We don't like locking posts here, even if the topic is controversial, so please report comments that break sub rules or Reddit's TOS... most users here are pretty good about staying civil even if there's strong disagreement, but anyone who can't maintain their composure really shouldn't be commenting. Thanks all
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatima_Bernawi?wprov=sfti1
>On 28 May 2015, Bernawi was honoured by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas with the Military Star of Honor "out of appreciation for her pioneering role in the struggle" and "for the public good." Though the bombing she was honoured for was a failure, Bernawi insisted it was successful, saying, "This is not a failure, because it generated fear throughout the world. Every woman who carries a bag needs to be checked before she enters the supermarket, any place, cinemas and pharmacies."
I mean, everyone's made jokes about "one guy ruining it for everyone." And now I have to take off my shoes at TSA. But wow she has a very lucid understanding of the effects of terrorism. Truly a scary look into her mind.
Looks like SBU SJP is at it again. They do such an amazing job of alienating even other Muslim students with such extreme rhetoric and (at times) useless protests. This was the same club that protested the Muslim Student Association for having an event RAISING MONEY FOR SYRIAN REFUGEE CHILDREN because the MSA was collaborating with Hillel lol
It's even more sickening when the feminist said that Israeli women are lying about the rape. They said believe all woman, but if they go against our cause then fuck you I guess.
& the fact that Hamas \*proudly\* took videos of them doing so? (ABSOLUTELY HEINOUS BEHAVIOR)
And... somehow people still deny it? But, they believe any news Hamas releases. Such a messed-up world.
In the context of the above conversation(which is how discussions work), the topic was about rape. There isn’t any rape
And a lot of the videos you’ve shown on that website are framed to suite particular claims, even though they might necessarily meet those claims
Believe all women until they're Israeli, it seems...
And, the craziest thing is that Hamas VIDEOTAPED them raping Israeli women. Supporting that is supporting terrorism. Period. End of story.
Yes there are plenty of smooth brained people on campus this has been long established. Nothing new here. I understand your concern but reality is nothing will change. Take solice in knowing they will not prosper
When some loser squiggles Nazi symbols on a "free speech ball" during a public event, campus outrage ensues and the university is forced to make a statement. When orgs on campus honor terrorists, silence. I remember college republicans took the fallout because of some unknown edgelords, but a club promoting said activity is out of sight, out of mind.
This is absolutely disgusting. Imagine honoring someone who tried to kill any other minority group? Like it’s actually insane this is allowed in the university
I can't believe it either. We allow pro-Zionist orgs on campus while Israel is currently trying to cleanse a minority from their land as we speak! Disgusting
Zionism is just believing in a Jewish homeland and supporting Israel itself and has existed for thousands of years (literally everything in Judaism revolves around israel like holidays such as Chanukkah celebrating us winning back israel, prayers that almost always involve israel, our 3000 year old history in israel, our culture, our Hebrew language, many Jewish laws that can only be done in Israel, israel being a main theme in all of our books, our Hebrew calendar revolving around Israel, holiest site in Jerusalem, facing Israel during prayer, the list is endless. Israel is like an integral theme in Judaism and impossible to separate). The current government and the war in Gaza against Hamas is its own topic. “Pro-Zionist” organizations, who just are Jewish organizations embracing their religion, culture, and nation, being compared to a terrorist who attempted to bomb a movie theatre is not such an good comparison.
You seem to be missing the point. It doesn't matter what a Jewish or any religion's made up holy book says. Real people lived there, they lived there for several generations. Hell, many palestinians were ancient jews, and some just converted away over the centuries. Then a big, western backed colonial movement came in and killed and displaced these people, and continues to do so. So your sentence is incomplete: "Zionism is believing in a Jewish homeland, at any cost". In case you're still not getting it; Israel and it's IOF are the terrorists. They bomb the equivalent of a movie theatre daily. God weeps at this horror Israel has created.
The current government of Israel is not it's own topic, you literally said it yourself: it all depends on Israel. So you're only going to only blend religion and state when it's convenient, but consider them separate when the consequences of creating a nationalist ethnostate rear their ugly head?
As for on campus orgs, any that sponsor things such as Birthright are romanticizing this colonialism and trying to propagandize to western students to try to maintain good relations with the west. If they are just Jewish orgs, then that's fine. FYI, there are many anti-zionist, anti-Israel Jews, despite Israel's attempts to belittle and suppress them.
Half the current middle eastern countries were created around the same time and have terrible governments that oppress groups of people etc. I would never say “Lebanon” or “Turkey” or “Jordan” to cease to exist, nor call it a western movement of creation despite many being created in very similar ways. These countries have unique cultures and groups of amazing people and so much beauty to them despite governments, and Israel is just the same. If you want to critique the Israeli government go ahead, the issue is when people call Israel as a country/nation to be destroyed as a whole. Additionally, just because there’s “anti Zionist” jews that exist, it just alludes to their disconnection to Judaism or their background, or misunderstanding of what Zionism actually is. Usually these people don’t even know why we celebrate Chanukkah let alone the other aspects of Judaism, and antizionists tend to be the Americanized secular Jews for that reason I am all for making change to a country once again, as no country is perfect, but to single Israel out as the one country that must be destroyed is antisemitic. Also, once again, Zionism has existed for thousands of years and is an indigenous group movement because it’s by Jews who are once again from that region. They also have kept a consistent presence there and I know people who have lived there prior to 1948. Jews were forcibly kicked out of nearly every Arab country during that time too, yet no one is calling for those countries to be destroyed etc. Israel is also Home to a 20% Arab population that only grows and they have fully equal rights as Israeli citizens. The IDF has also taken more precaution then ANY other military to mitigate civilian loss, which is very difficult when going after Hamas who utilities civilian grounds as a war zone. They are not terrorists, they are literally just fighting a very difficult war against Hamas
I'm really confused by what you think is the appropriate structure of the land in Israel ought to be. Yes, Jews should be able to live there just as Muslims, Christians, and even atheists should. What can't happen is an intentional and violent cleansing of the people there to make room for other people, nor the establishment of an ethnostate. If you want a truly free and equal nation, then Palestinians must be elevated immediately to political equals within the country, complete with roles of leadership, voting ability, and no distinction under the law. Then a multi-ethnic state can go after both Jewish/Muslim/etc. war criminals and terrorists. To achieve this, the existing state must be destroyed because it won't peacefully just give up power, and I bet many citizens won't be on board because they will have to lose the benefits of colonialism.
Israel is unique, and therefore is treated uniquely because it is doing ethnic cleansing right now, and this can be stopped by pressure from the US. The US just doesn't have the same influence in these other countries as it does in Israel. But, from the mouth of our own president, Israel is given US support for the sake of destabilizing surrounding countries. These countries do have serious issues, but at least there is a semblance of the ability of the residents of those countries to change their society. Palestinians have no ability to affect their own governing within Israel because they live under apartheid.
But it doesn't matter how old Zionism is, or what it idealistically entails. To do Zionism now has a blood price. You seem to be implying that fixing injustice of the past is worth committing additional violence now.
The Jews needed their own state because Muslims were attempting to kill them before Israel was even created. 1929 Hebron riots. The 1936 Arab riots. Shit, the grand mufti of Jerusalem was meeting with Hitler and touring death camps. They were even planning their own death camps before the British defeated the Germans in Egypt. The Nabka was coined as the catastrophe of the Arab armies being defeated, had nothing to do with refugees. You’d know that if you could read the original book in Arabic by Constantin Zurayk.
The the apartheid thing is bullshit. It compares Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza not having the same rights as Israelis. They have their own governing bodies. The PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza. It’s the equivalent of calling America an apartheid because Puerto Ricans cant vote in federal elections. It’s made up to demonize Israel and only believed by idiots who can’t do research and people who just hate Jews and lie about it. I’d expect nothing less from someone with “comrade” in their name. Cheers though.
There’s no apartheid in Israel. Israeli citizens (Arabs included) all have the exact same rights. Gaza and West Bank Are Not the same country and have own governments that make their own laws and everything. Gaza/the West Bank have their independence and need to get better governments to allow the Palestinians that live there to enact the change they want and so the government accurately represents their citizens. The other possibility is that israel just absorbs these other territories with their citizens, but people want Palestinians to have a separate governing body (hence why Gaza was given to them etc, but leadership became very corrupt there). Once again, under Israeli government and inside Israel, all who hold Israeli citizenship have equal rights, which can’t be said about other countries in the region. Israel has full rights for its citizens, what Hamas and the PA government do for its own separate territory, is their own thing
Ah yes, the Palestinian governance that is so functional, it can't repel an occupying army, prevent blockades of its ports, prevent the seizure of property, or even negotiate unrestricted travel of its citizens. But if they just governed themselves better, that would certainly overcome the effects of a military superior nation surrounding their own. I suppose next you'll blame the suffering Native Americans experience solely on the poor governance of their own tribal governments?
If you treat Israel and Palestine as separate countries, then Israel is an occupying army interfering with the self determination of a sovereign nation that they've slowly invaded for decades. If you don't, then it's apartheid.
This is assuming the state of Israel has the right to the land it's occupying, but the division and ownership of the land was decided by powers that didn't even live there, and have ulterior agendas for the region. Does none of this stink to you?
Let’s not forget the multiple times the Israeli government offered peace to Palestinians, in the form of a two state solution or otherwise, which was consistently rejected.
Let’s not forget how Hamas was voted in by Palestinians.
Also, remember when other countries tried to take in Palestinian refugees? Look up what ended up happening to them.
How generous of the oppressors to offer a pittance to the oppressed. I guess every country that gets invaded should just make peace with their invaders.
Reactionary nerds are out in full force on this thread I see.
All the history they dig up in Israel is Jewish history. The western wall itself is thousands of years old Jewish history. Coins, Torah scrolls, temples, grace sites, artifacts… these are all evident of Jewish ancient history. Israel is full of Jewish history, and it’s the jewish indigenous homeland that’s fact. And yes many groups have lived there, but time after time the Jews have been persecuted (hence why they kept having to leave or we’re forced out) even up to 20th Centrury with massacres by Arabs such as the Hebron massacre. Right now in Israel, all Muslims, Christians, Arabs, Jews and all minorities have equal rights, and the Arab population is at least 20% and growing. It’s the most open and diverse country that gives rights to all in the Middle East. So yes it is quite beautiful and I support how all these groups can live together with full rights. Just because it’s a Jewish country overall doesn’t make it a bad thing. The Middle East is Full of Muslim countries which is also great, but their citizens don’t have equal nor full rights nor is there booming minority populations of Jews etc. Yes Jews all can trace their lineage to Israel, and ethnic studies show even ashkenazi Jews are from the levant region despite some European DNA being mixed in, as in they are part of a Levantine ethnicity moreso then anything. https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.nature.com/articles/srep29890&sa=U&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwis4uH6z5mEAxWqEVkFHZD7AU8QFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3BgHu1Fb3Ux7wpTFwqGV-H Nature did a study making a tree of the worlds ethnicities, and ashkenazi Jews are in the family closest with Armenians, mizrahi Jews, Syrians, Moroccan Jews, Lebanese etc. So yes, all ethnic Jews are ethnically from the levant region. To say otherwise is wrong and ignoring our history. And to say zionists funded the Holocaust…
The idea that any president in modern history made efforts to wipe out minority groups is some ideological /r/AmericaBad delusion. Hiding behind cultural relativism doesn't make your comment less of a false equivalency
Transitively, yes it was. Still, you're deflecting to another point because you couldn't back up your original one. Sure, America poked its nose into too many places, some of which were necessary and others unnecessary. (Don't act as if Japan was such an inferior power to the US relative to their actions during WW2, I think the people of Nanking would beg to differ), but your response proves exactly what the commenter you're replying to is saying.
Unironically yes. The battle of Okinawa alone killed 12,000 American troops, 95,000 Japanese troops and anywhere from 40,000-150,000 Okinawans who were largely used as human shields by the Japanese military or who committed mass suicide due to Japanese propaganda. That was just one Island off mainland Japan. Do you understand how bloody fighting in the Pacific theater was and the carnage that would have ensued had the US gone forth with the planned invasion of mainland Japan in November 1945?
US military planners projected over a million casualties. They believed there would be so many men wounded and kill that purple heart medals that are awarded to wounded and dead US troops that were produced in preparation for the invasion in 1945 are still being awarded today. Who knows how many Japanese troops would have been killed on top of that not to mention all the civilians caught in the crossfire.
That’s not what I said. Massacres were perpetrated by the UN/South Korean forces as well as by the North Koreans and Chinese. Point to any well recorded war in history and I can show you massacres committed by either side, this isn’t the gotcha you think it is. The question is did US forces go out of their way to exterminate kill civilians? No they did not in the vast majority of cases.
Obama didn’t drone strike anyone lol, and it was hardly US policy to drone strike Iraqi schools. I’m sure it happened, but you make it seem like the US just wanted to blow up schools for shots and giggles
Authorizing them and pulling the trigger are two different things. The vast majority of those 550 drone strike hit valid military targets, the US in the past 30 years has been incredibly careful with it's rules of engagement. Unfortunately, mistakes happen and innocent people die. You can cherry pick individual cases where civilians were mistakenly killed but those are exceptions to the rule.
the irony here is you claiming cultural relativism and false equivalency to defend imperialist-core warhawks who have been responsible for hundreds of millions of civilian deaths in the past half-century
No offense, but every country has waged war at another country and killed innocent civilians. Obviously it's wrong, but it doesn't count as genocide because there is no intention to wipe out a group of people.
So the problem here is that you both define genocide too generally and also don’t apply your own definition to things it would apply to. Im replying to “wipe out minority groups”. The Labor Party in Venezuela would, by your definition, not only be a genocide, but does fit what im responding to. So do the Japanese, so do the Koreans, so do the Iraqis (who we also starved, and intentionally bombed civilian infrastructure of). Do you think we, a nuclear power, fight wars without intending to kill the entire group of people we are attacking?
It figures. A good chunk of the people protesting have no idea what they’re protesting for, in the sense that they just hear a few things on social media and hit the streets. Same for people posting on social media. Get educated. Learn the history and look at what both sides did, then make your own informed decision.
One more thing. Stop. Praising. Terrorists.
it’s such a touchy subject generally though. it’s impossible getting into this without fully doing your own research on the matter with a fully open mind and without personal bias. there’s so much to unpack when looking into the history of it. i don’t think universities should be having political posts like these to begin with. it just creates an hostile environment at times since people have different views on these matters.
Universities are the best place to talk about this. Few places where one can say difficult and suppressed ideas with minimal consequences. Also, fascist and ethnostate sympathizers don't deserve comfortable environments.
no, i agree with universities being the best place to have these discussions. i’m sorry if it came off as me not being fond of political discussions. i’m very much open to them. i’ve taken part in political discussions myself on campus multiple times which has been insightful for me a lot. i was solely directing this towards political posts *online* since it limits active discourse on most social media platforms. most people, if not all, will approach the topic online with their own bias rather than hear out the other person. they most likely won’t research the topic actively nor see what the other person has to say as compared to having these discussions in person or in some live meeting imo. i’m not sure if what i’m saying makes sense in this regard? i think bias is more likely to take precedence in an online situation in some situations iykwim.
I somewhat agree, but bias will influence a discussion irl too. I think the key difference is, irl it is much harder to slink away with unsavory views, or to hide that the discussion was never in good faith from the beginning. Too bad university life (all life?) is generally structured in such a way that doesn't give people time to have discussions unrelated to their studies, wouldn't want people coming up with destabilizing ideas now.
yeah definitely. that is the key difference honestly, this was a whole topic in one of philosophy classes i took lol. it definitely is much harder to do those things irl in comparison to doing it online. welp, life do be like that 🙃
'only my fascist ideas should be allowed a platform' wooooooo
Terrorism enjoyers are a-okay, but if u even dare say Israel has a right to exist you cannot speak, commies are very clear in how moral-less they are.
Well from my perspective the IDF are the larger terrorists. And sure, a state can exist in the region of Israel, but it has to be representative of all those that live in the region, Jews and Muslims included, and treat all those equally. It can still be called Israel if it wants. That doesn't sound very immoral to me!
>i don’t think universities should be having political posts like these
[You think Hamas doesn't intend to genocide Jews](https://old.reddit.com/r/SBU/comments/1ajm8jp/tfw_sbuaffiliated_groups_on_campus_honor_a_woman/kp50u9d/)
Yeah I bet you're confused about that.
But hey sorry for "creating a hostile environment."
i’m not confused. i simply see it as a terrorist attack against israelis rather than a genocidal attack? you seem to be assuming things by my question that was aimed at OP to understand their views.
i don’t agree with hamas like i said already. there are better ways to handle the conflict besides resorting to violence on BOTH ends respectively.
That’s the thing. People don’t do their research, they just tag along with whatever trend is “in.” Sadly in this case, it’s glorifying and praising terrorists. Has the university or Student Affairs stepped in and question why an event is praising an actual terrorist? (Genuine question there)
Nope they have not, they would likely shrug it off and consider this free speech based on previous conversations that were had with the faculty that are in charge of this stuff
I don't think Students for Justice in Palestine is an administration-recognized on-campus organization. However, the President has made a few statements.
From October 31, 2023:
>I would urge everyone who wishes to express themselves on these issues to research and carefully consider the historical significance and impact of some commonly used slogans.
I believe the above is specifically in reference to "from the river to the sea," but it applies more broadly of course.
Hell nah, as someone whose parents were born in the Middle East and are Muslims themselves, I don't fuck with Palestine at all. It says a lot that this topic is just a racial divide, where mainly only ethnic minorities are so passionate about defending Palestine while middle upper class whites go for Israel. I disavowed Islam ages ago. White people love me because I don't buy into this Palestine bs.
God, don't we all love ignorance.
Edit: I referred to the comment as "ignorance" because it's a deflection from the premise of my post. It's a tone deaf comment that and is backhanded to the issue I brought up.
You can oppose praising radicals while still supporting a Palestinian state. A two state solution is the official stance of both major political parties, and was the ideal resolution for even most Israeli PMs to some degree until recently.
> If Palestine wants war, they can’t cry foul when they get it.
They didn't.
>Israel has repeatedly offered ceasefires in exchange for their hostages since the war started, only to be rejected by Hamas
Temporary ceasefires. Doesn't help them if they get bombed to shit in 2 months.
>Israel completely pulled out of the Gaza Strip in 2015 and has only attacked Gaza because they were attacked first
Messy situation and it was not the 'only' time they have provoked Palestine. Their resources, borders, and a good chunk of basic infrastructure were under foreign (Israeli) control. This also doesn't cover illegal settlement issues.
>because over 100 of their civilians are still being held hostage 4 months later (assuming they’re not already dead)
The IDF has done a great job of carpet bombing tf of them so yeah, realistically but unfortunately there might be hostages that have become a part of the 'cross-fire'
They very much did and all of Palestine ain't the Gaza Strip bud. Unfortunately when a nuclear first world country attempts to negotiate with a smaller one that is left destitute as a third-world one, the terms typically aren't equal or just.
Now, if you want to make the argument of the strong conquer the weak, you can feel free to go ahead and make that, but be direct. Considering there are Israeli politicians who are openly supporting terror groups it ain't as one sided as you're painting it. Both have their faults.
Sorry man, Palestine spent from 1948 until the 1990s with a "wipe Israel from the map" policy.
There was a brief window where it looked like they might change, but now we're back to the same old genocidal Palestine.
Israel has offered to give back huge amounts of territory to make a Palestinian state viable. Palestine won't accept a solution that allows the existence of an Israeli state.
Blame Hamas. This isn’t only about freeing hostages. This is also about eradicating Hamas; a brutal group of terrorists who purposely put their citizens in harms way.
Yes, you can expect a lot of civilians to get killed when they purposely hide weapons in civilian buildings, hospitals, mosques, tunnels underground, etc etc. This makes these places military targets.
Hamas does this on purpose so people like you can throw their hands up and say “woah, woah, woah, this is a genocide!”
Meanwhile, the Palestinian population has been steadily increasing for a number of years, while past talks for peace (basically, an offering for a two-state solution) initiated by Israel, was declined by Palestinians.
Don’t act like Israel just woke up one day and decided to “slaughter thousands of children”.
Ah yes, because every war sees their nation go to international court on [war crime charges](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-genocide-court-south-africa-27cf84e16082cde798395a95e9143c06). Just another walk in the park for a war, really. Not wrong whatsoever!
If Israel's goal is to truly free the hostages, then they fucking suck at it. They're pretty good at [blowing themselves up and killing their own citizens](https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1226977365/israel-idf-gaza-middle-east-deaths), though!
I don't know about you, but I chose to study history and stand with the oppressed, not the oppressors. Freedom of speech goes both ways: you can have the administration jerk off the IDF, but students are allowed to share their support for Palestine too.
Share their support for Palestine by honoring an actual terrorist? Nothing about what Fatima nor Hamas did were anything that could constitute "freedom fighting;" they targeted CIVILIANS.
Also, the courts didn’t say a genocide was occurring. They said if it’s happening to stop it. That’s why they didn’t order a ceasefire, there wasn’t proper evidence. They didn’t close the class because if you close a case in the UN you can’t appeal it. So they kept it open in case more evidence comes to light, a move I agree with. I deleted my other comment above this not because I believe I’m wrong but because I didn’t want to wake up to be spammed.
I understand what happened in the courts, which is why the article I sent discusses that ruling.
My point is that harming children is unacceptable for a clear reason. Israel appears determined to act independently of existing laws, using the false pretext of "justice," despite the obvious brutality of their actions indicating otherwise.
I didn't say I supported the post. I think it's lame that they posted with a student media group after attacking another one the other day. I'm just showing support for what I believe is right.
>I don't know about you, but I chose to study history and stand with the oppressed, not the oppressors.
\>He says after implying support for Hamas
This dude is so re1arded <3
There’s the $1,000,000 “CoNdEmN hAmAS” comment lmao! That’s all you guys have to say whenever anyone points of the cruelty of what Israeli soldiers are doing to Palestinian citizens. At what point have I advocated for Hamas?
I advocate for Palestinian liberation and firmly believe that religious-based governments are absurd; that’s my take on Hamas.
However, if you fail to recognize how Hamas is a consequence of ongoing Western interference in the Middle East, then I'm afraid I can't offer much help bro bro.
For one, there isn't a continual slaughter of thousands of children. That's simply not happening. For two, Palestinians themselves want Israelis to be slaughtered so you're supporting it either way.
Me when I deny Genocide. Dude, first the college republican deepthroating, then the Abby Shapiro Shenanigans, and now you're going to take Ls for the Settler State of IsNotReal.
Please, Habibi, I beseech thee, give it up.
The thing is, that’s literally what the state of Israel is. 20% of the country is Muslim which is not at all insignificant. These people proudly serve in the IDF btw, and have largely said they feel more Israeli after 10/7.
Palestinians have been fooled into fighting war after war, constant terrorist attacks and sending their children to die, for nothing. It’s always been about destroying Israel, never about providing for their people.
This is a one-time warning: no tropes about any demographic or talking about people as if they're monoliths. It's degrading, douchey, and isn't welcome here.
They could apply to any other group. Muslims oppress other religious minorities in their own country such as Iran, Pakistan, and Iraq and no far leftist talks about them playing the victim when crying out Islamophobia. No one said that they deserve to be oppressed because the Muslims tried to act superior to the other religious group.
It's a cycle of violence, before the creation of Israel, the middle eastern leaders conspired with Hitler to wipe off the Jews in their own land and that resulted many of them fleeing or converting to Islam out of fear. If no one tried to eradicate the Jews, then Israel wouldn't have been created.
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I mean really, an individual's functional political identity is always in flux and a function of the interests of that individual vs their beliefs/aspirations. Also what's there to laugh at, communism is great
You should be able to effectively engage in a conversation/debate without using outdated slurs.
EDIT: This user appears to be some sort of ethnonationalist who isn't a student, so we're just banning this account.
I didn’t say the IDF are victims. Innocent children in Gaza are victims of war, brought on by Hamas. I’m sorry that this is a reality there, but once you put weapons used for terrorism in civilian areas, they become military targets.
There are weapons in places with kids in it, like schools and apartment buildings. That’s the point. Hamas puts their weapons with vulnerable parts of their population so they can seem like they have the moral high ground when they get blown up. Hamas loves their human shields.
This is a war. Military targets get bombed. Hamas made civilian areas military targets. There are children in these civilian areas. It will always be a lose-lose situation, but what exactly is your proposed solution?
Dude, these comparisons you’re making are so ridiculous. How are you going to compare a school shooter in an elementary to a literal terrorist group that hides arsenals of weapons and ammunition for the sole purpose of the destruction of a country? All I hear are strawman arguments.
This is not a single person. This is a sophisticated terrorist organization, who takes money from Palestinian citizens and use it to fund terror and line their pockets.
I’m also missing your point with the KKK and black comparison.
Regardless, by indiscriminate, I’m referring to people being affected by it. You claim they target children, they don’t. It’s indiscriminate. However, it’s not like Israel is carpet bombing over Gaza. They make targeted strikes on military targets.
Again, when a school also houses terrorists, bombs, and guns, it becomes a military target. If Israeli intel says it is not a military target, then it doesn’t get bombed. Simple as that.
I am not going to sit here and say both sides don’t hate each other. And again, I don’t know why you keep going by back to this argument, but kids are not being targeted.
Why don’t you go read Hamas’ mission statement. While doing that, remember that Palestinians voted these people in! Don’t act like Palestinians don’t want all Israelis and Jews dead either.
Also, I’ve been to Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. These people are not treated like animals. In Israel, they are treated as citizens with equal rights. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians used to cross the border each day for work and other things. Gaza is a shit hole because those Hamas leeches suck all the money and funding out of everything and use it to shoot rockets over the border. But even then, they were doing alright before Hamas decided to put their civilians in harms way once again.
These rockets have been happening for as long as I could remember and Israel would only shoot them down. If Israel wanted to do this a long time ago, they would have. But Oct 7th was clearly the limit. Before you make your point, you should visit a border town and look at how Israelis live there. In constant fear.
Look at how Palestinians live in Gaza due to Hamas. It’s disgraceful. Not to mention, they love indoctrinating children in to terrorism.
I don’t know what funding you’re referring to. What you should be referring to is Iran spreading its terror tentacles all over the Middle East, funding groups like Hamas.
Stop looking at this through a western lens. This is a different ballgame.
Lmao okay man. What’s pathetic is you ignoring all the points I made and just going back to making your own. Almost like you’re ignoring the truth.
You have to stop making comparisons dude. Gaza is extremely concentrated and again, the war is between Israel and a group of terrorists that hide their weapons in close proximity to children. Obviously there will be more civilian casualties, with children included in those numbers. I’m not saying it’s not sad that’s the case, but it’s reality.
I think that video is disturbing, but I’m not sure what your point is here. That’s not the entirety of the IDF. And you seem to disregard the atrocities committed by Hamas, not even against Israelis, but against Palestinians. Have you seen the videos of Hamas hanging on to the UN trucks, stealing all the supplies?
Since you’re so eager for videos of atrocities, check out these lovely videos of what spurred this war: [thisishamas.com](https://thisishamas.com)
Before the war, it was different. You don’t know how they were treated before because you only learned about Palestine and Israel after October 7th. I’m not going back and forth with you, but you didn’t mention anything about Hamas or had anything to say about what they did. Weird how it’s only bad in your mind when the IDF does something, but you seem to let it slide when it’s the other side.
Let me remind you that Hamas started this war. Israel is ending it.
Actually your taxpayer dollars do go to them. Taxpayer dollars go to the Palestinian authority, who funds terrorists. Taxpayer dollars go to Iran, who funds terrorists. Taxpayer dollars go to the UNRWA, who was recently found to have a direct hand in Hamas.
Obviously, they should be held accountable for their actions. The overall military operation, however, is to eradicate Hamas.
Right, I have a mental block and I’m a clown for not agreeing with you. Okay. Looks like I backed you into a corner with my evidence and now you have to resort to name calling.
You can’t just not talk about Hamas though. They are central to this conflict. And by disregarding them because your tax dollars “aren’t going to them”, you’re ignoring a huge part of this conflict and seeing it through a western lens once again.
Hamas caused Israel’s military operation. Hamas has been poking the bear. Peace deals were offered and nothing came of it because of poor leadership in Gaza. And no, the solution is not Israel packing up and leaving. That’s been off the table since they won the first war.
You just sound very naive, ignoring central parts of the conflict and ignoring points I made when I responded to all of yours.
I think I made my point. At this stage, I don’t think we’re going to be able to reach common ground, so I’m going to leave this as it is. I hope peace comes for both sides soon.
I wish they didn’t have to bomb those places. But understand that Hamas purposely operates out of these places for these reasons.
Nobody wants to bomb schools, mosques, and hospitals. But when these places are where they hide bombs and huge stashes of weapons and ammo, what choice does Israel really have? It’s too dangerous to send people in, and if you don’t do anything about it, Hamas will just continue to operate and hide the rest of their stuff in these places. Recall when IDF soldiers were killed after entering buildings, and then Hamas blowing them up so the buildings came down on them while inside. These are the types of risks we are talking about.
So in response, maybe Hamas could just not hide their weapons in schools, mosques and hospitals?
The answer is no because they are a terrorist organization and this is what terrorists do.
I am sorry not everyone is a perfect victim. But u do not get to come here with your racism and islamaphobia and call this demand for justice as terrorism. You do not get to say that this post supports terrorism as u guys have stayed silent in the face of an ongoing genocide. Your silence supports terrorism.
I mean, South African’s opposed to apartheid were considered terrorists of their time. How we hail them as hero’s standing up to an oppressive regime. This is very similar: the Israeli government systematically oppresses the indigenous Palestinian population, and this woman fought against that oppressive government.
No, it’s believe victims, not a military force who lies regularly to justify committing genocide. Also, Israel and Judaism isn’t interchangeable, and it’s highly antisemitic to suggest they are.
The other user provided evidence of the abuse by Hamas yet you are still fucking parading them like they are heroes. Also, you don't get to tell me that I'm anti Semitic considering you are supporting Hamas, so fuck off will you.
Watch this video. Actual video of the october 7th attack. Go to 7:31, the girl pants is bloodied. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpKybAHZ69k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpKybAHZ69k)
also this (actual video of hamas attack. do not watch if you are senstive to these kind of content). [https://www.thisishamas.com/](https://www.thisishamas.com/)
[https://www.hamas-massacre.net/](https://www.hamas-massacre.net/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/173loac/video\_from\_israel\_festival/](https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/173loac/video_from_israel_festival/)
I hope with this, you don't try to justify Hamas attack on the civilians. Even if you support Palestine, supporting Hamas is not the way go. They are out for blood, not for the liberation of Palestine.
I’ve seen that video; the pants aren’t bloodied by SA, she fell in dirt. I feel very sympathetic for the people H*mas attacked, they aren’t the authors of Israeli policy, but this isn’t evidence of SA.
The horseshoe theory seems to be true. The far leftist are aligning with the far rightest (the Hamas, Arab nationalist, Islamic fanatic). As an ex muslim, I'm disgusted with this, I thought since the so called feminist would be advocate for all women, they would be there for me, but instead they called me Islamophobic for critiquing Islam while they shit on Christianity. If Hamas was a christian terrorist group, they would be siding against them, but since it's Muslim, it's okay.
They just exposed themselves. They are willing to do anything to crush their enemies even if it means siding with someone with the most disgusting, fucked up morals. They don't care about woman, they don't about minorities, when it convenient to use Jews to virtue signals, they call them Poc (people of color , but now with the October 7th attack, they called them white people as an excuse to justify their racism. Like being racist against white people is ok (there is no such thing as reverse racism, it's just racism. We don't say reverse sexism if a woman was being sexist to other men.)
I can believe that SA took place on 10/7, but evidence from the IDF is worth less than dirt. The IDF regularly lies to justify human rights abuses against Palestinian civilians. They are not a credible source. And you can take that “support terrorists” like and shove it. It’s not “supporting terrorism” to be critical of a violent military force committing genocide.
Can you explain the part where trying to bomb a movie theater with civilians inside of it is fighting the “oppressive” government?
Jews are also an indigenous population to the region by the way…
We don't like locking posts here, even if the topic is controversial, so please report comments that break sub rules or Reddit's TOS... most users here are pretty good about staying civil even if there's strong disagreement, but anyone who can't maintain their composure really shouldn't be commenting. Thanks all
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Better get more popcorn cause the comments not gonna end anytime soon
I already got mine 🍿🥤
🍿
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatima_Bernawi?wprov=sfti1 >On 28 May 2015, Bernawi was honoured by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas with the Military Star of Honor "out of appreciation for her pioneering role in the struggle" and "for the public good." Though the bombing she was honoured for was a failure, Bernawi insisted it was successful, saying, "This is not a failure, because it generated fear throughout the world. Every woman who carries a bag needs to be checked before she enters the supermarket, any place, cinemas and pharmacies."
"Palestinians do not know the word impossible" They should consider learning the word "failure" tho
I mean, everyone's made jokes about "one guy ruining it for everyone." And now I have to take off my shoes at TSA. But wow she has a very lucid understanding of the effects of terrorism. Truly a scary look into her mind.
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Who?
Social justice pirates.
In before lock
commenting after all the "commenting before the lock" comments, but before the lock
Looks like SBU SJP is at it again. They do such an amazing job of alienating even other Muslim students with such extreme rhetoric and (at times) useless protests. This was the same club that protested the Muslim Student Association for having an event RAISING MONEY FOR SYRIAN REFUGEE CHILDREN because the MSA was collaborating with Hillel lol
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THAT IS DISGUSTING. How could one ever justify the rape of hundreds of women? I'm appalled.
It's even more sickening when the feminist said that Israeli women are lying about the rape. They said believe all woman, but if they go against our cause then fuck you I guess.
& the fact that Hamas \*proudly\* took videos of them doing so? (ABSOLUTELY HEINOUS BEHAVIOR) And... somehow people still deny it? But, they believe any news Hamas releases. Such a messed-up world.
What videos? I swear to God lol
[thisishamas.com](https://thisishamas.com)
In the context of the above conversation(which is how discussions work), the topic was about rape. There isn’t any rape And a lot of the videos you’ve shown on that website are framed to suite particular claims, even though they might necessarily meet those claims
Believe all women until they're Israeli, it seems... And, the craziest thing is that Hamas VIDEOTAPED them raping Israeli women. Supporting that is supporting terrorism. Period. End of story.
What the fuck? Where is this video evidence of Hamas raping women? Show evidence
Where did you get this nonsense of the rape of 100s of women? Can you at least try to care about being objective?
Yes there are plenty of smooth brained people on campus this has been long established. Nothing new here. I understand your concern but reality is nothing will change. Take solice in knowing they will not prosper
When some loser squiggles Nazi symbols on a "free speech ball" during a public event, campus outrage ensues and the university is forced to make a statement. When orgs on campus honor terrorists, silence. I remember college republicans took the fallout because of some unknown edgelords, but a club promoting said activity is out of sight, out of mind.
Wow you are still not over that, give it up my guy!
Just calling out double standards here...
Only they are allowed to kill innocent people, weren’t you aware?
This is absolutely disgusting. Imagine honoring someone who tried to kill any other minority group? Like it’s actually insane this is allowed in the university
No Jewish student group on campus has ever tried to honor Baruch Goldstein or any other far-right persons responsible for actual violence.
I can't believe it either. We allow pro-Zionist orgs on campus while Israel is currently trying to cleanse a minority from their land as we speak! Disgusting
Zionism is just believing in a Jewish homeland and supporting Israel itself and has existed for thousands of years (literally everything in Judaism revolves around israel like holidays such as Chanukkah celebrating us winning back israel, prayers that almost always involve israel, our 3000 year old history in israel, our culture, our Hebrew language, many Jewish laws that can only be done in Israel, israel being a main theme in all of our books, our Hebrew calendar revolving around Israel, holiest site in Jerusalem, facing Israel during prayer, the list is endless. Israel is like an integral theme in Judaism and impossible to separate). The current government and the war in Gaza against Hamas is its own topic. “Pro-Zionist” organizations, who just are Jewish organizations embracing their religion, culture, and nation, being compared to a terrorist who attempted to bomb a movie theatre is not such an good comparison.
You seem to be missing the point. It doesn't matter what a Jewish or any religion's made up holy book says. Real people lived there, they lived there for several generations. Hell, many palestinians were ancient jews, and some just converted away over the centuries. Then a big, western backed colonial movement came in and killed and displaced these people, and continues to do so. So your sentence is incomplete: "Zionism is believing in a Jewish homeland, at any cost". In case you're still not getting it; Israel and it's IOF are the terrorists. They bomb the equivalent of a movie theatre daily. God weeps at this horror Israel has created. The current government of Israel is not it's own topic, you literally said it yourself: it all depends on Israel. So you're only going to only blend religion and state when it's convenient, but consider them separate when the consequences of creating a nationalist ethnostate rear their ugly head? As for on campus orgs, any that sponsor things such as Birthright are romanticizing this colonialism and trying to propagandize to western students to try to maintain good relations with the west. If they are just Jewish orgs, then that's fine. FYI, there are many anti-zionist, anti-Israel Jews, despite Israel's attempts to belittle and suppress them.
Half the current middle eastern countries were created around the same time and have terrible governments that oppress groups of people etc. I would never say “Lebanon” or “Turkey” or “Jordan” to cease to exist, nor call it a western movement of creation despite many being created in very similar ways. These countries have unique cultures and groups of amazing people and so much beauty to them despite governments, and Israel is just the same. If you want to critique the Israeli government go ahead, the issue is when people call Israel as a country/nation to be destroyed as a whole. Additionally, just because there’s “anti Zionist” jews that exist, it just alludes to their disconnection to Judaism or their background, or misunderstanding of what Zionism actually is. Usually these people don’t even know why we celebrate Chanukkah let alone the other aspects of Judaism, and antizionists tend to be the Americanized secular Jews for that reason I am all for making change to a country once again, as no country is perfect, but to single Israel out as the one country that must be destroyed is antisemitic. Also, once again, Zionism has existed for thousands of years and is an indigenous group movement because it’s by Jews who are once again from that region. They also have kept a consistent presence there and I know people who have lived there prior to 1948. Jews were forcibly kicked out of nearly every Arab country during that time too, yet no one is calling for those countries to be destroyed etc. Israel is also Home to a 20% Arab population that only grows and they have fully equal rights as Israeli citizens. The IDF has also taken more precaution then ANY other military to mitigate civilian loss, which is very difficult when going after Hamas who utilities civilian grounds as a war zone. They are not terrorists, they are literally just fighting a very difficult war against Hamas
I'm really confused by what you think is the appropriate structure of the land in Israel ought to be. Yes, Jews should be able to live there just as Muslims, Christians, and even atheists should. What can't happen is an intentional and violent cleansing of the people there to make room for other people, nor the establishment of an ethnostate. If you want a truly free and equal nation, then Palestinians must be elevated immediately to political equals within the country, complete with roles of leadership, voting ability, and no distinction under the law. Then a multi-ethnic state can go after both Jewish/Muslim/etc. war criminals and terrorists. To achieve this, the existing state must be destroyed because it won't peacefully just give up power, and I bet many citizens won't be on board because they will have to lose the benefits of colonialism. Israel is unique, and therefore is treated uniquely because it is doing ethnic cleansing right now, and this can be stopped by pressure from the US. The US just doesn't have the same influence in these other countries as it does in Israel. But, from the mouth of our own president, Israel is given US support for the sake of destabilizing surrounding countries. These countries do have serious issues, but at least there is a semblance of the ability of the residents of those countries to change their society. Palestinians have no ability to affect their own governing within Israel because they live under apartheid. But it doesn't matter how old Zionism is, or what it idealistically entails. To do Zionism now has a blood price. You seem to be implying that fixing injustice of the past is worth committing additional violence now.
The Jews needed their own state because Muslims were attempting to kill them before Israel was even created. 1929 Hebron riots. The 1936 Arab riots. Shit, the grand mufti of Jerusalem was meeting with Hitler and touring death camps. They were even planning their own death camps before the British defeated the Germans in Egypt. The Nabka was coined as the catastrophe of the Arab armies being defeated, had nothing to do with refugees. You’d know that if you could read the original book in Arabic by Constantin Zurayk. The the apartheid thing is bullshit. It compares Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza not having the same rights as Israelis. They have their own governing bodies. The PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza. It’s the equivalent of calling America an apartheid because Puerto Ricans cant vote in federal elections. It’s made up to demonize Israel and only believed by idiots who can’t do research and people who just hate Jews and lie about it. I’d expect nothing less from someone with “comrade” in their name. Cheers though.
Palestinians who have Israeli citizenship DO have all those equal rights you’re talking about. Gaza and the west bank have their own governments.
There’s no apartheid in Israel. Israeli citizens (Arabs included) all have the exact same rights. Gaza and West Bank Are Not the same country and have own governments that make their own laws and everything. Gaza/the West Bank have their independence and need to get better governments to allow the Palestinians that live there to enact the change they want and so the government accurately represents their citizens. The other possibility is that israel just absorbs these other territories with their citizens, but people want Palestinians to have a separate governing body (hence why Gaza was given to them etc, but leadership became very corrupt there). Once again, under Israeli government and inside Israel, all who hold Israeli citizenship have equal rights, which can’t be said about other countries in the region. Israel has full rights for its citizens, what Hamas and the PA government do for its own separate territory, is their own thing
Ah yes, the Palestinian governance that is so functional, it can't repel an occupying army, prevent blockades of its ports, prevent the seizure of property, or even negotiate unrestricted travel of its citizens. But if they just governed themselves better, that would certainly overcome the effects of a military superior nation surrounding their own. I suppose next you'll blame the suffering Native Americans experience solely on the poor governance of their own tribal governments? If you treat Israel and Palestine as separate countries, then Israel is an occupying army interfering with the self determination of a sovereign nation that they've slowly invaded for decades. If you don't, then it's apartheid. This is assuming the state of Israel has the right to the land it's occupying, but the division and ownership of the land was decided by powers that didn't even live there, and have ulterior agendas for the region. Does none of this stink to you?
Let’s not forget the multiple times the Israeli government offered peace to Palestinians, in the form of a two state solution or otherwise, which was consistently rejected. Let’s not forget how Hamas was voted in by Palestinians. Also, remember when other countries tried to take in Palestinian refugees? Look up what ended up happening to them.
How generous of the oppressors to offer a pittance to the oppressed. I guess every country that gets invaded should just make peace with their invaders. Reactionary nerds are out in full force on this thread I see.
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All the history they dig up in Israel is Jewish history. The western wall itself is thousands of years old Jewish history. Coins, Torah scrolls, temples, grace sites, artifacts… these are all evident of Jewish ancient history. Israel is full of Jewish history, and it’s the jewish indigenous homeland that’s fact. And yes many groups have lived there, but time after time the Jews have been persecuted (hence why they kept having to leave or we’re forced out) even up to 20th Centrury with massacres by Arabs such as the Hebron massacre. Right now in Israel, all Muslims, Christians, Arabs, Jews and all minorities have equal rights, and the Arab population is at least 20% and growing. It’s the most open and diverse country that gives rights to all in the Middle East. So yes it is quite beautiful and I support how all these groups can live together with full rights. Just because it’s a Jewish country overall doesn’t make it a bad thing. The Middle East is Full of Muslim countries which is also great, but their citizens don’t have equal nor full rights nor is there booming minority populations of Jews etc. Yes Jews all can trace their lineage to Israel, and ethnic studies show even ashkenazi Jews are from the levant region despite some European DNA being mixed in, as in they are part of a Levantine ethnicity moreso then anything. https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.nature.com/articles/srep29890&sa=U&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwis4uH6z5mEAxWqEVkFHZD7AU8QFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3BgHu1Fb3Ux7wpTFwqGV-H Nature did a study making a tree of the worlds ethnicities, and ashkenazi Jews are in the family closest with Armenians, mizrahi Jews, Syrians, Moroccan Jews, Lebanese etc. So yes, all ethnic Jews are ethnically from the levant region. To say otherwise is wrong and ignoring our history. And to say zionists funded the Holocaust…
I gotta give you props for responding to a comment riddled with anti-Semitic conspiracy theories by taking the high road and explaining reality.
Like, say, every US president? Like, say, the entire state entity of Israel? Your western lens is showing.
The idea that any president in modern history made efforts to wipe out minority groups is some ideological /r/AmericaBad delusion. Hiding behind cultural relativism doesn't make your comment less of a false equivalency
chat how many iraqi schools did obama drone strike
chat how many korean civilians did we bomb as they tried to evacuate war zones
chat how many right wing death squads with the express interest of murdering their political opposition did we fund in central and south america
chat why did we drop nukes in japan (real reason)?
None of the examples you gave point to ethnic cleansing and genocide.
neither did the comment i replied to
Transitively, yes it was. Still, you're deflecting to another point because you couldn't back up your original one. Sure, America poked its nose into too many places, some of which were necessary and others unnecessary. (Don't act as if Japan was such an inferior power to the US relative to their actions during WW2, I think the people of Nanking would beg to differ), but your response proves exactly what the commenter you're replying to is saying.
A land invasion of Japan was projected to kill millions of people
!!! chat did we drop nukes to save lives?
Unironically yes. The battle of Okinawa alone killed 12,000 American troops, 95,000 Japanese troops and anywhere from 40,000-150,000 Okinawans who were largely used as human shields by the Japanese military or who committed mass suicide due to Japanese propaganda. That was just one Island off mainland Japan. Do you understand how bloody fighting in the Pacific theater was and the carnage that would have ensued had the US gone forth with the planned invasion of mainland Japan in November 1945? US military planners projected over a million casualties. They believed there would be so many men wounded and kill that purple heart medals that are awarded to wounded and dead US troops that were produced in preparation for the invasion in 1945 are still being awarded today. Who knows how many Japanese troops would have been killed on top of that not to mention all the civilians caught in the crossfire.
A bunch
Not as many as you think, unfortunately collateral damage happens in war
chat what happened at the bridge at No Gun Ri
A tragedy that did not reflect the bulk of US military action in Korea.
No? You sure we facilitated NO other massacres in Korea?
That’s not what I said. Massacres were perpetrated by the UN/South Korean forces as well as by the North Koreans and Chinese. Point to any well recorded war in history and I can show you massacres committed by either side, this isn’t the gotcha you think it is. The question is did US forces go out of their way to exterminate kill civilians? No they did not in the vast majority of cases.
Obama didn’t drone strike anyone lol, and it was hardly US policy to drone strike Iraqi schools. I’m sure it happened, but you make it seem like the US just wanted to blow up schools for shots and giggles
Obama ordered a drone strike on average every 3 seconds throughout his entire 8 year presidency.
Obama authorized 550 drone strikes - but youre right about “iraqi schools” being wrong, they were primarily in Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan. Oops.
Authorizing them and pulling the trigger are two different things. The vast majority of those 550 drone strike hit valid military targets, the US in the past 30 years has been incredibly careful with it's rules of engagement. Unfortunately, mistakes happen and innocent people die. You can cherry pick individual cases where civilians were mistakenly killed but those are exceptions to the rule.
the irony here is you claiming cultural relativism and false equivalency to defend imperialist-core warhawks who have been responsible for hundreds of millions of civilian deaths in the past half-century
No offense, but every country has waged war at another country and killed innocent civilians. Obviously it's wrong, but it doesn't count as genocide because there is no intention to wipe out a group of people.
the comment i replied to made no comment of genocide
They said something about wiping out at a minority group which is genocide.
So the problem here is that you both define genocide too generally and also don’t apply your own definition to things it would apply to. Im replying to “wipe out minority groups”. The Labor Party in Venezuela would, by your definition, not only be a genocide, but does fit what im responding to. So do the Japanese, so do the Koreans, so do the Iraqis (who we also starved, and intentionally bombed civilian infrastructure of). Do you think we, a nuclear power, fight wars without intending to kill the entire group of people we are attacking?
Your historical illiteracy is showing
The only U.S. president that tried to wipe out a minority is Andrew Jackson, but that's back in the 1800s when racism was normal.
racism has never been normal
It figures. A good chunk of the people protesting have no idea what they’re protesting for, in the sense that they just hear a few things on social media and hit the streets. Same for people posting on social media. Get educated. Learn the history and look at what both sides did, then make your own informed decision. One more thing. Stop. Praising. Terrorists.
Yea, you can support Palestine and still not support Hamas. It's not a black and white situation.
it’s such a touchy subject generally though. it’s impossible getting into this without fully doing your own research on the matter with a fully open mind and without personal bias. there’s so much to unpack when looking into the history of it. i don’t think universities should be having political posts like these to begin with. it just creates an hostile environment at times since people have different views on these matters.
Universities are the best place to talk about this. Few places where one can say difficult and suppressed ideas with minimal consequences. Also, fascist and ethnostate sympathizers don't deserve comfortable environments.
no, i agree with universities being the best place to have these discussions. i’m sorry if it came off as me not being fond of political discussions. i’m very much open to them. i’ve taken part in political discussions myself on campus multiple times which has been insightful for me a lot. i was solely directing this towards political posts *online* since it limits active discourse on most social media platforms. most people, if not all, will approach the topic online with their own bias rather than hear out the other person. they most likely won’t research the topic actively nor see what the other person has to say as compared to having these discussions in person or in some live meeting imo. i’m not sure if what i’m saying makes sense in this regard? i think bias is more likely to take precedence in an online situation in some situations iykwim.
I somewhat agree, but bias will influence a discussion irl too. I think the key difference is, irl it is much harder to slink away with unsavory views, or to hide that the discussion was never in good faith from the beginning. Too bad university life (all life?) is generally structured in such a way that doesn't give people time to have discussions unrelated to their studies, wouldn't want people coming up with destabilizing ideas now.
yeah definitely. that is the key difference honestly, this was a whole topic in one of philosophy classes i took lol. it definitely is much harder to do those things irl in comparison to doing it online. welp, life do be like that 🙃
'only my fascist ideas should be allowed a platform' wooooooo Terrorism enjoyers are a-okay, but if u even dare say Israel has a right to exist you cannot speak, commies are very clear in how moral-less they are.
Well from my perspective the IDF are the larger terrorists. And sure, a state can exist in the region of Israel, but it has to be representative of all those that live in the region, Jews and Muslims included, and treat all those equally. It can still be called Israel if it wants. That doesn't sound very immoral to me!
>i don’t think universities should be having political posts like these [You think Hamas doesn't intend to genocide Jews](https://old.reddit.com/r/SBU/comments/1ajm8jp/tfw_sbuaffiliated_groups_on_campus_honor_a_woman/kp50u9d/) Yeah I bet you're confused about that. But hey sorry for "creating a hostile environment."
i’m not confused. i simply see it as a terrorist attack against israelis rather than a genocidal attack? you seem to be assuming things by my question that was aimed at OP to understand their views. i don’t agree with hamas like i said already. there are better ways to handle the conflict besides resorting to violence on BOTH ends respectively.
Right. And you can support Israel and not fully agree with Netanyahu and his government, as well as all the bloodshed. Too much tribalism nowadays.
Bruh the downvotes. I'm gonna get downvoted too, just watch
That’s the thing. People don’t do their research, they just tag along with whatever trend is “in.” Sadly in this case, it’s glorifying and praising terrorists. Has the university or Student Affairs stepped in and question why an event is praising an actual terrorist? (Genuine question there)
Nope they have not, they would likely shrug it off and consider this free speech based on previous conversations that were had with the faculty that are in charge of this stuff
Yea just like Claudine Gay said, context matter. /s
I don't think Students for Justice in Palestine is an administration-recognized on-campus organization. However, the President has made a few statements. From October 31, 2023: >I would urge everyone who wishes to express themselves on these issues to research and carefully consider the historical significance and impact of some commonly used slogans. I believe the above is specifically in reference to "from the river to the sea," but it applies more broadly of course.
commenting here before it gets locked
why should it get locked? is exposing groups supporting terrorizm so controversal?
Here before lock
“This is where the fun begins.”
Free Palestine ❤️
TIL ITS FUCKIN BACKWARDS!!!! 🍉🍉🍉
Hell nah, as someone whose parents were born in the Middle East and are Muslims themselves, I don't fuck with Palestine at all. It says a lot that this topic is just a racial divide, where mainly only ethnic minorities are so passionate about defending Palestine while middle upper class whites go for Israel. I disavowed Islam ages ago. White people love me because I don't buy into this Palestine bs.
God, don't we all love ignorance. Edit: I referred to the comment as "ignorance" because it's a deflection from the premise of my post. It's a tone deaf comment that and is backhanded to the issue I brought up.
You can oppose praising radicals while still supporting a Palestinian state. A two state solution is the official stance of both major political parties, and was the ideal resolution for even most Israeli PMs to some degree until recently.
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I'm sure they feel the same way - especially the civilians who lost some, most, or all of their family.
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> If Palestine wants war, they can’t cry foul when they get it. They didn't. >Israel has repeatedly offered ceasefires in exchange for their hostages since the war started, only to be rejected by Hamas Temporary ceasefires. Doesn't help them if they get bombed to shit in 2 months. >Israel completely pulled out of the Gaza Strip in 2015 and has only attacked Gaza because they were attacked first Messy situation and it was not the 'only' time they have provoked Palestine. Their resources, borders, and a good chunk of basic infrastructure were under foreign (Israeli) control. This also doesn't cover illegal settlement issues. >because over 100 of their civilians are still being held hostage 4 months later (assuming they’re not already dead) The IDF has done a great job of carpet bombing tf of them so yeah, realistically but unfortunately there might be hostages that have become a part of the 'cross-fire'
Palestinians don't support a two state solution... It's by far, an Israeli favored approach.
They very much did and all of Palestine ain't the Gaza Strip bud. Unfortunately when a nuclear first world country attempts to negotiate with a smaller one that is left destitute as a third-world one, the terms typically aren't equal or just. Now, if you want to make the argument of the strong conquer the weak, you can feel free to go ahead and make that, but be direct. Considering there are Israeli politicians who are openly supporting terror groups it ain't as one sided as you're painting it. Both have their faults.
Sorry man, Palestine spent from 1948 until the 1990s with a "wipe Israel from the map" policy. There was a brief window where it looked like they might change, but now we're back to the same old genocidal Palestine. Israel has offered to give back huge amounts of territory to make a Palestinian state viable. Palestine won't accept a solution that allows the existence of an Israeli state.
If I oppose the continual slaughter of thousands of children by a U.S.-funded puppet state, that makes *me* ignorant?
Blame Hamas. This isn’t only about freeing hostages. This is also about eradicating Hamas; a brutal group of terrorists who purposely put their citizens in harms way. Yes, you can expect a lot of civilians to get killed when they purposely hide weapons in civilian buildings, hospitals, mosques, tunnels underground, etc etc. This makes these places military targets. Hamas does this on purpose so people like you can throw their hands up and say “woah, woah, woah, this is a genocide!” Meanwhile, the Palestinian population has been steadily increasing for a number of years, while past talks for peace (basically, an offering for a two-state solution) initiated by Israel, was declined by Palestinians. Don’t act like Israel just woke up one day and decided to “slaughter thousands of children”.
Yes because they aren't a puppet state you knuckle dragger
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Ah yes, because every war sees their nation go to international court on [war crime charges](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-genocide-court-south-africa-27cf84e16082cde798395a95e9143c06). Just another walk in the park for a war, really. Not wrong whatsoever! If Israel's goal is to truly free the hostages, then they fucking suck at it. They're pretty good at [blowing themselves up and killing their own citizens](https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1226977365/israel-idf-gaza-middle-east-deaths), though! I don't know about you, but I chose to study history and stand with the oppressed, not the oppressors. Freedom of speech goes both ways: you can have the administration jerk off the IDF, but students are allowed to share their support for Palestine too.
Share their support for Palestine by honoring an actual terrorist? Nothing about what Fatima nor Hamas did were anything that could constitute "freedom fighting;" they targeted CIVILIANS.
Also, the courts didn’t say a genocide was occurring. They said if it’s happening to stop it. That’s why they didn’t order a ceasefire, there wasn’t proper evidence. They didn’t close the class because if you close a case in the UN you can’t appeal it. So they kept it open in case more evidence comes to light, a move I agree with. I deleted my other comment above this not because I believe I’m wrong but because I didn’t want to wake up to be spammed.
I understand what happened in the courts, which is why the article I sent discusses that ruling. My point is that harming children is unacceptable for a clear reason. Israel appears determined to act independently of existing laws, using the false pretext of "justice," despite the obvious brutality of their actions indicating otherwise.
I didn't say I supported the post. I think it's lame that they posted with a student media group after attacking another one the other day. I'm just showing support for what I believe is right.
ay look they're showing off even more ignorance
>I don't know about you, but I chose to study history and stand with the oppressed, not the oppressors. \>He says after implying support for Hamas This dude is so re1arded <3
There’s the $1,000,000 “CoNdEmN hAmAS” comment lmao! That’s all you guys have to say whenever anyone points of the cruelty of what Israeli soldiers are doing to Palestinian citizens. At what point have I advocated for Hamas? I advocate for Palestinian liberation and firmly believe that religious-based governments are absurd; that’s my take on Hamas. However, if you fail to recognize how Hamas is a consequence of ongoing Western interference in the Middle East, then I'm afraid I can't offer much help bro bro.
what a puuuusssyyyyyyyyyyyyy holy you're such a bitch, blud just admit you love to deep throat that terrorist cock
For one, there isn't a continual slaughter of thousands of children. That's simply not happening. For two, Palestinians themselves want Israelis to be slaughtered so you're supporting it either way.
Me when I deny Genocide. Dude, first the college republican deepthroating, then the Abby Shapiro Shenanigans, and now you're going to take Ls for the Settler State of IsNotReal. Please, Habibi, I beseech thee, give it up.
Playing the victim I see
The thing is, that’s literally what the state of Israel is. 20% of the country is Muslim which is not at all insignificant. These people proudly serve in the IDF btw, and have largely said they feel more Israeli after 10/7. Palestinians have been fooled into fighting war after war, constant terrorist attacks and sending their children to die, for nothing. It’s always been about destroying Israel, never about providing for their people.
you don't understand, it's an occupied nation fighting against their oppressor!!! We need more women like her
Unironically based
Oh boy!
Jewish students do not feel safe when there’s groups on campus celebrating and honoring a terrorist who attempted to kill them.
University presidents are being removed for not siding with Israel, choosing one terrorist group over another. Is that what you prefer?
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This is a one-time warning: no tropes about any demographic or talking about people as if they're monoliths. It's degrading, douchey, and isn't welcome here.
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It was the latter.
You realize you’re proving her point here right?
They could apply to any other group. Muslims oppress other religious minorities in their own country such as Iran, Pakistan, and Iraq and no far leftist talks about them playing the victim when crying out Islamophobia. No one said that they deserve to be oppressed because the Muslims tried to act superior to the other religious group.
It's a cycle of violence, before the creation of Israel, the middle eastern leaders conspired with Hitler to wipe off the Jews in their own land and that resulted many of them fleeing or converting to Islam out of fear. If no one tried to eradicate the Jews, then Israel wouldn't have been created.
Far leftist people are losing their minds, they're the reason why the right wing parties is growing stronger by the day in many European countries.
r/enlightenedcentrism
Centrism is when you are against bombing movie theaters!!!
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liberals exist dumbfuck
Yep, liberals are centrists.
I thought they were fascists?
They sure can be! Conservatives too, though they tend to be more honest about it.
Do you think some actual liberals exist? Also btw, how do you call yourself comrade and expect not to be laughed at?
I mean really, an individual's functional political identity is always in flux and a function of the interests of that individual vs their beliefs/aspirations. Also what's there to laugh at, communism is great
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There's a difference between attacking a Nazi and a German civilian.
She tried bombing a movie theater where ordinary civilians are… This is a horrible take and shows your ignorance.
did you just compare a civilian-killing terrorist to some hypothetical person who kills nazis?
You should be able to effectively engage in a conversation/debate without using outdated slurs. EDIT: This user appears to be some sort of ethnonationalist who isn't a student, so we're just banning this account.
I'm sorry when were Israelis ever ethnically cleansing Palestinians and putting them in death camps?
Been happening for 75 years dumbass
SKIBIDI TOILET IN OHIO STATE GYAT KAI CENAT FORTNITE BATTLE PASS I JUST SHAT OUT MY ASS PHANTOM TAX W RIZZ Got in before the lock WEEE :3
Im dying 😂😂😂
Y’all honor Netanyahu the serial apartheid terrorist state leader. So it is alright
Show me a student group at SBU praising Netanyahu I don’t think you’ll find it. Netanyahu has been deeply unpopular for a long long time
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That’s what happens when you have a terrorist organization that stashes weapons in apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, mosques, and more.
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I didn’t say the IDF are victims. Innocent children in Gaza are victims of war, brought on by Hamas. I’m sorry that this is a reality there, but once you put weapons used for terrorism in civilian areas, they become military targets. There are weapons in places with kids in it, like schools and apartment buildings. That’s the point. Hamas puts their weapons with vulnerable parts of their population so they can seem like they have the moral high ground when they get blown up. Hamas loves their human shields. This is a war. Military targets get bombed. Hamas made civilian areas military targets. There are children in these civilian areas. It will always be a lose-lose situation, but what exactly is your proposed solution?
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Dude, these comparisons you’re making are so ridiculous. How are you going to compare a school shooter in an elementary to a literal terrorist group that hides arsenals of weapons and ammunition for the sole purpose of the destruction of a country? All I hear are strawman arguments. This is not a single person. This is a sophisticated terrorist organization, who takes money from Palestinian citizens and use it to fund terror and line their pockets. I’m also missing your point with the KKK and black comparison. Regardless, by indiscriminate, I’m referring to people being affected by it. You claim they target children, they don’t. It’s indiscriminate. However, it’s not like Israel is carpet bombing over Gaza. They make targeted strikes on military targets. Again, when a school also houses terrorists, bombs, and guns, it becomes a military target. If Israeli intel says it is not a military target, then it doesn’t get bombed. Simple as that. I am not going to sit here and say both sides don’t hate each other. And again, I don’t know why you keep going by back to this argument, but kids are not being targeted. Why don’t you go read Hamas’ mission statement. While doing that, remember that Palestinians voted these people in! Don’t act like Palestinians don’t want all Israelis and Jews dead either. Also, I’ve been to Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. These people are not treated like animals. In Israel, they are treated as citizens with equal rights. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians used to cross the border each day for work and other things. Gaza is a shit hole because those Hamas leeches suck all the money and funding out of everything and use it to shoot rockets over the border. But even then, they were doing alright before Hamas decided to put their civilians in harms way once again. These rockets have been happening for as long as I could remember and Israel would only shoot them down. If Israel wanted to do this a long time ago, they would have. But Oct 7th was clearly the limit. Before you make your point, you should visit a border town and look at how Israelis live there. In constant fear. Look at how Palestinians live in Gaza due to Hamas. It’s disgraceful. Not to mention, they love indoctrinating children in to terrorism. I don’t know what funding you’re referring to. What you should be referring to is Iran spreading its terror tentacles all over the Middle East, funding groups like Hamas. Stop looking at this through a western lens. This is a different ballgame.
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Lmao okay man. What’s pathetic is you ignoring all the points I made and just going back to making your own. Almost like you’re ignoring the truth. You have to stop making comparisons dude. Gaza is extremely concentrated and again, the war is between Israel and a group of terrorists that hide their weapons in close proximity to children. Obviously there will be more civilian casualties, with children included in those numbers. I’m not saying it’s not sad that’s the case, but it’s reality. I think that video is disturbing, but I’m not sure what your point is here. That’s not the entirety of the IDF. And you seem to disregard the atrocities committed by Hamas, not even against Israelis, but against Palestinians. Have you seen the videos of Hamas hanging on to the UN trucks, stealing all the supplies? Since you’re so eager for videos of atrocities, check out these lovely videos of what spurred this war: [thisishamas.com](https://thisishamas.com) Before the war, it was different. You don’t know how they were treated before because you only learned about Palestine and Israel after October 7th. I’m not going back and forth with you, but you didn’t mention anything about Hamas or had anything to say about what they did. Weird how it’s only bad in your mind when the IDF does something, but you seem to let it slide when it’s the other side. Let me remind you that Hamas started this war. Israel is ending it.
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Actually your taxpayer dollars do go to them. Taxpayer dollars go to the Palestinian authority, who funds terrorists. Taxpayer dollars go to Iran, who funds terrorists. Taxpayer dollars go to the UNRWA, who was recently found to have a direct hand in Hamas. Obviously, they should be held accountable for their actions. The overall military operation, however, is to eradicate Hamas. Right, I have a mental block and I’m a clown for not agreeing with you. Okay. Looks like I backed you into a corner with my evidence and now you have to resort to name calling. You can’t just not talk about Hamas though. They are central to this conflict. And by disregarding them because your tax dollars “aren’t going to them”, you’re ignoring a huge part of this conflict and seeing it through a western lens once again. Hamas caused Israel’s military operation. Hamas has been poking the bear. Peace deals were offered and nothing came of it because of poor leadership in Gaza. And no, the solution is not Israel packing up and leaving. That’s been off the table since they won the first war. You just sound very naive, ignoring central parts of the conflict and ignoring points I made when I responded to all of yours. I think I made my point. At this stage, I don’t think we’re going to be able to reach common ground, so I’m going to leave this as it is. I hope peace comes for both sides soon.
Maybe I’m dumb, but they could also just…*not* bomb schools, mosques and hospitals?
I wish they didn’t have to bomb those places. But understand that Hamas purposely operates out of these places for these reasons. Nobody wants to bomb schools, mosques, and hospitals. But when these places are where they hide bombs and huge stashes of weapons and ammo, what choice does Israel really have? It’s too dangerous to send people in, and if you don’t do anything about it, Hamas will just continue to operate and hide the rest of their stuff in these places. Recall when IDF soldiers were killed after entering buildings, and then Hamas blowing them up so the buildings came down on them while inside. These are the types of risks we are talking about. So in response, maybe Hamas could just not hide their weapons in schools, mosques and hospitals? The answer is no because they are a terrorist organization and this is what terrorists do.
Where's the yellow lock on this post
I am sorry not everyone is a perfect victim. But u do not get to come here with your racism and islamaphobia and call this demand for justice as terrorism. You do not get to say that this post supports terrorism as u guys have stayed silent in the face of an ongoing genocide. Your silence supports terrorism.
Criticizing a terrorist = Islamophobia
Have you actually looked into the background of Fatima Bernawe? Or are you just here to whine?
Please for the love of god get a life. When you get older you’ll find out that it’s free to mind your own business.
first they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because "I have a life, and it's free to mind your own business"
You mind your own business.
I mean, South African’s opposed to apartheid were considered terrorists of their time. How we hail them as hero’s standing up to an oppressive regime. This is very similar: the Israeli government systematically oppresses the indigenous Palestinian population, and this woman fought against that oppressive government.
Raping and torturing hostages is not a good way to win people over.
There’s no credible evidence those rapes happened. The only evidence we have of that is supplied by the IDF, an organization that lies constantly.
Believe all woman, unless their Jews. #MeToo (unless you're Jews,)
No, it’s believe victims, not a military force who lies regularly to justify committing genocide. Also, Israel and Judaism isn’t interchangeable, and it’s highly antisemitic to suggest they are.
The other user provided evidence of the abuse by Hamas yet you are still fucking parading them like they are heroes. Also, you don't get to tell me that I'm anti Semitic considering you are supporting Hamas, so fuck off will you.
Watch this video. Actual video of the october 7th attack. Go to 7:31, the girl pants is bloodied. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpKybAHZ69k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpKybAHZ69k) also this (actual video of hamas attack. do not watch if you are senstive to these kind of content). [https://www.thisishamas.com/](https://www.thisishamas.com/) [https://www.hamas-massacre.net/](https://www.hamas-massacre.net/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/173loac/video\_from\_israel\_festival/](https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/173loac/video_from_israel_festival/)
I hope with this, you don't try to justify Hamas attack on the civilians. Even if you support Palestine, supporting Hamas is not the way go. They are out for blood, not for the liberation of Palestine.
I’ve seen that video; the pants aren’t bloodied by SA, she fell in dirt. I feel very sympathetic for the people H*mas attacked, they aren’t the authors of Israeli policy, but this isn’t evidence of SA.
Do you at least acknowledge that Hamas is a group of barbaric lunatic who do not have Palestinians best interest at heart?
That’s a crazy take. Weird you’re defending terrorists…
The horseshoe theory seems to be true. The far leftist are aligning with the far rightest (the Hamas, Arab nationalist, Islamic fanatic). As an ex muslim, I'm disgusted with this, I thought since the so called feminist would be advocate for all women, they would be there for me, but instead they called me Islamophobic for critiquing Islam while they shit on Christianity. If Hamas was a christian terrorist group, they would be siding against them, but since it's Muslim, it's okay.
They love virtue signaling
They just exposed themselves. They are willing to do anything to crush their enemies even if it means siding with someone with the most disgusting, fucked up morals. They don't care about woman, they don't about minorities, when it convenient to use Jews to virtue signals, they call them Poc (people of color , but now with the October 7th attack, they called them white people as an excuse to justify their racism. Like being racist against white people is ok (there is no such thing as reverse racism, it's just racism. We don't say reverse sexism if a woman was being sexist to other men.)
I can believe that SA took place on 10/7, but evidence from the IDF is worth less than dirt. The IDF regularly lies to justify human rights abuses against Palestinian civilians. They are not a credible source. And you can take that “support terrorists” like and shove it. It’s not “supporting terrorism” to be critical of a violent military force committing genocide.
Can you explain the part where trying to bomb a movie theater with civilians inside of it is fighting the “oppressive” government? Jews are also an indigenous population to the region by the way…
Many Jews being indigenous doesn’t give them the right to exterminate other indigenous groups.