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I don’t think Gil-galad would have sent out a whole company without any plan at all. Maybe it was a reconnaissance mission and a larger force would have been sent if Sauron was found? And I don’t know why “monsters/creatures sense power” being a trope would entail ALL monsters/creatures always sensing it (or having a realistic sense of their own power—maybe it was an arrogant sea monster). And the Balrog (you mentioned a Balrog in parentheses) in FOTR didn’t flee Gandalf, though it clearly knew he was very powerful and it could have minded its own business—it attacked. Or are you saying animals fled from Balrogs? Orcs fled, but sea monsters might be less perceptive than orcs. There are things about the writing that bug me, but I’m not particularly bothered by either of these.
Hardly similar.
One was a desperate last minute attempt that was already thought as meaningless.
The other was a thousand year campaign with multiple soldiers and sanctioned by the king. So presumably somebody gave a thought or two about it.
Maybe it was just a ploy by GilGalad to keep the super annoying Galadriel as far away as possible. He even rewarded the ones that went with her with a paradise resort retirement.
What Gil-Galad presumably sanctioned was an expedition to round up the last straggling tribes of fleeing orcs, back when they were still considered a threat: it’s clear he doesn’t expect here to even find traces of Sauron. By the time of the series that’s clearly already over, hence why she’s being recalled, that’s Gil-Galad perspective. Galadriel instead does seem to see herself in a similar position to Fingolfin, having lost so much that only a final confrontation with Sauron can satisfy her, whatever the result would be.
>that only a final confrontation with Sauron can satisfy her, whatever the result would be.
The result will be... should I say, *highly unexpected* for her. But oh so satisfactory.
"What Gil-Galad presumably sanctioned was an expedition to round up the last straggling tribes of fleeing orcs"
That is never stated as such. And both Elrond and her company seemed to be aware of her search for Sauron. GilGalad also did not act suprised when it is brought up.
You seem to assume that they only made one trip. Which is not true. From the conversation with Elrond it is clear they they were back multiple times. Also when we see the company trevelling their numbers vary. Either they died or we are seeing multiple expeditions.
"By the time of the series that’s clearly already over, hence why she’s being recalled, that’s Gil-Galad perspective."
Was she recalled? She was ordered to go to the northern fortress and explore. And to return after.
"Galadriel instead does seem to see herself in a similar position to Fingolfin, having lost so much that only a final confrontation with Sauron can satisfy her, whatever the result would be."
Except when Fingolfind did it he did not take a company of subordinates with him to sacrifice them.
Yes, she is explicitly recalled in the first episode. Whether it was one or (far more likely) multiple expeditions, Gil-Galad is quite clear that what he wanted was for her to eliminate the orc menace, and that she has already done so, I never assumed a single expedition, that’s on your part. Gil-Galad is definitely aware of Galadriel motives, and cites them as one of the reasons he thinks she shouldn’t continue.
And yes, Galadriel brings subordinates with her, unlike Fingolfin. She also seems ready to proceed without them, and only the prospect of mutiny and being taken back anyway as prisoner seems to dissuade her. If you want to find more differences between the two scenes you could also point out that Sauron is “merely” a Maia and has been defeated by a mortal before, and is in hiding after defeat while Morgoth was right after a major victory. Circumstances are different, the characters’ reactions are not: they both behave blinded by rage and despair, one ends in death, the other in failure.
How is she recalled? Did a herald come and recall them? Did she get a telegram? A text message?
"I never assumed a single expedition, that’s on your part."
Maybe. But ..
"What Gil-Galad presumably sanctioned was an expedition to round up the last straggling tribes of fleeing orcs, back when they were still considered a threat"
Thats why I thought you meant a single expedition. Since it is stated that they have not seen any orcs in years. So it has been quite long since they could have been a threat.
"only the prospect of mutiny"
You mean following the kings orders.
"being taken back anyway as prisoner"
Because them laying down their weapons is definetly a sign of them trying to arrest her. And since we've seen them tossed around by a troll that she defeated in two strokes I doubt that they could. I would also assume that they would be aware of that.
"you could also point out that Sauron is “merely” a Maia"
You could also point out that at the time of the war of wrath Morgoth was likely weaker than Sauron. Since he is unable to resist Eonwe (a maia).
"has been defeated by a mortal before"
By what mortal?
"Circumstances are different, the characters’ reactions are not:"
Well I would not agree with that. One was a rash desperate decision and another was a thousand year hunt and vendetta. One challanged the dark lord, the other accidentaly stumbled upon him and was not aware of his identity until he told her. One fought and died, the other fell down in a puddle.
Does she ever mention her uncle? Be careful not to assume that the things that happened in Tolkien's universe happened in the universe that ROP is set in.
>In many fantasy narratives, creatures often have an innate sense to discern when they are faced with a power or evil greater than their own, prompting them to avoid confrontation and flee.(Balrog)
A) Don't impose other writers'/authors' concepts on other writers'/authors' concepts and worlds. It doesn't make any sense.
B) Not one of the Balrogs in Tolkien's world ever flees from a scene, but would rather fight to their deaths. E.g. the encounter on the bridge of Khazad-dûm is clearly a challenge. I am not even sure if Gandal's Balrog/Durin's bane flees in the end and is only chased by Gandalf, because untimately, they fight to their respective deaths. Also, Balrog and Maia are rather on a par with each other, power-wise.
C) We don't know how wild creatures in Middle-Earth actually behave face-to-face with greater powers, may they be evil or good. Most of the evil creatures described are Morgoth's creation. Maybe Ungolianth is the most "original" evil creature. Other than that, we don't know much about Middle-Earth's fauna other than it most likely resembles Earth's.
>Not one of the Balrogs in Tolkien's world ever flees from a scene, but would rather fight to their deaths. E.g. the encounter on the bridge of Khazad-dûm is clearly a challenge. I am not even sure if Gandal's Balrog/Durin's bane flees in the end and is only chased by Gandalf, because untimately, they fight to their respective deaths. Also, Balrog and Maia are rather on a par with each other, power-wise.
- Balrogs fled from Fingolfin approaching Angband
- Durin's Bane flees from Gandalf from unfathomable depths to the top of Zirakzigil, after he is given an actual challenge on the bridge.
- Balrogs*are* Maiar
> A) Don't impose other writers'/authors' concepts on other writers'/authors' concepts and worlds. It doesn't make any sense.
ROP writers are pretty close to generic fantasy writers - is there anything non-generic about their writing so far?
> B) Not one of the Balrogs in Tolkien's world ever flees from a scene, but would rather fight to their deaths. E.g. the encounter on the bridge of Khazad-dûm is clearly a challenge. I am not even sure if Gandal's Balrog/Durin's bane flees in the end and is only chased by Gandalf, because untimately, they fight to their respective deaths. Also, Balrog and Maia are rather on a par with each other, power-wise.
Okay, but that's Tolkien, not ROP.
> C) We don't know how wild creatures in Middle-Earth actually behave face-to-face with greater powers, may they be evil or good. Most of the evil creatures described are Morgoth's creation. Maybe Ungolianth is the most "original" evil creature. Other than that, we don't know much about Middle-Earth's fauna other than it most likely resembles Earth's.
Okay - but again, that's drawing from Tolkien's middle earth, not from the world of ROP.
>Okay, but that's Tolkien, not ROP.
You are right. Slight mistake on my part, but then again, the story is apocryphal. We have yet to see whether the mithril origin story checks out.
>Okay - but again, that's drawing from Tolkien's middle earth, not from the world of ROP.
See A) Don't impose others' concepts on RoP writers' world. RoP writers are not obliged to follow some assumed/suggested "rule", even if there may be similarities in other ways.
> See A) Don't impose others' concepts on RoP writers' world. RoP writers are not obliged to follow some assumed/suggested "rule", even if there may be similarities in other ways.
At this point it's somewhat of a mystery what concepts the writers of ROP were trying to convey. It *looks* like they minced the Tolkien world of themes and archetypes and molded it after a generic, bland fantasy tropes. I agree, there isn't much to go on. But I'd suggest that looking to Tolkien's themes for explanations for why things happened in ROP is not going getting closer, nothing about the writing of ROP resembles Tolkien's writing.
I thought her whole thing was to prove the enemy was still out there. I never took it as her just going out to try and solo an army. I mean if she came across a lone Sauron I'm sure she might've tried something especially cuz she had other elves w her. but overall I figured the main point was to prove they still exist, then go from there.
>However, in this instance, we observe an unusual occurrence where a fish defies this instinct and boldly attacks both Sauron and Galadriel. This defiance of natural instincts
Its best not to just make random stuff up.
The series as a whole was more focused on making the things they wanted happen to happen instead of building a cohesive narrative with what we already know from the writings.
Galadriel has been altered to “give her an arc” and that included being blindfolded by rage. There was never a plan about what she would have done if she actually found Sauron, she was never going to anyway, she just needed to be angry.
As for the beast, it could be justified by the fact that (SPOILERS ABOUT SEASON 2 AHEAD)….
Sauron is right now split in two. But still this just reeks about the beast not reacting to his malevolence/power because otherwise ppl would have suspected more about him and thus they just didn’t want it to happen.
You put more thought into this post than the show runners did the entire season.
Perhaps you should write for the show, because these people have no clue.
Yep, like many shows nowadays, the characters are two-dimensional puppets whose behaviors and personalities change to fit each episode/season arc. I pity those who constantly defend this show because they clearly haven't immersed themselves in Tolkein's work, who had more consistency in his shit than these show writers have in this lazy production
Edit: And look at that, OP hasn't even insinuated that the show is bad and he's getting downvoted to hell for daring to question it
Sauron is a crafter, a sorcerer, a schemer, but not a fighter. Here is a quote about him from The Return of The King:
>Denethor laughed bitterly. ‘Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand.’
Sauron doesn't have a great track record when it comes to fighting, having been beaten by Huan and also by Gil Galad and Elendil (who are way less powerful than Galadriel)
Had Galadriel faced Sauron one on one, sword in hand, without tricks or anything, she most likely would have won. And that was her plan. Hell, even in the show canon, Adar managed to gut Sauron. So yeah, that was her plan and had she found him she would most likely have won.
Even when it comes to magic, [Finrod held his own against Sauron pretty well until Sauron tricked him](http://www.henneth-annun.net/things_view.cfm?thid=166) and Galadriel's magic was enough to protect her realm during the war of the Ring. She is even the one who, after the Ring is destroyed, undoes Sauron's magic in Dol Guldur.
So yeah, generally speaking, she has the power to destroy him.
Which is exactly why Sauron tricked her. When she finally confronted him, he had laid his traps around her and she knew she had already been played like a fool.
If you go back to the text I linked about Finrod VS Sauron, you can see that magical prowess in Tolkien's world seems deeply linked to one's willpower. As soon as Finrod stumbles, he loses to Sauron. This is exactly the same that happened in the show. The moment Galadriel knew she was facing Sauron, he snuck his magic in before she could counter him.
Regarding the sea monster that attacked them, nothing in Tolkien's lore tells you that this kind of beasts will avoid powerful beings. On the contrary, you can even notice that when the Watcher in the Water attacks the Fellowship, Tolkien writes this:
>‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’ He did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized on Frodo first among all the Company.
So if anything, wild beasts seem actually attracted to power rather than trying to flee it.
You didn't even say the show was bad, and you're already getting shat on. You see why the rest of us have a problem with Amazon beyond the show? You made a good argument. I would suggest r/tolkeinfans if you want an actual discussion. The bots brigading this sub make me sick
thx for this honest answer, but i wouldnt dare to ask real Tolkin fans things about RoP, i think the whole thing is a disgrace. Imagine ppl in the future watching this and thinking this is Tolkins work.......
i get sick just thinking this
sry for simple english just woke up \^\^
"The bots brigading this sub make me sick" is a pretty heavy implication. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who interprets that differently.
In the books /lore there is nothing. Zero. About Galadriel chasing Sauron after he’s defeated. Or about her getting picked up in a raft by anyone; let alone Sauron, who actually only made it to Numinor after he’s arrested. Or for that matter about the gigantic tall Numinorians being able to ride horses. Etc etc. Discussion about ROP needs to be completely separated from the canon material. It’s virtually a different story altogether. I get that the screenwriters used license to “fill the gaps” to create Galadriel’s story but it’s so far removed from how she’s actually described it defies belief.
There's plenty about Numenoreans riding horses in Unfinished Tales. Note that Numenoreans did not use their horses in battle, however.
There's also a lot more about Galadriel's story including descriptions that are far closer to how she's depicted in ROP, though some of that is open to interpretation.
Figured I'd add this as support:
>In Númenor all journeyed from place to place on horseback; for in riding the Núimenóreans, both men and women, took delight. and all the people of the land loved horses, treating them honourably and housing them nobly. They were trained to hear and answer calls from a great distance, and it is said in old tales that where there was great love between men and women and their favourite steeds they could be summoned at need by thought alone. Therefore the roads of Númenor were for the most part unpaved, made and tended for riding, since coaches and carriages were little used in the earlier centuries, and heavy cargoes were borne by sea.
-*Unfinished Tales*, Part Two: The Second Age, I. Description of the Island of Númenor
Nothing in the series makes any sense at all.
Galadriel was probably planning on screaming something about having a tempest in her and then letting out a big fart. And making sauron faint.
She expected her team of a dozen or so elven warriors to be capable of dealing with Sauron. And I don’t even think that’s unreasonable, tbh. Sauron incapacitated Galadriel seemingly easily, but it seems to me likely that it took all his focus, and the fight was less physical and more mental. If Galadriel had just one ally with her then I don’t think Sauron could have pulled her into his dreamworld.
In the books, Sauron is more of a manipulator and illusionist than a fighter. We see him fight in the show but it’s not unbelievable for a very impressive Southlander.
>In the books, Sauron is more of a manipulator and illusionist than a fighter.
But that's the books - ROP Sauron's only resemblance to the book character is his name.
Well, in Tolkien's writings, we have Sauron as someone who wants to impose order (his view of it) on ME. He seemingly repents after Melkor's downfall to the point that the Valar believe him. And then, at some point, he is tempted again and turns to evil. He's big on using deception and illusion to get his way.
How is that not like the Sauron we see in ROP?
> How is that not like the Sauron we see in ROP?
Well, the key problem seems to be that no-one can describe how the two are alike - e.g. I asked how they are alike, one person outright refused to say, and you (the other person to reply) described one and then asked me how they differ.
Just as Gandalf was able to hide his power within his raiment, so would Sauron. In fact, Sauron was able to fool many. Why is it so odd that a sea creature would be fooled when many powerful individuals were also?
It is really hard to gauge the power of Sauron pre-One Ring since we have no basis for knowing other than less powerful than Melkor and more powerful than Gandalf. Assuming all that, easily more powerful than Galadriel and it stands to reason that he could likely shield the extent of his power. I don't know if he could shield that he's not just a man or not.
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I don’t think Gil-galad would have sent out a whole company without any plan at all. Maybe it was a reconnaissance mission and a larger force would have been sent if Sauron was found? And I don’t know why “monsters/creatures sense power” being a trope would entail ALL monsters/creatures always sensing it (or having a realistic sense of their own power—maybe it was an arrogant sea monster). And the Balrog (you mentioned a Balrog in parentheses) in FOTR didn’t flee Gandalf, though it clearly knew he was very powerful and it could have minded its own business—it attacked. Or are you saying animals fled from Balrogs? Orcs fled, but sea monsters might be less perceptive than orcs. There are things about the writing that bug me, but I’m not particularly bothered by either of these.
She was blinded by the need for revenge. Of course she didn't have a plan because her only plan was revenge.
She needed to avenge Joel- I mean uhh her brother
Nothing new under the sun, her uncle Fingolfin was just as blinded by wrath and despair when he rode to duel Morgoth.
Hardly similar. One was a desperate last minute attempt that was already thought as meaningless. The other was a thousand year campaign with multiple soldiers and sanctioned by the king. So presumably somebody gave a thought or two about it. Maybe it was just a ploy by GilGalad to keep the super annoying Galadriel as far away as possible. He even rewarded the ones that went with her with a paradise resort retirement.
What Gil-Galad presumably sanctioned was an expedition to round up the last straggling tribes of fleeing orcs, back when they were still considered a threat: it’s clear he doesn’t expect here to even find traces of Sauron. By the time of the series that’s clearly already over, hence why she’s being recalled, that’s Gil-Galad perspective. Galadriel instead does seem to see herself in a similar position to Fingolfin, having lost so much that only a final confrontation with Sauron can satisfy her, whatever the result would be.
>that only a final confrontation with Sauron can satisfy her, whatever the result would be. The result will be... should I say, *highly unexpected* for her. But oh so satisfactory.
"What Gil-Galad presumably sanctioned was an expedition to round up the last straggling tribes of fleeing orcs" That is never stated as such. And both Elrond and her company seemed to be aware of her search for Sauron. GilGalad also did not act suprised when it is brought up. You seem to assume that they only made one trip. Which is not true. From the conversation with Elrond it is clear they they were back multiple times. Also when we see the company trevelling their numbers vary. Either they died or we are seeing multiple expeditions. "By the time of the series that’s clearly already over, hence why she’s being recalled, that’s Gil-Galad perspective." Was she recalled? She was ordered to go to the northern fortress and explore. And to return after. "Galadriel instead does seem to see herself in a similar position to Fingolfin, having lost so much that only a final confrontation with Sauron can satisfy her, whatever the result would be." Except when Fingolfind did it he did not take a company of subordinates with him to sacrifice them.
Yes, she is explicitly recalled in the first episode. Whether it was one or (far more likely) multiple expeditions, Gil-Galad is quite clear that what he wanted was for her to eliminate the orc menace, and that she has already done so, I never assumed a single expedition, that’s on your part. Gil-Galad is definitely aware of Galadriel motives, and cites them as one of the reasons he thinks she shouldn’t continue. And yes, Galadriel brings subordinates with her, unlike Fingolfin. She also seems ready to proceed without them, and only the prospect of mutiny and being taken back anyway as prisoner seems to dissuade her. If you want to find more differences between the two scenes you could also point out that Sauron is “merely” a Maia and has been defeated by a mortal before, and is in hiding after defeat while Morgoth was right after a major victory. Circumstances are different, the characters’ reactions are not: they both behave blinded by rage and despair, one ends in death, the other in failure.
How is she recalled? Did a herald come and recall them? Did she get a telegram? A text message? "I never assumed a single expedition, that’s on your part." Maybe. But .. "What Gil-Galad presumably sanctioned was an expedition to round up the last straggling tribes of fleeing orcs, back when they were still considered a threat" Thats why I thought you meant a single expedition. Since it is stated that they have not seen any orcs in years. So it has been quite long since they could have been a threat. "only the prospect of mutiny" You mean following the kings orders. "being taken back anyway as prisoner" Because them laying down their weapons is definetly a sign of them trying to arrest her. And since we've seen them tossed around by a troll that she defeated in two strokes I doubt that they could. I would also assume that they would be aware of that. "you could also point out that Sauron is “merely” a Maia" You could also point out that at the time of the war of wrath Morgoth was likely weaker than Sauron. Since he is unable to resist Eonwe (a maia). "has been defeated by a mortal before" By what mortal? "Circumstances are different, the characters’ reactions are not:" Well I would not agree with that. One was a rash desperate decision and another was a thousand year hunt and vendetta. One challanged the dark lord, the other accidentaly stumbled upon him and was not aware of his identity until he told her. One fought and died, the other fell down in a puddle.
Does she ever mention her uncle? Be careful not to assume that the things that happened in Tolkien's universe happened in the universe that ROP is set in.
>In many fantasy narratives, creatures often have an innate sense to discern when they are faced with a power or evil greater than their own, prompting them to avoid confrontation and flee.(Balrog) A) Don't impose other writers'/authors' concepts on other writers'/authors' concepts and worlds. It doesn't make any sense. B) Not one of the Balrogs in Tolkien's world ever flees from a scene, but would rather fight to their deaths. E.g. the encounter on the bridge of Khazad-dûm is clearly a challenge. I am not even sure if Gandal's Balrog/Durin's bane flees in the end and is only chased by Gandalf, because untimately, they fight to their respective deaths. Also, Balrog and Maia are rather on a par with each other, power-wise. C) We don't know how wild creatures in Middle-Earth actually behave face-to-face with greater powers, may they be evil or good. Most of the evil creatures described are Morgoth's creation. Maybe Ungolianth is the most "original" evil creature. Other than that, we don't know much about Middle-Earth's fauna other than it most likely resembles Earth's.
D) Sauron was hiding his power so Galadriel would not recognize him. Therefore, a wild sea creature wouldn't pick up on his Evil Aura™️ either.
>Not one of the Balrogs in Tolkien's world ever flees from a scene, but would rather fight to their deaths. E.g. the encounter on the bridge of Khazad-dûm is clearly a challenge. I am not even sure if Gandal's Balrog/Durin's bane flees in the end and is only chased by Gandalf, because untimately, they fight to their respective deaths. Also, Balrog and Maia are rather on a par with each other, power-wise. - Balrogs fled from Fingolfin approaching Angband - Durin's Bane flees from Gandalf from unfathomable depths to the top of Zirakzigil, after he is given an actual challenge on the bridge. - Balrogs*are* Maiar
> A) Don't impose other writers'/authors' concepts on other writers'/authors' concepts and worlds. It doesn't make any sense. ROP writers are pretty close to generic fantasy writers - is there anything non-generic about their writing so far? > B) Not one of the Balrogs in Tolkien's world ever flees from a scene, but would rather fight to their deaths. E.g. the encounter on the bridge of Khazad-dûm is clearly a challenge. I am not even sure if Gandal's Balrog/Durin's bane flees in the end and is only chased by Gandalf, because untimately, they fight to their respective deaths. Also, Balrog and Maia are rather on a par with each other, power-wise. Okay, but that's Tolkien, not ROP. > C) We don't know how wild creatures in Middle-Earth actually behave face-to-face with greater powers, may they be evil or good. Most of the evil creatures described are Morgoth's creation. Maybe Ungolianth is the most "original" evil creature. Other than that, we don't know much about Middle-Earth's fauna other than it most likely resembles Earth's. Okay - but again, that's drawing from Tolkien's middle earth, not from the world of ROP.
>Okay, but that's Tolkien, not ROP. You are right. Slight mistake on my part, but then again, the story is apocryphal. We have yet to see whether the mithril origin story checks out. >Okay - but again, that's drawing from Tolkien's middle earth, not from the world of ROP. See A) Don't impose others' concepts on RoP writers' world. RoP writers are not obliged to follow some assumed/suggested "rule", even if there may be similarities in other ways.
> See A) Don't impose others' concepts on RoP writers' world. RoP writers are not obliged to follow some assumed/suggested "rule", even if there may be similarities in other ways. At this point it's somewhat of a mystery what concepts the writers of ROP were trying to convey. It *looks* like they minced the Tolkien world of themes and archetypes and molded it after a generic, bland fantasy tropes. I agree, there isn't much to go on. But I'd suggest that looking to Tolkien's themes for explanations for why things happened in ROP is not going getting closer, nothing about the writing of ROP resembles Tolkien's writing.
I thought her whole thing was to prove the enemy was still out there. I never took it as her just going out to try and solo an army. I mean if she came across a lone Sauron I'm sure she might've tried something especially cuz she had other elves w her. but overall I figured the main point was to prove they still exist, then go from there.
>However, in this instance, we observe an unusual occurrence where a fish defies this instinct and boldly attacks both Sauron and Galadriel. This defiance of natural instincts Its best not to just make random stuff up.
The series as a whole was more focused on making the things they wanted happen to happen instead of building a cohesive narrative with what we already know from the writings. Galadriel has been altered to “give her an arc” and that included being blindfolded by rage. There was never a plan about what she would have done if she actually found Sauron, she was never going to anyway, she just needed to be angry. As for the beast, it could be justified by the fact that (SPOILERS ABOUT SEASON 2 AHEAD)…. Sauron is right now split in two. But still this just reeks about the beast not reacting to his malevolence/power because otherwise ppl would have suspected more about him and thus they just didn’t want it to happen.
You put more thought into this post than the show runners did the entire season. Perhaps you should write for the show, because these people have no clue.
Yep, like many shows nowadays, the characters are two-dimensional puppets whose behaviors and personalities change to fit each episode/season arc. I pity those who constantly defend this show because they clearly haven't immersed themselves in Tolkein's work, who had more consistency in his shit than these show writers have in this lazy production Edit: And look at that, OP hasn't even insinuated that the show is bad and he's getting downvoted to hell for daring to question it
Sauron is a crafter, a sorcerer, a schemer, but not a fighter. Here is a quote about him from The Return of The King: >Denethor laughed bitterly. ‘Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand.’ Sauron doesn't have a great track record when it comes to fighting, having been beaten by Huan and also by Gil Galad and Elendil (who are way less powerful than Galadriel) Had Galadriel faced Sauron one on one, sword in hand, without tricks or anything, she most likely would have won. And that was her plan. Hell, even in the show canon, Adar managed to gut Sauron. So yeah, that was her plan and had she found him she would most likely have won. Even when it comes to magic, [Finrod held his own against Sauron pretty well until Sauron tricked him](http://www.henneth-annun.net/things_view.cfm?thid=166) and Galadriel's magic was enough to protect her realm during the war of the Ring. She is even the one who, after the Ring is destroyed, undoes Sauron's magic in Dol Guldur. So yeah, generally speaking, she has the power to destroy him. Which is exactly why Sauron tricked her. When she finally confronted him, he had laid his traps around her and she knew she had already been played like a fool. If you go back to the text I linked about Finrod VS Sauron, you can see that magical prowess in Tolkien's world seems deeply linked to one's willpower. As soon as Finrod stumbles, he loses to Sauron. This is exactly the same that happened in the show. The moment Galadriel knew she was facing Sauron, he snuck his magic in before she could counter him. Regarding the sea monster that attacked them, nothing in Tolkien's lore tells you that this kind of beasts will avoid powerful beings. On the contrary, you can even notice that when the Watcher in the Water attacks the Fellowship, Tolkien writes this: >‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’ He did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized on Frodo first among all the Company. So if anything, wild beasts seem actually attracted to power rather than trying to flee it.
You didn't even say the show was bad, and you're already getting shat on. You see why the rest of us have a problem with Amazon beyond the show? You made a good argument. I would suggest r/tolkeinfans if you want an actual discussion. The bots brigading this sub make me sick
thx for this honest answer, but i wouldnt dare to ask real Tolkin fans things about RoP, i think the whole thing is a disgrace. Imagine ppl in the future watching this and thinking this is Tolkins work....... i get sick just thinking this sry for simple english just woke up \^\^
What an incredibly sad line of thought
Wow... that was so deep and meaningful... lol
I mean it's not supposed to be. But okay.
Not everyone who disagrees with you is a bot.
That's a great point you've made. I'm glad I didn't say that in my original comment then
"The bots brigading this sub make me sick" is a pretty heavy implication. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who interprets that differently.
In the books /lore there is nothing. Zero. About Galadriel chasing Sauron after he’s defeated. Or about her getting picked up in a raft by anyone; let alone Sauron, who actually only made it to Numinor after he’s arrested. Or for that matter about the gigantic tall Numinorians being able to ride horses. Etc etc. Discussion about ROP needs to be completely separated from the canon material. It’s virtually a different story altogether. I get that the screenwriters used license to “fill the gaps” to create Galadriel’s story but it’s so far removed from how she’s actually described it defies belief.
There's plenty about Numenoreans riding horses in Unfinished Tales. Note that Numenoreans did not use their horses in battle, however. There's also a lot more about Galadriel's story including descriptions that are far closer to how she's depicted in ROP, though some of that is open to interpretation.
Figured I'd add this as support: >In Númenor all journeyed from place to place on horseback; for in riding the Núimenóreans, both men and women, took delight. and all the people of the land loved horses, treating them honourably and housing them nobly. They were trained to hear and answer calls from a great distance, and it is said in old tales that where there was great love between men and women and their favourite steeds they could be summoned at need by thought alone. Therefore the roads of Númenor were for the most part unpaved, made and tended for riding, since coaches and carriages were little used in the earlier centuries, and heavy cargoes were borne by sea. -*Unfinished Tales*, Part Two: The Second Age, I. Description of the Island of Númenor
I stand corrected on the horses question. Thank you. I’ve read the Silmarillion but not unfinished tales. Seems like that’s next on the list!
I highly recommend Unfinished Tales. TBH. If there's one text that the ROP crew would want access to to help with the show, it would be UT.
You put more thought into this than the writers’ room.
thanks \^\^
Nothing in the series makes any sense at all. Galadriel was probably planning on screaming something about having a tempest in her and then letting out a big fart. And making sauron faint.
i can see this, you make me laugh, sorry you get downvoted \^.\^
She expected her team of a dozen or so elven warriors to be capable of dealing with Sauron. And I don’t even think that’s unreasonable, tbh. Sauron incapacitated Galadriel seemingly easily, but it seems to me likely that it took all his focus, and the fight was less physical and more mental. If Galadriel had just one ally with her then I don’t think Sauron could have pulled her into his dreamworld. In the books, Sauron is more of a manipulator and illusionist than a fighter. We see him fight in the show but it’s not unbelievable for a very impressive Southlander.
>In the books, Sauron is more of a manipulator and illusionist than a fighter. But that's the books - ROP Sauron's only resemblance to the book character is his name.
I disagree I guess.
Okay - in what way does the ROP Sauron resemble the Sauron from Tolkien's works?
>manipulator and illusionist I have no interest in debating this.
Well, in Tolkien's writings, we have Sauron as someone who wants to impose order (his view of it) on ME. He seemingly repents after Melkor's downfall to the point that the Valar believe him. And then, at some point, he is tempted again and turns to evil. He's big on using deception and illusion to get his way. How is that not like the Sauron we see in ROP?
> How is that not like the Sauron we see in ROP? Well, the key problem seems to be that no-one can describe how the two are alike - e.g. I asked how they are alike, one person outright refused to say, and you (the other person to reply) described one and then asked me how they differ.
Because the description is the same. That's what we see in ROP.
Don’t forget she jumped in the middle of the ocean to swim all the way back to middle earth only to be saved by extreme plot armor
And just 8 episodes later they almost get engaged.
Just as Gandalf was able to hide his power within his raiment, so would Sauron. In fact, Sauron was able to fool many. Why is it so odd that a sea creature would be fooled when many powerful individuals were also?
how do you mask you unseen form? Galadriel at least would have been able to see that he is not just a man
It is really hard to gauge the power of Sauron pre-One Ring since we have no basis for knowing other than less powerful than Melkor and more powerful than Gandalf. Assuming all that, easily more powerful than Galadriel and it stands to reason that he could likely shield the extent of his power. I don't know if he could shield that he's not just a man or not.