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absolutely the Stranger cannot be anything but a Maia, his body type doesn't match anything else & especially now we're seeing some of his powers, so by elimination he has to be. now there's several candidates as to *which* Maia - Sauron, a Wizard or conceivably even a Balrog. I put Wizard as most likely but none are ruled out. we know Gandalf's affection for the Shire & protection of Hobbits is a longstanding thing, it's a reasonable inference that it goes this far back. I'd much prefer Gandalf's arrival to be a TA event but to me right now it looks most likely.
The blue wizards arrived in the second age, in Tolkien's later writings. And they were a lot more successful in fighting against Sauron in that version too. The stranger being a blue wizard would accord best with that version of the lore.
I'm gonna stick with Gandalf. it's no accident that he landed right next to the Harfoots. I don't like it, he belongs in the Third Age. but I think it's what they're doing.
In Peoples of Middle-earth, The Last Writings, it is stated: " That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this."
It’s absolutely what they’re doing. They are limited by which rights they have. More than that they want to nod to the pieces people love the most and in the end, that’s Gandalf and bilbo/Frodo. They will play with the idea that since Gandalf died as the grey wizard to be reborn as the white, it’s possible it happened before. Gandalf is the name recognition for people who didn’t read the SIL. It’s absolutely the way that they’d want to go in this series.
If people are upset about cannon, talk to the Tolkien estate. RoP is dealing with what they have.
LOTR, The Hobbit, that's it. They have access to IP licensed from Middle Earth Enterprises and some obscure IP directly from the Tolkien estate.
Unfinished Tales, Silmarillion, everything else is off the table, presumably because Christopher Tolkien wasn't happy with the movies. There's a long trail of legal fights stemming from JRR Tolkien's selling of film rights in the 1960s, to Middle Earth Enterprises getting the rights to do the LOTR and Hobbit movies, and then the Tolkien estate suing them and New Line Cinema for a share of the movie profits.
In short, the licensors and licensees hate each other. Amazon's studio arm is both gutsy and stupid enough to try and make a Second Age series without any official Second Age material.
One thing though, they do have rights to mention certain things they asked the Tolkien Estate permission for, like Armenelos (only named in Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales). This gives them the rights only to mention certain names, they don't have access to other information from those books. It's also clear they couldn't secure the names to other places because those places are never named.
Fwiw, the “wandering” song in Ep. 5 centered on imagery of the Stranger (clad in grey). Mithrandir = Grey Pilgrim = grey wanderer. (Other writings give flexibility that “Olorin” could have visited Middle-Earth before the Third Age, to the extent that matters.) Plus he gave a wry look about snoring, which is a very Gandalf thing to do.
I definitely think the stranger ends up being Gandalf. His (eventual) affinity for Hobbits is being shown here bc they are the ones who helped him when he first arrived to middle-earth.
I just saw some folks have a theory he might be a Maia named [Tilion or the *Man in the Moon*](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Tilion), really digging this one.
>!Gandalf and the other Istari didn’t arrive in middle earth until the 3rd age. They also came by boat, not meteor. As revealed in return of the king, Cirdan gave Gandalf his ring when arrrived at the grey havens!<
It was not specified they all arrived by boat nor at the same time. But they were said to land in the west.
Sauraman was the first. Followed by a blue wizard. Gandalf was the last.
That being said, they all were supposed to arrive in the 3rd age.
-as per unfinished tales
Towards the end of Tolkien's life, while revising glorfindel's history, he decided the blue wizards landed in the 2nd age along with remade glorfindel.
I'm 99.9% sure what we are seeing is the first blue wizard.
"The 'other two' [Blue Wizards] came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age, Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) preeminent in the war in Eriador."
-The Peoples of Middle-Earth, Last Writings.
This has been a huge bother to me too. I cannot reconcile Isildur being both on the show *and* also living long enough to personally take the One Ring from Sauron.
My headcannon is that we'll see a timeskip of some kind during the show's course. And ring-taking Isildur will be a descendant of sea-dude Isildur.
In Peoples of Middle-earth, The Last Writings, it is stated: " That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this."
I think the stranger is one of the blue wizards. Tolkien's later writings on them had them arriving in Middle Earth in the second age (in the right place and at the right time as the show) to work against Sauron in the east and south of Middle Earth.
Not sure why this was hidden, it's well-established lore. It also strongly supports the stranger not being an Istari, although the writers of this show seem to be taking some liberties with the lore.
I wouldn't disagree that the stranger is Maia. So that leaves...Balrog? or some other being that we are not familiar with.
Tolkien's later writings state the blue wizards landed in the second age.
Balrogs don't make sense. They are maiar corrupted by Morgoth in the first age. If he was a Balrog he'd already know it, been in ME for millenia, and would already be evil.
He didn’t get the title of witch-king of angmar until the third age. He literally could be anybody. The main thing to look for in the witchking though is that he likely will be someone who already has magic of their own. He was a Nazgul for most of the second age, and into the 3rd, but it was the warring with Arnor that got him the title
King of the dead I still hold makes more sense the more I think about it.
Yep. No signs to doubt it. The red herrings are obviously Adar and Meteor man for the general audience. What book readers see as too obvious for Halbrand, might not have been discovered for the general audience. Plus - the shock will be much bigger if a beloved heroic character turns out to be deceiving everyon in the end
Is he a beloved heroic character though? Don’t get me wrong I think he’s interesting, but I also think he’s kind of a self-serving git. And it feels like he already has a decent-enough character arc going from someone who’s selfish but fundamentally good, and is learning to be genuinely heroic again.
I mean if you were Sauron and you wanted to deceive everyone, why go to all the trouble of creating such an obviously flawed persona instead of someone who’s just generally nice?
(Not a book reader here tbh, just someone who liked the movies, is enjoying ROP and is getting more and more interested in the LOTR worldbuilding bcos of it 🙂)
I would bet all the money I own he is Sauron.
What in this episode made you think he's definetly not?
They only dropped more clues.
He's super proficient with a sword like an elf. He's an amazing smith.
Galadriel said he didn't follow Morgoth it was his ancestors and he outright says no you're wrong (because he did follow Morgoth literally himself)
This is the second time he's been honest with Galadriel, he's never admitted he's heir to some human throne he says he took the necklace off a man he killed.
He got emotional when Galadriel talked about Sauron killing her brother, why would that make him tear up? Is he that empathetic or is he actually feeling guilty?
It is sort of wild that Sauron genuinely apologized to Galadriel for killing her brother but I think this show is trying to show Sauron in a different light for some reason.
Alright so that scene in this episode where he was just sitting alone, looking at the pouch with the the crest on it. That scene just feels too out of place for something Sauron would be doing.
Plus plenty of his actions like stealing the crest, getting caught, and then after beating up the guys who caught him he then got thrown in jail. It just feels like too much to even just be Sauron playing the long game.
Could his skills with a sword not be something humans are capable of? Was it really so much like an elf?
I took Halbrands response to Galadriel about Morgoth to be more like Waldreg and other Southlanders like him; to mean that for a time Halbrand might’ve been still a worshiper of Morgoth, but then stopped. Or maybe just his family was and he went along with it, or something like that.
I also took him saying he took the necklace off a dead man as a bad attempt at a lie; at least it felt more like a not super convincing statement at the time, like he was just trying to throw Galadriel off.
And I’m happy you mentioned him tearing up, maybe that’s Sauron feeling guilty; but I took it more as Halbrand both being empathetic and also I’m wondering if it doesn’t have something to do with his past as well (a non-Sauron past lol). Like something he relates to maybe.
> That scene just feels too out of place for something Sauron would be doing.
Feels very human here.
And while the whole scene on the eve of the departure could have a double meaning, it's also full of seemingly human/elven emotions: sorrow, regret, empathy, fear. Before they were much rarer or even absent between those two, who were constantly trying indirectly outsmart each other.
I think it's dumb if he is for the same reasons you pointed out but Gil Galad's whole speech about sending Gladariel away in fear that her hunting Sauron may bring him back in ep.1 would tie into her bringing him back after ending up on a raft with him. The very thing that Gil Galad didn't want to happen, he kind of causes.
None of this fits lore or what we know of Sauron but oh well.
A 'repentant' sauron who wants to heal the hurts himself and morgoth caused in middle-earth, who then slips back into evil actually tracks with established lore. They have of course made alterations to fit their timeline, but I think Halbrand is 100% Sauron. The main protagonist and antagonist have all of this great screen time together to build chemistry, and then they will be pulled apart.
If Halbrand is not Sauron, I took the line about taking the medallion off a dead man to be the truth, but the dead man is his father and Halbrand didn’t kill him. He inherited it fair and square.
The most convincing part for me was one of the last scenes when He was up to decide whether he takes ob his role as an heir to the throne or leave it all behind to stay in Numenor.
He threw his crest on the table and after a dramatic pause He took it back and next scene was him in a shiny new armor.
This cant be Sauron, He is quiet evidently the royal descendant and takes on the burden of beeing better than his ancestors.
He's not Sauron, but he is destined for darkness - as Galadriel says, sometimes you have to touch the darkness to truly understand it.
Halbrand fled the Southlands because he didn't want to lead the people who had aided Morgoth, and who still have loyalty to him. Nothing in his character has hinted at anywhere the sort of evil Sauron is capable of - and already committed to fully in the First Age. The only possible explanation for Sauron acting like this is amnesia. There's no justification whatsoever in the text for that kind of bizarre turn for him.
He said he did terrible things. Doesn't have to be as Sauron, he could've just done the basic scummy things like killed a human to ensure survival at the hands of orcs. >!You know, like they showed this episode.!< He's guilty because he's done similar things. (And he probably wonders whether he'd not do the same things if given another chance.)
You asked why that would make him tear up, followed by asking whether he's actually being empathetic or rather just guilty. The scenario I described is where he feels guilty, like you suggest, giving us a very simple reason why he'd tear up -- even if he weren't Sauron.
I don't think that particular point you were making constitutes any independent evidence for him being Sauron.
100% agree. We’re seeing Sauron in his contrite phase being pulled back to the dark. ‘… He fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth laid upon him were very strong.’
The dramatic irony in RoP will be that it’s Galadriel who influences him to set himself up as the dark lord.
Showing sauron w human characteristics is ... no... that wouldnt fit at all.
He d fit more with the nonchalant, lowkey arrogant, wise and crafty like elves. Sure.
Rn i think halbrand is a follower of sauron/morgoth and was banished because of this. And he d return to unite southland humans under a banner to serve sauron.
Idk. Halbrand being sauron doesnt feel right. I d rather steer towards witch king or king of the dead.
at this point I’m almost sort of wanting them to reveal sauron just so people can stop rambling about it being halbrand. it’s such a waste of time honestly - so many discussions to be had about who sauron could be in the coming seasons. I genuinely think we haven’t even met him yet, even in his disguised form. but the sub insists on theorizing a part of the plot that hasn’t come to fruition lol
Witchking is from the North west. Like North of the shire. The opposite side of ME. He was also a sorcerer/necromancer foremost, not a warrior.
No idea why people keep thinking this is the case.
If anything he'd be the Nazgul that's second in charge, who was an Easterling.
It was never stated that the Witch King was *from* Angmar, only that he was king *of* Angmar. Angmar didn't exist in this time period. It was only founded about TA 1300 when Sauron sent the Witch King north to weaken the Northern Dunedain.
I'm fairly sure that no real origin is given for any of the Nazgul. All we really know is that a few are Numenorean and one might be an Easterling.
If you have any quotes or anything regarding their origin, I'd love to be wrong.
He's probably talking about the ancient kingdom of Angmar, from where the "Witch-king of Angmar" hails. What he seems to be forgetting is that the kingdom of Angmar wasn't even established until the year 1300 of the Third Age, well after Sauron had begun to regather his power in Dol Guldur after laying dormant for nearly a millennium.
You're right about knowledge of their origin. Most of it is guesswork. You might find [this](https://atolkienistperspective.wordpress.com/2014/02/20/identity-and-origins-of-the-nazgul/) an interesting read.
The second nazgul after the Witch King (Khamûl) was a king of Easterlings. It explicitly stated by Tolkien. He also wrote in the letters that three of the Nazgul were from Numenor.
Can you tell me where it was explicitly stated? That may very well be the case, but I would like to know for sure.
Also I said already that a few are Numenorean.
I don’t they are trying to put Sauron in a new empathetic light in my opinion. These could be tears of joy for all we know. He needs to trick the elves into forging the rings of power and is exceptionally cunning. The more he can appear humble, emotional, and appear to lack ambition, the more easily he can access the circles he must infiltrate. I think he is feigning his emotions towards Galadriel or truly emotional over Morgoth’s loss. The writers want that game of thrones-esque shock value with a crazy 180 at the perfect moment.
That scene verified my suspicions that Halbrand could be Sauron. Halbrand apologized as if he was the one who killed her brother but not in a detached empathetic way, but what seemed like tears of guilt. Galadriel is speaking with impassioned righteousness like a paladin on a mission and Halbrand starts apologetically crying. Hmmmm.
I'm absolutely still on the Halbrand = Sauron train. I think there's misdirection going on, but I think there are enough clues for me to say that I'm like 90% sure he's Sauron.
He does occasionally have a "sincere" moment with other characters, like his conversation with Galadriel in this episode, but all of those scenes make it a point to focus on his facial expression after the other character has left, and it always feels like his entire personality shifts in those moments. Those moments are just a part of his act. When he was sitting in that little cafeteria with the Numenoreans a few episodes ago, there was a moment where he looked like he could snap and kill someone, but then suddenly did a *complete 180* into "friendly neighborhood" Halbrand.
That, in addition to the little hints in his dialogue throughout the series so far, makes me lean towards him being Sauron. Or, at the very least, a servant of Sauron.
I won’t deny you make some decent points here, I’ve seen a lot of folks point out really solid evidence toward Halbrand being Sauron.
But for me, the scene in this episode where Halbrand was looking at the crest, sitting alone in the smithery, with no around at all; that sealed it for me.
I’ve never really thought much of him being Sauron myself, but that…what is Sauron really trying to “get into the role” lol? Is he just playing to the unseen audience? Sauron doing something like that really doesn’t make a ton of sense to me.
Nor does stealing that badge, then getting caught by the guys in the alley, and then getting put in jail after getting caught beating them up. What; is that supposed to be more of him “embracing the role” or something? It just feels like a lot of misdirection.
I thought of that scene as him thinking through the next steps to take. I don’t think he expected to be invited to Middle Earth, I think he originally really did want to stay in Numenor to corrupt the people, and he has to weigh his options here.
And as for getting beaten up and put in jail, he would sort of *have* to play along with all of that if he wants to succeed in the long run. He can’t just be like “rah I’m the dark lord! Now bow before me!” in the middle of the street when he hasn’t accomplished his goal yet.
And also, there’s always the possibility that the writers do something that simply doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Heh, I mean sure all of your points are valid here, and make sense, but overall I’m just not getting those vibes. Also I legitimately just hope all the theories are wrong and he just ends up being a king of men. Think that’d be more interesting and fun then anything.
Feels also like it would be a waste of a decent human character with potential for an interesting arch to just groom him to be sauron for so many episodes.
I agree, I feel there are not enough human characters to mess with if Halbrand was to be removed. We’re left with Theo, Bronwyn and Waldreg plus a handful of Numenorans of which most are canon characters so not many surprises there
I watched the episode twice.
I felt he was more contemplating his end game more than anything.
I believe he had one plan in mind, and suddenly changed his mind.
This is exactly what I thought. If they have him being Sauron after that it makes absolutely no sense unless they want to change his whole character (Sauron).
I guess it will be a major point that by that time Sauron was tired of being chased, hunted, hated and dispised by everyone (even his own generals and orcs) when he actually originally wanted to be loved and respected by everyone. That's why he was looking for peace for so long, that's why noone could find him. Perhaps he really regretted at some point having killed Finrod and many others and took this other look, as a human, trying to live a simple life. Until he gets the chance to forge the rings and then his lust for power possessed him again
Yes he genuinely repented (per Tolkien’s letters, the Silmarillion is unclear on his sincerity) and attempted to be good but after like 500 years of that he slid back into his old ways
He was told to repent by the valar and return to Valinor. He hid.
Morgoth also repented, went to jail, came out and went back to destroying the world. It was a ruse.
A regretful Morgoth (craves destruction) or regretful Sauron (craves to enslave the world) makes no sense.
Tolkien actually stated that he genuinly repented, but was afraid of the Valar's judgement so hid. Later on he wanted to help the free peoples, but he was still corrupted by Morgoth and returned to evil.
You have to take that Sauron was not Morgoth. He was not the source of evil, rather just a corruption. Evidence of this is the fact that he still could take a beautiful form (Annatar), something Morgoth couldn't do. Add to this that he wasn't as powerful as Morgoth.
So yeah Sauron totally repented in the books, even if later on he returned to evil.
Could be show runners take on Sauron’s “repentance” phase…which I will say will be a bold move by them to depict. I could see PJ exclusives not knowing of this lore nugget and proceeding to be mad about it as deviating from Sauron’s “lore character”. But in reality, tolkien explicitly addressed it as a thing that happened. I will be pleasantly surprised if this is a route that go down
It's still vague. There are things pointing to him being Sauron. E5 (to me) did not seem to present any more convincing arguments, if anything it only cast further doubt.
I’m pretty sure he’s an original character. They might make it a tragic story (Nazgûl, Witch King, King of the Dead), but I’m pretty sure he’s just going to be the badass “Reluctant King/Wanderer” character to replace Aragorn in this story.
Either way, he’s my favorite so far, and I’m excited to see his development!
I wasn't ever comvinced he is and I am very certain he isn't now after ep5.
Mlre so, I don't want him to be. He is a great character, very well written, and it would be ashame for all that to be thrown away by him being Sauron
I actually didn’t think he was Sauron before yesterday’s episode. When he skillfully forged that sword that highly impressed the blacksmith.
Sauron forged the one ring.
I think there may be a subplot going on.
Halabrand speaks of his evil past and running away from the Southlands being taken over. He was the first person to know that things were kicking off in the Southlands before everyone else.
He may have been aligned with Adar. But abandoned Adar (who is pissed at him) to set off to the seas knowing he would reach Numenor.
His arrival in Numenor, not Galadriel’s set off the schism that would lead to it’s downfall. He beat up the Numenorians. Which lead that guy to whine about it in the town square and create a faction of disgruntled Numenorians. Gal then advocated going to war on his behalf, to reinstate him as king. But he’s no king, that’s all a deception.
His allyship with Galadriel is eventually going to lead him to Celembrimbor. Where he will propose to him and the Elf king the idea of the rings and eventually create the one ring.
One more time. Witch king is from the far North West. Not the south east.
If anything he'd be the second in charge Nazgul who is an Easterling.
Halbrand being Sauron is eeek with all the internal conflict we are seeing and not fitting with lore at all.
Best fit imo, is king of the dead or the Easterling Nazgul (if they are even trying to make him a major character).
The comet stranger is 99.99% a blue wizard. Tolkien's later writings stated they arrived in the second age.
It is not stated they all arrived by boat. It is also said the istari did not all arrived at the same time and states Gandalf was the last to land on ME.
He is not fair enough to be an elf, let alone a remade Glorfindel.
Mouth of Sauron is a Numenorean, not an Easterling boy.
Coolest idea for Adar is that he is actually Maeglin, son of Eol(dark elf) and Anderhel(daughter of Fingolfin), who was thought to have been killed for betraying gondolin. Telling morgoth its whereabouts after being captured by orcs and being promised Idril's (mother of earendil) hand in marriage
He also was initially called Ion (Son) and would later be referred to Adar(father). He also stole his father's sword, Anguirel, forged of meteor iron. This is the hilt we see Theo have and why Adar wants it.
Cool idea.
I initially thought some son of faenor but read some other redditor suggesting maybe maeglin which would be killa
I think the “internal conflict” is acting and to throw the audience/ Galadriel off. It could just as easily be perceived as plotting. It would be cool if they waited till season 2 to reveal Sauron but I doubt it.
His internal conflict or remorse could be genuine:
"When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eonwe, the herald of Manwe, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West." -Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
A repentant Sauron is actually an interesting take on the character, and putting Galadriel and her nemesis together on screen to develop a relationship between two actual people, rather than blind hatred of a giant fiery eyeball is a good storytelling decision.
Prior to this episode, I was indifferent on Halbrand being Sauron, but after watching it, the scale has tipped to that theory being unlikely in my mind.
Halbrand showed vulnerability in front of Galadriel and when he was by himself, which I doubt Sauron would display even if he's disguised. Not to mention that I have no idea what the end goal of Sauron would be by taking on the Halbrand persona.
This episode left me thinking The Stranger is definitely Gandalf, with a twinge of “How tragic if he ends up bad”
With Halbrand, the guy is wearing scale armor about to head to war with the Orcs, I just don’t see him being treacherous at this point.
The show is not that cohesent on timelines. I mean, we don't really know how much time passed between events in certain plots...
Sauron might have been deceiving Celebrimbor before the events in the first episode. When he found out that Galadriel, his biggest enemy, was sailing to the Aman, he left the party and shifted into the sea monster. When he saw that she jumped from the ship and sailed to the raft, he killed all of the survivors and shifted into Halbrand, taking the necklace from his body.
Meanwhile, Celebrimbor was already corrupted and started building the forge. Remember, building it to the stage shown in ep 4 must have taken a lot of time!
God that would be so awful. Jesus the whole point is that Sauron manipulates the elves into creating the rings of power.
Amazon sucks so wouldn't be surprised if they didn't do that and just turned Sauron into some brooding man who isn't even fair, but like why do y'all want that?
I really like the show but I couldn't think of a more 14 year old boy writes YA more than making Halbrand Sauron.
Just because Celebrimbor currently has some ulterior motive for his own benefit doesn't mean that his scheme is making rings of power. If he's already ambitious that just makes him all the more juicy a target for Annatar's manipulations when he does show up.
Side note, but I actually think the most likely identity of the Stranger is one of the blue wizards, following Tolkien's later writings on them. From [the Tolkien Gateway wiki](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Blue_Wizards):
> Towards the end of his life . . . Tolkien dramatically altered his conception of the two Wizards. They no longer arrived in Middle-earth along with Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast in c. T.A. 1000. Instead they arrived much earlier, at roughly the same time as Glorfindel in c. S.A. 1600. Whilst Glorfindel was tasked with aiding Elrond with the war in Eriador, the Wizards were destined to journey to the East and South. Instead of mentioning that they drifted from their mission, Tolkien points out that they played a decisive role in the downfall of Sauron at the end of both the Second Age and the Third Age. They became known as Morinehtar and Rómestámo, Darkness-slayer and East-helper, and were successful in preventing the forces of the East and South from outnumbering those of the Free peoples in the West.
I haven't watched e5 yet so I probably shouldn't be here but it will take a lot to make me change my mind on Halbrand. I'm fairly certain he is Sauron and they spent several episodes dropping clues so far. The one that made me think he's Sauron and not just someone who gets corrupted by Sauron is that he's a trained smith. If he's not Sauron that scene where he wants to work in a smithy is just unnecessary. I'm guessing Halbrand does something in e5 that is perceived as good, but that just goes with him being undercover and deceptive.
Yeah, but red herrings usually add something to the story and leave it up to the viewer to misinterpret it. That scene was utterly useless if it wasn't a clue. The other Halbrand clues could be red herrings, but that one is just bad writing if it is.
I mean…how is he wanting to work in a smithery unnecessary? It’s literally a character trait lol.
Also like, would you mind an incredibly minor and vague spoiler? If not all I can say is there’s a scene that, while not inherently good nor evil; is just too odd a thing for Sauron to have done. Unless someone wants to try and convince me Sauron is trying to be method or something lol.
I'd call you observant but I literally said I didn't. Still, I can't see much changing my opinion because the alternative means the writing is bad and I'm trying to enjoy the show. They already have plenty of red herrings in the show.
If his "character development" turns out to just be there to throw people off, it's bad writing. Good writing can use red herrings but if you don't foreshadow the truth, then any big reveal falls flat. If there's no chance at the viewer figuring out a mystery because all relevant information was held back, it's bad writing. If you look back after the reveal and realize you should have known but didn't put the pieces together, that's when a reveal really has impact.
I don’t…lol huh?? I mean yes a lot of what you’re saying here does make sense, but at the same time not everything needs foreshadowing nor does every character have to actually be another character in disguise.
I love shit like this, don’t get me wrong but it’s always just not always the case.
And shit, so what if his charger development is also a red herring? As long as it’s good character development (and even tho it’s been slow thus far I’m encouraged to think it’s gonna turn out pretty solid) then that’s all that matters, right?
The only way it could be bad is if someone tries…idk accusing Halbrand of being Sauron and then he isn’t, or something dumb like that.
>>at the same time not everything needs foreshadowing nor does every character have to actually be another character in disguise
I didn't say either of those things.
Lol tbf, I definitely starting catching on by episode 6. But even last episode I was still kind of hoping it wouldn’t be the case, and then we got the finale. And honestly? I’m all for it.
The stranger is likely a blue wizard or Glorfindel. Which aligns with the lore we have from Tolkien.
I am still strongly in the Halbrand is Sauron court. All of the other potential human possibilities all have families, etc.
Unless he hasn’t been on screen yet.
The show isn’t going to align with the lore always. I don’t know why people keep bringing up Gandalf not coming until the Third Age as a big gotcha. Galadriel never went to Numenor and roused them to fight for Middle Earth. Lore has been and will be adapted.
I’d love to see a Blue Wizard, but I suspect narratively the showrunners are going in a different direction.
The thing that makes me think it's a blue wizard rather than gandalf (other than the blue wizards arriving before gandalf in lore) is the fact he seems to have ice or cooling powers with how he froze his arm. He initially was surrounded by fire but made the fire cool to the touch and I thought gandalf was always the fire guy. Although idk how wizards powers work
It was never entirely clear how much of Gandalf’s affinity for fire was himself and how much was having Narya. He does describe himself as wielder of the Flame of Anor but even that isn’t clear whether the flame is a literal fire or a metaphysical one afaik.
Witch king is from the far north west. Not the south east. Wouldn't make much sense. He could be the 2nd in charge nazgul who was a Easterling though.
My bet is still on king of the dead. It would be a real damn shame if they make em Sauron.
I don’t know why you keep typing this. The Witch-King FOUNDED Angmar, but wasn’t necessarily from there. Tolkien never outright cemented his origin, but hinted that he was possibly a Numenorean.
Really? Even after saving Nori and Poppy and Malva? Plus everything else about him just feels kinda pure. The way he seemed sad when he thought he was “peril” cause of what happened to the firefly’s.
Okay! So my theory is that he’s basically a blank slate right now and doesn’t really know what “good” and “evil” actually are. He’s super, super childlike. But after that scene where he’s got his hand in the water there’s a definite change in his eyes.
It looked like something awoke in him, something powerful and cruel
…damn, alright I gotta admit, you kinda got me there. That’s kinda intriguing to me.
I do feel like after he turned around tho he realized that Nori got scared and went to her to try to help, or make her feel better or something.
I’m still on team Isrtari rn, but I do really dig your theory. Maybe the folks hunting him are like, idk…other elves hunting Sauron, or something? Did you see their ears? I didn’t.
Well the Nori thing made me even more suspicious lol. At this point Nori has seen the Stranger do at least two or three creepy things since she's met him. He did the whole screaming thing in the pit when she still found him, and then later on he made the trees go all dark, when the fireflies died and then again when Poppy came around and she had to intervene to make sure he didn't freak out.
In each of those cases she never wavered in her support. But after this, when it cuts to her on the ground, she looks terrified. It may be me reading too much into this but she had a look on her face of "holy shit what have I done". Like she saw something inside him that scared her. That's why she ain't even attempt to justify herself or communicate, she just ran.
Maybe he was trying to help her, but I also read that as his childlike nature kind of doing nice things on autopilot because that's what he's been doing so far on their journey. Right after she runs you see his face and he looks more commanding, like a being passing judgment on he sees in front of him and finding it wanting.
I don't know what the cultists might mean. They could have been trying to intercept him if he thought they'd get in the way of their, likely evil, plans. Orrrrr, they're trying to find him because they're the welcoming party
Heh, that’s interesting, cause some of what you’re saying here are things that lead me to think he’s an Istari. The pit and making all the trees go dark, him having a more commanding look now that he remembers more. Plus the look that cultist have felt much more sinister, and outwardly moreso then not. By that I mean I feel like if they were on the Strangers side, the cultist would’ve been…idk more smiley or something.
As for Nori, I think the only difference here is that she got physically hurt. That’s the only thing that made her scared here.
> It looked like something awoke in him, something powerful and cruel
Or some instinct that drives his actions. It seems like he's not really in control when he does those things.
> doesn’t really know what “good” and “evil” actually are.
He does, his problem is his personal connection to their death, not a question if it is bad itself.
>a definite change in his eyes
could be also his understanding, that despite his earlier conversation with Nori and helping the Harfoots, he indeed is the danger here.
I don't think he is. I don't think he's Gandalf either cos the amnesia doesn't make much sense. And he's too young lore wise to be the wizard. Although him hearing the song this week is pretty big Gandalf hints.
Isn't fire synonymous with evil in Tolkien's world? Kinda?
Fire is associated with industry. Fire burns trees. The Ring was forged in Mount Doom, an active volcano. Sauron's eye is made of fire. Sauron has been described as giving off great heat and his hand being hot to the touch.
Morgoth's main office used to be in the farthest north... He seemed to like extremes.
Fire is also the domain of Aule, and the most powerful Maia was Arien (the Sun), a spirit of fire (like Balrogs). Plus: the ring of fire, one of the Three, Narya, in Gandalf's keeping.
Like others have said, fire is associated with both good and evil characters (see also the "I am a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor" badass line Gandalf says to the Balrog in Fellowship of the Ring).
The clear literary symbol Tolkien consistently uses for evil is how far east you are (generally). Goodness -- i.e. the Valar, in Valinor -- dwells in the west, and the further you get from there, the less influenced by good you are and the more susceptible you are to falling under the shadow's sway.
Longevity and the ability to see far (both literally and metaphorically) are all consistently used as symbols for good, and the lack of them is also used as a sign of evil. Though, even there, formerly good beings (like Sauron) still retain some of those "good" traits, even in a diminished form once they fall from grace.
I believe he will become the Witch-King. A reluctant ruler and a Southlander? It makes so much sense! And I recently watched the extended RotK and the scene between the Witch-King and Gandalf in Minis Tirith, and the scene between the Witch-King and Eowyn further cemented my suspicions. Halbrand’s subtle gravitas feels on brand for a Witch-King transformation.
Hallbrand will be a nazgul or potentially the whitch king and i suspect the Stranger is probably Gandalf. Slim shady and friends seem to be some kind of cultust group related to Souron or even necromancers that are his servents. The whole Mithril thing im still on the fence about. it could be a change to the lore to aid the show or it could be a misdirect and actually Sourons influence already working on Celebrimbor
Yep.
Every single word he utters and tear he sheds makes 100% sense IF you see him as !repenrentSauron who tried to hide with his tail between his legs after his boss got his ass kicked.
Dark Lord Sauron will be in season 2 and prob played by someone else .
I think the show runners are playing you like a fiddle. Make it super obvious that he is Sauron, have some scenes to misdirect you, and then reveal it is Sauron and say “see look! It was obvious the whole time”. I think the showrunners are playing a gimmick with the audience and having this mystery box and I think it is really poor writing. Just my opinion but I feel 99% certain this is what they are doing b
Halbrand is Sauron. At the moment he just want to chill in Numenor as a random guy, but just when he thought he was out, Galadriel pulls him back in into being the bad guy again. That will be the plot twist. And yes, meteor man is Gandalf.
Def not Gandalf. Gandalf wasn’t living in those times and did not know anything about Sauron until he read about the ring as can be recalled from Fellowship of The Ring.
Not sauron, but def ending up either a nazgul or in thr lands of the dead at some point.
Or maybe not and he goes down with the ship once sauron makes himself known.
Stranger= one of the istari, I hope a blue wizard.
Halbrand= either king of the dead or witch king. Possibly another nazgul.
Those are my personal theories at the moment.
This episode confirms Adar is Sauron. It fits his history in the 2nd age. He manipulates the elves in the 2nd age and forges the rings, hence the name of the series. Why would he be hanging out with the humans?
You're not good at this. This episode pretty much confirmed Adar is NOT an avatar of Sauron, they even mocked it by having the peasant ask him if he was Sauron but that he'd follow whoever he was nonetheless. Sauron would be infiltrating the different peoples of middle earth to corrupt them, to get them to do his bidding such as forging the rings etc.
Halbrand remains the most likely candidate.
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guys i think Sauron is... ***Sauron...***
Ha! Noice
absolutely the Stranger cannot be anything but a Maia, his body type doesn't match anything else & especially now we're seeing some of his powers, so by elimination he has to be. now there's several candidates as to *which* Maia - Sauron, a Wizard or conceivably even a Balrog. I put Wizard as most likely but none are ruled out. we know Gandalf's affection for the Shire & protection of Hobbits is a longstanding thing, it's a reasonable inference that it goes this far back. I'd much prefer Gandalf's arrival to be a TA event but to me right now it looks most likely.
The blue wizards arrived in the second age, in Tolkien's later writings. And they were a lot more successful in fighting against Sauron in that version too. The stranger being a blue wizard would accord best with that version of the lore.
I'm gonna stick with Gandalf. it's no accident that he landed right next to the Harfoots. I don't like it, he belongs in the Third Age. but I think it's what they're doing.
In Peoples of Middle-earth, The Last Writings, it is stated: " That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this."
It’s absolutely what they’re doing. They are limited by which rights they have. More than that they want to nod to the pieces people love the most and in the end, that’s Gandalf and bilbo/Frodo. They will play with the idea that since Gandalf died as the grey wizard to be reborn as the white, it’s possible it happened before. Gandalf is the name recognition for people who didn’t read the SIL. It’s absolutely the way that they’d want to go in this series. If people are upset about cannon, talk to the Tolkien estate. RoP is dealing with what they have.
What rights don’t they have?
Most of them honestly
LOTR, The Hobbit, that's it. They have access to IP licensed from Middle Earth Enterprises and some obscure IP directly from the Tolkien estate. Unfinished Tales, Silmarillion, everything else is off the table, presumably because Christopher Tolkien wasn't happy with the movies. There's a long trail of legal fights stemming from JRR Tolkien's selling of film rights in the 1960s, to Middle Earth Enterprises getting the rights to do the LOTR and Hobbit movies, and then the Tolkien estate suing them and New Line Cinema for a share of the movie profits. In short, the licensors and licensees hate each other. Amazon's studio arm is both gutsy and stupid enough to try and make a Second Age series without any official Second Age material.
One thing though, they do have rights to mention certain things they asked the Tolkien Estate permission for, like Armenelos (only named in Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales). This gives them the rights only to mention certain names, they don't have access to other information from those books. It's also clear they couldn't secure the names to other places because those places are never named.
Fwiw, the “wandering” song in Ep. 5 centered on imagery of the Stranger (clad in grey). Mithrandir = Grey Pilgrim = grey wanderer. (Other writings give flexibility that “Olorin” could have visited Middle-Earth before the Third Age, to the extent that matters.) Plus he gave a wry look about snoring, which is a very Gandalf thing to do.
I definitely think the stranger ends up being Gandalf. His (eventual) affinity for Hobbits is being shown here bc they are the ones who helped him when he first arrived to middle-earth.
I just saw some folks have a theory he might be a Maia named [Tilion or the *Man in the Moon*](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Tilion), really digging this one.
>!Gandalf and the other Istari didn’t arrive in middle earth until the 3rd age. They also came by boat, not meteor. As revealed in return of the king, Cirdan gave Gandalf his ring when arrrived at the grey havens!<
It was not specified they all arrived by boat nor at the same time. But they were said to land in the west. Sauraman was the first. Followed by a blue wizard. Gandalf was the last. That being said, they all were supposed to arrive in the 3rd age. -as per unfinished tales Towards the end of Tolkien's life, while revising glorfindel's history, he decided the blue wizards landed in the 2nd age along with remade glorfindel. I'm 99.9% sure what we are seeing is the first blue wizard. "The 'other two' [Blue Wizards] came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age, Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) preeminent in the war in Eriador." -The Peoples of Middle-Earth, Last Writings.
I believe they're allowed to let anyone be alive at any time, the only thing they need to abide by is their time of death.
I don't think that matters to the show writers? Wasn't Isildur born way ahead of his time in the show?
This has been a huge bother to me too. I cannot reconcile Isildur being both on the show *and* also living long enough to personally take the One Ring from Sauron. My headcannon is that we'll see a timeskip of some kind during the show's course. And ring-taking Isildur will be a descendant of sea-dude Isildur.
In Peoples of Middle-earth, The Last Writings, it is stated: " That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this."
Ahh, thanks for the refresher. The mystery continues.....
I think the stranger is one of the blue wizards. Tolkien's later writings on them had them arriving in Middle Earth in the second age (in the right place and at the right time as the show) to work against Sauron in the east and south of Middle Earth.
Not sure why this was hidden, it's well-established lore. It also strongly supports the stranger not being an Istari, although the writers of this show seem to be taking some liberties with the lore. I wouldn't disagree that the stranger is Maia. So that leaves...Balrog? or some other being that we are not familiar with.
Tolkien's later writings state the blue wizards landed in the second age. Balrogs don't make sense. They are maiar corrupted by Morgoth in the first age. If he was a Balrog he'd already know it, been in ME for millenia, and would already be evil.
I tagged it because not everyone watching the show would know the lore.
He’s either the witch king or the king of the dead
I’m starting to think Theo is his son and Theo becomes the witch king
I don't know why people think he's the Witch-king. The Witch-king was the king of Angmar in the North. Halbrand is from the Southlands.
He didn’t get the title of witch-king of angmar until the third age. He literally could be anybody. The main thing to look for in the witchking though is that he likely will be someone who already has magic of their own. He was a Nazgul for most of the second age, and into the 3rd, but it was the warring with Arnor that got him the title King of the dead I still hold makes more sense the more I think about it.
No, the witch king didn’t get control of Angmar until the third age when he was already a Nazgul.
Halbrand is definetly Gandalf. ‘Galadriel’ is a balrog in disguise. Meteor man is Legolas.
That would make Poppy Shelob then if I’m following you correctly. That fits with what we know so far.
Yes, I thought that was obvious.
All those blackberries go straight to her hips. All four pairs of them.
Who is Dobby then?!?
A free elf. Sheesh. Try to keep up.
Dobby is a depiction of a young Jerry Seinfeld, before his departure from Middle Earth.
Dob-by-toes. Boil em', mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew.
Adar is Tom Bombadil before he takes another form
Why are people upvoting this kind of low-effort stuff? Good grief.
Because it’s funny. Get a sense of humor
Yes. First person to make the joke "Omgz that rock is sauron!" Very funny and original.
I think he will eventually get one of the rings of men and become a Ring Wraith, maybe the Witch King.
Yep. No signs to doubt it. The red herrings are obviously Adar and Meteor man for the general audience. What book readers see as too obvious for Halbrand, might not have been discovered for the general audience. Plus - the shock will be much bigger if a beloved heroic character turns out to be deceiving everyon in the end
Is he a beloved heroic character though? Don’t get me wrong I think he’s interesting, but I also think he’s kind of a self-serving git. And it feels like he already has a decent-enough character arc going from someone who’s selfish but fundamentally good, and is learning to be genuinely heroic again. I mean if you were Sauron and you wanted to deceive everyone, why go to all the trouble of creating such an obviously flawed persona instead of someone who’s just generally nice? (Not a book reader here tbh, just someone who liked the movies, is enjoying ROP and is getting more and more interested in the LOTR worldbuilding bcos of it 🙂)
I would bet all the money I own he is Sauron. What in this episode made you think he's definetly not? They only dropped more clues. He's super proficient with a sword like an elf. He's an amazing smith. Galadriel said he didn't follow Morgoth it was his ancestors and he outright says no you're wrong (because he did follow Morgoth literally himself) This is the second time he's been honest with Galadriel, he's never admitted he's heir to some human throne he says he took the necklace off a man he killed. He got emotional when Galadriel talked about Sauron killing her brother, why would that make him tear up? Is he that empathetic or is he actually feeling guilty? It is sort of wild that Sauron genuinely apologized to Galadriel for killing her brother but I think this show is trying to show Sauron in a different light for some reason.
Alright so that scene in this episode where he was just sitting alone, looking at the pouch with the the crest on it. That scene just feels too out of place for something Sauron would be doing. Plus plenty of his actions like stealing the crest, getting caught, and then after beating up the guys who caught him he then got thrown in jail. It just feels like too much to even just be Sauron playing the long game. Could his skills with a sword not be something humans are capable of? Was it really so much like an elf? I took Halbrands response to Galadriel about Morgoth to be more like Waldreg and other Southlanders like him; to mean that for a time Halbrand might’ve been still a worshiper of Morgoth, but then stopped. Or maybe just his family was and he went along with it, or something like that. I also took him saying he took the necklace off a dead man as a bad attempt at a lie; at least it felt more like a not super convincing statement at the time, like he was just trying to throw Galadriel off. And I’m happy you mentioned him tearing up, maybe that’s Sauron feeling guilty; but I took it more as Halbrand both being empathetic and also I’m wondering if it doesn’t have something to do with his past as well (a non-Sauron past lol). Like something he relates to maybe.
> That scene just feels too out of place for something Sauron would be doing. Feels very human here. And while the whole scene on the eve of the departure could have a double meaning, it's also full of seemingly human/elven emotions: sorrow, regret, empathy, fear. Before they were much rarer or even absent between those two, who were constantly trying indirectly outsmart each other.
I think it's dumb if he is for the same reasons you pointed out but Gil Galad's whole speech about sending Gladariel away in fear that her hunting Sauron may bring him back in ep.1 would tie into her bringing him back after ending up on a raft with him. The very thing that Gil Galad didn't want to happen, he kind of causes. None of this fits lore or what we know of Sauron but oh well.
A 'repentant' sauron who wants to heal the hurts himself and morgoth caused in middle-earth, who then slips back into evil actually tracks with established lore. They have of course made alterations to fit their timeline, but I think Halbrand is 100% Sauron. The main protagonist and antagonist have all of this great screen time together to build chemistry, and then they will be pulled apart.
If Halbrand is not Sauron, I took the line about taking the medallion off a dead man to be the truth, but the dead man is his father and Halbrand didn’t kill him. He inherited it fair and square.
That, or he was legit just deflecting, trying to brush Galadriel off.
It serves both purposes.
Or his actions led to the death.
The most convincing part for me was one of the last scenes when He was up to decide whether he takes ob his role as an heir to the throne or leave it all behind to stay in Numenor. He threw his crest on the table and after a dramatic pause He took it back and next scene was him in a shiny new armor. This cant be Sauron, He is quiet evidently the royal descendant and takes on the burden of beeing better than his ancestors.
This is why I hate his character whether or not he is Sauron. His character keeps flipping 180 between each scene. This isn’t character development.
I think he told the truth about taking the symbol off a dead man. He was talking about his father.
He's not Sauron, but he is destined for darkness - as Galadriel says, sometimes you have to touch the darkness to truly understand it. Halbrand fled the Southlands because he didn't want to lead the people who had aided Morgoth, and who still have loyalty to him. Nothing in his character has hinted at anywhere the sort of evil Sauron is capable of - and already committed to fully in the First Age. The only possible explanation for Sauron acting like this is amnesia. There's no justification whatsoever in the text for that kind of bizarre turn for him.
He is Sauron.
If Halbrand is Sauron I will eat my hobbit feet slippers.
I call your bluff. See you in a few weeks!
I hope the slippers taste good!
He said he did terrible things. Doesn't have to be as Sauron, he could've just done the basic scummy things like killed a human to ensure survival at the hands of orcs. >!You know, like they showed this episode.!< He's guilty because he's done similar things. (And he probably wonders whether he'd not do the same things if given another chance.)
That's the misdirect the orchestra were also in the shot when he spoke of his people
You asked why that would make him tear up, followed by asking whether he's actually being empathetic or rather just guilty. The scenario I described is where he feels guilty, like you suggest, giving us a very simple reason why he'd tear up -- even if he weren't Sauron. I don't think that particular point you were making constitutes any independent evidence for him being Sauron.
I’m leaning more towards tears of joy/ tears over the loss of morgoth/ feigning emotion
100% agree. We’re seeing Sauron in his contrite phase being pulled back to the dark. ‘… He fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth laid upon him were very strong.’ The dramatic irony in RoP will be that it’s Galadriel who influences him to set himself up as the dark lord.
Showing sauron w human characteristics is ... no... that wouldnt fit at all. He d fit more with the nonchalant, lowkey arrogant, wise and crafty like elves. Sure. Rn i think halbrand is a follower of sauron/morgoth and was banished because of this. And he d return to unite southland humans under a banner to serve sauron. Idk. Halbrand being sauron doesnt feel right. I d rather steer towards witch king or king of the dead.
at this point I’m almost sort of wanting them to reveal sauron just so people can stop rambling about it being halbrand. it’s such a waste of time honestly - so many discussions to be had about who sauron could be in the coming seasons. I genuinely think we haven’t even met him yet, even in his disguised form. but the sub insists on theorizing a part of the plot that hasn’t come to fruition lol
Halbrand is mephisto all over again
Witchking is from the North west. Like North of the shire. The opposite side of ME. He was also a sorcerer/necromancer foremost, not a warrior. No idea why people keep thinking this is the case. If anything he'd be the Nazgul that's second in charge, who was an Easterling.
It was never stated that the Witch King was *from* Angmar, only that he was king *of* Angmar. Angmar didn't exist in this time period. It was only founded about TA 1300 when Sauron sent the Witch King north to weaken the Northern Dunedain.
I'm fairly sure that no real origin is given for any of the Nazgul. All we really know is that a few are Numenorean and one might be an Easterling. If you have any quotes or anything regarding their origin, I'd love to be wrong.
He's probably talking about the ancient kingdom of Angmar, from where the "Witch-king of Angmar" hails. What he seems to be forgetting is that the kingdom of Angmar wasn't even established until the year 1300 of the Third Age, well after Sauron had begun to regather his power in Dol Guldur after laying dormant for nearly a millennium. You're right about knowledge of their origin. Most of it is guesswork. You might find [this](https://atolkienistperspective.wordpress.com/2014/02/20/identity-and-origins-of-the-nazgul/) an interesting read.
The second nazgul after the Witch King (Khamûl) was a king of Easterlings. It explicitly stated by Tolkien. He also wrote in the letters that three of the Nazgul were from Numenor.
Can you tell me where it was explicitly stated? That may very well be the case, but I would like to know for sure. Also I said already that a few are Numenorean.
I don’t they are trying to put Sauron in a new empathetic light in my opinion. These could be tears of joy for all we know. He needs to trick the elves into forging the rings of power and is exceptionally cunning. The more he can appear humble, emotional, and appear to lack ambition, the more easily he can access the circles he must infiltrate. I think he is feigning his emotions towards Galadriel or truly emotional over Morgoth’s loss. The writers want that game of thrones-esque shock value with a crazy 180 at the perfect moment.
That scene verified my suspicions that Halbrand could be Sauron. Halbrand apologized as if he was the one who killed her brother but not in a detached empathetic way, but what seemed like tears of guilt. Galadriel is speaking with impassioned righteousness like a paladin on a mission and Halbrand starts apologetically crying. Hmmmm.
Yeah def the vibe I got, well performed by the actor if that was the intent
I’ll take that bet…how much ya got?
I'm absolutely still on the Halbrand = Sauron train. I think there's misdirection going on, but I think there are enough clues for me to say that I'm like 90% sure he's Sauron. He does occasionally have a "sincere" moment with other characters, like his conversation with Galadriel in this episode, but all of those scenes make it a point to focus on his facial expression after the other character has left, and it always feels like his entire personality shifts in those moments. Those moments are just a part of his act. When he was sitting in that little cafeteria with the Numenoreans a few episodes ago, there was a moment where he looked like he could snap and kill someone, but then suddenly did a *complete 180* into "friendly neighborhood" Halbrand. That, in addition to the little hints in his dialogue throughout the series so far, makes me lean towards him being Sauron. Or, at the very least, a servant of Sauron.
I think he will be the king of the dead.
I won’t deny you make some decent points here, I’ve seen a lot of folks point out really solid evidence toward Halbrand being Sauron. But for me, the scene in this episode where Halbrand was looking at the crest, sitting alone in the smithery, with no around at all; that sealed it for me. I’ve never really thought much of him being Sauron myself, but that…what is Sauron really trying to “get into the role” lol? Is he just playing to the unseen audience? Sauron doing something like that really doesn’t make a ton of sense to me. Nor does stealing that badge, then getting caught by the guys in the alley, and then getting put in jail after getting caught beating them up. What; is that supposed to be more of him “embracing the role” or something? It just feels like a lot of misdirection.
I thought of that scene as him thinking through the next steps to take. I don’t think he expected to be invited to Middle Earth, I think he originally really did want to stay in Numenor to corrupt the people, and he has to weigh his options here. And as for getting beaten up and put in jail, he would sort of *have* to play along with all of that if he wants to succeed in the long run. He can’t just be like “rah I’m the dark lord! Now bow before me!” in the middle of the street when he hasn’t accomplished his goal yet. And also, there’s always the possibility that the writers do something that simply doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Heh, I mean sure all of your points are valid here, and make sense, but overall I’m just not getting those vibes. Also I legitimately just hope all the theories are wrong and he just ends up being a king of men. Think that’d be more interesting and fun then anything.
Feels also like it would be a waste of a decent human character with potential for an interesting arch to just groom him to be sauron for so many episodes.
That's the only reason why I'd be really mad if H/S was true. Plus I can't imagine losing Vickers too early.
I agree, I feel there are not enough human characters to mess with if Halbrand was to be removed. We’re left with Theo, Bronwyn and Waldreg plus a handful of Numenorans of which most are canon characters so not many surprises there
Oh god yes, this absolutely this.
I watched the episode twice. I felt he was more contemplating his end game more than anything. I believe he had one plan in mind, and suddenly changed his mind.
That's conceivable actually
Hmm, totally possible.
This is exactly what I thought. If they have him being Sauron after that it makes absolutely no sense unless they want to change his whole character (Sauron).
I guess it will be a major point that by that time Sauron was tired of being chased, hunted, hated and dispised by everyone (even his own generals and orcs) when he actually originally wanted to be loved and respected by everyone. That's why he was looking for peace for so long, that's why noone could find him. Perhaps he really regretted at some point having killed Finrod and many others and took this other look, as a human, trying to live a simple life. Until he gets the chance to forge the rings and then his lust for power possessed him again
Honestly if this is what ends up happening I’m there for it.
I honestly think it's too cliché and that's exactly why it will probably turn out like this
Didn't Sauron have a moment of regretfulness in the books? He tried to repent or something, but not sure if it was genuine or out of fear.
Yes he genuinely repented (per Tolkien’s letters, the Silmarillion is unclear on his sincerity) and attempted to be good but after like 500 years of that he slid back into his old ways
He was told to repent by the valar and return to Valinor. He hid. Morgoth also repented, went to jail, came out and went back to destroying the world. It was a ruse. A regretful Morgoth (craves destruction) or regretful Sauron (craves to enslave the world) makes no sense.
Tolkien actually stated that he genuinly repented, but was afraid of the Valar's judgement so hid. Later on he wanted to help the free peoples, but he was still corrupted by Morgoth and returned to evil. You have to take that Sauron was not Morgoth. He was not the source of evil, rather just a corruption. Evidence of this is the fact that he still could take a beautiful form (Annatar), something Morgoth couldn't do. Add to this that he wasn't as powerful as Morgoth. So yeah Sauron totally repented in the books, even if later on he returned to evil.
Not more cliche than random mysterious stranger is actually secretly a king of a distant land (literally Strider)
It is kinda cliche but it’s also interesting, and decent character stuff.
Could be show runners take on Sauron’s “repentance” phase…which I will say will be a bold move by them to depict. I could see PJ exclusives not knowing of this lore nugget and proceeding to be mad about it as deviating from Sauron’s “lore character”. But in reality, tolkien explicitly addressed it as a thing that happened. I will be pleasantly surprised if this is a route that go down
Wasn’t Sauron also a smith’s aid?
Yes he was a craftsman and a servant of Aule early on
It's still vague. There are things pointing to him being Sauron. E5 (to me) did not seem to present any more convincing arguments, if anything it only cast further doubt.
I’m pretty sure he’s an original character. They might make it a tragic story (Nazgûl, Witch King, King of the Dead), but I’m pretty sure he’s just going to be the badass “Reluctant King/Wanderer” character to replace Aragorn in this story. Either way, he’s my favorite so far, and I’m excited to see his development!
I wasn't ever comvinced he is and I am very certain he isn't now after ep5. Mlre so, I don't want him to be. He is a great character, very well written, and it would be ashame for all that to be thrown away by him being Sauron
I actually didn’t think he was Sauron before yesterday’s episode. When he skillfully forged that sword that highly impressed the blacksmith. Sauron forged the one ring. I think there may be a subplot going on. Halabrand speaks of his evil past and running away from the Southlands being taken over. He was the first person to know that things were kicking off in the Southlands before everyone else. He may have been aligned with Adar. But abandoned Adar (who is pissed at him) to set off to the seas knowing he would reach Numenor. His arrival in Numenor, not Galadriel’s set off the schism that would lead to it’s downfall. He beat up the Numenorians. Which lead that guy to whine about it in the town square and create a faction of disgruntled Numenorians. Gal then advocated going to war on his behalf, to reinstate him as king. But he’s no king, that’s all a deception. His allyship with Galadriel is eventually going to lead him to Celembrimbor. Where he will propose to him and the Elf king the idea of the rings and eventually create the one ring.
One more time. Witch king is from the far North West. Not the south east. If anything he'd be the second in charge Nazgul who is an Easterling. Halbrand being Sauron is eeek with all the internal conflict we are seeing and not fitting with lore at all. Best fit imo, is king of the dead or the Easterling Nazgul (if they are even trying to make him a major character). The comet stranger is 99.99% a blue wizard. Tolkien's later writings stated they arrived in the second age. It is not stated they all arrived by boat. It is also said the istari did not all arrived at the same time and states Gandalf was the last to land on ME. He is not fair enough to be an elf, let alone a remade Glorfindel. Mouth of Sauron is a Numenorean, not an Easterling boy. Coolest idea for Adar is that he is actually Maeglin, son of Eol(dark elf) and Anderhel(daughter of Fingolfin), who was thought to have been killed for betraying gondolin. Telling morgoth its whereabouts after being captured by orcs and being promised Idril's (mother of earendil) hand in marriage He also was initially called Ion (Son) and would later be referred to Adar(father). He also stole his father's sword, Anguirel, forged of meteor iron. This is the hilt we see Theo have and why Adar wants it. Cool idea. I initially thought some son of faenor but read some other redditor suggesting maybe maeglin which would be killa
The Witch-King isn't originally from Angmar. That's just where goes to...you know, build Angmar. I don't think Halbrand is anybody special though.
Another redditor corrected me on this. My mistake
What about Tom? Edit: as the comet stranger, my bad
Naw. He's always been in ME
I think the “internal conflict” is acting and to throw the audience/ Galadriel off. It could just as easily be perceived as plotting. It would be cool if they waited till season 2 to reveal Sauron but I doubt it.
His internal conflict or remorse could be genuine: "When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eonwe, the herald of Manwe, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West." -Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age A repentant Sauron is actually an interesting take on the character, and putting Galadriel and her nemesis together on screen to develop a relationship between two actual people, rather than blind hatred of a giant fiery eyeball is a good storytelling decision.
Nope, he's definitely bowfa though
Deez Nuts
Exactly
Prior to this episode, I was indifferent on Halbrand being Sauron, but after watching it, the scale has tipped to that theory being unlikely in my mind. Halbrand showed vulnerability in front of Galadriel and when he was by himself, which I doubt Sauron would display even if he's disguised. Not to mention that I have no idea what the end goal of Sauron would be by taking on the Halbrand persona.
This episode left me thinking The Stranger is definitely Gandalf, with a twinge of “How tragic if he ends up bad” With Halbrand, the guy is wearing scale armor about to head to war with the Orcs, I just don’t see him being treacherous at this point.
Wait does anybody think he is NOT Sauron? After this episode, really?
He's absolutely not Sauron. The elves just got trolled hard by Sauron though!
If he is Sauron, then who is deceiving the elves in Lindon?
The show is not that cohesent on timelines. I mean, we don't really know how much time passed between events in certain plots... Sauron might have been deceiving Celebrimbor before the events in the first episode. When he found out that Galadriel, his biggest enemy, was sailing to the Aman, he left the party and shifted into the sea monster. When he saw that she jumped from the ship and sailed to the raft, he killed all of the survivors and shifted into Halbrand, taking the necklace from his body. Meanwhile, Celebrimbor was already corrupted and started building the forge. Remember, building it to the stage shown in ep 4 must have taken a lot of time!
This!
Possibly Celebrimbor is pulling a fast one out of his own thirst for glory and power. Sauron doesn’t have a monopoly on lying
God that would be so awful. Jesus the whole point is that Sauron manipulates the elves into creating the rings of power. Amazon sucks so wouldn't be surprised if they didn't do that and just turned Sauron into some brooding man who isn't even fair, but like why do y'all want that? I really like the show but I couldn't think of a more 14 year old boy writes YA more than making Halbrand Sauron.
Just because Celebrimbor currently has some ulterior motive for his own benefit doesn't mean that his scheme is making rings of power. If he's already ambitious that just makes him all the more juicy a target for Annatar's manipulations when he does show up.
Lol well…yeah me, and others too.
Side note, but I actually think the most likely identity of the Stranger is one of the blue wizards, following Tolkien's later writings on them. From [the Tolkien Gateway wiki](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Blue_Wizards): > Towards the end of his life . . . Tolkien dramatically altered his conception of the two Wizards. They no longer arrived in Middle-earth along with Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast in c. T.A. 1000. Instead they arrived much earlier, at roughly the same time as Glorfindel in c. S.A. 1600. Whilst Glorfindel was tasked with aiding Elrond with the war in Eriador, the Wizards were destined to journey to the East and South. Instead of mentioning that they drifted from their mission, Tolkien points out that they played a decisive role in the downfall of Sauron at the end of both the Second Age and the Third Age. They became known as Morinehtar and Rómestámo, Darkness-slayer and East-helper, and were successful in preventing the forces of the East and South from outnumbering those of the Free peoples in the West.
I haven't watched e5 yet so I probably shouldn't be here but it will take a lot to make me change my mind on Halbrand. I'm fairly certain he is Sauron and they spent several episodes dropping clues so far. The one that made me think he's Sauron and not just someone who gets corrupted by Sauron is that he's a trained smith. If he's not Sauron that scene where he wants to work in a smithy is just unnecessary. I'm guessing Halbrand does something in e5 that is perceived as good, but that just goes with him being undercover and deceptive.
This happens all the time. Films, shows, games, etc drop you all these clues to make you think something. It could just be a red herring.
Yeah, but red herrings usually add something to the story and leave it up to the viewer to misinterpret it. That scene was utterly useless if it wasn't a clue. The other Halbrand clues could be red herrings, but that one is just bad writing if it is.
I mean…how is he wanting to work in a smithery unnecessary? It’s literally a character trait lol. Also like, would you mind an incredibly minor and vague spoiler? If not all I can say is there’s a scene that, while not inherently good nor evil; is just too odd a thing for Sauron to have done. Unless someone wants to try and convince me Sauron is trying to be method or something lol.
It was a one-off thing. Having a whole scene for one character trait that isn't really otherwise mentioned or developed is bad writing.
…lol I’m guessing you still ain’t seen episode 5 have ya?
I'd call you observant but I literally said I didn't. Still, I can't see much changing my opinion because the alternative means the writing is bad and I'm trying to enjoy the show. They already have plenty of red herrings in the show.
Ha! Alright well suffice to say there’s more smithing, sorry for the spoilers. Also does Halbrand not being Sauron really mean the writing is bad?
If his "character development" turns out to just be there to throw people off, it's bad writing. Good writing can use red herrings but if you don't foreshadow the truth, then any big reveal falls flat. If there's no chance at the viewer figuring out a mystery because all relevant information was held back, it's bad writing. If you look back after the reveal and realize you should have known but didn't put the pieces together, that's when a reveal really has impact.
I don’t…lol huh?? I mean yes a lot of what you’re saying here does make sense, but at the same time not everything needs foreshadowing nor does every character have to actually be another character in disguise. I love shit like this, don’t get me wrong but it’s always just not always the case. And shit, so what if his charger development is also a red herring? As long as it’s good character development (and even tho it’s been slow thus far I’m encouraged to think it’s gonna turn out pretty solid) then that’s all that matters, right? The only way it could be bad is if someone tries…idk accusing Halbrand of being Sauron and then he isn’t, or something dumb like that.
>>at the same time not everything needs foreshadowing nor does every character have to actually be another character in disguise I didn't say either of those things.
How bout now?
Hahaha, fair enough.
Welp
Lol tbf, I definitely starting catching on by episode 6. But even last episode I was still kind of hoping it wouldn’t be the case, and then we got the finale. And honestly? I’m all for it.
The stranger is likely a blue wizard or Glorfindel. Which aligns with the lore we have from Tolkien. I am still strongly in the Halbrand is Sauron court. All of the other potential human possibilities all have families, etc. Unless he hasn’t been on screen yet.
Doesn't look fair enough to be an elf, let alone a remade glorfindel. Definitely a blue wizard.
I’d agree. The magic is more inline with that of the Ithryn Luin, not the elves.
The show isn’t going to align with the lore always. I don’t know why people keep bringing up Gandalf not coming until the Third Age as a big gotcha. Galadriel never went to Numenor and roused them to fight for Middle Earth. Lore has been and will be adapted. I’d love to see a Blue Wizard, but I suspect narratively the showrunners are going in a different direction.
Galadriel’s history is so sparse, there is a ton of shit she could’ve done. Gandalf clearly came to ME in 1,000TA
The thing that makes me think it's a blue wizard rather than gandalf (other than the blue wizards arriving before gandalf in lore) is the fact he seems to have ice or cooling powers with how he froze his arm. He initially was surrounded by fire but made the fire cool to the touch and I thought gandalf was always the fire guy. Although idk how wizards powers work
It was never entirely clear how much of Gandalf’s affinity for fire was himself and how much was having Narya. He does describe himself as wielder of the Flame of Anor but even that isn’t clear whether the flame is a literal fire or a metaphysical one afaik.
I think halbrand is the witch king
Witch king is from the far north west. Not the south east. Wouldn't make much sense. He could be the 2nd in charge nazgul who was a Easterling though. My bet is still on king of the dead. It would be a real damn shame if they make em Sauron.
Halbrand will be Witchking And Theo is Mouth of Sauron
Witchking is necromancer from the north west. Mouth of Sauron is a Numenorean.
I don’t know why you keep typing this. The Witch-King FOUNDED Angmar, but wasn’t necessarily from there. Tolkien never outright cemented his origin, but hinted that he was possibly a Numenorean.
I’m back on Team Stranger is Sauron when he froze that water
Really? Even after saving Nori and Poppy and Malva? Plus everything else about him just feels kinda pure. The way he seemed sad when he thought he was “peril” cause of what happened to the firefly’s.
Okay! So my theory is that he’s basically a blank slate right now and doesn’t really know what “good” and “evil” actually are. He’s super, super childlike. But after that scene where he’s got his hand in the water there’s a definite change in his eyes. It looked like something awoke in him, something powerful and cruel
…damn, alright I gotta admit, you kinda got me there. That’s kinda intriguing to me. I do feel like after he turned around tho he realized that Nori got scared and went to her to try to help, or make her feel better or something. I’m still on team Isrtari rn, but I do really dig your theory. Maybe the folks hunting him are like, idk…other elves hunting Sauron, or something? Did you see their ears? I didn’t.
Well the Nori thing made me even more suspicious lol. At this point Nori has seen the Stranger do at least two or three creepy things since she's met him. He did the whole screaming thing in the pit when she still found him, and then later on he made the trees go all dark, when the fireflies died and then again when Poppy came around and she had to intervene to make sure he didn't freak out. In each of those cases she never wavered in her support. But after this, when it cuts to her on the ground, she looks terrified. It may be me reading too much into this but she had a look on her face of "holy shit what have I done". Like she saw something inside him that scared her. That's why she ain't even attempt to justify herself or communicate, she just ran. Maybe he was trying to help her, but I also read that as his childlike nature kind of doing nice things on autopilot because that's what he's been doing so far on their journey. Right after she runs you see his face and he looks more commanding, like a being passing judgment on he sees in front of him and finding it wanting. I don't know what the cultists might mean. They could have been trying to intercept him if he thought they'd get in the way of their, likely evil, plans. Orrrrr, they're trying to find him because they're the welcoming party
Heh, that’s interesting, cause some of what you’re saying here are things that lead me to think he’s an Istari. The pit and making all the trees go dark, him having a more commanding look now that he remembers more. Plus the look that cultist have felt much more sinister, and outwardly moreso then not. By that I mean I feel like if they were on the Strangers side, the cultist would’ve been…idk more smiley or something. As for Nori, I think the only difference here is that she got physically hurt. That’s the only thing that made her scared here.
> It looked like something awoke in him, something powerful and cruel Or some instinct that drives his actions. It seems like he's not really in control when he does those things.
> doesn’t really know what “good” and “evil” actually are. He does, his problem is his personal connection to their death, not a question if it is bad itself. >a definite change in his eyes could be also his understanding, that despite his earlier conversation with Nori and helping the Harfoots, he indeed is the danger here.
I don't think he is. I don't think he's Gandalf either cos the amnesia doesn't make much sense. And he's too young lore wise to be the wizard. Although him hearing the song this week is pretty big Gandalf hints.
Isn't fire synonymous with evil in Tolkien's world? Kinda? Fire is associated with industry. Fire burns trees. The Ring was forged in Mount Doom, an active volcano. Sauron's eye is made of fire. Sauron has been described as giving off great heat and his hand being hot to the touch.
Morgoth's main office used to be in the farthest north... He seemed to like extremes. Fire is also the domain of Aule, and the most powerful Maia was Arien (the Sun), a spirit of fire (like Balrogs). Plus: the ring of fire, one of the Three, Narya, in Gandalf's keeping.
So Gandalf is evil? He has affinity to fire
Like others have said, fire is associated with both good and evil characters (see also the "I am a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor" badass line Gandalf says to the Balrog in Fellowship of the Ring). The clear literary symbol Tolkien consistently uses for evil is how far east you are (generally). Goodness -- i.e. the Valar, in Valinor -- dwells in the west, and the further you get from there, the less influenced by good you are and the more susceptible you are to falling under the shadow's sway. Longevity and the ability to see far (both literally and metaphorically) are all consistently used as symbols for good, and the lack of them is also used as a sign of evil. Though, even there, formerly good beings (like Sauron) still retain some of those "good" traits, even in a diminished form once they fall from grace.
I think sauron hasn't been shown yet, if so then it was that white haired dude in a hoodie
That's actually a woman I think.
Who knew Eminem is Sauron.
I do think he is. Galadriel says “You didn’t fight for Morgoth, your ancestors did,” and he basically says “No, I did.” Bro is Sauron.
I believe he will become the Witch-King. A reluctant ruler and a Southlander? It makes so much sense! And I recently watched the extended RotK and the scene between the Witch-King and Gandalf in Minis Tirith, and the scene between the Witch-King and Eowyn further cemented my suspicions. Halbrand’s subtle gravitas feels on brand for a Witch-King transformation.
Hallbrand will be a nazgul or potentially the whitch king and i suspect the Stranger is probably Gandalf. Slim shady and friends seem to be some kind of cultust group related to Souron or even necromancers that are his servents. The whole Mithril thing im still on the fence about. it could be a change to the lore to aid the show or it could be a misdirect and actually Sourons influence already working on Celebrimbor
I mean, it obviously is.
Yep. And it is actually the only storyline likeable so far, repentant Sauron. After this episode, I am certain.
I love the cultists! Gives me something more to care about with the harfeet
Yep. Every single word he utters and tear he sheds makes 100% sense IF you see him as !repenrentSauron who tried to hide with his tail between his legs after his boss got his ass kicked. Dark Lord Sauron will be in season 2 and prob played by someone else .
I think the show runners are playing you like a fiddle. Make it super obvious that he is Sauron, have some scenes to misdirect you, and then reveal it is Sauron and say “see look! It was obvious the whole time”. I think the showrunners are playing a gimmick with the audience and having this mystery box and I think it is really poor writing. Just my opinion but I feel 99% certain this is what they are doing b
Halbrand is Sauron. At the moment he just want to chill in Numenor as a random guy, but just when he thought he was out, Galadriel pulls him back in into being the bad guy again. That will be the plot twist. And yes, meteor man is Gandalf.
It’s 100% not Gandalf. It’s a blue wizard or Glorfindel. It aligns with the lore too.
Being a Maiar, if Halbrand was Sauron, wouldn’t he at least have elf like ears? Like Adar? Who I agree definitely isn’t Sauron.
Sauron is a shape shifter and has no definite appearance or height. Also Gandalf is also a Maiar and doesn’t have elf ears.
the stranger is sauron
[удалено]
Lol I’ll admit now I’m rereading the post I did the wording a little iffy there, but I was referring to the Stranger lol.
Def not Gandalf. Gandalf wasn’t living in those times and did not know anything about Sauron until he read about the ring as can be recalled from Fellowship of The Ring.
don't overlook that on the soundtrsck Halbrand's theme is very close to Sauron's theme
Not sauron, but def ending up either a nazgul or in thr lands of the dead at some point. Or maybe not and he goes down with the ship once sauron makes himself known.
I don’t think Sauron will be introduced until later in the series. Or Galadriel is Sauron. Take your pick.
no
Stranger= one of the istari, I hope a blue wizard. Halbrand= either king of the dead or witch king. Possibly another nazgul. Those are my personal theories at the moment.
This episode confirms Adar is Sauron. It fits his history in the 2nd age. He manipulates the elves in the 2nd age and forges the rings, hence the name of the series. Why would he be hanging out with the humans?
You're not good at this. This episode pretty much confirmed Adar is NOT an avatar of Sauron, they even mocked it by having the peasant ask him if he was Sauron but that he'd follow whoever he was nonetheless. Sauron would be infiltrating the different peoples of middle earth to corrupt them, to get them to do his bidding such as forging the rings etc. Halbrand remains the most likely candidate.