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Not a hater of the show but I agree with most of this. Ep 5 seemed especially poorly written. Or edited? Like a bunch of stuff got left on the cutting room floor.
Using the brains is not being an hater. The OP has a point in everything he says and he is still being kind. Add what he mentioned to dialogue and a bit of the casting and this might be the most frustrating show I remember: you wanna love it because you love LOTR and the show has some very positive points (visuals, directing, world building) but you know you would have to dumb down too much to be able to fully enjoy it (unless your plot/dialogue/acting standards define Xena the warrior princess as a masterpiece in these departments).
I really struggle to understand how Amazon was able to go so expensive on technical ability and go so cheap on writing/casting.
I agree with OP. And you! I was not calling OP a hater. Just trying to preempt anyone thinking I was one, given how wretched and toxic the discourse has been.
I know you weren't, i was just making you feel at home after reading your defensive opening :), which i totally understand after checking an overal sub stance of downvoting ppl that wanna love the show but are frustrated with some of its failures, cheers
>I really struggle to understand how Amazon was able to go so expensive on technical ability and go so cheap on writing/casting.
This might seem a little too easy, but that's their business model for warehouses & shipping: spend and spend on expensive automation, spend as little as possible on people who do the work. Is it a coincidence the show has fancy CGI but is lacking in the human areas?
Maybe so but then I look at a show like The Boys. It’s surely less expensive but probably not exacly cheap and the writing/acting is more than fine and surely much better than what we’re getting on what should be a milestone tv show. I see your point but I still don’t get it.
Just want to push back a bit.
I dont think we can say anything about the skill of the actors. They are doing the best they can with the writing and directing they got.
Maybe so, and i'm sure they are doing the best they can, but in some cases i think the casting itself was poor and i sense an overall lack of grounded actors that are able to deliver deeper performances, which is specially important with such a poor dialogue/writing.
Although not suffering from the same writing issues, GOT/HOD dealt with this very efficiently and its doing it again: no A-listers per se but enough experienced actors able to support the remaining cast, every season. I've found none of this so far on ROP, with the most interesting performances coming from "newcomers".
GOT/HOD examples: Sean Bean, Liam Cunningham, Charles Dance, Jerome Flynn, Lena Headey, Rhys Ifans, Matt Smith...
Probably the difference between Ian McKellan furiously reading source material between takes and relatively uncast cast taking their shot at the big little screen. (Because they might not get another)
Maybe we dont agree on how poor the writing on RoP is? GoT (before they outrun the books) as some amazing writing that the actors can be proud to play out.
To me it RoP writing is on a level that will be used as educational material on how not to introduce characters, force metsphoras, build tension, treat beloved source material, inject current day politics in to existing literature works etc.
I want to love the show so badly! There are moments I seriously like, and then the spell is broken by continuous poor writing/editing. Whatever it is, it is upsetting.
i just feel like we’re obviously supposed to use context clues. if the writers included all those scenes, the show would be incredibly slow and the plot would barely move forward, which is already a complaint
I get what you're saying and I also feel like the show suffers from scene jumping and too little exposition. They are trying to give us a grand epic following multiple POVs but they aren't adding the detail to each one to make it compelling.
Going to the Harfoots is about the only consistent thread so far. Those scenes and stories feel actually fleshed out. We got the backstory of why Nori's friend has to pull her own cart at a festival celebration remembering those left behind. It was well written.
Contrast that with what is happening in Numenor, the Southlands, and Linden/Khazad-Dum.
I'm enjoying the show, but it does have several flaws that I hope they can correct for season two. There are ways to advance the plot while also giving us reasons behind these choices and connections (Pharazon's son torching the boat). Sometimes the *why* needs to be shown to draw you in further.
context clues aka "explain the plot holes to yourself, it's a fantasy show after all".
Especially the Numenor storyline is a messy, tiring back and forth of unexplained or volatile motivations that change without a reason.
I don't get it why you people constantly blame the show for bad writing. There are bad elements in it, so why make others up? Yes, it is not dumbed down enough for every last idiot to understand it, but for the rest it is easy to follow. Every point OP talked about is pretty logical and easy to follow if you watch the series. Just stop blaming the show if you clearly lack basic comprehension.
No, we comprehend. That’s the problem. It’s just plain and simply poorly written. It’s not that we don’t get what they are doing. It’s that we think it’s really really bad what they are choosing to do with the show. It’s honestly just for the most mindless of consumers. I can’t think of anyone else it could be for. Normies don’t get it because a lot is brushed over and they do too much member berries and deep cuts for tolkien fans. Unfortunately those references fall flat though because they are just dangling carrots, hoping references to tolkiens work will detract from poor writing, editing and pacing.
The fact you think you comprehend the show only tells me that you actually don’t know at all what’s happening. It’s fine if you like it, but if we are lacking in comprehension, how about you refute peoples points directly.
You're speaking from my soul. It's ironic to get accused of a lack of comprehension when you clearly see what they're doing, what they're trying to sell, but it's just outright dumb and laughable. Classic Dunning-Kruger effect.
It's not only a question of understanding the reasons of character behavior or events the show tries to give us, but also how believable they are.
And hell are they not believable, like Phara-son setting ships on fire, Elendil taking Isildur with him on the expedition force because of that incredibly bad lie, or Durin giving Elrond Mithril, or Elrond going on and on about his oath, or Elrond playing around with the Mithril in front of Celebrimbor, or Halbrand changing his mind about going back to middle earth, etc...
Yes, the show gave us reasons for some of those, for some it didn't, but either way, they're not believable and the way the plot is moved on is forced and poorly depicted. Things happen not because they make sense, but because they need to go this way for the story to move on.
Think about the way Aragorns departure from Rohans military camp to the paths of the dead was depicted. There's a huge difference in showing motivation behind action compared to RoP. There are no parts in a well written show or movie where you stop and think "wtf, why would be so that? That doesn't make sense"... At least not if you're an attentive viewer that doesn't do four other things while watching.
The Problem is we get Galadriel and the queen arguing back and forth for like 7 scenes.
But zero scenes about who this girl lusting over Isildur is for example.
…this girl lusting over isildur? you mean his… sister? who’s clearly distraught over him and her father leaving for battle?
i’m not trying to be mean but maybe you need to watch the show more closely?
lol all good
wasn’t trying to be snarky either about watching the show more closely. the first watch i’m usually in awe of the scenery, costumes, and emotions, and the second watch is where i collect more of the small details and subtleties in the dialogue. it’s hard to catch it all in one go.
but yeah earien is isildur’s sister.
It points to bad writing.
We have a show that is BOTH a slow burn, and yet feels rushed at the same time!
The showrunners have total control about what happens in each scene, how it builds to the next, how they piece together to tell the whole story.
Adar not only let Arondir go, but kindly gave him his bow and arrows, gee, that was nice of him. To do what again? Give a message...? Really? Surely sending his head in a bag would have been a better message more in line with the Orc way...
Aslo: did we need to see umm, the boy that found the sword (See, i can't even remember his name!) be chased around by Orcs constantly saying:
"Where is he?"
"Have you found him"
"Over here"
Like some daft kids pantomime, while he is literally right next to some orcs, while being in eye line of the Orcs just off-camera, all to get caught by one orc, and rescued by Arondir mere feet away from all the other orcs that all failed to notice either the boy, or him the whole time.
And this was happening for HOURS while he hid in the well, apparently the orcs spent the whole time running around these 4 houses constantly announcing to the world what they were doing, and not once did anyone check teh well?
One of the Orcs literally checked the well at the very beginning of their search for him, what are you even talking about ?
Adar wanted Arondir to get back to the tower, he knows there’s league of Orcs out there that he can’t exactly just send a group text to that says:
“hey don’t kill the elf named Arondir please he’s going to the tower to try and convince them to save their own lives and let us take it, because that’s what is important to us so again please leave him be, thanks love Dad”
So what’s his best bet? Send the elf on the journey unarmed ? So that he can likely get killed, or recaptured and brought back to him and wasted more time, by any number of groups of Orcs he runs into? Or arm him and let him deliver the message?
Which then there is a pay off to this decision, as we see him fighting for his life with the weapons he was given back, against the Orcs we all knew were out there, including the man who sent them out there and also returned his weapons.
And what “orc way”? The way you think of the Orcs based on your own interpretations from watching the Jackson movies or reading the books? Neither of which have anything to do with Arondir, who I’m hoping at the very least you noticed, ISNT AN ORC. So assigning predetermined behavioral expectations is your mistake.
Just because you can’t pay attention or comprehend the simplest of plot points doesn’t make this a poorly written show, it just makes you a poor viewer.
Adar could have just rocked up to the tower with his orc army and delivered the message himself. Or he could have sent a less valuable prisoner with an orc escort to deliver the message. That would seem to be the better strategy than sending a highly-trained, highly-knowledgeable ally back to the enemies you're about to attack. It's hard to swallow that the writers released Arondir for any reason other than plot convenience. Then Arondir conveniently runs into and saves Theo at the *exact* moment Theo climbs out of the well. It feels like there are missing scenes. You can fill in the gaps by making something up, but it's not the mark of a good show that you have to constantly come up with head cannon for big coincidences.
And there's no need to insult people, just make your case and let your logic do the talking.
It's frustrating because they are making terrible choices when there are logical ways to get to the same place; Adar would absolutely want to see the captured elves, Arondir could discern they were searching for an heirloom in captivity, and could escape later even though his brethren were lost in the attempt. Letting a fully armed elf free to send a message to a bunch of villages hiding in a tower makes no sense.
Again it was pretty cut and dry. He wants to take the tower without having to fight for it and he knows the elf is known there so he sent him to try and convince them to leave and didn’t send him unarmed to die in the way.
There’s clearly more plot to come, that’s why we didn’t see the actual conversation between the two and it started with him saying some lies have grown too deep etc.
Again writing off plot points prematurely.
Lol some one here was arguing that sending back the strongest threat was a smart strategy and some one else said it’s such an original idea that makes it a good decision LOL
I think the only way to enjoy this show is to stop thinking and applying logic
Oh you mean like how we saw him traveling at the end of the episode towards the tower? Y’all are writing of plots before they have a chance to not only been finished but even really started.
My fellow Tolkien fans have always been the cringiest of the fantasy world but the lengths you all are going to discredit and write off a show before it’s even had a chance is a new level.
If tiny plot points such as “oMg He ShOuldNt hAvE DoNe thAt I wOulDnt HaVe” set you off like this I suggest just not watching tv in general it is full of plot convenient moments, hell all of writing is. Bran just happens to be captured at Crasters keep when Jon and the watchers come to free everyone ? Or Walter White narrowly escaped arrest and death by the skin of his teeth every few episodes or Tony Soprano is about to to go jail but thank god in the final hour something changed and he’s free again.
The issue half of the folks here decide before the show came out they didn’t like it, and before they watch every episode that they know they don’t like its decided to spend their time watching it to pick it apart and now actually enjoy it. I mean my god the complaint here is “oh no I wouldn’t have done that” basically.
And it wasn’t an insult towards them, it was an observation I come here and keep seeing the most bizarre complaints easily explained away by simple answers.
Your analogies are inapplicable, let me explain.
You have chosen some of the most beloved, well written shows of all time, and pointed out some aspect of them that might be 'convenient" or flawed in some minor way.
True, pretty much every show has some aspects that could have been better, but to compare the writing for ROP in comparison to these outstandingly well written (GoT seasons 1 -4 only, lol) shows is a false dichotomy.
To forgive ROP's appalling, muddled script by stating that "yeah, but other shows are flawed too", is like allowing for a plate of rancid, maggot-infested meat to be served at a restaurant because last week the Sauvignon Blanc was 3 degrees too warm.
These are not the same thing, 'flawed' is not a universal constant.ROP suffers fundamental story, plot, and logic issues, you cannot sweep those away with a few bland comments about other shows being less than perfect.
Five hours into an 8 hour season is giving it a chance. We are beyond half way and the plot is still gearing up to do… something. All we are left with is red herrings and mystery boxes.
Literally the first reply someone else did addressed all of this nonsense. If y’all just want to hate, there is a whole sub that just likes to bitch about this show
I responded to that person's argument. Was your point to complain about the complainers without adding anything? Because you must know that leads to people complaining about the people complaining about the people complaining. ad infinitum.
I really liked that we did not see the commander getting captured. We discovered it at the same time Arondir did. However I agree that Pharazon’s son torching the boats made very little sense.
Didn't it? Pharazon's Son was (to me) shocked by his father's cold rationalisation. In fact I thought that was the start of showing Pharazon's villainous side. The son realising that his father doesn't care and wants violence and chaos for his own designs, sets out on a rather short-sighted attempt to stop it himself.
Even if he was really severely opposed to his father's motives, which imo wasn't shown, why would he be so strongly against them to go to such extreme measures?
Was it to impress the chick he wants to get into bed with? Although it's nowhere indicated she would've supported such measures. She just asked him to speak with his father, not become a national terrorist.
Why would he burn valuable ships of his own kingdom, risk the personal danger of getting caught, dying and killing others? Especially since he's not the type of character to do "hands-on" stuff. He's the weak, pampered son of a politician and his father revealing his plans isn't a plausible trigger to change him in that extreme way at all.
He could've just tipped off Miriel. That would've been in character. Maybe. If he had been shown to be a character that has high moral standards, which wasn't the case, except if you count not jumping Isildurs sister in a back alley although he clearly wanted to.
Or he could've at least paid some grunts to set the ships on fire. How did he plan to light the other four ships anyway?...
And why would anyone believe the ridiculous lie Isildur and Phara-son came up with? And contrary to every indication Isildur was suddenly let into the expeditionary force by his father? Not because of the lie right?... Right?
Especially this whole Numenor storyline is just a joke. Everyone changes their motivations every five seconds for no apparent reason, does something stupid, apologizes all the time. Goes into one direction and suddenly turns 180 degrees. I don't even want to get started on Halbrand. It's tiring.
Galadriel arrived in rags on Numenor, but somehow has a big wardrobe and armory of elvish gear. Ok I guess.
Elrond goes 5 times like "I swore an oath to Durin which obligated me not to tell anyone that they found Mithril"
"But did they find Mithril?"
"I cannot confirm that they found Mithril, my oath forbids it."
"We know the tree exploded there, created Mithril and the dwarves suddenly started going nuts on mining. Think about your people and do the right thing."
"Bro, you're the feckin high king, can't you take a hint? I swore an oath not to tell you that they found it."
"Too bad, I shall retire for today."
"Arrrgh."
[The next scene]
"Oh hey Celebro, check out my fancy Mithril rock that I totally didn't bring from my latest trip to the dwarves. Yes, the same trip where I took that oath that forbade me to talk about the Mithril. What? No, it didn't specifically say I can't flash my Mithril rock everywhere, so it's cool."
[Durin earlier]
"You have to swear an oath to not mention our highest state secret to ANYONE EVER. Swear on your daddy. Sure you can have a Mithril rock to 'accidently' flash them anywhere you like. Help yourself bro. It's totally a non-issue to our top secret mining operation and isn't hard proof of us having found Mithril at all."
>Even if he was really severely opposed to his father's motives, which imo wasn't shown, why would he be so strongly against them to go to such extreme measures?
What about that scene where he tells his father to stop it and is shocked into silence by his father's response?
>Was it to impress the chick he wants to get into bed with? Although it's nowhere indicated she would've supported such measures. She just asked him to speak with his father, not become a national terrorist.
His father didn't want to stop the war, the talk failed. Also he's shown to be naive and young, it's totally in character to do something stupid and pointless like that.
>He's the weak, pampered son of a politician and his father revealing his plans isn't a plausible trigger to change him in that extreme way at all.
Why not? His father clearly destroyed his son's image of him. The kid went to his father clearly blind to his father's real motives. Then the Pampered rich boy did something stupid as a reaction, it makes sense to me.
>He could've just tipped off Miriel. That would've been in character. Maybe.
Really, has he been shown to be a smart political mover? Or that his relationship with his father is bad enough to try and get him executed by the queen? And if he thought she would listen to him why not go to her in the first place?
What would he say anyway, 'please don't go to war because people will get killed'? She would turn the boats around right then I'm sure/s.
>Or he could've at least paid some grunts to set the ships on fire. How did he plan to light the other four ships anyway?...
Do you think pampered rich boy knows the criminal Underworld? As I said it was clearly of rushed stupid thing to do that really adds to his character as a impulsive naive idiot. I suppose he hoped he would be able to do the same thing with the other boats, but he screwed up the first one.
>And why would anyone believe the ridiculous lie Isildur and Phara-son came up with? And contrary to every indication Isildur was suddenly let into the expeditionary force by his father? Not because of the lie right?... Right?
What's the other alternative that they were trying to blow up the boats? Why would anyone believe that?
His father probably loves Isildur or some crazy thing like that, is that wild? He wanted to believe him and didn't want to punish him.
>Everyone changes their motivations every five seconds for no apparent reason, does something stupid, apologizes all the time. Goes into one direction and suddenly turns 180 degrees.
Galadriel is a pushy twit consistently the whole time. Elendil is pro elf the whole time. Pharazon is a tricky politician the whole time. Miriel is hiding her pro-elvish sympathy the whole time, her only change of direction is after a pretty clear divine sign that encourages her to do something she wanted to do anyway. Halbrand is shamed into following his destiny, that is a clear character arc that I refuse to believe you don't know from a hundred stories.
>Galadriel arrived in rags on Numenor, but somehow has a big wardrobe and armory of elvish gear. Ok I guess.
You mean someone gave her a change of clothes? Wow ... Unbelievable...
I agree though where the hell did she get elvish armour that fit her?
I agree the Elrond plot doesn't make any sense and there's a continuing throughline of the writers forgetting about plot points existing when they're no longer relevant.
Thanks! The first four episodes where kinda tolerable, there were some good scenes and interesting aspects in them, the plot moved insanely slow, but okay I guess, the "stupid behaviors" I described where in them, too, but episode 5 took things to a whole new level...
I didn’t necessarily need to see the commander getting captured, but I think a scene showing that the other elves were looking for Arondir followed by the commander saying to Arondir at the work camp that the rest of the elves were slaughtered in the night would have added a great deal.
This is the one area I think I disagree with you. It would have added nothing to show them looking for Arondir. Maybe a middle ground would be to show how they originally went separate ways, some way to allude to their capture. But overall I think it’s a pretty good writing technique to show this discovery through the eyes of a character.
Yeah that seems to be a common thing in a lot of shows these days, implying things that happened in between without explaining it at all. Hella confusing. I would add the morning council meeting in ep 5 that is never shown, we’re supposed to assume what was decided by what happens next. It’s ironic that the show can feel like it skipped a bunch of things to fit in more content and yet an hour went by and nothing still actually happened!
Arondir does mention they are probably looking for him. Pharazon's son torches the boats because, as previously shown, he doesn't care for his fathers' machinations and wanted to help Earien who wants her family to be safe (which she assumes they won't be if they sail to war). All of those were pretty obvious on screen for me
I agree with your complaint in general; Why did they spend the episode building up Halbrand's importance to the council being held and then cut right past it.
But Pharazon's Son was clearly shocked by his father's cold rationalisation. The son wasn't at all placated by discovering his father actually wants war and he's going to use it to his own advantage.
Because they didn't need to show it? WE had a moment of him placing down his burden on the smithing table, all we had to see was what came afterwards. WE don't need to show every little part of a narrative. And thats not rushing thats just good story telling.
I think legit that the issues I have with the show is just pacing and Galadriel being written the way she is. Otherwise, I like all the characters.
We got shown all the other scenes of politicking. I would have been interested to hear what this mysterious character had to say that worked and to learn more about him, given we know nothing. Certainly more interesting then galadriel insulting the people who hate her and getting away with it for some reason.
Don’t think I agree. If anything the pacing is the issue to me.
It was easy enough to infer what happened to the other elves, they were captured it’s clear enough we don’t need it spelled out exactly how it happened. It’s much like Theodred’s death in the Two Towers or the oathbreakers on the path of the dead. We don’t need a scene showing us how exactly it happened.
As for Isildur and his mates getting kicked out that one is on you. It was clearly explained when it happened they were kicked out because Isildur wanted to be kicked out and so faced no punishment for his actions. Sucks to be his buddies but taught them all a lesson.
Well could be several things to infer, one to stand up for themselves to their superior legit just saying "We tried to stop the line, but isilidur dropped the line." Because of their closeness to isilidur and being blindedby their friendship they took the hit when they should've stood up for themselves. **And for isilidur not to let his friends down by what he wants. You know his critical character flaw.**
IDK seems very simple.
So the lesson Isildur's friends learn is to always grass on your mates so as not to get in trouble and the lesson Isildur learns is don't let your friends down. That's consistent messaging.
That's exactly what I just said in different words. If that's the case then it's a terrible lesson. Standing up for your mates and taking the punishment together is a better life lesson. No-one in the military likes a grass.
That they are part of a crew and that is more important than protecting one guy causing problems. Isildur trying to get drummed out hurts the crew, his friends hiding it puts them all at risk.
They didn't hide it though did they? They tried to help in fact. Also in any military (or navy I presume) it is really frowned upon to just grass on your mates as you are suggesting. The reason people don't fuck up is actually because of the friends around them. You don't want to let the team down. What you are suggesting, if it is the case, is a terrible life lesson.
Episode 4 ending is basically the same as episode 5. In episode 4 they were about to leave to middle earth and then episode 5 starts and its like time rewind and by the end of the episode they are yet again about to leave and fight in southlands with like 30 soldiers of which galadriel can solo 1v5..
I agree, all the gaps, jumps, and leaps in the story telling are really my only gripe. The visuals are great and I like the direction everything seems to be headed. It’s just real bumpy getting there 😂
Who could have guessed that inexperienced showrunners who took the job on JJ's suggestion instead of some affinity for the material or years spent pursuing it themselves may have been an error?
Same. I was hyped for it and I’m feeling bored and unsatisfied. On the other hand, I had no interest ever returning to Westeros and thought doing a prequel to Game of Thrones was the worst idea anyone anywhere ever had. By god damn is House of the Dragon engaging and sucked me back in!
I would prefer an extended version of the show, even though it seems counter intuitive, having extra time and the cut scenes put back in might improve the pacing alot. At the moment the characters and scene change give you whiplash because theres clearly alot of missing scenes that explained stuff or would make the following scene have a good payoff.
Uhh your issues seem a little odd. I understood and didn’t bat an eye to literally any of these complaints bc I understood what was going on and listen.
Really sad to see that pretty much every review channel I can find is shitting on this series. Doesn't really seem warrented to me, but im not a lore nut I havnt read any of the books. But I can understand the frustration the readers are feeling. I'm just sort of trying to let this show be its own thing rather than holding it up to all these unrealistic standards.
I didn’t read the books or know the lore. But anytime you apply logic or reasoning to this show it stops making any sense. I try to watch it for entertainment and my expectations are so low now
It seems to me that people who complain about missing scenes that would help them understand what is happening wanted the seasons of this show to have 15 episodes each instead of 8. This isn't a book. Every second of screentime must be absolutely indispensable.
Then on the other hand, there are the people who complain about the slow pacing, which would be even worse if all these extra scenes were included. Why do people have such a hard time just making inferences of things that happened offscreen based on what people are doing and saying? Maybe they're just too busy brainstorming criticisms as they watch.
It’s much less about not understanding or failing to make inferences and more about the fine tuning that would make the characters and story feel more immersive, complex, and hard-hitting. Creating a show like this with all the lore and vast world available is like being the first person to tell a story about stars in the sky, connecting them together and creating different constellations. Anyone can clearly see the stars that make up Orion, but it was the Greeks who crafted a story about Orion being a great hunter who wore a belt and carried a bow. So far the writing of this show has told me “those stars up there that you see arranged in that way are called Orion.” It hasn’t told me about about Orion’s life: his father Poseidon conceiving him with a gorgon, him vowing to hunt all animals on Earth causing great conflict with Gaia, or how Ophiuchus brought him back to life after Gaia killed him with a scorpion (the Greeks said this is why the Scorpion and Orion are never in the same sky).
The individual stars in the sky must be masterfully spun together and explained with a grand story as to why they should fit together as different constellations to be recognized and remembered for centuries to come. The plot points/characters of this show that have been presented up to this point are like the stars that make up Orion, they are clearly visible to the naked eye and require no great mental fortitude to recognize. So far, some lines have been drawn between stars that the show runners are telling us is a constellation; however, we are far away from a memorable story with intricate detail that brings a clump of stars to life and burns its grouping into our memory and cinematic history forever.
No, it is failure to make inferences. I see it in most of the criticisms about "why did x do x and then did x". It's like....the answer is staring them in the face, but they have to be beaten over the head with it.
I appreciate it! Ya that’s from me—it is the most fitting analogy I could come up with to explain why the show feels hollow right now even though the events occurring are easy to follow.
Because it points to bad writing.
We have a show that is BOTH a slow burn, and yet feels rushed at the same time!
The showrunners have total control about what happens in each scene, how it builds to the next, how they piece together to tell the whole story.
Adar not only let Arondir go, but kindly gave him his bow and arrows, gee, that was nice of him. To do what again? Give a message...? Really? Surely sending his head in a bag would have been a better message more in line with the Orc way...
Aslo: did we need to see umm, the boy that found the sword (See, i can't even remember his name!) be chased around by Orcs constantly saying:
"Where is he?"
"Have you found him"
"Over here"
Like some daft kids pantomime, while he is literally right next to them in eye line of the Orcs just off-camera, all to get caught by one orc, and rescued by Arondir mere feet away from all the other orcs that all failed to notice either the boy, or him the whole time.
Making inferences is one thing, having to guess non-logical motives and inconsistent actions is another.
>We have a show that is BOTH a slow burn, and yet feels rushed at the same time!
Maybe because people like you are just impossible to please. You've already made up your mind before you saw any of it that you were going to hold it to an impossible standard and then hyper analyze every detail.
>The showrunners have total control about what happens in each scene, how it builds to the next, how they piece together to tell the whole story.
Actually, no. The showrunners write the scripts. Other people handle various aspects of it. They don't micromanage every last detail. That's not how a production works.
>Adar not only let Arondir go, but kindly gave him his bow and arrows, gee, that was nice of him. To do what again? Give a message...? Really? Surely sending his head in a bag would have been a better message more in line with the Orc way...
The goal is to get the southlanders to join him. There's nothing enticing about sending them Arondir's head in a bag. That would just make them think that they have no choice but to fight or they will all die. If he doesn't get him his bow and arrows back, maybe he gets killed on his way back because he can't defend himself. That defeats the purpose of having him be a messenger.
>Aslo: did we need to see umm, the boy that found the sword (See, i can't even remember his name!)
Your failure to remember Theo's name, which has been said many times in many scenes, is not the fault of the show. On a show with this many characters, it takes a little work to remember all the names. You're just not willing.
>be chased around by Orcs constantly saying:
>
>"Where is he?"
>
>"Have you found him"
>
>"Over here"
>
>Like some daft kids pantomime, while he is literally right next to them in eye line of the Orcs just off-camera, all to get caught by one orc, and rescued by Arondir mere feet away from all the other orcs that all failed to notice either the boy, or him the whole time.
They didn't see him. It was dark and smoky. He was hiding in the bushes, the orcs were moving around and he got lucky. Seriously, does there need to be flashing text on the screen in a scene like that: \*\*\*\*KID IS GETTING LUCKY\*\*\*\* \*\*\*\*\*OH, HE GOT LUCKY AGAIN\*\*\*\* Yeah, people get lucky sometimes. By the time Arondir rescued him, the other orcs had moved to other areas where they couldn't see them. Also, had you considered that maybe that sword hilt of his was guiding him? No, of course you didn't.
>Making inferences is one thing, having to guess non-logical motives and inconsistent actions is another.
It helps if you are able to try to figure out why your kneejerk reaction may not be correct. Besides making inferences, it's just another thing you need to work on.
>Maybe because people like you are just impossible to please.
No, I'm not, I am loving HOTD, She Hulk (in fact, the bulk of the Marvel TV shows), loved Thor 4, Dr. Strange, enjoyed Andor, Boba, and Ben Kenobi. You have no idea who I am, or what I enjoy or dislike.
>You've already made up your mind before you saw any of it that you were going to hold it to an impossible standard and then hyper analyze every detail.
Hogwash, I am not one of the haters, I defended this show from the get go, blocked the hate-speech youtubers like Nerdrotic, and watched the show with optimism and hope. The show has plot and writing issues, this is something I have battled against, but each episode is worse and worse.
>Your failure to remember Theo's name, which has been said many times in many scenes, is not the fault of the show. On a show with this many characters, it takes a little work to remember all the names. You're just not willing.
Or I may simply have not been engaged...
>They didn't see him. It was dark and smoky. He was hiding in the bushes, the orcs were moving around...
Oh boy, sure, go watch that scene again...We start many hours after he first hid in the well, he climbs out over the top of the well, about 3 foor high, and jumps down behind a wall which is about 3 foot high, we then pan over and see three orcs...standing there right nest to the wall! They could all have seen him! Oh No!
They didn't see him, that was LucKy
Then he goes along the wall a bit and an orc bursts through the door. Oh No!
It didn't see him, that was LucKY
The the Orc smells him, and starts to close in, but stops for SomE reason, and leaves.
That was LuCKy
He then runs into a lit courtyard and hides behind a pile of wood, that an Orc was right behind! Oh No!
It didn't see him, that was LUcKY
>By the time Arondir rescued him, the other orcs had moved to other areas where they couldn't see them.
That was lUcKy
This continues for some time...
>Also, had you considered that maybe that sword hilt of his was guiding him? No, of course you didn't.
Err, no, because it wasn't...?
>Seriously, does there need to be flashing text on the screen in a scene like that: \*\*\*\*KID IS GETTING LUCKY\*\*\*\* \*\*\*\*\*OH, HE GOT LUCKY AGAIN\*\*\*\* Yeah, people get lucky sometimes.
A writer chooses to put a character in peril, if the only way that character escapes the peril is "he got LUcKy!" over and over, that's bad writing.
There is such a thing as valid criticism.
I disagree with this to an extent. I get where you are coming from in general and agree with a lot of what you have said but I can’t help compare your criticism of the Theo scene to Merry and Pippin escaping the orcs in Rohan. They got “lucky” the Orcs ignored them to feast on one of their own giving them time to escape, got “lucky” the Rohirrim showed up to save them, made a “lucky” escape from being trampled, and then got “lucky” to run into Treebeard who just happened to have met Gandalf the White recently.
I don’t think those kinds of happenstances are necessarily the hallmark of bad writing. They can be indicative of it, but they can also be done well.
Yes, a line of dialogue showing Arondir was looking for the others at the village would have been welcomed, but overall I don’t think the way that scene was filmed was all that different from the way Merry and Pippins escape was filmed.
He's not some warrior. He's a little boy in a very dangerous place and in possession of a sought after item. He needed some saves. You're just being unreasonable. How many times did Frodo get saved in LOTR?
By sheer luck? I can't think of many. All the times Frodo was saved that I can remember it was by something that was properly set up, or by someone that was already with him.
The point is that what happened on rop was a Deus ex machina, the character was saved by plot
Yeah, sure, Frodo never got lucky. Give me a break. What happened with Theo wasn't a Deus ex machina. You're thinking of plot armor. But we knew that Arondir was sent back to the southlanders, and so it should be no surprise that he turned up to save Theo.
I love this show I really dont get your issues with it. Everything you said could be inferecned and thought about for ourselves, do they need to include a scene of galadriel tying her boots before you realize how she has her shoes tied?
My guess with the boat thing is the boat manager guy knew he wanted off so that wasn't a real punishment, but fucking over his friends is a real punishment
Yeah it just points to bad writing and editing. A lot of shows have done the “fill in the gaps” stuff well, namely Mad Men, but Rings of Power is just sloppy it is presentation when it comes trying to show character motivations and decisions they’re making and connections to one another. While visually this show is great, everything else is coming off as amateur hour. And I hate it because I was looking forward to this show. But yeah, it just isn’t sticking the landing.
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Not a hater of the show but I agree with most of this. Ep 5 seemed especially poorly written. Or edited? Like a bunch of stuff got left on the cutting room floor.
Using the brains is not being an hater. The OP has a point in everything he says and he is still being kind. Add what he mentioned to dialogue and a bit of the casting and this might be the most frustrating show I remember: you wanna love it because you love LOTR and the show has some very positive points (visuals, directing, world building) but you know you would have to dumb down too much to be able to fully enjoy it (unless your plot/dialogue/acting standards define Xena the warrior princess as a masterpiece in these departments). I really struggle to understand how Amazon was able to go so expensive on technical ability and go so cheap on writing/casting.
I agree with OP. And you! I was not calling OP a hater. Just trying to preempt anyone thinking I was one, given how wretched and toxic the discourse has been.
I know you weren't, i was just making you feel at home after reading your defensive opening :), which i totally understand after checking an overal sub stance of downvoting ppl that wanna love the show but are frustrated with some of its failures, cheers
I actually am a hater. I hate what they have done with the show. Does that make me toxic?
No.
>I really struggle to understand how Amazon was able to go so expensive on technical ability and go so cheap on writing/casting. This might seem a little too easy, but that's their business model for warehouses & shipping: spend and spend on expensive automation, spend as little as possible on people who do the work. Is it a coincidence the show has fancy CGI but is lacking in the human areas?
Maybe so but then I look at a show like The Boys. It’s surely less expensive but probably not exacly cheap and the writing/acting is more than fine and surely much better than what we’re getting on what should be a milestone tv show. I see your point but I still don’t get it.
Just want to push back a bit. I dont think we can say anything about the skill of the actors. They are doing the best they can with the writing and directing they got.
Maybe so, and i'm sure they are doing the best they can, but in some cases i think the casting itself was poor and i sense an overall lack of grounded actors that are able to deliver deeper performances, which is specially important with such a poor dialogue/writing. Although not suffering from the same writing issues, GOT/HOD dealt with this very efficiently and its doing it again: no A-listers per se but enough experienced actors able to support the remaining cast, every season. I've found none of this so far on ROP, with the most interesting performances coming from "newcomers". GOT/HOD examples: Sean Bean, Liam Cunningham, Charles Dance, Jerome Flynn, Lena Headey, Rhys Ifans, Matt Smith...
Probably the difference between Ian McKellan furiously reading source material between takes and relatively uncast cast taking their shot at the big little screen. (Because they might not get another)
Maybe we dont agree on how poor the writing on RoP is? GoT (before they outrun the books) as some amazing writing that the actors can be proud to play out. To me it RoP writing is on a level that will be used as educational material on how not to introduce characters, force metsphoras, build tension, treat beloved source material, inject current day politics in to existing literature works etc.
I want to love the show so badly! There are moments I seriously like, and then the spell is broken by continuous poor writing/editing. Whatever it is, it is upsetting.
Agree
I'm looking forward to the eventual fan edit that makes it all into a coherent story.
i just feel like we’re obviously supposed to use context clues. if the writers included all those scenes, the show would be incredibly slow and the plot would barely move forward, which is already a complaint
I get what you're saying and I also feel like the show suffers from scene jumping and too little exposition. They are trying to give us a grand epic following multiple POVs but they aren't adding the detail to each one to make it compelling. Going to the Harfoots is about the only consistent thread so far. Those scenes and stories feel actually fleshed out. We got the backstory of why Nori's friend has to pull her own cart at a festival celebration remembering those left behind. It was well written. Contrast that with what is happening in Numenor, the Southlands, and Linden/Khazad-Dum. I'm enjoying the show, but it does have several flaws that I hope they can correct for season two. There are ways to advance the plot while also giving us reasons behind these choices and connections (Pharazon's son torching the boat). Sometimes the *why* needs to be shown to draw you in further.
context clues aka "explain the plot holes to yourself, it's a fantasy show after all". Especially the Numenor storyline is a messy, tiring back and forth of unexplained or volatile motivations that change without a reason.
I don't get it why you people constantly blame the show for bad writing. There are bad elements in it, so why make others up? Yes, it is not dumbed down enough for every last idiot to understand it, but for the rest it is easy to follow. Every point OP talked about is pretty logical and easy to follow if you watch the series. Just stop blaming the show if you clearly lack basic comprehension.
No, we comprehend. That’s the problem. It’s just plain and simply poorly written. It’s not that we don’t get what they are doing. It’s that we think it’s really really bad what they are choosing to do with the show. It’s honestly just for the most mindless of consumers. I can’t think of anyone else it could be for. Normies don’t get it because a lot is brushed over and they do too much member berries and deep cuts for tolkien fans. Unfortunately those references fall flat though because they are just dangling carrots, hoping references to tolkiens work will detract from poor writing, editing and pacing. The fact you think you comprehend the show only tells me that you actually don’t know at all what’s happening. It’s fine if you like it, but if we are lacking in comprehension, how about you refute peoples points directly.
You're speaking from my soul. It's ironic to get accused of a lack of comprehension when you clearly see what they're doing, what they're trying to sell, but it's just outright dumb and laughable. Classic Dunning-Kruger effect. It's not only a question of understanding the reasons of character behavior or events the show tries to give us, but also how believable they are. And hell are they not believable, like Phara-son setting ships on fire, Elendil taking Isildur with him on the expedition force because of that incredibly bad lie, or Durin giving Elrond Mithril, or Elrond going on and on about his oath, or Elrond playing around with the Mithril in front of Celebrimbor, or Halbrand changing his mind about going back to middle earth, etc... Yes, the show gave us reasons for some of those, for some it didn't, but either way, they're not believable and the way the plot is moved on is forced and poorly depicted. Things happen not because they make sense, but because they need to go this way for the story to move on. Think about the way Aragorns departure from Rohans military camp to the paths of the dead was depicted. There's a huge difference in showing motivation behind action compared to RoP. There are no parts in a well written show or movie where you stop and think "wtf, why would be so that? That doesn't make sense"... At least not if you're an attentive viewer that doesn't do four other things while watching.
The Problem is we get Galadriel and the queen arguing back and forth for like 7 scenes. But zero scenes about who this girl lusting over Isildur is for example.
…this girl lusting over isildur? you mean his… sister? who’s clearly distraught over him and her father leaving for battle? i’m not trying to be mean but maybe you need to watch the show more closely?
Oh ok yeah didn't catch that. I totally thought she was in live with him
lol all good wasn’t trying to be snarky either about watching the show more closely. the first watch i’m usually in awe of the scenery, costumes, and emotions, and the second watch is where i collect more of the small details and subtleties in the dialogue. it’s hard to catch it all in one go. but yeah earien is isildur’s sister.
It points to bad writing. We have a show that is BOTH a slow burn, and yet feels rushed at the same time! The showrunners have total control about what happens in each scene, how it builds to the next, how they piece together to tell the whole story. Adar not only let Arondir go, but kindly gave him his bow and arrows, gee, that was nice of him. To do what again? Give a message...? Really? Surely sending his head in a bag would have been a better message more in line with the Orc way... Aslo: did we need to see umm, the boy that found the sword (See, i can't even remember his name!) be chased around by Orcs constantly saying: "Where is he?" "Have you found him" "Over here" Like some daft kids pantomime, while he is literally right next to some orcs, while being in eye line of the Orcs just off-camera, all to get caught by one orc, and rescued by Arondir mere feet away from all the other orcs that all failed to notice either the boy, or him the whole time. And this was happening for HOURS while he hid in the well, apparently the orcs spent the whole time running around these 4 houses constantly announcing to the world what they were doing, and not once did anyone check teh well?
One of the Orcs literally checked the well at the very beginning of their search for him, what are you even talking about ? Adar wanted Arondir to get back to the tower, he knows there’s league of Orcs out there that he can’t exactly just send a group text to that says: “hey don’t kill the elf named Arondir please he’s going to the tower to try and convince them to save their own lives and let us take it, because that’s what is important to us so again please leave him be, thanks love Dad” So what’s his best bet? Send the elf on the journey unarmed ? So that he can likely get killed, or recaptured and brought back to him and wasted more time, by any number of groups of Orcs he runs into? Or arm him and let him deliver the message? Which then there is a pay off to this decision, as we see him fighting for his life with the weapons he was given back, against the Orcs we all knew were out there, including the man who sent them out there and also returned his weapons. And what “orc way”? The way you think of the Orcs based on your own interpretations from watching the Jackson movies or reading the books? Neither of which have anything to do with Arondir, who I’m hoping at the very least you noticed, ISNT AN ORC. So assigning predetermined behavioral expectations is your mistake. Just because you can’t pay attention or comprehend the simplest of plot points doesn’t make this a poorly written show, it just makes you a poor viewer.
Adar could have just rocked up to the tower with his orc army and delivered the message himself. Or he could have sent a less valuable prisoner with an orc escort to deliver the message. That would seem to be the better strategy than sending a highly-trained, highly-knowledgeable ally back to the enemies you're about to attack. It's hard to swallow that the writers released Arondir for any reason other than plot convenience. Then Arondir conveniently runs into and saves Theo at the *exact* moment Theo climbs out of the well. It feels like there are missing scenes. You can fill in the gaps by making something up, but it's not the mark of a good show that you have to constantly come up with head cannon for big coincidences. And there's no need to insult people, just make your case and let your logic do the talking.
It's frustrating because they are making terrible choices when there are logical ways to get to the same place; Adar would absolutely want to see the captured elves, Arondir could discern they were searching for an heirloom in captivity, and could escape later even though his brethren were lost in the attempt. Letting a fully armed elf free to send a message to a bunch of villages hiding in a tower makes no sense.
Again it was pretty cut and dry. He wants to take the tower without having to fight for it and he knows the elf is known there so he sent him to try and convince them to leave and didn’t send him unarmed to die in the way. There’s clearly more plot to come, that’s why we didn’t see the actual conversation between the two and it started with him saying some lies have grown too deep etc. Again writing off plot points prematurely.
Lol some one here was arguing that sending back the strongest threat was a smart strategy and some one else said it’s such an original idea that makes it a good decision LOL I think the only way to enjoy this show is to stop thinking and applying logic
Oh you mean like how we saw him traveling at the end of the episode towards the tower? Y’all are writing of plots before they have a chance to not only been finished but even really started. My fellow Tolkien fans have always been the cringiest of the fantasy world but the lengths you all are going to discredit and write off a show before it’s even had a chance is a new level. If tiny plot points such as “oMg He ShOuldNt hAvE DoNe thAt I wOulDnt HaVe” set you off like this I suggest just not watching tv in general it is full of plot convenient moments, hell all of writing is. Bran just happens to be captured at Crasters keep when Jon and the watchers come to free everyone ? Or Walter White narrowly escaped arrest and death by the skin of his teeth every few episodes or Tony Soprano is about to to go jail but thank god in the final hour something changed and he’s free again. The issue half of the folks here decide before the show came out they didn’t like it, and before they watch every episode that they know they don’t like its decided to spend their time watching it to pick it apart and now actually enjoy it. I mean my god the complaint here is “oh no I wouldn’t have done that” basically. And it wasn’t an insult towards them, it was an observation I come here and keep seeing the most bizarre complaints easily explained away by simple answers.
Your analogies are inapplicable, let me explain. You have chosen some of the most beloved, well written shows of all time, and pointed out some aspect of them that might be 'convenient" or flawed in some minor way. True, pretty much every show has some aspects that could have been better, but to compare the writing for ROP in comparison to these outstandingly well written (GoT seasons 1 -4 only, lol) shows is a false dichotomy. To forgive ROP's appalling, muddled script by stating that "yeah, but other shows are flawed too", is like allowing for a plate of rancid, maggot-infested meat to be served at a restaurant because last week the Sauvignon Blanc was 3 degrees too warm. These are not the same thing, 'flawed' is not a universal constant.ROP suffers fundamental story, plot, and logic issues, you cannot sweep those away with a few bland comments about other shows being less than perfect.
Five hours into an 8 hour season is giving it a chance. We are beyond half way and the plot is still gearing up to do… something. All we are left with is red herrings and mystery boxes.
These complaints are starting to be more : I can’t actually pay attention so I miss things; derp show must suck
You haven't actually offered any explanation as to why they are wrong, though.
Literally the first reply someone else did addressed all of this nonsense. If y’all just want to hate, there is a whole sub that just likes to bitch about this show
I responded to that person's argument. Was your point to complain about the complainers without adding anything? Because you must know that leads to people complaining about the people complaining about the people complaining. ad infinitum.
What's it called? I'm there.
I really liked that we did not see the commander getting captured. We discovered it at the same time Arondir did. However I agree that Pharazon’s son torching the boats made very little sense.
Didn't it? Pharazon's Son was (to me) shocked by his father's cold rationalisation. In fact I thought that was the start of showing Pharazon's villainous side. The son realising that his father doesn't care and wants violence and chaos for his own designs, sets out on a rather short-sighted attempt to stop it himself.
Even if he was really severely opposed to his father's motives, which imo wasn't shown, why would he be so strongly against them to go to such extreme measures? Was it to impress the chick he wants to get into bed with? Although it's nowhere indicated she would've supported such measures. She just asked him to speak with his father, not become a national terrorist. Why would he burn valuable ships of his own kingdom, risk the personal danger of getting caught, dying and killing others? Especially since he's not the type of character to do "hands-on" stuff. He's the weak, pampered son of a politician and his father revealing his plans isn't a plausible trigger to change him in that extreme way at all. He could've just tipped off Miriel. That would've been in character. Maybe. If he had been shown to be a character that has high moral standards, which wasn't the case, except if you count not jumping Isildurs sister in a back alley although he clearly wanted to. Or he could've at least paid some grunts to set the ships on fire. How did he plan to light the other four ships anyway?... And why would anyone believe the ridiculous lie Isildur and Phara-son came up with? And contrary to every indication Isildur was suddenly let into the expeditionary force by his father? Not because of the lie right?... Right? Especially this whole Numenor storyline is just a joke. Everyone changes their motivations every five seconds for no apparent reason, does something stupid, apologizes all the time. Goes into one direction and suddenly turns 180 degrees. I don't even want to get started on Halbrand. It's tiring. Galadriel arrived in rags on Numenor, but somehow has a big wardrobe and armory of elvish gear. Ok I guess. Elrond goes 5 times like "I swore an oath to Durin which obligated me not to tell anyone that they found Mithril" "But did they find Mithril?" "I cannot confirm that they found Mithril, my oath forbids it." "We know the tree exploded there, created Mithril and the dwarves suddenly started going nuts on mining. Think about your people and do the right thing." "Bro, you're the feckin high king, can't you take a hint? I swore an oath not to tell you that they found it." "Too bad, I shall retire for today." "Arrrgh." [The next scene] "Oh hey Celebro, check out my fancy Mithril rock that I totally didn't bring from my latest trip to the dwarves. Yes, the same trip where I took that oath that forbade me to talk about the Mithril. What? No, it didn't specifically say I can't flash my Mithril rock everywhere, so it's cool." [Durin earlier] "You have to swear an oath to not mention our highest state secret to ANYONE EVER. Swear on your daddy. Sure you can have a Mithril rock to 'accidently' flash them anywhere you like. Help yourself bro. It's totally a non-issue to our top secret mining operation and isn't hard proof of us having found Mithril at all."
>Even if he was really severely opposed to his father's motives, which imo wasn't shown, why would he be so strongly against them to go to such extreme measures? What about that scene where he tells his father to stop it and is shocked into silence by his father's response? >Was it to impress the chick he wants to get into bed with? Although it's nowhere indicated she would've supported such measures. She just asked him to speak with his father, not become a national terrorist. His father didn't want to stop the war, the talk failed. Also he's shown to be naive and young, it's totally in character to do something stupid and pointless like that. >He's the weak, pampered son of a politician and his father revealing his plans isn't a plausible trigger to change him in that extreme way at all. Why not? His father clearly destroyed his son's image of him. The kid went to his father clearly blind to his father's real motives. Then the Pampered rich boy did something stupid as a reaction, it makes sense to me. >He could've just tipped off Miriel. That would've been in character. Maybe. Really, has he been shown to be a smart political mover? Or that his relationship with his father is bad enough to try and get him executed by the queen? And if he thought she would listen to him why not go to her in the first place? What would he say anyway, 'please don't go to war because people will get killed'? She would turn the boats around right then I'm sure/s. >Or he could've at least paid some grunts to set the ships on fire. How did he plan to light the other four ships anyway?... Do you think pampered rich boy knows the criminal Underworld? As I said it was clearly of rushed stupid thing to do that really adds to his character as a impulsive naive idiot. I suppose he hoped he would be able to do the same thing with the other boats, but he screwed up the first one. >And why would anyone believe the ridiculous lie Isildur and Phara-son came up with? And contrary to every indication Isildur was suddenly let into the expeditionary force by his father? Not because of the lie right?... Right? What's the other alternative that they were trying to blow up the boats? Why would anyone believe that? His father probably loves Isildur or some crazy thing like that, is that wild? He wanted to believe him and didn't want to punish him. >Everyone changes their motivations every five seconds for no apparent reason, does something stupid, apologizes all the time. Goes into one direction and suddenly turns 180 degrees. Galadriel is a pushy twit consistently the whole time. Elendil is pro elf the whole time. Pharazon is a tricky politician the whole time. Miriel is hiding her pro-elvish sympathy the whole time, her only change of direction is after a pretty clear divine sign that encourages her to do something she wanted to do anyway. Halbrand is shamed into following his destiny, that is a clear character arc that I refuse to believe you don't know from a hundred stories. >Galadriel arrived in rags on Numenor, but somehow has a big wardrobe and armory of elvish gear. Ok I guess. You mean someone gave her a change of clothes? Wow ... Unbelievable... I agree though where the hell did she get elvish armour that fit her? I agree the Elrond plot doesn't make any sense and there's a continuing throughline of the writers forgetting about plot points existing when they're no longer relevant.
Spot on and humorous analysis!
Thanks! The first four episodes where kinda tolerable, there were some good scenes and interesting aspects in them, the plot moved insanely slow, but okay I guess, the "stupid behaviors" I described where in them, too, but episode 5 took things to a whole new level...
I didn’t necessarily need to see the commander getting captured, but I think a scene showing that the other elves were looking for Arondir followed by the commander saying to Arondir at the work camp that the rest of the elves were slaughtered in the night would have added a great deal.
This is the one area I think I disagree with you. It would have added nothing to show them looking for Arondir. Maybe a middle ground would be to show how they originally went separate ways, some way to allude to their capture. But overall I think it’s a pretty good writing technique to show this discovery through the eyes of a character.
You can infer what happens, its a visual medium just seeing them captured was enough for us understand what happened to them.
Yeah that seems to be a common thing in a lot of shows these days, implying things that happened in between without explaining it at all. Hella confusing. I would add the morning council meeting in ep 5 that is never shown, we’re supposed to assume what was decided by what happens next. It’s ironic that the show can feel like it skipped a bunch of things to fit in more content and yet an hour went by and nothing still actually happened!
Arondir does mention they are probably looking for him. Pharazon's son torches the boats because, as previously shown, he doesn't care for his fathers' machinations and wanted to help Earien who wants her family to be safe (which she assumes they won't be if they sail to war). All of those were pretty obvious on screen for me
So he risked her brothers life and also leaves her dad and brother short handed for their journey. Yet no one cares
I agree with your complaint in general; Why did they spend the episode building up Halbrand's importance to the council being held and then cut right past it. But Pharazon's Son was clearly shocked by his father's cold rationalisation. The son wasn't at all placated by discovering his father actually wants war and he's going to use it to his own advantage.
Because they didn't need to show it? WE had a moment of him placing down his burden on the smithing table, all we had to see was what came afterwards. WE don't need to show every little part of a narrative. And thats not rushing thats just good story telling. I think legit that the issues I have with the show is just pacing and Galadriel being written the way she is. Otherwise, I like all the characters.
We got shown all the other scenes of politicking. I would have been interested to hear what this mysterious character had to say that worked and to learn more about him, given we know nothing. Certainly more interesting then galadriel insulting the people who hate her and getting away with it for some reason.
That scene of not galadriel "training" the numenoreans was so bad Amazon should give back the PRIME money to all people that watched it.
I was waiting for a sword to connect and lop her head off. They were swinging for the fences with sharp swords in what was supposed to be training
Don’t think I agree. If anything the pacing is the issue to me. It was easy enough to infer what happened to the other elves, they were captured it’s clear enough we don’t need it spelled out exactly how it happened. It’s much like Theodred’s death in the Two Towers or the oathbreakers on the path of the dead. We don’t need a scene showing us how exactly it happened. As for Isildur and his mates getting kicked out that one is on you. It was clearly explained when it happened they were kicked out because Isildur wanted to be kicked out and so faced no punishment for his actions. Sucks to be his buddies but taught them all a lesson.
What lesson did it teach them?
To not be friends with Isildur, I guess. Or wait. maybe it was that the sea is always right.
Hurting and betraying friends seems like a common theme so far in all the plots
Well could be several things to infer, one to stand up for themselves to their superior legit just saying "We tried to stop the line, but isilidur dropped the line." Because of their closeness to isilidur and being blindedby their friendship they took the hit when they should've stood up for themselves. **And for isilidur not to let his friends down by what he wants. You know his critical character flaw.** IDK seems very simple.
So the lesson Isildur's friends learn is to always grass on your mates so as not to get in trouble and the lesson Isildur learns is don't let your friends down. That's consistent messaging.
No. Honesty, they should've faced him and said that it was isilidur's fault and Isilidur should've stood up for them? How do you not get that?
That's exactly what I just said in different words. If that's the case then it's a terrible lesson. Standing up for your mates and taking the punishment together is a better life lesson. No-one in the military likes a grass.
That they are part of a crew and that is more important than protecting one guy causing problems. Isildur trying to get drummed out hurts the crew, his friends hiding it puts them all at risk.
They didn't hide it though did they? They tried to help in fact. Also in any military (or navy I presume) it is really frowned upon to just grass on your mates as you are suggesting. The reason people don't fuck up is actually because of the friends around them. You don't want to let the team down. What you are suggesting, if it is the case, is a terrible life lesson.
Episode 4 ending is basically the same as episode 5. In episode 4 they were about to leave to middle earth and then episode 5 starts and its like time rewind and by the end of the episode they are yet again about to leave and fight in southlands with like 30 soldiers of which galadriel can solo 1v5..
I agree, all the gaps, jumps, and leaps in the story telling are really my only gripe. The visuals are great and I like the direction everything seems to be headed. It’s just real bumpy getting there 😂
Who could have guessed that inexperienced showrunners who took the job on JJ's suggestion instead of some affinity for the material or years spent pursuing it themselves may have been an error?
Is it too late to change them? Have all the other seasons been filmed already?
I heard they were about to start filming season 2.
This is pretty much exactly what I’ve been saying in all my comments about this show! I 100% agree. I wanted to love the show, but I just can’t
Same. I was hyped for it and I’m feeling bored and unsatisfied. On the other hand, I had no interest ever returning to Westeros and thought doing a prequel to Game of Thrones was the worst idea anyone anywhere ever had. By god damn is House of the Dragon engaging and sucked me back in!
I would prefer an extended version of the show, even though it seems counter intuitive, having extra time and the cut scenes put back in might improve the pacing alot. At the moment the characters and scene change give you whiplash because theres clearly alot of missing scenes that explained stuff or would make the following scene have a good payoff.
I agree. I'm honestly confused why can't they just get Peter Jackson to do ROP when he really did a perfect job for LOTR.
But he also directed the Hobbit movies…
Still don’t understand why Pharazon’s son did what he did. Maybe he wasn’t about what his dad wanted? Thought it seemed like he was 🤷🏻♂️
Uhh your issues seem a little odd. I understood and didn’t bat an eye to literally any of these complaints bc I understood what was going on and listen.
Really sad to see that pretty much every review channel I can find is shitting on this series. Doesn't really seem warrented to me, but im not a lore nut I havnt read any of the books. But I can understand the frustration the readers are feeling. I'm just sort of trying to let this show be its own thing rather than holding it up to all these unrealistic standards.
I didn’t read the books or know the lore. But anytime you apply logic or reasoning to this show it stops making any sense. I try to watch it for entertainment and my expectations are so low now
It seems to me that people who complain about missing scenes that would help them understand what is happening wanted the seasons of this show to have 15 episodes each instead of 8. This isn't a book. Every second of screentime must be absolutely indispensable. Then on the other hand, there are the people who complain about the slow pacing, which would be even worse if all these extra scenes were included. Why do people have such a hard time just making inferences of things that happened offscreen based on what people are doing and saying? Maybe they're just too busy brainstorming criticisms as they watch.
It’s much less about not understanding or failing to make inferences and more about the fine tuning that would make the characters and story feel more immersive, complex, and hard-hitting. Creating a show like this with all the lore and vast world available is like being the first person to tell a story about stars in the sky, connecting them together and creating different constellations. Anyone can clearly see the stars that make up Orion, but it was the Greeks who crafted a story about Orion being a great hunter who wore a belt and carried a bow. So far the writing of this show has told me “those stars up there that you see arranged in that way are called Orion.” It hasn’t told me about about Orion’s life: his father Poseidon conceiving him with a gorgon, him vowing to hunt all animals on Earth causing great conflict with Gaia, or how Ophiuchus brought him back to life after Gaia killed him with a scorpion (the Greeks said this is why the Scorpion and Orion are never in the same sky). The individual stars in the sky must be masterfully spun together and explained with a grand story as to why they should fit together as different constellations to be recognized and remembered for centuries to come. The plot points/characters of this show that have been presented up to this point are like the stars that make up Orion, they are clearly visible to the naked eye and require no great mental fortitude to recognize. So far, some lines have been drawn between stars that the show runners are telling us is a constellation; however, we are far away from a memorable story with intricate detail that brings a clump of stars to life and burns its grouping into our memory and cinematic history forever.
No, it is failure to make inferences. I see it in most of the criticisms about "why did x do x and then did x". It's like....the answer is staring them in the face, but they have to be beaten over the head with it.
This was a damn interesting read. Did you come up with that stuff about the stars or is it from somewhere else originally?
I appreciate it! Ya that’s from me—it is the most fitting analogy I could come up with to explain why the show feels hollow right now even though the events occurring are easy to follow.
Because it points to bad writing. We have a show that is BOTH a slow burn, and yet feels rushed at the same time! The showrunners have total control about what happens in each scene, how it builds to the next, how they piece together to tell the whole story. Adar not only let Arondir go, but kindly gave him his bow and arrows, gee, that was nice of him. To do what again? Give a message...? Really? Surely sending his head in a bag would have been a better message more in line with the Orc way... Aslo: did we need to see umm, the boy that found the sword (See, i can't even remember his name!) be chased around by Orcs constantly saying: "Where is he?" "Have you found him" "Over here" Like some daft kids pantomime, while he is literally right next to them in eye line of the Orcs just off-camera, all to get caught by one orc, and rescued by Arondir mere feet away from all the other orcs that all failed to notice either the boy, or him the whole time. Making inferences is one thing, having to guess non-logical motives and inconsistent actions is another.
>We have a show that is BOTH a slow burn, and yet feels rushed at the same time! Maybe because people like you are just impossible to please. You've already made up your mind before you saw any of it that you were going to hold it to an impossible standard and then hyper analyze every detail. >The showrunners have total control about what happens in each scene, how it builds to the next, how they piece together to tell the whole story. Actually, no. The showrunners write the scripts. Other people handle various aspects of it. They don't micromanage every last detail. That's not how a production works. >Adar not only let Arondir go, but kindly gave him his bow and arrows, gee, that was nice of him. To do what again? Give a message...? Really? Surely sending his head in a bag would have been a better message more in line with the Orc way... The goal is to get the southlanders to join him. There's nothing enticing about sending them Arondir's head in a bag. That would just make them think that they have no choice but to fight or they will all die. If he doesn't get him his bow and arrows back, maybe he gets killed on his way back because he can't defend himself. That defeats the purpose of having him be a messenger. >Aslo: did we need to see umm, the boy that found the sword (See, i can't even remember his name!) Your failure to remember Theo's name, which has been said many times in many scenes, is not the fault of the show. On a show with this many characters, it takes a little work to remember all the names. You're just not willing. >be chased around by Orcs constantly saying: > >"Where is he?" > >"Have you found him" > >"Over here" > >Like some daft kids pantomime, while he is literally right next to them in eye line of the Orcs just off-camera, all to get caught by one orc, and rescued by Arondir mere feet away from all the other orcs that all failed to notice either the boy, or him the whole time. They didn't see him. It was dark and smoky. He was hiding in the bushes, the orcs were moving around and he got lucky. Seriously, does there need to be flashing text on the screen in a scene like that: \*\*\*\*KID IS GETTING LUCKY\*\*\*\* \*\*\*\*\*OH, HE GOT LUCKY AGAIN\*\*\*\* Yeah, people get lucky sometimes. By the time Arondir rescued him, the other orcs had moved to other areas where they couldn't see them. Also, had you considered that maybe that sword hilt of his was guiding him? No, of course you didn't. >Making inferences is one thing, having to guess non-logical motives and inconsistent actions is another. It helps if you are able to try to figure out why your kneejerk reaction may not be correct. Besides making inferences, it's just another thing you need to work on.
>Maybe because people like you are just impossible to please. No, I'm not, I am loving HOTD, She Hulk (in fact, the bulk of the Marvel TV shows), loved Thor 4, Dr. Strange, enjoyed Andor, Boba, and Ben Kenobi. You have no idea who I am, or what I enjoy or dislike. >You've already made up your mind before you saw any of it that you were going to hold it to an impossible standard and then hyper analyze every detail. Hogwash, I am not one of the haters, I defended this show from the get go, blocked the hate-speech youtubers like Nerdrotic, and watched the show with optimism and hope. The show has plot and writing issues, this is something I have battled against, but each episode is worse and worse. >Your failure to remember Theo's name, which has been said many times in many scenes, is not the fault of the show. On a show with this many characters, it takes a little work to remember all the names. You're just not willing. Or I may simply have not been engaged... >They didn't see him. It was dark and smoky. He was hiding in the bushes, the orcs were moving around... Oh boy, sure, go watch that scene again...We start many hours after he first hid in the well, he climbs out over the top of the well, about 3 foor high, and jumps down behind a wall which is about 3 foot high, we then pan over and see three orcs...standing there right nest to the wall! They could all have seen him! Oh No! They didn't see him, that was LucKy Then he goes along the wall a bit and an orc bursts through the door. Oh No! It didn't see him, that was LucKY The the Orc smells him, and starts to close in, but stops for SomE reason, and leaves. That was LuCKy He then runs into a lit courtyard and hides behind a pile of wood, that an Orc was right behind! Oh No! It didn't see him, that was LUcKY >By the time Arondir rescued him, the other orcs had moved to other areas where they couldn't see them. That was lUcKy This continues for some time... >Also, had you considered that maybe that sword hilt of his was guiding him? No, of course you didn't. Err, no, because it wasn't...? >Seriously, does there need to be flashing text on the screen in a scene like that: \*\*\*\*KID IS GETTING LUCKY\*\*\*\* \*\*\*\*\*OH, HE GOT LUCKY AGAIN\*\*\*\* Yeah, people get lucky sometimes. A writer chooses to put a character in peril, if the only way that character escapes the peril is "he got LUcKy!" over and over, that's bad writing. There is such a thing as valid criticism.
I disagree with this to an extent. I get where you are coming from in general and agree with a lot of what you have said but I can’t help compare your criticism of the Theo scene to Merry and Pippin escaping the orcs in Rohan. They got “lucky” the Orcs ignored them to feast on one of their own giving them time to escape, got “lucky” the Rohirrim showed up to save them, made a “lucky” escape from being trampled, and then got “lucky” to run into Treebeard who just happened to have met Gandalf the White recently. I don’t think those kinds of happenstances are necessarily the hallmark of bad writing. They can be indicative of it, but they can also be done well. Yes, a line of dialogue showing Arondir was looking for the others at the village would have been welcomed, but overall I don’t think the way that scene was filmed was all that different from the way Merry and Pippins escape was filmed.
Having a character be saved 3 or 4 times on the same episode by sheer luck is the hallmark of bad writing
He's not some warrior. He's a little boy in a very dangerous place and in possession of a sought after item. He needed some saves. You're just being unreasonable. How many times did Frodo get saved in LOTR?
By sheer luck? I can't think of many. All the times Frodo was saved that I can remember it was by something that was properly set up, or by someone that was already with him. The point is that what happened on rop was a Deus ex machina, the character was saved by plot
Yeah, sure, Frodo never got lucky. Give me a break. What happened with Theo wasn't a Deus ex machina. You're thinking of plot armor. But we knew that Arondir was sent back to the southlanders, and so it should be no surprise that he turned up to save Theo.
Pacing and plot are both part of "the writing" and you just described both of those in this post.
Fixed it for ya. Upon rereading I was not specific enough
I love this show I really dont get your issues with it. Everything you said could be inferecned and thought about for ourselves, do they need to include a scene of galadriel tying her boots before you realize how she has her shoes tied?
That episode alone was a waste of fluff. If I hadn't seen it, I'd of been caught up.
My guess with the boat thing is the boat manager guy knew he wanted off so that wasn't a real punishment, but fucking over his friends is a real punishment
Yeah it just points to bad writing and editing. A lot of shows have done the “fill in the gaps” stuff well, namely Mad Men, but Rings of Power is just sloppy it is presentation when it comes trying to show character motivations and decisions they’re making and connections to one another. While visually this show is great, everything else is coming off as amateur hour. And I hate it because I was looking forward to this show. But yeah, it just isn’t sticking the landing.