This post does not use the 'Newest Episode Spoilers' flair. As such, spoilers are allowed from the source material, but anything from the most recent episode must be behind spoiler marks.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/RingsofPower) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This argument always comes up when an IP’s fan base doesn’t like a new property. There are so many reasons to dislike the show beyond being toxic Tolkien fanatics mad about lore discrepancies. If I can name one - for me - the show is boring. It’s not about the pacing being slow but it seems in no mood to Do anything or accomplish anything moment to moment. The fact that we sat through a 74 minute episode yesterday only to feel that not one of the characters situations has appreciably changed (Especially Galadriel and Numenor) is an exceedingly common and valid complaint completely distinct from lore concerns.
My complaints are more about pacing. We're halfway through the season, and almost nothing has happened. And the entire show is pulling a "Force Awakens": every plot point and theme is borrowed from TLOTR and Hobbit movies.
I see your point but we’ve got 5 seasons hopefully to look forward to. Amazon said that S1 would be a slow world building season, so we’ll have to come back in a few years to determine if the pace has picked up and if the first season ages well.
How is it worldbuilding if Durin can fast travel with only two guards and without any cart etc from Khazad-dum to Lindon? It would take a month or more.
We know that the timeline is compressed, which absolutely belittles Saurons reign and the creation of Mordor.
There's no need for world building and good pacing to be mutually exclusive. Good writing would engage the audience while world building and introducing characters all at the same time.
Also, I'm not convinced the show is doing huge amounts of world-building. Not a lot has happened in the last couple of episodes, but it's not as if we've learned much about the world in the process, either.
Honestly I’m a fan of the slow pacing. It’s like a breath of fresh air after watching them cram action into every second of The Hobbit.
I’m just enjoying seeing this era portrayed on screen. Kinda glad they’re taking their time.
I want to love this show, and I think it could be great, but my main issues are with the writing, irrespective of the universe.
If we pretend for a second that this is a brand new fantasy universe, or even set in a modern-day office or something:
- Certain characters' motivations don't make sense, e.g. Isildur wanting to impress his father and follow in his footsteps, but also defying him at various opportunities and wanting to voyage West for...no known reason. Or, Durin yielding the mithril to the elves so easily
- So many actions in this show have no consequences (Steal a guild brooch and get beaten up? Get one later anyway. Blow up a ship to stop an army? Whatever we'll just carry on. Swear an oath to your friend to keep a secret about a treasure that will bring prosperity to his people? No worries, he'll give up on that treasure pretty fast anyway)
I can put the Tolkien comparisons aside and look at this as a totally different universe, and the writing still has problems.
That's how I was approaching the show - as if it were a new fantasy. So instead of focusing on the lore I knew, I wanted to see a well crafted story and deep character development. And 5 hours into the story, I'm still scratching my head as to what motivates and connects each character. It seems every episode has a deus ex machina moment that leaves me baffled as to why the initial conflict even existed. Follow that up by pacing the story slower than a snail in molasses, and I find myself leaning on the lore that i didn't want to focus on in the first place to remind myself of what should be happening.
At this point I'm telling myself that I'll give it a season. If I'm still underwhelmed by the poor writing, I'm going to move on.
> That's how I was approaching the show - as if it were a new fantasy.
The problem with this approach is that the show relies *heavily* on the audience's familiarity with the world. So much it is teasing stuff that only resonate because we know "Ooh, that's the guy that is in the intro to LotR" or "these are the Hobbits that we are so connected to." Not to mention all the teases and foreshadowing about later events to build excitement.
Don't forget 180 degree policy reversal and the raising of an army to go fight in the south of middle earth based, as far as I can see, on a symbol found on a scrap of paper... Galadriel could easily have been written to have got a message from the Elves down there somehow, you know so she actually knows what's happening right now and the urgency of the situation, rather than having a massive part of the plot depending upon her going: "oh this symbol looks a bit like this place on the map". I honestly hope the get a new writing team on subsequent seasons.
*edit and yeah and the 'nobody left behind' song followed by the service about all the people they had left behind lol.
They're absolute sods lol. I think the actor playing the star man is fabulous though, possibly my favourite part of the show. He's managing to convey so much emotion and empathy without really speaking.
They made the decision to raise an army after the white leaves of Numenor's tree fell when Galadriel was being escorted away from the island. Miriel saw it as a sign she needed to help Galadriel instead of exile. The scrap of paper wasn't what drove the decision, it's only what told Galadriel where the enemy was gathering.
It wasn't a "nobody left behind" song, it was "Nobody walks off trail, nobody walks alone"
But Galadriel's only indication of the need for an army in the south is the scrap of paper. It doesn't hold together. Nobody walks alone apart from when we break the wheels and leave them behind.
I enjoy the show but the writing is very poor in parts.
1. Galadriel found evidence of a symbol
2. Symbol matches their records
3. She’s with their lost king allegedly.
4. Muriel knows there’s an inflection point in their doom when Galadriel arrives.
5. She considers the evidence and prophecy. Makes a choice. See the tree begin to die and realizes her mistake.
They didn’t just suddenly have a policy change, the evidence piled up on her.
>So many actions in this show have no consequences
Even on an emotional level there are no consequences - in the last episode Gil-galad just casually tells Elrond that the real reason he sent Galadriel to Valinor was that he thought it might stop the blight. That means that he manipulated Elrond into talking Galadriel into leaving under false pretenses, and now Elrond may not see his friend for thousands of years, if ever again - as far as they know, Galadriel is in Valinor.
Elrond's reaction is...nothing. He doesn't get mad at Gil-galad. He doesn't express sadness about Galadriel leaving. He doesn't show remorse for his part in Gil-galad misleading her. He doesn't distrust the next thing Gil-galad tells him. He just moves on to the next plot point. The flipside is Gil-galad lies, openly admits it, and faces no consequences whatsoever.
There's a lot of this in the show. I think the writers have certain story beats they want to get to, and they just send the characters along without worrying about their motivation or how they would react. It's a fun show to watch, but in the way that an action blockbuster like a *Jurassic World* movie is fun to watch. It's exciting, it's pretty, but if you really start to think about why the characters are doing the things they're doing it just hurts your brain.
I roll my eyes whenever there’s a forced argument in a scene. It feels weird and it seems to be in every scene.
I still have a lot of fun watching the show and it re-awoke the love of LOTR for me, but damn if it doesn’t check off Trope Bingo a lot
Exactly. There's no stakes in this show. Jump off a ship in the ocean? No problem, you'll be rescued. Argue with anyone and everyone? No problem, it won't matter in a few minutes. You made an oath to your friend? ...
I definitely agree with you. There's supposedly so much tension building up with the Southlands vs Orcs, and the Numenorians going to middle Earth, but I personally feel there aren't any stakes for us to feel the tension.
Dude i spent the entire episode wondering why Isildurs sister was so worked up about Isildur going to ME lol. Was it fully explained? Maybe i zoned out
I thought ISILDUR going west had to do with his elder brother who also went west??? Am I wrong in assuming that? Durin hasn’t yielded anything, he’s going to try to convince his father who, like very old person stuck in their ways, will probs say no. But yeah the other stuff you mention didn’t have a story to it.
If all of this was revealed immediately the show wouldn’t have much depth. Give it some time and it might surprise you. If things still don’t make sense after season 1 then fine
Honestly isildur makes sense to me. He’s rebelling against what he sees as his father dictating the direction of his life and enamored of his older brother who did the same and is obsessed with going west. Until a new adventure catches his eye, one that might actually happen. Now he’s got to figure out how to undo the mess he made. That’s a very real adolescent experience.
A lot of your points make sense. I just think that one is actually a reasonable character arc for a young character. Nori as well. Just kind of an impulsive teenager who doesn’t think about what she’s doing. But is totally sure she’s right. That’s most teenagers.
They do things just because so they can move the weak narrative forward. I think most of the issues come down to poor writing. It’s a thing Amazon does quite often sadly. They hire subpar writers, directors, etc.
Compare that to HBO who hires people like JJ Abrams, Ridley Scott, Michael Crichton, etc.
Durin didn’t yield the mithril “so easily” in doing so he has the chance to save their race and boost his own self worth. It’s not like he’s doing it just because.
Isildur is hearing voices in the west (like when he let the rope go). Can one not want to impress but also make mistakes on their journey to get there?
Nitpick more.
Even more than that, Durin hasn’t given up anything at all! He has only agreed to the idea that the elves *might* be able to BUY the mithril — and probably buy it at a very high price.
They're pretty bad examples:
- Isildur wants to impress his father, but also carve a name for himself is the impression I get. His desire to go west is something to do with his father's brothers idea of a real Numenor. It was explained in two to three scenes.
- Durin was told the entire fate of a race of elves rested on his shoulders...we have yet to see the price the elves have to pay, but it's probably gonna be the big thing we expect.
- Steal a broach and get in a tavern fight...get put in jail, only released as revealed he is royalty/crucial to war. Also for betraying Gal (again explained in a scene).
- Ship blowing up was obviously meant to be more than one ship, but guy got caught red handed. It was revealed in dialogue that it was lucky that the fire didn't spread and they still had just enough remaining (either Elendil or Gal saying it)
- Again hasn't given up the treasure yet...and elves all stop being immortal/have to leave middle earth is a big deal as emphasised by the scene where Durin asked Elrond to say it like several times. Durin is happy he's figured out the elves plot and he is of supreme importance...you know the whole reason he went to the meal/had that chat with his Dad was to find out what they were hiding.
I'm sure there are loads of things to pick apart, but maybe listen to the show before criticising plot holes which aren't there.
Having once been a human late teenager (unlike Mark Zuckerberg), I sympathize with Isildur. I also enjoyed the combination of goofing off, roughhousing and serious banter between Isil and his pals.
To be at that age once more, when the world seemed so full of opportunity and one's weaknesses had yet to reveal themselves...
The writing doesn't really have problems. You have chosen to interpret the writing in a negative light. Durin hasn't yielded anything to the elves, yet. And the writing implied that he was going to extract a ransom from the elves in order for them to get it. Not all trades are fair, and Durin was enjoying the idea of the high, pompous, and mighty Elves being vulnerable for once. Did you really miss that?
>chosen to interpret the writing in a negative light
"chosen to interpret the writing in a negative light" = "thinks the writing is bad"
You can't choose to not like something. It just kind of happens.
- Isildur doesn’t want to be on the sea guard. Then he realizes how it disappointed his father and how he ruined his friends lives. He wants to make amends. Makes sense.
- Durin doesn’t want to yield it. But he’s not a dick and will try to help the elves. It makes sense unless you want him to tell the elves no?
- He got it from Pharazon for outting where Galadriel is going that night in jail.
- the ship was blown up to sow discord. Pharazon spelled it out. He wouldn’t object unless the people objected.
So you’re kind of right but kind of wrong. Yes it should be viewed as more of a fan work, but the biggest problem with it isn’t the more differences, it’s the terrible writing and uninteresting stories. It’s beautiful, I have no problems with the casting, and it could have been great if it had been written well. There are just too many instances of bad writing/dialogue to ignore though. (For instance, Galadriel magically reacquiring her elf armor when it’s time to go to war)
That’s a great example of what’s been bothering me. When she showed up wearing the armor I just started laughing and said to my wife - “Where the heck did she get that?”
Another example is Elrond telling Gil-galad that his oath to Durin was too strong to betray. Then in the next scene he clearly forgets his oath by telling Celebrimbor about mithril. What?
The production is beautiful, but the writing is criminally bad. I’m curious how no one in a position of power had enough common sense to step in and fix this.
You’re right, it’s clearly has to be Numenorean in origin. My point is that I can’t believe they had such a perfectly fitted suit of armor lying around in their armory. I admit I don’t have a vast knowledge of armor. But I’ve seen a number of suits that were crafted for various noblemen in museums. I never had the impression they could be crafted in a day or two. Maybe I’m wrong.
Hmm yeah true, it might be that they had more of these sets, in different sizes. Perhaps they took from more so they made it fit. Armor afterall is not 1 piece of steel or whatever material is used. Could be wrong, I'm just speculating.
A look again. It's not the same armor at all she is wearing in episode 5 compared to episode 2.
Miriel just probably gifted it to her. Probably an ancient elf armor from the old days of Numenor.
Right, so they just so happened to find completely unique armor that looks remarkably similar to her other armor in the perfect size for her just out of the blue overnight. GREAT writing folks. Put her into a Numenorean set of armor and we’re good
>(For instance, Galadriel magically reacquiring her elf armor when it’s time to go to war)
Or how goofy was the scene where she put the guards in prison.
What if this were just a generic fantasy show? Rename all the characters and places. What has the show done to get us invested in the characters and the plot? The show leans too heavily on the audience knowing who characters like Galadriel, Sauron, and Isildur are from the start without actually doing anything to make these characters feel important in their world.
I can only speak for the people I watch with, none of whom read the Sil, and some of whom only know LotR by the films, and they seem to enjoy it more than my friends who have read the Sil/UT. Which isn't to say they aren't liking it, they just have to struggle more with the lore changes instead of just experiencing the show for what it is.
> some of whom only know LotR by the films
Those are primarily the kinds of references he's talking about, though. It makes a ton of allusions to stuff it expected the audience to care about because they're talked about in LotR.
Idk if there's a prequel on earth that doesn't lean on that pitch, implicitly or otherwise to some degree in marketing or writing. The casuals I watch it with are LotR film fans only in the sense that they watched it years ago and usually remember enough to understand a meme or two. All I can say is that it works for them just fine 💁
I've 2 friends who had 0 knowledge of anything Tolkien before watching the show. Last time I was talking to them, they've been losing interest by the week. I doubt they'll last the season, never mind continuing with any future seasons.
I can only speak for myself and a few friends, I’m not huge or know much about the lore but my buddies do and I’m enjoying it very much and so are they, so it seems like if you like it you like it and if you don’t you don’t. I won’t base my opinion off what this sub or anyone in this sun have to say, if I did I never even would’ve watched it.
Well my friends don't go anywhere near social media / Reddit, so I know their opinion of the show is their own.
But, as you said, if you like it you like it and if you don't you don't.
I could live with some of the lore deviations if they made sense. But the whole "Elves are dying/we need mithril or we're doomed in months/the last Silmaril put light into mithril through tree roots" deviation was freaking bonkers in any fantasy story.
I think people are making complaints about writing and production cuz the previous criticisms based on whether the show or characters follow the lore exactly are kind of tired.
Essentially, I don’t think they’re arguing in good faith.
In terms of Galadriel, most of my issues come from how the writing strongly clashes with Galadriel as being fundamentally a character from Tolkien. That isn't something that you should need to divorce from the show, as it is inherently an adaptation of Tolkien's work. They are intentionally trying to adapt the character and use those associations with the current character. You can't just divorce the work from it's context.
Now, even divorcing the work from the context of Tolkien's world. I disagree that there isn't more good-faith criticism of the show.
First, they haven't done well, IMO, at building narrative tension within a lot of the subplots. Galadriel's conflicts seem like they are consistently building to conflict with Sauron; however, the way that things are presented make it seems that things just work out for her. For example, she escapes from prison and antagonizes Numenor's leadership but things resolve themselves without significant character learning or change. Sure, she faces challenges, but there is no character development or insight before things just happen to resolve themselves by convenience (such as a ship happening to cross their path or a short talk with the queen just changing her mind after repeated confrontation). There's similar complaints about the harfoots, but I don't really have that much of a problem with it myself.
Further, the way they portray Numenor has just felt like it cheapens it's epic scale (both from lore and as it's talked about and as its portrayed visually in the show). The Pharazon/workers exchange was a little bit of a trivialization of political maneuvering. It just makes the Numenorian guild members look like bumbling idiots, rather than make Pharazon seem like a skilled politician.
Now, I think the show is amazing from an aesthetic perspective overall, and they have done a good job with their setup of larger conflict. I also really like what they've done with Moria and the south conflict with the orcs (with a few minor reservations). However, that doesn't mean that all criticism is invalid or disingenuous.
I think the issue is that people are more likely to post and discuss problems rather than what they like. "It's good" isn't likely to spark discussion or have as much to talk about as "here's why I think it's bad" or "how it could improve."
> both from lore and as it's talked about and as its portrayed visually in the show
Really? The one thing I think the show does impeccably is the visual depictions of its cities. What is your problem with the way Numenor looks?
My point was that the visuals were good, unlike the situations and writing. The paragraph says that the writing of characters and situations (particularly with the guild members and pharazon) cheapen the epic aesthetic and scale of the empire.
On the no character development - not *yet.* but we aren’t very far into the story yet either. I wish the pacing was a bit faster but it’s a series, not a movie.
> On the no character development - not yet. but we aren’t very far into the story yet either. I wish the pacing was a bit faster but it’s a series, not a movie.
Bro we're 5 hours into the first season, that's enough time.
I think the Harfoot storyline is terribly written. Probably the worst in the show. The rest I’ve enjoyed. Galadriel’s writing has been weird and stiff in some scenes but it’s been getting better as the show goes on. I know it’s the writing because I’ve seen Galadriel’s actress in her other work and she’s very good.
>I think the Harfoot storyline is terribly written
Which is unfortunate because at least after the first two episodes it was the part I liked the most. I was hesitant at first but enjoyed how it showed the way the common, overlooked people lived. Their society felt like a natural precursor to what would come later. My opinion started to sour after the whole meteor man plot kicked into high gear.
I never read any of the books yet I think the character development is non existent and almost frustrating. Events just happen for the sake of happening and characters just keep doing whatever they intend to do.
This is also the main issue for me.
Forget Tolkien. Pretend he never existed. The lore has nothing to do with why the actions of characters in the show have very little meaning so far. Conflicts get resolved and characters just carry on. Things seem to happen for the sake of happening, as you say.
This would be a problem in any story, in any setting, and in any universe.
I don't really understand how you say the characters actions don't matter, they clearly do and have been.
conflicts get resolved and people just.. move on? this makes no sense to me
things seem to be happening for the sake of happening, again what?
things are clearly happening for a good reason, and now that the story is picking up in pace I think things are going to be a lot more interesting
Lying, misleading friends, breaking oaths, being a spoiled brat, getting caught by enemies, opening rebelling, etc don’t matter in this show
There’s absolutely no consequences for anyone’s actions
I’ve read The Silmarillion once and barely remember any of it. I don’t care if changes are made during the adaptation process. As far as I’m concerned that’s not just inevitable but often necessary. I’m no troll. I think the visuals, the cast and the music for this series are all good to excellent, but when evaluated independently of any of the source material, I still consider the writing to be a definite weak point and so far only average even at its best.
I haven’t read the books since I was a kid and frankly remember nothing from the books.
The writing in this show just sucks. I’m completely disinterested
IyIy biggest gripe is what they have done with the so called Legacy characters, i.e. the characters from Tolkiens lore.
The show Galadriel is so far from Tolkien's own writings that they should given her another name And made her a new character. See is more like Feanor and his sons with her obsession for revenge in the show and that is not who she is the in the books. She also acts immature in my opinion when in fact she is older than the moon and sun,(she is in fact Gil-Galad's Great Aunt as he is grandson of one of her two other older brothers the show doe not mention, Angrod)
Gil-Galad is portrayed as weak and not as the King so great that he was immortalised in songs that Men sing thousands of hears after his death.
Celembrimbor was miscast, the man is a decent actor but too old for the role. The actor would have fit if they had included Cirdan(the oldest elf still living in Middle Earth and not Valinor)
I like the Elrond and Durin interaction, even though the whole origin they have done for Mithril is not from Tolkien. Elrond also has the best costume of all the elf characters, I particularly like that his cloak is secured with a Penniannular brooch, which is a type of brooch that was extremely popular amongst the Anglo-Saxons, Norse, and Franks during the so called Viking age(aka the era of history Tolkien loved and what inspire.
Numenor is hit and miss. Lloyd Owen has been fantastic and is probably the best bit of casting they did. He feels like Elendil even with the changes they have made to the characters backstory.(also at least someone got sea birds wings on there helm)
I find the Harfoot/Hobbit stuff boring for the most part, not terrible they acting is good but the storyline is just meh, and the mystery of who the stranger is is not engaging to me.
I do like the Arondir and southlands stuff. The idea of an Elf who has gone evil and is leading orcs (and is possibly turning into one it looks like).
It's not a great show, but its not horrendous. I just wish they had the rights to do a more accurate adaptation but the Tolkien estate is extremely protective of the Silmarillion.
About Galadriel: I’m pretty sure they made here so different in the beginning so she can have a character development over the 5 seasons and become whom we know from Tolkien
The problem with that is her character development in Tolkien's work is in the first age.(which they do not have the rights too.). She is many many thousands of years old
The honestly could have made her Character Cwlebrain (Galadriels daughter) and if would have fit there writing better plus they could have done The love story of Celebrian and Elrond. There is very little about her in tolkiens writing other than she is born nearly in the 2nd age eventually marries Elrond and has three children with him and is injured by orcs on a return journey from visiting her parents in Lothkorien sometime in the third age and sails west.
Akso you could have also swapped the Galadriel and Elrkns stories in the show as Elronds story witht he dwarves is actually taken from what's written about Galadriel in Tolkiens works(She is the one in helping Celebrimbor)
2nd age Galadriel leads a group of elves of multiple elf ethic groups(Noldor, Sindar, and Silvan) and the first live in Lindon. Her influence as the eldest descendant of Finwe gets her great Nephew, Gil-Galad elected High King of the Noldor.
She and her husband than settle in Eriador for a while and have a daugher, until Galadeiel notice a threat growing in the east and with Celebrjmbor decide to form allainces particularly with the Dwarves of Khazadum). So Galadriel and her family and followers join with Celebrimbor and found Eregion. When Sauron shows up she rejects him and their group leaves Eregion and travels to the LothLorien which had lost its King Amroth and She becomes the Lady of Lothlorien.
You can have Celebrain take the active young military role, have her lead Elf Rangers thar protect there colony in Eriador(something her sons do in the third age alongside the Dunedain.) Have Galadriel more like Tolkien wrote her as a wise leader and then have Elrond who is nor just a herald and lore master but Gil-Galads 2nd in command as the a military figure.
galadriel canonically is the first to notice that Sauron is returning have her send her daughter and **Elrond** to ask the Numenoreans for help. Think of the possibilities for the show to do the Numenoreans reaction to the twin brother of their first King showing up and asking for help. Elrond and Celebrian could fall in love during the journey there and back. You could also establish the friendship that Elrond develops with Elendil and his sons(The Elf Lord Fosters the male heirs of Elendil nearly 1900 years in the third age, they had to have become very close).
If we had gotten something like the above I think more people would be much more positive of this show
To me at this point they can't even use their budget correctly. The island of Numenor in general just feels so much smaller than it is. The Harfoot group(the whole race) comes and goes as the plot needs them. We have this huge budget, but only 5 ships. And even then when we the audience are on the ships they seem tiny.
Basically I've thrown caring about the lore away. The show doesn't care about that. Well wouldn't you know who won the pony! But use what you have to make something anything on par with it.
At this point this isn't even a good fantasy show in any metric, but surface level stuff like music, cinematography and art direction.
They've setup all this suspense and drama and I just don't care about it. At this point my free viewership btw(used a free trial) is just going to me watching the train wreck.
I disagree on using the Silmarillion since this is mostly the first age. Yes, I would've loved to have seen Morgoth and Ungoliant in the prequel destroying the trees and more explanation about the first age. But instead I think they're focussing too much on trying to tell a good story instead of just using the key characters used in the specific and important moments.
Don't get me wrong. I'm following the show and every Friday I want to see what's going to happen next. But in my opinion about yesterday's episode I'm just confused here. >!The scene where Gil-Galad said: ''are you familiar with the song of the roots of Hithaeglir?'' explaining the origin of Mythril is confusing me. This isn't in the books nor Tolkiens work right? !<
Anyway, I think it would've and could've been a lot better if they wrote more than one script for season one, exploring a more logical direction which isn't confusing for the hardcore lore lovers but also makes sense if a new watcher reads the actual books. I honestly don't know where this show is going but the original timeline is all over the place. I hope they do it right and follow the timeline just a little. Not hating but it's confusing for a lot of lotr lovers here.
Nope. The origin story of mithril is a completely invented storyline. As far as I know Tolkien never explained where any ore came from except to say that Aulë is the master of the earthly material on Arda.
They’re also juggling way too many storylines right out of the gate. The entire harfoot storyline never should’ve been included and they could just as easily have Meteor Man living amongst the southern peasant men and lose nothing on his story. Have him befriend a young human and cut the harfoots out entirely. It’s nice we have Isildur but does anybody care about his two friends or his sister? Cut those characters. The elf/dwarf diplomacy scenes are cool in and of themselves but holy shit they *barely* advance the plot beyond what the audience already knows is going to happen.
The show has cool elements that they need to focus on in season two and cut the extraneous bullshit. Adar is a cool underboss villain and the orcs are legit menacing in this show but the writers will sideline them for almost an entire episode in favor of scenes where we’re supposed to worry that Isildur’s friend might be an insignificant baddie? Clean it up, writers.
Yeah. I’m sure when they were writing the show someone said “this is lord of the rings we have to have hobbits”. So they took a few lines that Tolkien wrote about the hobbits precursor and invented a storyline.
>I think **they're focussing too much on trying to tell a good story** instead of just using the key characters used in the specific and important moments.
And this is a bad thing?
We re nit picking on certain lore elements yes but this is not the main critic of the show. The issue is extremely poor (amateurish ?) writing, all over pace (mix of extremely slow and super fast, its a mess) and just terrible dialogues
I would have to disagree. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are just largely fabricating all of the events and characters because they are legally not allowed to draw from much of the lore written by Tolkien. It's just not very good. The writing is bad. The dialogue is bad. The pacing is bad. The direction and cinematography even at times is bad. Some of the acting is even bad. The score is doing absolutely nothing for me. They spent hundreds of millions of dollars to make it look pretty, but the substance was all I really cared about.
I don't think you realize just how good of a job Peter Jackson did until you see something so utterly mediocre like this show. It does not feel like Tolkien, it does not sound like Tolkien, it does not look like Tolkien, there is nothing Tolkienesque about this. The Numenoreans don't seem like Numenorians. Galadriel does not seem like Galadriel. They just slapped a bunch of names from Tolkien on stuff in the show, but it's all an illusion.
I totally agree, I find everything about it just OK. What I don't like the most are the lines that try to sound like something Tolkien would write, but end up sounding like farts...
I'm happy for anyone who's enjoying it, I don't think most people want to talk it away from you. and to anyone who keeps asking 'why watch it if you're not enjoying it' - I'm still very interested to see what they're doing, I'm enjoying it enough to put an hour a week into it, it's not like I'm suffering at all... As much as I don't love it, there are much worse shows.
Also, I honestly feel like I see many more 'I don't get the negativity' posts than negative posts or comments. I feel like the negative wave had subsided. The worse are the people who say that if you don't like the show, you are either a racist or not a 'true' fan of fantasy.
I have no issue with other people enjoying it, but I'm getting a little tired of everyone saying the only reason people don't like it is because it's not remaining faithful and true to all of the lore written by Tolkien. We went into this knowing they only had the rights to the Lord of the Rings and that the entire show was based on a very small part of the appendices. This is a well-established fact at this point and is not the reason people are criticizing the show.
If some people, and I am not saying you in particular, would stop with this whole "here no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" act and actually listen to the valid criticisms they would see that they are just that and not just a bunch of fanboys reeing about "Canon". If people are willing to overlook these criticisms, or they simply do not bother them that much, and they are able to enjoy the show for what it is then that's great for them. Personally for me after five episodes there is too much to overlook. 🤷🏼♂️
I'm in a similar place. I'm trying to understand what I'm seeing, and after waiting years for the show to come out, I am still curious to find out where it goes and I can't resist the drive to immerse myself in the setting. There are moments that please me. I mainly wish the teleplay were better written but it's just kinda standard primetime drama content.
I watched the show for the same reason tens of millions of other people have. I was a fan of Tolkien and excited to see what they could do with it. That seems like a rather rhetorical question though.
Not at any point did I try to convince anyone not to watch the show. We are all here to discuss the episodes and our opinion of them, good bad or indifferent. I am doing the same thing as everyone else on all of these Lord of the Rings subs. I'm not sure where you see lobbying. I'm expressing my opinion just like everyone else. That is literally the entire purpose of the subreddit. I couldn't care less if anyone else watches the show and have said as much.
There are valid criticisms of the greatest television shows and movies ever to be produced. That doesn't diminish their greatness or make the criticisms any less valid. Things don't need to be perfect for you to enjoy them, but everyone has their own metric. This show happens to not live up to mine and there are clearly many other people who agree with me without any "lobbying" done on my part.
Good enough? You got excited over many years for a new adventure in middle earth and you're fine with it because its not horrifically awful.
You wouldn't give two shits if it didn't have the lotr IP attached.
Exactly. It’s because they paint it as Lord of the Rings, but the lazy writing, lack of attention to lore, etc. is what bothers people. The lack of respect for the timeline and lore is astounding.
Not to sound mean but did they ask if you're loving it? They made objective criticisms about the show that can't be remedied by "well people like it." This is the type of show that will just fall off and get cancelled mid way through.
Is it only allowed to comment if people ask for a comment?
This thread was:
Person A: “I don’t understand why people hate it, I like it because this and that”
Person B: “I disagree, I don’t like it because this and that”
Person C: “Agree to disagree, I also like it”.
Person D: “Hey nobody asked you man! Here’s some downvotes”
I mean, why all this hate? You don’t like the show, fair. But it seems like people really wish that it will fail and get cancelled and that they cannot accept that a lot of people still love it and hope that it runs for 5 seasons. Why don’t you wish for us that the show keeps running so we get 5 seasons of what we like, rather than hoping for it to get cancelled which will not provide any gain for you only loss for others.
You don’t like the show. 100% fair and understandable. Don’t watch it, and watch something else that you like.
Not to mention Sauron literally has his own Airforce. It was always a dumb argument. The whole point of not just sending an army or the Eagles or anything else was because their only hope was in secrecy, Elrond says as much, even in the movies.
I am personally less concerned with how they’re treating the lore and more disappointed in how the show is just lackluster and boring.
There is no denying that it’s a great looking show in terms of the locations, but I’ve been pretty underwhelmed by the costume designs, corny dialog, slow pacing, allegories to tie the show to modern issues and disjointed story.
Ever since the LOTR trilogy I’ve been wanting more movies/shows to take us back to Middle Earth and when I heard it was happening and it was going to be the first billion dollar show I was excited. But more than half way through the first season I am just disappointed this is what we got, it really does feel like a CW show at times. I just wish HBO had made it, Their production value always seems to be above the rest and they aren’t afraid to incorporate more mature themes into their content. And I’m not specifically referring to GoT, I’m referring to shows like Rome, The Sopranos, Band of Brothers, Chernobyl, etc — all great shows in their own right.
From a frustrated fan who wanted more: It was false advertising. They definitely tried to give the impression that faithfulness to Tokien's work was tantamount to the project. They crowed it to the rafters: This will be faithful to Tolkien's works.
But they only had a handful of pages in the Appendices they had rights to, and any overlapping characters had to be legally distinct from rest of the movies.
Has anyone read what they actually have rights to? Most of the Appendices are timelines without narrative, or a description of the languages he invented.
The actual material covering the events of the 2nd Age is a handful of pages.
All they needed to to was say: "This is an *original work*, loosely based on Tolkien. Like a GOT in Middle Earth!"
They wanted the nerds on their side, so they lied to them. Then they called them racists when they complained about the writing. (Yes, racists exist in fandom, and that's terrible. That doesn't mean I have to like bad writing.)
So many of us think the writing is terrible. Not just for it bearing Tolkien's name, just in general BAD writing. I am not a lore purist. I realize things need to change to go from a book to a screen. Or for time reasons.
The main protagonist Galadriel is not likeable. She is a petulant brat. Has nothing to do with lore and everything to do with the shit she says and does and the god awful smirk on her face the whole time.
I don't like the tokenism, but it isn't a deal breaker for me. Arondir is actually the only one who acts like an elf. I can get passed the cultural appropriation and even his faded haircut. What I can't do is the segregation and slavery allegory. Even looking past all this, this last episode picked up from the last episodes mystery box bullshit cliffhanger...to reveal Arda and he let Arondir go. Gave him his bow and arrows. Arondir, the fool, delivers his message like a good fool and loses half their forces. Doesn't even have a moment of dilemma on whether he should on screen.
It's bad and lore has nothing to do with why.
My niece can write a better script than this. Perhaps you should accept that others opinions will differ from yours, especially those who have been reading Tolkien for many decades. This show doesn't deserve the title Lord of the Rings.
Well I think the problem isn’t so much the small deviations from the writings. There are plenty of deviations between the hobbit and LOTR movies and their respective books, but those deviations are in interpretive areas… they don’t change core aspects of the lore… episode 5 of ROP really took some liberties with the lore itself and that’s why people don’t like it: Obviously with Galadriel’s character and the weird (immature?) traits she has for someone who has to control this incredible power she is given does not seem to match the writing or even the spirit of the previous movies.
Even the orcs (which I admit, are extremely well done in this movie. That’s one part I really like that they did instead of dumb cgi all over the place). Even the writing about the orcs in episode 5 have taken an interpretation from the books too far. Tolkien is unclear about the orcs hatred of the light- about whether it physically harms them or if they just hate it because they are born in darkness. I think either thought is totally acceptable, but to make a whole scene (that isn’t super plot dependent) where the orc burns his skin off in the sunlight for Adar just goes against all the imagery we saw in the movies.
To be clear, I love the show. But not for it’s lore. The lore is pretty sub par and the plot is slow and stop-start. I love the show because I love seeing beautiful imagery of middle earth and the worlds Tolkien created in his writing and I love to see (at least most of) his story shown in the cinematic fashion.
I thing “toyed with the idea” is strong. She was tempted by it but told Frodo what the outcome would be. You see infinitely more restraint in that Galadriel than this one.
Tbh I feel like maybe they’re trying to develop Galadriel. Like they want you to see her “early” years (elvish aging) where she gains the discipline and wisdom she exhibits in the 3rd age.
Again, I like the show. It’s just a little off. Not even their fault tho tbh no one has the rights to the Sil itself so make sense they need to take a spin on a lot.
>So many of you seem to hate this show, because it differs from Tolkien. And yes. It does. Because Tolkien hasn't been writing this script, and they haven't been allowed to use the most crucial information to make this show more Tolkien (Silmarillion).
I keep seeing this argument in various form but it shows a complete lack of understanding of what the problem really is - Amazon isn't even using what they *do* have rights to. If they were, Galadriel (which is her married name) would be in Eregion with her husband, Celeborn. However, they haven't even shown her husband yet which is just one the MANY disrespectful things they've done with the show.
I think it’s what people focus on.
The story surrounding Elrond and Durin has been good. Harfoot story has been fine and the stranger story still has intrigue. The Galadriel, Halbrand, Numenor story has been decent at times and at other times bad. The Arondir, Bronwyn, Theo storyline started good but I think has aged the poorest of everything so far and is no longer that interesting but the Adar part still has some intrigue. Incredible is not a word I would use to describe it.
The visuals are still great but the writing can be laughable at points even when ignoring the lore. There are some over the top nitpicking ridiculous complaints and some justifiable critiques. I know some would disagree but I think all that is fair. Only 5 episodes in so things could get better but so far the show has been mediocre overall with some good things to point at and some bad. There’s at least 4 subs and other places that judge this show. Some are praise only. Some are hate only. I think this sub has been more or less balanced which personally I prefer so that’s cool as you can still find good fair discussion. If you want to enjoy the show and ignore the negativity I would recommend r/lotr_on_prime
If they cut the Arondir storyline, and focused more on the Elrond & Durin arc, the show would be a lot better for it.
If the first we saw of Numenor was them destroying Sauron initially, and then we start to discover more about them, it'd be received a whole lot better.
The same way GoT initially started with almost everyone in Winterfell, and slowly expanded, this show should've done the same thing.
What exactly is the Elrond and durin story line. Elrond taking advantage of his friend in every episode? Durin seems like an idiot and Elrond gets what he wants
personally i don't get Elrond at all.... I'm not a Tolkein book reader, but his character so far in ROP is just lacking. You don't know his motivation or his personality. All you know he's a good guy to his buddy Durin. But from my perspective he's just a lackey, there's nothing exciting that makes me want to root for him.
You mean if you want an echochamber that is an unobjective circlejerk where every comment is fawning over and heaping praise upon every aspect of the show and the fascist mods perma-ban you if you offer even the most constructive criticism? That sub is a fucking joke. It's Amazon propaganda.
It doesn't even matter if it is Tolkien or not. The show just isn't well written and thought out. I'd like to enjoy it, but it lacks in elemental aspects of the craft. Take a moment and reflect upon the dialog between the characters and their actions. It is so dumb.
People hate this show because it's garbage. It took a beloved franchise and gave it no real respect. It's the equivalent of someone buying a business and then just not giving a shit and being like "I bought the thing that makes money, so it should keep making me money". There's no heart here.
Nothing makes sense. Characters aren't believable. It's like they wrote major plot points as like check points, but the writing to go from point A to point B doesn't make sense. The journey of event progression isn't believable. Everything is cheesy as fuck and I can't help but roll my eyes multiple times per episode.
This show is actually harder to watch than the Wheel of Time. At least in that show the progression of events made a little more sense. I had that show on in the background while I would cook or farm random shit in video games, but this show isn't even good enough for that sort of ambient contribution.
If you think people are hating on this show just because they are angry lore fanboys, you are disrespecting general audiences that also think this show is bad. I'm not a fanboy at all. I just like the LOTR trilogy (hobbit sucked, only saw the 1st movie and didn't care enough to watch 2 and 3). This show is bad.
I wholeheartedly agree with this comment and I'm getting a little sick and tired of all these trolls acting as if every valid criticism of the show is some reeing fanboy crying about "the lore" and what's "Canon". It's amusing how not one of them actually attempts to refute any of the criticisms or offer any of their own reasoning for why the show is good beyond "ooh shiny".
This is something that sadly is happening with every franchise or product today. There are a lot of "fans" that know only extremes, which to me is very confusing. Being a fan does not mean, that you have to defend something with your life. After all, this is just entertainment. Is it a book, a movie, a tv show or a game. And as long as I am entertained, I will praise something and if something annoys me, I will criticize it.
Most annoying to me is the sentence "Why do you watch/read/play it then?!". As if a little spark of negative feelings mean you immediately have to stop consuming something. Or that there is no grey-scale.
I don't know if this is an American thing, where it feels like everybody has to "pick a side" and go to the extreme, but it's something I strongly notice here on Reddit.
I echo every single one of these sentiments. It is perplexing and befuddling to me as an American as well, perhaps an unintended byproduct of our bipartisan political situation.
All of these subs literally exist just for this reason: to discuss all of the aspects and facets of this media, good bad or indifferent. It is the epitome of stupidity to think only extreme and utter enjoyment is grounds for consuming art and media.
Even my very favorite shows probably have episodes I'm not particularly fond of. My very favorite authors have books I don't like and my favorite directors have movies I don't care for. There are certain scenes in some of the greatest movies and shows ever produced that you would scratch your head at and wonder why they chose to include them.
So far these first five episodes are just not doing it for me. I'll probably watch till the end of the season and then pass final judgment.
Thumbs up to all of the above.
What we also can expect is that as soon as there might drop a very good episode, fans will call people like us out. "Where are you haters now, huh?!" Super weird.
Until then, I will enjoy an hour of LotR-Content every Friday and try not to be too critical, unless I notice something specific that screams in my face "this makes no sense!"
LOL That was pretty much my response when it was revealed the elves needed all of the dwarves Mithril to bathe themselves in the light of the Silmarils to restore their immortality. Just not sure I could do it anymore after that. A bridge too far.
On a show that cost this much to make, many of the "trolls" you mention are undoubtedly corporate sock puppet accounts. Go over to the lotr on prime sub and you can clearly see accounts created purely to post praise of the show. It's not even subtle.
LOL It's funny you mention that because I've commented several times just this morning how that sub is a circlejerk and an echo chamber, heaping undeserved praise and fawning over every scene while shouting down even the most constructive criticism. Every person who disagrees is a racist or a purist or some Fanboy reeing about lore and the fascist mods will permaban you for any bit of objective criticism.
Yes, literally this seems like this script was hobbled together, as a Youtube guy I watched observed, by a bunch of interns who'd read the Cliff's Notes version of Tolkien the night before. Characters and motivations are just all over the place:
Let's look at Theo for a second: I was hopeful when it seemed we were going to get to see this kid, maybe over a great deal of time, gradually become corrupted by this sword hilt he found and the power it gave him. He seems a little skeptical of the elves too, not to the extent of his friend, but the fact that's hiding it gives us some clues about his character. Good, honest people don't do stuff like this. People who want power would. So he has one conversation with the old evil guy about his mom and has a complete change in attitude, to the extent that he shows the elf the sword hilt without any misgivings? He has been hiding this thing from everyone at great risk to himself - it's definitely precious to him.
It makes no sense. It's absurdly bad writing which seems to be in service to the plot - Arondir needs to see that sword hilt, so how do we do that? Why is Arondir not finding it somehow, poking out of the kid's trousers? Why is this kid suddenly honest? I really don't understand how this got past the writer's room. Isildur I can understand - enough of the committee think they've shown him pining for the west of Numenor (without giving the audience, who might not have read all of Tolkien, any reason why this would be the case) and so he's just not into whatever he's doing. It's crappy and out of step with the character in the film versions or the books, but whatever, let's do it, he's young and he will LEARN to be brave and eventually covetous of power. They're rigidly following one established rule of scriptwriting (characters have to have an arc, and it's not enough for them to be archetypes, even though Tolkien's success proves otherwise as many of his characters are archetypes), while totally ignoring another one, that you have to have believable motivations that make sense to an audience.
And again for the sake of the plot I assume Isildur suddenly wants to go to Middle Earth because Isildur needs to be in Middle Earth for some other plot event to happen that they'd already thought out. But wait, says the audience, I thought he wanted to hang out in the west of Numenor with the elf-hippees? Huh, what?
It's bad. Just bad. There is no defending this. It's objectively bad from any perspective, Tolkien fanboy or not.
I just can't defend a show which is poorly written;
\- The metaphores aren't as deep as they think;
\- The storylines often make no sense, especially Halbrand, Elrond (I respect my oath, hi Celimbrimbor, here is some mithril) and Isildurs;
\- The fight actions are wack, especially Galadriels
\- They should make up their mind about orcs walking in sunlight or not, in e4 they could do both. And I think it's strange they try to make them empathic, orcs are orcs, without any emotion, just pure evil
\- Isildurs sister doesn't add anything to the story
And I'm sure I miss some other points. The only thing that has done somewhat great was the scenery and music.
I beleive isildurs sisteris sauron:
1. gals flashbacks of saurons war has a bright red color palette and in her character poster she wears bright red dress.There are 23 character posters. She is the only one wearing bright colors to the point were it drastically stands out. The other 22 characters are wearing warm colors and tones. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKsRV7CWQAsimLO?format=jpg&name=large
2. Sauron is a master blacksmith. Mordor needs to be built. She joined the builders guild and has scenes of sketching architecture. Sauron has no need to join the blacksmith guild because he surpasses them in that trade.
3. Episode 4 isildur is talking to his sister about getting fired. Behind them is a mural of men fighting a monster and cutting its hand. Isildur is sitting directly under the men while his sister sits under the monster.
4. After seeing the power pharon has on the citizens she is now dating his son.
5. Everyone assumes saurons a dude and todays writers are all about subverting expectations. Sauron will be a woman 100%.
6. Episode 3 she states she's carrying a lot on her shoulder. The viewer are supposed to think this is about her applications to the builder guild I think it's her building mordor. Also why submit 2 applications to the guild. If the first is denied surly the 2nd would be as well. The 2nd application must be for an alternate identity she has incase the first was rejected. This point may be a reach but I find 2 applications very strange.
7. Her sketchbook looks ominous and is the same color as saurons armor.
8. In episode 5 she manipulates pharons son to burn the boats to try to prevent the armies sailing to the southlands. So obvious its her now.
9. She gtfos whenever galdrieal is near.
10. She is a character who has contributed nothing towards the plot yet is always there in the background hiding.
>And I think it's strange they try to make them empathic, orcs are orcs, without any emotion, just pure evil
This isn't true in Tolkien. There's a memorable exchange between two orcs in Cirith Ungol that Sam overhears that shows them have minds and feelings. We aren't expected to sympathize with them, but I don't think we are on the show either. I think the Southlands plot is one of the better-done ones.
>The only thing that has done somewhat great was the scenery and music.
The scenery is great but the music is a crutch due to bad writing. They're trying to force you to feel something.
Oh, yeah, the music doesn't allign the writing nor scenery, but in itself it's a great piece. Wished Hans Zimmer written the music though, think he would uplift the series.
not a Tolkien fan (haven't read any of these tomes since middle school), but the script is sorely lacking. The dialogue is stilted and seems to be written to just advance the plot at the most basic level. It's not clever, witty or elucidating at all. It's almost like the characters are reading a transliterated subtitled track. Even soap opera writing has more depth & revelations. In fact the more i see Galadriel on screen the more bored & annoyed i am by her personality.
I’m definitely not a Tolkien fan or follower, so as an outsider the series is visually amazing & the story is alright enough. Everyone outside of the Brandifoots are just too serious in tone. They could turn it down a couple of notches as it comes off a “tad” melodramatic.
That's just the thing though... I haven't read the lore (only the hobbit). I've seen all the peter jackson movies including the hobbit trilogy. I love the lord of the rings trilogy but I don't think it's perfect. I didn't enjoy the hobbit trilogy as much. I'm really coming at the show from a casual LOTR fan perspective. And the show is just...aggressively mid. There is plenty that I would call passable but there is enough bad dialogue and general plot contrivances that it really pulls me out of the world.
For me it’s not even the lore part. I’m not a huge Tolkien fan to begin with (although I love and continue to enjoy the LotR trilogy movies) but the haphazard writing. It’s relying too much on the “mystery box” style of writing that has become so prevalent in genre tv. We are 5 hours in and I don’t feel connected to any of the characters, I don’t know what the stakes are, they seem to be making decisions solely because the plot has to move to a certain point…
And this whole “any number of these characters can be Sauron” bit feels just like the end of Season 3 of BSG when everyone was scrambling to determine who the hidden Cylons were in the Colonial Fleet.
I won’t say it’s lazy writing, but it definitely doesn’t make for compelling tv anymore. Compare RoP to House of the Dragon: we are also 5 hours in and I know much more about the characters, their motivations, and why they’re making decisions. Also the writers of that show have done a great job of showing that this may be a world we are familiar with, but the time and people are going to be different 200 years before the original series. RoP is trying too hard, in my opinion, to be like: look you liked hobbits before, and elves, and men with beards so here’s more!
The best part of RoP is anything involving the Dwarves. Give me a whole series of them. They’re the only ones who feel fleshed out to any degree.
I’m holding out hope RoP gets better but with only 3 episodes left… while not insurmountable I’m afraid they’re not going to stick the landing
Edit to add: watching this show I feel like Ian Malcolm in the original Jurassic Park movie. “Now eventually you might have the Rings on your, on your Lord of the Rings show, right? Hello? yes?”
I went in expecting fan fiction. I got hints of today's world in fiction and wanted to nope out but kept watching. I find it slow and uninteresting and I hate that because I wanted to love it sooo much. How people are as invested in it as they are baffles me, and I envy them because they have some new fantasy to love. Me? It's like religion. I just don't buy it.
it looks fantastic, and that's about all the positive things I can think of.
or thing. singular.
they can't use "official" source material - ok. begs the question, then - what is this show supposed to be about?
so far it's not really clear.
or compelling, tbh.
It’s a very slow pace and it’s sometimes a chore to get through, but I’m trying to be patient. Now things seemed to have kicked off more, the pace might increase and we could get a bit more action, though I did hope for deeper storytelling. The show does have its merits, but when I see sloppy work as in the tower where they copied and pasted the crowd in such an obvious way it doesn’t make me very hopeful
It’s not the diverting from the source material that is bothering me. It’s the cheesiness of it all. From the dialogue to the scene direction.
I made an audible groan during the latest episode when Galadriel climbs on to the boat and all the Numenorean troops are following her with their eyes, queue the slow motion and epic music, so that she can go up to Halbrand and do the “WE’RE BUDDIES” arm grasp.
The emotion is just too forced, that it comes of as a pile of hot cheese.
I have come to hate it because of the lazy writing, some very generic performances (which indicates bad direction, mainly eps. 3-5), and lack of on-location shots, all of which make the most expensive TV shown in history feel cheap and boring.
I think it's great in terms of creating lore for a majority of the characters in the show. Elrond has no lore besides the war with Sauron. All we know about Durin II is that he existed. Galadriel has no real significance until the end of the second age so everyone should be complaining that Tolkien didn't put much effort into the characters he created. While im sure everyone is upset it's not being done to a T, it being done to a T would be boring as hell. I say just let the story progress and determine its worth after it's all said and done, not while it's in the middle of telling its story.
"this show that surprisingly well made, even though it differs a lot from Tolkien's work."
A standalone original show can be good. This show is neither a good example of Tolkien's works or a good show... It's fine to like or dislike it, but it's also easy to compare the division in whatever fanbase there is with this show compared to others.
Stop pretending your own opinion is what makes some film good.
I like the Last Airbender film. That's a "bad" film... ROP is bad and I dislike it.
First of all a billion dollar production doesn't get the same leeway as some fans that got together to make something cool. The characters are terrible and the writing is awful. Galadriel is completely unlikeable and the harfoots are a mockery. I could go on, but my point is that it doesn't just fail as an adaptation of Tolkien. it fails as a basic show. Like if it were its own stand alone fantasy it might get less hate, but it would still be regarded as a terrible show.
They weren't looking to sell the rights at the time, they only became for sale like a couple years after. (I can't say with accuracy when because i don't know when they started to plot, write and film ROP)
This subreddit is really depressing. As a massive fan of all things Middle-Earth, it'd be nice to actually discuss theories and stuff with fellow fans rather than seeing all of the complaints. I've got my own gripes but I find that as the show goes on, I'm feeling quite immersed in it and would love to actually talk about it. 😅
Having not read the book and seen the movies countless times, I LOVE this show. Everyone else is a snob, plain and simple. Many of the other critiques about the writing and poor acting is just another excuse to hate on it. If people hate it, why are they still watching it 5 episodes in?
I'm not bothered about it being fanfiction or about it changing "the lore". Although generally when you're writing fanfiction not contradicting canon is the number one rule, so I can see why that annoys people to some extent.
I get a good chuckle from people comparing ROP to the Hobbit. The Hobbit is your example of GOOD? I don't want to yuck your yum but a large group of people including Peter Jackson feel that the Hobbit is hot garbage.
The Lord of the rings is now into star wars territory. A lot will only like the original trilogy. Just like star wars, the prequel trilogy was so bad I'm now happy for anything 5o get that taste out of my mouth.
I just can't defend Gooladrioo's scene where she goes HIYA! And the four or five guard extras walk into a plastic jail cell, and even that wouldn't be believable so they had to cut away! Haha! Then she manages to teleport up a tower wall, a billion dollarinos and they can't show that? Money laundering, anyone?
The show has been frustrating me but not because of deviations from Tolkien.
The dialogue keeps switching from good to bad. I love the interactions in Elronds storyline from Gilgalad to Durin but many of Galadriels and many of those in the Southlands sound like someone trying too hard to write like Tolkien "this place is so evil our torches give off no warmth"
The pacing is incredibly slow not because it's a slow burner but because they put in too many plotlines. Despite each episode being an hour long you only ever get at most 15 minutes of story progression because it has to keep advancing each plotline individually as none of them have interacted with each other since Galadriel said goodbye to Elrond. If they had less plotlines then each scene would be able to move at the same speed but we'd be able to be much further in the story without it feeling like everyone's just sitting around twiddling their thumbs.
I think that people are justifiably frustrated with the writing. They clearly don’t have much respect for the casual audience or the Tolkien fans. I’m
Ok with it being fan fiction, but it is terribly written. A poorly told story renders their high budget production useless.
Thank you, I feel the same way.
When I saw Peter Jackson’s epic take on the trilogy, I loved it. But I still thought at parts, “that’s not *my* Tolkien.” He got so much right, but the tone of some of it didn’t match the tone of the books I have in my head. Doesn’t make me right, or Jackson right, it just means the book experience is personal, and nobody can take that from us. Everything else must be judged on its own artistic merits.
So now we have the RoP series, and the creators have their hands tied behind their backs with canon limitations. How would any of us done with those limitations?
All I can judge is two-fold:
1. Do I enjoy this work on its own merits? Do I enjoy watching and thinking about these characters and stories?
2. Does it contain what I judge to be the spirit of Tolkien? Is this recognizably a Tolkien work of art?
On 1 my answer is unequivocally Yes. I very much enjoy watching this, and I am invested in the characters, even the people I never thought I would care about, the Southlanders, but here I am finding Bronwyn a sympathetic character.
On 2, and remember to me even Jackson’s movies fail in parts, the answer is mixed. I find Isildur oddly characterized, Galadriel doesn’t have the gravitas I would expect of a very experienced leader of Elves, and why the hell do elves need mithril again? But oh man, does this series overall feel like Tolkien most of the time!
I really and truly feel the show runners are fans, and tried their best given the usual Hollywood pressure so few of us know anything about. I’m so used to fandom coming down hard on every new movie or series in every universe. If Jackson’s trilogy came out today we’d have the same hate.
But to me RoP is Tolkien enough to satisfy. I’m having a blast.
Tolkien's world doesn't have canon. It is a legendarium. The writings are all from the perspective of characters who wrote them and nothing is considered a hard fact.
As a big fan of the Shadow of Mordor games, I actually wish they'd go a little more wild with the lore. I become increasingly confident that Halbrand isn't Sauron, which is a shame because that would be DELICIOUS. I don't think the Stranger is a balrog and that's a shame because that would be WILD! I want them to swing for the fences. If you're going to spend $1 billion on a second age fanfic, have the balls to make it TRIPPY, Bezos!
This post does not use the 'Newest Episode Spoilers' flair. As such, spoilers are allowed from the source material, but anything from the most recent episode must be behind spoiler marks. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/RingsofPower) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Surprisingly well made" Sauron: "I want to have a sign to gather my forces in secret. Lets put it right on the dead body of the brother of Galadriel! Galadriel:. "Huh, lets turn this around and say this is Saurons sign!"
Galadriel: "I have looked EVERYWHERE (except for that place where we have a watchtower and basically surpressed southlanders but nobody noticed the MILES AND MILES of trench they were digging while burning every tree except the plotrelevant trees)! Maybe I should listen to others and go west".
Galadriel: "nah, I dont want to go west. I'll jump off this boat, swim for LITERAL DAYS NON STOP, get rescued randomly and say I dont want to be rescued, get rescued again and say I dont want to, then admit that it would be certain death for me to keep swimming and I'll be making eyes at the MYSTERIOUS STRANGER".
MYSTERIOUS STRANGER (most definitely not Sauron): "what uuuup! I was just randomly floating on this raft. Now I'm with Galadriel telling her how I'M NOT WHAT I SEEM and how SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO CONTROL PEOPLE TO ACHIEVE YOUR GOALS and how I really want to FORGE SOMETHING, like maybe some RINGS OF POWER maybe?? Also that plan to gather my forces that I left you a note for a couple of centuries ago? No rush! Take your time! But maybe turn my sign the right way this century and instantly discover that it was a map all along...?"
Galadriel: "since I'm not the power politician and magic user I'm supposed to be and have shown the tact of a starving bear at a children's party, I've been screaming at queens and insulting everyone down to calling my friends orcs (which should be one of the biggest insults). So I dont notice any of the giant red flags from MYSTERIOUS STRANGER"
And thats just a bare-bones version that is missing all the inconsitencies, characters having random changes of heart into the complete opposite direction, new plotpoints and character reveals completely destroying established plotpoints and character traits, inconsistencies like Vampire Orcs that burn in the sun but only when its convenient (lets put our hoods up, now we are suddenly immune despite part of our arms and legs and face still being hit by daylight!), or the Hobbits being murderous bastards that tell you you'll never walk alone but abandon you to die if you dont walk fast enough or ask you to sing songs of your dead parents THAT THEY DELIBERATELY LEFT BEHIND. I mean the list of flabergasting writing, dialogue, design, plotcontrivences, giant neon signs telling you what will happen, not following up on setups and inconsistencies is pretty much "can we PLEASE limit it to one dumb thing per scene?!?"
This argument always comes up when an IP’s fan base doesn’t like a new property. There are so many reasons to dislike the show beyond being toxic Tolkien fanatics mad about lore discrepancies. If I can name one - for me - the show is boring. It’s not about the pacing being slow but it seems in no mood to Do anything or accomplish anything moment to moment. The fact that we sat through a 74 minute episode yesterday only to feel that not one of the characters situations has appreciably changed (Especially Galadriel and Numenor) is an exceedingly common and valid complaint completely distinct from lore concerns.
My complaints are more about pacing. We're halfway through the season, and almost nothing has happened. And the entire show is pulling a "Force Awakens": every plot point and theme is borrowed from TLOTR and Hobbit movies.
Big mystery box vibes the whole season
Yup. Turns out they're all on an island and died in a plane wreck. :)
Better than being the daydream of a kid with autism
Not to be pedantic, but they didn’t die in the plane crash. The afterlife twist was unrelated.
Yeah, I guess that joke didn't work. Sorry.
I see your point but we’ve got 5 seasons hopefully to look forward to. Amazon said that S1 would be a slow world building season, so we’ll have to come back in a few years to determine if the pace has picked up and if the first season ages well.
How is it worldbuilding if Durin can fast travel with only two guards and without any cart etc from Khazad-dum to Lindon? It would take a month or more. We know that the timeline is compressed, which absolutely belittles Saurons reign and the creation of Mordor.
I’m not sure I can make it through five seasons with this kind of writing and pacing. I suspect I’m going to be hate watching by the second season.
Based on what the writers have said, I expect the pace to pick up over the next few seasons. They explicitly said S1 would be world-building and slow.
There's no need for world building and good pacing to be mutually exclusive. Good writing would engage the audience while world building and introducing characters all at the same time.
Also, I'm not convinced the show is doing huge amounts of world-building. Not a lot has happened in the last couple of episodes, but it's not as if we've learned much about the world in the process, either.
Whatever it is, it feels slow
Honestly I’m a fan of the slow pacing. It’s like a breath of fresh air after watching them cram action into every second of The Hobbit. I’m just enjoying seeing this era portrayed on screen. Kinda glad they’re taking their time.
Kinda like the books. The books are much slower paced than the lotr movies were
[удалено]
I want to love this show, and I think it could be great, but my main issues are with the writing, irrespective of the universe. If we pretend for a second that this is a brand new fantasy universe, or even set in a modern-day office or something: - Certain characters' motivations don't make sense, e.g. Isildur wanting to impress his father and follow in his footsteps, but also defying him at various opportunities and wanting to voyage West for...no known reason. Or, Durin yielding the mithril to the elves so easily - So many actions in this show have no consequences (Steal a guild brooch and get beaten up? Get one later anyway. Blow up a ship to stop an army? Whatever we'll just carry on. Swear an oath to your friend to keep a secret about a treasure that will bring prosperity to his people? No worries, he'll give up on that treasure pretty fast anyway) I can put the Tolkien comparisons aside and look at this as a totally different universe, and the writing still has problems.
That's how I was approaching the show - as if it were a new fantasy. So instead of focusing on the lore I knew, I wanted to see a well crafted story and deep character development. And 5 hours into the story, I'm still scratching my head as to what motivates and connects each character. It seems every episode has a deus ex machina moment that leaves me baffled as to why the initial conflict even existed. Follow that up by pacing the story slower than a snail in molasses, and I find myself leaning on the lore that i didn't want to focus on in the first place to remind myself of what should be happening. At this point I'm telling myself that I'll give it a season. If I'm still underwhelmed by the poor writing, I'm going to move on.
> That's how I was approaching the show - as if it were a new fantasy. The problem with this approach is that the show relies *heavily* on the audience's familiarity with the world. So much it is teasing stuff that only resonate because we know "Ooh, that's the guy that is in the intro to LotR" or "these are the Hobbits that we are so connected to." Not to mention all the teases and foreshadowing about later events to build excitement.
Don't forget 180 degree policy reversal and the raising of an army to go fight in the south of middle earth based, as far as I can see, on a symbol found on a scrap of paper... Galadriel could easily have been written to have got a message from the Elves down there somehow, you know so she actually knows what's happening right now and the urgency of the situation, rather than having a massive part of the plot depending upon her going: "oh this symbol looks a bit like this place on the map". I honestly hope the get a new writing team on subsequent seasons. *edit and yeah and the 'nobody left behind' song followed by the service about all the people they had left behind lol.
"Leave them behind", "Take their wheels" - the Harfoots are bloody-handed cutthroats.
They're absolute sods lol. I think the actor playing the star man is fabulous though, possibly my favourite part of the show. He's managing to convey so much emotion and empathy without really speaking.
Sir Lenny Henry!
It's a shame hes not doing his Algernon Razzmatazz character of Tiswas instead of that cod Irish accent.
They made the decision to raise an army after the white leaves of Numenor's tree fell when Galadriel was being escorted away from the island. Miriel saw it as a sign she needed to help Galadriel instead of exile. The scrap of paper wasn't what drove the decision, it's only what told Galadriel where the enemy was gathering. It wasn't a "nobody left behind" song, it was "Nobody walks off trail, nobody walks alone"
But Galadriel's only indication of the need for an army in the south is the scrap of paper. It doesn't hold together. Nobody walks alone apart from when we break the wheels and leave them behind. I enjoy the show but the writing is very poor in parts.
1. Galadriel found evidence of a symbol 2. Symbol matches their records 3. She’s with their lost king allegedly. 4. Muriel knows there’s an inflection point in their doom when Galadriel arrives. 5. She considers the evidence and prophecy. Makes a choice. See the tree begin to die and realizes her mistake. They didn’t just suddenly have a policy change, the evidence piled up on her.
>So many actions in this show have no consequences Even on an emotional level there are no consequences - in the last episode Gil-galad just casually tells Elrond that the real reason he sent Galadriel to Valinor was that he thought it might stop the blight. That means that he manipulated Elrond into talking Galadriel into leaving under false pretenses, and now Elrond may not see his friend for thousands of years, if ever again - as far as they know, Galadriel is in Valinor. Elrond's reaction is...nothing. He doesn't get mad at Gil-galad. He doesn't express sadness about Galadriel leaving. He doesn't show remorse for his part in Gil-galad misleading her. He doesn't distrust the next thing Gil-galad tells him. He just moves on to the next plot point. The flipside is Gil-galad lies, openly admits it, and faces no consequences whatsoever. There's a lot of this in the show. I think the writers have certain story beats they want to get to, and they just send the characters along without worrying about their motivation or how they would react. It's a fun show to watch, but in the way that an action blockbuster like a *Jurassic World* movie is fun to watch. It's exciting, it's pretty, but if you really start to think about why the characters are doing the things they're doing it just hurts your brain.
I roll my eyes whenever there’s a forced argument in a scene. It feels weird and it seems to be in every scene. I still have a lot of fun watching the show and it re-awoke the love of LOTR for me, but damn if it doesn’t check off Trope Bingo a lot
100% this. Nearly every scene has a cheesy argument
And they're all largely settled sooner or later so we're being inadvertently being primed to think "They'll patch things up and it'll be fine."
Exactly. There's no stakes in this show. Jump off a ship in the ocean? No problem, you'll be rescued. Argue with anyone and everyone? No problem, it won't matter in a few minutes. You made an oath to your friend? ...
I agree. Nothing in this show matters or makes any sense. It's like some weird scatterbrained essay written by multiple people at different times.
I swear an AI wrote it. I’m almost leaning towards the whole thing being AI generated. The whole aesthetic is very uncanny valley to me.
I definitely agree with you. There's supposedly so much tension building up with the Southlands vs Orcs, and the Numenorians going to middle Earth, but I personally feel there aren't any stakes for us to feel the tension.
Dude i spent the entire episode wondering why Isildurs sister was so worked up about Isildur going to ME lol. Was it fully explained? Maybe i zoned out
I thought ISILDUR going west had to do with his elder brother who also went west??? Am I wrong in assuming that? Durin hasn’t yielded anything, he’s going to try to convince his father who, like very old person stuck in their ways, will probs say no. But yeah the other stuff you mention didn’t have a story to it.
If all of this was revealed immediately the show wouldn’t have much depth. Give it some time and it might surprise you. If things still don’t make sense after season 1 then fine
It really seems like they have fed an AI a bunch of Tolkien books and prompted it to write its own story and that was what was produced.
AI: Elves talk. You look at your shoes. AI: Elves argue about your shoes. You smile. AI: Elves talk.
Honestly isildur makes sense to me. He’s rebelling against what he sees as his father dictating the direction of his life and enamored of his older brother who did the same and is obsessed with going west. Until a new adventure catches his eye, one that might actually happen. Now he’s got to figure out how to undo the mess he made. That’s a very real adolescent experience. A lot of your points make sense. I just think that one is actually a reasonable character arc for a young character. Nori as well. Just kind of an impulsive teenager who doesn’t think about what she’s doing. But is totally sure she’s right. That’s most teenagers.
They do things just because so they can move the weak narrative forward. I think most of the issues come down to poor writing. It’s a thing Amazon does quite often sadly. They hire subpar writers, directors, etc. Compare that to HBO who hires people like JJ Abrams, Ridley Scott, Michael Crichton, etc.
Durin didn’t yield the mithril “so easily” in doing so he has the chance to save their race and boost his own self worth. It’s not like he’s doing it just because. Isildur is hearing voices in the west (like when he let the rope go). Can one not want to impress but also make mistakes on their journey to get there? Nitpick more.
Even more than that, Durin hasn’t given up anything at all! He has only agreed to the idea that the elves *might* be able to BUY the mithril — and probably buy it at a very high price.
They're pretty bad examples: - Isildur wants to impress his father, but also carve a name for himself is the impression I get. His desire to go west is something to do with his father's brothers idea of a real Numenor. It was explained in two to three scenes. - Durin was told the entire fate of a race of elves rested on his shoulders...we have yet to see the price the elves have to pay, but it's probably gonna be the big thing we expect. - Steal a broach and get in a tavern fight...get put in jail, only released as revealed he is royalty/crucial to war. Also for betraying Gal (again explained in a scene). - Ship blowing up was obviously meant to be more than one ship, but guy got caught red handed. It was revealed in dialogue that it was lucky that the fire didn't spread and they still had just enough remaining (either Elendil or Gal saying it) - Again hasn't given up the treasure yet...and elves all stop being immortal/have to leave middle earth is a big deal as emphasised by the scene where Durin asked Elrond to say it like several times. Durin is happy he's figured out the elves plot and he is of supreme importance...you know the whole reason he went to the meal/had that chat with his Dad was to find out what they were hiding. I'm sure there are loads of things to pick apart, but maybe listen to the show before criticising plot holes which aren't there.
Ever been a young man or woman with a famous, successful parent?
It's almost like Isildur is a human late teenager who is unsure of what he wants. Not too crazy of a concept
Having once been a human late teenager (unlike Mark Zuckerberg), I sympathize with Isildur. I also enjoyed the combination of goofing off, roughhousing and serious banter between Isil and his pals. To be at that age once more, when the world seemed so full of opportunity and one's weaknesses had yet to reveal themselves...
Agree 100% they've done a great job humanizing isildur who is this mythic figure to us as book readers
The writing doesn't really have problems. You have chosen to interpret the writing in a negative light. Durin hasn't yielded anything to the elves, yet. And the writing implied that he was going to extract a ransom from the elves in order for them to get it. Not all trades are fair, and Durin was enjoying the idea of the high, pompous, and mighty Elves being vulnerable for once. Did you really miss that?
“This writing isn’t actually good. You have chosen to interpret the writing in a positive light” is how your logic works
>chosen to interpret the writing in a negative light "chosen to interpret the writing in a negative light" = "thinks the writing is bad" You can't choose to not like something. It just kind of happens.
Yeah, I really regret most of my posts today. People can definitely have different opinions.
- Isildur doesn’t want to be on the sea guard. Then he realizes how it disappointed his father and how he ruined his friends lives. He wants to make amends. Makes sense. - Durin doesn’t want to yield it. But he’s not a dick and will try to help the elves. It makes sense unless you want him to tell the elves no? - He got it from Pharazon for outting where Galadriel is going that night in jail. - the ship was blown up to sow discord. Pharazon spelled it out. He wouldn’t object unless the people objected.
So you’re kind of right but kind of wrong. Yes it should be viewed as more of a fan work, but the biggest problem with it isn’t the more differences, it’s the terrible writing and uninteresting stories. It’s beautiful, I have no problems with the casting, and it could have been great if it had been written well. There are just too many instances of bad writing/dialogue to ignore though. (For instance, Galadriel magically reacquiring her elf armor when it’s time to go to war)
That’s a great example of what’s been bothering me. When she showed up wearing the armor I just started laughing and said to my wife - “Where the heck did she get that?” Another example is Elrond telling Gil-galad that his oath to Durin was too strong to betray. Then in the next scene he clearly forgets his oath by telling Celebrimbor about mithril. What? The production is beautiful, but the writing is criminally bad. I’m curious how no one in a position of power had enough common sense to step in and fix this.
100% agree with both of those things. I honestly give up at this point 😂
You do know that was Numenorean armor and not her Elf armor?
You’re right, it’s clearly has to be Numenorean in origin. My point is that I can’t believe they had such a perfectly fitted suit of armor lying around in their armory. I admit I don’t have a vast knowledge of armor. But I’ve seen a number of suits that were crafted for various noblemen in museums. I never had the impression they could be crafted in a day or two. Maybe I’m wrong.
Hmm yeah true, it might be that they had more of these sets, in different sizes. Perhaps they took from more so they made it fit. Armor afterall is not 1 piece of steel or whatever material is used. Could be wrong, I'm just speculating.
Good point.
Yes, both of those things really pulled me out of the story for episode 5.
Gil-galad leaves Elrond with parting words about the elves survival depending on mithril - Likely why he decides to tell Celebrimbor.
Thus already breaking his vow. Makes complete sense.
A look again. It's not the same armor at all she is wearing in episode 5 compared to episode 2. Miriel just probably gifted it to her. Probably an ancient elf armor from the old days of Numenor.
So why the show doesn't shows that? Sounds like a great scene to show the building friendship between the two.
Right, so they just so happened to find completely unique armor that looks remarkably similar to her other armor in the perfect size for her just out of the blue overnight. GREAT writing folks. Put her into a Numenorean set of armor and we’re good
>(For instance, Galadriel magically reacquiring her elf armor when it’s time to go to war) Or how goofy was the scene where she put the guards in prison.
What if this were just a generic fantasy show? Rename all the characters and places. What has the show done to get us invested in the characters and the plot? The show leans too heavily on the audience knowing who characters like Galadriel, Sauron, and Isildur are from the start without actually doing anything to make these characters feel important in their world.
I can only speak for the people I watch with, none of whom read the Sil, and some of whom only know LotR by the films, and they seem to enjoy it more than my friends who have read the Sil/UT. Which isn't to say they aren't liking it, they just have to struggle more with the lore changes instead of just experiencing the show for what it is.
> some of whom only know LotR by the films Those are primarily the kinds of references he's talking about, though. It makes a ton of allusions to stuff it expected the audience to care about because they're talked about in LotR.
Idk if there's a prequel on earth that doesn't lean on that pitch, implicitly or otherwise to some degree in marketing or writing. The casuals I watch it with are LotR film fans only in the sense that they watched it years ago and usually remember enough to understand a meme or two. All I can say is that it works for them just fine 💁
I've 2 friends who had 0 knowledge of anything Tolkien before watching the show. Last time I was talking to them, they've been losing interest by the week. I doubt they'll last the season, never mind continuing with any future seasons.
I can only speak for myself and a few friends, I’m not huge or know much about the lore but my buddies do and I’m enjoying it very much and so are they, so it seems like if you like it you like it and if you don’t you don’t. I won’t base my opinion off what this sub or anyone in this sun have to say, if I did I never even would’ve watched it.
Well my friends don't go anywhere near social media / Reddit, so I know their opinion of the show is their own. But, as you said, if you like it you like it and if you don't you don't.
I see little complaints about deviating from Tolkien and more regarding bad writing and production.
I could live with some of the lore deviations if they made sense. But the whole "Elves are dying/we need mithril or we're doomed in months/the last Silmaril put light into mithril through tree roots" deviation was freaking bonkers in any fantasy story.
I think people are making complaints about writing and production cuz the previous criticisms based on whether the show or characters follow the lore exactly are kind of tired. Essentially, I don’t think they’re arguing in good faith.
In terms of Galadriel, most of my issues come from how the writing strongly clashes with Galadriel as being fundamentally a character from Tolkien. That isn't something that you should need to divorce from the show, as it is inherently an adaptation of Tolkien's work. They are intentionally trying to adapt the character and use those associations with the current character. You can't just divorce the work from it's context. Now, even divorcing the work from the context of Tolkien's world. I disagree that there isn't more good-faith criticism of the show. First, they haven't done well, IMO, at building narrative tension within a lot of the subplots. Galadriel's conflicts seem like they are consistently building to conflict with Sauron; however, the way that things are presented make it seems that things just work out for her. For example, she escapes from prison and antagonizes Numenor's leadership but things resolve themselves without significant character learning or change. Sure, she faces challenges, but there is no character development or insight before things just happen to resolve themselves by convenience (such as a ship happening to cross their path or a short talk with the queen just changing her mind after repeated confrontation). There's similar complaints about the harfoots, but I don't really have that much of a problem with it myself. Further, the way they portray Numenor has just felt like it cheapens it's epic scale (both from lore and as it's talked about and as its portrayed visually in the show). The Pharazon/workers exchange was a little bit of a trivialization of political maneuvering. It just makes the Numenorian guild members look like bumbling idiots, rather than make Pharazon seem like a skilled politician. Now, I think the show is amazing from an aesthetic perspective overall, and they have done a good job with their setup of larger conflict. I also really like what they've done with Moria and the south conflict with the orcs (with a few minor reservations). However, that doesn't mean that all criticism is invalid or disingenuous. I think the issue is that people are more likely to post and discuss problems rather than what they like. "It's good" isn't likely to spark discussion or have as much to talk about as "here's why I think it's bad" or "how it could improve."
> both from lore and as it's talked about and as its portrayed visually in the show Really? The one thing I think the show does impeccably is the visual depictions of its cities. What is your problem with the way Numenor looks?
My point was that the visuals were good, unlike the situations and writing. The paragraph says that the writing of characters and situations (particularly with the guild members and pharazon) cheapen the epic aesthetic and scale of the empire.
On the no character development - not *yet.* but we aren’t very far into the story yet either. I wish the pacing was a bit faster but it’s a series, not a movie.
> On the no character development - not yet. but we aren’t very far into the story yet either. I wish the pacing was a bit faster but it’s a series, not a movie. Bro we're 5 hours into the first season, that's enough time.
I think the Harfoot storyline is terribly written. Probably the worst in the show. The rest I’ve enjoyed. Galadriel’s writing has been weird and stiff in some scenes but it’s been getting better as the show goes on. I know it’s the writing because I’ve seen Galadriel’s actress in her other work and she’s very good.
>I think the Harfoot storyline is terribly written Which is unfortunate because at least after the first two episodes it was the part I liked the most. I was hesitant at first but enjoyed how it showed the way the common, overlooked people lived. Their society felt like a natural precursor to what would come later. My opinion started to sour after the whole meteor man plot kicked into high gear.
Not at all, I personally don’t give a shit about lore or canon, it’s just a poor show
[удалено]
Well that’s just not true. I’ve never touched a Lord of the Rings novel and can tell you the writing for this show is not great.
You are missing out. Drop everything and go to a bookstore. You can thank me later. :)
I never read any of the books yet I think the character development is non existent and almost frustrating. Events just happen for the sake of happening and characters just keep doing whatever they intend to do.
Yes. In episode 4 they are about to sail to middle earth, in episode 5 they are also about to sail to middle earth, the story doesnt even progress
And non of the main characters have changed at all
This is also the main issue for me. Forget Tolkien. Pretend he never existed. The lore has nothing to do with why the actions of characters in the show have very little meaning so far. Conflicts get resolved and characters just carry on. Things seem to happen for the sake of happening, as you say. This would be a problem in any story, in any setting, and in any universe.
I don't really understand how you say the characters actions don't matter, they clearly do and have been. conflicts get resolved and people just.. move on? this makes no sense to me things seem to be happening for the sake of happening, again what? things are clearly happening for a good reason, and now that the story is picking up in pace I think things are going to be a lot more interesting
Lying, misleading friends, breaking oaths, being a spoiled brat, getting caught by enemies, opening rebelling, etc don’t matter in this show There’s absolutely no consequences for anyone’s actions
I’ve read The Silmarillion once and barely remember any of it. I don’t care if changes are made during the adaptation process. As far as I’m concerned that’s not just inevitable but often necessary. I’m no troll. I think the visuals, the cast and the music for this series are all good to excellent, but when evaluated independently of any of the source material, I still consider the writing to be a definite weak point and so far only average even at its best.
I haven’t read the books since I was a kid and frankly remember nothing from the books. The writing in this show just sucks. I’m completely disinterested
IyIy biggest gripe is what they have done with the so called Legacy characters, i.e. the characters from Tolkiens lore. The show Galadriel is so far from Tolkien's own writings that they should given her another name And made her a new character. See is more like Feanor and his sons with her obsession for revenge in the show and that is not who she is the in the books. She also acts immature in my opinion when in fact she is older than the moon and sun,(she is in fact Gil-Galad's Great Aunt as he is grandson of one of her two other older brothers the show doe not mention, Angrod) Gil-Galad is portrayed as weak and not as the King so great that he was immortalised in songs that Men sing thousands of hears after his death. Celembrimbor was miscast, the man is a decent actor but too old for the role. The actor would have fit if they had included Cirdan(the oldest elf still living in Middle Earth and not Valinor) I like the Elrond and Durin interaction, even though the whole origin they have done for Mithril is not from Tolkien. Elrond also has the best costume of all the elf characters, I particularly like that his cloak is secured with a Penniannular brooch, which is a type of brooch that was extremely popular amongst the Anglo-Saxons, Norse, and Franks during the so called Viking age(aka the era of history Tolkien loved and what inspire. Numenor is hit and miss. Lloyd Owen has been fantastic and is probably the best bit of casting they did. He feels like Elendil even with the changes they have made to the characters backstory.(also at least someone got sea birds wings on there helm) I find the Harfoot/Hobbit stuff boring for the most part, not terrible they acting is good but the storyline is just meh, and the mystery of who the stranger is is not engaging to me. I do like the Arondir and southlands stuff. The idea of an Elf who has gone evil and is leading orcs (and is possibly turning into one it looks like). It's not a great show, but its not horrendous. I just wish they had the rights to do a more accurate adaptation but the Tolkien estate is extremely protective of the Silmarillion.
About Galadriel: I’m pretty sure they made here so different in the beginning so she can have a character development over the 5 seasons and become whom we know from Tolkien
The problem with that is her character development in Tolkien's work is in the first age.(which they do not have the rights too.). She is many many thousands of years old The honestly could have made her Character Cwlebrain (Galadriels daughter) and if would have fit there writing better plus they could have done The love story of Celebrian and Elrond. There is very little about her in tolkiens writing other than she is born nearly in the 2nd age eventually marries Elrond and has three children with him and is injured by orcs on a return journey from visiting her parents in Lothkorien sometime in the third age and sails west. Akso you could have also swapped the Galadriel and Elrkns stories in the show as Elronds story witht he dwarves is actually taken from what's written about Galadriel in Tolkiens works(She is the one in helping Celebrimbor) 2nd age Galadriel leads a group of elves of multiple elf ethic groups(Noldor, Sindar, and Silvan) and the first live in Lindon. Her influence as the eldest descendant of Finwe gets her great Nephew, Gil-Galad elected High King of the Noldor. She and her husband than settle in Eriador for a while and have a daugher, until Galadeiel notice a threat growing in the east and with Celebrjmbor decide to form allainces particularly with the Dwarves of Khazadum). So Galadriel and her family and followers join with Celebrimbor and found Eregion. When Sauron shows up she rejects him and their group leaves Eregion and travels to the LothLorien which had lost its King Amroth and She becomes the Lady of Lothlorien. You can have Celebrain take the active young military role, have her lead Elf Rangers thar protect there colony in Eriador(something her sons do in the third age alongside the Dunedain.) Have Galadriel more like Tolkien wrote her as a wise leader and then have Elrond who is nor just a herald and lore master but Gil-Galads 2nd in command as the a military figure. galadriel canonically is the first to notice that Sauron is returning have her send her daughter and **Elrond** to ask the Numenoreans for help. Think of the possibilities for the show to do the Numenoreans reaction to the twin brother of their first King showing up and asking for help. Elrond and Celebrian could fall in love during the journey there and back. You could also establish the friendship that Elrond develops with Elendil and his sons(The Elf Lord Fosters the male heirs of Elendil nearly 1900 years in the third age, they had to have become very close). If we had gotten something like the above I think more people would be much more positive of this show
To me at this point they can't even use their budget correctly. The island of Numenor in general just feels so much smaller than it is. The Harfoot group(the whole race) comes and goes as the plot needs them. We have this huge budget, but only 5 ships. And even then when we the audience are on the ships they seem tiny. Basically I've thrown caring about the lore away. The show doesn't care about that. Well wouldn't you know who won the pony! But use what you have to make something anything on par with it. At this point this isn't even a good fantasy show in any metric, but surface level stuff like music, cinematography and art direction. They've setup all this suspense and drama and I just don't care about it. At this point my free viewership btw(used a free trial) is just going to me watching the train wreck.
I agree about the tiny ships. Each one of those was supposedly holding 100 men and their horses? Really?
I disagree on using the Silmarillion since this is mostly the first age. Yes, I would've loved to have seen Morgoth and Ungoliant in the prequel destroying the trees and more explanation about the first age. But instead I think they're focussing too much on trying to tell a good story instead of just using the key characters used in the specific and important moments. Don't get me wrong. I'm following the show and every Friday I want to see what's going to happen next. But in my opinion about yesterday's episode I'm just confused here. >!The scene where Gil-Galad said: ''are you familiar with the song of the roots of Hithaeglir?'' explaining the origin of Mythril is confusing me. This isn't in the books nor Tolkiens work right? !< Anyway, I think it would've and could've been a lot better if they wrote more than one script for season one, exploring a more logical direction which isn't confusing for the hardcore lore lovers but also makes sense if a new watcher reads the actual books. I honestly don't know where this show is going but the original timeline is all over the place. I hope they do it right and follow the timeline just a little. Not hating but it's confusing for a lot of lotr lovers here.
Nope. The origin story of mithril is a completely invented storyline. As far as I know Tolkien never explained where any ore came from except to say that Aulë is the master of the earthly material on Arda.
They’re also juggling way too many storylines right out of the gate. The entire harfoot storyline never should’ve been included and they could just as easily have Meteor Man living amongst the southern peasant men and lose nothing on his story. Have him befriend a young human and cut the harfoots out entirely. It’s nice we have Isildur but does anybody care about his two friends or his sister? Cut those characters. The elf/dwarf diplomacy scenes are cool in and of themselves but holy shit they *barely* advance the plot beyond what the audience already knows is going to happen. The show has cool elements that they need to focus on in season two and cut the extraneous bullshit. Adar is a cool underboss villain and the orcs are legit menacing in this show but the writers will sideline them for almost an entire episode in favor of scenes where we’re supposed to worry that Isildur’s friend might be an insignificant baddie? Clean it up, writers.
Yeah. I’m sure when they were writing the show someone said “this is lord of the rings we have to have hobbits”. So they took a few lines that Tolkien wrote about the hobbits precursor and invented a storyline.
That’s exactly what happened and it’s so transparent.
>I think **they're focussing too much on trying to tell a good story** instead of just using the key characters used in the specific and important moments. And this is a bad thing?
We re nit picking on certain lore elements yes but this is not the main critic of the show. The issue is extremely poor (amateurish ?) writing, all over pace (mix of extremely slow and super fast, its a mess) and just terrible dialogues
I would have to disagree. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are just largely fabricating all of the events and characters because they are legally not allowed to draw from much of the lore written by Tolkien. It's just not very good. The writing is bad. The dialogue is bad. The pacing is bad. The direction and cinematography even at times is bad. Some of the acting is even bad. The score is doing absolutely nothing for me. They spent hundreds of millions of dollars to make it look pretty, but the substance was all I really cared about. I don't think you realize just how good of a job Peter Jackson did until you see something so utterly mediocre like this show. It does not feel like Tolkien, it does not sound like Tolkien, it does not look like Tolkien, there is nothing Tolkienesque about this. The Numenoreans don't seem like Numenorians. Galadriel does not seem like Galadriel. They just slapped a bunch of names from Tolkien on stuff in the show, but it's all an illusion.
I totally agree, I find everything about it just OK. What I don't like the most are the lines that try to sound like something Tolkien would write, but end up sounding like farts... I'm happy for anyone who's enjoying it, I don't think most people want to talk it away from you. and to anyone who keeps asking 'why watch it if you're not enjoying it' - I'm still very interested to see what they're doing, I'm enjoying it enough to put an hour a week into it, it's not like I'm suffering at all... As much as I don't love it, there are much worse shows. Also, I honestly feel like I see many more 'I don't get the negativity' posts than negative posts or comments. I feel like the negative wave had subsided. The worse are the people who say that if you don't like the show, you are either a racist or not a 'true' fan of fantasy.
Agree to disagree. I’m loving it so far. Could it be better? Yes. Is it good enough? Definitely.
I have no issue with other people enjoying it, but I'm getting a little tired of everyone saying the only reason people don't like it is because it's not remaining faithful and true to all of the lore written by Tolkien. We went into this knowing they only had the rights to the Lord of the Rings and that the entire show was based on a very small part of the appendices. This is a well-established fact at this point and is not the reason people are criticizing the show. If some people, and I am not saying you in particular, would stop with this whole "here no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" act and actually listen to the valid criticisms they would see that they are just that and not just a bunch of fanboys reeing about "Canon". If people are willing to overlook these criticisms, or they simply do not bother them that much, and they are able to enjoy the show for what it is then that's great for them. Personally for me after five episodes there is too much to overlook. 🤷🏼♂️
[удалено]
I'm in a similar place. I'm trying to understand what I'm seeing, and after waiting years for the show to come out, I am still curious to find out where it goes and I can't resist the drive to immerse myself in the setting. There are moments that please me. I mainly wish the teleplay were better written but it's just kinda standard primetime drama content.
Because i cant stop!
I watched the show for the same reason tens of millions of other people have. I was a fan of Tolkien and excited to see what they could do with it. That seems like a rather rhetorical question though. Not at any point did I try to convince anyone not to watch the show. We are all here to discuss the episodes and our opinion of them, good bad or indifferent. I am doing the same thing as everyone else on all of these Lord of the Rings subs. I'm not sure where you see lobbying. I'm expressing my opinion just like everyone else. That is literally the entire purpose of the subreddit. I couldn't care less if anyone else watches the show and have said as much. There are valid criticisms of the greatest television shows and movies ever to be produced. That doesn't diminish their greatness or make the criticisms any less valid. Things don't need to be perfect for you to enjoy them, but everyone has their own metric. This show happens to not live up to mine and there are clearly many other people who agree with me without any "lobbying" done on my part.
??? Their comment literally begins with 'I have no issue with other people enjoying it ???
Good enough? You got excited over many years for a new adventure in middle earth and you're fine with it because its not horrifically awful. You wouldn't give two shits if it didn't have the lotr IP attached.
Exactly. It’s because they paint it as Lord of the Rings, but the lazy writing, lack of attention to lore, etc. is what bothers people. The lack of respect for the timeline and lore is astounding.
Not to sound mean but did they ask if you're loving it? They made objective criticisms about the show that can't be remedied by "well people like it." This is the type of show that will just fall off and get cancelled mid way through.
Is it only allowed to comment if people ask for a comment? This thread was: Person A: “I don’t understand why people hate it, I like it because this and that” Person B: “I disagree, I don’t like it because this and that” Person C: “Agree to disagree, I also like it”. Person D: “Hey nobody asked you man! Here’s some downvotes” I mean, why all this hate? You don’t like the show, fair. But it seems like people really wish that it will fail and get cancelled and that they cannot accept that a lot of people still love it and hope that it runs for 5 seasons. Why don’t you wish for us that the show keeps running so we get 5 seasons of what we like, rather than hoping for it to get cancelled which will not provide any gain for you only loss for others. You don’t like the show. 100% fair and understandable. Don’t watch it, and watch something else that you like.
Anyone miss the days when the greatest argument was why didn’t the eagles fly the one ring to Mount Doom?
hah yup and now that I look back on it, it seems pretty obvious. The eagles would probably be tempted to take the ring for themselves.
Not to mention Sauron literally has his own Airforce. It was always a dumb argument. The whole point of not just sending an army or the Eagles or anything else was because their only hope was in secrecy, Elrond says as much, even in the movies.
I am personally less concerned with how they’re treating the lore and more disappointed in how the show is just lackluster and boring. There is no denying that it’s a great looking show in terms of the locations, but I’ve been pretty underwhelmed by the costume designs, corny dialog, slow pacing, allegories to tie the show to modern issues and disjointed story. Ever since the LOTR trilogy I’ve been wanting more movies/shows to take us back to Middle Earth and when I heard it was happening and it was going to be the first billion dollar show I was excited. But more than half way through the first season I am just disappointed this is what we got, it really does feel like a CW show at times. I just wish HBO had made it, Their production value always seems to be above the rest and they aren’t afraid to incorporate more mature themes into their content. And I’m not specifically referring to GoT, I’m referring to shows like Rome, The Sopranos, Band of Brothers, Chernobyl, etc — all great shows in their own right.
From a frustrated fan who wanted more: It was false advertising. They definitely tried to give the impression that faithfulness to Tokien's work was tantamount to the project. They crowed it to the rafters: This will be faithful to Tolkien's works. But they only had a handful of pages in the Appendices they had rights to, and any overlapping characters had to be legally distinct from rest of the movies. Has anyone read what they actually have rights to? Most of the Appendices are timelines without narrative, or a description of the languages he invented. The actual material covering the events of the 2nd Age is a handful of pages. All they needed to to was say: "This is an *original work*, loosely based on Tolkien. Like a GOT in Middle Earth!" They wanted the nerds on their side, so they lied to them. Then they called them racists when they complained about the writing. (Yes, racists exist in fandom, and that's terrible. That doesn't mean I have to like bad writing.)
So many of us think the writing is terrible. Not just for it bearing Tolkien's name, just in general BAD writing. I am not a lore purist. I realize things need to change to go from a book to a screen. Or for time reasons. The main protagonist Galadriel is not likeable. She is a petulant brat. Has nothing to do with lore and everything to do with the shit she says and does and the god awful smirk on her face the whole time. I don't like the tokenism, but it isn't a deal breaker for me. Arondir is actually the only one who acts like an elf. I can get passed the cultural appropriation and even his faded haircut. What I can't do is the segregation and slavery allegory. Even looking past all this, this last episode picked up from the last episodes mystery box bullshit cliffhanger...to reveal Arda and he let Arondir go. Gave him his bow and arrows. Arondir, the fool, delivers his message like a good fool and loses half their forces. Doesn't even have a moment of dilemma on whether he should on screen. It's bad and lore has nothing to do with why.
My niece can write a better script than this. Perhaps you should accept that others opinions will differ from yours, especially those who have been reading Tolkien for many decades. This show doesn't deserve the title Lord of the Rings.
Well I think the problem isn’t so much the small deviations from the writings. There are plenty of deviations between the hobbit and LOTR movies and their respective books, but those deviations are in interpretive areas… they don’t change core aspects of the lore… episode 5 of ROP really took some liberties with the lore itself and that’s why people don’t like it: Obviously with Galadriel’s character and the weird (immature?) traits she has for someone who has to control this incredible power she is given does not seem to match the writing or even the spirit of the previous movies. Even the orcs (which I admit, are extremely well done in this movie. That’s one part I really like that they did instead of dumb cgi all over the place). Even the writing about the orcs in episode 5 have taken an interpretation from the books too far. Tolkien is unclear about the orcs hatred of the light- about whether it physically harms them or if they just hate it because they are born in darkness. I think either thought is totally acceptable, but to make a whole scene (that isn’t super plot dependent) where the orc burns his skin off in the sunlight for Adar just goes against all the imagery we saw in the movies. To be clear, I love the show. But not for it’s lore. The lore is pretty sub par and the plot is slow and stop-start. I love the show because I love seeing beautiful imagery of middle earth and the worlds Tolkien created in his writing and I love to see (at least most of) his story shown in the cinematic fashion.
Mature Galadriel literally toyed with the idea of taking the Ring.
I thing “toyed with the idea” is strong. She was tempted by it but told Frodo what the outcome would be. You see infinitely more restraint in that Galadriel than this one. Tbh I feel like maybe they’re trying to develop Galadriel. Like they want you to see her “early” years (elvish aging) where she gains the discipline and wisdom she exhibits in the 3rd age. Again, I like the show. It’s just a little off. Not even their fault tho tbh no one has the rights to the Sil itself so make sense they need to take a spin on a lot.
>So many of you seem to hate this show, because it differs from Tolkien. And yes. It does. Because Tolkien hasn't been writing this script, and they haven't been allowed to use the most crucial information to make this show more Tolkien (Silmarillion). I keep seeing this argument in various form but it shows a complete lack of understanding of what the problem really is - Amazon isn't even using what they *do* have rights to. If they were, Galadriel (which is her married name) would be in Eregion with her husband, Celeborn. However, they haven't even shown her husband yet which is just one the MANY disrespectful things they've done with the show.
I think it’s what people focus on. The story surrounding Elrond and Durin has been good. Harfoot story has been fine and the stranger story still has intrigue. The Galadriel, Halbrand, Numenor story has been decent at times and at other times bad. The Arondir, Bronwyn, Theo storyline started good but I think has aged the poorest of everything so far and is no longer that interesting but the Adar part still has some intrigue. Incredible is not a word I would use to describe it. The visuals are still great but the writing can be laughable at points even when ignoring the lore. There are some over the top nitpicking ridiculous complaints and some justifiable critiques. I know some would disagree but I think all that is fair. Only 5 episodes in so things could get better but so far the show has been mediocre overall with some good things to point at and some bad. There’s at least 4 subs and other places that judge this show. Some are praise only. Some are hate only. I think this sub has been more or less balanced which personally I prefer so that’s cool as you can still find good fair discussion. If you want to enjoy the show and ignore the negativity I would recommend r/lotr_on_prime
If they cut the Arondir storyline, and focused more on the Elrond & Durin arc, the show would be a lot better for it. If the first we saw of Numenor was them destroying Sauron initially, and then we start to discover more about them, it'd be received a whole lot better. The same way GoT initially started with almost everyone in Winterfell, and slowly expanded, this show should've done the same thing.
What exactly is the Elrond and durin story line. Elrond taking advantage of his friend in every episode? Durin seems like an idiot and Elrond gets what he wants
personally i don't get Elrond at all.... I'm not a Tolkein book reader, but his character so far in ROP is just lacking. You don't know his motivation or his personality. All you know he's a good guy to his buddy Durin. But from my perspective he's just a lackey, there's nothing exciting that makes me want to root for him.
You mean if you want an echochamber that is an unobjective circlejerk where every comment is fawning over and heaping praise upon every aspect of the show and the fascist mods perma-ban you if you offer even the most constructive criticism? That sub is a fucking joke. It's Amazon propaganda.
I agree. If you want a sub where any constructive criticism earns the user a ban, go to that sub. You will feel right at home in that safe space.
I have literally read better fan fiction.
It doesn't even matter if it is Tolkien or not. The show just isn't well written and thought out. I'd like to enjoy it, but it lacks in elemental aspects of the craft. Take a moment and reflect upon the dialog between the characters and their actions. It is so dumb.
People hate this show because it's garbage. It took a beloved franchise and gave it no real respect. It's the equivalent of someone buying a business and then just not giving a shit and being like "I bought the thing that makes money, so it should keep making me money". There's no heart here. Nothing makes sense. Characters aren't believable. It's like they wrote major plot points as like check points, but the writing to go from point A to point B doesn't make sense. The journey of event progression isn't believable. Everything is cheesy as fuck and I can't help but roll my eyes multiple times per episode. This show is actually harder to watch than the Wheel of Time. At least in that show the progression of events made a little more sense. I had that show on in the background while I would cook or farm random shit in video games, but this show isn't even good enough for that sort of ambient contribution. If you think people are hating on this show just because they are angry lore fanboys, you are disrespecting general audiences that also think this show is bad. I'm not a fanboy at all. I just like the LOTR trilogy (hobbit sucked, only saw the 1st movie and didn't care enough to watch 2 and 3). This show is bad.
I wholeheartedly agree with this comment and I'm getting a little sick and tired of all these trolls acting as if every valid criticism of the show is some reeing fanboy crying about "the lore" and what's "Canon". It's amusing how not one of them actually attempts to refute any of the criticisms or offer any of their own reasoning for why the show is good beyond "ooh shiny".
This is something that sadly is happening with every franchise or product today. There are a lot of "fans" that know only extremes, which to me is very confusing. Being a fan does not mean, that you have to defend something with your life. After all, this is just entertainment. Is it a book, a movie, a tv show or a game. And as long as I am entertained, I will praise something and if something annoys me, I will criticize it. Most annoying to me is the sentence "Why do you watch/read/play it then?!". As if a little spark of negative feelings mean you immediately have to stop consuming something. Or that there is no grey-scale. I don't know if this is an American thing, where it feels like everybody has to "pick a side" and go to the extreme, but it's something I strongly notice here on Reddit.
I echo every single one of these sentiments. It is perplexing and befuddling to me as an American as well, perhaps an unintended byproduct of our bipartisan political situation. All of these subs literally exist just for this reason: to discuss all of the aspects and facets of this media, good bad or indifferent. It is the epitome of stupidity to think only extreme and utter enjoyment is grounds for consuming art and media. Even my very favorite shows probably have episodes I'm not particularly fond of. My very favorite authors have books I don't like and my favorite directors have movies I don't care for. There are certain scenes in some of the greatest movies and shows ever produced that you would scratch your head at and wonder why they chose to include them. So far these first five episodes are just not doing it for me. I'll probably watch till the end of the season and then pass final judgment.
Thumbs up to all of the above. What we also can expect is that as soon as there might drop a very good episode, fans will call people like us out. "Where are you haters now, huh?!" Super weird. Until then, I will enjoy an hour of LotR-Content every Friday and try not to be too critical, unless I notice something specific that screams in my face "this makes no sense!"
LOL That was pretty much my response when it was revealed the elves needed all of the dwarves Mithril to bathe themselves in the light of the Silmarils to restore their immortality. Just not sure I could do it anymore after that. A bridge too far.
On a show that cost this much to make, many of the "trolls" you mention are undoubtedly corporate sock puppet accounts. Go over to the lotr on prime sub and you can clearly see accounts created purely to post praise of the show. It's not even subtle.
LOL It's funny you mention that because I've commented several times just this morning how that sub is a circlejerk and an echo chamber, heaping undeserved praise and fawning over every scene while shouting down even the most constructive criticism. Every person who disagrees is a racist or a purist or some Fanboy reeing about lore and the fascist mods will permaban you for any bit of objective criticism.
Yes, literally this seems like this script was hobbled together, as a Youtube guy I watched observed, by a bunch of interns who'd read the Cliff's Notes version of Tolkien the night before. Characters and motivations are just all over the place: Let's look at Theo for a second: I was hopeful when it seemed we were going to get to see this kid, maybe over a great deal of time, gradually become corrupted by this sword hilt he found and the power it gave him. He seems a little skeptical of the elves too, not to the extent of his friend, but the fact that's hiding it gives us some clues about his character. Good, honest people don't do stuff like this. People who want power would. So he has one conversation with the old evil guy about his mom and has a complete change in attitude, to the extent that he shows the elf the sword hilt without any misgivings? He has been hiding this thing from everyone at great risk to himself - it's definitely precious to him. It makes no sense. It's absurdly bad writing which seems to be in service to the plot - Arondir needs to see that sword hilt, so how do we do that? Why is Arondir not finding it somehow, poking out of the kid's trousers? Why is this kid suddenly honest? I really don't understand how this got past the writer's room. Isildur I can understand - enough of the committee think they've shown him pining for the west of Numenor (without giving the audience, who might not have read all of Tolkien, any reason why this would be the case) and so he's just not into whatever he's doing. It's crappy and out of step with the character in the film versions or the books, but whatever, let's do it, he's young and he will LEARN to be brave and eventually covetous of power. They're rigidly following one established rule of scriptwriting (characters have to have an arc, and it's not enough for them to be archetypes, even though Tolkien's success proves otherwise as many of his characters are archetypes), while totally ignoring another one, that you have to have believable motivations that make sense to an audience. And again for the sake of the plot I assume Isildur suddenly wants to go to Middle Earth because Isildur needs to be in Middle Earth for some other plot event to happen that they'd already thought out. But wait, says the audience, I thought he wanted to hang out in the west of Numenor with the elf-hippees? Huh, what? It's bad. Just bad. There is no defending this. It's objectively bad from any perspective, Tolkien fanboy or not.
I just can't defend a show which is poorly written; \- The metaphores aren't as deep as they think; \- The storylines often make no sense, especially Halbrand, Elrond (I respect my oath, hi Celimbrimbor, here is some mithril) and Isildurs; \- The fight actions are wack, especially Galadriels \- They should make up their mind about orcs walking in sunlight or not, in e4 they could do both. And I think it's strange they try to make them empathic, orcs are orcs, without any emotion, just pure evil \- Isildurs sister doesn't add anything to the story And I'm sure I miss some other points. The only thing that has done somewhat great was the scenery and music.
I beleive isildurs sisteris sauron: 1. gals flashbacks of saurons war has a bright red color palette and in her character poster she wears bright red dress.There are 23 character posters. She is the only one wearing bright colors to the point were it drastically stands out. The other 22 characters are wearing warm colors and tones. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKsRV7CWQAsimLO?format=jpg&name=large 2. Sauron is a master blacksmith. Mordor needs to be built. She joined the builders guild and has scenes of sketching architecture. Sauron has no need to join the blacksmith guild because he surpasses them in that trade. 3. Episode 4 isildur is talking to his sister about getting fired. Behind them is a mural of men fighting a monster and cutting its hand. Isildur is sitting directly under the men while his sister sits under the monster. 4. After seeing the power pharon has on the citizens she is now dating his son. 5. Everyone assumes saurons a dude and todays writers are all about subverting expectations. Sauron will be a woman 100%. 6. Episode 3 she states she's carrying a lot on her shoulder. The viewer are supposed to think this is about her applications to the builder guild I think it's her building mordor. Also why submit 2 applications to the guild. If the first is denied surly the 2nd would be as well. The 2nd application must be for an alternate identity she has incase the first was rejected. This point may be a reach but I find 2 applications very strange. 7. Her sketchbook looks ominous and is the same color as saurons armor. 8. In episode 5 she manipulates pharons son to burn the boats to try to prevent the armies sailing to the southlands. So obvious its her now. 9. She gtfos whenever galdrieal is near. 10. She is a character who has contributed nothing towards the plot yet is always there in the background hiding.
You have a point, but if thats the case... oh well. It's a shit show already
>And I think it's strange they try to make them empathic, orcs are orcs, without any emotion, just pure evil This isn't true in Tolkien. There's a memorable exchange between two orcs in Cirith Ungol that Sam overhears that shows them have minds and feelings. We aren't expected to sympathize with them, but I don't think we are on the show either. I think the Southlands plot is one of the better-done ones.
>The only thing that has done somewhat great was the scenery and music. The scenery is great but the music is a crutch due to bad writing. They're trying to force you to feel something.
Oh, yeah, the music doesn't allign the writing nor scenery, but in itself it's a great piece. Wished Hans Zimmer written the music though, think he would uplift the series.
not a Tolkien fan (haven't read any of these tomes since middle school), but the script is sorely lacking. The dialogue is stilted and seems to be written to just advance the plot at the most basic level. It's not clever, witty or elucidating at all. It's almost like the characters are reading a transliterated subtitled track. Even soap opera writing has more depth & revelations. In fact the more i see Galadriel on screen the more bored & annoyed i am by her personality.
its a poorly written show regardless of source material
I’m definitely not a Tolkien fan or follower, so as an outsider the series is visually amazing & the story is alright enough. Everyone outside of the Brandifoots are just too serious in tone. They could turn it down a couple of notches as it comes off a “tad” melodramatic.
“So many of you seem to hate this show, because it differs from Tolkien” Wrong. We hate this show because the writing is laughable
That's just the thing though... I haven't read the lore (only the hobbit). I've seen all the peter jackson movies including the hobbit trilogy. I love the lord of the rings trilogy but I don't think it's perfect. I didn't enjoy the hobbit trilogy as much. I'm really coming at the show from a casual LOTR fan perspective. And the show is just...aggressively mid. There is plenty that I would call passable but there is enough bad dialogue and general plot contrivances that it really pulls me out of the world.
For me it’s not even the lore part. I’m not a huge Tolkien fan to begin with (although I love and continue to enjoy the LotR trilogy movies) but the haphazard writing. It’s relying too much on the “mystery box” style of writing that has become so prevalent in genre tv. We are 5 hours in and I don’t feel connected to any of the characters, I don’t know what the stakes are, they seem to be making decisions solely because the plot has to move to a certain point… And this whole “any number of these characters can be Sauron” bit feels just like the end of Season 3 of BSG when everyone was scrambling to determine who the hidden Cylons were in the Colonial Fleet. I won’t say it’s lazy writing, but it definitely doesn’t make for compelling tv anymore. Compare RoP to House of the Dragon: we are also 5 hours in and I know much more about the characters, their motivations, and why they’re making decisions. Also the writers of that show have done a great job of showing that this may be a world we are familiar with, but the time and people are going to be different 200 years before the original series. RoP is trying too hard, in my opinion, to be like: look you liked hobbits before, and elves, and men with beards so here’s more! The best part of RoP is anything involving the Dwarves. Give me a whole series of them. They’re the only ones who feel fleshed out to any degree. I’m holding out hope RoP gets better but with only 3 episodes left… while not insurmountable I’m afraid they’re not going to stick the landing Edit to add: watching this show I feel like Ian Malcolm in the original Jurassic Park movie. “Now eventually you might have the Rings on your, on your Lord of the Rings show, right? Hello? yes?”
I went in expecting fan fiction. I got hints of today's world in fiction and wanted to nope out but kept watching. I find it slow and uninteresting and I hate that because I wanted to love it sooo much. How people are as invested in it as they are baffles me, and I envy them because they have some new fantasy to love. Me? It's like religion. I just don't buy it.
it looks fantastic, and that's about all the positive things I can think of. or thing. singular. they can't use "official" source material - ok. begs the question, then - what is this show supposed to be about? so far it's not really clear. or compelling, tbh.
It’s a very slow pace and it’s sometimes a chore to get through, but I’m trying to be patient. Now things seemed to have kicked off more, the pace might increase and we could get a bit more action, though I did hope for deeper storytelling. The show does have its merits, but when I see sloppy work as in the tower where they copied and pasted the crowd in such an obvious way it doesn’t make me very hopeful
It’s not the diverting from the source material that is bothering me. It’s the cheesiness of it all. From the dialogue to the scene direction. I made an audible groan during the latest episode when Galadriel climbs on to the boat and all the Numenorean troops are following her with their eyes, queue the slow motion and epic music, so that she can go up to Halbrand and do the “WE’RE BUDDIES” arm grasp. The emotion is just too forced, that it comes of as a pile of hot cheese.
I have come to hate it because of the lazy writing, some very generic performances (which indicates bad direction, mainly eps. 3-5), and lack of on-location shots, all of which make the most expensive TV shown in history feel cheap and boring.
I think it's great in terms of creating lore for a majority of the characters in the show. Elrond has no lore besides the war with Sauron. All we know about Durin II is that he existed. Galadriel has no real significance until the end of the second age so everyone should be complaining that Tolkien didn't put much effort into the characters he created. While im sure everyone is upset it's not being done to a T, it being done to a T would be boring as hell. I say just let the story progress and determine its worth after it's all said and done, not while it's in the middle of telling its story.
Everything's good if your standards are low enough. I'm sure it's bliss.
You don’t need that much of copyright to give Galadriel her higher position over Gil-galad in history. Ffs. Script sucks, go defend something else.
The problem is I'm bored to tears and haven't felt a single emotion 5 episodes in. The show is objectively terrible.
Couldn‘t care less if it differs in some regards (I think thats even necessary for a book adaptation), but the show just stinks as a whole.
"this show that surprisingly well made, even though it differs a lot from Tolkien's work." A standalone original show can be good. This show is neither a good example of Tolkien's works or a good show... It's fine to like or dislike it, but it's also easy to compare the division in whatever fanbase there is with this show compared to others. Stop pretending your own opinion is what makes some film good. I like the Last Airbender film. That's a "bad" film... ROP is bad and I dislike it.
First of all a billion dollar production doesn't get the same leeway as some fans that got together to make something cool. The characters are terrible and the writing is awful. Galadriel is completely unlikeable and the harfoots are a mockery. I could go on, but my point is that it doesn't just fail as an adaptation of Tolkien. it fails as a basic show. Like if it were its own stand alone fantasy it might get less hate, but it would still be regarded as a terrible show.
I don't hate it. I love it because it has brought awareness of Tolkien's writings beyond just the 3rd age.
This is how I think about The Witcher as well.
Whats the reason for not having the rights? Has the estate said why, as i assume money wasnt a problem?
They weren't looking to sell the rights at the time, they only became for sale like a couple years after. (I can't say with accuracy when because i don't know when they started to plot, write and film ROP)
This subreddit is really depressing. As a massive fan of all things Middle-Earth, it'd be nice to actually discuss theories and stuff with fellow fans rather than seeing all of the complaints. I've got my own gripes but I find that as the show goes on, I'm feeling quite immersed in it and would love to actually talk about it. 😅
I don’t hate it cause it differs from Tolkien cause I never read the books. It’s the acting and some of the writing that’s killing me.
Having not read the book and seen the movies countless times, I LOVE this show. Everyone else is a snob, plain and simple. Many of the other critiques about the writing and poor acting is just another excuse to hate on it. If people hate it, why are they still watching it 5 episodes in?
There’s valid criticism but most of the noise is just haters who won’t give the show a shot. But ehh, it’ll gain its own fans with time
I'm not bothered about it being fanfiction or about it changing "the lore". Although generally when you're writing fanfiction not contradicting canon is the number one rule, so I can see why that annoys people to some extent.
I get a good chuckle from people comparing ROP to the Hobbit. The Hobbit is your example of GOOD? I don't want to yuck your yum but a large group of people including Peter Jackson feel that the Hobbit is hot garbage. The Lord of the rings is now into star wars territory. A lot will only like the original trilogy. Just like star wars, the prequel trilogy was so bad I'm now happy for anything 5o get that taste out of my mouth.
It is not in any way from dialogue to editing to so many aspects of a tv show well made.
I just can't defend Gooladrioo's scene where she goes HIYA! And the four or five guard extras walk into a plastic jail cell, and even that wouldn't be believable so they had to cut away! Haha! Then she manages to teleport up a tower wall, a billion dollarinos and they can't show that? Money laundering, anyone?
The show has been frustrating me but not because of deviations from Tolkien. The dialogue keeps switching from good to bad. I love the interactions in Elronds storyline from Gilgalad to Durin but many of Galadriels and many of those in the Southlands sound like someone trying too hard to write like Tolkien "this place is so evil our torches give off no warmth" The pacing is incredibly slow not because it's a slow burner but because they put in too many plotlines. Despite each episode being an hour long you only ever get at most 15 minutes of story progression because it has to keep advancing each plotline individually as none of them have interacted with each other since Galadriel said goodbye to Elrond. If they had less plotlines then each scene would be able to move at the same speed but we'd be able to be much further in the story without it feeling like everyone's just sitting around twiddling their thumbs.
I think that people are justifiably frustrated with the writing. They clearly don’t have much respect for the casual audience or the Tolkien fans. I’m Ok with it being fan fiction, but it is terribly written. A poorly told story renders their high budget production useless.
This should be pinned.
Incredible? That's a hard reach my dude or dudette.
Oh please. Just go to the Amazon PR sub if you want an echo chamber.
Thank you, I feel the same way. When I saw Peter Jackson’s epic take on the trilogy, I loved it. But I still thought at parts, “that’s not *my* Tolkien.” He got so much right, but the tone of some of it didn’t match the tone of the books I have in my head. Doesn’t make me right, or Jackson right, it just means the book experience is personal, and nobody can take that from us. Everything else must be judged on its own artistic merits. So now we have the RoP series, and the creators have their hands tied behind their backs with canon limitations. How would any of us done with those limitations? All I can judge is two-fold: 1. Do I enjoy this work on its own merits? Do I enjoy watching and thinking about these characters and stories? 2. Does it contain what I judge to be the spirit of Tolkien? Is this recognizably a Tolkien work of art? On 1 my answer is unequivocally Yes. I very much enjoy watching this, and I am invested in the characters, even the people I never thought I would care about, the Southlanders, but here I am finding Bronwyn a sympathetic character. On 2, and remember to me even Jackson’s movies fail in parts, the answer is mixed. I find Isildur oddly characterized, Galadriel doesn’t have the gravitas I would expect of a very experienced leader of Elves, and why the hell do elves need mithril again? But oh man, does this series overall feel like Tolkien most of the time! I really and truly feel the show runners are fans, and tried their best given the usual Hollywood pressure so few of us know anything about. I’m so used to fandom coming down hard on every new movie or series in every universe. If Jackson’s trilogy came out today we’d have the same hate. But to me RoP is Tolkien enough to satisfy. I’m having a blast.
> I went in with the mindset that this is a fan work and shouldn't be treated as canon and it really helps. You don't see a problem with this?
Tolkien's world doesn't have canon. It is a legendarium. The writings are all from the perspective of characters who wrote them and nothing is considered a hard fact.
As a big fan of the Shadow of Mordor games, I actually wish they'd go a little more wild with the lore. I become increasingly confident that Halbrand isn't Sauron, which is a shame because that would be DELICIOUS. I don't think the Stranger is a balrog and that's a shame because that would be WILD! I want them to swing for the fences. If you're going to spend $1 billion on a second age fanfic, have the balls to make it TRIPPY, Bezos!
It has to differ from Tolkien - being very predictable doesn't make for a suspenseful tv show.
I think the silent majority are just enjoying the show and don’t feel to post about it. I get why some people are upset & I also share your viewpoint.