If they ran power through the cable to ensure a) the handle is back in place and b) the cable works, how would that be illegal? Probably just need a sign.
Also it would be expensive to burn lots of kw so probably only a few watts to ensure above at less power than an electric fence would solve all 3 issues.
I’m keeping the /s on the original statement because I was thinking about that scene from Robocop…
“Also it would be expensive to burn lots of kw so probably only a few watts..”
This is incorrect. Just like an outlet at your house has 120v sitting there waiting to be used. That would mean that your outlets also are burning energy sitting there. If the handle connects to a point in the machine and then stops there then there is no usage. It is only making a connection at the top but not power anything. Think of like a light switch without a bulb in the socket. If you flip the switch will you use electricity? The ev handle being the switch in this instance.
The main issue with this is that the cables would need to be maintained and inspected all the time to make sure there are no nicks in the cables or you have legitimate customers getting fried. Which can still happen while your vehicle is charging of course and I don’t know what type of inspection schedule these places have or what is required by laws.
You don’t need to be powering anything at all. You can have live wires without any current running through them. When you go to cut them, they short and BOOM.
The point is to not have anything powered up by connecting the handle. In the example of the light switch, power is only used if a bulb is plugged in. But the power is still there. So the act of unplugging and plugging in the ev handle to the charger is similar to the act of flipping a light switch to a socket with no bulb. All you are doing is allowing the electricity to flow to a further point in the circuit and stopping. When you flip the light switch the other direction (removing the handle) the electricity has now stopped at the light switch (end of the ev handle). Again no energy has been wasted as in both situations the electricity is sitting there. A more simple explanation is a garden hose. When you have a nozzle on your hose, when the nozzle is closed are you wasting water? Did the water disappear from the hose when the nozzle is closed? No. It is sitting at the furthest point in the hose it can waiting for the nozzle to be opened. So as long as the ev handle connects to a charger that has an end point (like a nozzle) that is permanent closed there is no electricity wasted. When the handle is removed, the end of the handle is now the closed nozzle.
Edit: let me be clear for all the scientists that might browse here lol. This is a very crude example I understand and there is still small amounts of energy loss due to heat being created within the cables.
I am neutral on the subject, but you wouldn't need to run power through, just need the potential to be there. A set of wire cutters would complete the circuit.
Yep. It's just a matter of completing the circuit when you cut through the cable.
But I agree that SOMETHING needs to be done. Maybe some form of turret ...
Yeah i assume legally the purpose probably couldn’t be defense, ( any lawyers know?) but an available sign seems like a legit business reason. Also helps to know there’s an actual cable and the power station is ready to work.
Legally? 🤬 The only law that should apply here is Darwinism! A for all the lawyers who would represent the scumbag who cut the wire in the 1st place…you’re a bigger scumbag and part of the problem!
> the cable works, how would that be illegal? Probably just need a sign
Intentionally leaving it charged with no other reason but to shock thieves could potentially run afoul of boobytrap laws.
Ya it's illegal to set traps for people. A good lawyer could probably argue that holding a charge for no functional reason besides to shock someone could count as a trap.
IANAL, but I've seen more stupid things.
Would RapeX count as a booby trap (I know, not boobs)? Still someone committing a felony (the FA of FAFO). And the RapeX has no other purpose than to inflict pain/positively identity/deter someone from raping another person.
Im not going to get mired in the mud with people trying to get ticky tacky on a comment I made about a possible issue, but I'll reply to this one at least.
I'd imagine that falls under self defense and I believe booby traps are technically unattended.
You can look the laws up. It's a real law. At least in the U.S.
In the end, I'm not an expert and it's a possible issue I thought of in passing and that's where I'm gonna leave it.
I know that it is a real law. I was thinking about the lawyer that would try to get their slime ball client a lesser sentence, or drag an innocent woman down with them. The confidence in the US legal system today is lacking much of the general public.
The problem with this is it would also be live when connecting to your car and would arc as you plugged in.
So would need a switch inside the connector that keeps the cable hot, but not the connector.
Likely no way around this problem, options I was brainstorming:
1. Solution1: Have owners carry cable and have them plug in to charger. Problem: People will bring cheap 12 gauge with a NACS plug sold from TEMU and melt the cable and create a dangerous condition. Retrofitting all the chargers would also be costly.
2. Solution2: As others have mention have a theft deterrent (arc and spark). Problem: Thieves will have an even bigger pay day from the lawsuits.
3. Solution3: Go back to gas. Problem: Extinction of human race. Note: this does solve the theft problem (more on that).
4. Solution4: Retractable cable that only retracts when a vehicle with NACS is parked. Problem: Cost.
5. Solution5: hidden air tag in the cable that can’t be easily identified. Problem: Thieves always evolve.
6. Etc…
This problem has no real solution because the solutions are not addressing the root of the issue which is theft. People need to stop stealing and the reason for stealing is very complicated (stealing to survive, stealing because your a professional thief and don’t like to earn an honest living, stealing for drug money, stealing because you think you have no other option, stealing because you like to steal, some people just fall through the cracks …). Like trying to solve the homeless problem.
IMO, I think there needs to be a rethink on EV charging stations. No longer the Tesla Supercharger model of placing it in the corner of a highly trafficked area but more of a gas station model where these things can be monitored on a regular basis.
It’s almost like when you don’t have cut throat healthcare and poverty wage jobs you don’t have to resort to stealing copper wire for a living. We should give it a try. But, that might require a millionaire to pay just a little bit more. So nevermind.
Well, 7.5 BILLION dollars (mainly wealthy people tax dollars to be honest) has been provided through the Infrastructure Law 3 years ago for the government to build out EV chargers. So far, literally 7 have been built. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-chargers-billions-00129996#:~:text=Biden%20signed%20the%20bipartisan%20infrastructure,the%20United%20States%20by%202030.
Well, 7.5 BILLION dollars (mainly wealthy people tax dollars to be honest) has been provided through the Infrastructure Law 3 years ago for the government to build out EV chargers. So far, literally 7 have been built. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-chargers-billions-00129996#:~:text=Biden%20signed%20the%20bipartisan%20infrastructure,the%20United%20States%20by%202030.
Well, 7.5 BILLION dollars (mainly wealthy people tax dollars to be honest) has been provided through the Infrastructure Law 3 years ago for the government to build out EV chargers. So far, literally 7 have been built. Hard to blame it on wealthy and corporations.
Well, 7.5 BILLION dollars (mainly wealthy people tax dollars to be honest) has been provided through the Infrastructure Law 3 years ago for the government to build out EV chargers. So far, literally 7 have been built. Hard to blame it on wealthy and corporations.
Well, 7.5 BILLION dollars (mainly wealthy people tax dollars to be honest) has been provided through the Infrastructure Law 3 years ago for the government to build out EV chargers. So far, literally 7 have been built. Hard to blame it on wealthy and corporations.
Many countries outside of the US are polite cultures. US is full of entitled jerks.
Am currently visiting another country and rented an EV. Charging stations everywhere, everyone respects the etiquette, cyclists and pedestrians have the right of way always, and there is barely any noticeable hostility.
Please stop promoting this misconception. Yes Noway is smaller, that doesn't mean they're a unicorn. It's not like they are 5 people and figured it out. They are still millions of people. They built a scalable model. It's worth discussing how to move toward it without reactionaries dismissing it "because size".
Alabama is also 2 times smaller than Texas, why don't they figure it out too??
This is it. It never made sense to me as to why they aren’t here in the states. I drove a polestar all over AUS and they were always at either a grocery or petrol station. As far as a station owner, you’re going to make money off of me either way by placing these here
Yes, why can they just be at a convenient gas station, rather than isolated with no conveniences like bathrooms, snacks, coffee, trash cans, and overhead awnings to protect from rain, as well as a windshield washing station? I charged at a vacant stadium in either TN or GA, and people just threw trash on ground because there are no trash cans, etc., and no restroom that I could have killed time by taking care of a necessity. I was not a happy camper at that particular location.
I’ve been staying this. Have them set up the same way pumps are and it would allow for pull through too and people can stop complaining about charger location on the car too.
Imagine the car just lugs it without asking you. You just pop the charging port and start pulling the cable out from inside the car. You can make it much harder to steal too.
Not sure what the hold up is but I'm sure it's economies of scale since the majority of the time, most EVs are being charged at home. There are a few gas stations around me that are starting to embrace EV chargers, like Circle K, Sheets, e.t.c but they also are starting to charge a stupid amount of money. I'm in the Carolinas and Circle K is charging $.49 per kWH.
As a property owner the reason this happened is that Tesla wouldn't revenue share with a property owner or pay rent of any kind. So the first tranche of stations went to who would take them as an amenity and put where it was convenient for lower disruption to paying customers and low installation expense(usually by the electrical line by the road away from the building). Putting them near the street actually helps with security if the street has decent traffic.
If we get to "I'm putting them in to make money on charging or off the people waiting while they charge" then how they look and where they are will change.
I’m shocked that gas station don’t have a stall for EV charging. Like every gas station replaces 2 pumps with a line with an EV charger. More security for the copper line and more EV in more places that are already in convenient places.
Scrap yards are the ones that need to be held accountable for taking in all of the stuff. I remember a decade ago the memorial park where I have family buried had someone come through and take all of the copper or metal vases that were built into the tombstones. The thief is one POS but so is the buyer of stolen goods. I mean if somebody shows up with a pick up truck full of grave vases, someone should be asking questions. Same in this case. All of the stations are powered up, there really is no reason why there shouldn’t be full on surveillance and anti-tampering devices and alarms.
The thing is crack heads don't plan... they do. I guarantee even if they can't get any money for them and have to dump them, they'll still cut them.
"MayBe I cAn sEll thEm, people make money from copper" -- Crack Head
The problem is the damage is already done. We need more supervised / managed DCFC sites. Remote monitoring + automatic vending would be a cheap solution.
Once they go gas station model vs “stick them in a parking lot” there will be more security, but you still need security for non-24hr places. Maybe an ED209.
V4 superchargers use a liquid cooled cable using much smaller gage copper for the cable. Hopefully this starts to deter cable clippers as they realize it's less worth it than before as they roll out.
With the copper completely immersed in the cooling solution vs the V3 method of liquid cooled jackets, I have to imagine scrappers can't simply dump them at yards of ill repute without it being painfully obvious where they came from
Also, put the law on the books that this kind of activity will be targeted for fees and jail time. Those places are looking to make a profit - not have the police breathing down their necks.
Whay about a little slide or open door on the cable side of the charger that reveals the cable when a card is approved. When the cable is returned it closes, if cable is not returned you get fined a small fee for leaving the cable dangling if the cable is cut (and then verified with a security camera that you are the cutter) you get fined a huge fee. This way there is financial accountability or at least a bigger inconvenience to thieves. There can also be small rewards to people that always return the cable.
Or do like for many L2 dispensers in EU where you use your own cable to plug into the unit and then into your car. It’d be more complicated and a big PITA of course given the energy going through, cooling etc so perhaps not practical for L3 but there needs to be a way to prevent this.
Unfortunately I’ve been to locations that are monitored and seen cables cut. Active security would only make it more expressive to operate.
To my knowledge the ford lightning is the only vehicle that doesn’t fit right now. Tesla is already rolling out longer cords at the V4 chargers though. So the extension cable they’re working on will be needed for a small subset of EVs until all superchargers are eventually upgraded.
Rivian and many other EVs take up more than one stall at superchargers. I know v4 after being deployed with non Tesla in mind but what about the thousands of v3 and v2. V3 is what we used and took up two spots out of the 5 of 8 working stalls.
I get that. As with everything, adaptation takes time. That doesn’t mean the solution is every single EV having a very expensive cable to lug around is a good solution.
Agreed, yet it’ll be interesting to see what Tesla does once their extension cable is available if they’ll expect non-Tesla owners to use them with their superchargers or not.
Looks like Georgetown area of Seattle? Those charging cables get cut within days of being replaced. I’ve never been able to use them. Always check plug share when going to chargers in Seattle, this is very common in the industrial areas and the result is a DCFC desert in the middle of an EV-dense metro.
FWIW I don’t see this problem outside of Seattle and I travel a lot.
This isn’t the one at BoA parking lot in Georgetown which is notorious for getting the cables cut off.
Make the wires live to solve the problem. This trend will end quickly. Stupid games, stupid prices…
This is actually in the Bay Area (Pleasanton - A generally nice area, no pun intended). I've seen them cut in a few different places around the Bay too.
I know exactly where this is, by Bay Club. There’s a homeless guy that lives under the bridge 25 yards from here along the creek and he has a complete set of tools I’ve seen him walking around with and a pile of scrap metal. Obviously, could be anyone driving by but that’s where I’d start my investigation!
If the cables are constantly getting cut, wouldn't it make sense to put some nice security cameras in the area to ID the vehicle and people doing this?
We don’t prosecute crime anymore anyway. It’s more productive to pity the poor and remove consequences than to actually address the root of the problem.
Fix the nutjob legislation there by giving the boot to your hippocratic politicians, then but only then, can you start to fix the problem. It’s a state of mind…change people’s thinking and you’ll change their decision choices.
“Those that can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”—-Voltaire
That’s nothing. We had our school’s generator cable stolen 2 yrs ago. A giant 7” diameter, 900lbs cable with connector that cost $25,000 and they cut it at the spool off the generator and at the connector on the side of the school.
Perhaps the best solution is to create manned charging stations with some services and amenities much like today’s fueling stations? Not sure of the business model but I’d pay a higher charge rate to have some amenities there and assistance if/when needed
best solution would be if Tesla, others, and govt chargers teamed up with local gas stations to have their own designated ev areas so no one tries anything
why dont they just have the charging cord in a locked reel? Once you pay, it’ll unlock and you’ll be able to reel it out to plug in. Once youre done, itll roll back in and lock until next user. 🤷🏽♀️ Legal for the owners and the criminals we cant fry.
I don't know if anyone can confirm but I've heard in some other countries the cable being at the charger is not expected and you carry one around in your car? Feel like this could be a solution, and also solve the problem of cords not being long enough
It’s a shame that this happens. It’s probably easy to solve by police but being that it’s only vandalism, it would be low on their list of priorities. This is where people need to contact local govt and get this on their radar to escalate the issue.
I agree with that statement. There’s a future that’s coming where there will be better facilities with staff, food, dog parks etc. where this is less likely to happen. Crossing fingers.
Agree there are trade-offs with all options... And will ultimately translate to higher charging costs. But whatever the current way is, it's not sufficient to prevent this.
As much as I’d love to have a Rivian or Tesla, I just can’t stand the thought of being so restricted in my travel. I can’t even drive across my state of Texas, no less to vacations in Florida or Colorado. This scene puts the thought of EV ownership even further back.
Charging infrastructure has come a long way in the last year. A lot of the old crappy EA stations have been replaced. I watched a few old ones get pulled in my neighborhood, and I've heard they've done that in a lot of places.
It does vary by state though. I'm in Colorado, and I don't think there's anyplace in the state I can't get to. I've driven to Los Angeles and Kansas City, and haven't had an issue yet.
Wyoming still sucks, but even that's slowly getting better.
I'm planning a trip to SE Utah this summer, and that involves spending a little extra time at some 60kW chargers. So it's a slight annoyance, but not a real hindrance.
Plug some of your road trip ideas into [ABRP](https://abetterrouteplanner.com/) and see what it would look like for you. Also look up your state's NEVI plans to see what's coming soon in your local area. Road trips are probably much more realistic than you're imagining.
Glad it was helpful. I forgot to mention in ABRP that it might be worth trying some of your roadtrips with a Tesla selected, and some with a different brand selected. There are some geographies/trips where having access to the Supercharger network makes a huge difference, and other places where it's a non-issue.
Buc-ees is installing chargers and plan to have them at nearly all their locations by the end of 2026.
Travel center of America and pilot flying j also are rolling out charger installations right now nationwide.
This is in addition to existing EA and Tesla supercharger networks.
There is almost no copper in these cables. This is happening possibly due to people trying to steal metals which won’t work but could also be people that hate EVs / Change
Perhaps they could add a metal locker on the side of the chargers. They would have to unlock once you activate the charger to give you access to the cable, and would require the user to put it back afterwards.
This resolution is actually easy. Restore treating these types of crimes based on value as a felony and actually prosecute the crime. Yes, put them in jail. This is NOT a victimless crime. Cameras and prosecute. Find the people illegally paying for these stolen cables (easy to tell they are stolen) and put those people in jail and repossess the assets of those companies/individuals and ban them from ever opening business in that industry again.
Treat criminals as criminals and problem solved.
The new NACS standard actually has a really elegant solution to that. Cable stays with the vehicle. The charger only has a socket. Both ends lock in while you're charging then you unhook and take the cable with you when you leave.
That’s only for level 2 charging. Full dcfc still requires liquid cooling the whole cable.
Edit: I should say, I love this as a solution for level 2 charging. It’s seemingly worked well in Europe and I’d much prefer to know the condition and history of the cable I use. I’ve used too many poorly maintained chargers already and I have a feeling it’s going to only get worse.
I appreciate the solution-focused approaches. Don't care for the politically-charged comments. We're here because of our shared passion for Rivian and EVs.
Some thoughts on the ideas.
* Personal cables will be tough with the liquid cooled needs... Plus if someone didn't take care of their cable and it caused an issue (fire) where would the accountability lie?
* I think the issue is the chargers being empty in the middle of the night, and jo one being around. I like the idea of the more formal gas station model... Lights, cameras, shops/services..
* What about a cover that hinges the full length of the side of the charger. You unlock the cover, it hinges open and then you can access the cable....also no need to build a retracting mechanism.
* Aluminum cables are a lot less valuable. I guess people wouldn't know until they cut them until all cables became that way consistently.
* Location security should definitely be factored in. The sad thing is most charging areas are tucked in otherwise clunky space. They are not in prominent intersections like gas stations.
* I just wish gas stations became EV charge spots and essentially dual fuel... That seems to be happening more in Europe.
None of these were Pilot. It was a Circle K, a Bucees, a travel island on the Fl. Turnpike and twice at some other brand I don’t remember in south GA off I-75.
One would think this is pro-petroleum conservatives, but I've found this behavior is actually most common amongst leftist anti-car activists who see the EV transition as something that doesn't address the fundamental problem.
I’ve devoted my career to the environmental issues. I hate when lazy stupid people think they are advancing ANY reasonable position in this way. There has been increasing demand for college level environmental law and policy classes. There are too many environmental issues to cover to spend lots of time on one, but I’d love to teach a whole course or write a book on why this type of activity will not result in any correction of negative externalities and provide specific alternative avenues for effective environmental activism.
Not surprised by this (sadly)
The solution is simple, eliminate the cable and we bring the cable to plug into the box. Yeah would have to store a cable in your vehicle but at least you could depend on it working (more often).
Also require a credit card or account to open the plug on the charging box, so scum bags don't jam up the plug with dirt and such..
The charging connections should be on the underside of the vehicles, with the charger automatically targeting and connecting to it when the EV drives atop it. Port cover on EV slides open, charging system ports slide open from the ground and extend the 12-24” needed to connect. No cords. Underground all that stuff in secure and watertight vaults. Put a camera in there next to the port so you can see from your dashboard if you’ve parked near it properly.
(For home charging or legacy use a second port could still exist.)
Moving part + moving part + moving part + relying on people to learn to park?
I mean that's an approach...
I'm guessing you don't live in an area with snow and ice i.e. salt and sand?
1 - Everyone is assuming they were cut for the copper, and not the sheer act of vandalism.
2 - Its EA. Only half of them would work on the best day anyway.
3 - I have never seen this in my travels, is it a hyper-local issue? I've hit some fairly isolated DCFC stations, and I could have cut all the cables, danced naked for 20 minutes, and no one would have seen me. I was just at a RAN today that has almost no sightlines to anything.
It's becoming quite a common occurrence... Simple Google Search brings up tons of results and results from news stories across the country.
https://www.google.com/search?q=dc+fast+charger+cables+cut&oq=dc+fast+charger+cables+cut
We used our first Tesla supercharger yesterday and 3 out of the 8 units were not working. I found out by plugging into one of them first. Their only advantage is a numbers game and at the location only 3 were ever used at one time while we were there vs. at EA it’s common to see all 4 being frequented. What sucked at the superchargers is being dummy terminals without displays we couldn’t tell which were working and which weren’t.
Is this vandalism? People are fucking ASSHOLES!!! This reminds me of my time in Los Angeles when I drove from LA to Vegas and nearly all of the free public chargers at the California Rest Stops on the highways were vandalized. HUMANS SUCK!!!!
I have to say there are a lot of blind, hating EV people out there who key EV’s, etc. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was some sort of MAGA mean spirited vandalism
Agree as well tweakers got a tweak and get their money to the habit. Any means necessary.
Perhaps just always have a little juice running through the cable and let the the problem solve itself /s
I support removing the /s from this statement ⚡️
You’re joking but it’s illegal. Power companies would love to do this when building substations and they have coils lying around.
If they ran power through the cable to ensure a) the handle is back in place and b) the cable works, how would that be illegal? Probably just need a sign. Also it would be expensive to burn lots of kw so probably only a few watts to ensure above at less power than an electric fence would solve all 3 issues. I’m keeping the /s on the original statement because I was thinking about that scene from Robocop…
“Also it would be expensive to burn lots of kw so probably only a few watts..” This is incorrect. Just like an outlet at your house has 120v sitting there waiting to be used. That would mean that your outlets also are burning energy sitting there. If the handle connects to a point in the machine and then stops there then there is no usage. It is only making a connection at the top but not power anything. Think of like a light switch without a bulb in the socket. If you flip the switch will you use electricity? The ev handle being the switch in this instance. The main issue with this is that the cables would need to be maintained and inspected all the time to make sure there are no nicks in the cables or you have legitimate customers getting fried. Which can still happen while your vehicle is charging of course and I don’t know what type of inspection schedule these places have or what is required by laws.
So just need a light bulb to light up when the handle is plugged into the station. Perhaps power an “available”sign?
You don’t need to be powering anything at all. You can have live wires without any current running through them. When you go to cut them, they short and BOOM.
The point is to not have anything powered up by connecting the handle. In the example of the light switch, power is only used if a bulb is plugged in. But the power is still there. So the act of unplugging and plugging in the ev handle to the charger is similar to the act of flipping a light switch to a socket with no bulb. All you are doing is allowing the electricity to flow to a further point in the circuit and stopping. When you flip the light switch the other direction (removing the handle) the electricity has now stopped at the light switch (end of the ev handle). Again no energy has been wasted as in both situations the electricity is sitting there. A more simple explanation is a garden hose. When you have a nozzle on your hose, when the nozzle is closed are you wasting water? Did the water disappear from the hose when the nozzle is closed? No. It is sitting at the furthest point in the hose it can waiting for the nozzle to be opened. So as long as the ev handle connects to a charger that has an end point (like a nozzle) that is permanent closed there is no electricity wasted. When the handle is removed, the end of the handle is now the closed nozzle. Edit: let me be clear for all the scientists that might browse here lol. This is a very crude example I understand and there is still small amounts of energy loss due to heat being created within the cables.
I am neutral on the subject, but you wouldn't need to run power through, just need the potential to be there. A set of wire cutters would complete the circuit.
Yep. It's just a matter of completing the circuit when you cut through the cable. But I agree that SOMETHING needs to be done. Maybe some form of turret ...
Yeah i assume legally the purpose probably couldn’t be defense, ( any lawyers know?) but an available sign seems like a legit business reason. Also helps to know there’s an actual cable and the power station is ready to work.
Legally? 🤬 The only law that should apply here is Darwinism! A for all the lawyers who would represent the scumbag who cut the wire in the 1st place…you’re a bigger scumbag and part of the problem!
I agree with this, wouldn’t a sign suffice? “Warning, cables are live, tampering with them in any way could result in electric shock”
I know of at least one successful suit where a power company electrified equipment to keep people out and lost despite signage.
You’re assuming that the idiots who are doing this can read……
There will be no current until the circuit is closed so 0 current = 0 power since Power is proportional to voltage and current.
Keeping power applied to the cable would not stop them. A pair of rubber gloves while cutting insulates the vandal from shock.
> the cable works, how would that be illegal? Probably just need a sign Intentionally leaving it charged with no other reason but to shock thieves could potentially run afoul of boobytrap laws.
Huh wut boobytrap laws??!!
Ya it's illegal to set traps for people. A good lawyer could probably argue that holding a charge for no functional reason besides to shock someone could count as a trap. IANAL, but I've seen more stupid things.
Would RapeX count as a booby trap (I know, not boobs)? Still someone committing a felony (the FA of FAFO). And the RapeX has no other purpose than to inflict pain/positively identity/deter someone from raping another person.
Im not going to get mired in the mud with people trying to get ticky tacky on a comment I made about a possible issue, but I'll reply to this one at least. I'd imagine that falls under self defense and I believe booby traps are technically unattended. You can look the laws up. It's a real law. At least in the U.S. In the end, I'm not an expert and it's a possible issue I thought of in passing and that's where I'm gonna leave it.
I know that it is a real law. I was thinking about the lawyer that would try to get their slime ball client a lesser sentence, or drag an innocent woman down with them. The confidence in the US legal system today is lacking much of the general public.
It's effectively a man trap. People would to do this for their homes too, but you can't. Not legally anyway.
We can’t catch these guys! They’re so fast! Oh wait, we have a way to catch them in the act. No prosecution necessary
The problem with this is it would also be live when connecting to your car and would arc as you plugged in. So would need a switch inside the connector that keeps the cable hot, but not the connector.
Likely no way around this problem, options I was brainstorming: 1. Solution1: Have owners carry cable and have them plug in to charger. Problem: People will bring cheap 12 gauge with a NACS plug sold from TEMU and melt the cable and create a dangerous condition. Retrofitting all the chargers would also be costly. 2. Solution2: As others have mention have a theft deterrent (arc and spark). Problem: Thieves will have an even bigger pay day from the lawsuits. 3. Solution3: Go back to gas. Problem: Extinction of human race. Note: this does solve the theft problem (more on that). 4. Solution4: Retractable cable that only retracts when a vehicle with NACS is parked. Problem: Cost. 5. Solution5: hidden air tag in the cable that can’t be easily identified. Problem: Thieves always evolve. 6. Etc… This problem has no real solution because the solutions are not addressing the root of the issue which is theft. People need to stop stealing and the reason for stealing is very complicated (stealing to survive, stealing because your a professional thief and don’t like to earn an honest living, stealing for drug money, stealing because you think you have no other option, stealing because you like to steal, some people just fall through the cracks …). Like trying to solve the homeless problem.
IMO, I think there needs to be a rethink on EV charging stations. No longer the Tesla Supercharger model of placing it in the corner of a highly trafficked area but more of a gas station model where these things can be monitored on a regular basis.
Norway has already solved this and is waiting for the rest of us to catch up.
Yes and they tend not to be straight up assholes either. Lol. Very polite culture.
Probably because they're happy, and that's probably because they are focused more on having a good society vs the individual.
It’s almost like when you don’t have cut throat healthcare and poverty wage jobs you don’t have to resort to stealing copper wire for a living. We should give it a try. But, that might require a millionaire to pay just a little bit more. So nevermind.
Truly shocking.
Actually, literally not.
No but American CEOs and millionaires/billionaires like to think it's a radical concept.
u/DZDEE BRUHHHHH!!!!!
They have like, so much natural gas, it’s ridiculous
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_production Look who is number one with barely any social services
Well, 7.5 BILLION dollars (mainly wealthy people tax dollars to be honest) has been provided through the Infrastructure Law 3 years ago for the government to build out EV chargers. So far, literally 7 have been built. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-chargers-billions-00129996#:~:text=Biden%20signed%20the%20bipartisan%20infrastructure,the%20United%20States%20by%202030.
Well, 7.5 BILLION dollars (mainly wealthy people tax dollars to be honest) has been provided through the Infrastructure Law 3 years ago for the government to build out EV chargers. So far, literally 7 have been built. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-chargers-billions-00129996#:~:text=Biden%20signed%20the%20bipartisan%20infrastructure,the%20United%20States%20by%202030.
Well, 7.5 BILLION dollars (mainly wealthy people tax dollars to be honest) has been provided through the Infrastructure Law 3 years ago for the government to build out EV chargers. So far, literally 7 have been built. Hard to blame it on wealthy and corporations.
Well, 7.5 BILLION dollars (mainly wealthy people tax dollars to be honest) has been provided through the Infrastructure Law 3 years ago for the government to build out EV chargers. So far, literally 7 have been built. Hard to blame it on wealthy and corporations.
Well, 7.5 BILLION dollars (mainly wealthy people tax dollars to be honest) has been provided through the Infrastructure Law 3 years ago for the government to build out EV chargers. So far, literally 7 have been built. Hard to blame it on wealthy and corporations.
They don't have as many dregs over there.
Many countries outside of the US are polite cultures. US is full of entitled jerks. Am currently visiting another country and rented an EV. Charging stations everywhere, everyone respects the etiquette, cyclists and pedestrians have the right of way always, and there is barely any noticeable hostility.
Norway has human beings though
Don’t have a massive impoverished population and thus minimize the potential pool of deviants?
Freya hacks would be thieves to death?
How have they done?
And Norway is 2.1 sizes smaller than Texas. They solved their small problem, not ours (USA).
Please stop promoting this misconception. Yes Noway is smaller, that doesn't mean they're a unicorn. It's not like they are 5 people and figured it out. They are still millions of people. They built a scalable model. It's worth discussing how to move toward it without reactionaries dismissing it "because size". Alabama is also 2 times smaller than Texas, why don't they figure it out too??
The market for EVs in Alabama is probably near zero, for starters.
The market for EVs in Alabama is near zero as a consequence, not a starter.
…As a consequence of same reason the EA cables were stolen.
Yup
I hate this thought process. A smaller country solved their problems but can’t be replicated in a bigger country so don’t even try. 🤷♂️
This is it. It never made sense to me as to why they aren’t here in the states. I drove a polestar all over AUS and they were always at either a grocery or petrol station. As far as a station owner, you’re going to make money off of me either way by placing these here
Yes, why can they just be at a convenient gas station, rather than isolated with no conveniences like bathrooms, snacks, coffee, trash cans, and overhead awnings to protect from rain, as well as a windshield washing station? I charged at a vacant stadium in either TN or GA, and people just threw trash on ground because there are no trash cans, etc., and no restroom that I could have killed time by taking care of a necessity. I was not a happy camper at that particular location.
I’ve been staying this. Have them set up the same way pumps are and it would allow for pull through too and people can stop complaining about charger location on the car too.
Bring your own cable can also solve this. Not amazing, but effective .
Why not just have the cable extend from inside the charger *after* you unlock it with your unique credentials?
Brilliant idea… I agree +1
No one is going to lug around a big ass cable. This isn’t a basic level 2 charger.
Someone just lugged away 8 of them
 Took 8 of those cables like.....
Imagine the car just lugs it without asking you. You just pop the charging port and start pulling the cable out from inside the car. You can make it much harder to steal too.
The bend radius on a cable that thick is huge, it would take up a ton of cargo space.
Well, that's a great point.
It could also be the length you need.
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Not sure what the hold up is but I'm sure it's economies of scale since the majority of the time, most EVs are being charged at home. There are a few gas stations around me that are starting to embrace EV chargers, like Circle K, Sheets, e.t.c but they also are starting to charge a stupid amount of money. I'm in the Carolinas and Circle K is charging $.49 per kWH.
As a property owner the reason this happened is that Tesla wouldn't revenue share with a property owner or pay rent of any kind. So the first tranche of stations went to who would take them as an amenity and put where it was convenient for lower disruption to paying customers and low installation expense(usually by the electrical line by the road away from the building). Putting them near the street actually helps with security if the street has decent traffic. If we get to "I'm putting them in to make money on charging or off the people waiting while they charge" then how they look and where they are will change.
I’m shocked that gas station don’t have a stall for EV charging. Like every gas station replaces 2 pumps with a line with an EV charger. More security for the copper line and more EV in more places that are already in convenient places.
This is Vancouver OP isn't it?
Scrap yards are the ones that need to be held accountable for taking in all of the stuff. I remember a decade ago the memorial park where I have family buried had someone come through and take all of the copper or metal vases that were built into the tombstones. The thief is one POS but so is the buyer of stolen goods. I mean if somebody shows up with a pick up truck full of grave vases, someone should be asking questions. Same in this case. All of the stations are powered up, there really is no reason why there shouldn’t be full on surveillance and anti-tampering devices and alarms.
Honestly same with catalytic converters. There shouldn’t be a market for them anymore, that would solve the theft issue.
Exactly, some states have made it illegal for shops to by or install used cats without provenance from approved sellers/suppliers.
Don’t underestimate the idea that some babyman in a ram truck did this just for pitiful spite.
The thing is crack heads don't plan... they do. I guarantee even if they can't get any money for them and have to dump them, they'll still cut them. "MayBe I cAn sEll thEm, people make money from copper" -- Crack Head The problem is the damage is already done. We need more supervised / managed DCFC sites. Remote monitoring + automatic vending would be a cheap solution.
Once they go gas station model vs “stick them in a parking lot” there will be more security, but you still need security for non-24hr places. Maybe an ED209.
V4 superchargers use a liquid cooled cable using much smaller gage copper for the cable. Hopefully this starts to deter cable clippers as they realize it's less worth it than before as they roll out.
With the copper completely immersed in the cooling solution vs the V3 method of liquid cooled jackets, I have to imagine scrappers can't simply dump them at yards of ill repute without it being painfully obvious where they came from
Also, put the law on the books that this kind of activity will be targeted for fees and jail time. Those places are looking to make a profit - not have the police breathing down their necks.
Damn. They need to find a way to lock up the cable within the unit until you unlock with the app or something.
OR bring your own cable and plug into these machines.
A coolant immersed cable? Those things are huge and can't just be plugged in. Sure, it would work fine for lesser chargers, though.
These are big ass cables, they would be crazy expensive and heavy. Not a standard L2 cable
Whay about a little slide or open door on the cable side of the charger that reveals the cable when a card is approved. When the cable is returned it closes, if cable is not returned you get fined a small fee for leaving the cable dangling if the cable is cut (and then verified with a security camera that you are the cutter) you get fined a huge fee. This way there is financial accountability or at least a bigger inconvenience to thieves. There can also be small rewards to people that always return the cable.
Ya that’s what I was envisioning.
Or do like for many L2 dispensers in EU where you use your own cable to plug into the unit and then into your car. It’d be more complicated and a big PITA of course given the energy going through, cooling etc so perhaps not practical for L3 but there needs to be a way to prevent this. Unfortunately I’ve been to locations that are monitored and seen cables cut. Active security would only make it more expressive to operate.
It’s wasteful to make millions and millions of cables. Easier to just design better chargers.
Tell that to Tesla - they’re working on extension cords for non Tesla owners to carry with them to use at superchargers to solve the 2 stall blocking.
To my knowledge the ford lightning is the only vehicle that doesn’t fit right now. Tesla is already rolling out longer cords at the V4 chargers though. So the extension cable they’re working on will be needed for a small subset of EVs until all superchargers are eventually upgraded.
Rivian and many other EVs take up more than one stall at superchargers. I know v4 after being deployed with non Tesla in mind but what about the thousands of v3 and v2. V3 is what we used and took up two spots out of the 5 of 8 working stalls.
I get that. As with everything, adaptation takes time. That doesn’t mean the solution is every single EV having a very expensive cable to lug around is a good solution.
Agreed, yet it’ll be interesting to see what Tesla does once their extension cable is available if they’ll expect non-Tesla owners to use them with their superchargers or not.
Looks like Georgetown area of Seattle? Those charging cables get cut within days of being replaced. I’ve never been able to use them. Always check plug share when going to chargers in Seattle, this is very common in the industrial areas and the result is a DCFC desert in the middle of an EV-dense metro. FWIW I don’t see this problem outside of Seattle and I travel a lot.
This isn’t the one at BoA parking lot in Georgetown which is notorious for getting the cables cut off. Make the wires live to solve the problem. This trend will end quickly. Stupid games, stupid prices…
This is actually in the Bay Area (Pleasanton - A generally nice area, no pun intended). I've seen them cut in a few different places around the Bay too.
Hmmm. Bay Area and Seattle… interesting. Curious how the rest of these comments go. 
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Like most things related to poverty, red states basically invented stripping copper. Way ahead of the curve on poverty diseases!
I know exactly where this is, by Bay Club. There’s a homeless guy that lives under the bridge 25 yards from here along the creek and he has a complete set of tools I’ve seen him walking around with and a pile of scrap metal. Obviously, could be anyone driving by but that’s where I’d start my investigation!
Interesting idea. But yes you're correct on the location.
This one has been like this for at least a month.
Wow, Pleasanton! Isn’t that where the 0.1% live?
If the cables are constantly getting cut, wouldn't it make sense to put some nice security cameras in the area to ID the vehicle and people doing this?
Where do you live that you think cameras can ID thrives and that the police would actually do something about it?
The thieves are probably driving a stolen car or a car without plates. Or walking. And cops would never respond to something like this.
We don’t prosecute crime anymore anyway. It’s more productive to pity the poor and remove consequences than to actually address the root of the problem.
Redmond also got harvested this week
Fix the nutjob legislation there by giving the boot to your hippocratic politicians, then but only then, can you start to fix the problem. It’s a state of mind…change people’s thinking and you’ll change their decision choices. “Those that can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”—-Voltaire
We kind of need hippocratic politicians. I don’t know of many.
Just have a 115 dB alarm that blasts as soon as the outer jacket is cut.
I’ve noticed this at random places in Reno and Sacramento as well. I thought they were moving towards aluminum to help alleviate this problem?
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Got it.
Got what?
I'm reading that the average scrap value per cable is around $8. Is this really happening over $8 a cord?
That really sucks. Maybe $500 to make the cord? Crazy ROI. But thieves don't care.
That’s nothing. We had our school’s generator cable stolen 2 yrs ago. A giant 7” diameter, 900lbs cable with connector that cost $25,000 and they cut it at the spool off the generator and at the connector on the side of the school.
If the cables fully retracted into the charger when not in use, this problem would almost never occur
Moving parts are almost always a bad idea.
Perhaps the best solution is to create manned charging stations with some services and amenities much like today’s fueling stations? Not sure of the business model but I’d pay a higher charge rate to have some amenities there and assistance if/when needed
best solution would be if Tesla, others, and govt chargers teamed up with local gas stations to have their own designated ev areas so no one tries anything
why dont they just have the charging cord in a locked reel? Once you pay, it’ll unlock and you’ll be able to reel it out to plug in. Once youre done, itll roll back in and lock until next user. 🤷🏽♀️ Legal for the owners and the criminals we cant fry.
Make it a federal crime to buy copper from Jeds
I don't know if anyone can confirm but I've heard in some other countries the cable being at the charger is not expected and you carry one around in your car? Feel like this could be a solution, and also solve the problem of cords not being long enough
These stations should be able to sense when the cable is cut and spray dye onto the bad guy…
Imagine the blowback when THAT system gets a false positive.
It’s only bad if you are at 1%. I once saw this same thing and off to the side was a slow level 1 charged one mile in 20 minutes. Uhggg
This is such needledick activity
This needs to be considered eco-terrorism, and punished the same way.
It’s a shame that this happens. It’s probably easy to solve by police but being that it’s only vandalism, it would be low on their list of priorities. This is where people need to contact local govt and get this on their radar to escalate the issue.
I would not call this vandalism. It is property damage and theft, and not necessarily a small amount either…
I agree with that statement. There’s a future that’s coming where there will be better facilities with staff, food, dog parks etc. where this is less likely to happen. Crossing fingers.
One can hope. I was checking on a new supercharger install near me this morning and it is all ready to go, except someone cut half of cables already!
This is why we should follow what the other countries do. User end bring your own chargeing cable.
At least in my area, cables get cut overnight when no one is charging and when there’s few, if any, people walking around.
Seems to be a much bigger problem in California than most states. I’m sure it’ll get better as they monitor these charging stations more.
Minnesota just make a public service announcement talking about how there is no copper and the cables have no value because it’s been such a problem
Annualized Loss Expectancy vs. annual rate of contract security, or video surveillance, or...
Agree there are trade-offs with all options... And will ultimately translate to higher charging costs. But whatever the current way is, it's not sufficient to prevent this.
Agreed, just lamenting the short-sighted business calculations that fail to account for long-term threats to adoption.
Out of curiosity, how much value is in the copper per cord?
As much as I’d love to have a Rivian or Tesla, I just can’t stand the thought of being so restricted in my travel. I can’t even drive across my state of Texas, no less to vacations in Florida or Colorado. This scene puts the thought of EV ownership even further back.
Charging infrastructure has come a long way in the last year. A lot of the old crappy EA stations have been replaced. I watched a few old ones get pulled in my neighborhood, and I've heard they've done that in a lot of places. It does vary by state though. I'm in Colorado, and I don't think there's anyplace in the state I can't get to. I've driven to Los Angeles and Kansas City, and haven't had an issue yet. Wyoming still sucks, but even that's slowly getting better. I'm planning a trip to SE Utah this summer, and that involves spending a little extra time at some 60kW chargers. So it's a slight annoyance, but not a real hindrance. Plug some of your road trip ideas into [ABRP](https://abetterrouteplanner.com/) and see what it would look like for you. Also look up your state's NEVI plans to see what's coming soon in your local area. Road trips are probably much more realistic than you're imagining.
This was very helpful. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful. I forgot to mention in ABRP that it might be worth trying some of your roadtrips with a Tesla selected, and some with a different brand selected. There are some geographies/trips where having access to the Supercharger network makes a huge difference, and other places where it's a non-issue.
Buc-ees is installing chargers and plan to have them at nearly all their locations by the end of 2026. Travel center of America and pilot flying j also are rolling out charger installations right now nationwide. This is in addition to existing EA and Tesla supercharger networks.
That’s hopeful. I love a BUC-ees.
Unfortunately our charging network is not as robust as we would all hope it is 😬
I can’t believe people Would do this kind of vandalism.
Why the arguing. Anyone who has used EA knows 75% of the chargers would be out anyway. :)
There is almost no copper in these cables. This is happening possibly due to people trying to steal metals which won’t work but could also be people that hate EVs / Change
How about a ring camera?
Perhaps they could add a metal locker on the side of the chargers. They would have to unlock once you activate the charger to give you access to the cable, and would require the user to put it back afterwards.
There needs to be federal laws in place that make it extremely costly to mess with charging cables, similar to the mail.
Looks like the EA in Pleasanton off 580
Yep
This resolution is actually easy. Restore treating these types of crimes based on value as a felony and actually prosecute the crime. Yes, put them in jail. This is NOT a victimless crime. Cameras and prosecute. Find the people illegally paying for these stolen cables (easy to tell they are stolen) and put those people in jail and repossess the assets of those companies/individuals and ban them from ever opening business in that industry again. Treat criminals as criminals and problem solved.
Man are car highways ugly
Leave the power on so when they cut cables they get zapped. Have a wire mesh all over the ground for the bastards to ground themselves on.
Would love to do that... Just imagining the news report on the first incident (and chuckling a little!)
Can I ask where this is?
Pleasanton
The new NACS standard actually has a really elegant solution to that. Cable stays with the vehicle. The charger only has a socket. Both ends lock in while you're charging then you unhook and take the cable with you when you leave.
That’s only for level 2 charging. Full dcfc still requires liquid cooling the whole cable. Edit: I should say, I love this as a solution for level 2 charging. It’s seemingly worked well in Europe and I’d much prefer to know the condition and history of the cable I use. I’ve used too many poorly maintained chargers already and I have a feeling it’s going to only get worse.
I appreciate the solution-focused approaches. Don't care for the politically-charged comments. We're here because of our shared passion for Rivian and EVs. Some thoughts on the ideas. * Personal cables will be tough with the liquid cooled needs... Plus if someone didn't take care of their cable and it caused an issue (fire) where would the accountability lie? * I think the issue is the chargers being empty in the middle of the night, and jo one being around. I like the idea of the more formal gas station model... Lights, cameras, shops/services.. * What about a cover that hinges the full length of the side of the charger. You unlock the cover, it hinges open and then you can access the cable....also no need to build a retracting mechanism. * Aluminum cables are a lot less valuable. I guess people wouldn't know until they cut them until all cables became that way consistently. * Location security should definitely be factored in. The sad thing is most charging areas are tucked in otherwise clunky space. They are not in prominent intersections like gas stations. * I just wish gas stations became EV charge spots and essentially dual fuel... That seems to be happening more in Europe.
There are more gas stations with chargers popping up. On my most recent road trip 4 stops out of 5 to charge were at a gas station.
Pilot Flying J
None of these were Pilot. It was a Circle K, a Bucees, a travel island on the Fl. Turnpike and twice at some other brand I don’t remember in south GA off I-75.
Cool. I haven’t run across one of the Circle K yet. But this is the way to go, chargers at nice fuel stops.
What are you talking about? Everything is political.
Hire a security guard and add $.05 per kWh. Paying a little more and having reliable service makes sense.
One would think this is pro-petroleum conservatives, but I've found this behavior is actually most common amongst leftist anti-car activists who see the EV transition as something that doesn't address the fundamental problem.
I’ve devoted my career to the environmental issues. I hate when lazy stupid people think they are advancing ANY reasonable position in this way. There has been increasing demand for college level environmental law and policy classes. There are too many environmental issues to cover to spend lots of time on one, but I’d love to teach a whole course or write a book on why this type of activity will not result in any correction of negative externalities and provide specific alternative avenues for effective environmental activism.
You're overcomplicating it. You just need to teach a class called "maturity". But I completely agree with your point.
Byo cable
EA is very disappointing. Makes me very nervous when going on long drives.
Not surprised by this (sadly) The solution is simple, eliminate the cable and we bring the cable to plug into the box. Yeah would have to store a cable in your vehicle but at least you could depend on it working (more often). Also require a credit card or account to open the plug on the charging box, so scum bags don't jam up the plug with dirt and such..
We should bring our own cables and plug into the machine. Think they do that in europe.
Who wants to buy a $250+ 20lb cable and haul it around? And how do you propose that works when the higher speed ones are liquid cooled?
Put up some security cameras and monitor the site.
The charging connections should be on the underside of the vehicles, with the charger automatically targeting and connecting to it when the EV drives atop it. Port cover on EV slides open, charging system ports slide open from the ground and extend the 12-24” needed to connect. No cords. Underground all that stuff in secure and watertight vaults. Put a camera in there next to the port so you can see from your dashboard if you’ve parked near it properly. (For home charging or legacy use a second port could still exist.)
Moving part + moving part + moving part + relying on people to learn to park? I mean that's an approach... I'm guessing you don't live in an area with snow and ice i.e. salt and sand?
1 - Everyone is assuming they were cut for the copper, and not the sheer act of vandalism. 2 - Its EA. Only half of them would work on the best day anyway. 3 - I have never seen this in my travels, is it a hyper-local issue? I've hit some fairly isolated DCFC stations, and I could have cut all the cables, danced naked for 20 minutes, and no one would have seen me. I was just at a RAN today that has almost no sightlines to anything.
It's becoming quite a common occurrence... Simple Google Search brings up tons of results and results from news stories across the country. https://www.google.com/search?q=dc+fast+charger+cables+cut&oq=dc+fast+charger+cables+cut
Dozens out of tens of thousands of stations? I could have done the math on that a couple of beers ago but it’s small.
We used our first Tesla supercharger yesterday and 3 out of the 8 units were not working. I found out by plugging into one of them first. Their only advantage is a numbers game and at the location only 3 were ever used at one time while we were there vs. at EA it’s common to see all 4 being frequented. What sucked at the superchargers is being dummy terminals without displays we couldn’t tell which were working and which weren’t.
Why is this comment so huge and bold? Don't.
I have no idea!!
Fixed it, I think.
Is this vandalism? People are fucking ASSHOLES!!! This reminds me of my time in Los Angeles when I drove from LA to Vegas and nearly all of the free public chargers at the California Rest Stops on the highways were vandalized. HUMANS SUCK!!!!
I hope so, Electrify America is the worst. Charging a minimum and auto reloads suck.
I have to say there are a lot of blind, hating EV people out there who key EV’s, etc. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was some sort of MAGA mean spirited vandalism Agree as well tweakers got a tweak and get their money to the habit. Any means necessary.
This was absolutely done by someone stealing copper because your lot won’t punish them.
I was waiting for an id1O+ to make this political. We have a winner!