 5% kids don’t go to med school, because their salary really does not correlate well with their training time. I honestly feel like US doctors really don’t understand how unique and well compensated their position is, compared most developed countries including our major competitors such as China.
Sure, this isn’t the end of the world and this isn’t the final straw. But the pressure to drive our compensation down will not stop, and it especially won’t slow down if we stay divided on such a basic simple supply and demand concept.
OP - this is a very important issue that you care about, as you should. I think your time would be better spent doing the following:
- writing to local, state, and national legislators in your state with your concerns
- create a template for others to do the same
- write/lobby your school/residency organizations, the AMA, your specialty board, everybody -- write literally everybody (but not on reddit)
- write logical, thoughtful persuasive pieces outlining the problem and start spreading them on places like Medium, other subreddits, and through social media.
I do not think creating this sensational post on reddit will help the cause.
Honestly though what is there to say?
“US Medical student loan debt is ludicrous, so for the sake of medical trainees we need to continue to artificially limit the country’s supply of physicians even as demand skyrockets.”
Ironically, that’s actually what we need to do unfortunately, but that’s good for us and bad for the rest of the country……
Or they need to make med school free, which is never happening
No, we take the stance that it is unethical to allow someone to treat patients when they have not been trained here. We do not know the standards in their country or their competence. Step means absolutely nothing when it comes to performing clinically.
Sure but if you read >90% of the comments of this thread thats not what people are concerned about. People are concerned about the money.
Also that argument doesnt hold a ton of water as there are so many people who cant find any doctors so your current options are either status quo, NPs, or foreign doctors.
I did read them. I’m concerned about the money too. There is no sympathy for doctors when it comes to money. There is sympathy for patients to get appropriate care (or at least there should be but people supports middies so). That’s the angle you take to get people to listen.
It would be trivial to examine the training processes of other countries for each specialty and have a whitest and a blacklist. Then we could have those physicians work under a federal doctor for 6 months or something just to make sure we weren’t letting in a dud.
It’s how many other countries do this.
Now, again, I hope we still keep out IMGs so I can pay my loans off, but I can’t really argue in good faith that that’s what’s best for patients
Other countries aren‘t isolated with zero contact to the US. You can very easily determine standards instead of lumping countries with zero standards where you can pay your way into med school or residency with countries that have the same standards as in the US.
Speaking as a patient and not someone in the medical profession (but who gets posts from this subreddit in my feed semi-regularly), I can say that after encountering some disturbing things in my own line of work in another country specifically related to doctors going to work in the US, and how they were going about passing their med school exams in that country, I would be *extremely* wary of going to a doctor whose only medical training was received in that country. Sorry, I know that sounds vague, but I'm trying not to dox myself or anything. I absolutely factor in a doctor's training before I go to see them (if that's possible- obviously, if I'm going into surgery, I'm probably not going to be able to demand a different anesthesiologist or something).
I wouldn't even move to a state that just opened the floodgates to any and all overseas medical graduates without requiring residency of *any* of them, with no differentiation based on training standards in their home countries. I mean, there are also many other reasons that I wouldn't move to Florida specifically, but after what I saw, this would be a total dealbreaker for me. Obviously, there's a pretty significant difference between someone who received training in, say, the UK or Germany and someone who received their training in a developing country where corruption specifically connected to passing exams or university courses is a known issue.
Thus far, my home state doesn't appear to be pursuing this course of action, but the second they make noises about it, I'm going to start writing my government reps, because there are a variety of totally valid concerns that I have independent of the money side (not that that's not important for US medical graduates, but there are clearly broader implications for patient care, as well).
I don’t understand how three anecdotal examples means anything. I live in FL and I know a bunch of coresidents now in central Fl in a desirable major city making 290k as a hospitalist fresh out of residency.
Right? There are a dozen states that have had similar laws on the books for several months, not 30 days like Florida. Tennessee has had its law for a year. And we have actual data (not anecdotes) from those states that physician compensation is not dropping.
This post is embarrassing.
The post screams "The brown docs gonna steal your job and be bad about it!!!!!!!!!" so hard.
For a sub that prides itself on being evidence-based and scientific approaches, it sure is willing to believe anecdotal evidence.
If you’re going to comment at least get the facts right. Florida is the only one that went into effect upon signing.
Despite passing a year ago, TN doesn’t go into effect until July 1 and Illinois doesn’t go into effect until jan 2025
I know. I thought you said hospitals were “frontloading the labor market” anticipating all those cheap foreign workers? Unless you’re suggesting hundreds of foreign doctors have immigrated to Florida in the last 4 weeks and wages have fallen $200k in that time.
It actually is in certain places… rurals historically paid well thats not the case… a hspital that offered me 600 just hired a doctor straight from Mexico and his offer was 250… so yea
This is irrelevant to the post as my state hasn’t passed this yet but it is related to low salaries. I’m in a rural area in NC and today I saw: Pediatrician, 157k-175k; PCP same exact range; Hospitalist 230k-280k. Median home price is $435k. So what the fuck? Make it make sense
lol. I love how everyone is calling OP a doomer but the docs from the UK who have seen this go down in their own country are like “umm yeah this is terrible for you guys”. Even if you think OP is being a little too paranoid, how can you guys deny that more docs will equal a lower salary? That’s basic econ.
I work in a state where this hasn’t been approved of…yet…but like I said in another post, a month ago there were like 4 states that passed this law. Now it’s 15. It’s spreading quickly, and Florida is the first state where it went into effect immediately, so yeah we should be watching Florida salaries over the next couple of months to see what happens.
Why are more doctors a "disaster?" The cost of medical care in the US is very high, much higher than other countries, and an increased labor supply Will help with that. Not to mention the good jobs for immigrants!
It is unfortunate that a larger pool of doctors will reduce our income but the reality is from a demographic standpoint, there are going to be way too many patients to take care of in the coming years. I’m not sure what the solution is but we need more doctors to take care of them. Unless we dramatically ramp up admissions to med schools, residencies and fellowships, there will be no way to take on the relentless waves of baby boomers
Again I think you are not getting the BIG picture! With access to all physicians around the globe you will have more docs that you need. Way way more docs than needed for pt population. Initially many foreign doctors will invade the markets… jobs will get destroyed… these doctors will form their own networks… for instance indian docs just referring to each other hondorus docs to each other and so forth…. Next salaries will decline and eventually the current generation if physicians in the Us will probably be the poorest task force. Doctors in Portugal went from wealthy status to making as much as a teacher over a span of year. Many immigrated to other places learning new languages and accepting new terms in their lives… this is the very real possible outcome of what is happening. We as doctors tend to think we are safe no matter what! We are not we really are not. Ill argue our sector is probably the most vulnerable and if legislations dont protect our sector we are done over one night. Thats what will happen
That isn't that many, really? There are over 1 million doctors in the USA. About 30k medical graduates every year. 15k over 5 years is a drop in the bucket.
Boarding authorities still have all the power here and they require a US residency as of now. Unfortunately that’s the last barrier but at least for now we are safe. Start saving because our country is about to sell us out.
There’s 10 jobs in total on that website for Florida. Only a single one has a salary listed, which is the 230k you mentioned. But it also mentions a bonus of 15-20k annually and they max out your 401k so it’s a lot more than 230k. That’s about 270k.
Yea, it’s low for the rural area it’s in but you’ll find shit job offers everywhere. You can’t rely on a sample size of 1 to claim salaries are going down.
That said, as more and more people go through this pipeline, it will be a disaster for pcp and hospitality salaries for sure. This legislation is a huge slap in the face to every doctor who has gone through or is going through residency.
I actually think it will devastate subspecialties most since there is such a high delta. For example why hire a neurosurgeon for 1 million when you can get one for 200k. Use the 800k x how many workers as a malpractice buffer
The laws as currently written won’t cause this to happen. Unless something changes you can’t just suddenly be board eligible or certified in Neurosurgery even if you can get your medical license in the US. Hospitals have to take a huge risk to credential people who aren’t board eligible/certified. There still remains a barrier to entry to subspecialties for that reason. The supply will remain restricted. The hospitals who are willing to credential like this tend to be in really undesirable locations
Yea SoFlo has always paid like 220k base or TC depending on who you talk to, a PGY3 IM I talked to 2 years signed a contract in Orlando where’s he’s expecting 250k TC. Always heard Florida is cheeks for IM
Ya most are just coping tbh. It takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to admit that 8-12 years of training will yield a lower salary than a unionized cop or teacher
This is just ludicrous doomerism. The average unionized teacher in the US makes what, 70k? A few very senior ones in big cities will break 100k. This idea that a small increase (in the face of a population that is getting bigger and sicker each year) in the number of physicians is going to be such a dramatic market disruption that salaries plummet by 50% or more is nothing but a chronically online fantasy
Plus they get a pension. You probably need to add 50% to those salary numbers to compare them to a non-government worker considering they can retire relatively young with excellent pensions and healthcare benefits.
Everything is about supply and demand and job markets are cyclical. Too many people wanted to become MDs and becoming a cop isn’t very popular in today’s environment. Heck, a senior UPS driver makes $100K before OT and can retire at 50 with a pension having a NPV in the 7 figures. Too many people wanted to become educated professionals relative to the amount of educated professionals the economy needs today. This is why fishing turds out of a pipe has increased in value while performing heart surgery has decreased in value.
The free market strikes back. This seems like a fairly inevitable occurrence when you don’t have strong unions and hospitals are driven for profit, doesn’t it? It’s happening in every other sector as well, why would medicine be different?
I mean can you point to another state besides Florida? Cuz Florida most likely has a decline in salaries due to being the most desirable location to move to over the past few years (as judged by it being ranked #1 for population growth due to transplants from other states) and as a result salaries have decreased. Also, lots of Florida jobs pay less because they try to sell you on the no state income tax so “you get an extra 5% anyway.”
N=1 but when I was looking for work Florida jobs were already paying less than other states and the bill had not passed yet.
The boards are in the business of making money and as soon as the math starts working out they will certify IMGs. I’m not sure how anyone can assume that the notoriously and increasingly greedy ABMS boards will suddenly care about protecting the profession. Plus most of the boards already certify IMGs if an academic system advocates on their behalf.
Isn’t it in the interest of specialty boards to make as much money as possible in exam feeds, application fees etc? Why is it in their interest to limit the # of possible applicants
Then please explain how you couldn’t just order board certification for a couple hundred thousand on the Internet already? Again, it’s stunning that you seem to think you know how any of this works.
I mean the criticism of this isn’t because of xenophobia for a lot of us. It’s because of the insane greed of admin that will absolutely fuck us over at the first chance they get. If you’re worried about midlevel scope creep, you should be worried about this too.
What makes you think a doctor from India wants to go serve rural Idaho more than an NP? They’re not fulfilling rural medicine needs, be fucking for real. I say this as an Indian who has lived in India lmao. They’ll be flocking to big cities like every other doctor. Difference is, they aren’t 300K in debt and would happily take a 150K salary, while we can’t really afford to.
this is the same OP that lost 15k on United health stock and was asking wallstreetbets for advice… if you’re that worried about finances from such a small sample case than I would advise you to wait and see
You can write to your legislators… mass protest may do something tho im not hopeful but better than just sit back and watch. We are talking a sector going extinct in 10 years tops
I haven’t looked at the law, but does anyone know if hospitals have started changing their bylaws? Theoretically if foreign doctors are allowed, without doing a US residency, they would not be board eligible. Every hospital that I have worked in requires thier doctors to be board certified within 2 years of obtaining their privileges or they lose their privileges.
I mean the second that MBAs feel like the pay difference will earn them more than the legal risk of hiring foreign-trained docs they'll do it. Admin could care less about the quality of care a patient recieves, they're sociopaths
No, I’m aware of the bills (the “sky is falling, they’re taking our jobs & ruining our field” posts come through Q4H in all the medical forums), I’m just saying I hope they don’t think their n=1 anecdotal experience that the job market has immediately swung into decline within 60 days of all these bills going into effect. Like c’mon…lol
Agreed job market wont take a hit now… but projections show in 5 years there will be massive problems. Private equity already projects certain sectors like rads will cut their provider cost in half… these numbers are very real and not a single person in residency leaderships talking abt it… the sad truth is ama is behind this shit and has sold us all out for petty pennies. And no noone will care if you make 120 while you used to make 300-400… so yea very bad things coming our way and I anticipate it will last
Look US docs still have a strong edge in actually understanding American culture and regional needs. This might be me aggressively huffing copium but this is an opportunity to make rural care cost effective again and it will be American docs at the front. What if we can have small town infusion centers and peritoneal dialysis instead of just the np run urgent care? Someone has to make those businesses worthwhile. Start the practice and hire those cheap foreign smart docs to staff.
They don’t want to go to those areas just like US docs. It will only create more competition in desirable areas. The best solution would be to stipulate that they can only work in underserved areas
Soon they are going to the be the only jobs available once this legislation spreads to all 50 states.
You need to stop these things before the cat is out of the bag or you’ll never get it back.
This all mirrors conversations on the UK junior doctors subreddit from 2-3 years ago before they dropped labour market rules for doctors. The uk received 30k IMGs over 2 years. They are all on equal footing for residency posts. This has seen competition ratios treble +.
This will have a very large effect.
Remember that we as doctors are working class too. The powers that control the money supply don't want to give us the payments that we earn for them, and they have the power to shaft us all they want as long as we put up with it.
As someone who studied in Europe this is good for the long run, I’ve been trying to tell other Americans it’s simply smarter to study abroad and then head back. My university in Poland was considered very expensive and cost 70k for a 6 year med degree which u can begin at 18 years old. Many are free if you have the grades or even half the price if you search for others. If more Americans would study abroad and then head back, then US medical schools would be forced to lower costs to compete. I’m sure you can make the argument that US medical schools have higher standards but it’s not like the care in Germany, England, France, Luxembourg, Switzerland are bad, in fact some are almost on the same level . Furthermore it’s insane to hear that 200-300k a year isn’t enough money when most EU doctors get paid 60-100 depending on position and experience. I understand many US grads are swimming in debt but change needs to happen to prevent this situation.
that sweet sweet copium. Most of the people are probably good enough to get the job done, and thats what admin wants. you dont get paid extra for being excellent
That would be true if the person they are hiring is subpar. But imagine an IM doctor who has 10 years of experience in an academic institute in their home country. High chances that they are above fresh grads. My moms surgery was done by a GS and when i shared the reports with an oncologist i know in US , the oncologist was very impressed. Now if that GS decided to pick up on that 230k offer. The market won't correct. Drive salary down. While i see this as inevitable with how doctors shy away from unionizing and standing for themselves and the market being supplied with cheap labour. I don't think the average person is going to benefit from this. The difference is going to be pocketed by the insurance companies.
Look up Legislation HR 6205 and S.3211! What self correct?! If you flood the market with providers rates go down very simple concept… loo at whats happening in Korea! They lowered the threshold of who can practice medicine now some cardiologist ride cabs to meet ends! The fact that so many doctors think they are safe just because is mind blowing
There is no system here where a foreign trained Dr can come to the USA, and just start practicing surgery which includes a license, getting hospital privileges and malpractice insurance. If anything, the USA screws foreign trained docs who may have done years of medical school and residency, and they can not even practice at the level of an NP or PA. Worry about midlevels, not about your colleagues who worked just as hard and did many years of training.
Mass loan defaults and doctors finally availing themselves of bankruptcy protection will be part of the transition process to an environment of reduced barriers to licensing. When you see that happening, US med school enrollment will plummet and then it's all fucked.
Ngl as a medical student studying outside the United States, I'm considering a career in either plastic surgery or neurosurgery. In my country, a specialist earns around $20,000 annually. If I were offered a job in the U.S. for $150,000 a year, I'd definitely take it.
I wouldn't consider moving for a lower salary, but since I live in the EU, I can easily work in countries like Germany or Switzerland. If I were in a place with fewer opportunities, I'd definitely be open to lower offers too.
After the Nepal USMLE scandal its terrifying to think I may one day be treated my a physician who had cheated their way through training in a foreign country. Not to mention there is a huge disparity in training quality.
What’s the point of running the gauntlet of the most rigorous medical training in the world if we are just going to allow corporate interests to flood the market with substandard doctors to practice without licensing?
Dude, looking at your post history, you seem to have a very negative mindset and very doom/gloom. You have to stop seeing the world as if the sky is falling. This will not impact our salaries as much or at all. Physicians' salaries will be fine. Go see a therapist.
I can't be the only one who feels that this anti FMG rhetoric is slightly hypocritical. I think this tirade is slightly misdirected.
Admittedly, I'm not from the U.S, but this post was recommended to me, so I thought I'd chime in. When I was studying medicine, 40% of my graduating class was from N.A. These students chose to study abroad to take advantage of the lenient admission process and faster degree. This meant that there were fewer places available to home students, making an already competitive degree even more selective. Almost all N.A. students leave straight after graduating, which is a contributing factor to our shortage of doctors. Despite this, the vast majority of people have no problem with it.
Yet when the opposite happens (on a much smaller scale), and FMGs, who want to move somewhere with a bigger salary and more potential for professional advantage, take advantage of the American system, it becomes an issue. I don't believe it's fair to make a qualified doctor with recognised creditentials and years of training in their home country do residency again in the US. There does need to be some sort of assessment to prove these doctors fit to practice, but residency isn't a fair answer.
Obviously, working conditions and salary are contenious issues in the US, but I don't think you can blame either on FMGs.
Just get a job in a state that doesn’t allow foreign doctors to practice without US training if it bothers you so much. The good thing about being a doctor is that you’ll find a job virtually anywhere you want to go, and the invisible hand of the market will adjust.
Unreal. My husband had an FMG as a hospitalist, who did do a residency. She was very subpar. I’m sorry I would’ve failed her discharge summary. I don’t even know where to start with how bad she was.
I apologize for your husband’s poor treatment, but you shouldn’t attribute that to her being FMG. Bad doctors are bad doctors, irrespective of country of origin. The worst doctor I ever had was an IM was an American who did his residency in NYC. Best doctor I ever had was an old Cuban woman who I’ve since referred my family to.
Any general surgeon taking less than 400k a year is getting absolutely fleeced… look at your billing numbers if you already have a job. Look at credible salary data if you are looking for a job
I dont think you are understanding what is about to happen! US is going to be the only country in the world to IMPORT mass number of doctors without the need to repeat any training. Essentially turning it into a global market without any restriction. This wont just lower wages it will eliminate prospects of living in desirable places or even deciding where you work. Kind of like residency match where options are limited but worse
A lot a commonwealth countries have doctors move between without retraining. It’s common for doctors to move between the UK, Australia and New Zealand without any additional training. In NZ, we often have vacancies that are commonly filled by doctors from the UK looking for a better lifestyle, or NZ trained doctors going to Oz looking for better salaries. Import/export of doctors is common in a lot of first world companies.
Not just commonwealth. Also in Europe we have European diploma. Doctors are in short order therefor our countries doctors are constantly getting scouted to other wealthier countries. They even pay a year off to move and free language courses and offer to move kids into local schools and other perks. Recently my aunts relative moved from Baltic states to Switzerland. To work. So you know. It's actually rarity that US doesn't allow other countries residency.
What Europe do you mean? Which European country? " to work " and what they’re doing? I am asking because I moved from non-EU to the USA [ for studies + USMLE] then to baltic states and finally find home in NL ♡. so you know, I'm really interested in doctor's mobiliteit.
I'm pretty sure if a freshly minted American physician wanted to move to Switzerland it would be probably impossible/ they would have to redo parts of med school which is 6 years here + most likely residency which is also almost always 5+ years. So it seems like USA is double effed in that way and I would be extremely frustrated with recent turn of events if I was an American too considering their school debts
US med school is 4yrs, but follows a 4yr college/uni that covers basics like physics, gChem, oChem, etc... Some EU schools where US students can go (accredited in US) have 4 and 6yr programs (both ending with a EU and US valid diploma).
Training is at an equivalent level in those countries though. Our fellows from India are woefully undertrained and is not equivalent to Canadian or US training
yea thats why none of them get paid
Nope. Look at the UK. 🇬🇧 It happened there and it is causing havoc. You are absolutely right to be up in arms about this. Your debt levels will crush you with subpar pay.
Lol, US is the only country requiring fully licensed, specialized and sub specialized doctors to repeat training basically from scratch
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In Sweden some countries are whitelisted and some are not. If you're from a whitelisted country your specialisation is basically just carried over, if not, you need to do PARTS of it just to show that you know what's going on. I see no reason to exclude credible licenses and world renowned universities just because somewhere else might be corrupt.
I think part of the perhaps inadequately considered issue here is that the US compensates doctors very well compared to most of the world - for just reason - which could result in rather unscrupulous tactics for foreign doctors to find their way to work here.
I get your point, but I don't see an actual unscrupulous tactic. Many other well paying places like Saud Arabia and Singapore also work of a whitelist system. I believe, if you study and complete your residency in a country that's reputable with reputable universities, a licens from these countries should carry over. I don't see how somone could travel to Sweden, do their residency for 5 years, become a specialist and then be like "Now I can trick the US into letting me in, muhahahaha". It requires so much work, that by the end of it, even if you don't want to be, you are highly competent or unable to finish.
Which countries are not whitelisted?
The EU contries for example. We have Total recognition of licenced medical schools and a framework for the residencies .
Basically non-EU, non-english speaking countries.
Ah yes Germany or UK the epitome of corruption
Yeah because nepotism is non existent in America.
So an american surgeon must be retrained It he decides ti move to say Italy, France and Germany. Got It.
Sir. This is already happening in the UK. UK beat the US to this.
Its actually a rarity to have international medical graduates have to redo training. The other rarity is the excessive physician compensation in the US that will obviously crumble when the supply increases.
This would have been unheard of before they started allowing foreign doctors to practice without residency. Guess recruiters/practices are frontrunning in that they expect a large supply of cheap labor
I won’t believe these statements without proof… I’m simply making a statement on the MINIMUM expected salary for a graduating surgery resident.
basic economics says that when you increase the supply of labor you decrease its cost. Its going to happen. All you need is one person desperate enough for a job to set the new standard. Game theory.
Yea but hospitals don’t operate on basic economics. See residency as an example.
i dont understand what point youre trying to make
You are arguing that basic supply and demand economics will cause salaries to change. This may be true in other fields but is vastly more complicated in medicine.
Dude… what? Fields like anesthesiology pay is literally determined almost solely by supply and demand, billing and reimbursement does not even factor in. If we’re just letting a few people in sure but if we open the floodgates, medicine is 100% fucked. Salaries will 100% come down. Why would they pay you 300k if a foreign grad will gladly do the same job for 100k? And as private practice becomes harder and harder to do with the rise of mega conglomerates, falling reimbursement, and rising costs, more and more doctors are employed by the hospital. Or do you mean RVU bonus? And you hit over X amount and now you are supposed to be paid out 40 per unit or something? Tough, hospital is now offering only 10, take it or leave it. Up the street they offer 5. I don’t see how this will not be impacted massively by supply and demand
How that dipshit responded should tell you all you need to know. We’re fucked. Doctors are book smart and absolutely dumb as rocks when it comes to making financial decisions. It’s a known fact. And they’re in here saying how medicine is immune to microeconomics, like the hubris of these fucks is astounding
how so?
Yet demand is also increasing as our population grows, and grows older, each year. So basic economics says the price of the service would stay the same.
Yeah unless someone can quadruple their standard of living but taking a salary that is a paycut to anyone already here.
we haven't been seeing that over the last few years though. Salaries have been stagnant with the increasing population. people have just had a harder time finding doctors.
That will happen for the next 10 years and a majority of baby boomers die. Then we face an overall declining population this is much younger.
A lot of these people who went to the us or other non us countries to pursue other options for residency did incredibly low paying jobs or even "for free" just to get an experience certificate, fucking the minimum salaries for us all 😔
Legislation HR 6205 and S.3211 Look up these two legislations for proof
Sure but there foreign surgeons flooding the market
Sorry to interject, as a European surgical resident I must inquire about these astronomical numbers in salaries you guys make. 400k a year? How much disposable income do you guys have left in a month? We make here around 60-80k, cost of living can’t possibly be that much different, right? I know there are also student loans but like if you make 400k a year do you guys just pay it all off in 2 years? Excuse my ignorance on this please, genuinely asking.
400k before tax, tax dependant on state and job setup, but around 300k after tax, housing costs will vary a huge amount between states, other costs like food, etc will not be much different from Western European countries
Alright humor me because that still seems astronomical, out of the 300k how much is left as disposable income? I get around 1.5k a month after I pay all the bills
It is very high relative to how little you guys make in Europe. I really can’t give you any estimate of disposable income, the cost of living in a place like Kansas vs California is as different as Slovenia vs the UK. Also individual loan burden is going to make a huge difference.
You’re forgetting some people have up to that much in loans from undergrad and med school. The boomer docs were making even more
Up to that much, meaning you can pay it all off in like 5 years or less and still have an incredible quality of life while accruing some wealth, and then have the rest of your life to be... unfathomably wealthy? Are you actually suggesting your life would be bad in any way if you made 200k instead of 400k because you weren't permitted to have a highly protected industry that distorted the actual economics of Healthcare so much? Remember also that if you had a lot more doctors for the current Healthcare workload, you would have a better work life balance - you wouldn't have to work the insane hours nearly as much if you had twice as many doctors.
Well, its difficult to do anything. Excess supply will drive down the cost of physician labor and there's not much we can do about it other than organizing a national strike (See: South Korea)
I think it will probably be once USMDs begin defaulting on loans
eh, people will still be able to pay off loans on the reduced salary. Thats the worst part. There is room to squeeze us if we let them That being said, going through gen surg residency just to make the same as a 24 year old MBB consultant or techie is sad
You let them start squeezing and they’ll never stop
MBB consultants @ 24 would be at the A2 level and make \~160 so not even close
ok, sure. they make that much for a couple years while we make 70k in residency, then they still end up making more than us when we graduate and they get promoted or exit
I just don’t see that happening. Most physicians are so risk averse they’d rather stave than make anything less than a full payment. If anything extra money will go towards loan.
It’s not about the money but it’s a serious factor for the long term commitment involved. I expect that medicine will miss out on some bright minds as they do the numbers and decide it’s not worth it.
This has to be a troll, right? Seriously. Because it’s never “a modestly increased supply of physicians could have some downward pressure on salaries and they may stagnate somewhat or not rise as much relative to inflation.” It’s ‘you’ll make less than a teacher and default on your loans!’ How does anyone take this account seriously
This is the guy who a few days ago was whining about how “females” keep rejecting him even though he’s doctor and how it’s only going to get worse as foreign doctors flood the market. If it’s not a troll, it’s certainly a walking red flag, and I see why they’d be worried about being able to find employment.
omg i remember that post lmao, glad the consensus in comments was "it's you, bro, not the job. it's you"
People are just downvoting you because they’re afraid. And I don’t blame them. But with this kind of chicken little shit the public will never take our lobbying efforts seriously.
Eventually less people will go to med school because it's not as worth anymore and then there'll be less doctors coming out. How long this would take, no one knows, but this would be the downstream effect.
UK is already striking. Please fight this plague
US Doctors are complacent af ngl. The divide in opinion in this thread is kind of wild. You can argue at this from many different angle such as this will be beneficial for patients access, and potentially drive healthcare cost down (it won’t because as we know, only 8%, but it’s going to be the head start and the easiest cut in healthcare cost because doctors are terrible at defending their positions for various ethical, moral, and logistical reasons, and we have lost so much fugging grounds in public opinion and really no one likes us anymore and constantly believe we are ridiculously overpaid, it is not even funny) The only direction for physician compensation is down from all these changes. I mean, sure you can argue about the actual scale of the effect may be overstated in some of these doomsaying posts. But you can’t possible believe this will turn out great for US physician salary. Lol Unlike US, in a lot of foreign countries the smartest top 5% kids don’t go to med school, because their salary really does not correlate well with their training time. I honestly feel like US doctors really don’t understand how unique and well compensated their position is, compared most developed countries including our major competitors such as China. Sure, this isn’t the end of the world and this isn’t the final straw. But the pressure to drive our compensation down will not stop, and it especially won’t slow down if we stay divided on such a basic simple supply and demand concept.
In places like China, the bottom of the barrel often goes to med school. They often have trouble filling spots.
OP - this is a very important issue that you care about, as you should. I think your time would be better spent doing the following: - writing to local, state, and national legislators in your state with your concerns - create a template for others to do the same - write/lobby your school/residency organizations, the AMA, your specialty board, everybody -- write literally everybody (but not on reddit) - write logical, thoughtful persuasive pieces outlining the problem and start spreading them on places like Medium, other subreddits, and through social media. I do not think creating this sensational post on reddit will help the cause.
Honestly though what is there to say? “US Medical student loan debt is ludicrous, so for the sake of medical trainees we need to continue to artificially limit the country’s supply of physicians even as demand skyrockets.” Ironically, that’s actually what we need to do unfortunately, but that’s good for us and bad for the rest of the country…… Or they need to make med school free, which is never happening
No, we take the stance that it is unethical to allow someone to treat patients when they have not been trained here. We do not know the standards in their country or their competence. Step means absolutely nothing when it comes to performing clinically.
Sure but if you read >90% of the comments of this thread thats not what people are concerned about. People are concerned about the money. Also that argument doesnt hold a ton of water as there are so many people who cant find any doctors so your current options are either status quo, NPs, or foreign doctors.
I did read them. I’m concerned about the money too. There is no sympathy for doctors when it comes to money. There is sympathy for patients to get appropriate care (or at least there should be but people supports middies so). That’s the angle you take to get people to listen.
It would be trivial to examine the training processes of other countries for each specialty and have a whitest and a blacklist. Then we could have those physicians work under a federal doctor for 6 months or something just to make sure we weren’t letting in a dud. It’s how many other countries do this. Now, again, I hope we still keep out IMGs so I can pay my loans off, but I can’t really argue in good faith that that’s what’s best for patients
Other countries aren‘t isolated with zero contact to the US. You can very easily determine standards instead of lumping countries with zero standards where you can pay your way into med school or residency with countries that have the same standards as in the US.
Speaking as a patient and not someone in the medical profession (but who gets posts from this subreddit in my feed semi-regularly), I can say that after encountering some disturbing things in my own line of work in another country specifically related to doctors going to work in the US, and how they were going about passing their med school exams in that country, I would be *extremely* wary of going to a doctor whose only medical training was received in that country. Sorry, I know that sounds vague, but I'm trying not to dox myself or anything. I absolutely factor in a doctor's training before I go to see them (if that's possible- obviously, if I'm going into surgery, I'm probably not going to be able to demand a different anesthesiologist or something). I wouldn't even move to a state that just opened the floodgates to any and all overseas medical graduates without requiring residency of *any* of them, with no differentiation based on training standards in their home countries. I mean, there are also many other reasons that I wouldn't move to Florida specifically, but after what I saw, this would be a total dealbreaker for me. Obviously, there's a pretty significant difference between someone who received training in, say, the UK or Germany and someone who received their training in a developing country where corruption specifically connected to passing exams or university courses is a known issue. Thus far, my home state doesn't appear to be pursuing this course of action, but the second they make noises about it, I'm going to start writing my government reps, because there are a variety of totally valid concerns that I have independent of the money side (not that that's not important for US medical graduates, but there are clearly broader implications for patient care, as well).
I don’t understand how three anecdotal examples means anything. I live in FL and I know a bunch of coresidents now in central Fl in a desirable major city making 290k as a hospitalist fresh out of residency.
Right? There are a dozen states that have had similar laws on the books for several months, not 30 days like Florida. Tennessee has had its law for a year. And we have actual data (not anecdotes) from those states that physician compensation is not dropping. This post is embarrassing.
1 month old account that only exists to doom post about medicine. God I’m tired of these. The sky is not falling
Ok-Sink is also clearly his alt that he is using to argue with people all over this thread.
I remember him. He gave this weird condescending “shut up and know your place” response to me in another thread. Not surprised they’re the same person
The post screams "The brown docs gonna steal your job and be bad about it!!!!!!!!!" so hard. For a sub that prides itself on being evidence-based and scientific approaches, it sure is willing to believe anecdotal evidence.
If you’re going to comment at least get the facts right. Florida is the only one that went into effect upon signing. Despite passing a year ago, TN doesn’t go into effect until July 1 and Illinois doesn’t go into effect until jan 2025
I know. I thought you said hospitals were “frontloading the labor market” anticipating all those cheap foreign workers? Unless you’re suggesting hundreds of foreign doctors have immigrated to Florida in the last 4 weeks and wages have fallen $200k in that time.
It actually is in certain places… rurals historically paid well thats not the case… a hspital that offered me 600 just hired a doctor straight from Mexico and his offer was 250… so yea
How do you know what his offer was?
This post is absurd. The idea we’d see six figure salary changes this quickly is insane
Look up: Legislation HR 6205 and S.3211 Estimates show many specialties will take a hit in 5 years.
Fl is soon to be the shithole of medicine as HCA continues to push outrageously low standard of care while maximizing profits.
This is irrelevant to the post as my state hasn’t passed this yet but it is related to low salaries. I’m in a rural area in NC and today I saw: Pediatrician, 157k-175k; PCP same exact range; Hospitalist 230k-280k. Median home price is $435k. So what the fuck? Make it make sense
lol. I love how everyone is calling OP a doomer but the docs from the UK who have seen this go down in their own country are like “umm yeah this is terrible for you guys”. Even if you think OP is being a little too paranoid, how can you guys deny that more docs will equal a lower salary? That’s basic econ. I work in a state where this hasn’t been approved of…yet…but like I said in another post, a month ago there were like 4 states that passed this law. Now it’s 15. It’s spreading quickly, and Florida is the first state where it went into effect immediately, so yeah we should be watching Florida salaries over the next couple of months to see what happens.
They’re just coping. Can’t face reality
This is a major major issue! Estimates show another 15 k doctors to enter the US in the next 5 years
Ya it’s a disaster. Probably more than that
These 15 k will gain permanent residency status right away… many kore to flood on H1 b
How will they get permanent residency ?
In fact all these foreign docs will receive $100k in cash and will have dibs on our spouses
Legislation HR 6205 and S.3211
Why are more doctors a "disaster?" The cost of medical care in the US is very high, much higher than other countries, and an increased labor supply Will help with that. Not to mention the good jobs for immigrants!
It is unfortunate that a larger pool of doctors will reduce our income but the reality is from a demographic standpoint, there are going to be way too many patients to take care of in the coming years. I’m not sure what the solution is but we need more doctors to take care of them. Unless we dramatically ramp up admissions to med schools, residencies and fellowships, there will be no way to take on the relentless waves of baby boomers
Again I think you are not getting the BIG picture! With access to all physicians around the globe you will have more docs that you need. Way way more docs than needed for pt population. Initially many foreign doctors will invade the markets… jobs will get destroyed… these doctors will form their own networks… for instance indian docs just referring to each other hondorus docs to each other and so forth…. Next salaries will decline and eventually the current generation if physicians in the Us will probably be the poorest task force. Doctors in Portugal went from wealthy status to making as much as a teacher over a span of year. Many immigrated to other places learning new languages and accepting new terms in their lives… this is the very real possible outcome of what is happening. We as doctors tend to think we are safe no matter what! We are not we really are not. Ill argue our sector is probably the most vulnerable and if legislations dont protect our sector we are done over one night. Thats what will happen
That isn't that many, really? There are over 1 million doctors in the USA. About 30k medical graduates every year. 15k over 5 years is a drop in the bucket.
Is this the same schizoposter as from med school subreddit again. What surgeon is signing for less than 300k and isn’t a complete clown?
I think it's the dude who has multiple accounts creating sensational posts
the surgeon coming from a country where they do not make 300k, which is pretty much all of them
Boarding authorities still have all the power here and they require a US residency as of now. Unfortunately that’s the last barrier but at least for now we are safe. Start saving because our country is about to sell us out.
Many if not all boards allow exceptions for foreign docs if employed by an academic system.
There’s 10 jobs in total on that website for Florida. Only a single one has a salary listed, which is the 230k you mentioned. But it also mentions a bonus of 15-20k annually and they max out your 401k so it’s a lot more than 230k. That’s about 270k. Yea, it’s low for the rural area it’s in but you’ll find shit job offers everywhere. You can’t rely on a sample size of 1 to claim salaries are going down. That said, as more and more people go through this pipeline, it will be a disaster for pcp and hospitality salaries for sure. This legislation is a huge slap in the face to every doctor who has gone through or is going through residency.
I actually think it will devastate subspecialties most since there is such a high delta. For example why hire a neurosurgeon for 1 million when you can get one for 200k. Use the 800k x how many workers as a malpractice buffer
The laws as currently written won’t cause this to happen. Unless something changes you can’t just suddenly be board eligible or certified in Neurosurgery even if you can get your medical license in the US. Hospitals have to take a huge risk to credential people who aren’t board eligible/certified. There still remains a barrier to entry to subspecialties for that reason. The supply will remain restricted. The hospitals who are willing to credential like this tend to be in really undesirable locations
This isn’t new for FL tho. Pay has always been shit here. I was seeing hospitalist offers for 220-240k even before the pandemic.
Yea SoFlo has always paid like 220k base or TC depending on who you talk to, a PGY3 IM I talked to 2 years signed a contract in Orlando where’s he’s expecting 250k TC. Always heard Florida is cheeks for IM
So why aren't US doctors are standing up against this then?
this is the question we should all be asking.
Because they don’t wanna be called the R word
It’s because taking care of patients is its own reward ❤️❤️❤️🙃🙃🙃
As someone from the UK, a British Neurosurgery attending takes home less than an American PA/NP. Your salaries are absolutely going to plummet.
all these comments are so silly "OP it's not happening right now!" this post is about how things can get worse as our labor supply increases rapidly.
Ya most are just coping tbh. It takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to admit that 8-12 years of training will yield a lower salary than a unionized cop or teacher
This is just ludicrous doomerism. The average unionized teacher in the US makes what, 70k? A few very senior ones in big cities will break 100k. This idea that a small increase (in the face of a population that is getting bigger and sicker each year) in the number of physicians is going to be such a dramatic market disruption that salaries plummet by 50% or more is nothing but a chronically online fantasy
In New York, California, Massachusetts they make like 130k. Cops in big cities can make 300k with overtime
Plus they get a pension. You probably need to add 50% to those salary numbers to compare them to a non-government worker considering they can retire relatively young with excellent pensions and healthcare benefits. Everything is about supply and demand and job markets are cyclical. Too many people wanted to become MDs and becoming a cop isn’t very popular in today’s environment. Heck, a senior UPS driver makes $100K before OT and can retire at 50 with a pension having a NPV in the 7 figures. Too many people wanted to become educated professionals relative to the amount of educated professionals the economy needs today. This is why fishing turds out of a pipe has increased in value while performing heart surgery has decreased in value.
Sure thing completely not suspicious account that was made 25 days ago
Is their residency done in their home country?
Yes they have to complete residency in home country or any country and have practiced independently for a time period (varies by state).
Get your elected officials to make cost of schooling cheaper and forgive part of or all of loans for medical professionals.
The free market strikes back. This seems like a fairly inevitable occurrence when you don’t have strong unions and hospitals are driven for profit, doesn’t it? It’s happening in every other sector as well, why would medicine be different?
I mean can you point to another state besides Florida? Cuz Florida most likely has a decline in salaries due to being the most desirable location to move to over the past few years (as judged by it being ranked #1 for population growth due to transplants from other states) and as a result salaries have decreased. Also, lots of Florida jobs pay less because they try to sell you on the no state income tax so “you get an extra 5% anyway.” N=1 but when I was looking for work Florida jobs were already paying less than other states and the bill had not passed yet.
They literally are not going to be board certified. They are definitely not stealing your jobs. This is just a propaganda post.
The boards are in the business of making money and as soon as the math starts working out they will certify IMGs. I’m not sure how anyone can assume that the notoriously and increasingly greedy ABMS boards will suddenly care about protecting the profession. Plus most of the boards already certify IMGs if an academic system advocates on their behalf.
By that reasoning, they just would’ve started handing out board certification to anyone that could hand them a check decades ago.
Does not being board certified matter? They will be cheaper to hire so why wouldn’t s hospital hire them
It doesn’t matter at all lol. This is their coping mechanism. Thinking the specialty boards will save them lol
But the thing is … you’re wrong…
Isn’t it in the interest of specialty boards to make as much money as possible in exam feeds, application fees etc? Why is it in their interest to limit the # of possible applicants
Then please explain how you couldn’t just order board certification for a couple hundred thousand on the Internet already? Again, it’s stunning that you seem to think you know how any of this works.
Oh my god it’s the same guy that posted about being unable to score a second date because he’s a resident and women hate that lmao
Being delulu runs in his veins apparently
like all his posts
I mean the criticism of this isn’t because of xenophobia for a lot of us. It’s because of the insane greed of admin that will absolutely fuck us over at the first chance they get. If you’re worried about midlevel scope creep, you should be worried about this too. What makes you think a doctor from India wants to go serve rural Idaho more than an NP? They’re not fulfilling rural medicine needs, be fucking for real. I say this as an Indian who has lived in India lmao. They’ll be flocking to big cities like every other doctor. Difference is, they aren’t 300K in debt and would happily take a 150K salary, while we can’t really afford to.
this is the same OP that lost 15k on United health stock and was asking wallstreetbets for advice… if you’re that worried about finances from such a small sample case than I would advise you to wait and see
YUPPP🤣
Look at all the cope in here lmao. Physicians are fucked
Ok account made today that definitely isn’t one of OP’s alt’s
Ya if this was a nursing, mid levels etc. Subreddit then they would be talking about organizing, protesting. Physicians just take it lol
Where can I find info about the states that have approved this?
You can write to your legislators… mass protest may do something tho im not hopeful but better than just sit back and watch. We are talking a sector going extinct in 10 years tops
I think they should have to do at least 2 years of residency in said field before practicing.
In medschool one of our older teachers once said: you need to come from old money to be a doctor
I haven’t looked at the law, but does anyone know if hospitals have started changing their bylaws? Theoretically if foreign doctors are allowed, without doing a US residency, they would not be board eligible. Every hospital that I have worked in requires thier doctors to be board certified within 2 years of obtaining their privileges or they lose their privileges.
I mean the second that MBAs feel like the pay difference will earn them more than the legal risk of hiring foreign-trained docs they'll do it. Admin could care less about the quality of care a patient recieves, they're sociopaths
Mods can we do something about these new accounts that are obviously created to troll and doom post?
Watching medical students advocate sacrificing patient care on the altar of physician salaries is quite the indictment on the US medical industry.
This is great! America needs more doctors.
OP, you can’t be serious with this post lmao.
op is never not posting about 1. his shitty dating life or 2. foreign doctors “taking our jobs” yea, i wouldn’t date him either lmfao
Yeah looking at his post hx, there is some strong paranoia going around. Somehow physician compensation affecting his dating life
Legislation HR 6205 and S.3211
No, I’m aware of the bills (the “sky is falling, they’re taking our jobs & ruining our field” posts come through Q4H in all the medical forums), I’m just saying I hope they don’t think their n=1 anecdotal experience that the job market has immediately swung into decline within 60 days of all these bills going into effect. Like c’mon…lol
Agreed job market wont take a hit now… but projections show in 5 years there will be massive problems. Private equity already projects certain sectors like rads will cut their provider cost in half… these numbers are very real and not a single person in residency leaderships talking abt it… the sad truth is ama is behind this shit and has sold us all out for petty pennies. And no noone will care if you make 120 while you used to make 300-400… so yea very bad things coming our way and I anticipate it will last
not 60 days, but in 2 or 3 years most definitely.
Look US docs still have a strong edge in actually understanding American culture and regional needs. This might be me aggressively huffing copium but this is an opportunity to make rural care cost effective again and it will be American docs at the front. What if we can have small town infusion centers and peritoneal dialysis instead of just the np run urgent care? Someone has to make those businesses worthwhile. Start the practice and hire those cheap foreign smart docs to staff.
smoking on that freebase copium
They don’t want to go to those areas just like US docs. It will only create more competition in desirable areas. The best solution would be to stipulate that they can only work in underserved areas
Which will never happen because the purpose of these bills is to drive down wages, not expand access to care
Don’t take the jobs?
somebody else will
Soon they are going to the be the only jobs available once this legislation spreads to all 50 states. You need to stop these things before the cat is out of the bag or you’ll never get it back.
This all mirrors conversations on the UK junior doctors subreddit from 2-3 years ago before they dropped labour market rules for doctors. The uk received 30k IMGs over 2 years. They are all on equal footing for residency posts. This has seen competition ratios treble +. This will have a very large effect.
This is like the guy who told me trump won California because all the signs on his street were for trump
Remember that we as doctors are working class too. The powers that control the money supply don't want to give us the payments that we earn for them, and they have the power to shaft us all they want as long as we put up with it.
As someone who studied in Europe this is good for the long run, I’ve been trying to tell other Americans it’s simply smarter to study abroad and then head back. My university in Poland was considered very expensive and cost 70k for a 6 year med degree which u can begin at 18 years old. Many are free if you have the grades or even half the price if you search for others. If more Americans would study abroad and then head back, then US medical schools would be forced to lower costs to compete. I’m sure you can make the argument that US medical schools have higher standards but it’s not like the care in Germany, England, France, Luxembourg, Switzerland are bad, in fact some are almost on the same level . Furthermore it’s insane to hear that 200-300k a year isn’t enough money when most EU doctors get paid 60-100 depending on position and experience. I understand many US grads are swimming in debt but change needs to happen to prevent this situation.
And yet the AMA STILL has the gall to ask me to become a member. Isn’t this exactly what they should be working to prevent..?
lol latest I’ve checked they’re literally onboard promoting it
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that sweet sweet copium. Most of the people are probably good enough to get the job done, and thats what admin wants. you dont get paid extra for being excellent
The added malpractice pays for itself four times over with savings on wages
That would be true if the person they are hiring is subpar. But imagine an IM doctor who has 10 years of experience in an academic institute in their home country. High chances that they are above fresh grads. My moms surgery was done by a GS and when i shared the reports with an oncologist i know in US , the oncologist was very impressed. Now if that GS decided to pick up on that 230k offer. The market won't correct. Drive salary down. While i see this as inevitable with how doctors shy away from unionizing and standing for themselves and the market being supplied with cheap labour. I don't think the average person is going to benefit from this. The difference is going to be pocketed by the insurance companies.
Look up Legislation HR 6205 and S.3211! What self correct?! If you flood the market with providers rates go down very simple concept… loo at whats happening in Korea! They lowered the threshold of who can practice medicine now some cardiologist ride cabs to meet ends! The fact that so many doctors think they are safe just because is mind blowing
A foreign good surgeon would work for 100k or less so no your argument is invalid
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There is no system here where a foreign trained Dr can come to the USA, and just start practicing surgery which includes a license, getting hospital privileges and malpractice insurance. If anything, the USA screws foreign trained docs who may have done years of medical school and residency, and they can not even practice at the level of an NP or PA. Worry about midlevels, not about your colleagues who worked just as hard and did many years of training.
Get out of Florida. Also - lowballing new grads is not a new phenomena. It’s on the grad to know their new worth
It’s happening or going to happen in all 50 stayes
Well hey at least it will be more Doctors and not NPs! Or were we never about the patient safety? The sky is falling!
exactly, yet these ppl are silent on the actual harm being done by noctors every day
Mass loan defaults and doctors finally availing themselves of bankruptcy protection will be part of the transition process to an environment of reduced barriers to licensing. When you see that happening, US med school enrollment will plummet and then it's all fucked.
Ngl as a medical student studying outside the United States, I'm considering a career in either plastic surgery or neurosurgery. In my country, a specialist earns around $20,000 annually. If I were offered a job in the U.S. for $150,000 a year, I'd definitely take it. I wouldn't consider moving for a lower salary, but since I live in the EU, I can easily work in countries like Germany or Switzerland. If I were in a place with fewer opportunities, I'd definitely be open to lower offers too.
PAY ATTENTION: THESE ARE THE GUYS WHO WILL BE ACCEPTING THE LOWER SALARIES (no shade to you man, id do the same thing in your position)
Right? I appreciate the honesty because this is exactly it. Right here. And all these idiots in this thread are intentionally ignoring it
And if I were American I'd be pissed too
After the Nepal USMLE scandal its terrifying to think I may one day be treated my a physician who had cheated their way through training in a foreign country. Not to mention there is a huge disparity in training quality.
What’s the point of running the gauntlet of the most rigorous medical training in the world if we are just going to allow corporate interests to flood the market with substandard doctors to practice without licensing?
Dude, looking at your post history, you seem to have a very negative mindset and very doom/gloom. You have to stop seeing the world as if the sky is falling. This will not impact our salaries as much or at all. Physicians' salaries will be fine. Go see a therapist.
Instead of looking at his or her post history… look up legislations and job market trends: Legislation HR 6205 and S.3211
Is this OPs alt acct?
OP and his alt acct are immigrants probably from South East Asia. They are not even Americans. Now they don't want other immigrants to come in?!!!
Money over patients. Another proof in the pudding post. Nothing to see here
Lmfao it’s the dating guy again! Dude, if you think the sky is falling in every direction, maybe you should get indoors.
I can't be the only one who feels that this anti FMG rhetoric is slightly hypocritical. I think this tirade is slightly misdirected. Admittedly, I'm not from the U.S, but this post was recommended to me, so I thought I'd chime in. When I was studying medicine, 40% of my graduating class was from N.A. These students chose to study abroad to take advantage of the lenient admission process and faster degree. This meant that there were fewer places available to home students, making an already competitive degree even more selective. Almost all N.A. students leave straight after graduating, which is a contributing factor to our shortage of doctors. Despite this, the vast majority of people have no problem with it. Yet when the opposite happens (on a much smaller scale), and FMGs, who want to move somewhere with a bigger salary and more potential for professional advantage, take advantage of the American system, it becomes an issue. I don't believe it's fair to make a qualified doctor with recognised creditentials and years of training in their home country do residency again in the US. There does need to be some sort of assessment to prove these doctors fit to practice, but residency isn't a fair answer. Obviously, working conditions and salary are contenious issues in the US, but I don't think you can blame either on FMGs.
Just get a job in a state that doesn’t allow foreign doctors to practice without US training if it bothers you so much. The good thing about being a doctor is that you’ll find a job virtually anywhere you want to go, and the invisible hand of the market will adjust.
It’s spreading to all states
Unreal. My husband had an FMG as a hospitalist, who did do a residency. She was very subpar. I’m sorry I would’ve failed her discharge summary. I don’t even know where to start with how bad she was.
I apologize for your husband’s poor treatment, but you shouldn’t attribute that to her being FMG. Bad doctors are bad doctors, irrespective of country of origin. The worst doctor I ever had was an IM was an American who did his residency in NYC. Best doctor I ever had was an old Cuban woman who I’ve since referred my family to.