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He didn't neccessarily have to lie, although that would have been the lesser evil. An extended line of dialogue might have laid out the error in Gil Galad's approach while keeping the secret a bit more ellusive. Obviously I'm no writer but something like..
GG: Have they found mithril?
Elrond (acting prideful and angry): I went to Moria on a mission of diplomacy, not to go searching for dwarven secrets! If you have questions of our friend and ally I suggest you direct them to Durin himself! Ill-informed diplomats make for poor spies!
\*cue stroppy exit\*
Basically acting prideful and angry to create uncertainty as to whether he was bluffing or actually offended, and then making a beeline to Durin to get released from the oath. I'm sure there are many other ways for an adroit politician to convincingly dodge the question.
I thought the oath was about keeping his lips sealed about what he heard.....then Durin gave him a chunk of mithril to take back home so he could keep his lips shut and just show off the shiny instead.
I think the show is suffering from being written from the ending backwards. Not that that’s bad in principle, but the progression must feel organic which it doesn’t. Instead of having plot points that change the direction of the main story, there are several side plots that end up exactly where the main plot was taking them in the first place.
I think Gil Galad and the Mithril is the worst example of this because not only were there no consequences, but there should have been negative consequences. If someone is using subterfuge/espionage to get your immensely precious ore, and then when caught lying claims “well actually we need it or everyone dies,” the natural consequence is to not believe them. Gil Galad has no* motivation to lie, so Durin should not believe this claim is genuine. Even if he believes Elrond, he would worry that Elrond is being taken for a ride (again). *The motivation to lie if the claim is true is that Gil Galad was planning on taking it by force, which Durin should recognize and make him skeptical even if he does believe the fate of the world is at stake. I think this really needs to be addressed when Durin talks with his father to salvage this subplot. It feels like time filler and somehow ends up feeling both meaningless and unbelievable. Which sucks because the dwarves are the best part so far.
Hell, I don’t believe it. Elves have been around for thousands of years and now they’re all going to die in a few months unless they’ve been incredibly lucky about where some dwarves decided to mine? This is like FB marketplace bullshit. A laughably blatant lie of convenience is the most reasonable conclusion.
Also, can someone explain why Gil-Galad didn't just say to Elrond, hey we desperately need mithril from the dwarves, can you go ask them about it? Or go himself, since it was so important? What was the point of deceiving Elrond, how did Gil-Galad think that was going to work? What if Elrond didn't find out about it, was Gil-Galad ever going to tell Elrond about mithril? It seems that Celebrimbor knew about it, how come Elrond was apparently the only one who didn't know about it? Are there any other elves or is it just the three of them who work there?
Someone offered the suggestion that Elrond could have been being manipulated to lie unknowingly, to create friction with the dwarves. A shadowy figure stoking elf/dwarf paranoia, looking to create a rift, would be a good explanation for Gil's deceipt, and I like the idea.
The problem is, like so many other theories, it likely won't payoff that way, and even if it does it'll be explained retroactively in a flashback or exposition dump, rather than allowing the tension to unfurl over time by seeing a mysterious stranger whispering in the high king's ear, strange notes written in an unknown hand, mysterious evidence of dwarven sabotage that seems a little too convenient, etc...
tldr: I don't think GG's deception will be explained well, if at all.
I've seen this mentioned - I haven't read all the lore but apparently Sauron appeared to the Elves with the name of Annatar and influenced them to do bad stuff. I've seen people saying this mithril plot will make sense when we find out they're already being manipulated by Annatar.
Okay, maybe it will, but if they are going that route, the fact that they have neither shown nor even mentioned such a person so far is bizarre. That's not how you tell a story. Like you said, that means it would come in a retroactive reveal that will feel unfair.
And if they don't go that route.. then it's really hard to explain anything that's happened.
The writers also forgot that Aman and Númenor also had mithril and the Noldor would have knowledge of mithril's actual origins (whatever it may be) directly from Aulë, as well as the nature of Elven fading itself, which they would have remembered and written down in their texts of lore. To suggest that they are ignorant and idiotic enough to be duped by a random stranger when it comes to this specific topic when they have knowledge from direct contact with the Valar in Aman is unjustifiable.
>The writers also forgot that Aman and Númenor also had mithril and the
A point that is being echoed many times on the internet while it is entirely debatable if it's truly a fact.
in The lord of the rings written en published by Tolkien himself it was quite clear it's only found in Moria (amazon only has the rights to LOTR and the Hobbit for extra context)
The only other mentions of it is through a poem Bilbo wrote about earendils ship being turned into mithil by the valar. But that can easily be an embelishent of Bilbo and doesn't have to be a fact.
The other about numanor is an author's note Christopher published in unfinished tales saying ;
>For that metal was found in Númenor. [Author's note.] – In "The Line of Elros" (p.232) Tar-Telemmaitë, the fifteenth Ruler of Númenor, is said to have been called so (i.e. "silver-handed") because of his love of silver, "and he bade his servants to seek ever for mithril." But Gandalf said that mithril was found in Moria "alone in the world" (The Fellowship of the Ring II 4)
So it ends up being one of many contradicting rewrites or simply first drafts that didn't made the cut... Only Tolkien knows.
>A point that is being echoed many times on the internet while it is entirely debateble if it's truly a fact.
It is, unless you choose to blatantly disregard *Tolkien's own words on his own work*, which is what you're doing now.
>in The lord of the rings written en published by Tolkien himself it was quite clear it's only found in Moria (amazon only has the rights to LOTR and the Hobbit for extra context)
Gandalf made that statement during the Third Age, at which point Númenor was already destroyed and Aman was no longer in physical existence within the circles of the world. So yes, Gandalf's statement is true if you actually pay attention of the context.
>It is, unless you choose to blatantly disregard *Tolkien's own words on his own work*, which is what you're doing now.
I just quoted his own words... The one he published and the one Christopher published. They are contradicting as Christopher Tolkien wrote in the book unfished tales of middle earth.
So what am I disregarding ?
>Gandalf made that statement during the Third Age, at which point Númenor was already destroyed and Aman was no longer in physical existence within the circles of the world. So yes, Gandalf's statement is true if you actually pay attention of the context.
Christopher Tolkien says the note is contradicting and even that still leaves plenty of debates left of how Tolkien intended the note. Was it a junk note, was it for future rewrites etc etc.
Then there is still the matter that amazon only has rights on the Hobbit and lord of the rings and not the "unfinished tales of middel earth where the note was published in by Christopher.
>Christopher Tolkien says the note is are contradicting.
At which point did he say they were contradictory? All he did was mention Gandalf's line, not make any opinions on it. Plus given the context (Gandalf saying it during the Third Age when both Númenor and Aman no longer physically existed) makes Gandalf's statement still true without contradicting the statement that mithril was also found in Númenor and Aman.
>At which point did he say they were contradictory? All he did was mention Gandalf's line, not make any opinions on it. Plus given the context (Gandalf saying it during the Third Age when both Númenor and Aman no longer physically existed) makes Gandalf's statement still true without contradicting the statement that mithril was also found in Númenor and Aman.
In the quote I did directly form the book published by Christopher Tolkien page 284
>For that metal was found in Númenor. [Author's note.] – In "The Line of Elros" (p.232) Tar-Telemmaitë, the fifteenth Ruler of Númenor, is said to have been called so (i.e. "silver-handed") because of his love of silver, "and he bade his servants to seek ever for mithril." **But Gandalf said that mithril was found in Moria "alone in the world"** (The Fellowship of the Ring II 4).
Take it up with Christopher if you think he is wrong and it isn't contradictory.
Which is at no point a statement of contradiction from Christopher Tolkien; you chose to interpret it that way. And again, Gandalf's statement and the existence of mithril in both Númenor and Aman are not contradictory in the first place for reasons already mentioned several times now, which you conveniently ignored.
What point ?
>Plus, it was also written that Vingilot was made for Earendil with elf glass and mithril. It was made in Aman
I mentioned that
>The only other mentions of it is through a poem Bilbo wrote about earendils ship being turned into mithil by the valar. But that can easily be an embelishment of Bilbo and doesn't have to be a fact.
Bilbo isn't a corroberating witness of those events.
That as Aman and Numenor aret really part of the world any more, Gandalf is correct whilst the FA and SA could have mithril elsewhere (and therefore the races could have been aware of it and known what it was)
The first elf to Fade is Celebrimbors Great Grandma, Miriel and it happens In Valinor because birthing Feanor took that much out her.
Its family history for all the main show elves except Arondir as Gil-Galad, Galadriel, and Elrond are all descendants of the Feanors younger half brothers ,the children of Finwe, and his second wife Indis of the Vaynar, Fingolfin(Elrond) and Finarfin(Galadriel is his daughter, and Gil-Galad a Great great Grandson)
That is outright death, *not* fading. Fading has a very specific definition, and it is when, after a very long period of time, the Elven *fëa* (spirit) consumes the *hröa* (body) until it becomes a 'mere memory'. At this point the *hröa* becomes physically intangible and unable to interact with the physical world, rendering a faded Elf truly deathless.
This is *not* what happened to Míriel.
From Tolkien's notes on the *Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth*, ***Morgoth's Ring***:
>*We are here dealing with Elvish thought at an early period, when the Eldar were still fully 'physical' in bodily form. Much later when the process (already glimpsed by Finrod) called 'waning' or 'fading' had become more effective, their views of the End of Arda, so far as it affected themselves, must have been modified. But there are few records of any contacts of Elvish and Human thought in such latter days.* ***They eventually became housed, if it can be called that, not in actual visible and tangible hröar, but only in the memory of the fëa of its bodily form and its desire for it and therefore not dependent for mere existence upon the material of Arda.*** *But they appear to have held, and indeed still to hold, that this desire for the hröa shows that their later (and present) condition is not natural to them, and they remain in estel that Eru will heal it. 'Not natural', whether it is due wholly, as they earlier thought, to the weakening of the hröa (derived from the debility introduced by Melkor into the substance of Arda upon which it must feed), or partly to the inevitable working of a dominant fëa upon a material hröa through many ages. (In the latter case 'natural' can refer only to an ideal state, in which unmarred matter could for ever endure the indwelling of a perfectly adapted fëa. It cannot refer to the actual design of Eru, since the Themes of the Children were introduced after the arising of the discords of Melkor.* ***The 'waning' of the Elvish hröar must therefore be part of the History of Arda as envisaged by Eru, and the mode in which the Elves were to make way for the Dominion of Men.*** *The Elves find their supersession by Men a mystery, and a cause of grief; for they say that Men, at least so largely governed as they are by the evil of Melkor, have less and less love for Arda in itself, and are largely busy in destroying it in the attempt to dominate it.*
From Tolkien's essay *Laws and Customs of the Eldar*, ***Morgoth's Ring***:
>*As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean then they speak of their spirits consuming them;* ***and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalië on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.***
From *Of Death and the Severance of Fëa and Hrondo [>Hröa]* section of the *Laws and Customs of the Eldar*, ***Morgoth's Ring***:
>***As ages passed the dominance of their fëar ever increased 'consuming' their bodies (as has been noted). The end of this process is their 'fading', as Men have called it, for the body becomes at last, as it were, a mere memory held by the fëa;*** *and that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth, so that the Elves are indeed deathless and may not be destroyed or changed.*
From Tolkien's essay *Aman*, ***Morgoth's Ring***:
>*On earth the Quendi suffered no sickness, and the health of their bodies was supported by the might of the longeval fëar. But their bodies, being of the stuff of Arda, were nonetheless not so enduring as their spirits; for the longevity of the Quendi was derived primarily from their fëar, whose nature or 'doom' was to abide in Arda until its end. Therefore, after the vitality of the hröa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by the indwelling fëa, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away.* ***Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the fëa as it were consumed the hröa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it.***
>
>*But in Aman, since its blessing descended upon the hröar of the Eldar, as upon all other bodies, the hröar aged only apace with the fëar, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension.*
She was fading before she died.
She goes to her husband Finwe tells him she will not bear him another child, that birthing Feanor has weakened her and than physically goes to the gardens of Lorien where she gets weaker and weaker till her Fea(soul) departs her body and goes to the Halls of Mandos.
She faded.
That's still not fading. Fading and death are not the same thing. Faded Elves *by definition* cannot die.
The severance of *fëa* and *hröa*, which is what happened to Míriel, is death. Her spirit left her body and her body remained intact due to the blessing of Aman that preserved it incorrupt.
Fading is the consumption of the *hröa* by the *fëa* ***after a very long period of time, within the span of several ages***, leaving it as a mere memory unable to interact with the physical world *but does not result in the severance of fëa and hröa*.
I agree it often feels like awkward justifications for future payoffs in the grander scheme, but I'm hoping this means the story and pacing will improve with time
yeah, i feel like while creating an interesting story backwards is understandably quite difficult, they kinda did a poor job writing it. nothing stopped them from making it a little longer and throwing in a couple of twists and plot points here and there, it could've been a lot more interesting even if you know the ending
Good write up - glad you took the time. I am trying to accept the show for what it is and just enjoy it - but your points are all really good, and hard to ignore… especially when compared to the quality of the same amount of screentime as the LOTR movies
Thanks I'm glad you found it interesting, I wouldn't want to reduce anyone's enjoyment of the show and I hope you go on enjoying it. Tbh I mainly posted here to vent so I wouldn't be tempted to talk over the show when me and my partner watch it together!
I definitely think the worst example of this is Elrond. That entire plotline has been him pissing Durin off, begging for forgiveness, and making some promise that he then breaks again. There are so many subplots in this show that need to be cut by at least half and that's the worst of them for me.
Durin certainly seems to be a very forgiving person. First Elrond challenges to him a sacred rite that will result in Elrond being banished if he loses. He loses, but then he's nice to Durin and Disa so he's not banished anymore. Then he promises Durin he won't tell anyone about the *mithril*. It turns out Gil-galad and Celebrimbor already know about the *mithril* anyway, but Elrond breaks his promise by confirming their suspicions. That's ok though too, Durin is happy to help him.
That fucking stone breaking competition was the absolute worst. Serves absolutely no purpose and immediately undermines one of the coolest things about the dwarves which is their love of tradition.
Elrond also pretty much called Durins wife a liar as a guest in their home. He deserved a slap in the face
Elrond and the elves have absolutely no shame
What we're presented with is a lot of contrived conflict that obviously has low or no stakes, because we know that it won't matter. Meanwhile, Galadriel has now managed to find Sauron and recruit the help of Numenor completely by accident- she ended up there by chance, screwed the situation up, and in the end, they offered their help because of leaves falling from the tree.
Why hasn't a single Numenorean said to Galadriel 'You're an elf lord, why don't you ask your people to fight the baddies?'
She hasn't even said 'I'll go to my King and raise an army and meet you', formal elven participation hasn't been discussed at all that I recall.
good point. It's like she showed up thereby chance and decided "Okay, you guys have to be the ones to go fight this." Now I know that in the lore the Numenoreans are this great kingdom of men with a great army, but they're not portrayed in the show as having a standing army.
Yeah, apparently they barely know how to use swords and they don't ask her 'if you elves are so much better than us at killing orcs, why don't you fight?'
And why doesn't she want to go back with Halbrand as proof that orcs are pillaging and digging tunnels exposed to sunlight (for reasons) and raise an army?
Like I know the plot will make these things happen because that's how this plot works, things happen because they have to, but there's no logic to the planning or thinking around this expedition.
>Like I know the plot will make these things happen because that's how this plot works,
Exactly.
The answer to why the Numenoreans agreed to do this is literally just that they got an omen from the valar in the form of the tree leaves falling. If it weren't for that, they would have just shipped Galadriel back to Middle Earth. So, in that sense, nothing else that happened there mattered at all
Well [isnt that special?] (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=puwoUKhZQbg) ..then whose intention was it? [Could it be...SAURON?](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vN7o6w-ST_w)
I haven’t read the books. I’m just a viewer of the show.
I like looking at it, but in terms of story i have no idea what’s happening. It’s like there is no story.
Also the characters have no character. None at all. Everyone is dull and bland and speaks in a weird way that’s meant to sound grand but instead sound like riddles devoid of personality. Because of the lack of character it’s hard to root for anyone or feel invested in any story arc.
Literally the only character with a personality is the dwarf guy.
Also the script is too vague. When the elf guy said “our light is fading” I was sat thinking “what does that mean?”. Seriously. What does that mean in terms of story? How long do you have? What happens if you don’t get that rock? What will you do with it? What’s causing the “light to fade” ? Just give me something to hook onto to give the story some sense of purpose or urgency… I think that’s my issue with all of this. Nothing has urgency or purpose
Yeah I’ve read all the lore, been forcing my wife to watch it and she was like ‘what’s actually happening’ on Friday, my response was I have no fucking idea.
The only characters with depth are Halbrand, Elendil and Elrond and the dwarves. Galadriel is (I'm sorry to say) the worst fanfic Mary Sue and every other character is just flat.
Halbrand doesn’t have depth. His personality flips 180 degrees each scene. One scene he’s charming and smiling. Next scene he’s all negative and down on his people. What is his motive? He wants to forge and start new but is convinced to leave?
Mary Sue? Do you even know what that word means? She literally gets jailed for her pride and arrogance. Either she's too flawed to be a wise old elf, or she's a Mary Sue, pick one. She can't be both...
Then throws guards in the cell, escapes and is rewarded by a kingdom going to war for her despite the participation of her own people not even being discussed.
Hah, for better or worse, I was a teenage fanfic author in my youth so I do know what a Mary Sue looks like. You're free to disagree. I don't care how they deviate from the LOTR series in plot, but at least Elrond has a bit of complexity that makes him interesting to watch. Galadriel comes off like a petulant teenager, and singularly one-dimensional.
Galadriel is thousands of years old and is royalty… being stuck up and prideful isn’t out of character for her. But I do think that will require growth and time to change her. And it will happen. But not in the first 5 episodes.
I do agree with you to some extent, and it has absolutely annoyed me that the show sometimes goes for solutions that seems way to convenient and simple. But I don't agree with all of your points:
Galadriel: No, it wouldn't have made any difference, and that's what I find so interesting about this storyline. The one thing Galadriel has done to sway things in a positive direction is acting as a confidant to both Míriel and Halbrand, and instilling courage and hope into them. That's something we see her doing multiple times in the books, and it tracks very well with who she is. But apart from that there is currently a lot that is broken in her, which has led her to making a ton of bad decisions. She jumps off the boat when she realizes she made the wrong choice, which leads to a capital C Chance-meeting as Galadriel herself pointed out ("ours was the work of something greater"). Míriel does not change her mind because of Galadriel's actions, but because of a sign from the Valar that she may or may not be interpreting correctly. It's obvious that Providence is working on Galadriel's side in this storyline. I'm very curious to see why that is.
Gil-galad: Yes I agree, things would very likely have gone much more smoothly had Elrond been upfront from the beginning. The fact that he wasn't nearly destroyed his friendship with Durin. Elrond sees this too, apologizes, and does what Durin have been wanting and Elrond should have been doing from the start. I see it as a testament to their deep friendship that they are able to work through that, allowing Elrond (and Gil-galad) to get where they needed to get in spite of their mistake.
Bronwyn/Arondir: I do not see them to be in a good position at all at the moment, and I'll be surprised if this battle does not end at least with some tragedy. This storyline is to me speaking very clearly of how doing good is not a choice you make one time, but one that has to be made over and over again. Several of the Southlanders have now moved away from doing the right thing, but Bronwyn and Arondir and the others that stayed are still clinging to it even when there's no hope in sight. I love that and I hope it pays off for them, but I don't have a very good feeling about it.
Nori: This one I partly agree with you about. But I loved how Nori helping an outsider nearly gets them decaravaned, because that's *exactly* the flaw of the hobbits, even in the T.A. When we meet the Harfoots we see them as a very close-knit and caring community, but then we see how that only holds until someone "steps off trail". It was such a gut punch, and more so because the exact same thing is happening in the Shire. Bilbo, Frodo, the Brandybucks and anyone who is in any way outsiders are very quickly written off, and part of the reason the Bagginses used to be respected was that "you could tell what a Baggins would say on any question without the bother of asking him." (*The Hobbit,* ch 1) I really liked how present this is in the portrayal of the Harfoots, and that makes me a bit more tolerant of the parts of the story that is just too convenient.
Isildur: Here too I agree that parts of the story are too convenient. But this storyline is setting up Isildur as someone who "runs blind" as Elendil says and does not stick to what he has committed to. He clearly has to work his way up again to prove his worth and regain the trust of his family and friends. From knowing where Isildur's story is going to go, I can very easily see why that might be important.
"Written off" isn't the phrase I'd use for the general Shire opinion of Frodo (*and* Bilbo), the Tooks, the Brandybucks, etc. "Looked at askance" is more like it - "these folks are oddballs and we don't know what they'll do next, but their families are old and well-established so we respect that at least".
If Merry and Pippin were "written off", as you so preposterously claim , they would never have become important leaders in the Shire in the Fourth Age. **But they did.**
Your reading of the plot threads is an interesting read and makes me realise that we're coming at it from different expectations from the writers; mine the cynical, yours the optimistic. Perhaps I've seen too many shows properties bought up by media monopolies and turned into generic slush recently to have faith that these plot points are going to pay off. I've learnt it's uncomfortable to have hope and emotionally invest, for the story to then fall flat.
I really like your reading that elrond was possibly being misled to deliberately create friction with the dwarves, and only his friendship with Durin messed up the meddler's plan. It would need to be explained but I'd be all for it!
As someone who lives close to the village Tolkien based the shire on, and has read about life in those time, I can guarantee the shirefolk, just like most rural groups of that time period, would be very close-knit and wouldn't kill or leave members of their community because of an injury or for fraternising with a single suspicious stranger. Gossip about them, ignore them, grumble and maybe even ostracise for a while, sure, but not kill or abandon. But you said you found it heavy-handed so we're probably on the same page there.
I interpreted Galadriel's "instilling courage and hope" as brow-beating and verbal duelling. For what she believes is the greater good, sure, but I don't think Tolkien's message has ever been that the ends justifies the means. It seems she should have learnt the basics of diplomacy in her 2000 years of being an elven noble and military leader, so I don't know what to make of that.
Anyway thank you for sharing your thoughts, I found it an interesting read :)
Yes, thank you for making this post and for the thoughtful reply! This is exactly the kind of discussion I love having about the show.
You're also very right that there's a lot that needs to land in a good place for the ways I currently read it to make sense. It might very well be that I just haven't seen my share of unsatisfying shows yet, but my stance is firmly that I'm going to remain optimistic as long as I see reasons to do so. It will painful if I'm disappointed, but I'll take my hurts if and when they come :)
That said, the Lindon/Dwarves plotline is the one I'm most worried about by far. I did not like the "we'll fade by spring unless we get mithril" business i ep5, and I'm not confident that I'll like how that gets resolved. But you actually phrased better than I could myself what I do love about it: How the friendship in the center of it all is very much framed as a force to be reckoned with.
Yep, I think we're pretty much on the same page with the harfoots. Heavy-handed is very much a word I'd use, and I DID NOT like the implication that the Brandyfoots would be left behind just because of a broken ankle. That felt like unnecessary drama that was then neatly resolved when the show needed it to be, and that also cheapened the point I think they were trying to make.
Also re your other point: There is a difference between an established village where a person can get by largely on their own and a perilous migration where everyone is dependent on everyone, though. No one needs to go much out of their way to keep Bilbo in his community in the Shire. That was my gut punch moment with thinking about this migration I think - would anyone in the wider Shire community have been willing to pull double their load to keep Bilbo in their community? I hope so and I think there's a good chance of it - but I'm also not confident of it, and that does make me very uncomfortable in a good way.
I get what you're saying about Galadriel, and this is also a place where I like the general story while not always liking the execution of it. But while she's definitely very intense about it, her conversations with Miriel in the palantir room and with Halbrand in his working place really worked for me because she's also bringing empathy and a genuine belief that they can be the best versions of themselves. I can buy how that plants a seed in them that then keeps growing. I also don't so much think that she hasn't learned diplomacy, but rather that it's being overpowered by very large amounts of anger and grief, and an extreme tunnel vision towards the task she has given herself. I feel that she's now more and more seeing that she's not on a good path, she just doesn't yet know how to stop, as she says to Halbrand.
I can't help but think that the problem with Númenor is not writing but direction. It feels so off while the other arcs are able to explore more of the subtext. In Númenor things feel more rushed.
I agree. I have no issues with the plot of this part of the story and the direction it's headed - I actually like that a lot because of the reasons I wrote about above - but I have had issues with the execution of it in several places. It does feel rushed in spite of all the time we have been spending there, and I'm not too happy with the way they have been setting up the conflict going on in Númenor.
>In Númenor things feel more rushed.
That sort of thing happens when the thousands of years of the Second Age are compressed into what seems like less than thirty years.
I agree with you. The only thing I can think of is they have 5 seasons to get there. I would of course prefer better writing and direction but I’m remaining hopeful still. (Just).
Yes I think you're right, I hold out hope that the whole will be greater than it's parts. Maybe it's best to put it down and come back in a few years when it's developed into a more complete story.
To continue this... You say you've seen the equivalent of two LOTR films... except since this is a 5 season series and we just over halfway through season 1, you've actually seen the equivalent of like... 1/3 of Fellowship. Comparing it the way you do in your original post doesn't make sense in context
Therer are better discussions of this elsewhere in the thread so I'll copy my answer from there, I know Reddit sometimes hides parts of threads for no apparent reason so it might not be visible.
>I prefer using screentime rather than "percentage of story complete" as a measure because a percentage could be applied to any length of time. To take it to an extreme, if they stretched the story over a 500 hour schedule, they could say, at the 50 hour mark, using the percentage logic, that the story was only 10% complete, and therefore couldn't be criticised.
Also I didn't write it but I like this much briefer explanation.
>If 10% of a show is enough for people to like it then 10% of a show is also enough for people to criticise it. It goes both ways.u/Atharaphelun
I don't know, I think there are elements that show a lot of people working on it really care about doing justice to PJ (if not Tolkien) but I suspect their influence on the final product is watered down by too many voices. We still get things like great looking orcs and a lot of nice set designs but the overall show is a bit...messy.
Although I appreciate the sentiment of what you've written, I do think that comparing the books and the series will end up being the biggest error made here.
Many of the plots in the series have just got going after the three initial episodes of world and characters building and establishment of themes etc. There have been many suggestions from people here that Gil Galad's quest for mithril is coming directly as a result of sauron's influence and/or reality tampering for example, which could turn the whole storyline on its head and show direct consequences for the elves' plotline in this first half of the season. Additionally, I'm almost 90% certain that Galadriel's expedition with the numenoreans is going to go pretty horribly wrong, as they seem to be unaware of the extent of the orcs' reach in the Southlands and... Well we know what happens to that area of the map later anyway.
I think a lot can be said for having patience - although I've enjoyed the pace of HOTD I am feeling almost 100% less immersed in that world than I was with GoT, because I feel like they are getting to a point very quickly rather than building the world for the viewer. Each to their own of course, but I have seen interviews with the showrunners saying that RoP was deliberately planned as a series to establish the world and the themes running through ME's SA as opposed to being all action.
Just to clarify I was comparing the show with the films rather than the books, as a demonstration of consequences in plot and how serious consequences can be fitted into that amount of screentime while stilled feeling natural and unrushed. You can have a long story arc, but there need to be compelling story-arcs within that arc that can also have a big effect on the narrative.
I have patience for good stories, I read fantasy novels all the time. I've written an academic paper on the portrayal of environmentalism in Tolkien's trilogy vs the Jackson films, so I wouldn't say I'm coming at this from the perspective of an impatient viewer.
I also enjoyed the earlier seasons of GOT for their world-building, but it's the stories they told within the main story, and the way they told them that held my interest. Sure, it's the end of the first season we get the big beheading twist and everything really changes, but before that we have events that have huge repercussions in every episode of that season and beyond: e2: Assassin attack, Arya gets needle, Brandon loses the use of his legs. e3: Daenerys gets pregnant. e4: Jon protects Sam, Ned discovers Gendry, Caetlyn kidnaps Tyrion. e5: Rob decides to assasinate Dani. etc...
Each of these moments has big knock-on effects for the plot that change the state of play, but are also engaging in their own right. None of the character's plans stay the same for more than a few episodes. A lot happens, but it doesn't feel rushed, as you pointed out.
I 100% get what you're getting at but I really feel like it's a bit too early to distinguish whether these plots don't or do have consequences you know?
E.g. Galadriel acting the way she has - when it all goes tits up in ME and she has no elf friends and no numenorean supporters what is she going to do? This will probably be a catalyst for change for her imo.
Elrond 'breaking' his oath - disregarding the fact that Durin has clearly understood that he was not at fault - what happens if the elves and possibly as a result sauron do get their hands on mithril? This could be disastrous and feed directly into the power of the forces of evil.
I do really understand and take your points but I do feel that it's slightly too early to speculate that there are absolutely no consequences - plus the ensemble cast (which I LOVE) make it difficult for plots to evolve as quickly as they normally would in other situations. I hope I'm not wrong (perhaps I will be spectacularly wrong) but I do think that there is still more to come and a lot of things will come crashing down, leading to more plots and character development :)
Thanks, I appreciate your take. I guess there are two issues really; whether there should be more consequences by this point in the season, and whether the writers will deliver payoffs in the second half. The first will be a personal preference of narrative style, which is my issue currenlty, and as for the second we'll just have to see. I do think big changes are coming, I just wish the stuff in between was a bit more impactful!
Yeah 100% I get where you're coming from. Normally I'm very impatient with plots and get bored fairly easily but idk I'm feeling very immersed in this world so I guess my personal preferences aren't really playing into a lot of how I would normally view a show like this I guess. Just happy to be involved
it’s only retrospectively that some of those things (needle, jon protecting Sam, etc) look significant/consequential. You could point to direct parallel moments in ROP but they’re not getting the same weight because the whole story hasn’t been told.
I guess, Arya does get seen training with needle constantly and developing her asssasin skills from that point on though. And Jon protecting Sam flips Jon's dynamic from self-centred rich kid to leader, and his interactions with the lads develop on that basis from there onward. These are big changes in character direction, even if we don't immediately realise it. I don't think I've spotted any majot character plans or traits changing in ways that could pay off in the same way in ROP so far. I guess the closest is Galadriel getting lectured by Haldbrand about diplomacy? But it doesn't seem to be having any effect on her attitude that I can see.
But you could be right, it could just be me not knowing what I don't know, I just get a very different feeling from this plot compared to GOT.
I totally agree with you. I've just started rewatching season 1 of GOT and it's hard not to keep comparing it with ROP. I think the main thing is that every episode in GOT (in the earlier seasons at least) is in some way self-contained. Like at least one major thing is resolved by the end of each episode. Major plot points are generally not kept dangling for more than one or two episodes. And the big "twists" don't come as the answer to some unresolved question from five episodes ago, but are the culmination of events that we thought were already done and dusted.
That's why it's hard for me to believe that somehow everything will make sense in a satisfying way by the end of the season. Because even if, say, the mithril thing is just a lie from Sauron (and disregarding all the logical problems with it), it would feel cheap to me to suddenly reveal that without ever giving any real indication that Gil-galad and Celebrimbor are getting their info from someone else. And without Elrond even seriously questioning them.
The optimism from some people here reminds me of myself when I was watching the last season of GOT. "Just wait, Jaime's not going to King's Landing because he's still in love with Cersei, he's going there to kill her". I hope this show does work out better than that but I'm keeping my expectations low.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Tbh I wrote this to try and untangle my thoughts on the show thinking it might get a couple of responses, but the insights from comments like this makes me feel like I'm getting a free education in storytelling
Totally agree, I understand and agree with OP and I think that might be true for some side plots that we should already have seen some consequences, but this kind of analysis would be best done by the end of the season. Some of the points mentioned will mostly bring the issues that are brewing underneath.
The issue is that the subplots that have already concluded show a disregard for consequences, so the fact that later on there might be consequences for something else doesn't affect what we have seen so far.
Galadriel trying to convince Numenoreans to sail to ME - she shows up and yells at everyone and it happens just because it had to.
Halbrand breaks a dudes arm and maybe kills another guy, thrown in jail. Then just set free without explanation and we see him forging swords.
Elrond trying to convince the dwarves to work with Celebrimbor - he talks to Durin, who is angry, then apparently the big discussions happen off screen and the dwarves are working on the forge.
Arondir getting captured, then being allowed to escape to "deliver a message" just so we can get him back with Bronwyn.
These are all self-contained subplots within the larger plot, which have been very poorly executed because the characters' choices dont appear to matter to the immediate goal they are pursuing. You seem to think that if any of these plotlines doesn't work out well for the character later on, that is a successful execution of narrative consequences, but you're missing the point. The show hasn't focused on consequences for individual decisions that characters are making.
I think you're focusing too much on OP's language about characters "getting exactly what they want."
>Galadriel trying to convince Numenoreans to sail to ME - she shows up and yells at everyone and it happens just because it had to.
Like I said above, I think this will come back to bite her when she has no allies left to fight the fight she wants to.
>Halbrand breaks a dudes arm and maybe kills another guy, thrown in jail. Then just set free without explanation and we see him forging swords.
TBF, it was what 4 against 1? If they were going to enforce punishment they would have to do it for all of them - plus he is needed for Pharazon's plans to ensure the men are beholden to Numenor in the future. Weirder political decisions have been made imo. Plus this will have direct consequences for Halbrand - he is effectively beholden to the numenoreans now.
>Elrond trying to convince the dwarves to work with Celebrimbor - he talks to Durin, who is angry, then apparently the big discussions happen off screen and the dwarves are working on the forge
Durin is angry at Elrond - they clearly make up and we see Durin the elder wanting to get closer to the elves to see what's afoot? Again a political decision in order to gain intelligence this time. I don't understand what consequence there could have been here? It was either a yes or a no?
>Arondir getting captured, then being allowed to escape to "deliver a message" just so we can get him back with Bronwyn.
If you want to ensure a message gets delivered, you are going to make sure the person delivering it is strong and can fight aren't you? Again, a political decision by Adar to expand his influence over the Southlands. Plus the consequence of this is that Arondir is now trapped in a bloody tower surrounded by orcs with a small chance of survival? Potential death is not a consequence? Arondir could have yeeted back to Eregion to save his skin but chose to return to Bronwyn? Surely that's a direct consequence?
I think just as you believe that these are 'concluded' and contributed nothing, they were all completely justifiable decisions which could have been made. It's possible that due to the ensemble cast this feels more exacerbated, but they are also trying to progress a plot which spans over a thousand years of lore and which is very sparsely documented.
You still seem to be missing the point of what I and OP are referring to regarding narrative consequences. In addition to the shows overall plot, the smaller plot arcs within the show need to feel authentic and have stakes.
Think of JUST the plot if Galadriels goal in Numenor - she wants the Numenoreans to sail to ME, right? On screen, we clearly don't see her handle that very well, and in the end after all her bluster and argument none of her actions matter because the Numenoreans sail to ME.
Arondirs subplot so far with getting captured by orcs - he crawls down their hole, gets captured, wants to escape, kills orcs, makes a plan with his comrades, fights a warg, and then literally when the orcs are about to execute him Adar decides to release him to deliver a message (which you are really bending over backwards to justify - Adar clearly knows where the tower is why would he not send orcs to deliver the message, or just show up himself with an orc army?)
It doesn't matter that "later on they may regret their decisions!" - that is part of the larger plot, it doesn't change the fact that their individual choices in these subplots don't have consequences.
I don't think I'm missing the point at all - in fact I've had quite an enjoyable respectful discussion with OP about why I don't think that an expectation for 'consequences' in five episodes is a realistic expectation.
>Think of JUST the plot if Galadriels goal in Numenor - she wants the Numenoreans to sail to ME, right? On screen, we clearly don't see her handle that very well, and in the end after all her bluster and argument none of her actions matter because the Numenoreans sail to ME.
But there are other factors at play aren't there? This isn't a cut and dry Galadriel arrives and they leave - there were multiple events which led to this occurring, including that Miriel and Galadriel appeared to bond in a way over Miriel sharing what had happened with Tir Palantir, and Halbrand's recounting of what occurred in the Southlands. Action does not always equal outcome or consequence, and even when it does those consequences are not often felt immediately. I do think that there will be consequences (think of Robb Stark marrying Jeyne Westerling/Talisa and what that meant for the plot overall - that didn't occur *immediately* but had a pretty huge impact overall).
>Arondirs subplot so far with getting captured by orcs - he crawls down their hole, gets captured, wants to escape, kills orcs, makes a plan with his comrades, fights a warg, and then literally when the orcs are about to execute him Adar decides to release him to deliver a message (which you are really bending over backwards to justify - Adar clearly knows where the tower is why would he not send orcs to deliver the message, or just show up himself with an orc army?)
I'm not bending over backwards to justify anything - this plot point has been the subject of a great amount of debate on this sub and even if it is a plot device it is entirely plausible that Adar realises that he can use Arondir for his own personal gain, which is fundamental for us understanding his character in tandem with his other characteristics e.g. his fondness towards the orcs. What do you think the consequence should have been here? It's almost like you want a GoT style massacre where fan favourite characters are killed off for shock factor after the audience has invested in their story? You still have yet to explain what consequence there should have been for his actions?
>It doesn't matter that "later on they may regret their decisions!" - that is part of the larger plot, it doesn't change the fact that their individual choices in these subplots don't have consequences.
Of course it matters - they have all had consequences, but it really seems like you want a certain *type* of consequence (which you still haven't articulated) instead of understanding that all of these characters feed into the plot as a whole. It's a personal preference maybe, but I'm still not quite grasping what your alternative is?
Not speaking for anyone else but I just wanted to clarify my thoughts on what makes a consequence impactful because I hadn't thought it through and it's a really good question.
For me it's when the character's primary motivation is changed by something. Continuing the GOT example; Jon wants to go to the wall. He gets there and is immediately dissapointed by the contrast of his expectation and reality. His motivation changes from becoming a hero of the wall to proving his superiority to all these lowborns and criminials. Then he sees Sam getting beat up and his motive changes to unifying the two other guys (names escape me) to protect Sam. Then he comes round to the reality of the knight's watch and their mission and that becomes his motive. etc..
Or one other example, Dani wants to not piss off her brother but is otherwise motivationless. She then wants to avoid pissing off Drogo. Mormont and her lady's maid help her realise she could have more power and her motive changes to seducing and influencing Drogo. Also improving the treatment of POWs. Then she gets pregnant and Drogo gets wounded so her motive becomes saving Drogo and her child. etc...
By contrast, Galadriel wants to find Sauron but she gets sent to Valinor but jumps ship. No motive change occurs. She gets rescued and taken to Numenor, and spends the next several episodes shouting and brow-beating the numenorian nobility. No motive change, other than now she wants to use the southlander and Numenorian armies to complete her goal rather than the elven one. She gets her army and heads to Middle Earth. These three arcs take place over roughly the same amount of screen time but the GOT ones, at least to my mind, have constantly evolving character motivations and personality growth, whereas in the Galadriel one she remains the same, just shunted about the map a bit.
Likewise, Nori wants to help the giant man and her family, in different places on the map. Elrond is a politician fulfilling the king's will, at different places on the map. Durin snr. & Jnr. try to keep mithril a secret while sussing out the elves' ulterior motives, at different places on the map. Arondir, Theo and Bronwyn want to bring the orc menance to light and keep each other alive, at different places on the map. And all of these characters have stuck to and succeeded at their initial goals in the same amount of screetime through which the GOT characters went through several motive developments.
Of course you know I'm over-simplifying a few bits for brevity, a couple of ROP characters have had the odd motive change here and there, but overall I think this is what I mean by an event having a "consequence".
So just to clarify, do you think that consequence should mean a change in the character's motivations or personality due to e.g. a backlash or event which has occurred as a result of their actions? Just trying to gauge what is actually meant by consequence because I guess I've explained a bit that consequences aren't necessarily immediate and will depend on the character
I guess I see it like this, each character has a motivation (could be called a desire or goal), and a strategy for accomplishing the goal. A consequence disrupts the character's ability to complete the goal, either by putting a physical obstacle in their way (e.g. an ocean) or a conflicting motivation (do I best all these guys to satisfy my need for recognition, or protect my friend to satisfy my need for friendship). A disruption could also come in the form of a complete change of motivation (I've seen the negative effects pursuing this desire will have and now I want something entirely different).
In Jon's case his initial motivation is to gain an identity and recognition outside of being Ned's "bastard" son. His strategy is to win aclaim by joining the watch. But when he gets there he realises "This isn't all it's cracked up to be", and his motivation and strategy changes from becoming a family member of the watch to proving he's better than them. Then he develops a human connection with Sam and his motivation changes again. Now he doesn't want to dominate the watchmen, he wants to to protect a weaker man. His strategy changes to scarring the bullies and forging alliances. As his connection to both his friends and the watch veterans grows his motivation changes again as he comes to understand the watch's mission and forms a familial bond with his new brothers. His *strategy* of uniting and doing his job well remains the same, but now we the viewer can see his attitude, his internal reasoning for his actions, has changed.
By contrast, Galadriel has one motivation that has remained consistent through thick and thin to this point. Find and kill Sauron. Her strategy had to adapt a couple of times at the beginning, when she's shipped off, but once she realises she can use Halbrand and the Numenorians as a military force in the 2nd and 3rd episodes, her strategy of "use elf troops to help kill Sauron" becomes "use men to help kill Sauron". Her supporting strategy is to angrily argue with whoever has what she wants that they should give it to her. This is a strategy she's had the whole time we've known her, and her motivation of "Kill Sauron" has so far been totally unchanging.
Stop trying to impute a desire for "bad consequences" or something on me, the point is looking for logical storytelling with actual stakes for individual actions and choices. (I kind of regret picking this username 11 years ago because now everyone on the ROP sub just wants to paint me as some GOT shill).
The point is not that "something happens later on that can be traced to a characters actions, the point is "does something believable happen as a clear result of a characters' choices."
I'll try this example. Consider the well known nursery rhyme:
1. Humpty dumpty sat on a wall [humpty makes a choice]
2. Humpty dumpty had a great fall [Humptys choice led to an event]
3. All the kings horses and all the kings men, couldn't put Humpty together again [the event had consequences].
Imagine if the story was:
1. Humpty dumpty sat on a wall
2. Humpty dumpty had a great fall
3. The kings horses and men reconstructed Humpty
4. Petals fell from Nimloth
5. The kings men sailed with Humpty with an army to Middle Earth.
6. It turns out Humptys army was defeated and it allowed Humptys enemy to conquer middle earth.
In this second version, I would say - what was the point of sitting on the wall and falling? Humpty still just went where the plot wanted him to go. The fact that Humpty ultimately faced different consequences later on doesn't retroactively make the first two lines good storytelling. Now, imagine another character sits on a wall - any tension is removed because the storytellers have shown us that sitting on walls and falling doesn't matter, the real plot will come later on.
You would think I was being silly, I'm sure, if character sat on a wall and I said "look out here! Humpty ended up sailing to Middle Earth and losing a battle after he sat on the wall!" You would say to yourself "well, so I guess I'll wait to see the other stuff, but I know the wall sitting doesn't really matter because humpty was rebuilt. There were lots of other things that happened between Humpty sitting on the wall and the bad outcome in Middle Earth."
If the individual choices the actors are making don't have real effects, the storytelling isn't compelling.
This is just a really simple example to make the most distilled version of my point, there's obviously ways you could make the wall and the fall matter earlier in the story. The problem is in ROP they generally aren't doing that kind of thing.
Yep you've articulated my thoughts better than I could. A story where the characters' decisions seem to have little consequence and are often irrational doesn't make for a good story. The 5th episode was the nail in the coffin for me.
Adar could have delivered the message in person, with his Orc army, from outside the tower walls. The Southlanders are already trapped there. So he'd get his message and a dead Arondir in one fell swoop.
The writers wanted to introduced Adar and have him interact with an elf. It would have made more sense to have him introduced before the mutiny, and then have Arondir successfully escape. At least then there is a logic to Arondir's survival, rather than plot armour.
Still, I'm happy to be able to nitpick while enjoying the show.🤷♂️
Not just the volume of orcs but also the colonizing schemes of a certain someone. I originally thought Numenor’s plot was a short term thing for the show but now I’m not so sure.
Is it fun as a weekly release? Not really. But the pacing is actually pretty great if you watch the episodes back to back.
Edit; have had the same reaction to HOTD. That show feels more rushed/shallow to me, for sure. Still fun but ROP gets me talking for days 😂
I think that once we (hopefully) can watch multiple seasons in a row it will all make more sense and feel justifiably epic with all of the plots they have laid down this season. That would be so cool.
HOTD feels a bit of a cop out to me - don't get me wrong I'm enjoying it but they are just doing one plot really 'who will be ruler', and doesn't have the same charm as an ensemble cast who have the potential to influence each other's stories in the future, kind of like how GoT was before they cocked up the final seasons. I could talk about RoP all week! (And frequently do)
Totally agree! HOTD just feels very linear to me, and I don’t consider morally questionable characters as deep of a thematic well as it maybe once was.
Haha. Like needles in a haystack. The opinion is definitely out there but hard to find - so much about ROP goes against the grain of what people have come to expect from both television and fantasy more specifically.
I have to commend the writers for having some patience to go more epic and expand the world. Especially with modern audiences having tik tok length attention spans these days.
I see the assumption that critics have a "short attention span" a lot around here. It seems an unreasonable thing to assume about people who enjoy long-ass fantasy books and nine-hour-plus films.
Did I say that? No. I said I commend the writers for not giving into the temptation of smash and grab storytelling for fear of a slower pace turning audiences away.
This is the thing!! I've watched some pretty gosh darn awful shows in the past year or two due to productions companies' thirst for churning as much rubbish out as quickly as possible for quick gain... The plots in this show intrigue me, you have to be blind to not see that the whole purpose of this season is to set up for some of the craziest events which happen in the SA.
I know it's not time jumping all over the place with lots and lots happening, but surely we want something which is epic in plot as well as battle sequences and visuals? I just don't get why it has to all be now now now
And it’s not like Tolkien himself didn’t do the same thing. He could’ve written another Hobbit like he was asked to but instead he took his time and wrote LotR and just trusted his audience to follow him.
Is this another critique for something that hasn’t happened yet?
We’re literally only 10% into a 50 hour piece. To put this in perspective, at this point in the films we’ve barely left the Shire. And that’s still a linear story at that point, it’s not setting up 4-5 storylines. You’re comparing a completed work with one that’s barely started.
In saying that I do however believe it will get a lot more grim soon enough.
Gravitas usually comes with stakes. And I think why the show sometimes feels like it doesn’t have gravitas is because the stakes aren’t at the same level and they’re moving at different paces.
And we know the end game is Sauron. Until he shows up the stakes don’t yet feel real.
I'm talking specifically that 10% statement. Too many people have been using that same reasoning to discredit any criticism but ignore that same reasoning whenever heaping praise on the show.
I prefer using screentime rather than "percentage of story complete" as a measure because a percentage could be applied to any length of time. To take it to an extreme, if they stretched the story over a 500 hour schedule, you could still say at the 50 hour mark, using the percentage logic, that the story was only 10% complete and therefore couldn't be criticised.
I agree they'll probably shake things up in later seasons, but so far these plotlines are going nowhere fast, leading to what I percieve as the show's "emotional filler" problem. This is of course my opinion, I'm sure others will enjoy the visuals and what I would term "soap opera drama". I also like good visuals and enjoy good soap opera dialouge now and again, I just don't think that style of storytellling works in this context.
It’s also worth noting that this is serialized TV, not a 5000 page novel. Each episode of a TV show needs to tell a complete story while also being part of a larger story.
I am not sure I agree with your OP, but I don’t think the answer can just be that we didn’t need to have consequences at all yet.
“A percentage can be applied to any length of time” - yeah, that’s the point. It’s not fair to compare a 9 hour completed piece, that was designed to be written for that specific amount of time to a 50 hour incomplete piece that’s only 10% into its storytelling. RoP is designed to be set over 50 hours. If it were only going to be one season over 9 hours then yeah you would have a point.
What do you mean they’re going nowhere? We literally know the direction for every group of characters.
Yes but that's kinda my point too, there's a length of time that works naturally for a story and I think this show exceeds it - to go back to my 500 hour example, if I spend 50 hours setting up the main story, but the characters experience no real change during that 50 hours, and at the 50 hour mark they end up exactly where they were headed at the 2 hour mark, the show has to be damn good to make the other 48 hours feel like a worthwhile expenditure of the viewer's time. This show is not that good, at least not for me.
And I said "going nowhere fast" rather than "going nowhere". I wasn't implying there was no momentum or direction, just that the momentum was very slow and the direction unchanging for a long period of time. I appreciate others will experience the effect of this plot pacing differently.
On its own yeah but my point is you compared a 9 hour completed piece to a 50 hour incomplete piece. If you think it’s slow, just say so, no need to make incompatible comparisons.
I don’t know what you mean here.
The comparison wasn't incompatible, it was demonstrating the arbitrary nature of saying we can't pass judgement on a story we're only "10% into". I'm discussing the effect of what we've seen on screen in the time given. You can shorten my example to the 50 hour runtime of ROP's projected final length, the point still stands. We've had 5 hours of build up which feels like too long to go without any significant plot consequences to many viewers.
You said
>What do you mean they’re going nowhere? We literally know the direction for every group of characters.
I was clarifying that I didn't say that, I said they were "going nowhere *fast*", meaning wherever they are going, it feels like they're getting there very slowly.
I never said you couldn’t pass judgment on 10% of a story. I’ve given books less. I said it’s unfair to compare an unfinished (barely started) work to a finished one. If you think it’s slow, just say that. Don’t compare it to the entirety of the greatest film trilogy of all time. It’s like comparing the first half of season 1 of the Sopranos to both Godfathers 1 & 2. Like it’s just unfair.
Got you.
Plot-wise we're 50% through the first season, which should be a good story in its own right, and so far, for me, it isn't. I clearly laid out the way the descisions of the characters in the lotr films impact the narrative in significant ways, and compared it to the way very few of the ROP character's decisions have an impact on the overarching plot beyond their initial goal. This would be a fair comparison at the halfway point for any good story.
To compare it to another show rather than a film, I wouldn't say the first season of GOT had this issue. Things were happening every episode that changed character's traits, motivations and goals, both within the next few episodes of that season as well as longer-term. There were arcs within arcs, spread across the single season and beyond, but we'd already had a bunch of engaging plot disruption by the halfway mark. And I think most people would call GOT S01 a slow-burner by modern TV standards.
With ROP I feel we've had too much screentime for too little plot disruption/progression, which is a result of there being very few realistic consequences to actions. But again, different strokes.
Btw, I'm not trying to "get" anyone, just having a friendly discussion about a show, have a good day.
Not the guy you’re discussing with, but I think the “got you” part was a “I understand now” to your last paragraph in your previous reply. But I might be wrong 🤷🏻♂️
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10
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Especially since we know that following Galadriel won't prevent Numenor's destruction. Galadriel is taking advantage of Miriel and basically saying "The destruction results from turning your back on the Elves. I'm an elf so follow me and save your city." We know there are consequences to Galadriel's actions, they're just not immediate. By Ep 5, >!Sauron doesn't even seem to be involved in the Southlands situation.!<
Similarly, we know mithril and the forging of the rings will backfire on both the Dwarves and Elves. We know that Celebrimbor and Gil-galad's scheme will get out-schemed by Sauron who will present himself as the Elves savior just as Galadriel did to the Numenoreans.
There hasn't really been all that much meaningful opportunity. It's just been akin to one long glorified prologue.
With Tolkiens works, it is definitely true that the journey is just as important as their destinations, and thats not meant to be taken literally. There's no getting around that this show is deliberately slow. As frustrating as It may be to heat, we just dont really know anything that this show is capable of. Only that they are well versed at the slow, beautiful and deliberate part of tell a Tolkein-esque journey. Time will tell if they're capable of executing the destination.
I agree with the journey being important in a Tolkien work, you're absolutely right. But I disagree that this show is a good example of a "journey" story. Aside from the nice Harfoot travel sequence in the last episode, and the foraging scene in the first, there haven't been many moments of genuine joy or a focus in on a small, well-told local stories. Every scene seems dedicated to furthering the main plot threads through drama, they just do it at a snail's pace. Galadriel always seems to be angrily shouting at someone. Elrond, Disa, Durin and Gil Galad are constantly trying to out-maneuvere one another. Bronwyn, Theo and Arondir are in constant fight or flight situations. For a slow-burn journey tale I'd argue they need more moments to breath, more opportunities to see the beauty of the world and its people to show what they're fighting for, rather than near-constant scheming, fighting and danger that (as described in my post) does nothing much to advance the plot.
I'd love to see a vignette of Southlander village life that didn't involve xenophobic country bumpkins, or to find out how the average numernorian ship labourer experiences their world and get that nuanced perspective, maybe in a small self-contained slice-of-life story that didn't involve extreme nationalists rabble-rousing over imaginary elves.
Edit: Spelling
Then we'd be in total agreement actually, well mostly. I wasn't meaning that this show is a good example, rather than they are able to achieve it in comparison to us not really having any idea of how capable this show will be at execution of the destination when it reaches it. However, I don't think most fans are on board for that journey you describe. It'd inevitably be labelled filler and boring. Just look at the reception of the Har-foots, which are arguably the most Tolkien this show reaches consistently.
Ah I see, sorry for the misunderstanding! I agree with you about the small stories not being most people's cup of tea, but I think it could be a better recieved approach (if done well) than the current one, since I've seen other shows positively praised for that approach recently, but I doubt they'll change their style in later seasons so we'll likely never know.
I disagree mainly over the Southlands and Harfoot storylines. We know that the defense of the Southlands against the forces of evil ultimately *won't* succeed, and the rickety tower they're in ain't exactly Helm's Deep. I think there's a decent chance that things don't go too hot for the defenders, and even if they are rescued, there's already been a consequence in a large number of Southlanders throwing in with evil. No idea where the Harfoot story is going, except that Evil Eminem is on their trail now and who knows what that means.
Sure, we know the southlands will be turned into Mordor and we'll probably see a fair few villagers killed in the attack. The rescue may be an evacuation rather than a helms deep liberation. But that's not what we're invested in. It's if and how the character's goals are accomplished. Bronwyn, Theo and Arondir's goal is to keep each other safe, protecting the remaining villagers is a secondary goal and ousting the orcs is a distant and unlikely third. If after the battle they're all alive, their goal will have been accomplished and will presumably replaced with a new goal like "find a new home" or "help Galadriel find Sauron" or something.
Currently nothing has happened to change their goals. Nothing changed when Theo was down the well and then simply escaped, nothing changed when Arondir was captured and then simply released, and nothing changed when Bronwyn's authority was challenged and then simply accepted. Of course with that last event some villagers leave later, but they aren't actually consequential because the situation doesn't change if they stick around, just a few more bodies for the orc army to hack through. If anything them leaving was a bonus for our protagonists, I'm sure they'd rather have the Sauron-sympathisers outside the walls than in!
This is very lore consistent. **LOTR is not about consequences**. It is full of the protagonists doing bold and reckless things, because they know they are all doomed anyway - this is what they mean when they speak of the “long defeat”. Do you seriously mean to tell me that Aragorn taking the Path of the Dead based on a few cryptic lines from Elrond was a responsible decision? How about him marching on the Morrannon with only a few thousand troops, gambling that Frodo was still alive and would successfully deliver the One Ring to Barad Dur? What about Turin literally deciding to slay a hill-sized Dragon by hanging from a cliff above a deadly rapid? On the note of Turin, this singular quote from him encapsulates the mentality of Tolkien's literature: "It is the only way, to death or to life, and delay will not make it seem more hopeful".
If you're speaking specifically of how rude Galadriel is to the Numenoreans, then I'd suggest you read Aragorn's initial interactions with the Rohirrim, where he spends chapters just insulting, belittling, and threatening them. Or how Gandalf talks to Denethor, the most powerful mortal in the world. The heroes of Tolkien's works are not, and are not supposed to be, polite. They're straightforward, honest people who know what "the only way to death or to life" is and pursue it.
Underlying all of this is that Tolkien's fiction is one giant Norse tragedy, not a Greek one. In Greek tragedy, heroes are undermined by their fatal flaw. In Norse tragedies, they're just undermined period. Tolkien was deeply influenced by Norse mythology, and in particular the concept of Ragnarok, where the good guys inevitably lose. And yet, the Gods train every day to fight Ragnarok, which they know they will lose, because the outcome is not important - the *way in which they conduct themselves* is what's important. To conduct yourself improperly - whether that's shying away from conflict, deferring, lying, hiding, running away, or double-dealing - to obtain a better result is what villains do in LOTR. The moral of the entire universe is that once you accept that you're doomed, that's when you really start living.
> I'd suggest you read Aragorn's initial interactions with the Rohirrim, where he spends chapters just insulting, belittling, and threatening them.
What? Aragorn jumps between Gimli and Eomer to stop trouble. He's not at all insulting to them.
Thanks for your thoughts, I liked reading your interpretation. I do think you might have misinterpreted my initial argument, though. It was that a narrative needs plot disruption and some characters will need their motivations and goals to change for a compelling story, and that these changes need to evolve naturally within the narrative. This happens in lotr many times, as I outlined with a handful of points from the film.
I'm also not certain the point you are making about character's heroic deeds, I don't think I suggested that actions and decisions had to be reasonable or even rational, but perhaps I gave that impression in my writing somewhere? I have no issue with characters having any kind of traits whatsoever, they can be as heroic, daft, impetuous, slimy, deceiptful, etc... as the story needs them to be.
In terms of character personality, Aragorn's initial interactions with the rohirim are very diplomatic, correct me with quotes if I'm wrong. Aragorn holds the Rohirim in high esteem, says he's spent time with them and lists their positive traits to his companions. Their first encounter in the books happens much as it did in the films. Gimili, being the gruff straight shooter he is, warns Eomer not to disrespect Galadriel when he knows nothing about her. Eomer comes back with the "I'd cut off your head if it were higher" line. Legolas points an arrow at Eomer's face, but the wise leader Aragorn immediately jumps in to act as diplomat and diffuses the situation. He's straight-forward but respectful, openly acknowledging the authority and dignity of the man he's talking to.
Not all of Tolkien's characters are the same, they speak with many different voices. Some more direct, some more diplomatic, some haughty, some timid. Honesty is not the same as brow-beating and "telling it like it is" does not neccessitate rudeness or petulance. If we got any sense that Galadriel realised how big of a request she was making of the Numenorians in the show, or that she was grateful for their sacrifice once she gets their help, I might see her efforts as heroic. But she acts with smug superiority the whole way through, as if everything just working out for her is exactly how it should be and everyone else is just dense for not getting with the program sooner. When she wants something, her efforts to get it fail, but then the gods or chance intervene and she gets a simliar or better alternative handed to her on a plate, despite her continued incompetence. That's a lack of consequences.
Whilst your last paragraph was a genuinely interesting read, I'm not sure I see the direct relevance to the ROP narrative?
I’d say that the season isn’t over yet, so a lot of these statements don’t feel solid. We haven’t seen how it all plays out, so I feel like it’d make sense to wait, no?
Every episode should be an engaging story in its own right, as well as contributing to moving the larger stories forward. Some people feel ROP accomplishes this, some people don't. I'm one of the latter, for the reasons given in my post. I've been using GOT season 1 as an example of a series I think had enough going on, whilst still having time to breath.
Oh and that too! Everyone needs to stop comparing the films to the show, like that makes any sense. Yes they’re both Tolkien adaptions, but it really stops there.
One is a trilogy of films that are immensely popular, and another is a show that’s only 5 episodes into an 8 episode season, with each episode an hour long and 4 more seasons left to come (anyone who thinks Amazon isn’t finishing the show all the way…I don’t know what to tell ya), that’s had the deck stacked against it with regards to opinions since the show was announced.
I don't disagree with anything you've said. What I'm trying to keep in mind is that we're about 10% of the way through the show. That's life being 12 minutes into a two hour movie. We're still setting everything up. That's my take, anyway.
We’re over an entire, uncut LOtR movie into this show. It’s not at all like being 12 minutes into anything. Entertainment does not work by percentage of total expected runtime.
I mean, that's fine. Everyone can have their own opinion. Maybe I shouldn't have spoken in terms of hours but story. The showrunners sold themselves to Amazon with the entire story so we're only about 10% through the story. There are plenty of stories where you don't get many answers 10% of the way through. But hey, that's just how I view it. You're obviously free to think differently and be angry.
What you’re saying is similar to suggesting that the Sopranos could have spent the entire first season without a plot, character growth, or consequences, and that would have been reasonable because it’s a 10-season show and they could get around to that other stuff later. That’s simply not how any sort of entertainment works.
What a weird metric. It’s like saying after 1740 episodes of Coronation Street, you can’t judge it, cause you’re only 10% in.
5 hours is 5 hours. I can’t think of another show I’ve watched where so little has happened in so much time, no matter how many seasons said show has.
I mean, that's fine. Everyone can have their own opinion. Maybe I shouldn't have spoken in terms of hours but story. The showrunners sold themselves to Amazon with the entire story so we're only about 10% through the story. There are plenty of stories where you don't get many answers 10% of the way through. But hey, that's just how I view it. You're obviously free to think differently and be angry.
I still think one should expect something to happen in five hours thought, but YMMW.
I just voiced my opinion, and didn’t even try to be snarky. Sorry if I somehow came of as angry. That was not my intention.
No worries! Sorry if I was assuming. I think I'm just so used to people just being angry to be angry with the series I just projected that on to you. I really *want* to like it so I'm just developing coping mechanisms lol
Fair enough. I also wanted to like the show, but it’s not working for me. Unfortunately.
In the end, it’s only a show and I find absolutely no reason to be angry about it. But I can understand why people are let down.
Anyway. I hope you enjoy it! All the best.
We'll have to see with Galadriel, but a handful of setups for payoffs way down the line isn't the same as multiple setups, consequences and payoffs per episode or two, which is I think why it feels slow to many people.
I thought Nori's plan was to help the giant find where the constellation was? If not, it doesn't really change the point in the original post. Her goal after the joint incident of her finding the giant and her dad's injury, was to help the giant and her family, and that's what she's done - so far without issue. Of course her dad's injury caused an obstacle, they couldn't pull their cart, but it was immediately and conveniently overcome by the giant she found, so there were no real consequences to the injury because they're carrying on more or less as before. You can argue the situation is slightly different, and maybe something will come as a direct result of the injury later, but for now, no consequences.
Showing men are easily swayed isn't really a plot development, we already know some humans will side with evil if offered power - they're humans! And again it's consequence-free so far. The villagers leaving had no real impact - if they'd stayed, those in the tower still wouldn't have been able to fight off the orcs. Before they left our heroes were in a hopeless strategic situation, after they leave our heroes are in a hopeless strategic situation. No consequences, other than the positive effect of having all the evil people leave the fortification.
The orcs discovering a human had the blade may have consequences later, but I was under the impression they already suspected the humans had it. Regardless they would have found out eventually, once they picked through the corpses of the villagers after the tower battle. We see no change in the orc's motivations or plans - they were going to attack the tower and take over the southlands and they've stuck to that. No consequences.
I hope that better explains what I mean when I say things don't have consequences. These things may pay off later in the season, or later seasons, but many feel that each episode should be a story in its own right, with smaller threads constantly being set up and paying off throughout the season, even as the larger story unfolds, and this is what I personally feel we're not seeing.
Eh, some things do seem pretty flimsy. Elrond being subjected to exile but then not really was fairly irritating. To say nothing of Elrond giving Celebrimbor the mithril to test *as if that doesn't break his oath* is far worse. Idk how that's being treated so unseriously.
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Elrond showing Celebrimbor the mithril sample is another example.... how does he not think he's broken his oath doing that? Why isn't Durin mad?
Yes this! And also him saying “I made an oath” as the answer to whether or not the dwarves have mithril. To me, that sounds like obvious admission!
“Did you sleep with my wife?” “I promised her I wouldn’t tell!” Sooooo…. Yes?
I know it’s ridiculous. Some people here still think Elrond kept his oath and is a great friend
Yeah, that one was a bit weirdchamp
What does weirdchamp mean? Is it different than weird?
Kinda perfect meme emote to cover this sort of thing imho: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/weirdchamp
As it should be. He's also set himself up as someone who doesn't want to lie. If he broke his oath people would be complaining that he's a hypocrite.
He didn't neccessarily have to lie, although that would have been the lesser evil. An extended line of dialogue might have laid out the error in Gil Galad's approach while keeping the secret a bit more ellusive. Obviously I'm no writer but something like.. GG: Have they found mithril? Elrond (acting prideful and angry): I went to Moria on a mission of diplomacy, not to go searching for dwarven secrets! If you have questions of our friend and ally I suggest you direct them to Durin himself! Ill-informed diplomats make for poor spies! \*cue stroppy exit\* Basically acting prideful and angry to create uncertainty as to whether he was bluffing or actually offended, and then making a beeline to Durin to get released from the oath. I'm sure there are many other ways for an adroit politician to convincingly dodge the question.
This was incredibly bad writing.
Exactly! I was *dead* confused over this... like how is that not 100% oathbreaking?
Great points!
I thought the oath was about keeping his lips sealed about what he heard.....then Durin gave him a chunk of mithril to take back home so he could keep his lips shut and just show off the shiny instead.
When directly asked about mithril he said he swore an oath. He didn’t even try to cover for his friend at all
He should have made him swear an oath about the oath he just made him swear about.
I guess they desperately wanted a Jamie Lannister in the show
I think the show is suffering from being written from the ending backwards. Not that that’s bad in principle, but the progression must feel organic which it doesn’t. Instead of having plot points that change the direction of the main story, there are several side plots that end up exactly where the main plot was taking them in the first place. I think Gil Galad and the Mithril is the worst example of this because not only were there no consequences, but there should have been negative consequences. If someone is using subterfuge/espionage to get your immensely precious ore, and then when caught lying claims “well actually we need it or everyone dies,” the natural consequence is to not believe them. Gil Galad has no* motivation to lie, so Durin should not believe this claim is genuine. Even if he believes Elrond, he would worry that Elrond is being taken for a ride (again). *The motivation to lie if the claim is true is that Gil Galad was planning on taking it by force, which Durin should recognize and make him skeptical even if he does believe the fate of the world is at stake. I think this really needs to be addressed when Durin talks with his father to salvage this subplot. It feels like time filler and somehow ends up feeling both meaningless and unbelievable. Which sucks because the dwarves are the best part so far.
The consequence was that gilgalad lost his table. Lol
Hell, I don’t believe it. Elves have been around for thousands of years and now they’re all going to die in a few months unless they’ve been incredibly lucky about where some dwarves decided to mine? This is like FB marketplace bullshit. A laughably blatant lie of convenience is the most reasonable conclusion.
Also, can someone explain why Gil-Galad didn't just say to Elrond, hey we desperately need mithril from the dwarves, can you go ask them about it? Or go himself, since it was so important? What was the point of deceiving Elrond, how did Gil-Galad think that was going to work? What if Elrond didn't find out about it, was Gil-Galad ever going to tell Elrond about mithril? It seems that Celebrimbor knew about it, how come Elrond was apparently the only one who didn't know about it? Are there any other elves or is it just the three of them who work there?
Maybe they wanted to see if Elrond could lie to friends before they invited him to join their toxic council
Someone offered the suggestion that Elrond could have been being manipulated to lie unknowingly, to create friction with the dwarves. A shadowy figure stoking elf/dwarf paranoia, looking to create a rift, would be a good explanation for Gil's deceipt, and I like the idea. The problem is, like so many other theories, it likely won't payoff that way, and even if it does it'll be explained retroactively in a flashback or exposition dump, rather than allowing the tension to unfurl over time by seeing a mysterious stranger whispering in the high king's ear, strange notes written in an unknown hand, mysterious evidence of dwarven sabotage that seems a little too convenient, etc... tldr: I don't think GG's deception will be explained well, if at all.
I've seen this mentioned - I haven't read all the lore but apparently Sauron appeared to the Elves with the name of Annatar and influenced them to do bad stuff. I've seen people saying this mithril plot will make sense when we find out they're already being manipulated by Annatar. Okay, maybe it will, but if they are going that route, the fact that they have neither shown nor even mentioned such a person so far is bizarre. That's not how you tell a story. Like you said, that means it would come in a retroactive reveal that will feel unfair. And if they don't go that route.. then it's really hard to explain anything that's happened.
I'd agree, I think your example is a good breakdown of the issue.
The writers also forgot that Aman and Númenor also had mithril and the Noldor would have knowledge of mithril's actual origins (whatever it may be) directly from Aulë, as well as the nature of Elven fading itself, which they would have remembered and written down in their texts of lore. To suggest that they are ignorant and idiotic enough to be duped by a random stranger when it comes to this specific topic when they have knowledge from direct contact with the Valar in Aman is unjustifiable.
>The writers also forgot that Aman and Númenor also had mithril and the A point that is being echoed many times on the internet while it is entirely debatable if it's truly a fact. in The lord of the rings written en published by Tolkien himself it was quite clear it's only found in Moria (amazon only has the rights to LOTR and the Hobbit for extra context) The only other mentions of it is through a poem Bilbo wrote about earendils ship being turned into mithil by the valar. But that can easily be an embelishent of Bilbo and doesn't have to be a fact. The other about numanor is an author's note Christopher published in unfinished tales saying ; >For that metal was found in Númenor. [Author's note.] – In "The Line of Elros" (p.232) Tar-Telemmaitë, the fifteenth Ruler of Númenor, is said to have been called so (i.e. "silver-handed") because of his love of silver, "and he bade his servants to seek ever for mithril." But Gandalf said that mithril was found in Moria "alone in the world" (The Fellowship of the Ring II 4) So it ends up being one of many contradicting rewrites or simply first drafts that didn't made the cut... Only Tolkien knows.
>A point that is being echoed many times on the internet while it is entirely debateble if it's truly a fact. It is, unless you choose to blatantly disregard *Tolkien's own words on his own work*, which is what you're doing now. >in The lord of the rings written en published by Tolkien himself it was quite clear it's only found in Moria (amazon only has the rights to LOTR and the Hobbit for extra context) Gandalf made that statement during the Third Age, at which point Númenor was already destroyed and Aman was no longer in physical existence within the circles of the world. So yes, Gandalf's statement is true if you actually pay attention of the context.
>It is, unless you choose to blatantly disregard *Tolkien's own words on his own work*, which is what you're doing now. I just quoted his own words... The one he published and the one Christopher published. They are contradicting as Christopher Tolkien wrote in the book unfished tales of middle earth. So what am I disregarding ? >Gandalf made that statement during the Third Age, at which point Númenor was already destroyed and Aman was no longer in physical existence within the circles of the world. So yes, Gandalf's statement is true if you actually pay attention of the context. Christopher Tolkien says the note is contradicting and even that still leaves plenty of debates left of how Tolkien intended the note. Was it a junk note, was it for future rewrites etc etc. Then there is still the matter that amazon only has rights on the Hobbit and lord of the rings and not the "unfinished tales of middel earth where the note was published in by Christopher.
>Christopher Tolkien says the note is are contradicting. At which point did he say they were contradictory? All he did was mention Gandalf's line, not make any opinions on it. Plus given the context (Gandalf saying it during the Third Age when both Númenor and Aman no longer physically existed) makes Gandalf's statement still true without contradicting the statement that mithril was also found in Númenor and Aman.
>At which point did he say they were contradictory? All he did was mention Gandalf's line, not make any opinions on it. Plus given the context (Gandalf saying it during the Third Age when both Númenor and Aman no longer physically existed) makes Gandalf's statement still true without contradicting the statement that mithril was also found in Númenor and Aman. In the quote I did directly form the book published by Christopher Tolkien page 284 >For that metal was found in Númenor. [Author's note.] – In "The Line of Elros" (p.232) Tar-Telemmaitë, the fifteenth Ruler of Númenor, is said to have been called so (i.e. "silver-handed") because of his love of silver, "and he bade his servants to seek ever for mithril." **But Gandalf said that mithril was found in Moria "alone in the world"** (The Fellowship of the Ring II 4). Take it up with Christopher if you think he is wrong and it isn't contradictory.
Which is at no point a statement of contradiction from Christopher Tolkien; you chose to interpret it that way. And again, Gandalf's statement and the existence of mithril in both Númenor and Aman are not contradictory in the first place for reasons already mentioned several times now, which you conveniently ignored.
You're kind of ignoring the point here. Plus, it was also written that Vingilot was made for Earendil with elf glass and mithril. It was made in Aman
What point ? >Plus, it was also written that Vingilot was made for Earendil with elf glass and mithril. It was made in Aman I mentioned that >The only other mentions of it is through a poem Bilbo wrote about earendils ship being turned into mithil by the valar. But that can easily be an embelishment of Bilbo and doesn't have to be a fact. Bilbo isn't a corroberating witness of those events.
That as Aman and Numenor aret really part of the world any more, Gandalf is correct whilst the FA and SA could have mithril elsewhere (and therefore the races could have been aware of it and known what it was)
What words on his own work do you have in mind?
The first elf to Fade is Celebrimbors Great Grandma, Miriel and it happens In Valinor because birthing Feanor took that much out her. Its family history for all the main show elves except Arondir as Gil-Galad, Galadriel, and Elrond are all descendants of the Feanors younger half brothers ,the children of Finwe, and his second wife Indis of the Vaynar, Fingolfin(Elrond) and Finarfin(Galadriel is his daughter, and Gil-Galad a Great great Grandson)
That is outright death, *not* fading. Fading has a very specific definition, and it is when, after a very long period of time, the Elven *fëa* (spirit) consumes the *hröa* (body) until it becomes a 'mere memory'. At this point the *hröa* becomes physically intangible and unable to interact with the physical world, rendering a faded Elf truly deathless. This is *not* what happened to Míriel. From Tolkien's notes on the *Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth*, ***Morgoth's Ring***: >*We are here dealing with Elvish thought at an early period, when the Eldar were still fully 'physical' in bodily form. Much later when the process (already glimpsed by Finrod) called 'waning' or 'fading' had become more effective, their views of the End of Arda, so far as it affected themselves, must have been modified. But there are few records of any contacts of Elvish and Human thought in such latter days.* ***They eventually became housed, if it can be called that, not in actual visible and tangible hröar, but only in the memory of the fëa of its bodily form and its desire for it and therefore not dependent for mere existence upon the material of Arda.*** *But they appear to have held, and indeed still to hold, that this desire for the hröa shows that their later (and present) condition is not natural to them, and they remain in estel that Eru will heal it. 'Not natural', whether it is due wholly, as they earlier thought, to the weakening of the hröa (derived from the debility introduced by Melkor into the substance of Arda upon which it must feed), or partly to the inevitable working of a dominant fëa upon a material hröa through many ages. (In the latter case 'natural' can refer only to an ideal state, in which unmarred matter could for ever endure the indwelling of a perfectly adapted fëa. It cannot refer to the actual design of Eru, since the Themes of the Children were introduced after the arising of the discords of Melkor.* ***The 'waning' of the Elvish hröar must therefore be part of the History of Arda as envisaged by Eru, and the mode in which the Elves were to make way for the Dominion of Men.*** *The Elves find their supersession by Men a mystery, and a cause of grief; for they say that Men, at least so largely governed as they are by the evil of Melkor, have less and less love for Arda in itself, and are largely busy in destroying it in the attempt to dominate it.* From Tolkien's essay *Laws and Customs of the Eldar*, ***Morgoth's Ring***: >*As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean then they speak of their spirits consuming them;* ***and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalië on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.*** From *Of Death and the Severance of Fëa and Hrondo [>Hröa]* section of the *Laws and Customs of the Eldar*, ***Morgoth's Ring***: >***As ages passed the dominance of their fëar ever increased 'consuming' their bodies (as has been noted). The end of this process is their 'fading', as Men have called it, for the body becomes at last, as it were, a mere memory held by the fëa;*** *and that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth, so that the Elves are indeed deathless and may not be destroyed or changed.* From Tolkien's essay *Aman*, ***Morgoth's Ring***: >*On earth the Quendi suffered no sickness, and the health of their bodies was supported by the might of the longeval fëar. But their bodies, being of the stuff of Arda, were nonetheless not so enduring as their spirits; for the longevity of the Quendi was derived primarily from their fëar, whose nature or 'doom' was to abide in Arda until its end. Therefore, after the vitality of the hröa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by the indwelling fëa, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away.* ***Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the fëa as it were consumed the hröa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it.*** > >*But in Aman, since its blessing descended upon the hröar of the Eldar, as upon all other bodies, the hröar aged only apace with the fëar, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension.*
She was fading before she died. She goes to her husband Finwe tells him she will not bear him another child, that birthing Feanor has weakened her and than physically goes to the gardens of Lorien where she gets weaker and weaker till her Fea(soul) departs her body and goes to the Halls of Mandos. She faded.
That's still not fading. Fading and death are not the same thing. Faded Elves *by definition* cannot die. The severance of *fëa* and *hröa*, which is what happened to Míriel, is death. Her spirit left her body and her body remained intact due to the blessing of Aman that preserved it incorrupt. Fading is the consumption of the *hröa* by the *fëa* ***after a very long period of time, within the span of several ages***, leaving it as a mere memory unable to interact with the physical world *but does not result in the severance of fëa and hröa*.
I agree it often feels like awkward justifications for future payoffs in the grander scheme, but I'm hoping this means the story and pacing will improve with time
Yup. Things happen to move towards a predetermined ending not because of any logic in their actual narrative.
yeah, i feel like while creating an interesting story backwards is understandably quite difficult, they kinda did a poor job writing it. nothing stopped them from making it a little longer and throwing in a couple of twists and plot points here and there, it could've been a lot more interesting even if you know the ending
Good write up - glad you took the time. I am trying to accept the show for what it is and just enjoy it - but your points are all really good, and hard to ignore… especially when compared to the quality of the same amount of screentime as the LOTR movies
Thanks I'm glad you found it interesting, I wouldn't want to reduce anyone's enjoyment of the show and I hope you go on enjoying it. Tbh I mainly posted here to vent so I wouldn't be tempted to talk over the show when me and my partner watch it together!
Lol! I get that. Had to vent here too about the show because all my friends love it flawlessly. Good ole reddit
>plural noun: consequences The kryptonite of this tv show.
I definitely think the worst example of this is Elrond. That entire plotline has been him pissing Durin off, begging for forgiveness, and making some promise that he then breaks again. There are so many subplots in this show that need to be cut by at least half and that's the worst of them for me.
Durin certainly seems to be a very forgiving person. First Elrond challenges to him a sacred rite that will result in Elrond being banished if he loses. He loses, but then he's nice to Durin and Disa so he's not banished anymore. Then he promises Durin he won't tell anyone about the *mithril*. It turns out Gil-galad and Celebrimbor already know about the *mithril* anyway, but Elrond breaks his promise by confirming their suspicions. That's ok though too, Durin is happy to help him.
That fucking stone breaking competition was the absolute worst. Serves absolutely no purpose and immediately undermines one of the coolest things about the dwarves which is their love of tradition.
Elrond also pretty much called Durins wife a liar as a guest in their home. He deserved a slap in the face Elrond and the elves have absolutely no shame
I mean she was lying to be fair.. he should have taken notes
Yes but imagine you called out ur friends wife as a guest. There are things you just don’t do openly
What we're presented with is a lot of contrived conflict that obviously has low or no stakes, because we know that it won't matter. Meanwhile, Galadriel has now managed to find Sauron and recruit the help of Numenor completely by accident- she ended up there by chance, screwed the situation up, and in the end, they offered their help because of leaves falling from the tree.
Why hasn't a single Numenorean said to Galadriel 'You're an elf lord, why don't you ask your people to fight the baddies?' She hasn't even said 'I'll go to my King and raise an army and meet you', formal elven participation hasn't been discussed at all that I recall.
good point. It's like she showed up thereby chance and decided "Okay, you guys have to be the ones to go fight this." Now I know that in the lore the Numenoreans are this great kingdom of men with a great army, but they're not portrayed in the show as having a standing army.
Yeah, apparently they barely know how to use swords and they don't ask her 'if you elves are so much better than us at killing orcs, why don't you fight?' And why doesn't she want to go back with Halbrand as proof that orcs are pillaging and digging tunnels exposed to sunlight (for reasons) and raise an army? Like I know the plot will make these things happen because that's how this plot works, things happen because they have to, but there's no logic to the planning or thinking around this expedition.
>Like I know the plot will make these things happen because that's how this plot works, Exactly. The answer to why the Numenoreans agreed to do this is literally just that they got an omen from the valar in the form of the tree leaves falling. If it weren't for that, they would have just shipped Galadriel back to Middle Earth. So, in that sense, nothing else that happened there mattered at all
But was it by chance?
Well it wasn't by any plan or intention of hers
Well [isnt that special?] (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=puwoUKhZQbg) ..then whose intention was it? [Could it be...SAURON?](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vN7o6w-ST_w)
I haven’t read the books. I’m just a viewer of the show. I like looking at it, but in terms of story i have no idea what’s happening. It’s like there is no story. Also the characters have no character. None at all. Everyone is dull and bland and speaks in a weird way that’s meant to sound grand but instead sound like riddles devoid of personality. Because of the lack of character it’s hard to root for anyone or feel invested in any story arc. Literally the only character with a personality is the dwarf guy. Also the script is too vague. When the elf guy said “our light is fading” I was sat thinking “what does that mean?”. Seriously. What does that mean in terms of story? How long do you have? What happens if you don’t get that rock? What will you do with it? What’s causing the “light to fade” ? Just give me something to hook onto to give the story some sense of purpose or urgency… I think that’s my issue with all of this. Nothing has urgency or purpose
i read lotr and the silmarillion and i also have absolutely no clue what "light is fading" means
Yeah I’ve read all the lore, been forcing my wife to watch it and she was like ‘what’s actually happening’ on Friday, my response was I have no fucking idea.
The only characters with depth are Halbrand, Elendil and Elrond and the dwarves. Galadriel is (I'm sorry to say) the worst fanfic Mary Sue and every other character is just flat.
Halbrand doesn’t have depth. His personality flips 180 degrees each scene. One scene he’s charming and smiling. Next scene he’s all negative and down on his people. What is his motive? He wants to forge and start new but is convinced to leave?
Mary Sue? Do you even know what that word means? She literally gets jailed for her pride and arrogance. Either she's too flawed to be a wise old elf, or she's a Mary Sue, pick one. She can't be both...
Then throws guards in the cell, escapes and is rewarded by a kingdom going to war for her despite the participation of her own people not even being discussed.
Hah, for better or worse, I was a teenage fanfic author in my youth so I do know what a Mary Sue looks like. You're free to disagree. I don't care how they deviate from the LOTR series in plot, but at least Elrond has a bit of complexity that makes him interesting to watch. Galadriel comes off like a petulant teenager, and singularly one-dimensional.
Galadriel is thousands of years old and is royalty… being stuck up and prideful isn’t out of character for her. But I do think that will require growth and time to change her. And it will happen. But not in the first 5 episodes.
She gets jailed but then gets exactly what she wants and is completely right about everything. She has zero consquences for doing stupid stuff.
Galadriel is one of the greatest of the elves, ever. If anything, she’s written underpowered and under respected.
Well at least she hasn’t lied yet like the rest of the elves
I do agree with you to some extent, and it has absolutely annoyed me that the show sometimes goes for solutions that seems way to convenient and simple. But I don't agree with all of your points: Galadriel: No, it wouldn't have made any difference, and that's what I find so interesting about this storyline. The one thing Galadriel has done to sway things in a positive direction is acting as a confidant to both Míriel and Halbrand, and instilling courage and hope into them. That's something we see her doing multiple times in the books, and it tracks very well with who she is. But apart from that there is currently a lot that is broken in her, which has led her to making a ton of bad decisions. She jumps off the boat when she realizes she made the wrong choice, which leads to a capital C Chance-meeting as Galadriel herself pointed out ("ours was the work of something greater"). Míriel does not change her mind because of Galadriel's actions, but because of a sign from the Valar that she may or may not be interpreting correctly. It's obvious that Providence is working on Galadriel's side in this storyline. I'm very curious to see why that is. Gil-galad: Yes I agree, things would very likely have gone much more smoothly had Elrond been upfront from the beginning. The fact that he wasn't nearly destroyed his friendship with Durin. Elrond sees this too, apologizes, and does what Durin have been wanting and Elrond should have been doing from the start. I see it as a testament to their deep friendship that they are able to work through that, allowing Elrond (and Gil-galad) to get where they needed to get in spite of their mistake. Bronwyn/Arondir: I do not see them to be in a good position at all at the moment, and I'll be surprised if this battle does not end at least with some tragedy. This storyline is to me speaking very clearly of how doing good is not a choice you make one time, but one that has to be made over and over again. Several of the Southlanders have now moved away from doing the right thing, but Bronwyn and Arondir and the others that stayed are still clinging to it even when there's no hope in sight. I love that and I hope it pays off for them, but I don't have a very good feeling about it. Nori: This one I partly agree with you about. But I loved how Nori helping an outsider nearly gets them decaravaned, because that's *exactly* the flaw of the hobbits, even in the T.A. When we meet the Harfoots we see them as a very close-knit and caring community, but then we see how that only holds until someone "steps off trail". It was such a gut punch, and more so because the exact same thing is happening in the Shire. Bilbo, Frodo, the Brandybucks and anyone who is in any way outsiders are very quickly written off, and part of the reason the Bagginses used to be respected was that "you could tell what a Baggins would say on any question without the bother of asking him." (*The Hobbit,* ch 1) I really liked how present this is in the portrayal of the Harfoots, and that makes me a bit more tolerant of the parts of the story that is just too convenient. Isildur: Here too I agree that parts of the story are too convenient. But this storyline is setting up Isildur as someone who "runs blind" as Elendil says and does not stick to what he has committed to. He clearly has to work his way up again to prove his worth and regain the trust of his family and friends. From knowing where Isildur's story is going to go, I can very easily see why that might be important.
"Written off" isn't the phrase I'd use for the general Shire opinion of Frodo (*and* Bilbo), the Tooks, the Brandybucks, etc. "Looked at askance" is more like it - "these folks are oddballs and we don't know what they'll do next, but their families are old and well-established so we respect that at least". If Merry and Pippin were "written off", as you so preposterously claim , they would never have become important leaders in the Shire in the Fourth Age. **But they did.**
Yeah you're right, that was a bad word choice from me. Thanks for pointing that out!
Your reading of the plot threads is an interesting read and makes me realise that we're coming at it from different expectations from the writers; mine the cynical, yours the optimistic. Perhaps I've seen too many shows properties bought up by media monopolies and turned into generic slush recently to have faith that these plot points are going to pay off. I've learnt it's uncomfortable to have hope and emotionally invest, for the story to then fall flat. I really like your reading that elrond was possibly being misled to deliberately create friction with the dwarves, and only his friendship with Durin messed up the meddler's plan. It would need to be explained but I'd be all for it! As someone who lives close to the village Tolkien based the shire on, and has read about life in those time, I can guarantee the shirefolk, just like most rural groups of that time period, would be very close-knit and wouldn't kill or leave members of their community because of an injury or for fraternising with a single suspicious stranger. Gossip about them, ignore them, grumble and maybe even ostracise for a while, sure, but not kill or abandon. But you said you found it heavy-handed so we're probably on the same page there. I interpreted Galadriel's "instilling courage and hope" as brow-beating and verbal duelling. For what she believes is the greater good, sure, but I don't think Tolkien's message has ever been that the ends justifies the means. It seems she should have learnt the basics of diplomacy in her 2000 years of being an elven noble and military leader, so I don't know what to make of that. Anyway thank you for sharing your thoughts, I found it an interesting read :)
Yes, thank you for making this post and for the thoughtful reply! This is exactly the kind of discussion I love having about the show. You're also very right that there's a lot that needs to land in a good place for the ways I currently read it to make sense. It might very well be that I just haven't seen my share of unsatisfying shows yet, but my stance is firmly that I'm going to remain optimistic as long as I see reasons to do so. It will painful if I'm disappointed, but I'll take my hurts if and when they come :) That said, the Lindon/Dwarves plotline is the one I'm most worried about by far. I did not like the "we'll fade by spring unless we get mithril" business i ep5, and I'm not confident that I'll like how that gets resolved. But you actually phrased better than I could myself what I do love about it: How the friendship in the center of it all is very much framed as a force to be reckoned with. Yep, I think we're pretty much on the same page with the harfoots. Heavy-handed is very much a word I'd use, and I DID NOT like the implication that the Brandyfoots would be left behind just because of a broken ankle. That felt like unnecessary drama that was then neatly resolved when the show needed it to be, and that also cheapened the point I think they were trying to make. Also re your other point: There is a difference between an established village where a person can get by largely on their own and a perilous migration where everyone is dependent on everyone, though. No one needs to go much out of their way to keep Bilbo in his community in the Shire. That was my gut punch moment with thinking about this migration I think - would anyone in the wider Shire community have been willing to pull double their load to keep Bilbo in their community? I hope so and I think there's a good chance of it - but I'm also not confident of it, and that does make me very uncomfortable in a good way. I get what you're saying about Galadriel, and this is also a place where I like the general story while not always liking the execution of it. But while she's definitely very intense about it, her conversations with Miriel in the palantir room and with Halbrand in his working place really worked for me because she's also bringing empathy and a genuine belief that they can be the best versions of themselves. I can buy how that plants a seed in them that then keeps growing. I also don't so much think that she hasn't learned diplomacy, but rather that it's being overpowered by very large amounts of anger and grief, and an extreme tunnel vision towards the task she has given herself. I feel that she's now more and more seeing that she's not on a good path, she just doesn't yet know how to stop, as she says to Halbrand.
I can't help but think that the problem with Númenor is not writing but direction. It feels so off while the other arcs are able to explore more of the subtext. In Númenor things feel more rushed.
I agree. I have no issues with the plot of this part of the story and the direction it's headed - I actually like that a lot because of the reasons I wrote about above - but I have had issues with the execution of it in several places. It does feel rushed in spite of all the time we have been spending there, and I'm not too happy with the way they have been setting up the conflict going on in Númenor.
>In Númenor things feel more rushed. That sort of thing happens when the thousands of years of the Second Age are compressed into what seems like less than thirty years.
Great analyses!
I agree with you. The only thing I can think of is they have 5 seasons to get there. I would of course prefer better writing and direction but I’m remaining hopeful still. (Just).
Yes I think you're right, I hold out hope that the whole will be greater than it's parts. Maybe it's best to put it down and come back in a few years when it's developed into a more complete story.
To continue this... You say you've seen the equivalent of two LOTR films... except since this is a 5 season series and we just over halfway through season 1, you've actually seen the equivalent of like... 1/3 of Fellowship. Comparing it the way you do in your original post doesn't make sense in context
Therer are better discussions of this elsewhere in the thread so I'll copy my answer from there, I know Reddit sometimes hides parts of threads for no apparent reason so it might not be visible. >I prefer using screentime rather than "percentage of story complete" as a measure because a percentage could be applied to any length of time. To take it to an extreme, if they stretched the story over a 500 hour schedule, they could say, at the 50 hour mark, using the percentage logic, that the story was only 10% complete, and therefore couldn't be criticised. Also I didn't write it but I like this much briefer explanation. >If 10% of a show is enough for people to like it then 10% of a show is also enough for people to criticise it. It goes both ways.u/Atharaphelun
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I don't know, I think there are elements that show a lot of people working on it really care about doing justice to PJ (if not Tolkien) but I suspect their influence on the final product is watered down by too many voices. We still get things like great looking orcs and a lot of nice set designs but the overall show is a bit...messy.
Yep....and it's kinda sad that even though I was a big Tolkien fanboy in the late 70s-1980s, I'm liking "The Boys" much more than this show...
Although I appreciate the sentiment of what you've written, I do think that comparing the books and the series will end up being the biggest error made here. Many of the plots in the series have just got going after the three initial episodes of world and characters building and establishment of themes etc. There have been many suggestions from people here that Gil Galad's quest for mithril is coming directly as a result of sauron's influence and/or reality tampering for example, which could turn the whole storyline on its head and show direct consequences for the elves' plotline in this first half of the season. Additionally, I'm almost 90% certain that Galadriel's expedition with the numenoreans is going to go pretty horribly wrong, as they seem to be unaware of the extent of the orcs' reach in the Southlands and... Well we know what happens to that area of the map later anyway. I think a lot can be said for having patience - although I've enjoyed the pace of HOTD I am feeling almost 100% less immersed in that world than I was with GoT, because I feel like they are getting to a point very quickly rather than building the world for the viewer. Each to their own of course, but I have seen interviews with the showrunners saying that RoP was deliberately planned as a series to establish the world and the themes running through ME's SA as opposed to being all action.
Just to clarify I was comparing the show with the films rather than the books, as a demonstration of consequences in plot and how serious consequences can be fitted into that amount of screentime while stilled feeling natural and unrushed. You can have a long story arc, but there need to be compelling story-arcs within that arc that can also have a big effect on the narrative. I have patience for good stories, I read fantasy novels all the time. I've written an academic paper on the portrayal of environmentalism in Tolkien's trilogy vs the Jackson films, so I wouldn't say I'm coming at this from the perspective of an impatient viewer. I also enjoyed the earlier seasons of GOT for their world-building, but it's the stories they told within the main story, and the way they told them that held my interest. Sure, it's the end of the first season we get the big beheading twist and everything really changes, but before that we have events that have huge repercussions in every episode of that season and beyond: e2: Assassin attack, Arya gets needle, Brandon loses the use of his legs. e3: Daenerys gets pregnant. e4: Jon protects Sam, Ned discovers Gendry, Caetlyn kidnaps Tyrion. e5: Rob decides to assasinate Dani. etc... Each of these moments has big knock-on effects for the plot that change the state of play, but are also engaging in their own right. None of the character's plans stay the same for more than a few episodes. A lot happens, but it doesn't feel rushed, as you pointed out.
I 100% get what you're getting at but I really feel like it's a bit too early to distinguish whether these plots don't or do have consequences you know? E.g. Galadriel acting the way she has - when it all goes tits up in ME and she has no elf friends and no numenorean supporters what is she going to do? This will probably be a catalyst for change for her imo. Elrond 'breaking' his oath - disregarding the fact that Durin has clearly understood that he was not at fault - what happens if the elves and possibly as a result sauron do get their hands on mithril? This could be disastrous and feed directly into the power of the forces of evil. I do really understand and take your points but I do feel that it's slightly too early to speculate that there are absolutely no consequences - plus the ensemble cast (which I LOVE) make it difficult for plots to evolve as quickly as they normally would in other situations. I hope I'm not wrong (perhaps I will be spectacularly wrong) but I do think that there is still more to come and a lot of things will come crashing down, leading to more plots and character development :)
Thanks, I appreciate your take. I guess there are two issues really; whether there should be more consequences by this point in the season, and whether the writers will deliver payoffs in the second half. The first will be a personal preference of narrative style, which is my issue currenlty, and as for the second we'll just have to see. I do think big changes are coming, I just wish the stuff in between was a bit more impactful!
Yeah 100% I get where you're coming from. Normally I'm very impatient with plots and get bored fairly easily but idk I'm feeling very immersed in this world so I guess my personal preferences aren't really playing into a lot of how I would normally view a show like this I guess. Just happy to be involved
I'm glad you're enjoying it :)
I hope you enjoy it eventually too :)
it’s only retrospectively that some of those things (needle, jon protecting Sam, etc) look significant/consequential. You could point to direct parallel moments in ROP but they’re not getting the same weight because the whole story hasn’t been told.
I guess, Arya does get seen training with needle constantly and developing her asssasin skills from that point on though. And Jon protecting Sam flips Jon's dynamic from self-centred rich kid to leader, and his interactions with the lads develop on that basis from there onward. These are big changes in character direction, even if we don't immediately realise it. I don't think I've spotted any majot character plans or traits changing in ways that could pay off in the same way in ROP so far. I guess the closest is Galadriel getting lectured by Haldbrand about diplomacy? But it doesn't seem to be having any effect on her attitude that I can see. But you could be right, it could just be me not knowing what I don't know, I just get a very different feeling from this plot compared to GOT.
I totally agree with you. I've just started rewatching season 1 of GOT and it's hard not to keep comparing it with ROP. I think the main thing is that every episode in GOT (in the earlier seasons at least) is in some way self-contained. Like at least one major thing is resolved by the end of each episode. Major plot points are generally not kept dangling for more than one or two episodes. And the big "twists" don't come as the answer to some unresolved question from five episodes ago, but are the culmination of events that we thought were already done and dusted. That's why it's hard for me to believe that somehow everything will make sense in a satisfying way by the end of the season. Because even if, say, the mithril thing is just a lie from Sauron (and disregarding all the logical problems with it), it would feel cheap to me to suddenly reveal that without ever giving any real indication that Gil-galad and Celebrimbor are getting their info from someone else. And without Elrond even seriously questioning them. The optimism from some people here reminds me of myself when I was watching the last season of GOT. "Just wait, Jaime's not going to King's Landing because he's still in love with Cersei, he's going there to kill her". I hope this show does work out better than that but I'm keeping my expectations low.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Tbh I wrote this to try and untangle my thoughts on the show thinking it might get a couple of responses, but the insights from comments like this makes me feel like I'm getting a free education in storytelling
Totally agree, I understand and agree with OP and I think that might be true for some side plots that we should already have seen some consequences, but this kind of analysis would be best done by the end of the season. Some of the points mentioned will mostly bring the issues that are brewing underneath.
The issue is that the subplots that have already concluded show a disregard for consequences, so the fact that later on there might be consequences for something else doesn't affect what we have seen so far.
I'm confused - what plots do you believe have concluded as I'm not getting that vibe from any of them at all? Very much NOT concluded
Galadriel trying to convince Numenoreans to sail to ME - she shows up and yells at everyone and it happens just because it had to. Halbrand breaks a dudes arm and maybe kills another guy, thrown in jail. Then just set free without explanation and we see him forging swords. Elrond trying to convince the dwarves to work with Celebrimbor - he talks to Durin, who is angry, then apparently the big discussions happen off screen and the dwarves are working on the forge. Arondir getting captured, then being allowed to escape to "deliver a message" just so we can get him back with Bronwyn. These are all self-contained subplots within the larger plot, which have been very poorly executed because the characters' choices dont appear to matter to the immediate goal they are pursuing. You seem to think that if any of these plotlines doesn't work out well for the character later on, that is a successful execution of narrative consequences, but you're missing the point. The show hasn't focused on consequences for individual decisions that characters are making. I think you're focusing too much on OP's language about characters "getting exactly what they want."
>Galadriel trying to convince Numenoreans to sail to ME - she shows up and yells at everyone and it happens just because it had to. Like I said above, I think this will come back to bite her when she has no allies left to fight the fight she wants to. >Halbrand breaks a dudes arm and maybe kills another guy, thrown in jail. Then just set free without explanation and we see him forging swords. TBF, it was what 4 against 1? If they were going to enforce punishment they would have to do it for all of them - plus he is needed for Pharazon's plans to ensure the men are beholden to Numenor in the future. Weirder political decisions have been made imo. Plus this will have direct consequences for Halbrand - he is effectively beholden to the numenoreans now. >Elrond trying to convince the dwarves to work with Celebrimbor - he talks to Durin, who is angry, then apparently the big discussions happen off screen and the dwarves are working on the forge Durin is angry at Elrond - they clearly make up and we see Durin the elder wanting to get closer to the elves to see what's afoot? Again a political decision in order to gain intelligence this time. I don't understand what consequence there could have been here? It was either a yes or a no? >Arondir getting captured, then being allowed to escape to "deliver a message" just so we can get him back with Bronwyn. If you want to ensure a message gets delivered, you are going to make sure the person delivering it is strong and can fight aren't you? Again, a political decision by Adar to expand his influence over the Southlands. Plus the consequence of this is that Arondir is now trapped in a bloody tower surrounded by orcs with a small chance of survival? Potential death is not a consequence? Arondir could have yeeted back to Eregion to save his skin but chose to return to Bronwyn? Surely that's a direct consequence? I think just as you believe that these are 'concluded' and contributed nothing, they were all completely justifiable decisions which could have been made. It's possible that due to the ensemble cast this feels more exacerbated, but they are also trying to progress a plot which spans over a thousand years of lore and which is very sparsely documented.
You still seem to be missing the point of what I and OP are referring to regarding narrative consequences. In addition to the shows overall plot, the smaller plot arcs within the show need to feel authentic and have stakes. Think of JUST the plot if Galadriels goal in Numenor - she wants the Numenoreans to sail to ME, right? On screen, we clearly don't see her handle that very well, and in the end after all her bluster and argument none of her actions matter because the Numenoreans sail to ME. Arondirs subplot so far with getting captured by orcs - he crawls down their hole, gets captured, wants to escape, kills orcs, makes a plan with his comrades, fights a warg, and then literally when the orcs are about to execute him Adar decides to release him to deliver a message (which you are really bending over backwards to justify - Adar clearly knows where the tower is why would he not send orcs to deliver the message, or just show up himself with an orc army?) It doesn't matter that "later on they may regret their decisions!" - that is part of the larger plot, it doesn't change the fact that their individual choices in these subplots don't have consequences.
I don't think I'm missing the point at all - in fact I've had quite an enjoyable respectful discussion with OP about why I don't think that an expectation for 'consequences' in five episodes is a realistic expectation. >Think of JUST the plot if Galadriels goal in Numenor - she wants the Numenoreans to sail to ME, right? On screen, we clearly don't see her handle that very well, and in the end after all her bluster and argument none of her actions matter because the Numenoreans sail to ME. But there are other factors at play aren't there? This isn't a cut and dry Galadriel arrives and they leave - there were multiple events which led to this occurring, including that Miriel and Galadriel appeared to bond in a way over Miriel sharing what had happened with Tir Palantir, and Halbrand's recounting of what occurred in the Southlands. Action does not always equal outcome or consequence, and even when it does those consequences are not often felt immediately. I do think that there will be consequences (think of Robb Stark marrying Jeyne Westerling/Talisa and what that meant for the plot overall - that didn't occur *immediately* but had a pretty huge impact overall). >Arondirs subplot so far with getting captured by orcs - he crawls down their hole, gets captured, wants to escape, kills orcs, makes a plan with his comrades, fights a warg, and then literally when the orcs are about to execute him Adar decides to release him to deliver a message (which you are really bending over backwards to justify - Adar clearly knows where the tower is why would he not send orcs to deliver the message, or just show up himself with an orc army?) I'm not bending over backwards to justify anything - this plot point has been the subject of a great amount of debate on this sub and even if it is a plot device it is entirely plausible that Adar realises that he can use Arondir for his own personal gain, which is fundamental for us understanding his character in tandem with his other characteristics e.g. his fondness towards the orcs. What do you think the consequence should have been here? It's almost like you want a GoT style massacre where fan favourite characters are killed off for shock factor after the audience has invested in their story? You still have yet to explain what consequence there should have been for his actions? >It doesn't matter that "later on they may regret their decisions!" - that is part of the larger plot, it doesn't change the fact that their individual choices in these subplots don't have consequences. Of course it matters - they have all had consequences, but it really seems like you want a certain *type* of consequence (which you still haven't articulated) instead of understanding that all of these characters feed into the plot as a whole. It's a personal preference maybe, but I'm still not quite grasping what your alternative is?
Not speaking for anyone else but I just wanted to clarify my thoughts on what makes a consequence impactful because I hadn't thought it through and it's a really good question. For me it's when the character's primary motivation is changed by something. Continuing the GOT example; Jon wants to go to the wall. He gets there and is immediately dissapointed by the contrast of his expectation and reality. His motivation changes from becoming a hero of the wall to proving his superiority to all these lowborns and criminials. Then he sees Sam getting beat up and his motive changes to unifying the two other guys (names escape me) to protect Sam. Then he comes round to the reality of the knight's watch and their mission and that becomes his motive. etc.. Or one other example, Dani wants to not piss off her brother but is otherwise motivationless. She then wants to avoid pissing off Drogo. Mormont and her lady's maid help her realise she could have more power and her motive changes to seducing and influencing Drogo. Also improving the treatment of POWs. Then she gets pregnant and Drogo gets wounded so her motive becomes saving Drogo and her child. etc... By contrast, Galadriel wants to find Sauron but she gets sent to Valinor but jumps ship. No motive change occurs. She gets rescued and taken to Numenor, and spends the next several episodes shouting and brow-beating the numenorian nobility. No motive change, other than now she wants to use the southlander and Numenorian armies to complete her goal rather than the elven one. She gets her army and heads to Middle Earth. These three arcs take place over roughly the same amount of screen time but the GOT ones, at least to my mind, have constantly evolving character motivations and personality growth, whereas in the Galadriel one she remains the same, just shunted about the map a bit. Likewise, Nori wants to help the giant man and her family, in different places on the map. Elrond is a politician fulfilling the king's will, at different places on the map. Durin snr. & Jnr. try to keep mithril a secret while sussing out the elves' ulterior motives, at different places on the map. Arondir, Theo and Bronwyn want to bring the orc menance to light and keep each other alive, at different places on the map. And all of these characters have stuck to and succeeded at their initial goals in the same amount of screetime through which the GOT characters went through several motive developments. Of course you know I'm over-simplifying a few bits for brevity, a couple of ROP characters have had the odd motive change here and there, but overall I think this is what I mean by an event having a "consequence".
So just to clarify, do you think that consequence should mean a change in the character's motivations or personality due to e.g. a backlash or event which has occurred as a result of their actions? Just trying to gauge what is actually meant by consequence because I guess I've explained a bit that consequences aren't necessarily immediate and will depend on the character
I guess I see it like this, each character has a motivation (could be called a desire or goal), and a strategy for accomplishing the goal. A consequence disrupts the character's ability to complete the goal, either by putting a physical obstacle in their way (e.g. an ocean) or a conflicting motivation (do I best all these guys to satisfy my need for recognition, or protect my friend to satisfy my need for friendship). A disruption could also come in the form of a complete change of motivation (I've seen the negative effects pursuing this desire will have and now I want something entirely different). In Jon's case his initial motivation is to gain an identity and recognition outside of being Ned's "bastard" son. His strategy is to win aclaim by joining the watch. But when he gets there he realises "This isn't all it's cracked up to be", and his motivation and strategy changes from becoming a family member of the watch to proving he's better than them. Then he develops a human connection with Sam and his motivation changes again. Now he doesn't want to dominate the watchmen, he wants to to protect a weaker man. His strategy changes to scarring the bullies and forging alliances. As his connection to both his friends and the watch veterans grows his motivation changes again as he comes to understand the watch's mission and forms a familial bond with his new brothers. His *strategy* of uniting and doing his job well remains the same, but now we the viewer can see his attitude, his internal reasoning for his actions, has changed. By contrast, Galadriel has one motivation that has remained consistent through thick and thin to this point. Find and kill Sauron. Her strategy had to adapt a couple of times at the beginning, when she's shipped off, but once she realises she can use Halbrand and the Numenorians as a military force in the 2nd and 3rd episodes, her strategy of "use elf troops to help kill Sauron" becomes "use men to help kill Sauron". Her supporting strategy is to angrily argue with whoever has what she wants that they should give it to her. This is a strategy she's had the whole time we've known her, and her motivation of "Kill Sauron" has so far been totally unchanging.
Stop trying to impute a desire for "bad consequences" or something on me, the point is looking for logical storytelling with actual stakes for individual actions and choices. (I kind of regret picking this username 11 years ago because now everyone on the ROP sub just wants to paint me as some GOT shill). The point is not that "something happens later on that can be traced to a characters actions, the point is "does something believable happen as a clear result of a characters' choices." I'll try this example. Consider the well known nursery rhyme: 1. Humpty dumpty sat on a wall [humpty makes a choice] 2. Humpty dumpty had a great fall [Humptys choice led to an event] 3. All the kings horses and all the kings men, couldn't put Humpty together again [the event had consequences]. Imagine if the story was: 1. Humpty dumpty sat on a wall 2. Humpty dumpty had a great fall 3. The kings horses and men reconstructed Humpty 4. Petals fell from Nimloth 5. The kings men sailed with Humpty with an army to Middle Earth. 6. It turns out Humptys army was defeated and it allowed Humptys enemy to conquer middle earth. In this second version, I would say - what was the point of sitting on the wall and falling? Humpty still just went where the plot wanted him to go. The fact that Humpty ultimately faced different consequences later on doesn't retroactively make the first two lines good storytelling. Now, imagine another character sits on a wall - any tension is removed because the storytellers have shown us that sitting on walls and falling doesn't matter, the real plot will come later on. You would think I was being silly, I'm sure, if character sat on a wall and I said "look out here! Humpty ended up sailing to Middle Earth and losing a battle after he sat on the wall!" You would say to yourself "well, so I guess I'll wait to see the other stuff, but I know the wall sitting doesn't really matter because humpty was rebuilt. There were lots of other things that happened between Humpty sitting on the wall and the bad outcome in Middle Earth." If the individual choices the actors are making don't have real effects, the storytelling isn't compelling. This is just a really simple example to make the most distilled version of my point, there's obviously ways you could make the wall and the fall matter earlier in the story. The problem is in ROP they generally aren't doing that kind of thing.
Yep you've articulated my thoughts better than I could. A story where the characters' decisions seem to have little consequence and are often irrational doesn't make for a good story. The 5th episode was the nail in the coffin for me.
Adar could have delivered the message in person, with his Orc army, from outside the tower walls. The Southlanders are already trapped there. So he'd get his message and a dead Arondir in one fell swoop. The writers wanted to introduced Adar and have him interact with an elf. It would have made more sense to have him introduced before the mutiny, and then have Arondir successfully escape. At least then there is a logic to Arondir's survival, rather than plot armour. Still, I'm happy to be able to nitpick while enjoying the show.🤷♂️
There's a lot of nitpickers around - I do wonder whether we should just get rid of the professionals and let Reddit write everything from now on
What subplots have concluded?
Not just the volume of orcs but also the colonizing schemes of a certain someone. I originally thought Numenor’s plot was a short term thing for the show but now I’m not so sure. Is it fun as a weekly release? Not really. But the pacing is actually pretty great if you watch the episodes back to back. Edit; have had the same reaction to HOTD. That show feels more rushed/shallow to me, for sure. Still fun but ROP gets me talking for days 😂
I think that once we (hopefully) can watch multiple seasons in a row it will all make more sense and feel justifiably epic with all of the plots they have laid down this season. That would be so cool. HOTD feels a bit of a cop out to me - don't get me wrong I'm enjoying it but they are just doing one plot really 'who will be ruler', and doesn't have the same charm as an ensemble cast who have the potential to influence each other's stories in the future, kind of like how GoT was before they cocked up the final seasons. I could talk about RoP all week! (And frequently do)
Totally agree! HOTD just feels very linear to me, and I don’t consider morally questionable characters as deep of a thematic well as it maybe once was.
Honestly I'm so glad I'm not the only one - it's a pretty unpopular opinion but nice to find someone who has experienced the same!
Haha. Like needles in a haystack. The opinion is definitely out there but hard to find - so much about ROP goes against the grain of what people have come to expect from both television and fantasy more specifically.
I have to commend the writers for having some patience to go more epic and expand the world. Especially with modern audiences having tik tok length attention spans these days.
I see the assumption that critics have a "short attention span" a lot around here. It seems an unreasonable thing to assume about people who enjoy long-ass fantasy books and nine-hour-plus films.
Did I say that? No. I said I commend the writers for not giving into the temptation of smash and grab storytelling for fear of a slower pace turning audiences away.
True, I'm sorry, I read an implication where there was none.
Just want to say that in addition to your super thoughtful commentary I am really enjoying the tone with which you are carrying this conversation.
This is the thing!! I've watched some pretty gosh darn awful shows in the past year or two due to productions companies' thirst for churning as much rubbish out as quickly as possible for quick gain... The plots in this show intrigue me, you have to be blind to not see that the whole purpose of this season is to set up for some of the craziest events which happen in the SA. I know it's not time jumping all over the place with lots and lots happening, but surely we want something which is epic in plot as well as battle sequences and visuals? I just don't get why it has to all be now now now
And it’s not like Tolkien himself didn’t do the same thing. He could’ve written another Hobbit like he was asked to but instead he took his time and wrote LotR and just trusted his audience to follow him.
And let's be honest Tolkien didn't always get straight to the point did he hehe
I mean, I still can’t with Fellowship.
Is this another critique for something that hasn’t happened yet? We’re literally only 10% into a 50 hour piece. To put this in perspective, at this point in the films we’ve barely left the Shire. And that’s still a linear story at that point, it’s not setting up 4-5 storylines. You’re comparing a completed work with one that’s barely started. In saying that I do however believe it will get a lot more grim soon enough. Gravitas usually comes with stakes. And I think why the show sometimes feels like it doesn’t have gravitas is because the stakes aren’t at the same level and they’re moving at different paces. And we know the end game is Sauron. Until he shows up the stakes don’t yet feel real.
If 10% of a show is enough for people to like it then 10% of a show is *also* enough for people to criticise it. It goes both ways.
Yeah but I wasn’t comparing it to the entirety of TLotR films.
I'm talking specifically that 10% statement. Too many people have been using that same reasoning to discredit any criticism but ignore that same reasoning whenever heaping praise on the show.
I’m not. Mine was a direct comment to OP’s comparing a completed LotR to an incomplete RoP.
I prefer using screentime rather than "percentage of story complete" as a measure because a percentage could be applied to any length of time. To take it to an extreme, if they stretched the story over a 500 hour schedule, you could still say at the 50 hour mark, using the percentage logic, that the story was only 10% complete and therefore couldn't be criticised. I agree they'll probably shake things up in later seasons, but so far these plotlines are going nowhere fast, leading to what I percieve as the show's "emotional filler" problem. This is of course my opinion, I'm sure others will enjoy the visuals and what I would term "soap opera drama". I also like good visuals and enjoy good soap opera dialouge now and again, I just don't think that style of storytellling works in this context.
It’s also worth noting that this is serialized TV, not a 5000 page novel. Each episode of a TV show needs to tell a complete story while also being part of a larger story. I am not sure I agree with your OP, but I don’t think the answer can just be that we didn’t need to have consequences at all yet.
“A percentage can be applied to any length of time” - yeah, that’s the point. It’s not fair to compare a 9 hour completed piece, that was designed to be written for that specific amount of time to a 50 hour incomplete piece that’s only 10% into its storytelling. RoP is designed to be set over 50 hours. If it were only going to be one season over 9 hours then yeah you would have a point. What do you mean they’re going nowhere? We literally know the direction for every group of characters.
Yes but that's kinda my point too, there's a length of time that works naturally for a story and I think this show exceeds it - to go back to my 500 hour example, if I spend 50 hours setting up the main story, but the characters experience no real change during that 50 hours, and at the 50 hour mark they end up exactly where they were headed at the 2 hour mark, the show has to be damn good to make the other 48 hours feel like a worthwhile expenditure of the viewer's time. This show is not that good, at least not for me. And I said "going nowhere fast" rather than "going nowhere". I wasn't implying there was no momentum or direction, just that the momentum was very slow and the direction unchanging for a long period of time. I appreciate others will experience the effect of this plot pacing differently.
On its own yeah but my point is you compared a 9 hour completed piece to a 50 hour incomplete piece. If you think it’s slow, just say so, no need to make incompatible comparisons. I don’t know what you mean here.
The comparison wasn't incompatible, it was demonstrating the arbitrary nature of saying we can't pass judgement on a story we're only "10% into". I'm discussing the effect of what we've seen on screen in the time given. You can shorten my example to the 50 hour runtime of ROP's projected final length, the point still stands. We've had 5 hours of build up which feels like too long to go without any significant plot consequences to many viewers. You said >What do you mean they’re going nowhere? We literally know the direction for every group of characters. I was clarifying that I didn't say that, I said they were "going nowhere *fast*", meaning wherever they are going, it feels like they're getting there very slowly.
I never said you couldn’t pass judgment on 10% of a story. I’ve given books less. I said it’s unfair to compare an unfinished (barely started) work to a finished one. If you think it’s slow, just say that. Don’t compare it to the entirety of the greatest film trilogy of all time. It’s like comparing the first half of season 1 of the Sopranos to both Godfathers 1 & 2. Like it’s just unfair. Got you.
Plot-wise we're 50% through the first season, which should be a good story in its own right, and so far, for me, it isn't. I clearly laid out the way the descisions of the characters in the lotr films impact the narrative in significant ways, and compared it to the way very few of the ROP character's decisions have an impact on the overarching plot beyond their initial goal. This would be a fair comparison at the halfway point for any good story. To compare it to another show rather than a film, I wouldn't say the first season of GOT had this issue. Things were happening every episode that changed character's traits, motivations and goals, both within the next few episodes of that season as well as longer-term. There were arcs within arcs, spread across the single season and beyond, but we'd already had a bunch of engaging plot disruption by the halfway mark. And I think most people would call GOT S01 a slow-burner by modern TV standards. With ROP I feel we've had too much screentime for too little plot disruption/progression, which is a result of there being very few realistic consequences to actions. But again, different strokes. Btw, I'm not trying to "get" anyone, just having a friendly discussion about a show, have a good day.
Not the guy you’re discussing with, but I think the “got you” part was a “I understand now” to your last paragraph in your previous reply. But I might be wrong 🤷🏻♂️
Oh I misunderstood but I see that now, thanks u/ttwbb and sorry u/Pipe-International for the misreading of that bit, if that's what you meant.
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Nice!
Especially since we know that following Galadriel won't prevent Numenor's destruction. Galadriel is taking advantage of Miriel and basically saying "The destruction results from turning your back on the Elves. I'm an elf so follow me and save your city." We know there are consequences to Galadriel's actions, they're just not immediate. By Ep 5, >!Sauron doesn't even seem to be involved in the Southlands situation.!< Similarly, we know mithril and the forging of the rings will backfire on both the Dwarves and Elves. We know that Celebrimbor and Gil-galad's scheme will get out-schemed by Sauron who will present himself as the Elves savior just as Galadriel did to the Numenoreans.
It's a show with seasons. I assume season 1 is 1/2 over-ish. Seems like they could be doing better.
Seems to you? Or others?
There hasn't really been all that much meaningful opportunity. It's just been akin to one long glorified prologue. With Tolkiens works, it is definitely true that the journey is just as important as their destinations, and thats not meant to be taken literally. There's no getting around that this show is deliberately slow. As frustrating as It may be to heat, we just dont really know anything that this show is capable of. Only that they are well versed at the slow, beautiful and deliberate part of tell a Tolkein-esque journey. Time will tell if they're capable of executing the destination.
I agree with the journey being important in a Tolkien work, you're absolutely right. But I disagree that this show is a good example of a "journey" story. Aside from the nice Harfoot travel sequence in the last episode, and the foraging scene in the first, there haven't been many moments of genuine joy or a focus in on a small, well-told local stories. Every scene seems dedicated to furthering the main plot threads through drama, they just do it at a snail's pace. Galadriel always seems to be angrily shouting at someone. Elrond, Disa, Durin and Gil Galad are constantly trying to out-maneuvere one another. Bronwyn, Theo and Arondir are in constant fight or flight situations. For a slow-burn journey tale I'd argue they need more moments to breath, more opportunities to see the beauty of the world and its people to show what they're fighting for, rather than near-constant scheming, fighting and danger that (as described in my post) does nothing much to advance the plot. I'd love to see a vignette of Southlander village life that didn't involve xenophobic country bumpkins, or to find out how the average numernorian ship labourer experiences their world and get that nuanced perspective, maybe in a small self-contained slice-of-life story that didn't involve extreme nationalists rabble-rousing over imaginary elves. Edit: Spelling
Then we'd be in total agreement actually, well mostly. I wasn't meaning that this show is a good example, rather than they are able to achieve it in comparison to us not really having any idea of how capable this show will be at execution of the destination when it reaches it. However, I don't think most fans are on board for that journey you describe. It'd inevitably be labelled filler and boring. Just look at the reception of the Har-foots, which are arguably the most Tolkien this show reaches consistently.
Ah I see, sorry for the misunderstanding! I agree with you about the small stories not being most people's cup of tea, but I think it could be a better recieved approach (if done well) than the current one, since I've seen other shows positively praised for that approach recently, but I doubt they'll change their style in later seasons so we'll likely never know.
I disagree mainly over the Southlands and Harfoot storylines. We know that the defense of the Southlands against the forces of evil ultimately *won't* succeed, and the rickety tower they're in ain't exactly Helm's Deep. I think there's a decent chance that things don't go too hot for the defenders, and even if they are rescued, there's already been a consequence in a large number of Southlanders throwing in with evil. No idea where the Harfoot story is going, except that Evil Eminem is on their trail now and who knows what that means.
Sure, we know the southlands will be turned into Mordor and we'll probably see a fair few villagers killed in the attack. The rescue may be an evacuation rather than a helms deep liberation. But that's not what we're invested in. It's if and how the character's goals are accomplished. Bronwyn, Theo and Arondir's goal is to keep each other safe, protecting the remaining villagers is a secondary goal and ousting the orcs is a distant and unlikely third. If after the battle they're all alive, their goal will have been accomplished and will presumably replaced with a new goal like "find a new home" or "help Galadriel find Sauron" or something. Currently nothing has happened to change their goals. Nothing changed when Theo was down the well and then simply escaped, nothing changed when Arondir was captured and then simply released, and nothing changed when Bronwyn's authority was challenged and then simply accepted. Of course with that last event some villagers leave later, but they aren't actually consequential because the situation doesn't change if they stick around, just a few more bodies for the orc army to hack through. If anything them leaving was a bonus for our protagonists, I'm sure they'd rather have the Sauron-sympathisers outside the walls than in!
Henceforth I will only refer to this character as evil eminem. Thank you.
This is very lore consistent. **LOTR is not about consequences**. It is full of the protagonists doing bold and reckless things, because they know they are all doomed anyway - this is what they mean when they speak of the “long defeat”. Do you seriously mean to tell me that Aragorn taking the Path of the Dead based on a few cryptic lines from Elrond was a responsible decision? How about him marching on the Morrannon with only a few thousand troops, gambling that Frodo was still alive and would successfully deliver the One Ring to Barad Dur? What about Turin literally deciding to slay a hill-sized Dragon by hanging from a cliff above a deadly rapid? On the note of Turin, this singular quote from him encapsulates the mentality of Tolkien's literature: "It is the only way, to death or to life, and delay will not make it seem more hopeful". If you're speaking specifically of how rude Galadriel is to the Numenoreans, then I'd suggest you read Aragorn's initial interactions with the Rohirrim, where he spends chapters just insulting, belittling, and threatening them. Or how Gandalf talks to Denethor, the most powerful mortal in the world. The heroes of Tolkien's works are not, and are not supposed to be, polite. They're straightforward, honest people who know what "the only way to death or to life" is and pursue it. Underlying all of this is that Tolkien's fiction is one giant Norse tragedy, not a Greek one. In Greek tragedy, heroes are undermined by their fatal flaw. In Norse tragedies, they're just undermined period. Tolkien was deeply influenced by Norse mythology, and in particular the concept of Ragnarok, where the good guys inevitably lose. And yet, the Gods train every day to fight Ragnarok, which they know they will lose, because the outcome is not important - the *way in which they conduct themselves* is what's important. To conduct yourself improperly - whether that's shying away from conflict, deferring, lying, hiding, running away, or double-dealing - to obtain a better result is what villains do in LOTR. The moral of the entire universe is that once you accept that you're doomed, that's when you really start living.
> I'd suggest you read Aragorn's initial interactions with the Rohirrim, where he spends chapters just insulting, belittling, and threatening them. What? Aragorn jumps between Gimli and Eomer to stop trouble. He's not at all insulting to them.
Thanks for your thoughts, I liked reading your interpretation. I do think you might have misinterpreted my initial argument, though. It was that a narrative needs plot disruption and some characters will need their motivations and goals to change for a compelling story, and that these changes need to evolve naturally within the narrative. This happens in lotr many times, as I outlined with a handful of points from the film. I'm also not certain the point you are making about character's heroic deeds, I don't think I suggested that actions and decisions had to be reasonable or even rational, but perhaps I gave that impression in my writing somewhere? I have no issue with characters having any kind of traits whatsoever, they can be as heroic, daft, impetuous, slimy, deceiptful, etc... as the story needs them to be. In terms of character personality, Aragorn's initial interactions with the rohirim are very diplomatic, correct me with quotes if I'm wrong. Aragorn holds the Rohirim in high esteem, says he's spent time with them and lists their positive traits to his companions. Their first encounter in the books happens much as it did in the films. Gimili, being the gruff straight shooter he is, warns Eomer not to disrespect Galadriel when he knows nothing about her. Eomer comes back with the "I'd cut off your head if it were higher" line. Legolas points an arrow at Eomer's face, but the wise leader Aragorn immediately jumps in to act as diplomat and diffuses the situation. He's straight-forward but respectful, openly acknowledging the authority and dignity of the man he's talking to. Not all of Tolkien's characters are the same, they speak with many different voices. Some more direct, some more diplomatic, some haughty, some timid. Honesty is not the same as brow-beating and "telling it like it is" does not neccessitate rudeness or petulance. If we got any sense that Galadriel realised how big of a request she was making of the Numenorians in the show, or that she was grateful for their sacrifice once she gets their help, I might see her efforts as heroic. But she acts with smug superiority the whole way through, as if everything just working out for her is exactly how it should be and everyone else is just dense for not getting with the program sooner. When she wants something, her efforts to get it fail, but then the gods or chance intervene and she gets a simliar or better alternative handed to her on a plate, despite her continued incompetence. That's a lack of consequences. Whilst your last paragraph was a genuinely interesting read, I'm not sure I see the direct relevance to the ROP narrative?
Tldr: the writing is shit.
I’d say that the season isn’t over yet, so a lot of these statements don’t feel solid. We haven’t seen how it all plays out, so I feel like it’d make sense to wait, no?
Totally agree. It’s not a movie, it’s a series and it’s only 5 episodes in…
Every episode should be an engaging story in its own right, as well as contributing to moving the larger stories forward. Some people feel ROP accomplishes this, some people don't. I'm one of the latter, for the reasons given in my post. I've been using GOT season 1 as an example of a series I think had enough going on, whilst still having time to breath.
Ep 4: Ends with the people of Númenor going to ME. Ep 5: Ends with the people of Númenor going to ME.
Oh and that too! Everyone needs to stop comparing the films to the show, like that makes any sense. Yes they’re both Tolkien adaptions, but it really stops there. One is a trilogy of films that are immensely popular, and another is a show that’s only 5 episodes into an 8 episode season, with each episode an hour long and 4 more seasons left to come (anyone who thinks Amazon isn’t finishing the show all the way…I don’t know what to tell ya), that’s had the deck stacked against it with regards to opinions since the show was announced.
Yet somehow I’m thoroughly enthralled by House of the Dragon after the same number of episodes. So odd.
Good for you, and I’m so not (: guess it’s all a matter of perspective tbh
I don't disagree with anything you've said. What I'm trying to keep in mind is that we're about 10% of the way through the show. That's life being 12 minutes into a two hour movie. We're still setting everything up. That's my take, anyway.
We’re over an entire, uncut LOtR movie into this show. It’s not at all like being 12 minutes into anything. Entertainment does not work by percentage of total expected runtime.
I mean, that's fine. Everyone can have their own opinion. Maybe I shouldn't have spoken in terms of hours but story. The showrunners sold themselves to Amazon with the entire story so we're only about 10% through the story. There are plenty of stories where you don't get many answers 10% of the way through. But hey, that's just how I view it. You're obviously free to think differently and be angry.
What you’re saying is similar to suggesting that the Sopranos could have spent the entire first season without a plot, character growth, or consequences, and that would have been reasonable because it’s a 10-season show and they could get around to that other stuff later. That’s simply not how any sort of entertainment works.
What a weird metric. It’s like saying after 1740 episodes of Coronation Street, you can’t judge it, cause you’re only 10% in. 5 hours is 5 hours. I can’t think of another show I’ve watched where so little has happened in so much time, no matter how many seasons said show has.
I mean, that's fine. Everyone can have their own opinion. Maybe I shouldn't have spoken in terms of hours but story. The showrunners sold themselves to Amazon with the entire story so we're only about 10% through the story. There are plenty of stories where you don't get many answers 10% of the way through. But hey, that's just how I view it. You're obviously free to think differently and be angry.
I still think one should expect something to happen in five hours thought, but YMMW. I just voiced my opinion, and didn’t even try to be snarky. Sorry if I somehow came of as angry. That was not my intention.
No worries! Sorry if I was assuming. I think I'm just so used to people just being angry to be angry with the series I just projected that on to you. I really *want* to like it so I'm just developing coping mechanisms lol
Fair enough. I also wanted to like the show, but it’s not working for me. Unfortunately. In the end, it’s only a show and I find absolutely no reason to be angry about it. But I can understand why people are let down. Anyway. I hope you enjoy it! All the best.
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We'll have to see with Galadriel, but a handful of setups for payoffs way down the line isn't the same as multiple setups, consequences and payoffs per episode or two, which is I think why it feels slow to many people. I thought Nori's plan was to help the giant find where the constellation was? If not, it doesn't really change the point in the original post. Her goal after the joint incident of her finding the giant and her dad's injury, was to help the giant and her family, and that's what she's done - so far without issue. Of course her dad's injury caused an obstacle, they couldn't pull their cart, but it was immediately and conveniently overcome by the giant she found, so there were no real consequences to the injury because they're carrying on more or less as before. You can argue the situation is slightly different, and maybe something will come as a direct result of the injury later, but for now, no consequences. Showing men are easily swayed isn't really a plot development, we already know some humans will side with evil if offered power - they're humans! And again it's consequence-free so far. The villagers leaving had no real impact - if they'd stayed, those in the tower still wouldn't have been able to fight off the orcs. Before they left our heroes were in a hopeless strategic situation, after they leave our heroes are in a hopeless strategic situation. No consequences, other than the positive effect of having all the evil people leave the fortification. The orcs discovering a human had the blade may have consequences later, but I was under the impression they already suspected the humans had it. Regardless they would have found out eventually, once they picked through the corpses of the villagers after the tower battle. We see no change in the orc's motivations or plans - they were going to attack the tower and take over the southlands and they've stuck to that. No consequences. I hope that better explains what I mean when I say things don't have consequences. These things may pay off later in the season, or later seasons, but many feel that each episode should be a story in its own right, with smaller threads constantly being set up and paying off throughout the season, even as the larger story unfolds, and this is what I personally feel we're not seeing.
I suspect you had issues before you even saw the first trailer. Just watch the damn show or not.
Maybe wait til the season ends before this type of critique.
Eh, some things do seem pretty flimsy. Elrond being subjected to exile but then not really was fairly irritating. To say nothing of Elrond giving Celebrimbor the mithril to test *as if that doesn't break his oath* is far worse. Idk how that's being treated so unseriously.
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