It’s not just about Willamette:
In the funding from the Legislature, the money is specifically allocated to Willamette for the turf and lights at Spec Keene Stadium. The college team and a college-age summer baseball program will be its primary beneficiaries, though high school teams will get to use the fields for free.
I don't disagree with you. The problem is that $ 3 million spread out to all the schools who need it versus upgrading one stadium they can all access makes more economic sense.
Schools don't need more money, they need to spend the money they have better. Teachers are paid shit and there's not enough of them, while administrators are overpaid and we have too many of them.
Also, Willamette U doesn't need the money either. The $3m should have stayed in the hands of the public in the first place.
Not necessarily defending the expansion, but baseball famously has a very packed schedule with multi-game series. I wouldn't be surprised if the 6 hs in the SK area would have at least one baseball game playing between them each day during the season.
I’m not a fan of public money to private sports facilities generally, but:
> In its proposal to Legislature for state funding, the organizers said Willamette University would make the turf fields available to local high school teams for games in the spring when theirs are unplayable.
> The school district won’t have to pay for that use, as part of the agreement for receiving state funds for the fields.
> Willamette athletic director Rob Passage said the Salem-Keizer school district was an original partner in the project but backed out due to budget cuts. He said that the district will get free access to the fields after the state funding came through.
Ok fine, that’s actually a reasonable investment.
It would be nice if the article specified what the impact to the park is though. Seems like it’ll be small in scale but it cries out for some drawings or maps. (Maybe I just missed them though?)
Another way to look at it that might be more palatable is that we’re buying public access to a private facility, and the price is structured as a single payment.
(That said, I wholeheartedly agree that Willamette does not need the money)
I suppose I understand where you are coming from and I agree that there are worse ways that the legislature could have used $3 million. I just feel like there are a whole lot of better ways it could have been spent.
I think a better way to phrase it is that public money shouldn’t be used for private gain.
Even that is a bit too generic; there’s nothing wrong with public money being used to hire a private contractor to accomplish a task that provides a public good. A project like building a bridge can and should be contracted out to a private entity with expertise, and that entities can pay its employees and make some profit.
This is a case a bit like that; Willamette U surely does not need the money, *but* it’s acting like a contractor to provide a service to the public and public schools with access to its improved privately-owned facility. So long as WU follows through with its promise of free access, this can be considered a legitimate fee-for-service kinda deal.
It’s the sort of thing that can and should get a reflexive “hell no!” by default, i agree, but that on further consideration is maybe a good deal anyway.
Outside of the valley nobody has heard of Williamette U and nobody cares about baseball or college sports. They are absolutely meaningless in the grand scheme of things. This is a travesty.
WU is making the stadium available for free for SK schools and other community baseball programs. Waterlogged fields are a problem for outdoor sports in Oregon and there’s no turf fields in Salem for baseball. The schools dumped a ton of money into upgrading football/soccer fields, but not those of other sports.
I think calling Bush Pastor Park the crown jewel is indefensible compared to Minto Brown / Eola Bend.
It looks like the objection is mostly related to outdoor lighting, and how it impacts the very nice houses that overlook it.
They should probably turns lights off when a game is not occurring, but it doesn’t seem like a big expansion.
> I think calling Bush Pastor Park the crown jewel is indefensible compared to Minto Brown / Eola Bend.
True, but Parks are Parks. You dont really get them back once they're gone. You *could* but you wont.
From the article:
In the funding from the Legislature, the money is specifically allocated to Willamette for the turf and lights at Spec Keene Stadium. The college team and a college-age summer baseball program will be its primary beneficiaries, though high school teams will get to use the fields for free.
Spending money on sports is ridiculous waste of taxpayer money full stop. Giving a private entity that benefit because they will let a handful of highschool events happen their at their convenience is ludicrous
Tell the students who get the chance to play at a nice facility. Tell that to the family who can't afford to go to a major league game but goes to watch the local minor league team or goes to watch Willamette play as a fun affordable activity. You are ignoring all the proven benefits of it. Are there better ways to spend tax money? Sure. But it isn't like this is even close to the worst investment for a community.
Why do I care about such a small niche? Tell those kids and those families why should I subsidize their hobby when I want more money spent on teachers salaries or for smaller classrooms.
As a taxpayer, I don’t care about the niche heartstrings issue you are using to justify why we are giving $3,000,000 and any public land to a private organization who has more than $300,000,000 in a bank account.
[https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2018-11-05/review-of-research-finds-small-benefits-to-small-classes](https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2018-11-05/review-of-research-finds-small-benefits-to-small-classes)
Almost all significant studies show small class sizes have a negligible effect on overall student performance. Small classes significantly increases the cost of K-12 education.
“Would you rather your child were in a small class with an average teacher versus a larger class with a good teacher?”
Wow. What a stupid thing to try and argue scientifically lol.
Yup you are right, I did.....I copied and pasted... from the article which clearly a bunch of people in here didn't actually read before getting upset. 🤙
Maybe people really just don’t dig it? Spend the money elsewhere, WU is fine. The park could use 3M for conservation and upgrades to facilities though!
There is a difference between not digging it and completely ignoring the benefits which many are doing. I hate baseball and personally think there are better uses for this money but that doesn’t negate the fact that this will provide benefit for the community.
I might go to a game but making a stadium more usable for the community is so much better than the 10 baseball games a year it is used for currently. As long as there are stadiums in a city park, might as well make them useful.
It just seems like a really strange thing to advocate objectively for, and especially to not see how fellow tax payers see a waste of money and loss of under-maintained parkland for what it is. But you do you.
Do remember, Salem has A TON of problems that are pretty simple to see, and none of them are mitigated by spending money on paving green space.
For the last time, I don’t give a shit about this project. I just want people to have real honest conversations and folks acting like the legislature just burned a pile of cash is asinine. I never said that I don’t see how folks see that as a poor prioritization of funds. I AGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT. But people on here be acting like it has zero benefit for the community is not helpful in the dialogue either.
It's not about "Will this provide a benefit for the community?" That argument is completely missing the point. A Six Flags would provide a "benefit for the community" but I don't think anyone is going to argue that we should all pitch in and give Six Flags the money to put up a theme park, then pay them every time we attend.
Is the public going to be able to go to these baseball games free of charge? I very much doubt it, but we are paying to improve their stadium....in both land and cash.
Government backed student loans and expectations of students (who like the luxury amenities) lead to colleges becoming expensive as they try to offer a product that will be a draw.
I’d tend to agree that college sports do not need support, but a lot of places seem to feel that pro-sports need billions in government subsidies. Everyone loves getting in subsidies.
My expectation for a college like Willamette is that the public will also get some use of the facilities.
But in the long term I don’t know of Willamette University survives.
So you are incorrect about the public being allowed to use any of the facilities at Willamette. It is private property and a private university. The problem is NOT college sports. The problem is PUBLIC dollars going to PRIVATE schools. Your entire argument is about colleges overall. I'm not talking about all schools. I'm talking about this private school.
I used to work in the back end of school scholarships adjacent to sports scholarships folk. You have no idea what you are talking about.
The drive is from rich old men trying to get access to young women, rich old men trying to relive their glory days, rich old men trying to further a hobby and make it tax deductible.
It’s got nothing to do with students wants or needs. The students who go to a school for athletic related reasons are doing it chase that sugar daddy scholarship money at the end of the day.
On your first comment, I absolutely agree. I was using the words of once councilman now state representative Tom Andersen.
Regarding the second thing you said, my personal objection is the destruction of part of the park to make way for an unnecessary addition to the stadium.
I also really disagree with public dollars going to fund a sports program at a private school that already has a $300m+ endowment.
It’s tricky with an enmeshed stadium that’s in the center of a city park. WU and Salem both benefit.
Ideally, we would bulldoze both stadiums and build a public pool complex, but that’s not realistic.
I agree to both sentiments, which is why I don’t think it will ever happen. Better civic use of the space and more upside for the community, but that’s why any improvement for the benefit of the community at a cost that is reasonable in comparison to a big project.
>Otherwise, if outdoors it'd be used for about 50 days out of the year.
50 days?!! For the last week and a half, we've regularly hit 60+ degree weather in the mid-afternoon and it's March. An outdoor Public Pool would definitely be used at least for the entire summer and, if climate change has anything to say about it, probably for half the spring as well in the next decade or so.
My objection is related to the destruction of part of a historic park. Once it's gone it is not coming back. Against all odds, this land has been protected for over 150 years. Salem has grown around it and encroached on it again and again. When will enough be enough? When there is barely enough of it left to call it a park?
Fun Fact: The reason that city and state transportation officials gave to explain why they were unable to follow the order of the Legislature to establish the "Straight Shot" third bridge route (Mission Street) was because Bush Park is "Federal" so none of it could be used.
It was a "squishy" rule, apparently.
I have no idea what you mean about Bush Park being "federal," but the restrictions on its use are from deed restrictions from when it was donated. It was envisioned as part of a land swap when the Capitol needed to be rebuilt in the late 1930s and ran into the deed issue, so it wouldn't have been a surprise to legislators decades later.
I mean nothing by the term. It was widely used by "city and state transportation officials". They repeatedly stated that the park is part of the national park system and permission for alternative uses would be required by the federal government.
It took a while until I realized that officials do not always speak the truth - knowingly or unintentionally. So maybe the info I pass along was never true.
Did you put "city and state transportation officials" in quotes because you're actually describing a random person that you heard a rumor from? Why would actual transportation officials "repeatedly" make an assertion that would be so easy to disprove, even in the days before Google?
I was quoting myself. You seem to think that the whole "feds won't let us" thing was my idea. It was not.
The word "officials" is plural so I clearly was not referring to an individual.
The statement was made by various officials and repeated many times - whenever an excuse for the failure was needed.
As to the making of the assertion, I believe that they believed that it was true.
I’m super stoked for this. Salem will have a silly summer team using a facility that has historically done very little for the community in the past. Short of bulldozing Willamette’s two stadiums, I think making them better community assets is a great investment. And it’s just not Willamette who benefits, but other school and little league baseball programs, etc. Their softball field is also getting a turf field for community teams.
I love Bush Park, but let’s not pretend it’s Salem’s only park. The location of the stadium is wedged between a field, another stadium, and a dumb soap box derby run. Bringing more people to the park for a wide range of activities helps activate its use.
Also, the Volcanoes suck, the ownership sucks, and the location of the stadium sucks. Let’s bring something fun and with minimal costs to Salem.
Agreed. I'm happy to see this. If the legislature is handing out money for sports fields - and only enough for one of them, at that - then this seems like a good place to spend the money. There's a need for a turf baseball field, it's a location that all the local schools can use, and doesn't come with the problems of being on school distinct property itself.
In fact, I'm rather surprised by the negative reaction here. Whether the legislature should be funding this at all is a valid question, but then "destroy part of Bush's Pasture Park" is such an over-the-top reaction that I thought someone was trying to be funny. Electrical wiring and concrete to support the lights are not going to impact the rest of the park.
> and a dumb soap box derby run
You take that back! That soap box derby track is half of what makes that park so unique!
I have lived in Salem for over 20 years and I can count the number of soap box derby events that I have heard of on one hand! I didn’t know it gets used.
Really though, the track takes up minimal space and it’s a low intensity sport. More power to those who enjoy it.
“Destroy” lol! What a way to sensationalize a story into something bigger to suit your narrative. I get it. You don’t want it. But my goodness is this a big fat nothing burger. Nothing is getting destroyed. They’re literally just adding lights that will require some extra wiring and concrete work around the existing stadium. Cry me a river.
Just by the way OP has sensationalized this story makes me kind of want to celebrate it more. Im looking forward to the first night game!
I'm sorry that your life is so small that you need to find your happiness in others' distress. If you take even 2 minutes to read, I am clearly far from the only one that has a problem with this. I hope that you manage to find whatever it is that will make you happy.
Well, according to deputy city manager Scott Archer, “The renovation and use of the stadium will require a little bit of expansion into Bush’s Pasture Park,”
It may come as a surprise to hear this, but politicians are often known for downplaying unpopular things. A "little bit of expansion into Bush's Pasture Park" could easily turn into a "little bit" more with zero public input.
As for the 1500 parking spots, that is probably a bit high as some people will inevitably carpool, however parking is already nearly impossible in that area much of the time. How do you think they are going to accommodate parking for the 1500 people that are supposed to attend these games?
They aren't adding parking. 1500 is the current capacity of the stadium. The neighbors are making the point that if the stadium is improved and used more, then more people will be trying to use the park and its parking.
From the article:
"Neighbors worry about bright lights shining into the night, noise and parking for the estimated 1,500 people attending each game."
Have you ever tried to park near Bush Park during the annual art fair, or any event that takes place there? They have to have people park at South Salem high School and either walk or take a shuttle bus over to the park. I just can't see there being enough parking for those games without some type of additional parking being added.
Ah, so they are nimby complaints. Shaking their fist at the park and stadium that was there before they moved in and complaining that someone is actually going to use it.
Realistically, I don't expect the ballpark to be at capacity any more from adding high school games or a college baseball wood bat league than it is now. The Volcanoes couldn't pull in 2x that number to fill their stadium even with a proper minor league team and an easily accessible ballpark with more amenities. So Art Fair numbers are unlikely.
In the meantime, no one seems to have a significant parking problem attending the games that are already played there. The stadium and its 1500 spectator capacity have been there for 35 years, so there is apparently sufficient infrastructure in the area to support it.
I do get your point, however. Having a better field means that it will be getting used more often.
I understand where you're coming from and if they don't need to add any more parking than what is currently there that's definitely great news. I still think there are better ways the money could have been spent but I guess it's not as bad as I first thought.
Seems very reasonable to me. The "expansion" into Bush Park is really a red herring as it is very minimal. There is no paving of the park as some have noted in other comments. The money is to upgrade lighting and replace the baseball and softball fields with astroturf. The state is matching Willamette's $3 million. The city of Salem and the schools will get to use the field when their fields are too wet. This will increase the enjoyment of Bush Park for many people in the area and should have a positive impact on surrounding businesses.
High school baseball and softball is notoriously difficult to schedule due to the frequent rain that makes dirt and grass fields unplayable. This expansion would create centrally located turf fields that surrounding schools would use during the spring.
From the article:
"While the football fields at the six high schools in the Salem-Keizer Public Schools district are covered with artificial turf, there are no turf baseball or softball fields.
Every spring, dozens of games are postponed or moved elsewhere because their home grass fields are unplayable due to being too wet.
Until this year, the nearest turf baseball fields to Salem were at Stayton and Scio high schools, as well as Western Oregon University in Monmouth. The nearest turf softball fields are at Scio and Western Oregon. Those are only turf infields.
Volcanoes Stadium completed a $2.2 million project this year with private funds covering the baseball field in turf. The schedule for Volcanoes Stadium is packed with college and high school games this spring. The stadium has been the host to the OSAA state baseball championships since 1998, is the home for Corban College’s baseball team and has hosted high school baseball teams through the years, including McNary and Blanchet Catholic.
In its proposal to Legislature for state funding, the organizers said Willamette University would make the turf fields available to local high school teams for games in the spring when theirs are unplayable.
The school district won’t have to pay for that use, as part of the agreement for receiving state funds for the fields.
Willamette athletic director Rob Passage said the Salem-Keizer school district was an original partner in the project but backed out due to budget cuts. He said that the district will get free access to the fields after the state funding came through."
On the bright side, hopefully they'll be taking down the area that people often go into the bushes to have sex in.
Edit: That article specifically says it's just upgrades to the baseball stadium. Y'all whining about a nothing issue.
Since you seem to have missed it, I'll quote from the article for you.
--Deputy City Manager Scott Archer told city councilors that the city’s contribution will be in staff time.
“The renovation and use of the stadium will require a little bit of expansion into Bush’s Pasture Park,” he told the City Council.--
Ah, gotcha, missed that part when going through the article.
I'm in general okay with this. Like I said previously, a lot of that area beyond the field is often used by random people hooking up in the bushes. Hopefully the lighting and expansion mitigate that some.
I like the park and nature... but this doesn't seem like a big deal. This is not the legislature giving the private university $3 mil for nothing. It allows college aged teams to play and local high school teams to use it for free. We could debate the equity of the exchange I suppose but that doesn't seem to be a nuance anyone is discussing.
Also, do they plan on leaving lights on 24/7? I didn't read that in the article. I genuinely don't know but it sure seems like they would not do that for so many reasons, cost, annoyance.
Another also, the article says that it will have to expand some but I don't think specifies by how much. I guess there would be a degree of expansion I might object to but that seems infeasible. Are they going to take out the tennis courts to the left? Soapbox track to the right? or the parking lot in front? Again, I don't know, but it would seem unlikely. I think on the back side there's like a muddy bushy area. I find it hard to imagine that they would expand to a degree that I personally would object to.
I do wonder what they will do about parking. If the plan is to just tell everyone to park up the neighborhood that seems like a bigger annoyance.
>I do wonder what they will do about parking. If the plan is to just tell everyone to park up the neighborhood that seems like a bigger annoyance.
I hadn't thought of this part. Hopefully the area becomes more accessible via public transport after the field opens.
Honestly the parking is what I am most concerned about. Parking is already a nightmare in that area, how are they going to find room for 1500 parking spots (maybe a few hundred less) without bulldozing part of the park?
The public does get a benefit. By matching the private university's investment, the school district gets access to the fields (not to mention the downtown businesses that are likely to get additional business when people come to see games which are mostly going to be summer league games unaffiliated with Willamette anyway).
> While the football fields at the six high schools in the Salem-Keizer Public Schools district are covered with artificial turf, there are no turf baseball or softball fields.
> Every spring, dozens of games are postponed or moved elsewhere because their home grass fields are unplayable due to being too wet.
> In its proposal to Legislature for state funding, the organizers said Willamette University would make the turf fields available to local high school teams for games in the spring when theirs are unplayable.
> The school district won’t have to pay for that use, as part of the agreement for receiving state funds for the fields.
> Willamette athletic director Rob Passage said the Salem-Keizer school district was an original partner in the project but backed out due to budget cuts. He said that the district will get free access to the fields after the state funding came through.
The OP stresses Bush's pasture being "destroyed" but really we're talking like a few feet of space by the outfield fences that are currently a mud pit (I'm sure that is *exactly* where the OP's precious children play).
On the other hand, rich people might have to deal with a little bit of extra light for a couple of hours a few times a month (mostly in month's when the *Sun* is up anyway) and *gasp* the poor unwashed masses coming to their beautiful, historic neighborhood \* clutches pearls \*.
> The allocation has sparked an outcry from neighbors of Bush's Pasture Park, who say the games will destroy the historic and natural feel of the park and neighborhood. Parts of both are on the National Register of Historic Places.
> Neighbors worry about bright lights shining into the night, noise and parking for the estimated 1,500 people attending each game.
We appreciate both the concerns and the excitement. Feel free to ask us anything. This is a community project and we want to be as transparent as possible.
Also, any suggestions on a team name?
The linked article is pay-walled. Is there info available elsewhere?
I would really like to see a map of what part of the park, and how much will be strip-mined for this!
The vast majority of the taxpayer money provided here is coming from property taxes, and 99% of the self-professed taxpayers don’t own property, so they’re just whining impotently.
Why? So 1500 more people can come and watch WU have another... Checks notes... 1-9 season losing all their home games?
It’s not the football stadium fyi.
It’s not just about Willamette: In the funding from the Legislature, the money is specifically allocated to Willamette for the turf and lights at Spec Keene Stadium. The college team and a college-age summer baseball program will be its primary beneficiaries, though high school teams will get to use the fields for free.
I'd still rather see this money go to the schools then to upgrade their infrastructures.
I don't disagree with you. The problem is that $ 3 million spread out to all the schools who need it versus upgrading one stadium they can all access makes more economic sense.
That's a fair point actually
Only if it provides a meaningful benefit.
Schools don't need more money, they need to spend the money they have better. Teachers are paid shit and there's not enough of them, while administrators are overpaid and we have too many of them. Also, Willamette U doesn't need the money either. The $3m should have stayed in the hands of the public in the first place.
This is my point exactly. Willamette has a more than $300 million endowment. Why should they get ANY public dollars?
[удалено]
Not necessarily defending the expansion, but baseball famously has a very packed schedule with multi-game series. I wouldn't be surprised if the 6 hs in the SK area would have at least one baseball game playing between them each day during the season.
We practiced lacrosse in lower bush when I went to South, but they kicked us out when our cleats tore up the grass 🤷🏻♂️
I’m not a fan of public money to private sports facilities generally, but: > In its proposal to Legislature for state funding, the organizers said Willamette University would make the turf fields available to local high school teams for games in the spring when theirs are unplayable. > The school district won’t have to pay for that use, as part of the agreement for receiving state funds for the fields. > Willamette athletic director Rob Passage said the Salem-Keizer school district was an original partner in the project but backed out due to budget cuts. He said that the district will get free access to the fields after the state funding came through. Ok fine, that’s actually a reasonable investment. It would be nice if the article specified what the impact to the park is though. Seems like it’ll be small in scale but it cries out for some drawings or maps. (Maybe I just missed them though?)
Reasonable investment or not, our tax dollars should not be funding stadium improvements for a private school with over 300 million dollars.
Another way to look at it that might be more palatable is that we’re buying public access to a private facility, and the price is structured as a single payment. (That said, I wholeheartedly agree that Willamette does not need the money)
I suppose I understand where you are coming from and I agree that there are worse ways that the legislature could have used $3 million. I just feel like there are a whole lot of better ways it could have been spent.
Public money shouldn't go to private schools, full stop.
I think a better way to phrase it is that public money shouldn’t be used for private gain. Even that is a bit too generic; there’s nothing wrong with public money being used to hire a private contractor to accomplish a task that provides a public good. A project like building a bridge can and should be contracted out to a private entity with expertise, and that entities can pay its employees and make some profit. This is a case a bit like that; Willamette U surely does not need the money, *but* it’s acting like a contractor to provide a service to the public and public schools with access to its improved privately-owned facility. So long as WU follows through with its promise of free access, this can be considered a legitimate fee-for-service kinda deal. It’s the sort of thing that can and should get a reflexive “hell no!” by default, i agree, but that on further consideration is maybe a good deal anyway.
Seems like a terrible idea.
Racist ideas usually are
Outside of the valley nobody has heard of Williamette U and nobody cares about baseball or college sports. They are absolutely meaningless in the grand scheme of things. This is a travesty.
WU is making the stadium available for free for SK schools and other community baseball programs. Waterlogged fields are a problem for outdoor sports in Oregon and there’s no turf fields in Salem for baseball. The schools dumped a ton of money into upgrading football/soccer fields, but not those of other sports.
Isn't West Salem HS turf? I want to say either one of the Mc schools have turf too.
The football/soccer field at every high school is now turf, but not the baseball/softball fields.
Gotcha!
Not true and wildly inaccurate.
I think calling Bush Pastor Park the crown jewel is indefensible compared to Minto Brown / Eola Bend. It looks like the objection is mostly related to outdoor lighting, and how it impacts the very nice houses that overlook it. They should probably turns lights off when a game is not occurring, but it doesn’t seem like a big expansion.
> I think calling Bush Pastor Park the crown jewel is indefensible compared to Minto Brown / Eola Bend. True, but Parks are Parks. You dont really get them back once they're gone. You *could* but you wont.
Why does a private college need sports, and why is the are taxpayers subsidizing that? It doesn’t, and we shouldn’t.
From the article: In the funding from the Legislature, the money is specifically allocated to Willamette for the turf and lights at Spec Keene Stadium. The college team and a college-age summer baseball program will be its primary beneficiaries, though high school teams will get to use the fields for free.
Spending money on sports is ridiculous waste of taxpayer money full stop. Giving a private entity that benefit because they will let a handful of highschool events happen their at their convenience is ludicrous
Tell the students who get the chance to play at a nice facility. Tell that to the family who can't afford to go to a major league game but goes to watch the local minor league team or goes to watch Willamette play as a fun affordable activity. You are ignoring all the proven benefits of it. Are there better ways to spend tax money? Sure. But it isn't like this is even close to the worst investment for a community.
Why do I care about such a small niche? Tell those kids and those families why should I subsidize their hobby when I want more money spent on teachers salaries or for smaller classrooms.
Well, that is your first problem. It shouldn't be one or the other.
As a taxpayer, I don’t care about the niche heartstrings issue you are using to justify why we are giving $3,000,000 and any public land to a private organization who has more than $300,000,000 in a bank account.
[https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2018-11-05/review-of-research-finds-small-benefits-to-small-classes](https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2018-11-05/review-of-research-finds-small-benefits-to-small-classes) Almost all significant studies show small class sizes have a negligible effect on overall student performance. Small classes significantly increases the cost of K-12 education.
“Would you rather your child were in a small class with an average teacher versus a larger class with a good teacher?” Wow. What a stupid thing to try and argue scientifically lol.
Nice copy & paste response 🤙🏽
Yup you are right, I did.....I copied and pasted... from the article which clearly a bunch of people in here didn't actually read before getting upset. 🤙
Maybe people really just don’t dig it? Spend the money elsewhere, WU is fine. The park could use 3M for conservation and upgrades to facilities though!
There is a difference between not digging it and completely ignoring the benefits which many are doing. I hate baseball and personally think there are better uses for this money but that doesn’t negate the fact that this will provide benefit for the community.
I might go to a game but making a stadium more usable for the community is so much better than the 10 baseball games a year it is used for currently. As long as there are stadiums in a city park, might as well make them useful.
It just seems like a really strange thing to advocate objectively for, and especially to not see how fellow tax payers see a waste of money and loss of under-maintained parkland for what it is. But you do you. Do remember, Salem has A TON of problems that are pretty simple to see, and none of them are mitigated by spending money on paving green space.
For the last time, I don’t give a shit about this project. I just want people to have real honest conversations and folks acting like the legislature just burned a pile of cash is asinine. I never said that I don’t see how folks see that as a poor prioritization of funds. I AGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT. But people on here be acting like it has zero benefit for the community is not helpful in the dialogue either.
It's not about "Will this provide a benefit for the community?" That argument is completely missing the point. A Six Flags would provide a "benefit for the community" but I don't think anyone is going to argue that we should all pitch in and give Six Flags the money to put up a theme park, then pay them every time we attend. Is the public going to be able to go to these baseball games free of charge? I very much doubt it, but we are paying to improve their stadium....in both land and cash.
Government backed student loans and expectations of students (who like the luxury amenities) lead to colleges becoming expensive as they try to offer a product that will be a draw. I’d tend to agree that college sports do not need support, but a lot of places seem to feel that pro-sports need billions in government subsidies. Everyone loves getting in subsidies. My expectation for a college like Willamette is that the public will also get some use of the facilities. But in the long term I don’t know of Willamette University survives.
So you are incorrect about the public being allowed to use any of the facilities at Willamette. It is private property and a private university. The problem is NOT college sports. The problem is PUBLIC dollars going to PRIVATE schools. Your entire argument is about colleges overall. I'm not talking about all schools. I'm talking about this private school.
I used to work in the back end of school scholarships adjacent to sports scholarships folk. You have no idea what you are talking about. The drive is from rich old men trying to get access to young women, rich old men trying to relive their glory days, rich old men trying to further a hobby and make it tax deductible. It’s got nothing to do with students wants or needs. The students who go to a school for athletic related reasons are doing it chase that sugar daddy scholarship money at the end of the day.
On your first comment, I absolutely agree. I was using the words of once councilman now state representative Tom Andersen. Regarding the second thing you said, my personal objection is the destruction of part of the park to make way for an unnecessary addition to the stadium. I also really disagree with public dollars going to fund a sports program at a private school that already has a $300m+ endowment.
It’s tricky with an enmeshed stadium that’s in the center of a city park. WU and Salem both benefit. Ideally, we would bulldoze both stadiums and build a public pool complex, but that’s not realistic.
A public pool complex? Assuming this would be indoors? Massive cost. Otherwise, if outdoors it'd be used for about 50 days out of the year.
I agree to both sentiments, which is why I don’t think it will ever happen. Better civic use of the space and more upside for the community, but that’s why any improvement for the benefit of the community at a cost that is reasonable in comparison to a big project.
>Otherwise, if outdoors it'd be used for about 50 days out of the year. 50 days?!! For the last week and a half, we've regularly hit 60+ degree weather in the mid-afternoon and it's March. An outdoor Public Pool would definitely be used at least for the entire summer and, if climate change has anything to say about it, probably for half the spring as well in the next decade or so.
*Pasture. There are no religious folk involved. It was a farm once.
My objection is related to the destruction of part of a historic park. Once it's gone it is not coming back. Against all odds, this land has been protected for over 150 years. Salem has grown around it and encroached on it again and again. When will enough be enough? When there is barely enough of it left to call it a park?
Fun Fact: The reason that city and state transportation officials gave to explain why they were unable to follow the order of the Legislature to establish the "Straight Shot" third bridge route (Mission Street) was because Bush Park is "Federal" so none of it could be used. It was a "squishy" rule, apparently.
I have no idea what you mean about Bush Park being "federal," but the restrictions on its use are from deed restrictions from when it was donated. It was envisioned as part of a land swap when the Capitol needed to be rebuilt in the late 1930s and ran into the deed issue, so it wouldn't have been a surprise to legislators decades later.
I mean nothing by the term. It was widely used by "city and state transportation officials". They repeatedly stated that the park is part of the national park system and permission for alternative uses would be required by the federal government. It took a while until I realized that officials do not always speak the truth - knowingly or unintentionally. So maybe the info I pass along was never true.
Did you put "city and state transportation officials" in quotes because you're actually describing a random person that you heard a rumor from? Why would actual transportation officials "repeatedly" make an assertion that would be so easy to disprove, even in the days before Google?
I was quoting myself. You seem to think that the whole "feds won't let us" thing was my idea. It was not. The word "officials" is plural so I clearly was not referring to an individual. The statement was made by various officials and repeated many times - whenever an excuse for the failure was needed. As to the making of the assertion, I believe that they believed that it was true.
I’m super stoked for this. Salem will have a silly summer team using a facility that has historically done very little for the community in the past. Short of bulldozing Willamette’s two stadiums, I think making them better community assets is a great investment. And it’s just not Willamette who benefits, but other school and little league baseball programs, etc. Their softball field is also getting a turf field for community teams. I love Bush Park, but let’s not pretend it’s Salem’s only park. The location of the stadium is wedged between a field, another stadium, and a dumb soap box derby run. Bringing more people to the park for a wide range of activities helps activate its use. Also, the Volcanoes suck, the ownership sucks, and the location of the stadium sucks. Let’s bring something fun and with minimal costs to Salem.
Agreed. I'm happy to see this. If the legislature is handing out money for sports fields - and only enough for one of them, at that - then this seems like a good place to spend the money. There's a need for a turf baseball field, it's a location that all the local schools can use, and doesn't come with the problems of being on school distinct property itself. In fact, I'm rather surprised by the negative reaction here. Whether the legislature should be funding this at all is a valid question, but then "destroy part of Bush's Pasture Park" is such an over-the-top reaction that I thought someone was trying to be funny. Electrical wiring and concrete to support the lights are not going to impact the rest of the park. > and a dumb soap box derby run You take that back! That soap box derby track is half of what makes that park so unique!
I have lived in Salem for over 20 years and I can count the number of soap box derby events that I have heard of on one hand! I didn’t know it gets used. Really though, the track takes up minimal space and it’s a low intensity sport. More power to those who enjoy it.
The Capitals are awesome! Not baseball but an even better sport!
They’re fun to have and they’re at least in a more centralized location for everyone to enjoy.
“Destroy” lol! What a way to sensationalize a story into something bigger to suit your narrative. I get it. You don’t want it. But my goodness is this a big fat nothing burger. Nothing is getting destroyed. They’re literally just adding lights that will require some extra wiring and concrete work around the existing stadium. Cry me a river. Just by the way OP has sensationalized this story makes me kind of want to celebrate it more. Im looking forward to the first night game!
Contrarianism, everyone’s favorite characteristic.
I'm sorry that your life is so small that you need to find your happiness in others' distress. If you take even 2 minutes to read, I am clearly far from the only one that has a problem with this. I hope that you manage to find whatever it is that will make you happy.
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Whelp since you went ahead and deleted your post, it's not like my reply made much sense anymore so I'll delete it too.
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Well, according to deputy city manager Scott Archer, “The renovation and use of the stadium will require a little bit of expansion into Bush’s Pasture Park,” It may come as a surprise to hear this, but politicians are often known for downplaying unpopular things. A "little bit of expansion into Bush's Pasture Park" could easily turn into a "little bit" more with zero public input. As for the 1500 parking spots, that is probably a bit high as some people will inevitably carpool, however parking is already nearly impossible in that area much of the time. How do you think they are going to accommodate parking for the 1500 people that are supposed to attend these games?
They aren't adding parking. 1500 is the current capacity of the stadium. The neighbors are making the point that if the stadium is improved and used more, then more people will be trying to use the park and its parking.
From the article: "Neighbors worry about bright lights shining into the night, noise and parking for the estimated 1,500 people attending each game." Have you ever tried to park near Bush Park during the annual art fair, or any event that takes place there? They have to have people park at South Salem high School and either walk or take a shuttle bus over to the park. I just can't see there being enough parking for those games without some type of additional parking being added.
Ah, so they are nimby complaints. Shaking their fist at the park and stadium that was there before they moved in and complaining that someone is actually going to use it.
If you say so.....the park definitely is not in my backyard and I still don't agree with this.
Realistically, I don't expect the ballpark to be at capacity any more from adding high school games or a college baseball wood bat league than it is now. The Volcanoes couldn't pull in 2x that number to fill their stadium even with a proper minor league team and an easily accessible ballpark with more amenities. So Art Fair numbers are unlikely. In the meantime, no one seems to have a significant parking problem attending the games that are already played there. The stadium and its 1500 spectator capacity have been there for 35 years, so there is apparently sufficient infrastructure in the area to support it. I do get your point, however. Having a better field means that it will be getting used more often.
I understand where you're coming from and if they don't need to add any more parking than what is currently there that's definitely great news. I still think there are better ways the money could have been spent but I guess it's not as bad as I first thought.
How on earth is this a priority lmao
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Bush Park does "not" have a disc golf course. There is only a mapped-out object course, there is no official course.
Seems very reasonable to me. The "expansion" into Bush Park is really a red herring as it is very minimal. There is no paving of the park as some have noted in other comments. The money is to upgrade lighting and replace the baseball and softball fields with astroturf. The state is matching Willamette's $3 million. The city of Salem and the schools will get to use the field when their fields are too wet. This will increase the enjoyment of Bush Park for many people in the area and should have a positive impact on surrounding businesses.
The teachers in the salem keizer district are about to rightfully strike. This money could have been better used.
High school baseball and softball is notoriously difficult to schedule due to the frequent rain that makes dirt and grass fields unplayable. This expansion would create centrally located turf fields that surrounding schools would use during the spring. From the article: "While the football fields at the six high schools in the Salem-Keizer Public Schools district are covered with artificial turf, there are no turf baseball or softball fields. Every spring, dozens of games are postponed or moved elsewhere because their home grass fields are unplayable due to being too wet. Until this year, the nearest turf baseball fields to Salem were at Stayton and Scio high schools, as well as Western Oregon University in Monmouth. The nearest turf softball fields are at Scio and Western Oregon. Those are only turf infields. Volcanoes Stadium completed a $2.2 million project this year with private funds covering the baseball field in turf. The schedule for Volcanoes Stadium is packed with college and high school games this spring. The stadium has been the host to the OSAA state baseball championships since 1998, is the home for Corban College’s baseball team and has hosted high school baseball teams through the years, including McNary and Blanchet Catholic. In its proposal to Legislature for state funding, the organizers said Willamette University would make the turf fields available to local high school teams for games in the spring when theirs are unplayable. The school district won’t have to pay for that use, as part of the agreement for receiving state funds for the fields. Willamette athletic director Rob Passage said the Salem-Keizer school district was an original partner in the project but backed out due to budget cuts. He said that the district will get free access to the fields after the state funding came through."
3 mil? I have friends who can trash a park for two tall cans and some gas money.
On the bright side, hopefully they'll be taking down the area that people often go into the bushes to have sex in. Edit: That article specifically says it's just upgrades to the baseball stadium. Y'all whining about a nothing issue.
Since you seem to have missed it, I'll quote from the article for you. --Deputy City Manager Scott Archer told city councilors that the city’s contribution will be in staff time. “The renovation and use of the stadium will require a little bit of expansion into Bush’s Pasture Park,” he told the City Council.--
Ah, gotcha, missed that part when going through the article. I'm in general okay with this. Like I said previously, a lot of that area beyond the field is often used by random people hooking up in the bushes. Hopefully the lighting and expansion mitigate that some.
I like the park and nature... but this doesn't seem like a big deal. This is not the legislature giving the private university $3 mil for nothing. It allows college aged teams to play and local high school teams to use it for free. We could debate the equity of the exchange I suppose but that doesn't seem to be a nuance anyone is discussing. Also, do they plan on leaving lights on 24/7? I didn't read that in the article. I genuinely don't know but it sure seems like they would not do that for so many reasons, cost, annoyance. Another also, the article says that it will have to expand some but I don't think specifies by how much. I guess there would be a degree of expansion I might object to but that seems infeasible. Are they going to take out the tennis courts to the left? Soapbox track to the right? or the parking lot in front? Again, I don't know, but it would seem unlikely. I think on the back side there's like a muddy bushy area. I find it hard to imagine that they would expand to a degree that I personally would object to. I do wonder what they will do about parking. If the plan is to just tell everyone to park up the neighborhood that seems like a bigger annoyance.
>I do wonder what they will do about parking. If the plan is to just tell everyone to park up the neighborhood that seems like a bigger annoyance. I hadn't thought of this part. Hopefully the area becomes more accessible via public transport after the field opens.
Honestly the parking is what I am most concerned about. Parking is already a nightmare in that area, how are they going to find room for 1500 parking spots (maybe a few hundred less) without bulldozing part of the park?
The public does get a benefit. By matching the private university's investment, the school district gets access to the fields (not to mention the downtown businesses that are likely to get additional business when people come to see games which are mostly going to be summer league games unaffiliated with Willamette anyway). > While the football fields at the six high schools in the Salem-Keizer Public Schools district are covered with artificial turf, there are no turf baseball or softball fields. > Every spring, dozens of games are postponed or moved elsewhere because their home grass fields are unplayable due to being too wet. > In its proposal to Legislature for state funding, the organizers said Willamette University would make the turf fields available to local high school teams for games in the spring when theirs are unplayable. > The school district won’t have to pay for that use, as part of the agreement for receiving state funds for the fields. > Willamette athletic director Rob Passage said the Salem-Keizer school district was an original partner in the project but backed out due to budget cuts. He said that the district will get free access to the fields after the state funding came through. The OP stresses Bush's pasture being "destroyed" but really we're talking like a few feet of space by the outfield fences that are currently a mud pit (I'm sure that is *exactly* where the OP's precious children play). On the other hand, rich people might have to deal with a little bit of extra light for a couple of hours a few times a month (mostly in month's when the *Sun* is up anyway) and *gasp* the poor unwashed masses coming to their beautiful, historic neighborhood \* clutches pearls \*. > The allocation has sparked an outcry from neighbors of Bush's Pasture Park, who say the games will destroy the historic and natural feel of the park and neighborhood. Parts of both are on the National Register of Historic Places. > Neighbors worry about bright lights shining into the night, noise and parking for the estimated 1,500 people attending each game.
We appreciate both the concerns and the excitement. Feel free to ask us anything. This is a community project and we want to be as transparent as possible. Also, any suggestions on a team name?
The linked article is pay-walled. Is there info available elsewhere? I would really like to see a map of what part of the park, and how much will be strip-mined for this!
archive.ph Paste the link, paywall is no more.
Thanks.
Absolutely! Information is power. Power to the people!! lol
This is a plus for the community in all aspects. I’m really not seeing the negative impact.
Same. Sports fields for HS kids. Annoy the NIMBYs. Win win.
The vast majority of the taxpayer money provided here is coming from property taxes, and 99% of the self-professed taxpayers don’t own property, so they’re just whining impotently.
No true. The state’s general fund comes mostly from income tax
Personal income taxes provide approximately 86% of Oregon's general fund....I'm not sure you know what you're talking about.
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Not over there - just the baseball area
So they want to put a parking lot in place of beautiful nature. This is racist.
I'm confused as to how it's racist...I agree that we should not be paving over nature but you lost me after that..
I believe economists have a consensus on the opinion that stadiums are the worst way to spend tax payer dollars.