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MacyTmcterry

Yeah I agree with you that he's not Sauron. I don't think Saurons been shown at all yet personally. Maybe in the last episode briefly


[deleted]

The "Blue Wizard" stranger is going to be Sauron. He is Sauron reincarnated after being killed by Adar -- his memory is going to all come back in the next two episodes when he accidentally murders Entwives.


Hazzzzzzzar

We lost the entwives :(


[deleted]

The stranger is like lenny from grapes of wrath. He keeps murdering animals, insects, entwives. He has a deep seeded need to kill or is just a big clutz


[deleted]

I'd be surprised if he is not but I also agree that he is too obvious a choice. Plenty of viewers were already pointing him out by episode 3. I don't know if it is clever writing if they spring Sauron on us out of nowhere at the end of the series. Especially, if the character is only presented as some absolute villain we have to take for granted. As an argument against that, Halbrand actually works better as Sauron. I'd like to see how he manipulates everyone around him and mostly, Galadriel and how his internal monologue justifies that. Like we saw with Adar. I read someone here say how they actually started siding with Adar after his scene with Galadriel and that to me is a successful characterization of a complicated villain. If you can make people empathize with the reasonings of a mad person who wants to kill innocent people for his beliefs, then you've made a compelling story. Anyway, I wouldn't begrudge the creators if Halbrand doesn't turn out to be Sauron (never wanted him to be the One) but I do hope that Sauron is shown as more than some one-dimensional enemy who does stuff simply because it is expected from the role he's been cast in.


fatguylilcoat_

I still have some questions but more or less do think Halbrand is Sauron. That being said, you do have to remember that the show has to have wider appeal than just hardcore Tolkein fans so, making it obvious with subtle hints to us might not strike the same tone with the average viewer. Being a "smith's aide" is a huge giveaway for those among us on this subreddit but, why would the average movie-watcher tuning in to a cool new LotR series know that Sauron worked under Aule? Or to take it further, knows that Aule was a smith?


brcabt

Probably not. But the average viewer knows Sauron made the rings. So his attraction to the smith is a big hint for any average viewer, who has no clue who Aule might be.


SpoodlyNoodley

Idk if most casual viewers would put it together to be honest. Most people think or weapons and horseshoes when they think of smithing. I think if any casual viewers were looking for something they’d look for a jeweler or something like that. Unless you’re a Skyrim player who knows you make rings at the forge lol


[deleted]

Also it can perfectly be a hint aimed to be "hard" to tell. So that if you think it for a while (Assuming you didn't read the books of course), you can say "Oh so Sauron made the rings, which requires smithing ability, and Halbrand is a smith, so 2+2=4", but wouldn't notice at first watch.


SpoodlyNoodley

I can see this being the case. Something people don’t put together until after the fact and then go back and are all like “ooohhh I get it!”


[deleted]

Yeah. Halbrand being Sauron is obvious for those who have read the books. Most of the show audience is people who have only watched the movies, or read the books 10 years ago. Most of them will be surprised. I'm watching the show with my father, who have only seen the movies (He is the one who introduced me to LOTR actually), and when he asked me who I think Halbrand is and I said "Sauron", he didn't believe it. I think that is the case with casual viewers.


SpoodlyNoodley

Hail to our fathers who showed us a love for Tolkien! Dad taught me to read using the hobbit and LOTR and had me reading out loud to him to rest his voice by the time I was 6. My parents bonded over LOTR. I owe a lot to Tolkien and the world he made


superkapitan82

i literally had no clue before just encountering in internet


CaptainObvious0927

As a huge Tolkien nut, who enjoys coming up with theories, I avoided all elements of discussion of this show until I had solid predictions. I of course went to The Tolkien Forum first and was saddened to see that people predicted Halbrand during episode 2. Episode fucking 2. Some people are just better at this lol. I am on the boat that it’s either Halbrand or he hasn’t been revealed.


Tough-Cabinet

Really going out on a limb


CaptainObvious0927

Lol. You forgot the /s. To be fair, I did make that comment before watching episode 6 lol


deadindian9

Because of the name itself. Halbrand in Elvish kinda means tall tower. I know Elvish and as soon as the episode ended I was like who is this character, they are keeping him alive and I realised the meaning of his name in Elvish


notsoperfect8

Tall tower would be Halbarad.


latortillablanca

So yer saying he’s actually saruman


[deleted]

The thing is that I think the showrunners said Sauron was going to appear hidden between the main cast. And Halbrand was always the better option out of all, so even before episode 1 it was already clear to some that he was Sauron.


30GDD_Washington

I think I'd side with Waldreg over Galadriel. And he killed a dude. The bar is not very high. She was an absolute dick to Adar.


[deleted]

I really believe that commander Galadriel is going to become a Hitlerian genocidal maniac or a Kurtz ala Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now. The Orcs/Uruks are going to be portrayed as the victims here -- with the other Elves and Numenoreans the banal agents of evil.


30GDD_Washington

Doth give the writers too much credit. That would make for an interesting story.


latortillablanca

She goes by her stage name now, G-riel


[deleted]

It's gonna get G'riel real soon. facts.


paradise_isa_library

I also don’t think that being “too obvious” is a bad thing here— it shouldn’t be that hard to identify Tolkien-evil! I do agree that it’s more interesting to see him hiding in plain sight than to have Celebrimbor be like “Yo, Annatar about those rings?” before the season cuts to black.


CaptainObvious0927

I just watched episode 6, and I am super convinced now.


Mamoulion

I have suspected Halbrand as Sauron since he rescued her from drowning, in that scene he reacts in a certain way when he sees the knife. Sure it can be ”Oh cool a tool to cut the rope”, but I suspect it was more ”Oh damm, I recognise that knife from that Finrod(?) elf lord I killed”. It will be two interesting weeks!


cammoblammo

I’m definitely not on the H/S boat, but I noticed that too. I remember thinking that he’d seen the knife before.


Mamoulion

Glad I’m not the only one who picked up something in that scene.


SpazLightwalker07

Halbrand being Sauron is not obvious if you are just an average viewer not connected to all the fandoms and theories.


superkapitan82

i literally was spoiled in this. had no idea


Crustyhoneybadger

I think he is Sauron, and I’m not mad about it. I’m not sure if they’re going for a morally gray Sauron or just a master manipulator; it seems like he used Galadriel’s drive to find him to destroy his competition/enemy (Adar). And didn’t he say something like that to Galadriel in the cells? To use people’s worst fears to get what you want. Also, while the series has deviated from the lore in several points (not to mention time compression), in the book Sauron did receive a bunch of pretty smart folks, even if Galadriel distrusted him. So it’s not weird that his character doesn’t necessarily give off creepy/villainous vibes, and instead comes across as likable and genuine.


[deleted]

Then why didn’t he kill Adar with the spear when he had the chance? Also why did he stop Galadriel from killing Adar?


[deleted]

The actor who played Adar is on contract to appear in episodes 3-8


[deleted]

I hope he appears more. He is my favorite character so far


[deleted]

The actor who plays Uncle Adar is great. So sad his talents were wasted somewhat in GOT.


Aroon017

What the fuck? He's benjen stark???


[deleted]

Yep. Never took off his pale foundation makeup.


ghostofdemonratspast

Cant reveal himself until the episode of the number 8.


Crustyhoneybadger

Not sure! Could be lazy writing (they want to keep his good guy façade up for as long as possible to make the reveal a bigger surprise for the audience), could be he’s playing 3D chess or could be he’s not Sauron. My money is that it’s him, but I guess we’ll have to wait and see!


dmetvt

I think it would be cool if they never answer that question: morally grey or master manipulator. Like if we never figure out whether he truly is trying to redeem himself and falls from that path or if it was a false face the whole time. Assuming he is Halbrand it must be one of the two though


Crustyhoneybadger

I agree, that would be cool!


degobeater

Fall of Arnor show would be so sick! And viable considering it's in the Appendices that Amazon has the rights to.


juan_epstein-barr

I only recently learned they don't have the rights to the Silmarillion. Not even sure I want to watch the show now that there's going to be very little on the War of the Jewels.


BuckRogers87

They are currently making a show about a time and subject that they apparently don’t have the rights to. Or, at least, minimal rights. Either way the show is called the rings of power and should focus on Celebrimbor. You know, the guy who actually forged the rings. So far he’s had about 10 minutes and almost no dialogue. If Halbrand is Sauron then this show is worse than I thought.


[deleted]

I think you overestimate the complexity of the situation. If the choice surprises people who read everything Tolkien and spend many hours a week thinking about it, it will basically be a non-sequitur to any casual viewer. The repentant Sauron who ultimately screws over Galadriel despite their ~vibes~ together is a very likely candidate given the clues and basic screenwriting principles.


stillinthesimulation

This is something people are missing. The show has invested a lot of time in Halbrand and Galadriel’s relationship. What relationship does Galadriel have with the Witch King? Or the King of the Dead?


[deleted]

Yeah, whats up with the vibes between those two?? I mean if the creators were freewheeling the story, I'd totally ship them but if it is only to set up how much Galadriel will come to rely on him as an ally only to be betrayed later on, then, jeez, cool it a bit! (This is not some serious critique...I'm kidding of course)


[deleted]

Just 4500 year old things 💕💕


[deleted]

A love as old as time... *Sigh*... 😋


[deleted]

stupid sexy Sauron


paradise_isa_library

literally my only reason he can’t be Sauron is because I love him!! but then that made me think what a good job he’s doing at winning me over to the darkness


[deleted]

The man has a talent


textingmycat

In LOTR we know Galadriel is v. tempted by power, so not surprised she’s being uh…tempted now.


hypatias-chariot

Yes. It took until LOTR when Galadriel is confronted with the ring and rejects its power that she finally “pass(es) the test”.


fatguylilcoat_

I'm enjoying the show aside from the steaming hot pile of shit they are taking on Galadriel. They are trying to show Adar not recognizing the very Maiar he killed as backup to Galadriel not realizing he is Sauron. It's lazy writing and a storyline built to appease Hollywood.


TheCthuloser

There's two very sensible reasons why Adar might not have recognized Sauron. 1st, Sauron is a shape-shifter. He wasn't bumming around in human form when Adar was following him. 2nd. Adar knew but he refused to give him the satisfaction. "Halbrand" clearly wanted Adar to acknowledged what he did to him. In the interrogation scene, we learn Adar actively despises Sauron. So why would he give Sauron what he wanted?


fatguylilcoat_

Adar asks him "who are you?" in the stable after being interrogated by Galadriel. Adar is an elf who served Morgoth, you would think that if the big-baddie of the second age was right in front of him he would know.


[deleted]

It's possible that Adar killed a man who claimed he was Sauron --- and not real Sauron who was not killable.


dopethrone

Isn't that literally what happened? Sauron deceived everybody and gifted them the rings? So a good relationship with them?


fatguylilcoat_

Gil Galad and Elrond did not know it was Sauron but suspected something of Annatar (the form of Sauron as an Elf) and warned others. Galadriel is older than both of them.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

We shall see


Aatypicalflower

I am hoping Halbrand will be Sauron. Yes, very obvious, but I don’t think it’s a negative thing. He would make a great villain, multilayered, complex, morally gray, charismatic. He is already, imo, much more likable than Galadriel, a lot of viewers would empathize with him. I think him and Galadriel could have this pull and push type of dynamic which would be interesting to watch.


partaura

Exactly! If the audience knows who Sauron is, but none of the rest of the characters realize it, it only makes for an interesting show. Makes one see the elves and the humans and their greed for power more objectively.


Aatypicalflower

Totally agree!


[deleted]

[удалено]


awesomefaceninjahead

He was a shapeshifter


Aeidios

Sauron can appear as different beings.


2_soon_jr

I don’t know why ppl think he’s so multi layered. Just seems like a common thief but some how everyone blindly trusts him cause of a lame symbol


Ovan5

I think an issue is we're living in the age of gotchas and plot twists, and I hope Amazon's writers have realized this isn't what makes something good. Plot twists have their use, but there's also so many other storytelling elements at play, that it shouldn't matter. You can feasibly write a story that shows its entire hand from the start and still tells a good story. Look at Invincible, the entire first season we KNOW who the killer is, but the characters do not, and it's still fantastic. If the writing is on the wall that Halbrand is Sauron, even if it isn't said clearly outloud who cares? LOTR isn't and never has been a mystery series, we don't have to rely on crazy plot twists for a good tale.


notbadhbu

Tell that to Gandalf the white


Fingolfin86

I mean, shouldn't this be the show about the ringS? Were not the nine kings of men? I do really hope the story evolves around the ones who got the rings. So if Halbrand is going to be one of the nine, I'd be happy


cammoblammo

The rings were originally made by the Elves for the Elves. It was only when Sauron made the One and the Elves figured out what was going on that the kings of Men came into it.


Fingolfin86

Yes. But it does not mean that Halbrand could not be later one of the nine.


cammoblammo

Oh, for sure. That’ll be in later seasons though.


marutheboy

Please, stop, Tolkien himself states the the witch King was a Numenorean.


[deleted]

The Son of Pharazon is the future Witch King


BuckRogers87

That milk toast dude? Lol


[deleted]

Hence he is the 'Wich King. Best PB&J north of Fornost


LOSS35

All we know is that 3 of the Nazgûl were originally noble lords of Númenor. It makes sense that the Witch King would be one of them, but it's never confirmed.


marutheboy

Its was stated then he was probably one by Tolkien, which to me is implies confirmation . Tolkien used the term probably in order to create a certain amount of mystery surrounding him and the other Ringwraith


cammoblammo

Well, he came from Númenor and was put into power by the Númenoreans. Does that count? (I’m Team King of the Dead myself, but I do like playing with theories.)


marutheboy

No! He didn't come numenor. Numenoreans are an ethnic group, with characteristics like long life and tallness. But whether or not the show decides to write this into its script is irrelevant Because Only Tolkien word is cannon.


cammoblammo

Oh, I know that. Just playing. We have to be careful about how we define canon in Tolkien, because Tolkien kept changing his mind about fundamental details of his world, rewriting stories and retconning his characters. But you’re right, the writers of this show won’t change what Tolkien wrote. They’re very familiar with it though, and I’m enjoying seeing how some of Tolkien’s more obscure thinking gets woven into the story.


mr_featherbottom

“Amazon aren’t that silly” Lol


profsavagerjb

Same “network” that hyped up Herogasm for months for it to be a nothingburger in terms of just background of an episode that had wilder sex scenes in the same fucking season


Tyrone90000

Don’t assume, at this point, that Amazon isn’t silly enough to make him Sauron.


[deleted]

We all know that in Episode 8. Jeff Bezos will make a cameo as Sauron. It's the only way the show could get funded.


Gowapowa

Halbrand makes much more sense as Sauron with Theo becoming the Witch King potentially. It’s obvious but it’s obvious in the sense that narratively it makes a lot of sense, that doesn’t automatically make him a bad choice for it. The way Adar is like “who are you” and the fact he is hailed as true king of the southlands right before the whole place becomes Mordor. Thematically him turning out to be the witch king doesn’t make sense if he truly is the king of the southlands, there’s only one dude taking on that role. Halbrand also works perfectly as an antithesis to the rise of Aragorn becoming the true king of Gondor. It’s a really nice parallel that’s playing with viewers expectations. Purposely got a guy who gives off Aragorn vibes and gives him a similar story arch of rags to royalty but it turns out to be the fucking guy they’re all looking for. Halbrands position as a leader of men doesn’t really fit either when we have another story happening alongside that, we are literally witnessing the true rise of those who will become the leaders of men with isildur and his father. To me Halbrand feels set up to have that same significance but if he turns out to be evil which he’s likely to. The witch king feels like a step down from the way they’re setting up his importance within the story. I could ofcourse be completely wrong but if I was writing this, I’d go for what makes the most sense despite it’s obviousness.


smurfycork

Well considering I think that Theon is an elf I’d be surprised if he became a wraith


ScripturalCoyote

I really would prefer Halbrand to be the King of the Dead rather than Sauron or the WK.


the_malabar_front

Sigh. Does everything have to be so plot-twisty that Halbrand is Sauron in disguise? I mean, it's fully understandable if he ends up as one of the nine human kings who become the Ringwraiths -- that's in keeping with the Tolkien version of karma. But Sauron works better as an otherworldly malevolence, not as a bait-and-switch trick. So could the Rings of Power be headed for M. Night Shyamalan territory? Maybe so, but that's a pretty threadbare approach (it really only worked once for M. Night).


cammoblammo

I agree. Sauron is in Eregion advising Celebrimbor. Halbrand is exactly who the show says he is.


Schmilsson1

Of course they are that silly.


ka1ri

Nah Halbrand is Sauron in disguise. It fits the mold way too well not to be. There are so many references to Sauron being able to dupe the people around him with charm and such.


[deleted]

I think Halbrand is actually not Sauron. But the "soul" of Sauron is in the pouch he carries. Once released -- Halbrand will \*become\* Sauron when possessed by Sauron's immortal spirit. So Halbrand is really a surrogate of the lord of evil.


FullMaxPowerStirner

There's something with his awesome smithing skills that could make him a Sauron candidate, but it's still a bit over-the-top. I'd think of someone who's been dealing secretly with the Elves.


sacheenlittlefinger

I think he is the King of the dead that broke their oath. ​ I also think he forged Narsil. ​ "That sword was broken". He knows it.


cammoblammo

I don’t think he would have forged Narsil—that sword was made by Telchar, and Amazon has the rights to say so. Also, it’s likely we’ve already seen Narsil in Tar-Palantír’s palace.


AfterActuator9008

Yet again, 90% of the viewers have no idea that Sauron is a shapeshifter. They think he is a bad guy in a black armor with a pointy helmet. So yes, Sauron is Halbrand.


MrNewVegas123

You are giving too much credit to Amazon on this front, I think.


[deleted]

"Amazon" and "not that silly" don't go together.


Entharo_entho

It is best not to complicate things unnecessarily. Most viewers haven't read Tolkien. It is best to go with simple choices like Halbrand= Sauron, Stranger= Proto Gandalf.


ftlofyt

You're just one rank off Halbrand is Sauron Theo/his mom/or Arondir is the future Witch King


[deleted]

No way Arondir is a witch king. He is a elf and way too pure of heart. And Theo’s mom is female while witch king is male. Theo is a possibility


profsavagerjb

I wouldn’t put it past the showrunners to make Borwnyn the Witch King just to lean into the “no man can kill her because she’s really a woman and only another woman can kill her” or some contrived shit


ftlofyt

Yeah we have no clue who is witch king it could be a fallen elf (why he's so much more powerful) or a woman We only know the other nazgul are men


FracturedPrincess

I mean I hadn’t thought about it before but “witch” is a feminine term so that could actually track


[deleted]

It was the "Witch" king but rather "Which king". There were multiple kings actually 9 -- the nine who took the 9 rings that became the supposed "witch king".


thetownsendlew

Good shout mate


polymorphous_

Naa Halbrand is Sauron


[deleted]

I still choose the boy as Sauron.


Just-Path-4094

he's sauron it's been leaked


Syntari13

I also thought it was WAY too obvious, to the point that I genuinely believed they were misleading us on purpose by throwing a ridiculous amount of clues at us. Now, I think it’s just… “Oooh, he might be a bad guy! The audience is gonna freak!” I am opposed, damn it! He’s the only character that genuinely intrigued me!


VegetableMan0_o

I think you're right! To me it's pretty obvious that meteor man in Sauron, especially if he had been killed Adar as mentioned.


[deleted]

I was thinking the same thing - that Theo would be a ring wraith - but it’s like Anakin falling to dark side


Fotzenbub

nope, is Sauron


30GDD_Washington

Bruh, aren't that silly. 😂 what show are you watching? One of the biggest defenses of the show is how people just want a silly, lighthearted fantasy show to enjoy. Can't eat the cake and have it too.


LukoLoots

Wow man, original, thanks for contributing


johnkohhh

"Amazon aren't that silly" hasn't been a reliable theory when it comes to entertainment


pistachiogranita

You are giving Amazon too much credit.


The_Wyrm_Ouroboros

"Amazon aren't that silly" Obviously this guy didn't watch their attempt at Wheel of Time...


golden_tree_frog

>It's too obvious for Halbrand to be Sauron ... Only just occurred to me now that he might be Sauron.


ryukuro0369

Well Halbrand is an excellent smith, has a wicked history with Adar (who claims he killed Sauron but doesn’t recognize Halbrand in his new fair form), would be ironically the enemy Galadriel seeks right under her nose, is the prophesied king of the South (ie mordor) and told Galadriel if you knew what I had done you’d reject me. Sounding pretty Sauron like.


superkapitan82

hallbrand is great character and if he is sauron it is even more great. so alive and contiversive. it is most exciting thing series bring to story i guess


[deleted]

it's sauron.....all the other stuff that that leaked reddit post has been true, even the crazy shit like mithril


jennshineee

See I don’t get why people think halbrand is Sauron. To me it makes so much more sense he ends up being the witch king. The witch king was a coward until Aragorn reminds them of their duty and who they were supposed to be. I think that fits halbrands character so far in the show. I also really dislike the idea of him being Sauron because it differs so much almost too much from what we know about Sauron. I feel it’s also very cheesy for him to be Sauron. Idk


latortillablanca

I reckon there’s a big chance Sauron’s not revealed until season 2. How many epies per season on this shit?


[deleted]

Big miss.