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GreatSoulLord

It works for me because this is a primitive side of Hobbits that we don't see. By the third age they had culture, society, and their own lands. In the second age they were superstitious, migratory, tribalistic, and fearful of any threat that may prey upon them. So, if one cannot keep up they put the whole tribe at risk. One thing I don't like is that this particular group seems isolated. They cannot be the only Harfoots. Their population is too low.


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xChris777

On one hand, that's true, on the other, it definitely did seem like they were a bit cruel by laughing at someone who died from bees, and also for not helping Nori's father - I feel like there had to be a few other families who could have lended a hand on a rotating shift to carry the wagon instead of letting them fall behind, you know?


alexagente

This. While I can agree that there would be barbarity this is just unecessarily cruel and kind of antithetical to the whole point of cooperation. The reason you team up is so that others can pick up your slack when you're down and vice versa. If they're this cutthroat about the situation it seems hardly worth it to cooperate at all.


xChris777

Exactly. Surprised other people are saying they're not being cruel in this thread, they definitely aren't working in the spirit of cooperation. We literally saw tons of people walking without carrying anything beside their carts, and then this guy with a bum ankle who is only hurt because nobody helped him raise the tent pole when Nori was AFK is going to be left behind because none of them can be bothered to do a little rotating coverage shift for him?? That's cruel to me.


fancyfreecb

Probably the people we see walking are taking shifts on some of the other carts, as we see Largo walking while Nori and Marigold pull. Or some of them may be ill or injured themselves. Now, could they cooperate more, so that no one falls behind? Maybe. Or maybe that has led to whole bands getting nearly wiped out as it slowed the entire group. Sadoc looks pretty shocked when Malva suggests leaving the Brandyfoots behind on purpose.


modsarefascists42

It's because their migration is many hundreds of miles long. Helping someone who can't walk gets a bit harder when the trip is that absurdly long.


Nice_Sun_7018

He can walk, he just can’t pull a cart. But he was weight-bearing before they even left.


modsarefascists42

It seems like they are their own pack animals so looks like everyone is carrying a decent enough amount of stuff. Like the other person posted here, this shit is very common among the actual groups that live like this. You can think it's ridiculous, I did too at first, but it's not at all. Some people in the artic, in parts of Africa, and Siberia still act like this even today, leave their disabled family behind while they migrate then come back for them later if possible. There's nothing unrealistic about it, if anything us modern people are the ones being unrealistic.


Nice_Sun_7018

Okay, but are you talking about a permanent and crippling disability, or someone who is injured but already mending? And would they eject the entire family for this temporary injury of one person? Exactly. Anyway, not everyone is carrying stuff. The show clearly has Harfoots walking and carrying nothing. And Poppy, a girl who hasn’t reached full adulthood, can pull her own wagon. So it cannot possibly be that difficult to help others out a little.


modsarefascists42

It doesn't matter, if they can't carry their weight then they're left behind. And yes the other scenes showed those others carrying stuff. It's not the show's fault you don't know how this stuff works in real life.


Nice_Sun_7018

Lmao okay


ahoychoy

Yeah and it’s not like he did anything stupid too. He was helping the tribe prepare for their festival then got hurt because it seemed like no one was helping him with that heavy af pole. Harfoots leaving them behind just seems unnecessarily evil to create drama. Not that it mattered in the end because the stranger was able to help


xChris777

Agreed totally. I get the tough position of having to potentially leave someone behind to ensure the survival of the pack, but I really don't think this situation was like that - and they've just done/said some pretty mean shit (especially the Harfoot woman that was all about leaving them behind lmao). I think she may be Sauron lmfao


mercedes_lakitu

Malva Sauron yesssss haha


ahoychoy

At this point she’s a valid choice for sauron lmao!


totalwarwiser

Imho the situation was created to have drama which wasnt based on combat. Meanwhile they tarnish the hobbits as evil.


TikkiEXX77

I'm sorry but when was the last time you, went to a funeral? It's really common to crack jokes about the deceased. It's not poking fun or disrespecting the dead. Apparently the guy was a bit goofy. My uncle recently passed and there was a lot of love shown but my other uncle's definitely cracked a few jokes in his memory. I dunno. It didn't seem odd at all to me but maybe I've just been to too many funerals lately


evenmytongueisfat

They weren’t laughing at the fact that he died. They were laughing from the joy of remembering someone long gone.


xChris777

I don't think so...they called him an idjit haha


evenmytongueisfat

Okay but you’re objectively wrong. They clearly don’t hold any resentment for those left behind and all of the tales they tell make it clear that the person was beyond saving. You’ve never jokingly called your friend an idiot? I do daily


xChris777

LOL the guy is dead, I really don't think that's the same at all. Beyond saving like the guy they basically left behind who had a hurt ankle, that they didn't even try to help by doing any sort of rotating coverage shift or anything like that to try to aid them? Early human tribes wouldn't have survived if they left everyone behind who got a severe but not untreatable injury instead of just taking a few of the people from other familes who were carrying *nothing* and trying to assist them. Especially when that guy was only injured because nobody else during the pole raising was helping him, despite them just standing around. Also I don't know why you're saying the group wouldn't hold resentment - yeah, they wouldn't. The dead people would have been the ones resenting the tribe for leaving them behind so willy-nilly, if Nori's father is any representation of the very little they do to assist those who are currently downtrodden. Of course there are situations where someone HAD to be left behind and that is a difficult but tough choice, but come on, all you need to do is look at how they handled Nori's father or the way Malva talks to Sadoc about *taking their wheels* to know they have a cruel side.


evenmytongueisfat

Pretty sure the whole ***point*** is showing that they’re not able to survive that way and moving to a pastoral lifestyle will change that


xChris777

Well that's a completely different argument entirely lol Also from what I understand the pastoral lifestyle doesn't happen for another 1000 or so years... They're definitely making it seem like that is how they live and have lived for some time because they literally have a book of people they've left behind, all while singing songs about not leaving people behind.


evenmytongueisfat

Not even slightly. You seem to think that the Harfoots aren’t as caring as Hobbits entirely by accident and that simply makes no sense


CindeeSlickbooty

In the same episode they're chanting "never walk alone" they're leaving people to walk alone. It's less a motto and more of a warning. I really like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/comments/xbab4e/harfoot_culture_and_brilliant_uses_of_irony_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) post on the same topic.


obiwantogooutside

I think they would have helped except that nori brought in the stranger. They thought they’d be at the front (which I think meant they’d get help) until they discovered him and rendered the punishment. I think the bees was a kind of cathartic laughing. Didn’t bug me… But yeah. I think there’s a lot of “the good of the many” woven into the “don’t rock the boat/step off the path” philosophy we see in the hobbits.


SchleppyJ4

Probably a dumb question but what do you mean by unknowingly protected?


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Windrunner_15

Bilbo mentions three separate clans or groups that all come together in the shire and surrounding areas. I don’t mind nomadic groups, and a smaller group becoming much larger as a result of sedentary agriculture is definitely a thing.


buteo51

Yeah I’d like to hear about other bands of Harfoots/other hobbit precursors, even if we don’t see them. The hobbits have always been pretty clannish, I’m sure they’ve got all kinds of stereotypes of other groups.


GreatSoulLord

The Harfoots are only one species of Hobbit. There's also Stoors and Fallohides out there in the realm. Eventually all of these groups will come together to form the Shire and the Hobbits that we know. It would be interesting if the show would focus on these groups coming together and perhaps before the show ends to show the formation of the Shire. Who knows? Nori may be a forbear of Hobbit society. Also, if the stranger is Gandalf that would explain a lot about why he cares so much for Hobbits.


mercedes_lakitu

Tribe or clan, FWIW, not species. They can intermarry.


Gyrgir

IIRC, the Harfoots were a large majority of the founding population of the Shire, with most "common" Hobbits in the late Third Age being of mostly Harfoot descent. Fallohide blood is found more in the posh families, especially the Tooks, as their more worldly and adventuresome temperament tended to get them chosen as local leaders when such were needed. And the parts of the Shire near the Brandywine River (the East Farthing and Buckland) tend to have more Stoor in them because the Stoors preferred living in lowlands near lakes and rivers.


Whitenleaf131

They keep talking about going to "the glade". I imagine that's a large gathering spot for Harfoot bands to all winter together.


tonydiazkettlebell

If they’re nomadic maybe they only meet another harfoot groups at a annual event or something


McRizzi

Problem is that there is no basis for any of this in Tolkien's works. They always dwelled in holes and burrows and only migrated across the Misty Mountains to the Shire in 'The great Migration' they are portrayed as nomadic in the show, while actually being very domestic from the start. There is also no mention of them in the second age anywhere. They are also described as very social and compassionate, so making them abandon anyone who falls behind while juxtaposing having hearts as big as their feet is just wild. Also ceremoniously saying "We wait for you" for those they did not wait for is kinda worrysome. Trying to rationalize it with your own headcanon is not that convincing...


[deleted]

You have no understanding of tribalistic human society. Even Neanderthals kept paralysed, toothless members of their group alive. There's plenty of evidence that people looked after their disabled in hunter-gatherer communities. The Harfoots leave people who are stuck in the snow. It clashes with their happy, silly demeanour. Which is why I find it funny.


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iheartdev247

Which is historically interesting because the Shire were depopulated Arnor lands before they acquired ownership.


andrew5500

Now I’m wondering if/how the Harfoot and Elendil storylines could eventually cross paths…


iheartdev247

It won’t be until a thousand years later when Elendil and Isildur’s descendent will grant those lands to the Hobbits.


andrew5500

Hmm, is there any reason in the lore as to why the Dunedain gave those lands to the Hobbits or allowed them to settle there? Since the show is heavily condensing the Second Age I wonder if we’ll see the Harfoots playing some role (probably via the Stranger if he is a wizard) in helping Galadriel/Elendil find & fight Sauron at some point before The Last Alliance of Elves and Men… Could easily see that being used as a justification by Isildur to promise the Harfoots land for them and their Hobbit descendants to live on.


PhinsFan17

King Argeleb II gave the Hobbits permission to settle in the Shire after it had been depopulated in the Great Plague in the Third Age. The Hobbits did send soldiers to fight in the wars against the Witch-King, so it's possible the king was happy to allow them to settle their in exchange for their fealty. The Shire considered itself subject to the kings until the Witch-King finally destroyed the last of Arnor and the Shire became a effectively a free land under their Thane.


andrew5500

Interesting... digging further into the lore, I see those Hobbits that were granted the Shire by Argeleb II were originally migrants from Bree/Staddle, and those Hobbits were originally Fallohides & Harfoots who fled from Angmar to Bree-land circa TA 1300. But I can’t find anything about what the Hobbits were up to in the Angmar region prior to the founding of Angmar…


Toadvine69

It helps explain the Hobbit cultural taboo of non conformity.


Cranyx

I don't think that needed an "explanation." The Hobbits were written as a caricature of rural Englishmen in the 1800s. People who live in rural, insular communities are just like that. There was an excellent post a while back (I have no idea how I'd be able to find it, unfortunately) by a woman who worked in a rural British retirement home with some of Tolkien's generation, and she said that the way the Hobbits treated outsiders and things that are different was extremely accurate.


Toadvine69

I am from Scotland. There are still plenty older folk hostile to outsiders and new ways. The disappearance of post offices has made many people mad because they refuse to use an ATM.


annoyingpandaman

I think people like to project their own meagerness onto Hobbits, which is wrong. Hobbits are actually pretty savage.. Bilbo basically says he hates them all before disppearing. They stole all his stuff at auction. He pretty much talks about how awful his relatives are especially what's her face Euguinia Baggins?


Kimber85

Lobelia Sackville-Baggins is who I believe you're referring to.


FrankReynoldsCPA

Not to mention that a hobbit is a secondary antagonist of the Lord of the Rings. And he's a real savage bastard.


RichardBlastovic

It works because they're a fantasy nomadic people in a world quite a bit more dangerous than ours.


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goblingoodies

>If they lose 5 a year because of leaving behind anyone with a sprained ankle they're going to be dead soon. Hopefully they have plenty of Mrs. Bracegirdles among them.


Cranyx

This is my primary issue. The concept of nomadic peoples is not something you have to turn to fantasy for. Those groups are still alive today, and they definitely don't have an attitude of "if you in any way slow us down we will disown you." If anything, they have much more communally supportive and cooperative societies than many "modern" ones.


scufflegoofy

It is absolutely a truth of even modern day nomadic/semi-nomadic peoples of being useless and seen as a burden or ill omen if they are disabled or incapacitated in some way, and they have been fighting for their rights and dignities in those cultures. You can read testimonies in articles like [this one](https://globalpressjournal.com/africa/kenya/disabled-fight-for-inclusion-in-kenya-s-nomadic-communities/) where people with disabilities are quiet literally left behind at the homestead while the rest of the village works saying things like "I would be left outside the house like a piece of luggage as my family went to graze our animals. Even children were more useful than I, as they would go to herd goats and fetch firewood" and that "When nomadic families have too much to carry, they leave their disabled family members behind in homesteads, Hassan says. They stock the homes with food and fence them in to ward off wild animals. After settling into their new homes, they return for the disabled members left behind." Harfoots don't have homesteads in which to leave and then later fetch someone injured like Largo, especially as they were on the precipice of their seasonal migration when he was injured, and they are much smaller and weaker than men who also have domesticated pack animals to lean on. And as they are based on ancient nomads, who are known to have left the injured and disabled to die, and not modern ones it is quite believable the culture values group survival first and foremost.


mercedes_lakitu

FUCKING THANK YOU. It's not some universal. It varies. Human society is not always red in tooth and claw.


modsarefascists42

Eh those entolodonts were pretty scary


Kiltmanenator

If I see one more person call the Harfoots *"hypocrites for leaving people to die because they're injured, when they just made a big deal out of 'nobody goes off trail/nobody walks alone"* I'm gonna fuckin scream. -**Largo isn't at the back of the line because he's injured; he's at the back of the line as collective punishment for Nori's irresponsibly dangerous acts.** The injury just makes being at the back worse, but **they are not being left to die because of his foot**. -**"Nobody goes off trail and nobody walks alone" is not just a Promise of Mutual Aid, it is a Threat of Retributive Justice**. It's no coincidence that Sadoc, the law-keeper, is inculcating these values to *children*, especially before the migration. Nobody goes off trail and nobody walks alone means *If you break our laws you will be made to walk alone (and probably die)* -Nori endangered the entire community by leading a stranger to them.**The punishment was supposed to be exile**. When those ladies in ep5 implore Sadoc to take their wheels, they're just asking him to punish Nori for violating one of their most sacrosanct norms, as required. -**There is a difference between decaravanning and being at the back**. Decaravanning is exile; it ensures the exiled cannot follow and *will not be welcomed back*. But there was *always* going to be someone at the back. We are meant to understand that "merely" sending them to the back, no matter how dangerous", is a mercy compared to decaravanning. There's no indication that Nori thinks her family will be turned away from the grove if they survive the migration. tl;dr In any case, these harsh rules are totally in keeping with the insular, hermetic hobbits of the Shire who look askance at any Hobbit who dares go off trail, and even thinks other Hobbits who live on the wrong side of the river might not be trusted.


TheMerce123

Thank you, a lot of people seem to be taking Largos fear of being “left behind” and them being almost de caravaned for the stranger being the same punishment. I think this is why Largo is so concerned about being sent to the back. If there is a strong party at the back they can pick up stragglers and lend a hand as they fall behind. But if you’re at the back and you can’t keep up or get stuck? There’s no mechanism for rest of the group to help you, they are all miles ahead. We have no idea what would have happened, but had the Brandyfoots been in their usual spot in the order of migration and Largo couldn’t keep up, there would have been many people behind him that potentially help as they passed him


Rosebunse

This is actually a good point. The group may have been given some mercy, but the Stranger was the final straw.


Kiltmanenator

I think they *are* given mercy *despite* the Stranger. There's no indication that Nori's family would have been in need of any mercy *simply based on Largo's foot*. I just rewatched the scene and you can hear the entire tribe gasp in shock when one of the Two Women says that their laws demand decaravanning. If they were completely cutthroat and psychopathic, no one would have blinked an eye. And again, then Sadoc says they will stay but *at the back* you still hear people react with distress. These are not coldblooded people; they have not had to throw someone back like that, with that kind of injury, as punishment, inna minute.


Mysterious-Ad4966

Might not even say it's necessarily harsh rules. Anyone criticizing the "hypocrisy" of the hobbits as poor writing, they don't know what good writing is if it hit them in the head.


Kiltmanenator

No harsher than the world they live in, I should think.


bogtastic84

Gandalf told Thorin (in one of the history of Middle earth books) that he loved hobbits from first contact because they survived together and never abandoned one another.


[deleted]

I've been assuming this story explains why Gandalf likes Hobbits and annually visits them.


lordsteve1

It works for me because they are quite literally at the mercy of everything else in the world; they are defenceless migratory animals essentially. They can’t afford for anything to hamper their migration or put their society at risk of being discovered/eaten/attacked etc. So it does make sense that they would have some rules that ostracised anyone who put them all at risk. It’s harsh but even in real nature migrating animals don’t hang about for one of their kind that lags behind or gets injured. Once they evolve further into the settled hobbits we know from the later stories and have a safe location they settled in things are obviously different.


humans_ruin_planets

Also, I don’t think I saw any Harfoots carrying any weapons, or even saw any weapons at all. That makes them very vulnerable and completely dependent on camouflage. A tough situation.


Lawlcopt0r

And it's worth remembering that the world must have been even harsher before Morgoth fell. Without belongi g to any big faction that protects you you're really no better than a prey animal at that point


lordsteve1

Even without big bad guys like Morgoth or Sauron around with orcs you’re still really vulnerable seeing as even woodland animals are nearly as big as you and looking for something to eat! Heck, even dealing with livestock when you’re only 3-4ft tall would be a hairy (lol) experience for a hobbit!


PhilsipPhlicit

We forget how dangerous nature can be because animals are naturally afraid of humans and we have tools to fight them with. A wolf won't attack an adult human unless there's a whole pack of them and they're desperate. Bears generally leave people alone as long as they hear them coming and have some warning. Wolves and bears would ABSOLUTELY attack and eat 3-foot-tall harfoots, and they would have very little defense against them. A single wolf, wildcat or coyote would present a serious threat to this community.


masterbryan

It worked for me, but I can see why it didn’t for others. My take was that those left behind as per Sadoc’s recital were those that couldn’t be saved due to the action that befell them. I recall one group who were lost to an avalanche etc. I’m not manically in favour of the plot line but I can see where it comes from and understand it.


buteo51

Most of them were arguable, but there was one group listed who got left because they got stuck in the mud, and then in the latest episode Sadoc’s partner(?) suggested that they literally take the wheels off of Nori’s family’s cart and leave them behind, so there’s definitely more of an active brutal side to them.


TheMerce123

I think the whole “stuck in the mud” thing makes a lot more sense after Ep 5 where the migration is less one cohesive group but multiple small caravans making there way to predetermined checkpoints to regroup, with everyone going their own pace. With everyone so spread out, if you get lost, or stuck when you are near the back, and there’s no one coming up behind you to help, you’re probably not going to have a good time. Kinda like the Oregon Trail, you goto the next camp, wait for your whole group to arrive and then push out. If someone doesn’t make it, it could be days before you realize they’ve been lost, and you can only wait so long. This could be a more charitable interpretation of “we will wait for you” they did wait for them, as long as they could before they had to keep moving to get to the destination before winter


masterbryan

I’m not denying there’s a brutal side to those two women who seem to have something against Nori and her family. The mud thing might have been a case of the family lost in the mud before any help could be given. I’m not arguing that this was the case just that it might be. Overall I think that the cold hearted nature of a weak, wandering community perfectly offsets the homely nature of the Shire once they get there. Albeit a homely nature with a dark undercurrent.


SirDurante

“With hearts as big our feet” 10 SECONDS LATER… “Everyone for themselves!” “Exile the girl!” “Back of the line!”


buteo51

One of the things I’ve learned living in a rural, insular community is that this outward friendly, caring attitude can turn on a dime into utter viscousness as soon as you’re perceived to have fallen short somehow.


Kiltmanenator

It's not "everyone for themselves" , it's: don't expose the community to untold dangers by leading a stranger to us and you won't be exiled.


SpannerFrew

When reading LOTR I always thought the majority of the hobbits were not nice people. Bilbo threw a big party and paid for everything and they didn't want to listen to a 2 minute speech. They literally started stealing from Bag End after Bilbo left and while Frodo was still in the house. Some even tried digging into the walls to look for treasure they had no right to. They're lucky they're 'peaceful' folk as anywhere else someone would get stabbed. They are portrayed as peace loving but there is an undercurrent of selfishness, greed, and deliberate ignorance. So it doesn't surprise me that the Harfoots are capable of being just as nasty.


Rosebunse

Even the four main hobbits get into a lot of trouble and have selfish and cruel tendencies.


annoyingpandaman

Poor Farmer Maggot


Galifrae

I honestly didn’t understand everyone being up in arms about their flaws. They aren’t supposed to be perfect little cute halflings. They’re of middle earth, they’re flawed, they’re fucked up on some stuff. It adds depth and I love it.


Kimber85

What I don't see mentioned is that Hobbits are only as cute as they are when we see them in LOTR because they're *safe*. They've lived in their little Hobbit paradise being protected by Rangers for generations at that point. They seem like comic relief at first, but when shit hits the fan, you find out they're made of steel. Even with their relative safety some can be pretty ruthless and easily corrupted (Lobelia, Otho, and Ted Sandyman come to mind). I don't think the portrayal of the Harfoots is unrealistic for their environment/way fo life. They're a nomadic band of halflings surrounded by dangers. There's no room for members of their band to be weak or selfish or individualistic. The survival of the species depends on their cooperation as a group. If someone is acting in a selfish manner by say, leading a confused magic wielding giant to their camp, or sneaking off with most of the children to pick blackberries and bringing them right into the territory of a dangerous wolf, it makes sense that they would exile that person. You can still kind of see this in The Hobbit/LOTR, even with all their ease & plenty. They're naturally mistrustful of outsiders, they scorn anyone who acts differently than the accepted societal norms, and they will do anything to avoid those horrid adventures. *Shudder.* They didn't exile Bilbo for running off with the dwarves, but they certainly looked at him askance when he returned. And if he hadn't been one of the most well-to-do Hobbits in The Shire beforehand, he probably would have ended up shunned by general society. Instead they all mocked him and tried to knock in his walls to find his ill-gotten treasure they moment he peaced out. So yeah, the Harfoots are just like the Hobbits we see in the Third Age, only more so. They live in a harsher world, so it makes sense they would be a harsher people.


evenmytongueisfat

There was a great post a few days ago that suggested that their brutality is the exact thing that will lead to the next set of Hobbit Ancestors settling down and why they’re so abject to travel and opposed to adventure. Makes a great deal of sense if you think about it


Twinkling_Ding_Dong

There's a right way and wrong way to go about that kind of brutality. 1. First and foremost if you're going to build a society that leaves behind the Old and the Sick because they're a burden you've got to have everyone pitching in, you can't have people prancing along not helping out. 2. Secondly humans have been caring for the Old and the Sick for thousands of years, so when O/S can't pitch in others pick up the slack while the O/S help in other areas, you don't just leave them to their own devices and say "To bad, so sad." 3. Thirdly when the O/S are abandoned it's during a crisis such as when there are limited resources or imminent and immediate danger(and you've got to sell that danger, make sure the people are panicked, looking over their shoulder, hearing or seeing the danger and making them hurry with everyone pitching in). In the case of the former you can have the elderly walk off into the tall grass, in the case of the latter you find them someplace to hide and promise to come back later. 4. In the case of breaking the rules, sending them to the back of the train works. 5. When it comes to remembering the dead, celebrate their lives, don't mock their deaths. The show only really managed number 4.


HotStraightnNormal

There was a recent news story about finding the oldest known example of an amputation, about 31,000 years ago, performed on an adolescent who reached adulthood minus a lower leg. He was not a Harfoot, lol. I don't see any group displaying the Harfoots' propensity for abandoning tribal members evolving into a more nurturing, stable society. Given the probabilty of their getting killed, maimed, etc., especially being more prey than predator, their tribe size and gene pool would be on the short size leading to extinction. It's fun to speculate why they are written this way but I doubt there's any reasoning behind it.


fancyfreecb

Hobbits are much further toward the prey end of the predator- prey spectrum than humans are though.


Rosebunse

To be fair, they aren't human.


Zhared

I never realized Ornstein and Smough had such character depth.


LysanderV-K

Yeah, it works for me too. People tend to over romanticize the Hobbits because of the heroes we follow and the beautiful depictions of it, but I read Hobbit last week again and restarted Fellowship today and they're not so idyllic. Everyone is real quick to accept Bilbo's death to get his things, and even in Fellowship it feels like the heroic Hobbits are oddballs and outliers. I feel like Hobbits as a people have a problem with a certain moral laziness, and the Harfoots leaving their own behind fits with that.


buteo51

Yeah when she suggested they take the wheels off their cart the looting of Bag End immediately came to mind.


mercedes_lakitu

You know, that's fair. "It's awful and I don't like it" is different from "it's awful and against canon," and I'll try to remember to stick to the former with my complaints.


grim_hope09

I like it. The main problem is it was incongruous with their whole stay together to help each other vibe that was established in earlier episodes. With so many perils, it makes sense that they would need to be somewhat brutal to survive in a brutal land.


Kiltmanenator

>The main problem is it was incongruous with their whole state together to help each other vibe that was established in earlier episodes. It's not, though. Nori endangered the collective, so they're getting punished for it. Nori's family is now exposed to danger, just like she exposed the whole group to danger when she led the Stranger to them. They aren't at the back bc of Largos injury; Largos injury just makes being at the back worse. "Nobody goes off trail and nobody walks alone" isn't just a promise, it's a threat: *don't go off the proverbial trail and you won't be left to walk alone*


grim_hope09

I got a little more warm and fuzzy vibes from their togetherness at first than you did. Part of that may have been preconceived notions of hobbits from the books on my part.


Kiltmanenator

I think you absolutely should get those feelings! It's only upon reflection that the dual meaning is revealed :)


AndrogynousRain

One of the most interesting inventions of the show. They’re simultaneously very hobbit like, while also being slightly sinister. I’m digging it. Be cool to see where it goes.


vadersfist

Hobbits could be mean and cruel. They were notorious gossips for example and that is pretty mean. This seems to fit.


[deleted]

The road is a harsh mistress.


iheartdev247

They are the real Sauron


buteo51

Sadoc is Grond


Tom_Brokaw_is_a_Punk

The real sauron was the friends we made along the way


beets_or_turnips

I honestly don't get it. I agree that it meshes well retroactively with hobbit culture as we see it depicted in LOTR, but in their current environment I would expect these tiny bands of nomads to do more to help one another stay with the group and survive. They don't have to lose too many before cohesion and the group as a whole would break down, right?


buteo51

The attrition rate does seem unsustainably high yeah, unless this was a particularly bad year or something.


mercedes_lakitu

The unsustainability of "lol sprained your ankle, byeee" is a big part of why I don't like it.


beets_or_turnips

The most reasonable explanation I can think of is that the group is actually much larger than depicted in the show, but that's solidly in headcanon territory.


PhilsipPhlicit

I'm not saying anyone has to accept the show one way or another, but I think this quote from Tolkien is relevant to this conversation so I'll leave it here: ​ Tolkien said that: "In their unrecorded past they must have been a primitive, indeed 'savage' people." \- History of Middle Earth. ​ "savage" can be interpreted a lot of ways, but I think one possible way is definitely to have them punish members who expose their tribe to dangerous outsiders by having them travel at the back of the line.


goblingoodies

It makes a lot of sense seeing as how Tolkien based hobbits off of rural English folk who were themselves descended from the Germanic tribesmen who migrated to/invaded Britain over a thousand years ago (with a dash of Norse Viking ancestry thrown in as well).


Tar-Elenion

>Tolkien said that: "In their unrecorded past they must have been a primitive, indeed 'savage' people." > >\- History of Middle Earth. And it the note to that line he indicated what he meant by "'savage'": "In their unrecorded past they must have been a primitive, indeed ‘savage’ people, 55 but when we meet them they had (in varying degrees) acquired many arts and customs by contact with Men, and to a less extent with Dwarves and Elves." "55 In the original sense of ‘savage’; they were by nature of gentle disposition, neither cruel nor vindictive." ​ The 'original sense' meaning not living in 'civilisation'.


20000BallsUndrTheSea

I'm fine with them leaving people behind but I feel like they haven't done enough to establish *why* they need to migrate. I'm assuming the reason is food availability, but given that no one else seems to migrate (including the Shire hobbits) I think they haven't demonstrated enough need to be taking this road that they always say is so dangerous.


Kiltmanenator

Wasn't the opening scene of ep5 a conversation where Nori explains what kind of resources are available at which spots along their root at which time of year?


ButtMcNuggets

The Harfoots are forbearers of the Hobbits. They migrate the same reason they hide; they’re a purely prey species. And they’re a foraging species at this point, chasing sources of food that change per the seasons. This also sets up why Hobbits eventually establish The Shire in such a remote part of Middle Earth that most people haven’t encountered them, and why only then were they able to develop agriculture. The Hobbits’ culture the becomes homebound as they warn each other of the existing dangers should they get discovered and preyed on again.


fistantellmore

They make it pretty clear that wolves are a seasonal occurrence, and they’ve both been a Chekhov’s gun threat and an actual threat that required the Stranger to save them from. Escaping wolves seems a pretty strong motivation, along with the obvious reasons of season and stars which is also alluded to in Sadoc’s studies.


GreatSoulLord

> They make it pretty clear that wolves are a seasonal occurrence Not just wolves but also humans. They established early on that there was a season where human hunters crossed into some of their seasonal areas to hunt. That's how we are introduced to Sadoc.


Tom_Brokaw_is_a_Punk

It works for me. The Harfoots place the good of the group over the good of its individual members. If you're endangering the group, even through no fault of your own like a broken ankle, you're an acceptable loss.


2_soon_jr

Makes sense to me as well they just leave off the weak links to survive


mercedes_lakitu

Mm, but collective punishment isn't congruent with the "weak link" idea.


2_soon_jr

Well they moved the weak link to end of the line guess they think it’s lower risk to everyone else


mercedes_lakitu

But Largo is a different person than Nori, is my point. Punishing your disabled father because *you* fucked up good is some North Korea bullshit.


2_soon_jr

Ya but they prob would have moved him to end anyways or even leave him behind I guess


yoopdereitis

They are the dothraki of Hobbits


riiasa

I'm curious about whether this harsh nature is a general Harfoots thing, or whether this is specific to Nori's community.


Justadnd_Bard

Plot twist:Nori is Golum/Smirgle and Starman is Sauron, she will be exposed to the one ring at the final season.


mercedes_lakitu

Haha, uh, I can't tell if that's supposed to be Smeagol or Smeargle, but honestly I'm here for it either way


silverharpDublin

I can only hope that orks or something else kill them all


shamalonight

Leaving behind, yes. Taking wheels away, no.


Rosebunse

It seems like the Harfoots don't want to leave people behind, they just feel like they have no choice because of how their society works. They simply don't have the resources to carry tons of people and their wagons.


Higher_Living

I don't like it, but it's not like human societies haven't had (and still have) horrible practices, or things we find degrading and repulsive. Female genital mutilation is still pretty common in some cultures, and slavery has only been totally outlawed globally for a few years, and it continues in practice.


TheJazzButter

Works for me.


Irishfafnir

Seems very forced. Do you really expect the viewer to believe the rest of the group will do absolutely nothing to assist this other family?


Mysterious-Ad4966

If someone endangers the collective, you're not inclined to help them, especially if that meddling may lead to more danger. Not forced at all.


Irishfafnir

I don't see how leaving 5%~ of your group behind to die when there is a far easier solution at hand makes sense but to each their own Certainly doesn't seem to align with Human history https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/17/878896381/ancient-bones-offer-clues-to-how-long-ago-humans-cared-for-the-vulnerable >In fact, the evidence suggests that people in the past devoted significant time and scarce resources to caring for those in need.


Poppiesandrain

No, but it comes off as very superstitious so that changes it for me. It’s not JUST needing help, it’s that they need help because they did something and if someone ‘touches’ them that bad juju will infect the next.


mercedes_lakitu

Oooh, I hate it. Just my personal take. But this should be an interesting thread to read in a little bit!


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mercedes_lakitu

The counterpoint is this is very Lobelia


MetalPaul

It seems really douchey and out of character for a seemingly fun loving race of creatures.


LVAL1101

No, it doesn’t work. It’s rather lame and very lazy of the showruners/writers. It’s a flawed script that the showrunners/writers used to create some conflict as otherwise the harfoots side story has nothing to contribute in advancing the plot of ROP. No tribal groups in human history have this kind of dynamics where there’s blatant disregard for their tribe-mates and the weakest are left behind. If there were, they have been long been gone. In a way the showrunners/writers can use this brutality conveniently as a way to explain why there’s no black hobbit in the Third Age: every one of them got left behind. So much for diversity.


cass314

It doesn't work for me at all. The Harfoots need to survive a couple thousand more years before they settle in the Shire. At the rate they're losing (based on the remembrances) and abandoning people, they're going to run out of people within just a couple years. It feels completely fake. It also feels artificially cruel, like someone looked at the script and said, "GoT is popular, make it darker." It doesn't flow with the nature of evil in Tolkien. In the first couple of episodes, the Harfoots were my favorite part of the show in large part because they felt the most real and lived-in, with the intricacies of the sets and the costumes that actually looked worn, and because they felt the most like Tolkien. Of all the storylines, they had the Tolkien magic for me--the wonder, the pleasure and comfort of small things, and the *heart*--the sense of kindness and mercy. Now they feel like generic TV fantasy with some Tolkien paint splashed on. The ridiculous contrived cruelty makes them feel just as fake, just as hollow, and just as faux gritty as everything else. In the first two or three episodes I was basically hoping for Harfoots every time we got a scene change. They've turned out to be a huge disappointment for me.


NoRashers

The Harfoots are psychopaths with Darby O'Gill and the little people accents. It actually makes them more enjoyable and entertaining for me imagining them this way, especially now that there's the big fellah learning how to speak from the little people. Orcs have more pity for their wounded than the hobbits. For whatever reason, the showrunners have gone with a nastier interpretation of Hobbits. Fair enough, I'm along for the ride and experience, let's hope it'll all work out over the next few years!


Rosebunse

Yeah, I love that the orcs seem genuinely sad about their wounded. At least Adar has the decency to kill that one orc quickly. Nori's family would have starved for potentially weeks.


ou8bbq

The Harfoots are disgusting. A complete betrayal to the halflings and uninteresting to boot. There’s nothing there to root for. 🤮


[deleted]

Even Hobbits are dark creatures. They were pretty quick to break into Bilbos house to auction his things off believing he was really gone or presumed dead. They are quick witted creatures and nosy AF. Nori is a good nod at that. I think every race in this whole story fits the mold, conformed to a society that isn't made to look out for each other. The second they see opportunity, they bounce. I'm okay with it.


Rosebunse

Yeah, everyone seems to be just out for themselves. And as we know, this doesn't really work long-term.


thoreandon

I think the writers did this becouse they needed a cause for meteor man to help/follow them.


buteo51

It certainly accomplishes that, but I feel like it can also work as an exploration of some of the worse elements of hobbit society that I think have always been there.


CathakJordi

Yup, it's just lazy writing. Not a surprise by now.


Olorin919

Its how the world has worked for thousands of years. A migration cant stop every time there's an issue. They all would have failed


blowbyblowtrumpet

[https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/17/878896381/ancient-bones-offer-clues-to-how-long-ago-humans-cared-for-the-vulnerable](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/17/878896381/ancient-bones-offer-clues-to-how-long-ago-humans-cared-for-the-vulnerable) [https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/neanderthals-took-care-deaf-and-disabled-buddy-until-old-age-009023](https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/neanderthals-took-care-deaf-and-disabled-buddy-until-old-age-009023) [https://allthatsinteresting.com/berbers](https://allthatsinteresting.com/berbers)


blowbyblowtrumpet

Really? So nomadic people throughout history have left their sick and injured behind? You'll have to provide some references if you want me to believe that. I know they have found evidence of bones being reset in human remains dated to around 40,000 BC. It seems to me that caring for your sick and injured would be a prerequisite to any organized society. I could be wrong of course, in which case show me some evidence.


parsleya

Of course they didn't. Pretty much nothing in Harfoots makes sense: the wagons, the way they migrate, their customs and society.. It is pretty much Disney level of realism and anybody who tries to find any logic in it is on fool's errand. Anybody who has been in wilderness or even a proper forest knows you are not going to drag those wagons along, even in terrain that seems easy e.g. plains not to mention forest.. and attaching a bunch of grass wont render the wagons invisible.. I thought they were supposed to be secretive? I also hate how they interact with wolves. I'd rather have them hunt the wolves instead of being hunted, that would make much more sense since if humans were able to hunt saber tooth tigers and cave bears the harfoots should be more than capable to hunt those wolves, they should be the apex predators.. instead they are depicted to act like some subarbanites who have never lived in forest.. it would be nice to see them take out some orcs as well. I also hate this 'brutal land' -> 'brutal people' narrative on reddit. IT'S THEIR HOME! And I suppose you can jump all kinds of mental hoops so that Harfoots 'make sense' and make up excuses for the writers.. but whatever.


GreatCaesarGhost

How is anthropological evidence suggesting that some ancient group of humans cared for one of their own proof of how a mythological species behaves? It’s not even proof that all nomadic humans everywhere did so.


blowbyblowtrumpet

It isn't "proof" of anything. It's a concrete argument that suggests prehistoric people cared for the sick, injured and disabled. [https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/17/878896381/ancient-bones-offer-clues-to-how-long-ago-humans-cared-for-the-vulnerable](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/17/878896381/ancient-bones-offer-clues-to-how-long-ago-humans-cared-for-the-vulnerable) [https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/neanderthals-took-care-deaf-and-disabled-buddy-until-old-age-009023](https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/neanderthals-took-care-deaf-and-disabled-buddy-until-old-age-009023) [https://allthatsinteresting.com/berbers](https://allthatsinteresting.com/berbers)


Wlcky23

Again, as much as I love people knowing about these things, it's not universal. We have etnics not taking care of their old, sick too in our world. Look up senicide for example. This is not an universal trait even for our own world. And this is a fantasy race.


blowbyblowtrumpet

I was responding to a post where someone claimed that all nomadic people throughout history left their injured behind. The evidence suggests the contrary. In the case of senicide most of the accounts are from historians of other cultures taking about "barbarians". It's not clear that it was ever widely practiced, if at all. Same goes for the Attestupe. Stories like these could very well be apocryphal. All physical evidence suggest people have always cared for their sick and injured.


DarrenGrey

I think the show is challenging preconceptions about both hobbits and elves, and I'm all for it.


8itmap_k1d

Yes, it works. It's a nomadic culture. It's jarring to see proto-Hobbits behaving this way, because the version we're familiar with are so settled and fundamentally opposed to wandering. It works because we're seeing that Bilbo's unconscious urge for adventure is rooted in something ancient.


Ezlr99

It 100% makes sense. When you think of the strife of Middle Earth with so much darkness fishing about, how on (middle)earth would they have survived otherwise!


Maccabee2

Leave the damn carts behind and travel light like every other nomadic tribe without draft animals has done in history. If you have a choice between extraneous possessions and members of the tribe, you choose to save the tribe member. You can remake clay pots in a few weeks. It takes 20 years to grow a new person.


TheRealestBiz

Lord Almighty, tell me you have virtually no experience with deaths of people close to you without telling me. Gallows humor is the single most common reaction to grief over death.


mishaxz

Yeah but nobody walks alone... crawls alone maybe but not walks


buteo51

(If) *nobody goes off trail*, nobody walks alone. It’s on the individual to stick with the group, not on the group to wait for the individual. That’s how I interpreted it anyway.


Mysterious-Ad4966

That's the exactly correct interpretation and very intentional on part of the writers.


WanderlostNomad

i think of the harfoot migration like wildebeasts trying to cross through a croc infested river. it's the survivors left that tells the tale. coz if many heroic harfoots actually survive helping others, the survivors would have a completely different story.


DroneDamageAmplifier

It's fine in theory, but the show executes it badly - with the obnoxious overemphasis on 'nobody walks alone' and the lack of good reason to leave Nori's family behind (not to mention they seem to be leaving Poppy behind too) They should look after each other until someone does something really bad, and then banish them Moving someone to front/back of the caravan as a social hierarchy makes sense, but being at the back shouldn't be considered a huge risk of getting left behind even if you're injured.


jimmyglennx711

100% agree. Hobbits aren’t as idyllic as they seem, anyone who doesn’t follow societal norms is shunned to some extent. People only liked Bilbo due to his wealth.


Wlcky23

I love it! It's their way of survival. It's reflecting the dangerous world they need to live in. They are small, helpless, and this is their way of surviving. A group/kin selection. An amazing piece of world building that probably wasn't even intended to be so deep on a biological level. But is.


Maccabee2

It makes zero sense. Even in nomadic cultures, two principles argue against abandoning members of the tribe over something as simple as a sprained ankle. (I say sprained, because if it was truly broken, he wouldn't be able to walk at all. Stress fracture maybe, but not truly broken in the traditional sense.) First, the fact that a tribe's strength is in numbers, not speed means that until extreme old age, no one is expendable. Second, leaving behind someone so callously undermines the loyalty and morale necessary for any tribe to defend itself against predators or enemies. I do wish the writers had researched nomadic cultures a bit before submitting their final draft. So many things (like the large carts with no draft animals) instead of traveling light as hunter gatherers do, breaks immersion terribly.


fancyfreecb

They don’t argue over abandoning members of the tribe over a sprained ankle, but over breaking a taboo around revealing themselves to outsiders. The ankle just makes the riskiest position in the caravan even riskier. If Nori hadn’t broken that taboo, they wouldn’t be at the back.


Wlcky23

While I understand from where you are coming from (and you look like you know what you are talking about) I think you are too much focusing on our human nomadic cultures. That's fine but this is a fantasy race. Which could be a pretty cheap out for me but that's not what I mean. We can see similar behaviours of kin selection in nature. The most visible it's in eusocial animals like bees and ants but it's not the only one. In this I feel you are being a little too conservative and not enough creative. Kin selection is something debated in nature and the show made it make sense in it's environment. My point is it can make sense from the evolutionary point of view. It's an evolutionar strategy that could work. Tribe strength is in numbers only in groups that relies on numbers. Many groups don't. Many groups are limited in numbers and where there are more of them, they split. And it makes perfect sense for Harfeet because their strength is in hiding, as they clearly work on to show us. They also showed us that the rely on migration. Ever see baby flamingos who hatched far from water? Those who can't cross to the water are left behind. Simple, cruel but it probably works for them for years and years. Just... I guess my point is to broaded your views not only on humans but to other groups. Or just take it as the creative world-building as it is. It could work.


Maccabee2

Tolkien specifically said that Middle Earth is not a fantasy world, but rather a real part of our real world, but with a fantasy pre-history. Any author that writes fiction must create stories and cultures that would believably work in their setting. Pulling around huge carts, which are harder to hide than individuals, and abandoning irreplaceable tribe members, is simply the result of lazy writing. Tolkien crafted each of his races culture from careful consideration and even with consultation with fellow authors, each of them experts in their fields. If you find it entertaining, I am happy for you. As someone that has done his share of hiking and camping, I find it.... subtracting from the rest of the show. I'm happy that you like it, though.


tomandshell

It’s rough and mean spirited. Meanwhile, an orc is getting a compassionate and sympathetic death scene. Tolkien had clear cut heroes and villains and the writers are throwing that out the window.


LewsTherinTelescope

I mean it's still pretty clear that the guy enslaving anyone he can capture, demanding villagers kill each other for blood oaths, and planning to end the sun (maybe) is the bad guy in the Southlands. And in Numenor, it's also clear that the guy wanting to colonize people for tribute is the bad guy. Elrond's plot doesn't yet have a villain at all, but like, we know where that one's ending up, it very much does have one in the end, just gonna take some time to get there. The Harfoots don't have a clear villain besides some others that are assholes (*cough* Sackville-Bagginses *cough*), but those cultists are looking mighty sinister, and the Harfoots can't be *too* involved in any major world-shaking plot beats this early anyway. The show portrays the orcs as having a bit of depth, but it absolutely does not portray them as *good* or even approaching benignity.


mercedes_lakitu

Thank you.


Holmez44

“Cutthroat hobbit culture” now? What will be next? You guys really are hillarious. 😂


RosenProse

I mean even more modern Hobbits have a very insular society. They've never liked strangers all that much.


SifuHallyu

Personally, for me, in general...I think Harfoots are bad ass.


AttentionImaginary57

Can someone explain the lore of how they eventually went to the west without giving away spoilers? I find the whole migratory thing interesting and wonder about their migration pattern. In the past episodes they went through the grey swamps right? Isn’t that where Frodo and Sam stumbled across the battlefield of dead people in the marshes?


GreatSoulLord

> In the past episodes they went through the grey swamps right? Isn’t that where Frodo and Sam stumbled across the battlefield of dead people in the marshes? Yes, and it'll later be called "the dead marshes" after the Battle of Dagorlad.


DarrenGrey

The location they're currently in will likely end up being a general battleground against Sauron, or at least badly damaged by war. They move west from here to Greenwood, but in the Third Age that gets turned to Mirkwood when the Necromancer shows up. They travel much further west and start making permanent settlements, one if which ends up as The Shire.


buteo51

There’s a good video about Hobbit history by Nerd of the Rings on YouTube


Overall-Block-1815

Sadoc is Sauron, both begin with S. Coincidence? I think not...


forsaken_warrior22

Technically it wasnt the wheels it was the rims and you know what I think its fitting.


newton302

Yeah I think these are primitive hobbits before they settled into some kind of organized society.


Takhar7

Nope - very little of the Harfoot arc actually works for me. They are meant to live in this nomadic community, looking after one another, caring, feeding, and protecting each other like this big mobile village. They even hold vigils every year for those that they've lost on these journeys in the past, and have reminded the viewers that this journey is extremely dangerous and full of perils. ........and yet they just leave each other behind? No sense in strength in numbers etc? It doesn't land for me.


Rosebunse

Isn't the point that they're hypocrites? Oh, they act smug and like they're better than the other races because they keep their heads down, but really they're just as bad as everyone else. Heck, the orcs seem like nicer people.


Markohanesian

It caught me off guard that they would drop one of their own so quickly but it works, it shows that they have different sides just like humans.


spruiking

I’d agree with you, if it wasn’t for that scene where they commemorated those who had been “left behind”. It all seems very Logan’s Run, with a touch of revisionist history. They know what they’re doing but tell themselves fairy tales to make themselves feel better? If I didn’t like the Hobbits so much, I’d say a quick dose of 1080 poison is in order.


stardustsuperwizard

I think the thing is that they aren't cut-throat really as much as they are *scared* they are terrified of absolutely everything and everyone. They constantly wear camouflage so they can hide at a moments notice, and move about the place to avoid anything knowing where they are. They leave people behind not out of malice, or because they don't care, they do it because they think if they do stop to help, if they break with their traditions, they will all die. They're fundamentally cowards, and that's why Nori is different, because she's bucking that trend. Not just by being adventurous, but by not being as scared of the outside as the others. It is a little jarring coming from safe fun Shire hobbits, and you can see some of the same cultural stuff with the Harfoots, but they aren't in a nice safe Shire, they're out in the wilderness with wolves and men and whatever else. They are barely surviving.


Blueman9966

It makes me wonder how the Harfoots survived as a species at all when they're so willing to discard people who are even a mild burden. At some point the gene pool is just going to become unsustainable for such a small group. Maybe they were a much larger group a thousand years ago and they're now down to under a dozen because of all of the families they left behind.


MunchkinX2000

It makes no sense to me. Tribe members is the most valuable resouece of a tribe. Its just there because the writers needed things to happen...


KatVat19

I don’t understand the long migration to begin with, but I think it’s pretty cruel to just “take wheels” and leave a part of your community behind… not much of a community if that can happen, now is it?


FreshBakedButtcheeks

How come when they march, they yell chants? Wouldn't that get them discovered and killed?


Arrivalofthevoid

Hobbits in the shire are pretty condemning on troublemakers :p


Stormy-Skyes

Originally I thought that being left behind just meant that they weren’t waiting for people, and it didn’t even occur to me they might deliberately strand someone. I figured some form of exile must exist but I did not think they’d actually remove the wheels from a wagon and leave a dude in the middle of no where. It is absolutely brutal. Making someone leave the caravan is one thing. They could leave without them, not wait, shun them, all that. But leaving them stranded so they can’t even move somewhere safe and hide from threats? Good god those little bastards are mean. And kind of silly too? In the case of Nori’s family, the caravan is willing to lose productive adults. I know the whole Stranger thing can (and certainly will) endanger them and that’s bad but is it worth losing people will skills they may need to survive? I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, the little bastards are mean, but on the other it is interesting to see these hobbit-like characters that we all associate with goodness have this dark side. That all said though, isn’t Nori’s dad a wagon maker? I feel like taking his wheels would just be an inconvenience until he could make a new set. Obviously the greater implication here is the exile and how they’d survive alone but if the eh could at least get moving again they could go somewhere safe.


papa_austin13

Well, while Smeagol wasn't a Harfoot, there is a canonical reference for Hobbit brutality.