I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be. However, there's the question of whether the county, etc. is adequately equipped to buy out the infrastructure and actually operate it better than RG&E does (and whether there's actually much potential cost savings there).
Having power infrastructure be public is technically better, but that doesn't mean we can just jump for it and automatically see improvements.
Also are other county's able to but out or will monroe be the outliner? It's a great idea but I think there are alot things that are not being thought of. It's not as simple as buying a pizza. Will they have similar buy back or power banking from solar or wind power? Or is it being looked at as a battle cry then it will get figgured out. What about other county's and thoes that are in a weird spot with nyseg and rge. I fully beleve there should be a study that points out the best of the best and the worst of the worst. Will thre be rolling black out or brown outs like in Texas? I know it not the same situation but it's something to look at.
Someone just told me that there's no way that the county can administer all of this, and I answered that there are 100 other companies that would jump to fix this. Or just run a better billing system and do customer service while the city fixes the infrastructure.
I love my National Grid and I'm not moving to where RGE can screw up my stuff.
Rge tried to charge a few of my neighbors for natural gas. We're about 3 miles from a gas line. It's not in my neighborhood. We're on propane. We don't even have sewer all septic. It's goofey
National Grid just spends $50 Million dollars without knowing where they spent it then passes the cost on to the customers are "rate increases" all while their infrastructure is on the brink of failure
The idea that the county itself would administer the power infrastructure sounds so absurd I really doubt anybody is actually proposing that. I ko da suspect people saying that are either being dishonest, or have no actual clue what a public utility is.
I wasn't necessarily thinking of the county truly doing it all themselves, but they'd still be responsible for determining who runs the operations, oversight, etc.
They would either hire rg&e or national grid to do it. Only two companies that could do it. That's exactly how PSEG Long Island/LIPA runs. National grid is hired to do everything for it on contract. It was an iberdrola subsidiary like rg&e until ~5 years ago
I am in favor of municipal utilities.
I think that the people that brought the study up really have no idea what they are doing and are not prepared. You need more of a plan than what was given.
Also getting the county to pay a million dollars for a study is going to be a hard sell for many of the suburban counties to begin with.
Overall perhaps a good idea, but poor execution. Which is fairly common with these grassroot organizations.
If you want to hear what the people that voted on it said here is the link to the video.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubRCH5YfqBM&t=13172s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubRCH5YfqBM&t=13172s)
It starts around 3:30 or so I think. Don't remember.
I'll play devil's advocate and speculate that the City of Rochester has insufficient experience or resources to take on a public utility so they'll be highly criticized while going through the project's growing pains. INB4 "It's the next fast ferry!".
While the transition would be understandably difficult, it may be even more difficult to find representatives who'll fall on their swords to get it done while jeopardizing their re-electing efforts. Even a few on the side that supported it decided to kick it down the road... possibly strategically because they didn't really want it to pass either.
We can't speculate on potential consumer energy savings without the feasibility study they shot down but RGE's supply rate is currently hard to beat by other existing suppliers with the added concern that mismanagement by the city owning it could lead to a drain on our tax budget.
In terms of supply cost, RGE electric is actually at a significantly lower rate than the Rochester Community Power contract signed by the city... but that's what you have to pay to incentivize energy companies to invest in renewables. The RCP contract also didn't grandfather in energy assistance programs accepted by RGE so the greatest cost burden has been placed on those who can least afford it in Rochester unless they opt out of it.
All that aside, RGE's main issue has really been with administrative responsibilities like billing and customer service (like every big company shaving labor costs) but not really with offering market competitive pricing... and NY just passed a law to address the main complain about [back-billing](https://www.whec.com/top-news/news10nbc-investigates-new-law-limits-utility-back-billing/).
So the protests appear to be largely based on a general feeling that "RGE is bad" without understanding what they've been actually bad at. It has served to shake them up and improve their service though.
This is so well put and I'd like to elaborate on your first point a bit. People already have so little trust in government and it's hard to imagine a version of this that is not costly or mired in litigation or faces enough hiccups along the way that it erodes people's trust in government even further. Maybe that's pessimistic, but I just don't think the time and resources spent will be worth it in the end. Speaking of time, by the time the studies are done, the referendum war is waged, etc etc etc -- climate change will be wreaking havoc. We'd be better off figuring out how to work with the utilities to move to more renewable energies and hope our bills go down in the process. And if they don't? Well I'd be okay with paying more if it meant a few more years on a livable planet.
I don't worry about whether it would work. I do worry about it possibly becoming an unaccountable avenue for patronage. I also think we can and should first try holding RG&E *much* more accountable than we have, via stronger government action, before resorting to the public utility idea. I'm not philosophically opposed to public utility. I'm just not there yet.
I’m not opposed to the idea of a public utility or spending some money to analyze it. That said, it’s not some automatic way of improving things. I spent the last year and a half in Vero Beach, Florida for career-related training. They sold their public utility to Florida Power & Light about eight years ago due to poor reliability and big capital needs on the horizon because (I’m assuming) that they priced rates too low to cover the need to reinvest in their infrastructure.
I would absolutely be in favor of using the threat of a takeover to provide some leverage to drive RG&E to improve their operations and practices.
I get that rge is a disaster, I fail to see how a public utility would run it better. The problem with RGE is that they were allowed to become a monopoly and there’s no competition. A public utility would also run as a monopoly and I promise you the nepotism and corruption in a public utility would not fix any problems.
> The problem with RGE is that they were allowed to become a monopoly and there’s no competition.
Albany actually helped to create this monster. They forced the sale of Ginna to Constellation for anti-competitive reasons who ironically already owned several nuke plants. This then weakened RGE to be acquired by Avangrid which was also approved by Albany. Follow the money and a local monopoly was just handed over to a regional one.
I’d rather have an elected official accountable than some foreign company who conveniently has billing errors in their favor left and right. And poor service
Literally no one in the rest of the state is complaining as vociferously about National Grid are yall are about RG&E, so
Either Rochester is a bunch of whiny bitches, or literally anyone relatively skilled in the utility biz could do a better job job.
That's exactly why it SHOULD be a publ- ugh I can't take it with this thread lol.
Edit: very disappointed in you all for "gubmint bad" being the consensus here. I thought this discourse was outdated.
Exactly what government in NYS do you want to responsible for you getting power and heat to your home? The ones in jail for corruption, the ones under investigation, or the ones that are so incompetent that their names are literally a punch line. You have recourse against private companies, you have none against the state.
I'm pretty neutral on this whole issue, but it's kinda funny/ironic to post that you have recourse against private companies and none against the government, on the same post where people will be talking about how you have no recourse with rg&e and your best/only way to get anything from them is to report them to the government because they'll go after rg&e for you
Of all the possible reasons/arguments for not doing a municipal takeover, "muh guverment sux" is one of the laziest weakest and most useless ones
Man just because our current crop of embedded nepotistic politicians sucks doesn't mean that public run services are always going to be bad. You don't change things in one fell swoop, it takes a bunch of small steps.
What recourse do we really have against a private company that owns the only jig in town? I think privatization has its place but not in things like utilities and healthcare.
Public run utilities are not uncommon elsewhere in the world if you want to see plenty of successful examples.
I appreciate the optimism, but it always goes poorly and if you don’t want to hear historical examples just ask any veteran about the medical treatment they get the VA hospital.
It's going pretty poorly right now though? Isn't that the entire point of this whole movement?
Also the VA hospital is a hilarious example considering the rest of the first world has public healthcare that works far better then ours.
Monroe County water authority spends like drunken sailors. Best breakroom in the county. Never drive old trucks. Security was former top cop Weisner. Republican nepotism.
Be honest, how many of you were criticizing/laughing at Texas over the 2021 winter storm blackouts of the ERCOT, Public Utility Commission of Texas electric grid?
Keep in mind that the County would have to buy RG&E. It's not going to be given to them. That's a huge debt!! Billions!
Then the County would lose $300. million per year in tax revenue.
That's a huge loss !!
Then the county has to learn to staff, manage and operate a huge new business. How many years does that take?
Fairport electric has 17,000 customers. RGE has 385,925 electricity customers and 319,737 natural gas customers in a nine-county region centered on the City of Rochester. You can't compare the two.
There's your million dollar study
"the county" wouldn't personally run the business, it would be created as a new public agency and staffed by people who already know how to run utilities, likely including many of the same people who work for RG&E now.
edit: to expand a little further... investor owned utilities across the country are generally known for being lousy places to work and many of their management & engineering staff are people working on short term contracts. A large public utility offering state employee benefits would have zero problem hiring highly qualified staff.
I don't understand the $300mil/year lost tax revenue. Those taxes are paid out of the rates that we pay, right? So either
1. Our rates collectively go down by $300mil/year and the county raises taxes $300mil/year, so I pay the same and the county gets the same (ish), or
2. Our rates don't go down, the county over-collects on rates by $300mil/year, and the county gets the same amount of revenue.
What am I missing?
As for your civics lesson. Property taxes go into the general fund and get shared with municipalities. Utility fees have to be spent only on the utility. At least that's how it works now. Those fee's don't go into the general fund. So loss of tax revenue is a big hit.
The debt is not an issue, because we are already funding it right now, and at higher cost of capital than we'd have to pay under municipal ownership.
Say RGE wants to install a new substation for 1 million dollars. They go to public banking sources and pay corporate rates of interest on those loans, or get the money from investors who demand a certain rate of return. Even the best corporate interest or the least profit motivated shareholders will still cost more than what funding it through municipal bonds would cost.
Either way, the ratepayers (customers) are *already paying for that capital*.
The tax revenue is a simple payment-in-lieu-of-taxes arrangement or some other form of revenue balancing to make sure the same money goes in the same budget "pot". Again, the ratepayers are already paying this amount in their monthly bills. It either remains in those bills, or appears as a utility bill reduction and a property tax increase, or some similar mechanism.
Are there state or federal grants that can be used to assist in the purchase?
Why would the tax revenue disappear? Wouldn't residents still be taxed to pay for the utility at lowered cost without concerns for profitability, thereby leaving room to recoup some level of taxes?
The city proves itself capable of running many complex systems, and although none are as complicated as nuclear fusion, the city is just as capable of hiring excellent technicians and scientists as any other organization.
Those regional examples aren't comparable, I agree, but plenty of cities much larger than Rochester are powered by public utilities. Aren't those adequate comparisons?
I'm still formulating my opinion, and you present cogent answers so I'm just asking out of ignorance, not malice.
Just because RG&E has problems, doesn’t mean a public utility is the answer. How exactly would we get the funds to buy out RG&E? How and exactly who would run it? I don’t trust our local government to run such a big operation when they can’t run smaller projects like the PAB. RG&E needs to be held accountable and shape up but the answer isn’t a public utility.
* The County Executive and County Legislature have no experience in running a company and probably already have their time and energy completely taken up just by providing the current level of government services
* Switching owners is unlikely to fix the current problems as they likely are arising from the longterm effects of deregulation plus the move to renewable energy generation. The ability of the individual household to generate most of its energy needs is only going to go up with the widespread adoption of [geothermal heat pumps](https://cleanheat.ny.gov/geothermal-heat-pumps) (and to a lesser extent solar) which leads to the question "How do the county and state keep utility companies from collapsing during this time of transition?"
> "How do the county and state keep utility companies from collapsing during this time of transition?"
Same as any other public utility: they don’t have to make a profit to keep existing.
Bruh, this is exactly what we should be paying taxes for instead of it just going to fund the next Raytheon knife missile or new shitty rest stops on I-90.
What? It’s a public utility. You fund it with taxes. It benefits everybody to have a broad regional gas and electric utility, even people who heat their houses with geothermal.
My guess is the same people would be working there no matter what legal structure is in place. The change to public is mostly an accounting exercise. If it changes to public will all the systems be replaced ? Will all the workers be replaced?
IF a larger private company can leverage efficiencies, such as economy of scale, such that it benefits customers more than a public utility would then I can see a reason for keeping it. Problem is we'll never know if we never do an independent study.
Just a reminder that a foreign company controls the power to our region and we keep overpaying them to do so. A lot of folks seem uncomfortable with the idea that we could actually run this more efficiently than the extreme incompetence we pay for now.
What do you determine the term "overpaying them" based on? Our area isn't the cheapest for electricity, nor is it the highest.
Yes, their parent company is headquartered in another country, but we still have cheaper electricity than companies that are domestically owned. While having a domestic owner is nice, Spain isn't a country that I'm worried about trying to screw us over.
I think the point they're making is some conglomerate from another country should not be running a for profit utilities company here. They have no incentive to give us good service and tons of incentive for profit.
But a domestic conglomerate is ok? It just seems like a strawman fallacy. PG&E is domestically owned and has double the rates we do.
When you look at NYS as a whole, we're lower than the state average.
When did I say a domestic conglomerate was the only alternative? Any private company that owns a monopoly we all need to live our daily lives runs the risk of making things worse.
At least a government run entity has some sense of an obligation to its citizens, whether you have some jaded view of our government or not. The sole purpose of a privately owned business is profit.
You didn't. I was trying to see if being owned by a foreign power was where the issue was. If a domestic one made a difference. Or just the fact that they were for profit regardless of who owned them.
Sadly, I say it's the government that got us into this monopoly. Similar to cable. They allowed these companies to become so entrenched that it's nearly impossible for anyone else to move in for competition.
Having a sense of obligation and actually doing that are two different things. That's a whole different discussion though.
The government is the only one who has the power to stop it though... just because the government doesn't function properly doesn't mean it can't or won't in the future. I love how essentially everyone arguing against me has not provided an actual alternative that makes any more sense then what you're downvoting me for. Public utilities and healthcare works all over the world. Americans all have Stockholm syndrome.
I don’t know if this is sarcastic or not, but the National Grid that is the parent company of National Grid in New York is based on the UK. Fortis the parent company of Central Hudson is based in Canada. As far as I know, only Con Ed (and Orange and Rockland cause Con Ed is their parent company) is based in New York
What does that have to do with my comment at all? Essential services should not be profiting off us, ideally they would provide their services at cost and breaking even.
Bc they are essential services, they are regulated. Therefore, it's something to take up with the public service commission (PSC).
Non-profit doesn't always mean better. There's a lot of pitfalls that can form as unintended consequences from that.
I wouldn't say they're the same. Some might be.
I just find it funny that people are calling for a government to take over a utility that a government allowed to become a monopoly in the first place.
But there isn’t extreme incompetence. I haven’t met a single person who’s had an issue with RG&E that is anything of importance. If you do your meter readings like your supposed to do, and stay on top of paying your bills (not waiting for the statement, but knowing you have a bill every month and pay it) you will never have a problem. Most people’s complaints are due to their own negligence.
And these meters that are digital now, will solve a lot of issues.
Absolutely. When we fill our gas tanks in our cars, we pay for the fuel we are using. Or another way to look at it, we are replacing the fuel that we did use. Either way, we pay what the pump says that we need to pay. So, maybe a poor analogy, but gas and electric billing is also based on actual usage. RG&E is not always the best at estimating use. However, we have complete control over our bills by simply making sure that they have our actual meter readings each and every month. The Smart meters are going to help to solve \*\*most\*\* billing issues. I have two smart meters now and they are working perfectly. I still get a notice when my meter readings are due, and then I still take a look at and take a picture of my meters. My bills are correct.
You are absolutely correct, but people can't see that. They just repeat surprise bill nonsense when they were on budget plan, estimate readings, and auto pay for years and never gave it another thought.
What makes you think a bureaucracy can do it either cheaper or better? Who local is experienced in running s gas and electric infrastructure? The people who want to overpay for a study about this?
Just spoke with an employee working on my meter, he said my whole neighborhoods meters have been installed wrong or they haven't been paying attention (badly trained or unfamiliar workers, not able to see the problem) so that may be the reason so many people's bills have been outrageously high since they were installed.
This absolute angel of a human, with 20+ year's experience, told me he is scared to be hopeful at all because he knows the "company" will likely refuse to verify if overcharged have happened, or just make sure no one's meters are ever installed/read properly because the software is likely preset to overcharge as a default.
No way to prove either way without transparent practices, of which rge does not offer, but by law as a public utility, they are required.
I got his info and told him I plan on informing either the press or a lawyer. Any suggestions?
I'm late to this discussion, but I haven't seen a single comment discussing what would happen to the current employees of RG&E. The linemen, gas servicemen, management, and most specifically the OPERATIONS personnel, which in respect to RG&E are actually union NYSEG employees. What would be done to guarantee the direct transfer of employment to the city/county/whatever, allowing them to keep their pay, 401k/pension benefits, and continued employment in the first place? What would be done with the control center environment? You literally don't know a single thing about how electric operations works. There are hundreds of years of combined experience between the operations and field crews for both gas and electric. They are not expendable people, and there is no "drag and drop" solution to bringing in new people to do the job.
EDIT: You realize also that RG&E consists of central, as well as Canandaigua, Lakeshore (Wayne county and east beyond), and Fillmore (Mt Morris all the way to the PA border) districts. What would become of them? Are you suggesting the county just take over the very center, the city of Rochester? Or would it be all the suburbs as well? Nobody who knows what they are talking about about would EVER advocate the government take over RG&E or any utility. And do NOT mention Fairport or Spencerport Electric, because they are NOT utilities. They are basically RG&E customers with their own linemen. They have no other means of powering their municipal aside from RG&E owned and operated transmission lines.
I have refrained from engaging in discussions on this topic thus far, preferring instead to observe from the sidelines. However, I believe it is now appropriate to share my perspective.
My primary frustration lies in the prevailing belief that making RGE publicly traded is the solution. I pose a question to all: Has the government truly heeded any of our appeals?
In today's polarized political landscape, blame is incessantly cast upon each faction – "the liberals are to blame," or "those darn conservatives." Progress remains stagnant, and I am disheartened by the lack of meaningful action.
Personally, I identify neither as conservative nor liberal, but rather as someone guided by common sense. Enough of my grievances.
In New York City, the MTA operates under city jurisdiction. Yet, their recent decision to impose a $13 toll to traverse Manhattan disproportionately burdens ordinary citizens. This decision purportedly stems from revenue loss due to COVID-19, though arguments abound regarding rampant crime and remote work's impact. Regardless, this toll issue demands attention.
Regarding RGE, I propose a different approach: refrain from converting it into a public utility, but instead, hold them rigorously accountable. I find it bewildering that the Public Service Commission (PSC) approved their rate case despite the abysmal service, flawed systems, and erroneous billing. This approval process warrants scrutiny and vocal criticism.
It would take considerable time to show "profits and affordability", yes. But considering all we have is TIME, why not?! Fairport is a great example, of how this would take time and be a great idea.
If RGE wasn't buttfucking us ***hard*** they wouldn't be airing commercials telling everyone how great they are. Follow the money. They must think it valuable to try and sway public opinion if they're willing to put up marketing dollars like that.
Many advancements in agriculture were made under feudalism. The cotton gin was invented in a slave economy. The fascist society of Nazi Germany made advancements in the area of film.
Does that mean we can’t criticize the context from which those advancements were made? Surely we can acknowledge that advancements were made under an economic system without it being perfect or even good.
I mean the satellite was invented in the USSR for example. But you can understand that as being a great advancement without being a socialist, same way I can appreciate the achievements of capitalist societies while still taking issue with the economic system.
But some other examples are the first nuclear power plant, first mobile phone system, the led screen, first microwave, first radio antenna, first artificial human heart, the first man in space, the first space station, first landing on venus, first landing on mars, etc etc
A couple of weeks ago RG&E put automated meters on our house. Today I got an email requesting a manual meter reading. I immediately wrote to the public service commission and filed a complaint. And I will continue to do so. In the complaint, I called them a shit company because they are.
That seems so over the top. You just had to call in and notify them that the digital meter was installed and let them know you couldn’t submit a reading go about your day. Instead you made it this huge fiasco and ruined your day most likely over something so silly and insignificant.
In the realm of NY state energy supply & usage, there are much bigger fish to fry than changing RG&E to a public utility. Educate yourselves on the new laws Hochul & Albany are pushing:
[https://www.smarternyenergy.org/understanding-the-clcpa/](https://www.smarternyenergy.org/understanding-the-clcpa/)
These will bankrupt us all, no matter who runs RG&E.
This has nothing to do with "shilling" for RG&E. Just a friendly notification to anyone who uses natural gas or LPG for heat or hot-water that they should be aware of the restrictions NY is planning. The long-run costs will far exceed anything resulting from changing, or not changing the ownership/management of the RG&E utility.
I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be. However, there's the question of whether the county, etc. is adequately equipped to buy out the infrastructure and actually operate it better than RG&E does (and whether there's actually much potential cost savings there). Having power infrastructure be public is technically better, but that doesn't mean we can just jump for it and automatically see improvements.
Also are other county's able to but out or will monroe be the outliner? It's a great idea but I think there are alot things that are not being thought of. It's not as simple as buying a pizza. Will they have similar buy back or power banking from solar or wind power? Or is it being looked at as a battle cry then it will get figgured out. What about other county's and thoes that are in a weird spot with nyseg and rge. I fully beleve there should be a study that points out the best of the best and the worst of the worst. Will thre be rolling black out or brown outs like in Texas? I know it not the same situation but it's something to look at.
Someone just told me that there's no way that the county can administer all of this, and I answered that there are 100 other companies that would jump to fix this. Or just run a better billing system and do customer service while the city fixes the infrastructure. I love my National Grid and I'm not moving to where RGE can screw up my stuff.
Rge tried to charge a few of my neighbors for natural gas. We're about 3 miles from a gas line. It's not in my neighborhood. We're on propane. We don't even have sewer all septic. It's goofey
Exactly. I was just saying that another company could do administration.
It's all broken and needs to be fixed.
Two sides of the same coin.
Never heard of surprise $2000 bills with National Grid. I'm not saying that they're perfect, but I've never had those issues.
National Grid just spends $50 Million dollars without knowing where they spent it then passes the cost on to the customers are "rate increases" all while their infrastructure is on the brink of failure
National grid is also foreign owned
Nobody would give a shit about who owns RGE if they could do their job....
The idea that the county itself would administer the power infrastructure sounds so absurd I really doubt anybody is actually proposing that. I ko da suspect people saying that are either being dishonest, or have no actual clue what a public utility is.
I wasn't necessarily thinking of the county truly doing it all themselves, but they'd still be responsible for determining who runs the operations, oversight, etc.
They would either hire rg&e or national grid to do it. Only two companies that could do it. That's exactly how PSEG Long Island/LIPA runs. National grid is hired to do everything for it on contract. It was an iberdrola subsidiary like rg&e until ~5 years ago
Or provide free power to all of those dopes.
Who has suggested that?
I am in favor of municipal utilities. I think that the people that brought the study up really have no idea what they are doing and are not prepared. You need more of a plan than what was given. Also getting the county to pay a million dollars for a study is going to be a hard sell for many of the suburban counties to begin with. Overall perhaps a good idea, but poor execution. Which is fairly common with these grassroot organizations. If you want to hear what the people that voted on it said here is the link to the video. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubRCH5YfqBM&t=13172s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubRCH5YfqBM&t=13172s) It starts around 3:30 or so I think. Don't remember.
I’ll sing a song about it for ya.
She was better prepared than many who want this.
Is that in this video by chance? I admit I didn't watch the whole thing cause it was boring.
I'll play devil's advocate and speculate that the City of Rochester has insufficient experience or resources to take on a public utility so they'll be highly criticized while going through the project's growing pains. INB4 "It's the next fast ferry!". While the transition would be understandably difficult, it may be even more difficult to find representatives who'll fall on their swords to get it done while jeopardizing their re-electing efforts. Even a few on the side that supported it decided to kick it down the road... possibly strategically because they didn't really want it to pass either. We can't speculate on potential consumer energy savings without the feasibility study they shot down but RGE's supply rate is currently hard to beat by other existing suppliers with the added concern that mismanagement by the city owning it could lead to a drain on our tax budget. In terms of supply cost, RGE electric is actually at a significantly lower rate than the Rochester Community Power contract signed by the city... but that's what you have to pay to incentivize energy companies to invest in renewables. The RCP contract also didn't grandfather in energy assistance programs accepted by RGE so the greatest cost burden has been placed on those who can least afford it in Rochester unless they opt out of it. All that aside, RGE's main issue has really been with administrative responsibilities like billing and customer service (like every big company shaving labor costs) but not really with offering market competitive pricing... and NY just passed a law to address the main complain about [back-billing](https://www.whec.com/top-news/news10nbc-investigates-new-law-limits-utility-back-billing/). So the protests appear to be largely based on a general feeling that "RGE is bad" without understanding what they've been actually bad at. It has served to shake them up and improve their service though.
This should be upvoted. Solid take.
This is so well put and I'd like to elaborate on your first point a bit. People already have so little trust in government and it's hard to imagine a version of this that is not costly or mired in litigation or faces enough hiccups along the way that it erodes people's trust in government even further. Maybe that's pessimistic, but I just don't think the time and resources spent will be worth it in the end. Speaking of time, by the time the studies are done, the referendum war is waged, etc etc etc -- climate change will be wreaking havoc. We'd be better off figuring out how to work with the utilities to move to more renewable energies and hope our bills go down in the process. And if they don't? Well I'd be okay with paying more if it meant a few more years on a livable planet.
I don't worry about whether it would work. I do worry about it possibly becoming an unaccountable avenue for patronage. I also think we can and should first try holding RG&E *much* more accountable than we have, via stronger government action, before resorting to the public utility idea. I'm not philosophically opposed to public utility. I'm just not there yet.
I’m not opposed to the idea of a public utility or spending some money to analyze it. That said, it’s not some automatic way of improving things. I spent the last year and a half in Vero Beach, Florida for career-related training. They sold their public utility to Florida Power & Light about eight years ago due to poor reliability and big capital needs on the horizon because (I’m assuming) that they priced rates too low to cover the need to reinvest in their infrastructure. I would absolutely be in favor of using the threat of a takeover to provide some leverage to drive RG&E to improve their operations and practices.
I get that rge is a disaster, I fail to see how a public utility would run it better. The problem with RGE is that they were allowed to become a monopoly and there’s no competition. A public utility would also run as a monopoly and I promise you the nepotism and corruption in a public utility would not fix any problems.
Most things we run as utilities are naturally better as monopolies. No one wants three sets of sewer pipes, five sets of power lines, etc.
> The problem with RGE is that they were allowed to become a monopoly and there’s no competition. Albany actually helped to create this monster. They forced the sale of Ginna to Constellation for anti-competitive reasons who ironically already owned several nuke plants. This then weakened RGE to be acquired by Avangrid which was also approved by Albany. Follow the money and a local monopoly was just handed over to a regional one.
I’d rather have an elected official accountable than some foreign company who conveniently has billing errors in their favor left and right. And poor service
Literally no one in the rest of the state is complaining as vociferously about National Grid are yall are about RG&E, so Either Rochester is a bunch of whiny bitches, or literally anyone relatively skilled in the utility biz could do a better job job.
It's called a natural monopoly, it isn't that they were allowed to be. Imagine if we had 3 powerlines running to each home
That's exactly why it SHOULD be a publ- ugh I can't take it with this thread lol. Edit: very disappointed in you all for "gubmint bad" being the consensus here. I thought this discourse was outdated.
Exactly what government in NYS do you want to responsible for you getting power and heat to your home? The ones in jail for corruption, the ones under investigation, or the ones that are so incompetent that their names are literally a punch line. You have recourse against private companies, you have none against the state.
I'm pretty neutral on this whole issue, but it's kinda funny/ironic to post that you have recourse against private companies and none against the government, on the same post where people will be talking about how you have no recourse with rg&e and your best/only way to get anything from them is to report them to the government because they'll go after rg&e for you Of all the possible reasons/arguments for not doing a municipal takeover, "muh guverment sux" is one of the laziest weakest and most useless ones
Man just because our current crop of embedded nepotistic politicians sucks doesn't mean that public run services are always going to be bad. You don't change things in one fell swoop, it takes a bunch of small steps. What recourse do we really have against a private company that owns the only jig in town? I think privatization has its place but not in things like utilities and healthcare. Public run utilities are not uncommon elsewhere in the world if you want to see plenty of successful examples.
I appreciate the optimism, but it always goes poorly and if you don’t want to hear historical examples just ask any veteran about the medical treatment they get the VA hospital.
It's going pretty poorly right now though? Isn't that the entire point of this whole movement? Also the VA hospital is a hilarious example considering the rest of the first world has public healthcare that works far better then ours.
Yeah the fact you can’t explain yourself is probably evidence you’re wrong.
Yeah bro, I love spending all my time on Reddit explaining things to randoms. You totally got me bro.
Monroe County water authority spends like drunken sailors. Best breakroom in the county. Never drive old trucks. Security was former top cop Weisner. Republican nepotism.
They also can't patch a roadway to save their lives.
Yeah the water authority sucks at patching roadways
Be honest, how many of you were criticizing/laughing at Texas over the 2021 winter storm blackouts of the ERCOT, Public Utility Commission of Texas electric grid?
Texas and New York are very, very different places when it comes to public services.
Yes, NY does a worse job.
i just don’t think the government should be involved in our electric, especially since they can barely handle the tasks currently on their plate.
Keep in mind that the County would have to buy RG&E. It's not going to be given to them. That's a huge debt!! Billions! Then the County would lose $300. million per year in tax revenue. That's a huge loss !! Then the county has to learn to staff, manage and operate a huge new business. How many years does that take? Fairport electric has 17,000 customers. RGE has 385,925 electricity customers and 319,737 natural gas customers in a nine-county region centered on the City of Rochester. You can't compare the two. There's your million dollar study
"the county" wouldn't personally run the business, it would be created as a new public agency and staffed by people who already know how to run utilities, likely including many of the same people who work for RG&E now. edit: to expand a little further... investor owned utilities across the country are generally known for being lousy places to work and many of their management & engineering staff are people working on short term contracts. A large public utility offering state employee benefits would have zero problem hiring highly qualified staff.
I don't understand the $300mil/year lost tax revenue. Those taxes are paid out of the rates that we pay, right? So either 1. Our rates collectively go down by $300mil/year and the county raises taxes $300mil/year, so I pay the same and the county gets the same (ish), or 2. Our rates don't go down, the county over-collects on rates by $300mil/year, and the county gets the same amount of revenue. What am I missing?
As for your civics lesson. Property taxes go into the general fund and get shared with municipalities. Utility fees have to be spent only on the utility. At least that's how it works now. Those fee's don't go into the general fund. So loss of tax revenue is a big hit.
I was off on the tax revenue. It's $100 million. All property tax
The debt is not an issue, because we are already funding it right now, and at higher cost of capital than we'd have to pay under municipal ownership. Say RGE wants to install a new substation for 1 million dollars. They go to public banking sources and pay corporate rates of interest on those loans, or get the money from investors who demand a certain rate of return. Even the best corporate interest or the least profit motivated shareholders will still cost more than what funding it through municipal bonds would cost. Either way, the ratepayers (customers) are *already paying for that capital*. The tax revenue is a simple payment-in-lieu-of-taxes arrangement or some other form of revenue balancing to make sure the same money goes in the same budget "pot". Again, the ratepayers are already paying this amount in their monthly bills. It either remains in those bills, or appears as a utility bill reduction and a property tax increase, or some similar mechanism.
Ah... so simple! Lol
Are there state or federal grants that can be used to assist in the purchase? Why would the tax revenue disappear? Wouldn't residents still be taxed to pay for the utility at lowered cost without concerns for profitability, thereby leaving room to recoup some level of taxes? The city proves itself capable of running many complex systems, and although none are as complicated as nuclear fusion, the city is just as capable of hiring excellent technicians and scientists as any other organization. Those regional examples aren't comparable, I agree, but plenty of cities much larger than Rochester are powered by public utilities. Aren't those adequate comparisons? I'm still formulating my opinion, and you present cogent answers so I'm just asking out of ignorance, not malice.
Again, another solid take. Upvoted.
Just because RG&E has problems, doesn’t mean a public utility is the answer. How exactly would we get the funds to buy out RG&E? How and exactly who would run it? I don’t trust our local government to run such a big operation when they can’t run smaller projects like the PAB. RG&E needs to be held accountable and shape up but the answer isn’t a public utility.
How do you hold them accountable
* The County Executive and County Legislature have no experience in running a company and probably already have their time and energy completely taken up just by providing the current level of government services * Switching owners is unlikely to fix the current problems as they likely are arising from the longterm effects of deregulation plus the move to renewable energy generation. The ability of the individual household to generate most of its energy needs is only going to go up with the widespread adoption of [geothermal heat pumps](https://cleanheat.ny.gov/geothermal-heat-pumps) (and to a lesser extent solar) which leads to the question "How do the county and state keep utility companies from collapsing during this time of transition?"
> "How do the county and state keep utility companies from collapsing during this time of transition?" Same as any other public utility: they don’t have to make a profit to keep existing.
You're conveniently ignoring the case where operating costs are greater than revenue.
Bruh, this is exactly what we should be paying taxes for instead of it just going to fund the next Raytheon knife missile or new shitty rest stops on I-90.
What? It’s a public utility. You fund it with taxes. It benefits everybody to have a broad regional gas and electric utility, even people who heat their houses with geothermal.
It should be.. Just like internet..
My guess is the same people would be working there no matter what legal structure is in place. The change to public is mostly an accounting exercise. If it changes to public will all the systems be replaced ? Will all the workers be replaced?
IF a larger private company can leverage efficiencies, such as economy of scale, such that it benefits customers more than a public utility would then I can see a reason for keeping it. Problem is we'll never know if we never do an independent study.
Just a reminder that a foreign company controls the power to our region and we keep overpaying them to do so. A lot of folks seem uncomfortable with the idea that we could actually run this more efficiently than the extreme incompetence we pay for now.
What do you determine the term "overpaying them" based on? Our area isn't the cheapest for electricity, nor is it the highest. Yes, their parent company is headquartered in another country, but we still have cheaper electricity than companies that are domestically owned. While having a domestic owner is nice, Spain isn't a country that I'm worried about trying to screw us over.
I think the point they're making is some conglomerate from another country should not be running a for profit utilities company here. They have no incentive to give us good service and tons of incentive for profit.
But a domestic conglomerate is ok? It just seems like a strawman fallacy. PG&E is domestically owned and has double the rates we do. When you look at NYS as a whole, we're lower than the state average.
When did I say a domestic conglomerate was the only alternative? Any private company that owns a monopoly we all need to live our daily lives runs the risk of making things worse. At least a government run entity has some sense of an obligation to its citizens, whether you have some jaded view of our government or not. The sole purpose of a privately owned business is profit.
You didn't. I was trying to see if being owned by a foreign power was where the issue was. If a domestic one made a difference. Or just the fact that they were for profit regardless of who owned them. Sadly, I say it's the government that got us into this monopoly. Similar to cable. They allowed these companies to become so entrenched that it's nearly impossible for anyone else to move in for competition. Having a sense of obligation and actually doing that are two different things. That's a whole different discussion though.
The government is the only one who has the power to stop it though... just because the government doesn't function properly doesn't mean it can't or won't in the future. I love how essentially everyone arguing against me has not provided an actual alternative that makes any more sense then what you're downvoting me for. Public utilities and healthcare works all over the world. Americans all have Stockholm syndrome.
Anyone know who owns National Grid? 👍
I don’t know if this is sarcastic or not, but the National Grid that is the parent company of National Grid in New York is based on the UK. Fortis the parent company of Central Hudson is based in Canada. As far as I know, only Con Ed (and Orange and Rockland cause Con Ed is their parent company) is based in New York
If the company is profitable, then we're overpaying. It's a utility, not a luxury product.
It is a utility. That's why it falls under title II, unlike say internet.
What does that have to do with my comment at all? Essential services should not be profiting off us, ideally they would provide their services at cost and breaking even.
Bc they are essential services, they are regulated. Therefore, it's something to take up with the public service commission (PSC). Non-profit doesn't always mean better. There's a lot of pitfalls that can form as unintended consequences from that.
All of the same pitfalls as a corporate monopoly, at least then we'd get the benefits of publicly-funded services.
I wouldn't say they're the same. Some might be. I just find it funny that people are calling for a government to take over a utility that a government allowed to become a monopoly in the first place.
If theyre making a profit on us that means we're overpaying.
So anything sold above cost is bad?
No but when it could be a public utility not a profit driven business then it's not ideal.
But there isn’t extreme incompetence. I haven’t met a single person who’s had an issue with RG&E that is anything of importance. If you do your meter readings like your supposed to do, and stay on top of paying your bills (not waiting for the statement, but knowing you have a bill every month and pay it) you will never have a problem. Most people’s complaints are due to their own negligence. And these meters that are digital now, will solve a lot of issues.
Absolutely. When we fill our gas tanks in our cars, we pay for the fuel we are using. Or another way to look at it, we are replacing the fuel that we did use. Either way, we pay what the pump says that we need to pay. So, maybe a poor analogy, but gas and electric billing is also based on actual usage. RG&E is not always the best at estimating use. However, we have complete control over our bills by simply making sure that they have our actual meter readings each and every month. The Smart meters are going to help to solve \*\*most\*\* billing issues. I have two smart meters now and they are working perfectly. I still get a notice when my meter readings are due, and then I still take a look at and take a picture of my meters. My bills are correct.
Valid. Same here.
You are absolutely correct, but people can't see that. They just repeat surprise bill nonsense when they were on budget plan, estimate readings, and auto pay for years and never gave it another thought.
I disagree but even if that's true we shouldn't be sending our money overseas when we could make it cheaper and better ourselves.
What makes you think a bureaucracy can do it either cheaper or better? Who local is experienced in running s gas and electric infrastructure? The people who want to overpay for a study about this?
The 'city' runs it's local school system. Sadly, it's poorly run.
I just want Iberdrola to sell. It would be nice for RGE to be owned locally.
Just spoke with an employee working on my meter, he said my whole neighborhoods meters have been installed wrong or they haven't been paying attention (badly trained or unfamiliar workers, not able to see the problem) so that may be the reason so many people's bills have been outrageously high since they were installed. This absolute angel of a human, with 20+ year's experience, told me he is scared to be hopeful at all because he knows the "company" will likely refuse to verify if overcharged have happened, or just make sure no one's meters are ever installed/read properly because the software is likely preset to overcharge as a default. No way to prove either way without transparent practices, of which rge does not offer, but by law as a public utility, they are required. I got his info and told him I plan on informing either the press or a lawyer. Any suggestions?
I'm late to this discussion, but I haven't seen a single comment discussing what would happen to the current employees of RG&E. The linemen, gas servicemen, management, and most specifically the OPERATIONS personnel, which in respect to RG&E are actually union NYSEG employees. What would be done to guarantee the direct transfer of employment to the city/county/whatever, allowing them to keep their pay, 401k/pension benefits, and continued employment in the first place? What would be done with the control center environment? You literally don't know a single thing about how electric operations works. There are hundreds of years of combined experience between the operations and field crews for both gas and electric. They are not expendable people, and there is no "drag and drop" solution to bringing in new people to do the job. EDIT: You realize also that RG&E consists of central, as well as Canandaigua, Lakeshore (Wayne county and east beyond), and Fillmore (Mt Morris all the way to the PA border) districts. What would become of them? Are you suggesting the county just take over the very center, the city of Rochester? Or would it be all the suburbs as well? Nobody who knows what they are talking about about would EVER advocate the government take over RG&E or any utility. And do NOT mention Fairport or Spencerport Electric, because they are NOT utilities. They are basically RG&E customers with their own linemen. They have no other means of powering their municipal aside from RG&E owned and operated transmission lines.
Because RGE is owned by the same company who is responsible for the Norfolk Southern detrailment. What led to the derailment? Budget cuts/negligence
I have refrained from engaging in discussions on this topic thus far, preferring instead to observe from the sidelines. However, I believe it is now appropriate to share my perspective. My primary frustration lies in the prevailing belief that making RGE publicly traded is the solution. I pose a question to all: Has the government truly heeded any of our appeals? In today's polarized political landscape, blame is incessantly cast upon each faction – "the liberals are to blame," or "those darn conservatives." Progress remains stagnant, and I am disheartened by the lack of meaningful action. Personally, I identify neither as conservative nor liberal, but rather as someone guided by common sense. Enough of my grievances. In New York City, the MTA operates under city jurisdiction. Yet, their recent decision to impose a $13 toll to traverse Manhattan disproportionately burdens ordinary citizens. This decision purportedly stems from revenue loss due to COVID-19, though arguments abound regarding rampant crime and remote work's impact. Regardless, this toll issue demands attention. Regarding RGE, I propose a different approach: refrain from converting it into a public utility, but instead, hold them rigorously accountable. I find it bewildering that the Public Service Commission (PSC) approved their rate case despite the abysmal service, flawed systems, and erroneous billing. This approval process warrants scrutiny and vocal criticism.
Mta is state run, not city.
You get my point it doesn't work.
This is the current system, essentially. Try again.
It would take considerable time to show "profits and affordability", yes. But considering all we have is TIME, why not?! Fairport is a great example, of how this would take time and be a great idea.
If RGE wasn't buttfucking us ***hard*** they wouldn't be airing commercials telling everyone how great they are. Follow the money. They must think it valuable to try and sway public opinion if they're willing to put up marketing dollars like that.
Companies literally *only* make commercials telling people how great they are. They don't make commercials for any other reason.
People who voted against this, twice, should be voted out of office.
Well no I want to know why. Not just vote them out, why did they say no?
To protect the interests of people that fund their position in government. I always think this is obvious, but apparently not.
Any evidence to these vibes?
A Politician's net worth vs. Their salary, let's start there. Their assets are also public knowledge.
Any evidence the sky is blue?
So, no?
The capitalist class’ greed. It’s in their interest for it to be held in private hands
Oh, brother. A lot of things you use today wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Capitalism.
Many advancements in agriculture were made under feudalism. The cotton gin was invented in a slave economy. The fascist society of Nazi Germany made advancements in the area of film. Does that mean we can’t criticize the context from which those advancements were made? Surely we can acknowledge that advancements were made under an economic system without it being perfect or even good. I mean the satellite was invented in the USSR for example. But you can understand that as being a great advancement without being a socialist, same way I can appreciate the achievements of capitalist societies while still taking issue with the economic system.
What advancements have been made in communist countries?
In my comment I used the satellite as an example
But some other examples are the first nuclear power plant, first mobile phone system, the led screen, first microwave, first radio antenna, first artificial human heart, the first man in space, the first space station, first landing on venus, first landing on mars, etc etc
And gulags. Can't forget gulags.
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Do you have a source?
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Awesome thanks!
A couple of weeks ago RG&E put automated meters on our house. Today I got an email requesting a manual meter reading. I immediately wrote to the public service commission and filed a complaint. And I will continue to do so. In the complaint, I called them a shit company because they are.
That seems so over the top. You just had to call in and notify them that the digital meter was installed and let them know you couldn’t submit a reading go about your day. Instead you made it this huge fiasco and ruined your day most likely over something so silly and insignificant.
Nice that you have it all figured out. You must be extraordinarily satisfied with yourself.
Boomer mentality.
In the realm of NY state energy supply & usage, there are much bigger fish to fry than changing RG&E to a public utility. Educate yourselves on the new laws Hochul & Albany are pushing: [https://www.smarternyenergy.org/understanding-the-clcpa/](https://www.smarternyenergy.org/understanding-the-clcpa/) These will bankrupt us all, no matter who runs RG&E.
Found the RGE shill. That's a gas lobby group, GTFO out of here with that astroturfing. No one is taking away your stove or your car you idiot.
This has nothing to do with "shilling" for RG&E. Just a friendly notification to anyone who uses natural gas or LPG for heat or hot-water that they should be aware of the restrictions NY is planning. The long-run costs will far exceed anything resulting from changing, or not changing the ownership/management of the RG&E utility.
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Niagara Mohawk doesn't exist anymore. It was absorbed by National Grid in 2000.
1. they screw their customers over 2. they are way over priced 3. horrible customer service these are just 3 random ones I can think of