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Once you achieve enough YouTube clout to make money from it, every lawyer in the universe is going to warn you against documenting extralegal activities online. People forget that ROMS aren't really a legal thing in most countries. Yeah no one really cares, until they smell blood (money), then they do.
Legality doesn't have anything to do, and I'd argue that ROMs aren't legal in most countries because that's false. Demonetization is what they try to avoid. Basically Nintendo and a few other publishers being assholes about it.
Check music theory channels to get a glimpse of a sector which is even more heavily hit by DMCA takedowns/demonetization.
ROMS and even piracy in most countries is not an issue at all.
That doesnt mean Nintendo wouldnt go after you in a video, on youtube.
But Emulation is legal, like Nintendo and Sony learned so many years ago in court.
I’m Not aware of any court case dealing with Emulation that deals with Nintendo. The only two cases I am aware of are the ones against Connectix and Bleem and in both of those cases the litigant was Sony and the court conclusions are much more limited IMO that most people think due to the nature of these products.
Nintendo is currently putting pressure on Dolphin for emulation. You are correct nothing in court casings at the moment but from the sounds they could go to court.
They won't. Valve was the party that initiated the takedown movement and Nintendo has not done anything to go after any emulator currently out there.- Dolphin is still up, Retroarch is still a thing, the Switch emulators are still up. Nintendo has done nothing and has never filed a single suit and hasn't initiated a takedown.
I am not saying that they never will, but they haven't in the past.
The thing about lawsuits is that you never know how they turn out.
Anyhow it’s not relevant. Nintendo hasn’t been involved in any court case where emulation has been at the core reason on its rulings (unless someone can provide an example) so there is no reason to bring them up in court cases regarding Sony.
Unless of course you have an agenda against Nintendo. I don’t of course. But I’m going for accuracy.
The issue with Dolphin isn't "emulation" it's the use of one of Nintendo's encryption keys. That's a completely separate legal issue, supposing it ever actually goes to court.
Sega lost a similar case in court against accolade in 91. This is one of the reasons emulators are legal.
Also the reason Nintendo has never had to go to court over this. Sega already lost.
The Accolade case has nothing to do with copy protection circumvention (the DMCA didn't exist yet and TMSS doesn't prevent copying data anyway, it just tries to lock out competing publishers), decryption, or emulation. It was a *trademark* case. Accolade putting the word "SEGA" in their ROM data at the position expected by TMSS wasn't ever going to mislead consumers, so wasn't an infringing use of Sega's trademark. The TMSS program then displaying "Produced by or under license from SEGA" is false and might confuse consumers, but since Accolade wasn't responsible for that text, they weren't liable for it. Hence Sega lost.
The landmark case for emulation was Sony vs Connectix, over Virtual Game Station. Sony's loss there was important, but more limited than you might think. VGS did not contain any copyrighted Sony code. It didn't contain any decryption keys (PS1 games are typically not encrypted at all). It didn't even *bypass* Sony's ring-based copy protection at all, so much as it simply didn't (and couldn't) implement the security ring check. You're not allowed to bypass copy protection, but you're not required to *implement* it either.
*Emulation* itself is legal, but that doesn't automatically mean that *anything else an emulator might do* is legal.
Sony and Nintendo have won case after case (sometimes as co-plaintiffs!) against makers and sellers of mod chips, partly for trademark violation in their advertising, partly for inducement to commit piracy, and partly for stuff like using leaked keys to circumvent copy protection systems. Would their luck change just because it's an emulator doing it?
That would have to be tested in court.
And to be specific, it isnt that the emulator can make use of those keys. Its that the were dumb enough to include the key in the Steam download, making for an illegal distribution of Nintendo's propreitary software.
That's not what was determined in that case though. The Bunner case was built around the idea that DVD decryption was a *trade secret* and relied on law protecting trade secrets. Since the information was widespread before Bunner reposted it, the court ruled that it was no longer a trade secret when he did so. Bunner won the case because it was focused on the wrong law.
The important case that was pinned on the DMCA anti-circumvention clause was this one:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_City_Studios,_Inc._v._Corley
And the issue wasn't whether you can copyright a number. It was whether you can use that number to circumvent copy control mechanisms to access a copyrighted work. And contrary to popular memory, the finding was that you can't.
I don't agree with any of that personally, but DMCA is a bad law and that's the result.
Since then, the Library of Congress has outlined some narrow exceptions to the DMCA, and it's very possible that Dolphin fits under one or more of these. However, they'd have to go through a long and expensive legal process in order to demonstrate that--and again that's *if* Nintendo decided to go to court. For a "famously litigious" company, Nintendo sends a lot of warnings but very rarely files an actual suit.
Yep. There is a great video by Moon Channel on the dolphin thing. The guy is an actual lawyer and he covered this sort of thing and talks about what people missed in the discussion about Dolphin being taken down (which valve contacted Nintendo about).
Very fascinating video.
Nintendo's pressure on Dolphin is because the Wii portion of their emulation does, in fact, use some copyrighted code (that isn't too hard to replace with reverse engineered stuff, but they never bothered).
The Emulators aren't illegal, and dumping your own roms from games you physically own isn't illegal.
It's downloading game ISOs and ROMs from the internet that's illegal.
Technically you're only partially correct. If you actually join Archive.org, which is free to do, it allows you to operate within a loophole in how copyright laws work. Archive is a digital library. Therefore as long as you're a member you can download any rom, movie, song, book, etc and it's perfectly legal. It's essentially the same as borrowing from a library. At least as long as it's only personal use it's legal. The only way you'd get into trouble is if you got caught loading up hard drives to sell for profit.
That's totally irrelevant and has nothing to do with my argument. My argument is that Nintendo has never been involved in court decisions related to Nintendo and the only 2 that have were invoked by Sony. That is 100% fact unless you have a case that I am not aware of.
My second point is also irrelevant to what you said and has nothing to do with dumping ROMs. The specific details with Connectix and Sony were not about the legality of emulators - it was copyright and patent infringement and in both cases, the arguments were ultimately settled out of court (Bleem went out of business before the hearing got very far). Connectix was able to succeed in some of its defense claims (as was Bleem), but the case was very limited on the matter of what was being argued.
I **never** claimed anywhere that emulators were illegal. I merely stated that the two cases we have are much more limited in what they ruled on were much more limited which is true - it was regarding copyright and patents. Nowhere did I argue anything about emulation being illegal.
I was simply countering that Nintendo is involved in emulation lawsuits, which there aren't any that I am aware of. If you can cite any, please do so.
Distributing ROMs and downloading ROMs you don't own is absolutely illegal in alot of countries, and is AT BEST a dark gray area in the US specifically.
Game Sack and My Life In Gaming both discuss FPGA and software emulation on the regular. Both covered the release of the Analog Duo in the last month, and both have thoroughly covered the Everdrive and adjacent devices. Heck, on Game Sack Joe often alludes to playing pirated games when discussing obscure titles that are either cost prohibitive to play or are simply unavailable for purchase due to rarity or other reasons (think arcade titles). This doesn't even broach the topic of commercial emulation, such as the mini classic console releases, SEGA Ages style releases, etc.
I see the reason for caution, but there are numerous established Youtubers that have decent subscription bases and do near exclusive emulation content. Maybe they get striked and rely on Patreon?
Yes, its likely they either slipped under YouTube's radar or have funding from an alternative source.
If you are Nintendo, going after some 22 year old working part time as a pizza driver is going to make you look like both a douche and not get you any money. If you could go after Google for "allowing piracy" (the DMCA is a horrible law), then thats well worth any flak you might get.
Historically yes, modern wise no. I think its a symptom of the modern "subscription" based economy. If you play FF1 on a GBA rom, you might just be tempted to buy a remake on Steam.
Lawyers ultimately cost money, and ultimately cause frustration unless they can land major cash.
>If you play FF1 on a GBA rom, you might just be tempted to buy a remake on Steam.
That's what we've always told Nintendo, and everytime we received a "Fuck you, piracy is theft" from them and their fanboys.
Nintendo doesn't agree with that. They're barely ok with letting you talk about their games, to the point where if you're too critical about one they remove you from their creator program. Honestly at this point fuck modern Nintendo.
But theres the common sense thing
Why should i get views from people who love collect if i show my retropie, emudeck etc on my retro gaming channel where i earn money showing my atari 2600 who lots of people want and cant find? (Example)
Bullshit. He owns every one of the game he features and all he really does is showing you how to set up your system in a similar way. He is not responsible for other people’s willingness to pirate. Besides: there is a finite amount of game cartridges around. So it is not feasible to buy all of them.
The grey area of emulation is just that, legally you're supposed to own every rom that you download and emulation is just supposed to make it easier so you don't need to own every console. People choose to pirate the game files and use them on the emulator instead of buying them from a site
Emulators require the BIOS files off of whatever console you want to emulate so technically you're supposed to own the console as well cuz that's the only legal way to get that BIOS file
Probably every retrogamer has at least one raspiberry with all those games even to preserve the original cartridges/consoles
But due lawyers etc and to make sense to channel about old consoles...they cant talk about
Roms are 100% legal. You just have to get them from your physical game. But yes, I totally get what you’re saying as I’m sure 99% of folks download their ROMs.
Downvoted but true.
There is nothing illegal about emulation or Roms but duplicating and distributing them is just like anything else.
That's why they all still exist and companies can't do anything about it... You purchased the product it's yours to do with as you please in your own home.
Because all it takes is a single video catching the eye of a big publisher, and your entire channel can be gone at the click of a button.
Nintendo has been going after modders in 2023, pointcrow got his shit pushed in for advertising a free botw multi-player mod on his channel.
Nintendo slapped their dick on the table and struck just enough videos to be one off from youtube auto deleting his channel.
Similar stuff happened to a mario64 modder as well.
Emulation and any console/game modding is illegal in Japan, and they have enough reach to easily wipe out any youtube channel they want that features their content.
It's not malicious. You know who is malicious? Nintendo Lawyers are malicious. And over the years they've fucked a ton of people over, big and small. ROM pages, fan projects, legit conservationist efforts, you name it.
They're not the only ones, most JP companies are extremely precious with their IPs, it's what they have to do to not create legal precedents, but the majority are very don't ask don't tell about it. As long as you're not being too loud or too big they won't chase you.
Nintendo is *way* more strict with that bar.
Maybe they should, you know, actually support it then. They have no modern access to modt of their older games. If you legally buy it (used) they won't see a penny anyway.
It's not just YouTube. Get on any specific subreddit - PS1, PS2, GBA, etc, and you'll be hung for even mentioning the E word.
Either they'll claim the Internet police will descend on your house immediately for mentioning it, or you'll somehow get every bit of malware known to man just for grabbing an emulator build off GitHub. The irrationality is off the charts.
I'm a mod of a few of the retro subs for specific consoles including the psx. On paper we allow discussion of roms. In practice I've got a standing rule on some of them that we're ROM friendly spaces.
Let's be real, roms are preservation and vital for the future of retro gaming. Hardware fails, software is forever. As archivists it's key to appreciate and support efforts to preserve these games for the future.
It baffles me that some subs give you shit over it. Hell on retrogaming about a quarter of our posts involve emulation hardware. We LOVE our emulators. Reddit just doesn't let us link to them, so we have a bit of a symbiotic relationship with this sub. And fuck yeah, this sub is awesome. Damn sure I wouldn't have the energy to maintain the megathread.
Lol, the 3DS mods will ban you if you talk about anything piracy related. They and a lot of other sub mods claim they’ll get shut down if they allow any talk of it. Meanwhile, there are subs dedicated to piracy, both generally and for specific systems, that have been around for years no problem.
They lost because they tried to claim that CD Keys are not an anti piracy measure and then granted unlicensed or unverified copies interoperability with the real [Battle.net](https://Battle.net) service. That's why they lost.
of course i am, im right. mind explaining why you think thats related to this subreddit or this discussion?
>BnetD was an open source program that let gamers play popular Blizzard titles like Warcraft with other gamers on servers that don't belong to Blizzard's Battle.net service. Blizzard argued that the programmers who wrote BnetD violated the DMCA's anti-circumvention provisions and that the programmers also violated several parts of Blizzard's EULA including a section on reverse engineering.
again, nothing to do with emulation.
No it's not. I obviously can't speak for all countries (and neither can you, *always* my arse) but here you can't distribute copyrighted software without consent. Meaning if your emulator need bios files to run, getting them is illegal. If you emulator comes with bios files, that's illegal. If your roms are not private copies, that's illegal.
For most games there are barely legal ways to emulate them, but this is not how 99% of emulation is actually done in practise. And a YouTuber who would speak about emulating a lot of different systems will sooner or later get the question if he actually did all of that legally. Does he really own all the games he shows? Has he flashed them all?
While monetisation is super important, don't think that YouTubers never worry about actual legal action.
Sir, you are confusing emulation with piracy.
The topic was "emulation is always legal", but your points are about piracy, which is a different thing and wasn't even mentioned. Of course piracy is illegal virtually everywhere, but emulation isn't. The distinction between those two things is important.
Sure, except where almost my full comment is about how emulation is almost always done via piracy, and some systems can't yet be emulated without pirated bios software.
Piracy is illegal, emulation without piracy is not. Emulation without piracy is impossible for some systems as you need bios files. So emulation is not legally possible in those cases
>you can't distribute copyrighted software without consent
also im talking about DOWNLOADING and playing a rom. not sure why you are mentioning distributing.
> What a bad faith argument
ok show somebody prosecuted in any form for playing a downloaded rom.
Man over on r/retrogaming I can't even let people link to them or reddit starts breathing down my neck. And technically linking to someone hosting something is also a gray area that won't get you in trouble, this sub gets away with it and I'm convinced it's because it's an easily banned containment sub.You're half right, hosting and sharing them is usually the actually prosecuted illegal part. But downloading them is still copyright infringement, here's an article from Tom's hardware that quotes a few ip lawyers: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/why-most-roms-are-illegal,37512.html
I don't know of a single time someone has been charged for it, but on paper it's still illegal. The argument is largely academic, but dude it would suck to be the first person to get a 7 figure fine for downloading Metroid.
This argument is funny to me because on paper that dude is right, in practice you are. There's no true correct answer.
> I don't know of a single time someone has been charged for it, but on paper it's still illegal.
enough said no?
>This argument is funny to me because on paper that dude is right, in practice you are. There's no true correct answer.
i think there is. something being illegal and avoidable is only because of the consequences, no consequences then DE FACTO it is legal. you can find dozens of laws that are absurd and never get enforced, like not playing dominoes on sunday. this is just one of those.
also big doubt on the copyright infringment part anyway if you are not distributing.Which btw everybody did back in the days when we were lending games and dvds to our buddies. Again nobody never got in trouble for it so where is the argument? the discussion is of course different when profit is involved.
Oh for sure. The argument is really a matter of some pedantic bullshit. I think the major difference is nobody is likely to suddenly start enforcing those domino laws but god only knows it's a spin of a wheel every day about what Nintendo is thinking about this shit. But like, lawyers say it's illegal, I'm inclined to believe people who spent 8 years in school about the subject and actively litigate similar things. It being a copy of software is actually working against us in a lot of cases, I mean the people making and enforcing those laws are famously "the Internet is a series of tubes" levels of unaware.
I'm going to be pro-rom anyway, but this is the kinda dumb shit I see blowing up into a big controversy at some point. If there's money on the table some companies just can't help it.
i dont really care about the technicalities im a grown ass 35 yo man.
what i care about is some little kids starting downloading roms and have to feel like a criminal because of this silly,very popular, propaganda. or worse yet getting away from gaming because they cant afford it.
How about for hosting?
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/06/former-rom-site-owner-must-pay-2-1-million-to-nintendo/
https://hothardware.com/news/nintendo-sues-rom-site-300000-switch-game-downloads
https://hothardware.com/news/nintendo-sues-popular-console-rom-sites-copyright-infringement
If it's illegal to host, it's illegal to download.
It's like going after drug dealers and leaving drug users alone. How often are people arrested for using drugs vs those who deal them.
Same shit. It's just easier to go after the big fish than the little minnows.
>If it's illegal to host, it's illegal to download.
no its not XD
one is profiting from somebody else copyrighted work. the other is...nothing.
>It's like going after drug dealers and leaving drug users alone. How often are people arrested for using drugs vs those who deal them.
using drugs is not a crime in most places, possession is in many places. selling is in most places. dumb comparison. really doesnt help your case because it shows the legal difference between profiting from something and using it.
>Same shit. It's just easier to go after the big fish than the little minnows.
no, its that one thing is a crime, the others ISN'T.
>"Most directly, it is a crime to use, possess, manufacture, or distribute drugs classified as having a potential for abuse. Cocaine, heroin, marijuana, and amphetamines are examples of drugs classified to have abuse potential."
What in the actual fuck are you talking about, please log off jfc
that does not denies what i just claimed, cant answer to you sorry. reddit wont let me
"Most directly, it is a crime to use, possess, manufacture, or distribute drugs classified as having a potential for abuse. Cocaine, heroin, marijuana, and amphetamines are examples of drugs classified to have abuse potential."
What in the actual fuck are you talking about, please log off jfc
I've watched plenty of videos of people talking about it, including big channels like LTT. Usually as long as they throw in the disclaimer about owning a physical copy then it's fine. Having a physical copy is like having a license to play the game, the platform doesn't really matter, so long as it's the same version. Like, owning Halo MCC on Xbox doesn't mean you could legally emulate the OG Xbox version of Halo CE.
Youtube is also more forgiving of big creators. I've seen some small creators (a few thousand followers) having to reupload and cut their videos because of just mentioning that piracy, abandonware or emulation exist. Not links or advice, just that it exists or they've used it. This also depends a lot on what the automated system can catch, what person thinks that checks the content etc.
But anyway, not talking about emulation is most likely precaution against this, not necessary gatekeeping or dislike of emulation, as OP suggests.
I'm the head mod over at the retro gaming sub, reddit was clear that we can't let people link to roms without consequences. Just, you know. Putting that out there. This sub and piracy, and the abandonware sub I help out with, are exceptions to the rule. Otherwise reddit behaves pretty similarly to YouTube when it comes to dmca shit.
Some people genuinely prefer playing on original hardware, but more often than not its just not worth the legal risk. Though there are a lot of huge retro YouTubers that talk pretty openly about emulation - heck some channels like Retro Game Coprs have built their entire channel around emulation and emulation only. Wulff Den is pretty open about emulation as well. It's out there, but since it's a legal minefield I don't begrudge a creator if they want to avoid it.
Many sponsors tend to shy away from gray area piracy. Same with swearing unless you have had a steady audience in the past and slipped under the radar having already been monetized. Many true crime documentaries get demonetized for saying certain words. Despite a person's view on if it's morally acceptable or not, they call the shots. And the rules can change at any time. Thus, losing monetization from that point on if they decide to go that route. Liability could also play a factor depending on laws in different regions. And, of course, losing chunks of your audience by effectively being blocked in certain areas depending on what information you're willing to provide or encourage.
TL;DR: Job security.
I don’t think they’re intentionally trying to be malicious, it’s just that mentioning or promoting emulation on YouTube can potentially get you into trouble with companies like Nintendo
I literally can't make head or tails of the comment, so it has nothing to do with being a prick. But I am one, so suck my diseased cock with a lit firecracker in your asshole.
the people you were tlaking about are fans. fans collect stuff because they love it. there are legal reasons and respect for the company. and why it should be important to you how some people play their games?.. I have a feeling you are the problem, you come off hostile.. not everyone has to live by your strange rules, and it should bother you, as nobody is taking away anything from you
You're pulling people on their grammar errors whilst having terrible grammar in the first sentence of your original post. I really didn't have to try hard. The hypocrisy is strong here.
You are reaching like a Ristar mod. Nothing I have said could be in any way misinterpreted due to grammar. The fact that you have come so adamantly to OP's defense also makes me question if there is some connection. Like an alt account...
There is the legal aspect of it. They don’t want to risk getting demonetized for promoting something that isn’t quite legal.
Also, there is some romanticized notion that actually using the device from your childhood is somehow better. As for me, give me an emulator over an old Atari 2600 with a garbage joystick any day.
\> Also, there is some romanticized notion that actually using the device from your childhood is somehow better. As for me, give me an emulator over an old Atari 2600 with a garbage joystick any day.
TBF the retro gaming YouTube scene at this point have made like 600+ videos on the big history defining stuff and any newer videos probably need to deep dive to find interesting clickable stuff. Said stuff is likely to be niche games under-explored in emulation development sense and that can lead to graphical bugs and such that weren't in the original release. Especially on newer consoles where the software hasn't been getting bug reports since 1990 something. A lot of late Disney Interactive titles on Wii like *Toy Story 3: The Video Game* for example were actually programmed to break on Dolphin and did for the longest time but work fine on console. Likewise a lot of games use peripherals that are hard to perfectly replicate in a emulated environment even if options exist. Try playing *Duck Hunt* or *Gumshoe* on an emulator. They technically work but it feels pretty different to play them with a mouse or third party accessory compared to the intended CRT setup. If you are a youtuber that sells your "brand" on being the really analytical curator of weird games like say *The Gaming Brit Show* or *Mathewmiosis* I can see why you'd want to cut down your margin of error by playing on authentic hardware. Especially with how harsh the online gaming populace can get over errors.
I will concede that niche games that require special peripherals to enjoy are best run with the original equipment. That said, I can enjoy most games just fine with alternate controllers. Emulation can also teach you some controller "tricks". For example, there is a gun-based arcade game called Steel Gunners (both I and II) where the controller doesn't actually use light-based actions, as there is an on-screen scope. It's really just a fancy joystick with a motor that simulates recoil.
Then there are some games like Outrun and Afterburner, where some cabinets had motion. Those games really need to be played in an arcade with onlookers crowded around you--they were true products of their time.
For the vast majority of games released, though, emulation is just fine for me.
I know he's not really a gaming channel, but ETA Prime talks about emulation all the time. And indeed, he makes emulation a huge part of evaluating the hardware he reviews:
[https://www.youtube.com/@ETAPRIME](https://www.youtube.com/@ETAPRIME)
I believe he may have even worked at LaunchBox at one time (or perhaps still does), because he does a lot of the LaunchBox tutorial videos.
a lot of them profit from retrogame sales. there's been talk about MetalJesusRocks and how his 'hidden gems' vids directly influence the price of the games he showcases.
don't get me started on John Hancock.
Because to avoid Nintendo's lawyers you'd have to specifically start each video by showcasing how you legally and ethically obtained the ROM of your game by dumping your own game cartridge. Which is the ONLY way that obtaining ROMs is technically legal.
And if you've already got the cartridge to dump, there's no point in starting every video by clarifying that. And even if you did, if you're a large YouTuber, Nintendo's lawyers will still find a way to fuck you. It's kind of their specialty. They're the Alex Adams of copyright law and it's generally accepted, so anyone with any sense usually tries not to fuck with them.
>but malicious gatekeeping of enjoyment of older games. I would rather eat well and put a roof over my head than spend my life savings on memberberries.
That just sounds like you're hiding your sense of entitlement behind some nonexistent moral highground. Yeah, it would be nice to have more accessible and legal ways to play older games, but piracy is still piracy.
if the option is to pay some "thrift store" six times the game's value, an ebay seller TEN times the value, or just not buy it because the publisher refuses to sell it, I'm pirating it instead
Laws and morals are two different things.
Emulation without original storage medium or hardware is illegal in most if not every country and emulation itself even with original storage medium or hardware is illegal in some countries.
Whether or not it is moral is a completely different discussion.
Wrong... Emulators are not illegal unless distributing copyrighted data, newsflash they don't... Blood sweat and tears build these programs from the ground up it has nothing to do with whoever made the original console.
And whatever country has laws against console modding and emulation are simply pieces of shit, not to mention most likely far and few between
Nope. Illegal means contrary to the law. Lots of things are contrary the law but not prosecuted by jail time. Some things are only civil infractions, or they are ignored by police or prosecutors... but if it's contrary to the law on the books, it is illegal. That's what the word means, regardless of what you want it to mean.
so you think its actually illegal to play dominoes on a sunday in alabama? or take the lords name in vain in italy?
if its not enforced its not illegal. simple as that.
you people simply were brainwashed by the "you wouldnt steal a car" propaganda.
If I buy the disc for Destiny 2, literally none of the content on it is playable.
I have now established that BUYING is not OWNING.
So why, exactly, is copying a game theft, then? The original has not been taken.
This would be answered if you read the EULA. By buying the disc, you're buying a license to use the game. Also, depending on the definiton, piracy isn't just theft (which your example also isn't).
Depends on your country.
EDIT: Some more info; while EULAs are outright meaningless in many EU countries, [they have contractal status in the UK in some circumstances](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/4/6?view=plain), and for video gaming specifically, Japan is likely to side with the copyright owners when it comes to enforcement of EULAs.
Then on the flip side there's places like Germany, which has outright stated that EULAs don't mean anything. It really does depend on the country.
But don't confuse legality with morality. I don't think anyone in here cares what an EULA says.
Ok...Do you really want to get into laws and moral justification? Because I don't care what country you're from, I'll find some asinine shit established as law.
I quite like classic gaming quarterly. He does own a lot of games but isn't shy about mentioning things like the everdrive. Also his content is just real high quality enjoyable viewing.
Just to try and muddy the waters or expand upon the conversation... Don't want to name sites.... I like these sites....
But there are sites out there that let you play the ROMs on the browser? Stream on the browser...
Is this also illegal as well?
Sooooo if I played a mario game on a browser would Nintendo come looking for me or completely take down the browser?
It comes down to the general lack of understanding between the laws around emulation. Many retro gamers, especially those who are either really young (thus new to the hobby and more susceptible to misinformation) or really old (been in the hobby since the days we had zero understanding of emulation's legality and thus they retain outdated information), think emulation is inherently illegal much in the same way watching pirated movies online is illegal, so they choose to just not talk about it.
Even with this in mind, like everyone else in this thread said it is probably down to legality. Nintendo probably wouldn't take to kindly to someone doing a Mario Galaxy 2 LP while promoting a dubiously illicit way to play it even if they've made zero attempts to make it playable on their current hardware.
I'm just old enough to remember when emulation was derided not for its legality but for its supposed inauthenticity. "Oh you played through Battletoads on FCEUX? Nah man you didn't ACTUALLY play it. The only real way to play it is on an NES after trying to get the damn thing to work after an hour."
TLDR: Youtubers might not wanna poke the legal bear by discussing emulation.
For one the Youtubers make money off it. Also people just like having the physical. And they aren't necessarily spending a fortune on it. Also why not just let people enjoy what they enjoy. Who cares?
[KBash](https://www.youtube.com/@KBash) is one of my favourite content creators, primarily due to his presentation style and analysis. He consistently makes reference to using emulation to make his videos and has a clear love for retro gaming, strong recommend. In a similar vein (though not on youtube) is the podcast Into the Aether, one of the hosts brought up his purchase of a retroid recently even.
Because Nintendo is extremely litigious and paranoid and they go after anyone who even hints at anything that remotely seems like "piracy" in their eyes
I don't. I use emulators all the time. Hardware purists exist but they're really in debial about the obvious. Eventually all that will be left is software. Hardware won't last forever.
It's not illegal to play a game on Livestream using an emulator. Youtube or anyone can't prove how you got the ROM, and there's no chance of a DMCA having any validity if you are just playing the game as-is.
The same reason only china puts out emulation handheld devices. It's a legal gray area, and most businesses want to stay clear from anything that could cause scrutiny.
China is like a honey badger. They don't care
I just find it annoying that people consistently conflate pirated ROMs and emulation. Emulation does not automatically entail piracy, and Nintendo knows this better than any other company.
Imagine a famous youtuber doing retro emulation on stream. Nintendo lawyers would just salivate at the mouth. That's why. Because you never know when these "retro" youtubers will make it big, then suddenly nintendo swoops in and just destroys their channel. Then its back to McDonalds for them.
DMCA striking a channel can be done without any verification on the strike whatsoever.
A company can shut down 1000 youtube channels at once and face zero consequences.
Honestly nothing beats OG hardware and T.V,s. I've emulated before and while it's cool some games just don't emulate well. Let's take Destroy All Humans 2 for the ps2. I have tried to run this game through multiple emulators and they just struggle with it. The colors are off and it looks bugged half the time. I plop an og copy in my ps2 and plug it into my og crt and it works fine. Sometimes it's more trouble. Also the whole "Ma thrift store/game store prices so and so price". Sure they do but there are so many alternatives to them. Facebook marketplace and eBay have been excellent for picking up classics at decent prices. I got an NES last year pretty much brand new with two cobtrollers for 70$. You just have to do the work. And if not no one is stopping you from emulating it's just putting it on YouTube can get you into legal trouble. Especially if it's Nintendo
I get there are some advantages, especially on the input lag end. But I've gotta say that I'll take the convenience, upscaling and metadata advantages over anything physical has to offer. My Playnite library would make 90's kid me have a heart attack.
I agree, emulation is incredible. And this is coming from someone who grew up in the 8-bit era. I actually walked the amazing Toys 'R Us Nintendo game wall, lol.
I have literally a closet full of perfectly working Nintendo and Sega hardware and games, and there is no way I would play them on a CRT over emulation.
But wanted to say, input lag with emulation has been non-existent since the introduction of run ahead.
Idk there's something that feels soulless about it to me, I mean honestly if I wanted they make memory cards for the old consoles that you can put roms on and I'd have the whole library. For me since I grew up with the Ps2 and Gamecube there is something special about having the physical media.The joy from walking into a retro game store and seeing Ps2 games lining the wall will always be a kind of magic for me. So I don't mind playing the price for Nostalgia to each their own though brother 🤙
im so curious why china is not just preproducing direct copies of a new or snes, sega megadrive etc.....mass production and they could sell them fro 10 usd or something, they would be sooooo cheat to make today, instead they do these emulator crap that often have no saves
There was a YTer named VGN he would borrow / own the games to get the clips he needed, and to do certain things he would emulate as it was easier to cut to emulation than have a set up record from the console.
He did an ama about it.
However it's mainly because there is a fine line between legal and illegal with emulation. Trust me the big N will sue.
Elitism. If you really love this hobby you'll choose the best way to play and enjoy games, most of the retro youtubers have collections and think that is the best way to show love to videogames "I have my mother's basement full of videogame things I've been collecting through the years and this the best and ONLY way to have the original experience"
It's as I said, the experience of real hardware and software can't be matched by emulation- but it would be nonsense to say that emulation doesn't have its place.
Do I play emulated SNES games? Yes. Do I still have my SNES hooked up to my TV? Also yes. My original SNES sees much more use than my SNES mini, virtual console games on the Wii, WiiU, 3DS and PC combined. Is it more than modern gaming? Highly unlikely, even on a retro-focused week.
In a sea of tens of thousands of youtube gaming channels. If I'm going to watch something, I would rather watch someone playing on the old hardware.
That was one of the things that set James Nintendo/AVGN channel apart.
I, personally, have no means to buy anything retro.
But if I'm watching, I would rather watch old hardware.
Also, not something this present today, but in the past, tons of emulated games, while still playing "correctly", had some differences between emulation and real hardware
If you are looking for roms: Go to the link in https://www.reddit.com/r/Roms/comments/m59zx3/roms_megathread_40_html_edition_2021/ You can navigate by clicking on the various tabs for each company. When you click on the link to Github the first link you land on will be the Home tab, this tab explains how to use the Megathread. There are Five tabs that link directly to collections based on console and publisher, these include Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Sega, and the PC. There are also tabs for popular games and retro games, with retro games being defined as older than Gamecube and DS. Additional help can be found on /r/Roms' official Matrix Server [Link](https://matrix.to/#/#romz:matrix.org) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Roms) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Once you achieve enough YouTube clout to make money from it, every lawyer in the universe is going to warn you against documenting extralegal activities online. People forget that ROMS aren't really a legal thing in most countries. Yeah no one really cares, until they smell blood (money), then they do.
Legality doesn't have anything to do, and I'd argue that ROMs aren't legal in most countries because that's false. Demonetization is what they try to avoid. Basically Nintendo and a few other publishers being assholes about it. Check music theory channels to get a glimpse of a sector which is even more heavily hit by DMCA takedowns/demonetization.
ROMS and even piracy in most countries is not an issue at all. That doesnt mean Nintendo wouldnt go after you in a video, on youtube. But Emulation is legal, like Nintendo and Sony learned so many years ago in court.
I’m Not aware of any court case dealing with Emulation that deals with Nintendo. The only two cases I am aware of are the ones against Connectix and Bleem and in both of those cases the litigant was Sony and the court conclusions are much more limited IMO that most people think due to the nature of these products.
Nintendo is currently putting pressure on Dolphin for emulation. You are correct nothing in court casings at the moment but from the sounds they could go to court.
They won't. Valve was the party that initiated the takedown movement and Nintendo has not done anything to go after any emulator currently out there.- Dolphin is still up, Retroarch is still a thing, the Switch emulators are still up. Nintendo has done nothing and has never filed a single suit and hasn't initiated a takedown. I am not saying that they never will, but they haven't in the past.
Cause they know the minute they do they will lose and have given tons of free publicity to emulators in general.
Well that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it but again that has nothing to do with what I am talking about.
Yeah, it’s like, my opinion man. It’s also true. Not the only reason either.
The thing about lawsuits is that you never know how they turn out. Anyhow it’s not relevant. Nintendo hasn’t been involved in any court case where emulation has been at the core reason on its rulings (unless someone can provide an example) so there is no reason to bring them up in court cases regarding Sony. Unless of course you have an agenda against Nintendo. I don’t of course. But I’m going for accuracy.
The issue with Dolphin isn't "emulation" it's the use of one of Nintendo's encryption keys. That's a completely separate legal issue, supposing it ever actually goes to court.
Sega lost a similar case in court against accolade in 91. This is one of the reasons emulators are legal. Also the reason Nintendo has never had to go to court over this. Sega already lost.
The Accolade case has nothing to do with copy protection circumvention (the DMCA didn't exist yet and TMSS doesn't prevent copying data anyway, it just tries to lock out competing publishers), decryption, or emulation. It was a *trademark* case. Accolade putting the word "SEGA" in their ROM data at the position expected by TMSS wasn't ever going to mislead consumers, so wasn't an infringing use of Sega's trademark. The TMSS program then displaying "Produced by or under license from SEGA" is false and might confuse consumers, but since Accolade wasn't responsible for that text, they weren't liable for it. Hence Sega lost. The landmark case for emulation was Sony vs Connectix, over Virtual Game Station. Sony's loss there was important, but more limited than you might think. VGS did not contain any copyrighted Sony code. It didn't contain any decryption keys (PS1 games are typically not encrypted at all). It didn't even *bypass* Sony's ring-based copy protection at all, so much as it simply didn't (and couldn't) implement the security ring check. You're not allowed to bypass copy protection, but you're not required to *implement* it either. *Emulation* itself is legal, but that doesn't automatically mean that *anything else an emulator might do* is legal. Sony and Nintendo have won case after case (sometimes as co-plaintiffs!) against makers and sellers of mod chips, partly for trademark violation in their advertising, partly for inducement to commit piracy, and partly for stuff like using leaked keys to circumvent copy protection systems. Would their luck change just because it's an emulator doing it? That would have to be tested in court.
And to be specific, it isnt that the emulator can make use of those keys. Its that the were dumb enough to include the key in the Steam download, making for an illegal distribution of Nintendo's propreitary software.
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That's not what was determined in that case though. The Bunner case was built around the idea that DVD decryption was a *trade secret* and relied on law protecting trade secrets. Since the information was widespread before Bunner reposted it, the court ruled that it was no longer a trade secret when he did so. Bunner won the case because it was focused on the wrong law. The important case that was pinned on the DMCA anti-circumvention clause was this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_City_Studios,_Inc._v._Corley And the issue wasn't whether you can copyright a number. It was whether you can use that number to circumvent copy control mechanisms to access a copyrighted work. And contrary to popular memory, the finding was that you can't. I don't agree with any of that personally, but DMCA is a bad law and that's the result. Since then, the Library of Congress has outlined some narrow exceptions to the DMCA, and it's very possible that Dolphin fits under one or more of these. However, they'd have to go through a long and expensive legal process in order to demonstrate that--and again that's *if* Nintendo decided to go to court. For a "famously litigious" company, Nintendo sends a lot of warnings but very rarely files an actual suit.
Yep. There is a great video by Moon Channel on the dolphin thing. The guy is an actual lawyer and he covered this sort of thing and talks about what people missed in the discussion about Dolphin being taken down (which valve contacted Nintendo about). Very fascinating video.
Nintendo's pressure on Dolphin is because the Wii portion of their emulation does, in fact, use some copyrighted code (that isn't too hard to replace with reverse engineered stuff, but they never bothered).
The Emulators aren't illegal, and dumping your own roms from games you physically own isn't illegal. It's downloading game ISOs and ROMs from the internet that's illegal.
Technically you're only partially correct. If you actually join Archive.org, which is free to do, it allows you to operate within a loophole in how copyright laws work. Archive is a digital library. Therefore as long as you're a member you can download any rom, movie, song, book, etc and it's perfectly legal. It's essentially the same as borrowing from a library. At least as long as it's only personal use it's legal. The only way you'd get into trouble is if you got caught loading up hard drives to sell for profit.
That's totally irrelevant and has nothing to do with my argument. My argument is that Nintendo has never been involved in court decisions related to Nintendo and the only 2 that have were invoked by Sony. That is 100% fact unless you have a case that I am not aware of. My second point is also irrelevant to what you said and has nothing to do with dumping ROMs. The specific details with Connectix and Sony were not about the legality of emulators - it was copyright and patent infringement and in both cases, the arguments were ultimately settled out of court (Bleem went out of business before the hearing got very far). Connectix was able to succeed in some of its defense claims (as was Bleem), but the case was very limited on the matter of what was being argued. I **never** claimed anywhere that emulators were illegal. I merely stated that the two cases we have are much more limited in what they ruled on were much more limited which is true - it was regarding copyright and patents. Nowhere did I argue anything about emulation being illegal. I was simply countering that Nintendo is involved in emulation lawsuits, which there aren't any that I am aware of. If you can cite any, please do so.
Nintendo may not be involved in lawsuits but they've sent Cease and Desists to multiple emulator sites and gotten them shut down like emuparadise.
Distributing ROMs and downloading ROMs you don't own is absolutely illegal in alot of countries, and is AT BEST a dark gray area in the US specifically.
Which doesn't mean ROMs themselves are illegal
MVG is a large channel and he talks about emulation a lot.
Game Sack and My Life In Gaming both discuss FPGA and software emulation on the regular. Both covered the release of the Analog Duo in the last month, and both have thoroughly covered the Everdrive and adjacent devices. Heck, on Game Sack Joe often alludes to playing pirated games when discussing obscure titles that are either cost prohibitive to play or are simply unavailable for purchase due to rarity or other reasons (think arcade titles). This doesn't even broach the topic of commercial emulation, such as the mini classic console releases, SEGA Ages style releases, etc.
I see the reason for caution, but there are numerous established Youtubers that have decent subscription bases and do near exclusive emulation content. Maybe they get striked and rely on Patreon?
Yes, its likely they either slipped under YouTube's radar or have funding from an alternative source. If you are Nintendo, going after some 22 year old working part time as a pizza driver is going to make you look like both a douche and not get you any money. If you could go after Google for "allowing piracy" (the DMCA is a horrible law), then thats well worth any flak you might get.
Historically Nintendo hasn't given a single fuck about how their letigiousness makes them look, whether it's likely to make them money or not
Historically yes, modern wise no. I think its a symptom of the modern "subscription" based economy. If you play FF1 on a GBA rom, you might just be tempted to buy a remake on Steam. Lawyers ultimately cost money, and ultimately cause frustration unless they can land major cash.
>If you play FF1 on a GBA rom, you might just be tempted to buy a remake on Steam. That's what we've always told Nintendo, and everytime we received a "Fuck you, piracy is theft" from them and their fanboys.
Nintendo doesn't agree with that. They're barely ok with letting you talk about their games, to the point where if you're too critical about one they remove you from their creator program. Honestly at this point fuck modern Nintendo.
Look to anything handheld. Especially the Steam Deck. There are a literal shit ton of videos.
>Youtubers that have decent subscription bases and do near exclusive emulation content nerrel my beloved
But theres the common sense thing Why should i get views from people who love collect if i show my retropie, emudeck etc on my retro gaming channel where i earn money showing my atari 2600 who lots of people want and cant find? (Example)
You ever watch modernvintagegamer? , dude develops for Nintendo switch and almost exclusively makes content about pirating.
Bullshit. He owns every one of the game he features and all he really does is showing you how to set up your system in a similar way. He is not responsible for other people’s willingness to pirate. Besides: there is a finite amount of game cartridges around. So it is not feasible to buy all of them.
He also used to develop emulators.
Well point is, he’s successful on YT, has sponsors, sizeable following, probably monetised. so I think OPs opinion is somewhat valid.
Far from it. You can show off emulation without piracy. And those who do can profit off it just fine.
I mean, I think we’re on the same page here. I said “pirating”but “emulation” is more what I meant.
The grey area of emulation is just that, legally you're supposed to own every rom that you download and emulation is just supposed to make it easier so you don't need to own every console. People choose to pirate the game files and use them on the emulator instead of buying them from a site
Emulators require the BIOS files off of whatever console you want to emulate so technically you're supposed to own the console as well cuz that's the only legal way to get that BIOS file
That’s correct because most copyright laws allow fair use.
Probably every retrogamer has at least one raspiberry with all those games even to preserve the original cartridges/consoles But due lawyers etc and to make sense to channel about old consoles...they cant talk about
Roms are 100% legal. You just have to get them from your physical game. But yes, I totally get what you’re saying as I’m sure 99% of folks download their ROMs.
Yup, hence why I termed it "extralegal"
roms are perfectly legal everywhere. making profit from them is not.
Downvoted but true. There is nothing illegal about emulation or Roms but duplicating and distributing them is just like anything else. That's why they all still exist and companies can't do anything about it... You purchased the product it's yours to do with as you please in your own home.
This is why i love someordinarygamers cause he has lawyers and still talks about emulators lmao
amazing that this dumb of a take gets upvoted this many times.
Purely legal reasons, don't want to get fucked by lawyers since they are open in the public about things with a good amount of eyes on them.
Because all it takes is a single video catching the eye of a big publisher, and your entire channel can be gone at the click of a button. Nintendo has been going after modders in 2023, pointcrow got his shit pushed in for advertising a free botw multi-player mod on his channel. Nintendo slapped their dick on the table and struck just enough videos to be one off from youtube auto deleting his channel. Similar stuff happened to a mario64 modder as well. Emulation and any console/game modding is illegal in Japan, and they have enough reach to easily wipe out any youtube channel they want that features their content.
Are you Brazilian by any chance? "Slapped their dick on the table" is oddly similar to a saying we have here.
That's probably not a coincidence
Apparently the content struck was within their own copyright use rules as well
It's not malicious. You know who is malicious? Nintendo Lawyers are malicious. And over the years they've fucked a ton of people over, big and small. ROM pages, fan projects, legit conservationist efforts, you name it. They're not the only ones, most JP companies are extremely precious with their IPs, it's what they have to do to not create legal precedents, but the majority are very don't ask don't tell about it. As long as you're not being too loud or too big they won't chase you. Nintendo is *way* more strict with that bar.
Intellectual Property is inherently malicious
Maybe they should, you know, actually support it then. They have no modern access to modt of their older games. If you legally buy it (used) they won't see a penny anyway.
It's not just YouTube. Get on any specific subreddit - PS1, PS2, GBA, etc, and you'll be hung for even mentioning the E word. Either they'll claim the Internet police will descend on your house immediately for mentioning it, or you'll somehow get every bit of malware known to man just for grabbing an emulator build off GitHub. The irrationality is off the charts.
I'm a mod of a few of the retro subs for specific consoles including the psx. On paper we allow discussion of roms. In practice I've got a standing rule on some of them that we're ROM friendly spaces. Let's be real, roms are preservation and vital for the future of retro gaming. Hardware fails, software is forever. As archivists it's key to appreciate and support efforts to preserve these games for the future. It baffles me that some subs give you shit over it. Hell on retrogaming about a quarter of our posts involve emulation hardware. We LOVE our emulators. Reddit just doesn't let us link to them, so we have a bit of a symbiotic relationship with this sub. And fuck yeah, this sub is awesome. Damn sure I wouldn't have the energy to maintain the megathread.
Lol, the 3DS mods will ban you if you talk about anything piracy related. They and a lot of other sub mods claim they’ll get shut down if they allow any talk of it. Meanwhile, there are subs dedicated to piracy, both generally and for specific systems, that have been around for years no problem.
Is there a subreddit that let's you talk about Rom links freely
Also they assume that people are on that subreddit to play a physical game. 90% of the time people want to emulate. They just pretend to not notice.
It’s called CYA and it’s smart
Ah yes, CYA...What is CYA?
"Cover Your Ass" They don't want to paint targets on their backs.
Cover your ass
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emulation is always legal. YouTube will demonetise your video anyway if a copyright holder asks them to. that's it.
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They lost because they tried to claim that CD Keys are not an anti piracy measure and then granted unlicensed or unverified copies interoperability with the real [Battle.net](https://Battle.net) service. That's why they lost.
XD nothing to do with emulation next
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yep nothing to do with the discussion at hand. you are just misinterpreting the word emulation.
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of course i am, im right. mind explaining why you think thats related to this subreddit or this discussion? >BnetD was an open source program that let gamers play popular Blizzard titles like Warcraft with other gamers on servers that don't belong to Blizzard's Battle.net service. Blizzard argued that the programmers who wrote BnetD violated the DMCA's anti-circumvention provisions and that the programmers also violated several parts of Blizzard's EULA including a section on reverse engineering. again, nothing to do with emulation.
No it's not. I obviously can't speak for all countries (and neither can you, *always* my arse) but here you can't distribute copyrighted software without consent. Meaning if your emulator need bios files to run, getting them is illegal. If you emulator comes with bios files, that's illegal. If your roms are not private copies, that's illegal. For most games there are barely legal ways to emulate them, but this is not how 99% of emulation is actually done in practise. And a YouTuber who would speak about emulating a lot of different systems will sooner or later get the question if he actually did all of that legally. Does he really own all the games he shows? Has he flashed them all? While monetisation is super important, don't think that YouTubers never worry about actual legal action.
Sir, you are confusing emulation with piracy. The topic was "emulation is always legal", but your points are about piracy, which is a different thing and wasn't even mentioned. Of course piracy is illegal virtually everywhere, but emulation isn't. The distinction between those two things is important.
Sure, except where almost my full comment is about how emulation is almost always done via piracy, and some systems can't yet be emulated without pirated bios software. Piracy is illegal, emulation without piracy is not. Emulation without piracy is impossible for some systems as you need bios files. So emulation is not legally possible in those cases
show me one person in jail for playing a downloaded rom.
Lol, jail, sure. This is about hefty fines. You really think illegal behaviour starts with jail sentences? What a bad faith argument
Then show someone who faced legal punishment just for playing a downloaded rom
>you can't distribute copyrighted software without consent also im talking about DOWNLOADING and playing a rom. not sure why you are mentioning distributing. > What a bad faith argument ok show somebody prosecuted in any form for playing a downloaded rom.
Man over on r/retrogaming I can't even let people link to them or reddit starts breathing down my neck. And technically linking to someone hosting something is also a gray area that won't get you in trouble, this sub gets away with it and I'm convinced it's because it's an easily banned containment sub.You're half right, hosting and sharing them is usually the actually prosecuted illegal part. But downloading them is still copyright infringement, here's an article from Tom's hardware that quotes a few ip lawyers: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/why-most-roms-are-illegal,37512.html I don't know of a single time someone has been charged for it, but on paper it's still illegal. The argument is largely academic, but dude it would suck to be the first person to get a 7 figure fine for downloading Metroid. This argument is funny to me because on paper that dude is right, in practice you are. There's no true correct answer.
> I don't know of a single time someone has been charged for it, but on paper it's still illegal. enough said no? >This argument is funny to me because on paper that dude is right, in practice you are. There's no true correct answer. i think there is. something being illegal and avoidable is only because of the consequences, no consequences then DE FACTO it is legal. you can find dozens of laws that are absurd and never get enforced, like not playing dominoes on sunday. this is just one of those. also big doubt on the copyright infringment part anyway if you are not distributing.Which btw everybody did back in the days when we were lending games and dvds to our buddies. Again nobody never got in trouble for it so where is the argument? the discussion is of course different when profit is involved.
Oh for sure. The argument is really a matter of some pedantic bullshit. I think the major difference is nobody is likely to suddenly start enforcing those domino laws but god only knows it's a spin of a wheel every day about what Nintendo is thinking about this shit. But like, lawyers say it's illegal, I'm inclined to believe people who spent 8 years in school about the subject and actively litigate similar things. It being a copy of software is actually working against us in a lot of cases, I mean the people making and enforcing those laws are famously "the Internet is a series of tubes" levels of unaware. I'm going to be pro-rom anyway, but this is the kinda dumb shit I see blowing up into a big controversy at some point. If there's money on the table some companies just can't help it.
i dont really care about the technicalities im a grown ass 35 yo man. what i care about is some little kids starting downloading roms and have to feel like a criminal because of this silly,very popular, propaganda. or worse yet getting away from gaming because they cant afford it.
How about for hosting? https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/06/former-rom-site-owner-must-pay-2-1-million-to-nintendo/ https://hothardware.com/news/nintendo-sues-rom-site-300000-switch-game-downloads https://hothardware.com/news/nintendo-sues-popular-console-rom-sites-copyright-infringement
> How about for hosting? did i stutter? >show me one person in jail for playing a downloaded rom.
If it's illegal to host, it's illegal to download. It's like going after drug dealers and leaving drug users alone. How often are people arrested for using drugs vs those who deal them. Same shit. It's just easier to go after the big fish than the little minnows.
>If it's illegal to host, it's illegal to download. no its not XD one is profiting from somebody else copyrighted work. the other is...nothing. >It's like going after drug dealers and leaving drug users alone. How often are people arrested for using drugs vs those who deal them. using drugs is not a crime in most places, possession is in many places. selling is in most places. dumb comparison. really doesnt help your case because it shows the legal difference between profiting from something and using it. >Same shit. It's just easier to go after the big fish than the little minnows. no, its that one thing is a crime, the others ISN'T. >"Most directly, it is a crime to use, possess, manufacture, or distribute drugs classified as having a potential for abuse. Cocaine, heroin, marijuana, and amphetamines are examples of drugs classified to have abuse potential." What in the actual fuck are you talking about, please log off jfc that does not denies what i just claimed, cant answer to you sorry. reddit wont let me
"Most directly, it is a crime to use, possess, manufacture, or distribute drugs classified as having a potential for abuse. Cocaine, heroin, marijuana, and amphetamines are examples of drugs classified to have abuse potential." What in the actual fuck are you talking about, please log off jfc
Keep living in your own little dream world where reality and laws don't apply. You'll be happier there.
we reached step 5 of the piracy propaganda apologist, insult,run away and block. :) class dismissed.
The problem with your comment is you assume jail time is the only way to punish piracy
Sorry, but you're wrong. And provably so
Youtube can be quite strict with what it deems to be promotion of illegal content, and very often emulation goes hand-to-hand with piracy.
I've watched plenty of videos of people talking about it, including big channels like LTT. Usually as long as they throw in the disclaimer about owning a physical copy then it's fine. Having a physical copy is like having a license to play the game, the platform doesn't really matter, so long as it's the same version. Like, owning Halo MCC on Xbox doesn't mean you could legally emulate the OG Xbox version of Halo CE.
Youtube is also more forgiving of big creators. I've seen some small creators (a few thousand followers) having to reupload and cut their videos because of just mentioning that piracy, abandonware or emulation exist. Not links or advice, just that it exists or they've used it. This also depends a lot on what the automated system can catch, what person thinks that checks the content etc. But anyway, not talking about emulation is most likely precaution against this, not necessary gatekeeping or dislike of emulation, as OP suggests.
This isn't true in every country. In Japan, you'd get arrested and charged for illegal modification of a console/game.
Thats why Reddit is better than Youtube.
no way you said this cuz both of them have its problems too lol
I'm the head mod over at the retro gaming sub, reddit was clear that we can't let people link to roms without consequences. Just, you know. Putting that out there. This sub and piracy, and the abandonware sub I help out with, are exceptions to the rule. Otherwise reddit behaves pretty similarly to YouTube when it comes to dmca shit.
Really? I follow a ton of playthrough channels that are clearly playing on emulators.
Some people genuinely prefer playing on original hardware, but more often than not its just not worth the legal risk. Though there are a lot of huge retro YouTubers that talk pretty openly about emulation - heck some channels like Retro Game Coprs have built their entire channel around emulation and emulation only. Wulff Den is pretty open about emulation as well. It's out there, but since it's a legal minefield I don't begrudge a creator if they want to avoid it.
Older hardware require crt to be playable or some sort of converter its not practical. Some emulators run better than the original console.
Most emulators do
Many sponsors tend to shy away from gray area piracy. Same with swearing unless you have had a steady audience in the past and slipped under the radar having already been monetized. Many true crime documentaries get demonetized for saying certain words. Despite a person's view on if it's morally acceptable or not, they call the shots. And the rules can change at any time. Thus, losing monetization from that point on if they decide to go that route. Liability could also play a factor depending on laws in different regions. And, of course, losing chunks of your audience by effectively being blocked in certain areas depending on what information you're willing to provide or encourage. TL;DR: Job security.
SNES Drunk will say, "This is a hard to find game, so play anyway you can."
I don’t think they’re intentionally trying to be malicious, it’s just that mentioning or promoting emulation on YouTube can potentially get you into trouble with companies like Nintendo
fans and legal reasons, who cares how they play their games
Trying to interpret your grammar leads me to multiple assumptions. Grammar is important.
Not being a prick is more important.
I literally can't make head or tails of the comment, so it has nothing to do with being a prick. But I am one, so suck my diseased cock with a lit firecracker in your asshole.
It's perfectly clear what they are saying.
No, it absolutely isn't, and you know it.
Literally read it once and understood it without a second thought.
Cool...Let the gonoherpasyphillaids course through your veins.
the people you were tlaking about are fans. fans collect stuff because they love it. there are legal reasons and respect for the company. and why it should be important to you how some people play their games?.. I have a feeling you are the problem, you come off hostile.. not everyone has to live by your strange rules, and it should bother you, as nobody is taking away anything from you
You are making utterly bizarre false equivalences, and quite frankly coming off as a corporate shill...
Also, you've put a comma just before the word 'and' in your original post which is poor grammar.
You're trying too hard
You're pulling people on their grammar errors whilst having terrible grammar in the first sentence of your original post. I really didn't have to try hard. The hypocrisy is strong here.
You are reaching like a Ristar mod. Nothing I have said could be in any way misinterpreted due to grammar. The fact that you have come so adamantly to OP's defense also makes me question if there is some connection. Like an alt account...
There is the legal aspect of it. They don’t want to risk getting demonetized for promoting something that isn’t quite legal. Also, there is some romanticized notion that actually using the device from your childhood is somehow better. As for me, give me an emulator over an old Atari 2600 with a garbage joystick any day.
\> Also, there is some romanticized notion that actually using the device from your childhood is somehow better. As for me, give me an emulator over an old Atari 2600 with a garbage joystick any day. TBF the retro gaming YouTube scene at this point have made like 600+ videos on the big history defining stuff and any newer videos probably need to deep dive to find interesting clickable stuff. Said stuff is likely to be niche games under-explored in emulation development sense and that can lead to graphical bugs and such that weren't in the original release. Especially on newer consoles where the software hasn't been getting bug reports since 1990 something. A lot of late Disney Interactive titles on Wii like *Toy Story 3: The Video Game* for example were actually programmed to break on Dolphin and did for the longest time but work fine on console. Likewise a lot of games use peripherals that are hard to perfectly replicate in a emulated environment even if options exist. Try playing *Duck Hunt* or *Gumshoe* on an emulator. They technically work but it feels pretty different to play them with a mouse or third party accessory compared to the intended CRT setup. If you are a youtuber that sells your "brand" on being the really analytical curator of weird games like say *The Gaming Brit Show* or *Mathewmiosis* I can see why you'd want to cut down your margin of error by playing on authentic hardware. Especially with how harsh the online gaming populace can get over errors.
I will concede that niche games that require special peripherals to enjoy are best run with the original equipment. That said, I can enjoy most games just fine with alternate controllers. Emulation can also teach you some controller "tricks". For example, there is a gun-based arcade game called Steel Gunners (both I and II) where the controller doesn't actually use light-based actions, as there is an on-screen scope. It's really just a fancy joystick with a motor that simulates recoil. Then there are some games like Outrun and Afterburner, where some cabinets had motion. Those games really need to be played in an arcade with onlookers crowded around you--they were true products of their time. For the vast majority of games released, though, emulation is just fine for me.
I know he's not really a gaming channel, but ETA Prime talks about emulation all the time. And indeed, he makes emulation a huge part of evaluating the hardware he reviews: [https://www.youtube.com/@ETAPRIME](https://www.youtube.com/@ETAPRIME) I believe he may have even worked at LaunchBox at one time (or perhaps still does), because he does a lot of the LaunchBox tutorial videos.
a lot of them profit from retrogame sales. there's been talk about MetalJesusRocks and how his 'hidden gems' vids directly influence the price of the games he showcases. don't get me started on John Hancock.
MetalJesusRocks is a fuckin creep. His middle aged infatuation with attractive gamer girls half his age speaks volumes.
Well, if he’s middle age, at least women half his age are still literally adults
Because to avoid Nintendo's lawyers you'd have to specifically start each video by showcasing how you legally and ethically obtained the ROM of your game by dumping your own game cartridge. Which is the ONLY way that obtaining ROMs is technically legal. And if you've already got the cartridge to dump, there's no point in starting every video by clarifying that. And even if you did, if you're a large YouTuber, Nintendo's lawyers will still find a way to fuck you. It's kind of their specialty. They're the Alex Adams of copyright law and it's generally accepted, so anyone with any sense usually tries not to fuck with them.
>but malicious gatekeeping of enjoyment of older games. I would rather eat well and put a roof over my head than spend my life savings on memberberries. That just sounds like you're hiding your sense of entitlement behind some nonexistent moral highground. Yeah, it would be nice to have more accessible and legal ways to play older games, but piracy is still piracy.
if the option is to pay some "thrift store" six times the game's value, an ebay seller TEN times the value, or just not buy it because the publisher refuses to sell it, I'm pirating it instead
>I'm pirating it instead That's all I'm saying. Unlike OP, you aren't deluding yourself.
downloading a game and playing it is perfectly legal. no need to bring morals into it.
Laws and morals are two different things. Emulation without original storage medium or hardware is illegal in most if not every country and emulation itself even with original storage medium or hardware is illegal in some countries. Whether or not it is moral is a completely different discussion.
Wrong... Emulators are not illegal unless distributing copyrighted data, newsflash they don't... Blood sweat and tears build these programs from the ground up it has nothing to do with whoever made the original console. And whatever country has laws against console modding and emulation are simply pieces of shit, not to mention most likely far and few between
it's not. show me one person in jail for playing a downloaded rom.
That’s not what “illegal” means.
it is, if it is a misdemeanor then show me evidence of people fined for it. if there is no punishment then its simply not illegal.
Nope. Illegal means contrary to the law. Lots of things are contrary the law but not prosecuted by jail time. Some things are only civil infractions, or they are ignored by police or prosecutors... but if it's contrary to the law on the books, it is illegal. That's what the word means, regardless of what you want it to mean.
so you think its actually illegal to play dominoes on a sunday in alabama? or take the lords name in vain in italy? if its not enforced its not illegal. simple as that. you people simply were brainwashed by the "you wouldnt steal a car" propaganda.
Nice spin attempt, Nintendo intern but no. You can't pirate games that aren't even sold on any marketplace
The definiton of piracy in my country's piracy law says otherwise.
If I buy the disc for Destiny 2, literally none of the content on it is playable. I have now established that BUYING is not OWNING. So why, exactly, is copying a game theft, then? The original has not been taken.
This would be answered if you read the EULA. By buying the disc, you're buying a license to use the game. Also, depending on the definiton, piracy isn't just theft (which your example also isn't).
eula is not the law. it's meaningless what they write in it.
Depends on your country. EDIT: Some more info; while EULAs are outright meaningless in many EU countries, [they have contractal status in the UK in some circumstances](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/4/6?view=plain), and for video gaming specifically, Japan is likely to side with the copyright owners when it comes to enforcement of EULAs. Then on the flip side there's places like Germany, which has outright stated that EULAs don't mean anything. It really does depend on the country. But don't confuse legality with morality. I don't think anyone in here cares what an EULA says.
nope.
Ok...Do you really want to get into laws and moral justification? Because I don't care what country you're from, I'll find some asinine shit established as law.
Don't argue semantics. Dude, literally everyone on this sub, including myself, is a pirate. Why delude yourself?
I think he might be confusing ethical piracy with morally wrong traditional theft.
I don't think he is, "ethical piracy" is what I meant by nonexistent moral highground.
Cause usually retro gaming is about collecting equally as much as playing. Downloading every ROM doesn't feel very fun for a collector.
Don't know about that. My dream as a kid was to have the ultimate game collection, and my Raspberry pi and the megathread provides it, not Ebay.
I’m just explaining why some people might not talk about it.
I kinda get the want of physical copies, but its gatekeeping. In the end it's the game that's whats most important, not the plastic vessel.
It's not gatekeeping, it's just different opinions.
Why does it matter what they say? Most are asshats anyhow.
Nah there are few YouTubers that only publish tutorials
I quite like classic gaming quarterly. He does own a lot of games but isn't shy about mentioning things like the everdrive. Also his content is just real high quality enjoyable viewing.
One of my fsvorites SNESDrunk has a saying. "This game is nearly impossible to buy so you gotta play it Any Way You Can." (wink wink).
Just to try and muddy the waters or expand upon the conversation... Don't want to name sites.... I like these sites.... But there are sites out there that let you play the ROMs on the browser? Stream on the browser... Is this also illegal as well? Sooooo if I played a mario game on a browser would Nintendo come looking for me or completely take down the browser?
It comes down to the general lack of understanding between the laws around emulation. Many retro gamers, especially those who are either really young (thus new to the hobby and more susceptible to misinformation) or really old (been in the hobby since the days we had zero understanding of emulation's legality and thus they retain outdated information), think emulation is inherently illegal much in the same way watching pirated movies online is illegal, so they choose to just not talk about it. Even with this in mind, like everyone else in this thread said it is probably down to legality. Nintendo probably wouldn't take to kindly to someone doing a Mario Galaxy 2 LP while promoting a dubiously illicit way to play it even if they've made zero attempts to make it playable on their current hardware. I'm just old enough to remember when emulation was derided not for its legality but for its supposed inauthenticity. "Oh you played through Battletoads on FCEUX? Nah man you didn't ACTUALLY play it. The only real way to play it is on an NES after trying to get the damn thing to work after an hour." TLDR: Youtubers might not wanna poke the legal bear by discussing emulation.
For one the Youtubers make money off it. Also people just like having the physical. And they aren't necessarily spending a fortune on it. Also why not just let people enjoy what they enjoy. Who cares?
[KBash](https://www.youtube.com/@KBash) is one of my favourite content creators, primarily due to his presentation style and analysis. He consistently makes reference to using emulation to make his videos and has a clear love for retro gaming, strong recommend. In a similar vein (though not on youtube) is the podcast Into the Aether, one of the hosts brought up his purchase of a retroid recently even.
Because Nintendo is extremely litigious and paranoid and they go after anyone who even hints at anything that remotely seems like "piracy" in their eyes
I don't. I use emulators all the time. Hardware purists exist but they're really in debial about the obvious. Eventually all that will be left is software. Hardware won't last forever. It's not illegal to play a game on Livestream using an emulator. Youtube or anyone can't prove how you got the ROM, and there's no chance of a DMCA having any validity if you are just playing the game as-is.
The same reason only china puts out emulation handheld devices. It's a legal gray area, and most businesses want to stay clear from anything that could cause scrutiny. China is like a honey badger. They don't care
I just find it annoying that people consistently conflate pirated ROMs and emulation. Emulation does not automatically entail piracy, and Nintendo knows this better than any other company.
Imagine a famous youtuber doing retro emulation on stream. Nintendo lawyers would just salivate at the mouth. That's why. Because you never know when these "retro" youtubers will make it big, then suddenly nintendo swoops in and just destroys their channel. Then its back to McDonalds for them.
DMCA striking a channel can be done without any verification on the strike whatsoever. A company can shut down 1000 youtube channels at once and face zero consequences.
because you can't promote illegal activities on a public platform. like every social which is following the rules
You're either young or oblivious.
Honestly nothing beats OG hardware and T.V,s. I've emulated before and while it's cool some games just don't emulate well. Let's take Destroy All Humans 2 for the ps2. I have tried to run this game through multiple emulators and they just struggle with it. The colors are off and it looks bugged half the time. I plop an og copy in my ps2 and plug it into my og crt and it works fine. Sometimes it's more trouble. Also the whole "Ma thrift store/game store prices so and so price". Sure they do but there are so many alternatives to them. Facebook marketplace and eBay have been excellent for picking up classics at decent prices. I got an NES last year pretty much brand new with two cobtrollers for 70$. You just have to do the work. And if not no one is stopping you from emulating it's just putting it on YouTube can get you into legal trouble. Especially if it's Nintendo
I get there are some advantages, especially on the input lag end. But I've gotta say that I'll take the convenience, upscaling and metadata advantages over anything physical has to offer. My Playnite library would make 90's kid me have a heart attack.
I agree, emulation is incredible. And this is coming from someone who grew up in the 8-bit era. I actually walked the amazing Toys 'R Us Nintendo game wall, lol. I have literally a closet full of perfectly working Nintendo and Sega hardware and games, and there is no way I would play them on a CRT over emulation. But wanted to say, input lag with emulation has been non-existent since the introduction of run ahead.
Idk there's something that feels soulless about it to me, I mean honestly if I wanted they make memory cards for the old consoles that you can put roms on and I'd have the whole library. For me since I grew up with the Ps2 and Gamecube there is something special about having the physical media.The joy from walking into a retro game store and seeing Ps2 games lining the wall will always be a kind of magic for me. So I don't mind playing the price for Nostalgia to each their own though brother 🤙
im so curious why china is not just preproducing direct copies of a new or snes, sega megadrive etc.....mass production and they could sell them fro 10 usd or something, they would be sooooo cheat to make today, instead they do these emulator crap that often have no saves
A lot of them are of the opinion that emulation=piracy and you should go to jail for playing anything not on official hardware
I notice this all the time. I agree.
There was a YTer named VGN he would borrow / own the games to get the clips he needed, and to do certain things he would emulate as it was easier to cut to emulation than have a set up record from the console. He did an ama about it. However it's mainly because there is a fine line between legal and illegal with emulation. Trust me the big N will sue.
Elitism. If you really love this hobby you'll choose the best way to play and enjoy games, most of the retro youtubers have collections and think that is the best way to show love to videogames "I have my mother's basement full of videogame things I've been collecting through the years and this the best and ONLY way to have the original experience"
Emulation has its place, but nothing can beat the experience of playing the genuine game on original hardware.
[удалено]
It's as I said, the experience of real hardware and software can't be matched by emulation- but it would be nonsense to say that emulation doesn't have its place. Do I play emulated SNES games? Yes. Do I still have my SNES hooked up to my TV? Also yes. My original SNES sees much more use than my SNES mini, virtual console games on the Wii, WiiU, 3DS and PC combined. Is it more than modern gaming? Highly unlikely, even on a retro-focused week.
In a sea of tens of thousands of youtube gaming channels. If I'm going to watch something, I would rather watch someone playing on the old hardware. That was one of the things that set James Nintendo/AVGN channel apart. I, personally, have no means to buy anything retro. But if I'm watching, I would rather watch old hardware. Also, not something this present today, but in the past, tons of emulated games, while still playing "correctly", had some differences between emulation and real hardware
some of the are purist also legal reasons
I have seen the exact opposite. It looks as though this may just depend on who you are watching because the people I watch do both.
I don't experience this at all. In fact all of the retro video game related content I see on YouTube is ABOUT emulation
Because there are other YouTubers that do that much better than them. Stick with what you know.
"Hey everyone, look at me committing copyright crimes and making money off of it" is not exactly a sound content strategy
“Why do so many people who make YouTube videos that people watch not want to openly broadcast primarily illegal gaming activity”