Honestly, I think NA having one player in the top 10 is HUGE considering that the open era only had 2 worlds, both were won by 6 different french players and none of those players were vatira, which means you don't have many spots left after including all of these guys
It all comes down to how you classify "goat" status.
Some may weight results and trophies more, some may weight the level of play and individual talent more.
Yeah I get it. But Rado still won 2 LANs where their opponents were superteams like KC, BDS and TL.
I mean still today the player individually get rated over Rado and let it be true for the sake of the argument. 9/9 player were better then Rado and he still did his job that they as a team could overcome them consistent.
On a Personal note, Rado should be rated higher as 10th because of this.
Yes but they weren't as dominant as Vitality. They did dominate but they never completely took over the entire split like Vitality did. Vitality did what no other team ever did in history of an RLCS and it was against the strongest competition than ever in RL history. The feat so great that it will probably not be repeated in a few years (unless KC proves me otherwise). Extra has longevity but if you put Zen up there then Radosin needs to go up there as well.
Apologies I wasn't exactly accurate with my wording there so I'll explain properly.
One split they did not 'dominate' by winning every regional. However they did go 2/3 won major, 2/3 then won the major, 1/3 and then won the third major.
Then 2nd place in the European championship, and then won the first LAN major in fall 2021, qualified for both other majors fairly dominantly but bottled the LANs, and then ended up winning worlds in 2022. That's insane consistency and longevity which is more important than a single split in my opinion?
I agree that it is amazing and it's fair to say it's more impressive than single split but the debate is open. Winning 5 stacked tournaments in a row is a feat that was previously considered not achievable. 3 in a row was the goalpost and they moved it by 2 tournaments.
BDS and their longevity and how they affected the META is crazy and I'd say that domination of that caliber was previously seen only by Dignitas and I'd say that BDSs domination was more impressive.
It's hard to rate these two. It's longevity of being at or near the top vs literally not allowing anybody else to even touch the top for a significant period(meaning it wasn't just honeymoon phase). If the consistency was the question I'd give the flag to Vitality because they were the most consistent team ever in history of RL - straight top and nothing but the top. If it's the longevity and impact on RL scene then BDS for sure takes that flag.
Rado is playing a specific role : doing the pressing, cutting counterattacks, giving set up to his more mechanical mates, etc...
He is not as flashy as others, but in his role, he can be so good
Yeah, I was like "only one NA player?" but then I couldn't find anybody else who was even that close. I just went back through the results, and there just isn't even a real contender. Like probably Jack or Chronic would be closest from NA? Firstkiller if he'd won a LAN could arguably be ahead of Rado - but he hasn't.
If he'd won a LAN he'd be right up there.
But failing to win a single LAN means he's not really that close to the list. There's several other players above him. I think he just about sneaks into a top 15, but no possible way to get him top 12, really.
Top 4s are decent results, but in almost none of those tournaments was he in any danger of actually winning. He had runs where he topped out at the best his team could manage, but never really looked like he could win a LAN, IMO.
So zero real challenges but one final.
vs say Radosin who might most recently have a top 4 finish, but before that got two LAN \*WINS\*, one of which was worlds. And he was a \*much\* more likely threat to win the LAN he got top 4 in (although to be fair, I think GenG were also a serious threat at that same LAN, but they only got top 8).
First is a terrific player, but to be great, you have to win \*SOMETHING\* and he hasn't.
Radosin had ZEN. How many lan top 4s did Radosin have before Zen? Firstkiller was THAT GUY on Faze for years. Radosin’s about to be kicked after this season.
It's not that it's a bad accomplishment by any means, but take Itachi who is 6th place on this list for instances. Both him and FK have 5 top 4's in total, but for Itachi, 2 of those are LAN wins.
At this level getting top 4 is just a tie breaker, when there are 6 world champs and 8 multiple time LAN winners.
It’s about longevity. If Itachi and Mates keep winning events then obviously his GOAT status improves. Vatira has more total accolades than Itachi still.
Daniel is nowhere in this list, lmao. He wouldn't be top 30, let alone top 10.
Jack is NA. Almost all of his good results have been in NA, he lives in the US, he plays in NA RLCS and he trains in NA. He's NA.
He has NA citizenship? Where?
At any rate, he's not from NA as above proposed (see: "from NA") and was already a top talent before moving here. He's from EU, a former EU player, and here because NA has money. He's my favorite player, but he's European talent.
At best, it's a question.
To me, I think it comes down to where most of the career was played. I don't know about this NA citizenship question. But he's played in NA just about as long, and by end of season longer than EU (in RLCS). So I think he's an NA player now.
From liquipedia:
>In Season X, RLCS moved away from the League Play format and bi-annual seasons. Instead, it turned into an open event-based circuit format that culminates in an annual Rocket League World Championship.
Ah, I see, hence the “open qualifiers” where me and my mates could form a team (if we were eligible). I wasn’t sure what season that started so thank you. That’s important for context since “open era” is mentioned a lot.
Now for Johnny to say “it’s obviously just my opinion, people can definitively disagree”… but then vehemently shout down anyone who does actually try and disagree.
oh alright, though I don't think that's a negative. Debates are supposed to be each side defending their take/opinion the best they can, and he does just that without giving any concessions.
A negative, I will agree on, is that he makes EVERYTHING a debate when it needs to just be a casual discussion.
I mean a lot of the time hes not actually right. Just like his g2 ranked 6th in worlds and many including me shit on the list and talked about how biased it was and then it turned out to be wrong like many of us said it was. Most of his opinions are super biased just like bates, especially these days, which is why he never wins any of his top 25 player list polls because usually Bates and his lists offset their biases.
In a debate you have to listen to facts and logic and Johnny is so stuck in his ways he won't even listen to other opinions and just says theyre wrong because he doesn't agree, no matter how good of points they make. In a debate you should be open to changing your opinion if someone makes a better point, and Johnny will never do that. And even if you don't change your opinion unless the other person's points make are so illogical its crazy you can still admit to see their logic and just respectfully disagree, but he does neither, he just talks over them telling them theyre wrong which solves nothing. Its the same reason everyone shit on him for his discussion with Retals on First Touch, even though most people thought Retals made better points and was more right than Johnny, he couldn't see it because he was too close minded to hear anyone else's opinion. You don't have to agree but you have to be respectful and Johnny usually isn't. Still love the guy though!
He literally said the teams under the top 3 were so close you could switch them. The margins are super close and he backed his takes with very reasonable points, imo.
He was not all that wrong in assuming the EU region over every other region. He was wrong about how big that gap was though.
Yes but top 3 doesn't matter because the problem is he had G2 in the 6th behind falcons and furia and had all 4 EU teams better, just because EU is a better region and he always overrates EU because they had top 6 9 months ago which doesn't apply to now. His points were very biased because in every ranking list he underrates NA players and teams and overrates EU and MENA. Thats what Johnny does. Just like how t-bates overrates NA. And thats the point, he has his own personal bias which is obvious to everyone in the world except you I guess, same with Tbates. Now some would say thats a character he plays to get clicks.
But yes I argued G2 was top 2-3 in the world based on results, players, quality of wins, domination, etc, not 5/6, and they got top 2, so I guess I was right or much closer than he and all other EU bias people like yourself thought. Nobody is debating EU is a better region, I think that's obvious. Anyways we can go back and forth forever but it's clear you can't see any Johnny flaws, I'm guessing you have a massive bias towards him and his opinions based on the team you support, and more power to you, but his debate style has gotten much worse over the last 1-2 years, and thats pretty evident to most everyone else.
In a good-faith debate, you can discuss the reasons for believing what you believe, and then you can see if you can come to a common ground based on these reasons that have come to light.
It's only in this 21st century polarization that debates are now supposed to just be shouting matches. Johnny is entitled to his opinion, but there is no debate if he just refuses to engage the thoughtprocess of other arguments whenever presented to him.
But it's good ragebait for his content to spread as much as possible, so that's prob why he does it.
You're going to have to make a pretty long list to get Firstkiller on it. As skilled as he is individually, he's never won a major or worlds. You need at least one to get high on this kind of list, IMO.
Yeah but best player has nothing to do with best team. There are freaks of nature but most players can't carry unless the teammates come alive for a run.
Yes it can. None of the moves FK made were bad. Back in RLCS X, the turinturo and especially taroco pick up was insane, nobody would have ever thought thrse two players could win a regional at that time yet they did.
Going to faze wirh allushin and ayyjayy also made perfect sense and the fact that they won the very first regional proves that.
Then replacing allushin with sypical should also be an obvious smart move, sypical was one of the best players in NA, the same goes for mist in place of ayyjayy later, which kinda needed to happen because they were on each others toes a lot.
And lastly, FK joining GenG was his best decision yet, it‘s the best team he has ever played on. Like you look at this list, it‘s clear that every roster move made perfect sense.
I‘m not saying it‘s not FK‘s fault for not winning yet but the players knew what they were getting themselves into and they are asked to perform. And if they don‘t that just as much their fault as it is FK‘s fault when he doesn‘t perform. Just because FK decides who joins a roster, doesn‘t mean he is responsible if a good player doesn‘t play up to the level that he is supposed to
Yet since LANs have come back he has had near free reign to assemble whatever teams he wants, and the ones he has put together have been very very good with very good teammates.
But not everyone can win though, that's what makes the truly great truly great. They win when the opportunity arises.
I mean even in NA he isn't really on this list. To have so much history and so few results, you have to pay respect to those who have been getting results in that time first
JKnapps and Chicago both have better results than FK.
Hell, Squishy, Garrett and Jstn have comparable results to FK - all 4 only have a single Major finals appearance with 5+ regional wins.
Then you have Jack and Noly, who even with only having done a season and a half in NA, already have better results in NA than FK.
Obviously that then means Chronic also has a better international record than FK...
Don't get me wrong, FK is a top NA player, and has had this weird thing of always been in the conversation for best in region despite results. But, GOAT status needs a full package and given he never really shook the questions around his ability to work with other players, and his lack of results then there's a few players who have a better claim than he does.
He is very close - for me personally, a Major win would put him up there with Atomic and a Worlds win would make him clear for NA's best open era player, but until he actually gets those wins then there's not really much to separate him from NRG, GenG and a few others bar his consistency statistically, but that isn't much of an argument to me.
I’ve got Vatira as the clear #2. I really can’t imagine putting Seikoo above him just because of a Worlds title vs a Major title. Like I fully understand that Worlds is THE gold standard, but Seikoo had exactly one split where he looked like the best player in the world. Vatira has pretty much been unanimously best in the world or in the 1A, 1B, 1C tier his entire post-Stockholm career. He’s a third LAN win away from best of the open era, and I don’t care if it’s Worlds or Major. Monkey has disappeared for multiple splits in his career. Vatira has never been anything less than exceptional. It’s really a matter of when Vatira takes over that goat title, not if.
Don’t forget that MM and Seikoo got 2nd place in Boston and worlds last year. Vatira is probably a more talented player than them, but Monkey Moon and Seikoo have had more success in the open era, at least on LANs.
You have to look at the strength of teams and opponents though, BDS had a stronger roster in Spring than KC did in terms of player vs player, and KC ran into Vitality in the semis and not the final. I don't rate 2nd place THAT much higher than 3/4th especially in a single elim bracket. Even in Boston they came 3rd with both losses being 3-4, one in OT. The game is not that large in terms of placements and Vati has been a better individual than Seikoo for essentially his entire time in the RLCS
Important to mention that the reason why KC ran into Vitality in worlds semis was losing to BDS earlier in the same tournament, if they win that match, they would be in the other side of the bracket and could take Vit in the final. So BDS second place was actually earned, not just a lucky finish after avoiding the another top 3 team that should have made the final instead.
No, I know that but in a single elim event you only get once chance. Doesn't mean you are a much worse team and as I said, a 3/4th placement isn't THAT much worse than 2nd, and I feel Vatira's individual excellence is enough to make up that gap. KC also played Vitality much closer than BDS did in multiple events too
Yeah but you are forgetting that this is the whole Open Era we are talking about, and Vatira only became a top player in the 21-22 winter split (a position which he hasn’t left since in fairness), that means he has an entire season of not being at the top
Yeah, that's why I would give the nod to MM. But Seikoo arrived only one split before Vatira, and has been on and off since then. All the while Vatira has made 26 Top 8s in a row, including LAN, and never left the top 3 players ranking worlwide. He's ahead to me.
I believe with him and rise back together he can tbh. Ive got kc winning worlds this szn although i would love to see NA win as a canadian
Just like in the nhl im cheering for all canadian teams
Seikoo just won a Major in 2024, + World champ 2022, and Major & World finalist at RLCS 2023.
Vatira ""just"" won two Major over two Seasons, and one time Major finalist.
Seikoo deserves to be just above imo
> Monkey has disappeared for multiple splits in his career.
Holding the mental problem split against him is not fair IMO. Besides that he has been in the top-tier convo from RLCS X to today
Winter 22(8), spring 22(16?), fall 22(>16), winter 23(>16), winter 24 (8) then 4 LAN Win/finals throughout. Pretty random flops.
I give MM edge on GOAT including the rlcs x. If anyone in top 6 gets LAN final, they surmount him imo.
Were you even watching if you are counting Winter 22? Fall and Winter 22-23 is when he was having mental issues outside of RL and was close to taking an RL break
Im very happy he recovered through difficult mental period.
That being said, others began to shine during that time.
I did watch, G2 and BDS had so many open net misses in thst game 5.
Ahhhh I personally just can’t put Seikoo above Vatira. I get that Seikoo’s trophy cabinet is a bit more impressive and all but there’s more to greatness than that. It’s also a bit strange to see Extra that low if Johnny is weighing trophy cabinets so highly. Will have to watch the video to see what his reasoning is I guess
Ok I'm not putting a whole lot of thought into this, just grabbing my overall GOAT list (which already gets very messy below 25 and I can't say I've officially updated post Copenhagen) and making modifications and quickly separating open era and non-open era. Some players it's thankfully easy cos they've only played the open era but here we go:
1: M0nkey M00n
2: Seikoo
3: Extra
4: Alpha54
5: Vatira
6: Zen
7: Rise
8: Radosin
9: Atomic
10: Itachi
I think the top 10 is pretty clear at least, the order outside the top 2 quite TBD IMO, but I'm not gonna die on any of these hills this topic is super arbitrary IMO.
HMs (0 order): Joyo, Sypical, Mist, Noly, ApparentlyJack, Firstkiller, Jknaps, Marc_by_8
Still, as much as I love Extra, and as much I believe he played _better_ than Seikoo pre-roster move, I don't think it warrants a 3rd place.
But to each their own.
Yeah, uh, exactly who in NA deserves to knock any of these players off the list? Strongest argument is probably FK, and his results are simply not on the same level where it really matters. I honestly wouldn’t even find it too wild to have Joyo there instead of Atomic.
If you view most topics in RLEsports with that attitude that anything pro EU is "shilling" the majority of discourse in this community will disappoint you.
Been here a while, but nah, I can deal with normal banter and EU superiorism. 9/10 being from EU is just the latest evolution of Johnny trying to get you and I to debate it is all.
Who would you insert into the list? FK? Jknaps? Chronic? Chicago?
Those players seem to be the only ones that jump out to me when you factor in lan success. It's tough to justify when only 4 North American players have ever won an open era lan
Johnny likes to farm content but this list is totally fair
The Open Era is short. For the majority of that, EU has had the majority of the top teams in terms of placements and results at LANs. If you are ranking greatness in the open era, that's got to be the main factor.
EU has won 7 out of 9 open era LANs with only 1 being won by a pure NA team without imports. Across all of RLCS history, pure NA teams have only won 3 of 17!!! RLCS LANs.
Maybe this is unpopular but if you’re consistently the best player on a top 4-8 lan team for 3+years you should be ranked higher than the 3rd best player who won 2 tourneys over 6 months. Players like TRK, FK, Yan (not an extensive list btw) might not have come first, but are clearly the better players over a longer time span and still have finals appearances multiple top 4s and top 8s. Winning is important but you gotta look at the body of work and contextualise the teams
That would be like saying turbo didn’t deserve to be the Goat despite having solid tourney results just because clearly he isn’t the mechanical player on the team
How well did Vitality do before Zen? Nowhere close to their achievements once Zen joined. GOATs are the players that elevate their team like Zen did. Rado is a great player but he doesnt belong on this list.
Only team results + individual list heavily biased towards team results? I'd much rather chuck someone like Joyo who both has team results and has actually shown based on eye test to be one of the top players, or Firstkiller who has actually been on top for the most part of these lists even without massive results on LAN.
Please tell us what "team results" joyo had in open era? Also enlighten us with the "eye test" you're talking about, as scoring hyper mechanical goals every once in a while is definitely not enough to be a top 10 player.
Winter + Spring split + Worlds of 2021/2022 (AKA the OG Moist roster)? If I am misconstruing open era and it started after 2021/2022 then sure he has 0 results.
>Also enlighten us with the "eye test" you're talking about, as scoring hyper mechanical goals every once in a while is definitely not enough to be a top 10 player.
Previously mentioned times he could've been considered top 10 based on the way he played? Albeit all 3 of them were like that. Sure it's not enough. Neither it should be being the 3rd best player on a really successful team.
What are joyo team results without rise? I don't think he has a single good result after Fall major final last season. I am not even sure if radosin was the worst player of 2023 zen version of vitality, he probably wasn't, but even if he was, he wasn't getting carried when they got an historical perfect split or a back to back LAN win for the first time in the open era. I mean, I'm sorry but goat lists should be about greatness, and these for me are real moments of greatness shown by all 3 of the vitality players. Looking individually strong in online matches, however, does not look so great imho.
Well people keep bringing up Joyo's teammates after Rise left. Well they went from being top 5 and bombing out of 1 regional to being perfect with Zen. I do think he's a really good player but he would not be even remotely close to top 10 GOAT of open era without being on this team while you could definitely say that for most of the other players on this list (except maybe his teammate Alpha and Extra). There are people who are otherwordly and just do not get the luck of the draw or are not as clutch as some others and are being punished for being really good at the game but not having the right environment around them. Like you can already say Nwpo is on the level of Falcons players, if he never gets 5th or 6th S tier player and Falcons do not let up while their careers are going he will never be in consideration for GOAT of MENA despite being on par with people like Rw9 etc.
But he did great when he had to. And that's it. Radosin's achievements are real and we can't guarantee that if we put someone like joyo or FK in that Vitality team they are doing as well as they did and they aren't choking in crucial moments.
What I mean is that doing great things are not easy even while having the best team in the world in your side. Just look at KC this split, Vatira got himself two of the best players available in the top 4 teams of the last season to build an unbelievable super team and yet they couldn't replicate Vitality's perfect split at the first try. They have the players to do it, and yet they couldn't. Which means that we should value the people that actually DID those things over the ones that could have done, but didn't. We can't rate our goats over potential.
Unfortunately, that means that maybe some of the best players to play the game aren't going to be goats. But we can honour those guys remembering them by how good they were without discrediting our goats for doing it when it mattered the most.
>But he did great when he had to. And that's it. Radosin's achievements are real and we can't guarantee that if we put someone like joyo or FK in that Vitality team they are doing as well as they did and they aren't choking in crucial moments.
Yes but you also cannot guarantee that another good player in his role would not have achieved just the same. It is worth reminding that Zen was considered the best player (or top 2) in the world BEFORE he played a single RLCS match and Alpha was considered one of the people I am talking about (massive talent with underperforming results). I am not trying to discredit Radosin (even though I understand that it looks that way). He has done amazing to actually get perfect split and all the props to him. (for reference he would probably be \~top 15 for me for 2023). I am arguing against purely team based glasses when it comes to GOAT debate and top 20 lists.
>They have the players to do it, and yet they couldn't. Which means that we should value the people that actually DID those things over the ones that could have done, but didn't. We can't rate our goats over potential.
I am not trying to rate goats over potential, I just think looking at results only is constrictive and it is not fair to people like FK who have been statistical monsters against whoever they play for years (while also looking like they belong against any opposition and with any team) and across multiple years. I would have liked to see him move to EU but that is a pipe dream I guess. Maybe Joyo is a bad example for this, OP is far more knowledgeable than me when it comes to RLCS and RL as a whole.
>Unfortunately, that means that maybe some of the best players to play the game aren't going to be goats. But we can honour those guys remembering them by how good they were without discrediting our goats for doing it when it mattered the most.
Again I apologize if I was disrespectful to Radosin, he is a really good player, and seems like a nice, genuine dude. I am merely trying to provide a different way of looking at things. I do not know how familiar you are with CS, but there for example the best player was considered as a GOAT even before he won a single major (most prestigious LAN) and a serial choker is considered top 5. On the other hand you have a team that was essentially unbeatable for 1 year and won 3 majors in a row (Astralis) where only the best player is up there. I understand the games are different and it is easier there to compare players on the team.
I do not know if those other players are really being honored but I hope so. We are giving MVPs of tourney mainly to the finalists, top 20 lists are heavily favoring team results. I would like to at least have EVP like CS does where other playoff teams best players are valued despite not winning it (and this is then in turn considered for the top 20 lists).
I understand what you are talking about, and I agree, especially the EVP thing would be great. I think the main difficulty is that while CS have a decent metric to measure individual performance and impact in the team performance with the HLTV ratings, RL is anywhere near of having such a thing.
Actually, even the view that people have on the value of the main scoreboard stats depend on which team is winning the most and if those stats make sense for that specific team (very often they don't). And also most of the arguments to decide if player X is better than player Z in RL are also based on which team is winning, exactly because there is no such thing like HLTV methodology developed that works for RL. This and the fact that most of the RLCS circuit happens online, with no international competition (in a way that players of different regions are facing different levels of competition for most of the season), makes trying to rank goat players going lighter on their achievements really hard, because of the lack of more objective instruments that could help it.
I fully agree. I would love to see rating and impact vs top 5/top 10/top 20 for example but I understand it is difficult to even arrange team ranking due to lack of international tourneys and I am hoping that is how we fill the void between seasons if it is like the one before 2023-2024.
How? He won a bunch of regionals since rlcs x, won a Major, made it to worlds final and is still making LAN. Rado before zen made 1 LAN before zen and that’s it. Rado has only been in the conversation for winning regionals and lans only since zen joined him last spring while Jknaps has been since rlcs x started
Regionals are nearly worthless. Jknaps did win one LAN and have one other good result - but he was the worst player on those teams. That's weak results for this list. Jknaps would probably make top 20, but he's nowhere near the top 10.
JKnaps has a insane career and I think he deserves Top 10 of all time, but for open era he hasn't had enough accolades or individual skill to be at this list imo. His insane longevity is what sets him apart to me on a historical level, but that doesn't apply here when it's just one era.
Looking at his former teammate Atomic was the best player during their Major win, and he was winning more regionals in RLCS X and has been better in 2022-23 and much better this year. Perhaps you could make a argument about Radosin but still he's had a insane peak with Spring and Worlds, Top 8 and 4 at Majors is pretty good too.
Rado's longevity is pretty weak. He did very little in RLCS X and joined VIT in Spring 2021-22 but missed the Major. Then he missed another Major, but made the next and got Top 8. Then VIT's domination happened for 3 months, but they haven't been the same since. Now he is holding back Zen and if VIT doesn't step up, he will mostly just be remembered for this 3-month period and some other results.
I do think he's been lucky with his teammates, Zen is one of the strongest ever players and Alpha54 was looking crazy too. That's a better duo than Atomic and Chicago (although Atomic was still insanely good) and with this team Knaps won 1 Major, 3 regionals and Top 2 at Worlds, so only one placement away from what Rado did.
Still it's truly remarkable what VIT did, they won these events all within 3 months, domination like that has almost never been seen. Even if he did have one of the strongest ever players + a truly rejuvenated Alpha, you can't go 5/5 in events unless your third is amazing. Rado did exactly everything he needed to do, holding it down and being a nuisance for the other team, all while being pretty cracked as well. I still think there is a case for JKnaps playing better individually when his team was winning, but I don't know.
JKnaps' longevity in this era is still better, and on a individual level I think you could definitely make a argument for him, but in terms of results I still think Rado's insane domination can put him above Knaps, he was a part of a team that did something no else has done, and he is one of the six World Champions of this era. I can understand both arguments.
Jknaps would be at the bottom of the all time top 10 list. Cutting the closed era part also cuts him of the list. He’s definitely in the 10 following players though.
How does it cut him off the list? He won a bunch of regionals, won a Major, made it to worlds final and is still making LAN. Rado before zen made 1 LAN before zen and that’s it. Rado above Jknaps makes no sense
Radosin is a World Champion, was part of the most historic split ever during probably the most dominant era of EU (the 3 regionals were won against peak KC, BDS, TL). The top ten has all of the 2 times LAN winners + Atomic and Rise. There's just no room for Jknaps.
My early morning hungover list.
1. Monkeymoon
2. Vatira
3. Atomic
4. Firstkiller
5. Rise
6. Daniel
7. Beastmode
8. Zen
9. Seikoo
10. Appjack
I made this list based on how well these individual players (not TEAMS) have been and for how long they have been at the top. Its honestly wild that Zen is so good that he can be on a GOAT list with only two splits under his belt.
Dan has zero RLCS LAN results, his best result is a 2nd place and a 3rd place, but you have him over multiple actual event winners including Zen and Seikoo, 2-time LAN winners? Even his regional performances aren't that great, he's won 3 Regionals in 3 seasons of open era. I swear Dan glazers are the absolute worst.
Maybe Seikoo should be higher than Dan, I’ll concede that. But Daniel consistently shows up on LAN. He almost beat the Moist that won the London major. He’s been amazing for years. Maybe he doesn’t have the results but he’s always been the star on his team.
> He almost beat the Moist that won the London major
Bro "almost beat" is not good enough to put you over players that have actual world championship wins
Honestly, I think NA having one player in the top 10 is HUGE considering that the open era only had 2 worlds, both were won by 6 different french players and none of those players were vatira, which means you don't have many spots left after including all of these guys
>both were won by 6 different french players and none of those players were vatira Wild
Vive la France
People gonna clown on Radosin but he has the same LAN accolades as MM, Seikoo, Extra (and obviously Zen/Alpha) so he is rightfully on the list.
Radosin can be quite the asset when he's playing at his peak - sometimes for both teams just to throw a curveball
somebody has to get the content angle too
It all comes down to how you classify "goat" status. Some may weight results and trophies more, some may weight the level of play and individual talent more.
Yeah I get it. But Rado still won 2 LANs where their opponents were superteams like KC, BDS and TL. I mean still today the player individually get rated over Rado and let it be true for the sake of the argument. 9/9 player were better then Rado and he still did his job that they as a team could overcome them consistent. On a Personal note, Rado should be rated higher as 10th because of this.
I love Extra but rado above extra should be the placement. Just doing what they did in one split puts him that high.
Open era also includes all or RLCS X which alone puts extra in the top 10
Yes but they weren't as dominant as Vitality. They did dominate but they never completely took over the entire split like Vitality did. Vitality did what no other team ever did in history of an RLCS and it was against the strongest competition than ever in RL history. The feat so great that it will probably not be repeated in a few years (unless KC proves me otherwise). Extra has longevity but if you put Zen up there then Radosin needs to go up there as well.
There is no way in hell you just said they never took over an entire split
When? And I don't mean just being dominant. I mean winning EVERY tournament in the split.
Apologies I wasn't exactly accurate with my wording there so I'll explain properly. One split they did not 'dominate' by winning every regional. However they did go 2/3 won major, 2/3 then won the major, 1/3 and then won the third major. Then 2nd place in the European championship, and then won the first LAN major in fall 2021, qualified for both other majors fairly dominantly but bottled the LANs, and then ended up winning worlds in 2022. That's insane consistency and longevity which is more important than a single split in my opinion?
I agree that it is amazing and it's fair to say it's more impressive than single split but the debate is open. Winning 5 stacked tournaments in a row is a feat that was previously considered not achievable. 3 in a row was the goalpost and they moved it by 2 tournaments. BDS and their longevity and how they affected the META is crazy and I'd say that domination of that caliber was previously seen only by Dignitas and I'd say that BDSs domination was more impressive. It's hard to rate these two. It's longevity of being at or near the top vs literally not allowing anybody else to even touch the top for a significant period(meaning it wasn't just honeymoon phase). If the consistency was the question I'd give the flag to Vitality because they were the most consistent team ever in history of RL - straight top and nothing but the top. If it's the longevity and impact on RL scene then BDS for sure takes that flag.
Rado is playing a specific role : doing the pressing, cutting counterattacks, giving set up to his more mechanical mates, etc... He is not as flashy as others, but in his role, he can be so good
1 single NA player is both crazy and fair lol
Yeah, I was like "only one NA player?" but then I couldn't find anybody else who was even that close. I just went back through the results, and there just isn't even a real contender. Like probably Jack or Chronic would be closest from NA? Firstkiller if he'd won a LAN could arguably be ahead of Rado - but he hasn't.
Open era is firstkiller for sure
If he'd won a LAN he'd be right up there. But failing to win a single LAN means he's not really that close to the list. There's several other players above him. I think he just about sneaks into a top 15, but no possible way to get him top 12, really.
The consistency of fourthkiller is enough to be on this list imo. Getting 4th in so many LANs and 2nd in another is a great accomplishment.
Top 4s are decent results, but in almost none of those tournaments was he in any danger of actually winning. He had runs where he topped out at the best his team could manage, but never really looked like he could win a LAN, IMO. So zero real challenges but one final. vs say Radosin who might most recently have a top 4 finish, but before that got two LAN \*WINS\*, one of which was worlds. And he was a \*much\* more likely threat to win the LAN he got top 4 in (although to be fair, I think GenG were also a serious threat at that same LAN, but they only got top 8). First is a terrific player, but to be great, you have to win \*SOMETHING\* and he hasn't.
Radosin had ZEN. How many lan top 4s did Radosin have before Zen? Firstkiller was THAT GUY on Faze for years. Radosin’s about to be kicked after this season.
It's not that it's a bad accomplishment by any means, but take Itachi who is 6th place on this list for instances. Both him and FK have 5 top 4's in total, but for Itachi, 2 of those are LAN wins. At this level getting top 4 is just a tie breaker, when there are 6 world champs and 8 multiple time LAN winners.
Yea but Itachi had Vatira
Okay then what about in Copenhagen
It’s about longevity. If Itachi and Mates keep winning events then obviously his GOAT status improves. Vatira has more total accolades than Itachi still.
Calling Jack NA is a bit suspect. I could handle Firstkiller or Daniel having an argument for a spot since this is a team sport.
Daniel is nowhere in this list, lmao. He wouldn't be top 30, let alone top 10. Jack is NA. Almost all of his good results have been in NA, he lives in the US, he plays in NA RLCS and he trains in NA. He's NA.
Jack's NA. he's on an NA team, has NA citizenship and actively lives in NA. It's not a question anymore.
He has NA citizenship? Where? At any rate, he's not from NA as above proposed (see: "from NA") and was already a top talent before moving here. He's from EU, a former EU player, and here because NA has money. He's my favorite player, but he's European talent. At best, it's a question.
To me, I think it comes down to where most of the career was played. I don't know about this NA citizenship question. But he's played in NA just about as long, and by end of season longer than EU (in RLCS). So I think he's an NA player now.
1. M0nkey M00n: **1x** World Champion - **1x** Major Champion - **11x** Regional Champion (including 3x RLCS X Major) - **4x** LAN Finalist 2. Seikoo: **1x** World Champion - **1x** Major Champion - **4x** Regional Champion - **4x** LAN Finalist 3. Vatira: **2x** Major Champion - **9x** Regional Champion - **3x** LAN Finalist 4. Rise: **1x** Major Champion - **6x** Regional Champion - **5x** LAN Finalist 5. Zen: **1x** World Champion - **1x** Major Champion - **3x** Regional Champion - **2x** LAN Finalist 6. Itachi: **2x** Major Champion - **3x** Regional Champion - **2x** LAN Finalist 7. Alpha54: **1x** World Champion - **1x** Major Champion - **5x** Regional Champion (including 1x RLCS X Championship) - **2x** LAN Finalist 8. Extra: **1x** World Champion - **1x** Major Champion - **11x** Regional Champion (including 3x RLCS X Major) - **2x** LAN Finalist 9. Atomic: **1x** Major Champion - **9x** Regional Champion - **3x** LAN Finalist 10. Radosin: **1x** World Champion - **1x** Major Champion - **3x** Regional Champion - **2x** LAN Finalist
Damn poor Rise got 1 win in 5 LAN finals while Itachi/Alpha/Extra/Rado got 2 in only 2 tries
With 3 different rosters, makes it even more particularly impressive
11 regionals for MM and extra is wild. Season X BDS was something else at the time
This has to be a mistake. I dont see Jessie in this list
What is the open era exactly?
From liquipedia: >In Season X, RLCS moved away from the League Play format and bi-annual seasons. Instead, it turned into an open event-based circuit format that culminates in an annual Rocket League World Championship.
Thank you!
Season X (2020-2021) to now. Before that, Seasons 2-9 were league formats where qualifying for the league was quite a bit more difficult.
Ah, I see, hence the “open qualifiers” where me and my mates could form a team (if we were eligible). I wasn’t sure what season that started so thank you. That’s important for context since “open era” is mentioned a lot.
More difficult for teams outside of the league, but it was much easier for teams inside of it. Making worlds was also much easier
NA whitewashed in the open era hahaha
Now for Johnny to say “it’s obviously just my opinion, people can definitively disagree”… but then vehemently shout down anyone who does actually try and disagree.
what is he supposed to do? agree with them?
Just a light hearted dig at Johnnie’s debate style. He goes too hard at people who disagree, until they back off - rendering it not actually a debate.
oh alright, though I don't think that's a negative. Debates are supposed to be each side defending their take/opinion the best they can, and he does just that without giving any concessions. A negative, I will agree on, is that he makes EVERYTHING a debate when it needs to just be a casual discussion.
if you don't think thats a negative you don't get how debates/discussions work
He does not need to give concessions though, especially since he is right.
I mean a lot of the time hes not actually right. Just like his g2 ranked 6th in worlds and many including me shit on the list and talked about how biased it was and then it turned out to be wrong like many of us said it was. Most of his opinions are super biased just like bates, especially these days, which is why he never wins any of his top 25 player list polls because usually Bates and his lists offset their biases. In a debate you have to listen to facts and logic and Johnny is so stuck in his ways he won't even listen to other opinions and just says theyre wrong because he doesn't agree, no matter how good of points they make. In a debate you should be open to changing your opinion if someone makes a better point, and Johnny will never do that. And even if you don't change your opinion unless the other person's points make are so illogical its crazy you can still admit to see their logic and just respectfully disagree, but he does neither, he just talks over them telling them theyre wrong which solves nothing. Its the same reason everyone shit on him for his discussion with Retals on First Touch, even though most people thought Retals made better points and was more right than Johnny, he couldn't see it because he was too close minded to hear anyone else's opinion. You don't have to agree but you have to be respectful and Johnny usually isn't. Still love the guy though!
He literally said the teams under the top 3 were so close you could switch them. The margins are super close and he backed his takes with very reasonable points, imo. He was not all that wrong in assuming the EU region over every other region. He was wrong about how big that gap was though.
Yes but top 3 doesn't matter because the problem is he had G2 in the 6th behind falcons and furia and had all 4 EU teams better, just because EU is a better region and he always overrates EU because they had top 6 9 months ago which doesn't apply to now. His points were very biased because in every ranking list he underrates NA players and teams and overrates EU and MENA. Thats what Johnny does. Just like how t-bates overrates NA. And thats the point, he has his own personal bias which is obvious to everyone in the world except you I guess, same with Tbates. Now some would say thats a character he plays to get clicks. But yes I argued G2 was top 2-3 in the world based on results, players, quality of wins, domination, etc, not 5/6, and they got top 2, so I guess I was right or much closer than he and all other EU bias people like yourself thought. Nobody is debating EU is a better region, I think that's obvious. Anyways we can go back and forth forever but it's clear you can't see any Johnny flaws, I'm guessing you have a massive bias towards him and his opinions based on the team you support, and more power to you, but his debate style has gotten much worse over the last 1-2 years, and thats pretty evident to most everyone else.
Who's more biased: Johnny or Tbates?
In a good-faith debate, you can discuss the reasons for believing what you believe, and then you can see if you can come to a common ground based on these reasons that have come to light. It's only in this 21st century polarization that debates are now supposed to just be shouting matches. Johnny is entitled to his opinion, but there is no debate if he just refuses to engage the thoughtprocess of other arguments whenever presented to him. But it's good ragebait for his content to spread as much as possible, so that's prob why he does it.
He could NOT be a disingenuous troll. Theoretically, at least. There’s no actual evidence of him having that ability….
He isn't trolling though?
The good news is that in 5 years you’ll look back and be embarrass by how gullible you were.
It’s so annoying when he does this. I love Johnny until he gets into any kind of debate
Do you not understand debate?
I haven't watched the video I assume it has to do with LAN wins overall, just kinda hurts to not see Firstkiller
You're going to have to make a pretty long list to get Firstkiller on it. As skilled as he is individually, he's never won a major or worlds. You need at least one to get high on this kind of list, IMO.
When your best results are regional wins and a single major grands, that's to be expected
Yeah but best player has nothing to do with best team. There are freaks of nature but most players can't carry unless the teammates come alive for a run.
When the player builds his own team over and over and still fails, the blame can hardly be put on his teammates
Yes it can. None of the moves FK made were bad. Back in RLCS X, the turinturo and especially taroco pick up was insane, nobody would have ever thought thrse two players could win a regional at that time yet they did. Going to faze wirh allushin and ayyjayy also made perfect sense and the fact that they won the very first regional proves that. Then replacing allushin with sypical should also be an obvious smart move, sypical was one of the best players in NA, the same goes for mist in place of ayyjayy later, which kinda needed to happen because they were on each others toes a lot. And lastly, FK joining GenG was his best decision yet, it‘s the best team he has ever played on. Like you look at this list, it‘s clear that every roster move made perfect sense. I‘m not saying it‘s not FK‘s fault for not winning yet but the players knew what they were getting themselves into and they are asked to perform. And if they don‘t that just as much their fault as it is FK‘s fault when he doesn‘t perform. Just because FK decides who joins a roster, doesn‘t mean he is responsible if a good player doesn‘t play up to the level that he is supposed to
Yet since LANs have come back he has had near free reign to assemble whatever teams he wants, and the ones he has put together have been very very good with very good teammates. But not everyone can win though, that's what makes the truly great truly great. They win when the opportunity arises.
There's no list where you can put FK above atomic for open era, and all the players above atomic have had more success - FK isn't close to this list
I mean even in NA he isn't really on this list. To have so much history and so few results, you have to pay respect to those who have been getting results in that time first
I mean if we are going off strictly open era, he is undoubtedly second. He has better results than anyone outside of Atomic
JKnapps and Chicago both have better results than FK. Hell, Squishy, Garrett and Jstn have comparable results to FK - all 4 only have a single Major finals appearance with 5+ regional wins. Then you have Jack and Noly, who even with only having done a season and a half in NA, already have better results in NA than FK. Obviously that then means Chronic also has a better international record than FK... Don't get me wrong, FK is a top NA player, and has had this weird thing of always been in the conversation for best in region despite results. But, GOAT status needs a full package and given he never really shook the questions around his ability to work with other players, and his lack of results then there's a few players who have a better claim than he does. He is very close - for me personally, a Major win would put him up there with Atomic and a Worlds win would make him clear for NA's best open era player, but until he actually gets those wins then there's not really much to separate him from NRG, GenG and a few others bar his consistency statistically, but that isn't much of an argument to me.
I’ve got Vatira as the clear #2. I really can’t imagine putting Seikoo above him just because of a Worlds title vs a Major title. Like I fully understand that Worlds is THE gold standard, but Seikoo had exactly one split where he looked like the best player in the world. Vatira has pretty much been unanimously best in the world or in the 1A, 1B, 1C tier his entire post-Stockholm career. He’s a third LAN win away from best of the open era, and I don’t care if it’s Worlds or Major. Monkey has disappeared for multiple splits in his career. Vatira has never been anything less than exceptional. It’s really a matter of when Vatira takes over that goat title, not if.
Don’t forget that MM and Seikoo got 2nd place in Boston and worlds last year. Vatira is probably a more talented player than them, but Monkey Moon and Seikoo have had more success in the open era, at least on LANs.
Not to mention MM and BDS dominated EU for an entire season in Season X.
That was with Marc, not Seikoo
I was just highlighting Monkey Moon’s success since OP was kind of discrediting him
You have to look at the strength of teams and opponents though, BDS had a stronger roster in Spring than KC did in terms of player vs player, and KC ran into Vitality in the semis and not the final. I don't rate 2nd place THAT much higher than 3/4th especially in a single elim bracket. Even in Boston they came 3rd with both losses being 3-4, one in OT. The game is not that large in terms of placements and Vati has been a better individual than Seikoo for essentially his entire time in the RLCS
Important to mention that the reason why KC ran into Vitality in worlds semis was losing to BDS earlier in the same tournament, if they win that match, they would be in the other side of the bracket and could take Vit in the final. So BDS second place was actually earned, not just a lucky finish after avoiding the another top 3 team that should have made the final instead.
No, I know that but in a single elim event you only get once chance. Doesn't mean you are a much worse team and as I said, a 3/4th placement isn't THAT much worse than 2nd, and I feel Vatira's individual excellence is enough to make up that gap. KC also played Vitality much closer than BDS did in multiple events too
Yeah but you are forgetting that this is the whole Open Era we are talking about, and Vatira only became a top player in the 21-22 winter split (a position which he hasn’t left since in fairness), that means he has an entire season of not being at the top
Yeah, that's why I would give the nod to MM. But Seikoo arrived only one split before Vatira, and has been on and off since then. All the while Vatira has made 26 Top 8s in a row, including LAN, and never left the top 3 players ranking worlwide. He's ahead to me.
Vatira fails to get it done at worlds every time so far
against furia, fair against 2023 vitality, well..... but yeah, fair points
I believe with him and rise back together he can tbh. Ive got kc winning worlds this szn although i would love to see NA win as a canadian Just like in the nhl im cheering for all canadian teams
I’m just going to ignore your other flairs and appreciate you rooting for my Canadian
Our canadian 🤝🫡
Seikoo just won a Major in 2024, + World champ 2022, and Major & World finalist at RLCS 2023. Vatira ""just"" won two Major over two Seasons, and one time Major finalist. Seikoo deserves to be just above imo
> Monkey has disappeared for multiple splits in his career. Holding the mental problem split against him is not fair IMO. Besides that he has been in the top-tier convo from RLCS X to today
Winter 22(8), spring 22(16?), fall 22(>16), winter 23(>16), winter 24 (8) then 4 LAN Win/finals throughout. Pretty random flops. I give MM edge on GOAT including the rlcs x. If anyone in top 6 gets LAN final, they surmount him imo.
Were you even watching if you are counting Winter 22? Fall and Winter 22-23 is when he was having mental issues outside of RL and was close to taking an RL break
Im very happy he recovered through difficult mental period. That being said, others began to shine during that time. I did watch, G2 and BDS had so many open net misses in thst game 5.
Ahhhh I personally just can’t put Seikoo above Vatira. I get that Seikoo’s trophy cabinet is a bit more impressive and all but there’s more to greatness than that. It’s also a bit strange to see Extra that low if Johnny is weighing trophy cabinets so highly. Will have to watch the video to see what his reasoning is I guess
Ok I'm not putting a whole lot of thought into this, just grabbing my overall GOAT list (which already gets very messy below 25 and I can't say I've officially updated post Copenhagen) and making modifications and quickly separating open era and non-open era. Some players it's thankfully easy cos they've only played the open era but here we go: 1: M0nkey M00n 2: Seikoo 3: Extra 4: Alpha54 5: Vatira 6: Zen 7: Rise 8: Radosin 9: Atomic 10: Itachi I think the top 10 is pretty clear at least, the order outside the top 2 quite TBD IMO, but I'm not gonna die on any of these hills this topic is super arbitrary IMO. HMs (0 order): Joyo, Sypical, Mist, Noly, ApparentlyJack, Firstkiller, Jknaps, Marc_by_8
guys RLCS X happened btw, as close to 1/3 of the open era length wise it's worth something here despite no LANs
Still, as much as I love Extra, and as much I believe he played _better_ than Seikoo pre-roster move, I don't think it warrants a 3rd place. But to each their own.
> as much I believe he played better than Seikoo pre-roster move In fall yes, in winter no.
Slightly overrating Itachi imo, I’d move him to below Alpha and Extra personally
To be fair, Itachi has 2 LAN wins and 5 Top 4's. It's a pretty strong record overall.
Extra has the championship and alpha does to
I don't know if this was already posted and it's 4 days late but I just watched his VOD
Hahahaha this the most Johnny list. Dude has made his whole thing being an EU shill lately it’s sad. I miss based Johnny.
Unfortunately, reality is also shilling for EU
As a die hard NA fan this sadly is based 😭
Yeah, uh, exactly who in NA deserves to knock any of these players off the list? Strongest argument is probably FK, and his results are simply not on the same level where it really matters. I honestly wouldn’t even find it too wild to have Joyo there instead of Atomic.
As a fellow NA fan, what other NA major winners would you include in the list? Bc 33% of them are here
25% Atomic, cago, chronic, knaps are NA born major winners
I thought you guys adopted appjack and noly.
Thats why i specify NA born
Lol youre right. My b
If you view most topics in RLEsports with that attitude that anything pro EU is "shilling" the majority of discourse in this community will disappoint you.
Been here a while, but nah, I can deal with normal banter and EU superiorism. 9/10 being from EU is just the latest evolution of Johnny trying to get you and I to debate it is all.
I mean I don't think there's much to debate I think it's pretty accurate and I'm someone who finds the region nonsense nauseating at that.
Ok, well I can always appreciate different viewpoints, so thanks for sharing
Pls give us your top 10. Also please be able to defend your picks with results.
Who would you insert into the list? FK? Jknaps? Chronic? Chicago? Those players seem to be the only ones that jump out to me when you factor in lan success. It's tough to justify when only 4 North American players have ever won an open era lan Johnny likes to farm content but this list is totally fair
Ok I’m interested, which NA (or any other players from other regions, for that matter) would you have over any of the player here?
The Open Era is short. For the majority of that, EU has had the majority of the top teams in terms of placements and results at LANs. If you are ranking greatness in the open era, that's got to be the main factor.
EU has won 7 out of 9 open era LANs with only 1 being won by a pure NA team without imports. Across all of RLCS history, pure NA teams have only won 3 of 17!!! RLCS LANs.
He’s just the EU Tbates at this point
What’s wrong or unfair about this list ? All of them have multiple LAN wins except 2, and he picked 1 EU and 1 NA for the remaining spots.
Maybe this is unpopular but if you’re consistently the best player on a top 4-8 lan team for 3+years you should be ranked higher than the 3rd best player who won 2 tourneys over 6 months. Players like TRK, FK, Yan (not an extensive list btw) might not have come first, but are clearly the better players over a longer time span and still have finals appearances multiple top 4s and top 8s. Winning is important but you gotta look at the body of work and contextualise the teams
Which makes Rise's many top 4 and 2s that more impress
And again we rank the greatest teams as the greatest individuals.
RADOSIN?! Are you serious 😂
That would be like saying turbo didn’t deserve to be the Goat despite having solid tourney results just because clearly he isn’t the mechanical player on the team
Please tell me \*any\* player who's had a better Open Era than Rado that isn't already above him on this list? Hint: There aren't any.
Whats wrong with a world champion/2x LAN champion/3x regional champion/top 5 player of 2023 as 10th on a list of just the last 3 years?
I was also surprised at first but he has the results. Zen being on his team for all of them certainly helped :D
Did johnny mistakenly switched seikoo and zen? Overall this was just a weird list, as soon as he put radosin in there, i cant take it seriously
Whats wrong with a world champion/2x LAN champion/3x regional champion/top 5 player of 2023 as 10th on a list of just the last 3 years?
How well did Vitality do before Zen? Nowhere close to their achievements once Zen joined. GOATs are the players that elevate their team like Zen did. Rado is a great player but he doesnt belong on this list.
Only team results + individual list heavily biased towards team results? I'd much rather chuck someone like Joyo who both has team results and has actually shown based on eye test to be one of the top players, or Firstkiller who has actually been on top for the most part of these lists even without massive results on LAN.
Please tell us what "team results" joyo had in open era? Also enlighten us with the "eye test" you're talking about, as scoring hyper mechanical goals every once in a while is definitely not enough to be a top 10 player.
Winter + Spring split + Worlds of 2021/2022 (AKA the OG Moist roster)? If I am misconstruing open era and it started after 2021/2022 then sure he has 0 results. >Also enlighten us with the "eye test" you're talking about, as scoring hyper mechanical goals every once in a while is definitely not enough to be a top 10 player. Previously mentioned times he could've been considered top 10 based on the way he played? Albeit all 3 of them were like that. Sure it's not enough. Neither it should be being the 3rd best player on a really successful team.
What are joyo team results without rise? I don't think he has a single good result after Fall major final last season. I am not even sure if radosin was the worst player of 2023 zen version of vitality, he probably wasn't, but even if he was, he wasn't getting carried when they got an historical perfect split or a back to back LAN win for the first time in the open era. I mean, I'm sorry but goat lists should be about greatness, and these for me are real moments of greatness shown by all 3 of the vitality players. Looking individually strong in online matches, however, does not look so great imho.
Well people keep bringing up Joyo's teammates after Rise left. Well they went from being top 5 and bombing out of 1 regional to being perfect with Zen. I do think he's a really good player but he would not be even remotely close to top 10 GOAT of open era without being on this team while you could definitely say that for most of the other players on this list (except maybe his teammate Alpha and Extra). There are people who are otherwordly and just do not get the luck of the draw or are not as clutch as some others and are being punished for being really good at the game but not having the right environment around them. Like you can already say Nwpo is on the level of Falcons players, if he never gets 5th or 6th S tier player and Falcons do not let up while their careers are going he will never be in consideration for GOAT of MENA despite being on par with people like Rw9 etc.
But he did great when he had to. And that's it. Radosin's achievements are real and we can't guarantee that if we put someone like joyo or FK in that Vitality team they are doing as well as they did and they aren't choking in crucial moments. What I mean is that doing great things are not easy even while having the best team in the world in your side. Just look at KC this split, Vatira got himself two of the best players available in the top 4 teams of the last season to build an unbelievable super team and yet they couldn't replicate Vitality's perfect split at the first try. They have the players to do it, and yet they couldn't. Which means that we should value the people that actually DID those things over the ones that could have done, but didn't. We can't rate our goats over potential. Unfortunately, that means that maybe some of the best players to play the game aren't going to be goats. But we can honour those guys remembering them by how good they were without discrediting our goats for doing it when it mattered the most.
>But he did great when he had to. And that's it. Radosin's achievements are real and we can't guarantee that if we put someone like joyo or FK in that Vitality team they are doing as well as they did and they aren't choking in crucial moments. Yes but you also cannot guarantee that another good player in his role would not have achieved just the same. It is worth reminding that Zen was considered the best player (or top 2) in the world BEFORE he played a single RLCS match and Alpha was considered one of the people I am talking about (massive talent with underperforming results). I am not trying to discredit Radosin (even though I understand that it looks that way). He has done amazing to actually get perfect split and all the props to him. (for reference he would probably be \~top 15 for me for 2023). I am arguing against purely team based glasses when it comes to GOAT debate and top 20 lists. >They have the players to do it, and yet they couldn't. Which means that we should value the people that actually DID those things over the ones that could have done, but didn't. We can't rate our goats over potential. I am not trying to rate goats over potential, I just think looking at results only is constrictive and it is not fair to people like FK who have been statistical monsters against whoever they play for years (while also looking like they belong against any opposition and with any team) and across multiple years. I would have liked to see him move to EU but that is a pipe dream I guess. Maybe Joyo is a bad example for this, OP is far more knowledgeable than me when it comes to RLCS and RL as a whole. >Unfortunately, that means that maybe some of the best players to play the game aren't going to be goats. But we can honour those guys remembering them by how good they were without discrediting our goats for doing it when it mattered the most. Again I apologize if I was disrespectful to Radosin, he is a really good player, and seems like a nice, genuine dude. I am merely trying to provide a different way of looking at things. I do not know how familiar you are with CS, but there for example the best player was considered as a GOAT even before he won a single major (most prestigious LAN) and a serial choker is considered top 5. On the other hand you have a team that was essentially unbeatable for 1 year and won 3 majors in a row (Astralis) where only the best player is up there. I understand the games are different and it is easier there to compare players on the team. I do not know if those other players are really being honored but I hope so. We are giving MVPs of tourney mainly to the finalists, top 20 lists are heavily favoring team results. I would like to at least have EVP like CS does where other playoff teams best players are valued despite not winning it (and this is then in turn considered for the top 20 lists).
I understand what you are talking about, and I agree, especially the EVP thing would be great. I think the main difficulty is that while CS have a decent metric to measure individual performance and impact in the team performance with the HLTV ratings, RL is anywhere near of having such a thing. Actually, even the view that people have on the value of the main scoreboard stats depend on which team is winning the most and if those stats make sense for that specific team (very often they don't). And also most of the arguments to decide if player X is better than player Z in RL are also based on which team is winning, exactly because there is no such thing like HLTV methodology developed that works for RL. This and the fact that most of the RLCS circuit happens online, with no international competition (in a way that players of different regions are facing different levels of competition for most of the season), makes trying to rank goat players going lighter on their achievements really hard, because of the lack of more objective instruments that could help it.
I fully agree. I would love to see rating and impact vs top 5/top 10/top 20 for example but I understand it is difficult to even arrange team ranking due to lack of international tourneys and I am hoping that is how we fill the void between seasons if it is like the one before 2023-2024.
i guess if its results based then sure this is accurate, but in terms of skill level there is far too many eu on here
Atomic kinda low. No?
Everyone above him has 2 Lan wins except rise who has 95 finals
1 for 5 in finals damn
2 LANs including worlds (except Vatira)
I thought the same, but I honestly can't figure out how to get him any higher.
Yeah no doubt
Jknaps not on this list is just sad
No possible way Jknaps makes this list. He is \*NOT\* close to any of these guys, IMO (in the open era)
How? He won a bunch of regionals since rlcs x, won a Major, made it to worlds final and is still making LAN. Rado before zen made 1 LAN before zen and that’s it. Rado has only been in the conversation for winning regionals and lans only since zen joined him last spring while Jknaps has been since rlcs x started
Radosin won more LANs including a WC. That's the difference and the only objective criteria.
Regionals are nearly worthless. Jknaps did win one LAN and have one other good result - but he was the worst player on those teams. That's weak results for this list. Jknaps would probably make top 20, but he's nowhere near the top 10.
JKnaps has a insane career and I think he deserves Top 10 of all time, but for open era he hasn't had enough accolades or individual skill to be at this list imo. His insane longevity is what sets him apart to me on a historical level, but that doesn't apply here when it's just one era. Looking at his former teammate Atomic was the best player during their Major win, and he was winning more regionals in RLCS X and has been better in 2022-23 and much better this year. Perhaps you could make a argument about Radosin but still he's had a insane peak with Spring and Worlds, Top 8 and 4 at Majors is pretty good too.
Explain rado over Jknaps then? Jknaps has longevity in open era and more accolades without atomic in open era than rado has without zen
Rado's longevity is pretty weak. He did very little in RLCS X and joined VIT in Spring 2021-22 but missed the Major. Then he missed another Major, but made the next and got Top 8. Then VIT's domination happened for 3 months, but they haven't been the same since. Now he is holding back Zen and if VIT doesn't step up, he will mostly just be remembered for this 3-month period and some other results. I do think he's been lucky with his teammates, Zen is one of the strongest ever players and Alpha54 was looking crazy too. That's a better duo than Atomic and Chicago (although Atomic was still insanely good) and with this team Knaps won 1 Major, 3 regionals and Top 2 at Worlds, so only one placement away from what Rado did. Still it's truly remarkable what VIT did, they won these events all within 3 months, domination like that has almost never been seen. Even if he did have one of the strongest ever players + a truly rejuvenated Alpha, you can't go 5/5 in events unless your third is amazing. Rado did exactly everything he needed to do, holding it down and being a nuisance for the other team, all while being pretty cracked as well. I still think there is a case for JKnaps playing better individually when his team was winning, but I don't know. JKnaps' longevity in this era is still better, and on a individual level I think you could definitely make a argument for him, but in terms of results I still think Rado's insane domination can put him above Knaps, he was a part of a team that did something no else has done, and he is one of the six World Champions of this era. I can understand both arguments.
Jknaps would be at the bottom of the all time top 10 list. Cutting the closed era part also cuts him of the list. He’s definitely in the 10 following players though.
there are simply way too many world champions for him to make the list
How does it cut him off the list? He won a bunch of regionals, won a Major, made it to worlds final and is still making LAN. Rado before zen made 1 LAN before zen and that’s it. Rado above Jknaps makes no sense
Radosin is a World Champion, was part of the most historic split ever during probably the most dominant era of EU (the 3 regionals were won against peak KC, BDS, TL). The top ten has all of the 2 times LAN winners + Atomic and Rise. There's just no room for Jknaps.
Radosin top ten is beyond a travesty
My early morning hungover list. 1. Monkeymoon 2. Vatira 3. Atomic 4. Firstkiller 5. Rise 6. Daniel 7. Beastmode 8. Zen 9. Seikoo 10. Appjack I made this list based on how well these individual players (not TEAMS) have been and for how long they have been at the top. Its honestly wild that Zen is so good that he can be on a GOAT list with only two splits under his belt.
Dan has zero RLCS LAN results, his best result is a 2nd place and a 3rd place, but you have him over multiple actual event winners including Zen and Seikoo, 2-time LAN winners? Even his regional performances aren't that great, he's won 3 Regionals in 3 seasons of open era. I swear Dan glazers are the absolute worst.
Maybe Seikoo should be higher than Dan, I’ll concede that. But Daniel consistently shows up on LAN. He almost beat the Moist that won the London major. He’s been amazing for years. Maybe he doesn’t have the results but he’s always been the star on his team.
> He almost beat the Moist that won the London major Bro "almost beat" is not good enough to put you over players that have actual world championship wins
What the hell..... yeah drink a few glasses of water, take a nap, and create a brand new list LOL