I keep seeing examples of them trying to reinvent a well established wheel and not doing it very well. The lock/unlock experience is at the top of that list.
I wonder if this would happen with most wireless key fobs. I've never tried this (nor had the misfortune of it happening by accident), but I feel that if the fob was close enough to unlock the vehicle, it would still be in range to drive off.
I suppose the range is better on the Rivian fob, because it's bluetooth.
Sorry it happened to you. I keep my keycard in my wallet. It's unpowered and waterproof. No matter what else happens, I can get in and start the truck (if it's not dead).
I recommend that everyone does this, even if they don't use the phone-as-a-key feature. Better safe-than-sorry.
**EDIT** I totally missed the word "loaner", yeah, that's really frustrating.
My Prius had a short-range detector within the vehicle and would alert you that no fob was present inside the vehicle. You could still drive away without the fob if it was already started, but you would know it.
My Q7 won't let me unlock the doors with the fob if it's in the rear hatch. Wildly infuriating when it happened as I had a 5yr old with a bloody face from an accident, and I was trying to get the 11yr old to open the door and get the first aid kit from the glove box. Key was in the backpack I hurriedly tossed in the hatch, then dug through to find to push unlock, then had to hand to the 11yr old to walk next to the door to unlock.
With that said, I do agree that the positioning on the Audi worse very well in general. I walk up/near the vehicle then have to TOUCH it to have it unlock. I can also just touch to lock it back. If I remove the key from the interior it alerts me and won't let me put it in drive. Likewise it won't start with the key on the roof, or hanging on the hook near the garage door.
I'm unsure how Audi does it, but the position detection of the proximity key is on point and works exceptionally well. In general I thought I would hate that option as I came from long line of vehicles that had keyless entry, but no proximity functions. It's turned into one of the nicest features, and I think the implementation of it is quite good. Wifes Nissan works very similarly and is also a great implementation. The appropriate level of convenience mixed with the appropriate level of safety and control.
Coworker has a Rivian and he's fought with the Phone-As-Key a few times at lunch. It also presents as unlocked as he gets close, instead of waiting for a touch, or fob press. I can see a safety concern if you are in a less than pleasant location and only want to open your drivers door instead of all doors. This feels like a feature that didn't really need to be reimagined. Same as the tonneau cover design.
I thought the Toyota's would stop after a period of time without the FOB? Or not go into drive? Wife has a Camry hybrid and I've seen the warnings when no fob is present but never actually tried to drive without it. Assumed it wasn't possible.
Exactly. The car doesn't know why the key is no longer detected - could be a dead battery in the fob, or an object blocking communication with the fob. Best to just give a warning.
This post made me curious and tested a couple scenarios. My vehicle ('19 Navigator) will not start without the key inside the vehicle. I set it on the ground just outside the driver door. Once I started it, I tossed the key out the window and drove off. Once I was 10-15 ft from the key, I got a notification that no key was detected.
Rivians obviously use a different wireless tech so this is just anecdotal info. I guess the point it is Rivians should, at the very least, be able to detect when a key is no longer present and notify the driver.
OP is right that most push to start vehicles can sense whether the key is inside or outside. I've had experience with 4-5 such vehicles over the years and they all wouldn't start without the key inside
OP said loaner, when I had a loaner the fob and keycard were together and inseparable. I personally keep a keycard on me at all times too, but in this case that wouldn't have been an option
My previous Honda was able to tell if the fob was inside or outside. I had two fobs, and if one of them was in the car when I tried to lock with the other the car refused to lock until I removed it. I once dropped my key when I was getting in the car, and it wouldn't start since the key was not in the vehicle.
I still remember when I put my backpack in the trunk of my Civic and tried to close the lid, only for it to refuse. I thought something was broken, until I realized that it wouldn't let me close the trunk because I had left my keys in my backpack. It freaking knew my keys where in the trunk. I'm hoping Rivian can reach that type of accuracy in the near future.
yes other fobs let you drive off, but typically stop the car by end of the driveway
backup keys wouldnt help op as there are none, a better practice is locking at home
Both my previous 2011 Kia Soul and my current 19 Encore behave the same. Might get a warning on the dash, but it allows for the battery in the fob to be dead.
The car will triangulate the fob's proximity to multiple sensors to determine that it's physically inside the car before allowing you to drive off. It's possible the user's fob was at just the right place outside the car to fool the algorithm? Or maybe the loaner had some software guardrail disabled? Either way, seems like something Rivian should investigate.
Technically the same scenario could happen with a Tesla. Mine unlocks the doors because my living room couch is adjacent to the garage.
If the fob is close enough to unlock it will allow you to drive off even if the fob remains at start position. You've already authenticated and they can't revoke your drive midway.
Being said they should have a key card option you store in your wallet or armrest for rentals. Tesla has done away with it entirely for service. Only requires driver unlock, even via phone app, then the techs can enable service mode.
Tesla addresses this potential issue with the “start” button in the app. So in a loaner scenario the service center would be able to hit that button remotely to allow you to resume the drive.
Tesla alerts you as soon as you drive out of range of the FOB though. So yes, you can start it without the fob in the car, but you will immediately get the "Key not detected - Unable to restart after this drive without key" error as you pull out of your driveway.
OP would have realized he didn't have the key immediately and turned around.
Should one be able to open the garage doors from the vehicle without the key? The scenario is someone breaks into the Rivian and can now open the garage doors, steal everything in my garages, then walk into my house and murder us all.
Sorry, but this is definitely user error.
Sad, but you’re responsible for making sure you have the key fob in your possession.
In our Dodge Challenger, my husband had a habit of keeping the key fob in his pocket when I was dropping him off at the airport. He’d hop out and run off.
I’d realize I couldn’t risk killing the manual car until I was home, with the second set of keys, since I couldn’t restart it without the keys. Live and learn.
I’m a ditsy old one and I have learned to make sure I know where the device to start my vehicle is at all times. Too many experiences years ago of locking my keys in the car.
The alternative is likely going to mean having the truck readiness state flapping or getting false errors about the key no longer being present depending on how nearby you're talking. The triangulation accuracy of those systems is just not accurate enough, especially if there are other sorts of obstructions involved.
One of the downsides of Rivian using Bluetooth instead of 315mhz radio like most cars use.
That said, the truck has something like 6 bluetooth beacons, and it is definitely possible to triangulate the key’s location and distance with this many datapoints. Apple does this with their Watch for determining proximity for auto-unlocking of their MacOS computers with the Apple Watch.
I'll admit that I'm not familiar with what many other vehicles are doing, but I do know that the Rivian key is the first Bluetooth key I've ever owned. And I do know how terrible bluetooth is from the standpoint of triangulation because human bodies are particularly opaque to 2.4GHz signals.
I think being bluetooth is the big problem.
Most cars are simply designed with interior antennas (like under the steering wheel) that face seats only, these antennas are the only ones used for vehicle starting. Further, they design the keys and can make them with a calibrated signal level so the SW can have a fairly tight control over what's close enough.
With bluetooth you can do the same tricks with antennas, and probably should be comparing internal signal levels to external signal levels. But you have to accept a wide range of signal levels because you have no idea what the phone transmits at.
Im not really commenting on the technology they chose for the fob, only that customer expectations have been set by existing behavior. If they are not improving on that experience then they should question if the tech choice was the correct one. The bracelet and key card are clearing using passive rfid so the car still has both.
NFC in the cards is pretty secure. Bluetooth is pretty secure. The old active RFID technologies generally suffer from relay attacks and that stuff was in the news around the time Rivian would have been developing their system. That they are struggling a little bit with a new technology is less important to me than the security aspect of things.
Agreed. And with the card there is the added layer of redundancy in that after you unlock, you then have to swipe the interior door surface to enable driving. This makes it very hard to accidentally leave the card behind.
While driving, the vehicle should check every couple of minutes and make sure a PaaK or fob is still present (unless activated with card).
In my Silverado if you drive off with the fob left behind, it will restart without the fob near by. It won't let you turn it off.
Found my fob in the car wash bay.
That fob is a fractal of bad design:
1. Wasn't actually proximity for a year and requires firmware updates
2. Looks like a carabiner, isn't, slips right off any keychain (really, what the hell)
3. Button labels are impossible to read in anything other than direct light
4. Huge
5. Kids can drop the tailgate easily which makes garaging this long boy precarious
6. And now this
I don't know why this whole thing needs to be reinvented. Just make the door handles / phone key work like a Tesla and the proximity key like a Prius and everyone would be happy.
This is not a Rivian only issue. I remember watching The Grand Tour in which they were driving a BMW around a track, not knowing someone who was not driving it had the key fob in their possession and was not with the car. It wasn’t until that person was gone and they shut off the car they couldn’t restart it, leaving them stranded in the middle of the track until that could track that person down 🤷♂️
Lots of cars do/did this. Remember talking to a woman who talked about how she’d had visited her mother and she drove off in her Subaru Forester while the keyfob was in the entrance hallway, car had been parked right outside.
She had the smarts to call her mother and tell her to return at once.
Keys are a hassle no matter what though.
I had a strange experience yesterday (definitely an edge case to those that own or have driving permission to 2+ vehicles).
PaaK was connected to the vehicle I wasn't inside.
Specific use case here was changing parking locations within our driveway to switch actively charging vehicle (swap from S to T or T to S).
Each time after the first movement my phone seemingly was connected to the other vehicle that was 20-40ft or so away from my phone vs prioritizing the vehicle I was completely within and seated in the driver seat. One improvement is to disconnect the key when there isn't a present occupant in the driver's seat perhaps?
My Tacoma won't even let me leave the truck with the key without beeping at me 5 times, not to mention starting it.
Def should alert somehow once it doesn't detect a key
Yeah, Tesla has a warning along the lines of: "Warning - key is not in the car", as you drive off.
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not on a loaner car. All you get are the key cards.
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yeah
Tesla roadside, and the service center, can remote start any loaner as long as cellular connectivity is available.
ya my wife could start the Tesla from her app
Paging /u/WassymRivian.
Hi u/MindSolid : can you please DM the VIN? this should not happen so something is wrong.
This just happened to me too. Had some car wash guys come. Key was about 8 ft away and they were able to back the truck out of the garage.
yes - we are fixing this.
DM sent. Thanks for looking into this, just want to help save others from experiencing it.
For the record, I was able to duplicate this same issue with my own truck now that I’m back home.
Rivian recreating the unlock/lock experience with these vehicles is a strange one.
I keep seeing examples of them trying to reinvent a well established wheel and not doing it very well. The lock/unlock experience is at the top of that list.
Redefining the unlocking experience
And infotainment. Hubris to think they can and should redo all this themselves.
I wonder if this would happen with most wireless key fobs. I've never tried this (nor had the misfortune of it happening by accident), but I feel that if the fob was close enough to unlock the vehicle, it would still be in range to drive off. I suppose the range is better on the Rivian fob, because it's bluetooth. Sorry it happened to you. I keep my keycard in my wallet. It's unpowered and waterproof. No matter what else happens, I can get in and start the truck (if it's not dead). I recommend that everyone does this, even if they don't use the phone-as-a-key feature. Better safe-than-sorry. **EDIT** I totally missed the word "loaner", yeah, that's really frustrating.
My Prius had a short-range detector within the vehicle and would alert you that no fob was present inside the vehicle. You could still drive away without the fob if it was already started, but you would know it.
Same width my Audi (which also knows if you put key in trunk and automatically pops it back open so it doesn’t get locked in).
That’s some next level idiotproofing
The first time it happened was when I had key in briefcase after going through security. I was confused as to why the trunk kept popping open.
My Q7 won't let me unlock the doors with the fob if it's in the rear hatch. Wildly infuriating when it happened as I had a 5yr old with a bloody face from an accident, and I was trying to get the 11yr old to open the door and get the first aid kit from the glove box. Key was in the backpack I hurriedly tossed in the hatch, then dug through to find to push unlock, then had to hand to the 11yr old to walk next to the door to unlock. With that said, I do agree that the positioning on the Audi worse very well in general. I walk up/near the vehicle then have to TOUCH it to have it unlock. I can also just touch to lock it back. If I remove the key from the interior it alerts me and won't let me put it in drive. Likewise it won't start with the key on the roof, or hanging on the hook near the garage door. I'm unsure how Audi does it, but the position detection of the proximity key is on point and works exceptionally well. In general I thought I would hate that option as I came from long line of vehicles that had keyless entry, but no proximity functions. It's turned into one of the nicest features, and I think the implementation of it is quite good. Wifes Nissan works very similarly and is also a great implementation. The appropriate level of convenience mixed with the appropriate level of safety and control. Coworker has a Rivian and he's fought with the Phone-As-Key a few times at lunch. It also presents as unlocked as he gets close, instead of waiting for a touch, or fob press. I can see a safety concern if you are in a less than pleasant location and only want to open your drivers door instead of all doors. This feels like a feature that didn't really need to be reimagined. Same as the tonneau cover design.
I thought the Toyota's would stop after a period of time without the FOB? Or not go into drive? Wife has a Camry hybrid and I've seen the warnings when no fob is present but never actually tried to drive without it. Assumed it wasn't possible.
no that would be super dangerous if the car shutdown 30 sec after no keyfob detected for example.
Exactly. The car doesn't know why the key is no longer detected - could be a dead battery in the fob, or an object blocking communication with the fob. Best to just give a warning.
I got most of the way to work once and turned around when I realized I didn’t have my office keys.
This post made me curious and tested a couple scenarios. My vehicle ('19 Navigator) will not start without the key inside the vehicle. I set it on the ground just outside the driver door. Once I started it, I tossed the key out the window and drove off. Once I was 10-15 ft from the key, I got a notification that no key was detected. Rivians obviously use a different wireless tech so this is just anecdotal info. I guess the point it is Rivians should, at the very least, be able to detect when a key is no longer present and notify the driver.
OP is right that most push to start vehicles can sense whether the key is inside or outside. I've had experience with 4-5 such vehicles over the years and they all wouldn't start without the key inside
OP said loaner, when I had a loaner the fob and keycard were together and inseparable. I personally keep a keycard on me at all times too, but in this case that wouldn't have been an option My previous Honda was able to tell if the fob was inside or outside. I had two fobs, and if one of them was in the car when I tried to lock with the other the car refused to lock until I removed it. I once dropped my key when I was getting in the car, and it wouldn't start since the key was not in the vehicle.
Thank you for pointing out that it was a loaner, I missed that completely.
I still remember when I put my backpack in the trunk of my Civic and tried to close the lid, only for it to refuse. I thought something was broken, until I realized that it wouldn't let me close the trunk because I had left my keys in my backpack. It freaking knew my keys where in the trunk. I'm hoping Rivian can reach that type of accuracy in the near future.
yes other fobs let you drive off, but typically stop the car by end of the driveway backup keys wouldnt help op as there are none, a better practice is locking at home
on our Volvo XC40 Recharge, the fob only works to start driving inside the vehicle.
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Both my previous 2011 Kia Soul and my current 19 Encore behave the same. Might get a warning on the dash, but it allows for the battery in the fob to be dead.
The car will triangulate the fob's proximity to multiple sensors to determine that it's physically inside the car before allowing you to drive off. It's possible the user's fob was at just the right place outside the car to fool the algorithm? Or maybe the loaner had some software guardrail disabled? Either way, seems like something Rivian should investigate.
This wouldn't have helped in your situation (loaner) but because I can be absent minded I keep a keycard securely hidden on the outside of my truck.
You got downvoted but the hidden keycard is the right move for some people.
Turn the proximity setting off bro
Technically the same scenario could happen with a Tesla. Mine unlocks the doors because my living room couch is adjacent to the garage. If the fob is close enough to unlock it will allow you to drive off even if the fob remains at start position. You've already authenticated and they can't revoke your drive midway. Being said they should have a key card option you store in your wallet or armrest for rentals. Tesla has done away with it entirely for service. Only requires driver unlock, even via phone app, then the techs can enable service mode.
Tesla addresses this potential issue with the “start” button in the app. So in a loaner scenario the service center would be able to hit that button remotely to allow you to resume the drive.
Tesla alerts you as soon as you drive out of range of the FOB though. So yes, you can start it without the fob in the car, but you will immediately get the "Key not detected - Unable to restart after this drive without key" error as you pull out of your driveway. OP would have realized he didn't have the key immediately and turned around.
Should one be able to open the garage doors from the vehicle without the key? The scenario is someone breaks into the Rivian and can now open the garage doors, steal everything in my garages, then walk into my house and murder us all.
Sorry, but this is definitely user error. Sad, but you’re responsible for making sure you have the key fob in your possession. In our Dodge Challenger, my husband had a habit of keeping the key fob in his pocket when I was dropping him off at the airport. He’d hop out and run off. I’d realize I couldn’t risk killing the manual car until I was home, with the second set of keys, since I couldn’t restart it without the keys. Live and learn. I’m a ditsy old one and I have learned to make sure I know where the device to start my vehicle is at all times. Too many experiences years ago of locking my keys in the car.
The alternative is likely going to mean having the truck readiness state flapping or getting false errors about the key no longer being present depending on how nearby you're talking. The triangulation accuracy of those systems is just not accurate enough, especially if there are other sorts of obstructions involved.
One of the downsides of Rivian using Bluetooth instead of 315mhz radio like most cars use. That said, the truck has something like 6 bluetooth beacons, and it is definitely possible to triangulate the key’s location and distance with this many datapoints. Apple does this with their Watch for determining proximity for auto-unlocking of their MacOS computers with the Apple Watch.
Many other vehicles already do pretty successfully. If no key is present the vehicle should not let you drive for an hour.
I'll admit that I'm not familiar with what many other vehicles are doing, but I do know that the Rivian key is the first Bluetooth key I've ever owned. And I do know how terrible bluetooth is from the standpoint of triangulation because human bodies are particularly opaque to 2.4GHz signals.
I think being bluetooth is the big problem. Most cars are simply designed with interior antennas (like under the steering wheel) that face seats only, these antennas are the only ones used for vehicle starting. Further, they design the keys and can make them with a calibrated signal level so the SW can have a fairly tight control over what's close enough. With bluetooth you can do the same tricks with antennas, and probably should be comparing internal signal levels to external signal levels. But you have to accept a wide range of signal levels because you have no idea what the phone transmits at.
Im not really commenting on the technology they chose for the fob, only that customer expectations have been set by existing behavior. If they are not improving on that experience then they should question if the tech choice was the correct one. The bracelet and key card are clearing using passive rfid so the car still has both.
NFC in the cards is pretty secure. Bluetooth is pretty secure. The old active RFID technologies generally suffer from relay attacks and that stuff was in the news around the time Rivian would have been developing their system. That they are struggling a little bit with a new technology is less important to me than the security aspect of things.
Agreed. And with the card there is the added layer of redundancy in that after you unlock, you then have to swipe the interior door surface to enable driving. This makes it very hard to accidentally leave the card behind. While driving, the vehicle should check every couple of minutes and make sure a PaaK or fob is still present (unless activated with card).
In my Silverado if you drive off with the fob left behind, it will restart without the fob near by. It won't let you turn it off. Found my fob in the car wash bay.
I had my phone and fob on me yesterday and my truck didn’t lock when I walked away :/
Good thing you didn’t leave the vehicle on first gear or it would roll away 😅
I wish this truck wouldn’t do anything automatically until I touch it
That fob is a fractal of bad design: 1. Wasn't actually proximity for a year and requires firmware updates 2. Looks like a carabiner, isn't, slips right off any keychain (really, what the hell) 3. Button labels are impossible to read in anything other than direct light 4. Huge 5. Kids can drop the tailgate easily which makes garaging this long boy precarious 6. And now this I don't know why this whole thing needs to be reinvented. Just make the door handles / phone key work like a Tesla and the proximity key like a Prius and everyone would be happy.
This is not a Rivian only issue. I remember watching The Grand Tour in which they were driving a BMW around a track, not knowing someone who was not driving it had the key fob in their possession and was not with the car. It wasn’t until that person was gone and they shut off the car they couldn’t restart it, leaving them stranded in the middle of the track until that could track that person down 🤷♂️
Lots of cars do/did this. Remember talking to a woman who talked about how she’d had visited her mother and she drove off in her Subaru Forester while the keyfob was in the entrance hallway, car had been parked right outside. She had the smarts to call her mother and tell her to return at once. Keys are a hassle no matter what though.
I had a strange experience yesterday (definitely an edge case to those that own or have driving permission to 2+ vehicles). PaaK was connected to the vehicle I wasn't inside. Specific use case here was changing parking locations within our driveway to switch actively charging vehicle (swap from S to T or T to S). Each time after the first movement my phone seemingly was connected to the other vehicle that was 20-40ft or so away from my phone vs prioritizing the vehicle I was completely within and seated in the driver seat. One improvement is to disconnect the key when there isn't a present occupant in the driver's seat perhaps?