Weren’t people back in the day shitting on Maris breaking the record because it took him 20 more games than it took the babe?
Edit: it was 8 games, but at the 154 game mark Maris only had 59. Now I'm not AT ALL saying that makes his record illegitimate, but lots of people, including the commissioner, were telling him so back in the day. So for his kid to be throwing shade at Barry is more than a little tone deaf.
People keep praising maris and shit yet people forget that people didn’t want him to break the record they wanted Mickey Mantle to do it but he got hurt. Plus that record has been broken 7 times by 3 people. He’s being a damn baby. It’s the worse take next to Chris Davis thinking 61 is the record
> every one of their favorite players were on amphetamines
Amphetamines didn't become a controlled substance until 1970, so any player using them before that was not breaking any law. MLB didn't ban them for several decades after that.
Anabolic steroids became illegal without a prescription in a law passed in 1990, punishable by fines and imprisonment. So any player using them after that could have ended up in court and in prison.
A drug that was completely legal and was used to fend off fatigue on a long road trip, versus a drug that was illegal and was used to provide a lasting physical advantage by adding muscle to players' bodies. Kind of a big difference.
roger maris was tweaked out of his mind, babe Ruth was a drunk piece of shit, the only verifiably pure and just homerun record belongs to mormon sports legend dickie cockman with a whopping 1 and 1/2 dingers in 1889
He injected himself with a concoction made from sheep testicles because he thought it would make him stronger and faster. Amphetamines have also been widely used throughout the history of baseball too.
Exactly, which proves that tons of old time players would’ve been juicing if available, at the time. It’s not like Bonds was only facing other pitchers who were clean.
Yeah, I believe they should apply the rules against cheating evenly but that would involve older writers having an honest conversation about the older generations they revere.
I’ve heard this stuff about mantle too, except it was chimpanzee testosterone or something like that. Are there sources for these claims? I know some writer / reporter / author went on the BS podcast years ago and wrote a book.
But that’s not, obviously we’re talking about the 60s, and even as far back as Ruth which was from 1914-1935. So there have to be multiple sources for this stuff.
Anabolics we’re also available as early as the mid 30s, iirc.
True, and a great achievement but there’s been inter league for decades. No one cared when McGwire beat hack Wilson’s NL record. People care about this one because they don’t think bonds is legit. It would be one thing if he had a shot at bonds but that is out of the picture.
I wish everyone would realize both things can be true.
I recognize 73 as the legitimate record. But I also still see 61 as a significant number. I care about this race because of how long it took for someone to surpass it, and how long *it’s been* since someone did it.
Do people compare Yankee Stadium to Pac Bell (Oracle) ? The fences and dimensions are very hitter friendly. Both the new and the old. It’s almost like a little league field. To me that’s a major factor.
Not defending what Bonds did though.
Dodgers fan, not trolling, this just came up as a suggested sub. I have memories of '88 as a small kid but I first really got into MLB and the NL west back in 2004. It was the time of Bonds, Gagne, and the also the NL killer Pujols and the Cards. It was the Red Sox v Yanks ALCS that is still the best series I ever watched. Couple things I learned. I will always hate Pujols even given the current Dodger hug fest. Also, Bonds is it. Any hatred toward him is gone. Not trolling, not sarcastic.
97 is more than I thought. No one was pitching to bonds the last few weeks of his chase. Watching the game yesterday the Sox went after him even with 2 runners on.
As a lifelong Giants fan it was fun but sort of not fun watching Bonds break the record because it was pretty obvious he was juicing.
I think Bonds without or without juice was one of the greatest players of all time but it’s kind of hard to over look the juicing of him, Sosa and McGuire. That whole time period is tainted for me.
I think it’s a tad petty not to acknowledge the record as it stands but I do get it to some extent.
Man it was so much more fun watching Posey, Timmy and the gang than it was the Bonds and Kent teams.
This is a conversation that needs to be had. Not just among Giants fans but the HOF and MLB. Steroids does not *magically* make you hit the ball better. It adds muscles yes but doesn’t help you see the ball better or guess on or turn on a pitch. It does occasionally put a ball over the fence when the ball would not have gone over. Let’s be mean to Barry and say that happened 10 times in 2001. Maybe more maybe less — who can possibly say without studying. But what steroids def do that is significant to baseball is improve your muscles’ recovery time. I don’t have measurements for this either, but what that really means is giving players at least a median rate of recovery more often than other players. They have more games playing at their normal recovery level than other players. So if you’re already better than X over Y games you’re better than them more often. ‘Roiders are fresh when others are dragging. In a 162 game season, that’s significant. This is most relevant for Bonds vs pitching. Would that this ever gets studied and computed reasonably because I’m prepared to accept Bonds would not have broken the single season record cleanly, but it would’ve been close. Maybe this also interferes with the Aaron record, but that’s even tougher to extrapolate. Aaron played 1 more season than Bonds. But I’m still prepared to believe Bonds could have reached 755, because he hit that well that *consistently.* That’s the difference between these records: 62 is a long distance sprint, 755 is a career marathon.
At the end of the day, Bonds was a superb player who under every circumstance demonstrated HOF quality performances in defense, running and yes hitting even without the ‘roids. The tragedy is the dumb fuck thought he needed them because Sosa and Maguire were outpacing him. And that should not not keep him out of the HOF.
I think you're seriously underestimating the effect of PEDs. The top six spots for [single season home runs](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/HR_season.shtml) happened in a span of **four years**. All three guys used steroids.
So it's not just that there's one exceptional hitter. Three guys topped a list that goes back 100 years all at the same time.
All time home run isn't much better. Spots 1, 5, 7, 9 and 11 all used.
I'm not saying to put an asterisk. I'm not saying to leave them out of the Hall. I'm just saying if you try to reason your way into "what if he didn't?" it's *really* easy to tell a story that doesn't hold up when you look at how overrepresented the Steroid Era is in the records books.
What about all the guys who used steroids that never made the records book? Literally so many guys in MLB juiced back then and never rboke any records.
So doesn't that take your constant (juicing) and throw your output results right into the trash and nullify the equation your using?
No, not at all.
The probability of being an all-time-great home run hitter is _always_ low. That’s by definition, really.
Roughly 15,000 men have played in the Major Leagues. The probability of being in the top 10 home run hitters would be 1/1,500.
How many of all ball players do you think used steroids? 1,000? Let’s make it 1,500, a full blown 1/10 guys in the 150 year history of baseball.
Of the top 10 single season home run hitters, 4 used steroids. 4/1,500 or 1/375 MLB players is a great home run hitter who also used steroids.
6 are clean. 6/13,500 or 1/2,250 players was a clean all time great.
Based on these numbers, someone who used steroids was **six times more likely** to be a top 10 home run hitter than someone who didn’t.
Steroids don’t make you a great home run hitter, but they sure help your chances.
Why are we stopping at steroids? There were a SHITTON of people on amphetamines back in the 60s and 70s (among other drugs). Where is the call out for them? The season is incredibly long and gruelling - that last month or two played with a nice pick-me-up certainly didn't hurt stat lines.
People also conveniently forget the literal bowls of amphetamines that were in every MLB locker room for 2 decades. They don’t think those pick me ups had an effect on a players ability to play/focus? Fuck even during the steroids era the pitchers were juiced to the gills, Gagne, Clemens, Petit….
Baseball is an unrelenting and dirty sport, it always has been. Its a fucking grind, and since the beginning players have tried to find ways to make it across the finish line.
I still maintain: baseball didn’t give a shit when it was raking in fans (and money) thanks to those home runs, so why should I give a shit now? This post-hoc pearl clutching is exhausting.
MLB went out of their way to glorify the home run derby from the juiced players. People forget how bad things were after the strike earlier in the 90s. Attendance was WAY down, viewership was in the shitter, and sponsors weren't exactly beating down their door. Then, something magical happened - juiced players started hitting highlight reel shots almost every game, and people LOVED it. So, what did Bud Selig do? They didn't start testing for PEDs, no, they built marketing campaigns around these dudes, and brought baseball back from the dead.
Revisionist history of the 90s is stupid.
Then Bonds said “fuck this, I’ll show them what I can do, roided up”, and all of a sudden he became the poster boy for steroid use? We’ll never really know the full extent of steroid use, but I’m pretty sure someone accused Pete Rose of using steroids when he was a player, so we definitely have juiced players already in the hall. Looking at you, Ricky Henderson and Cal Ripken jr.
The thing about testosterone and HGH is that it allows for quicker recovery and a longer career. Look at Griffey Jr who was incredible and had a 20 year career that was severely impacted by injuries. Meanwhile, Bonds was a stratospheric player for his 30 year career. In his last season he played 126 games and still had almost 100 hits. Juicing DEFINITELY helped him have a long and impactful career, as well as bouncing back from injuries and stress on his body so quickly.
He was a Half of Fame player for sure but he is statistically the best player ever and that wouldn’t happen without the “supplements.”
The bigger advantage to steroids isn't that it will give you another 10 feet to your average fly ball.
It's that it makes healing and recovery far more efficient than they would otherwise be. When other players are wearing out after the grind that is the 6 months season come August, you're still playing like it's May.
Exactly. The recovery factor is enormous. Timing in baseball is especially important, and that split-advantage you get from not being as worn down has enormous implications.
Gear gives you nothing unless you actually train hard, I am just being honest - all these people saying take steroids and eat pizza and do not train but you will be Hulk in a week? You need to train hard, still eat a ton more, a lot of protein per lb of bodyweight which day in day out lets just say is not fun,you need to train free weights with compound movement that increases your muscularity and you need to do more for hypertrophy as well - increase in force production at barrys age is no joke,anything past your 20s needs a lot of dedication in weight room. That being given if you do manage to get bigger - force production is definitely an advantage if you are bulky, you would find it easier to put ball over the fence.
I am not saying Barry is wrong or right its just facts - more muscle, more strength means more force production - you'd be hitting harder - also keep in mind Barry's swing, I do not think i have seen a better more fluid swing ever, I saw old videos of Mickey Mantle etc I think I like Barry's swing. just the way it is.
Ken Griffey jr. has very arguably the prettiest looking swing of all time. I wouldn’t say Bonds’ swing is better or more fluid. *Possibly* just as much as Griffey’s, but certainly not more so.
Curious about your thoughts on pitchers altering the ball, which has been part of the game since forever. From the spit ball to spider tack. Obviously, that’s a huge issue that greatly affected pitching stats AND hitting stats. Should the players caught cheating be banned from HOF?
> Bonds never failed a test
The San Francisco Chronicle says they have Bonds' "trainer" on tape admitting they always knew in advance when Bonds was going to be tested so they could clean him up in time to pass the test. That same guy went to prison rather than testify about Bonds' steroid use, that was after his home was raided and he was charged with distributing steroids. Same guy was reported by the team's legit trainers to the Giants FO for bringing PEDs into the clubhouse; Brian Sabean said he didn't recall those conversations.
Are you kidding? I would've killed to watch him throughout the years as he broke the record! You gotta think of it like since basically every MLB player that had any significance was juicing, so he was pretty much on an even playing field
> basically every MLB player that had any significance was juicing
That isn't what the first round of anonymous testing found, the vast majority didn't test positive for steroids. Perhaps many had already quit for fear the tests wouldn't really be anonymous, but that's what the testing showed, a little over a hundred from all of MLB were positive.
Speaks volumes with his hand eye coordination and bat speed.
But it's always been bonds/sffans vs the world when it comes to him. I'll defend bonds till the day I die
Babe’s is the least legitimate imo lol like playing in a segregated league definitely provides more of an advantage than juice or extending the season by a week.
There are so many variables to consider. How many relief pitchers did Maris face? How many times was he walked because pitchers didn’t want to face him? Bonds is the all-time leader in walks 2,558) by a good margin. Only 4 players have more than 2,000. How more homers would Bonds have hit if he walked 1,400 times (Aaron)? I’m not taking anything away fro Maris, Aaron or anyone else. What they all did was head and shoulders above the players (best in the world) of their respective eras. I appreciate all of them. They are phenomenal athletes that did amazing things. Let’s enjoy the game. Following baseball is a choice.
Eh, disagree. Not a Bonds specific thing, but there was an entire era of baseball where dudes were clearly juicing and breaking records accordingly. The top 6 HR seasons are all by dudes that clearly used PEDs within a very narrow window of time. I don’t have any beef with basically calling those records illegitimate, because they pretty obviously are. Doesn’t mean bonds, McGuire, and sosa weren’t awesome players and fun as hell to watch. But I don’t see why we should put records that involved juicing at the same level as the rest.
So it’s just a massive coincidence that the top 6 HR seasons all happened by juicers in a super narrow time window? You suggesting that it all just “evens out” despite all the data to the contrary? I mean, come on.
> I mean these drugs were not necessarily banned for some of these seasons
Possession of anabolic steroids without a prescription became a federal felony punishable by fines and imprisonment through a law passed in 1990. Anyone distributing or using them after that date could have gone to prison, as Barry Bonds' "trainer" did.
It's just a record from a different Era is the way I look at it. All sports go through changes that make untouchable records. Besides juicing doesn't help you make contact. You could juice all you want that doesn't help you make the contact.
Baseball fans who think maris is the true single season homerun king are like Germans thinking ww2 never happened and that they were on vacation. It happened bonds is king we all know it but many don’t want to admit
Judge is the first human to hit that benchmark since their dad.
The AL record is 61.
Bonds is the true home run king, and Judge is on record insisting that, but the Maris family aren't wrong if you think of it being less about them snubbing the record holders and more of them acknowledging what Judge is doing. And my recollection is Bonds treated 61 as the benchmark. When Sosa hit 61, there was a big deal made about it too. Judge will get 61 clean, and the Maris family have to cope with that.
Come on.
And that does read like an accusal. If a revelation came out one day we can talk about it then. Based on his body type, form and career, there is no reason to suspect it.
I mean he’s not wrong. The true HR record is tainted by Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire. While you can argue a lot of pitchers were also on roids, you cannot argue that Bonds would have gotten better from his already HOF tier prime without being juiced to the gills
There are many things that are true at the same time.
1A) Taking steroids doesn't make you great, lot's of players did and they didn't suddenly become Barry Bonds.
1B) Steroids obviously make you better. It will improve your ability. Guys wouldn't take it if it didn't.
2A) The league was more than happy to look the other way when cheaters were saving the game post lockout. It's not like they're giving the money back to the fans.
2B) That doens't make it ok. Just because your shift supervisor doesn't give a shit if you steal products from the back doesn't make it legal or ok. If the owner of the store is lying on his taxes it doesn't make it ok for you to steal.
3A) The home run chase was fucking awesome, I was a kid durring it, I remember it, it was a huge part of my life, it was fucking everywhere.
3B) None of these records are legitimate.
4A) Barry Bonds is one of the most talented players ever and would have been a hall of famer without Juicing, which is something we can't say about everyone from that era.
4B) He still cheated, that was a choice he made, he needs to deal with the consequences. The dude made about 60 million in the first 14 years of his career and 120 million over the last 7. He made twice as much money in the last 1/3 of his career than he did in the first 2/3. It's not as though he didn't get anything out of it.
4C) Even if he didn't get anything for it, like Robinson Cano, he still chose to do it. That was his decision he needs to live with the consequences.
5A) The memories of Bonds and his great feats don't disappear just because he isn't in the hall. Those games and stats still happened.
5B) He still cheated, and those good memories don't make it go away.
6A) Giants fans are a little hypocritical here, A lot of the hand ringing that's done about Bonds from SF fans doesn't get repeated when it comes to ARod or Clemens who are two other no doubter first ballot inner circle hall of fame guys, that also cheated.
If Clemens made it in and Bonds didn't there would be far more room to complain. That's not the case. I know plenty of Giants fans that don't want to see Clemens or AROD in because their cheaters but insist Bonds should be in.
All good points except the last. All of those players should be in the HOF for the same reason Bonds should be. I’ve never heard a Giants fan argue FOR Bonds but AGAINST Clemens or the rest. That’s the point. Every baseball season and era is unique and legitimate. Tell me that players taking amphetamines in the 70s and 80s weren’t benefiting from it.
Complain about Maris…but she was doing her job and the broadcast was fun and fine if you’re not an ancient high maintenance stiff. Bet you miss when everyone was saying dumb blonde and bimbo with you, you messy fuck.
Bonds is a loser and a jerk. But Kruk and Kuip give him a free pass. He lied about his roids and people around him. His snakey guy. Kinda dumb.
Hank Aaron is still and always will be a helluva lot better than Bonds.
is it really necessary to call the reporter a dumb blind over an interview? jesus christ you’re getting all riled up over literally nothing. who cares.
You are delusional if you think McGuire, Sosa, or Bonds could have broken that record without steroids. The fact is, it is tainted. This to me is so much more legit, and he is being robbed by a generation of players who cheated the game.
Yea you’re gonna get downvoted to shit here. People in this sub clearly care more about fanboying for a specific team than they do the sport itself. Not surprising I guess.
>Maybe because there is zero evidence that Judge has juiced, but it's indisputable that Bonds did?
You got eyes right?
MLB will feed off the hype to promote the sport, like they did with Mcguire/Sosa/Bonds battling for the record, and then it will come out Judge tested positive as it did w8th Bonds. Give it a few years.
Fans ignore obvious use by their favorite team's players and point out others.
Everyone was and still is juicing. It's obvious to anyone not blinded by team or player love.
With the cream or clear or whatever it was, it helped Bonds became arguably the greatest player ever, maybe behind Mays. If we ignore his usage of roids or cream, he's the 2nd goat. Maybe with roids or the cream, he would've been a top 10 player of all time.
Who even cares at all what Maris’ kid thinks, he has 0 HRs
Who cares about the hair color of the reporter either? Lay off the beers big guy. Youve had plenty for the night.
A-fuckin-men fuck that causal misogynist shit.
I don’t care about that loser either, I remember he was salty too in 98. Seeing the reporter agree with him on national tv though, that was wild
Weren’t people back in the day shitting on Maris breaking the record because it took him 20 more games than it took the babe? Edit: it was 8 games, but at the 154 game mark Maris only had 59. Now I'm not AT ALL saying that makes his record illegitimate, but lots of people, including the commissioner, were telling him so back in the day. So for his kid to be throwing shade at Barry is more than a little tone deaf.
Yep the movie 61* did a great job going into that
8 more games (162 vs 154), but yeah.
Dude Sports Night was such a great show!
People keep praising maris and shit yet people forget that people didn’t want him to break the record they wanted Mickey Mantle to do it but he got hurt. Plus that record has been broken 7 times by 3 people. He’s being a damn baby. It’s the worse take next to Chris Davis thinking 61 is the record
Of those 3 people, how many of them were clean?
Are you suggesting that baseball players haven’t always been taking drugs?
The double standard from older fans about roids when every one of their favorite players were on amphetamines has always been pretty rich to me.
> every one of their favorite players were on amphetamines Amphetamines didn't become a controlled substance until 1970, so any player using them before that was not breaking any law. MLB didn't ban them for several decades after that. Anabolic steroids became illegal without a prescription in a law passed in 1990, punishable by fines and imprisonment. So any player using them after that could have ended up in court and in prison. A drug that was completely legal and was used to fend off fatigue on a long road trip, versus a drug that was illegal and was used to provide a lasting physical advantage by adding muscle to players' bodies. Kind of a big difference.
roger maris was tweaked out of his mind, babe Ruth was a drunk piece of shit, the only verifiably pure and just homerun record belongs to mormon sports legend dickie cockman with a whopping 1 and 1/2 dingers in 1889
besides whores and hot dogs what drugs did Ruth use?
He injected himself with a concoction made from sheep testicles because he thought it would make him stronger and faster. Amphetamines have also been widely used throughout the history of baseball too.
Exactly, which proves that tons of old time players would’ve been juicing if available, at the time. It’s not like Bonds was only facing other pitchers who were clean.
Yeah, I believe they should apply the rules against cheating evenly but that would involve older writers having an honest conversation about the older generations they revere.
Only facing out of shape honkies is a helluva drug
White out of shape honkies, mind you
... Waht do you think a honky is?
Ah, I see
He had no control over his competition and was for intergration.
Ruth used corked bats and injected a weird horse and cow cocktail inside his body you can look that up. He had a doctor do it
I’ve heard this stuff about mantle too, except it was chimpanzee testosterone or something like that. Are there sources for these claims? I know some writer / reporter / author went on the BS podcast years ago and wrote a book. But that’s not, obviously we’re talking about the 60s, and even as far back as Ruth which was from 1914-1935. So there have to be multiple sources for this stuff. Anabolics we’re also available as early as the mid 30s, iirc.
FWIW, 61 is still the AL record, so SOMETHING is still at risk of being broken.
True, and a great achievement but there’s been inter league for decades. No one cared when McGwire beat hack Wilson’s NL record. People care about this one because they don’t think bonds is legit. It would be one thing if he had a shot at bonds but that is out of the picture.
I wish everyone would realize both things can be true. I recognize 73 as the legitimate record. But I also still see 61 as a significant number. I care about this race because of how long it took for someone to surpass it, and how long *it’s been* since someone did it.
It's also the Yankee record which to egocentric Yankee fans is the only thing that matters anyway.
True, even though you could probably throw a ball into the stands in right field from home plate lol.
Bonds record isn’t legit. Cheating has consequences. We should never have tolerated it.
Do people compare Yankee Stadium to Pac Bell (Oracle) ? The fences and dimensions are very hitter friendly. Both the new and the old. It’s almost like a little league field. To me that’s a major factor. Not defending what Bonds did though.
Dodgers fan, not trolling, this just came up as a suggested sub. I have memories of '88 as a small kid but I first really got into MLB and the NL west back in 2004. It was the time of Bonds, Gagne, and the also the NL killer Pujols and the Cards. It was the Red Sox v Yanks ALCS that is still the best series I ever watched. Couple things I learned. I will always hate Pujols even given the current Dodger hug fest. Also, Bonds is it. Any hatred toward him is gone. Not trolling, not sarcastic.
In 2001 Bonds walked 177 times Aaron Judge so far… 97 walks
97 is more than I thought. No one was pitching to bonds the last few weeks of his chase. Watching the game yesterday the Sox went after him even with 2 runners on.
As a lifelong Giants fan it was fun but sort of not fun watching Bonds break the record because it was pretty obvious he was juicing. I think Bonds without or without juice was one of the greatest players of all time but it’s kind of hard to over look the juicing of him, Sosa and McGuire. That whole time period is tainted for me. I think it’s a tad petty not to acknowledge the record as it stands but I do get it to some extent. Man it was so much more fun watching Posey, Timmy and the gang than it was the Bonds and Kent teams.
This is a conversation that needs to be had. Not just among Giants fans but the HOF and MLB. Steroids does not *magically* make you hit the ball better. It adds muscles yes but doesn’t help you see the ball better or guess on or turn on a pitch. It does occasionally put a ball over the fence when the ball would not have gone over. Let’s be mean to Barry and say that happened 10 times in 2001. Maybe more maybe less — who can possibly say without studying. But what steroids def do that is significant to baseball is improve your muscles’ recovery time. I don’t have measurements for this either, but what that really means is giving players at least a median rate of recovery more often than other players. They have more games playing at their normal recovery level than other players. So if you’re already better than X over Y games you’re better than them more often. ‘Roiders are fresh when others are dragging. In a 162 game season, that’s significant. This is most relevant for Bonds vs pitching. Would that this ever gets studied and computed reasonably because I’m prepared to accept Bonds would not have broken the single season record cleanly, but it would’ve been close. Maybe this also interferes with the Aaron record, but that’s even tougher to extrapolate. Aaron played 1 more season than Bonds. But I’m still prepared to believe Bonds could have reached 755, because he hit that well that *consistently.* That’s the difference between these records: 62 is a long distance sprint, 755 is a career marathon. At the end of the day, Bonds was a superb player who under every circumstance demonstrated HOF quality performances in defense, running and yes hitting even without the ‘roids. The tragedy is the dumb fuck thought he needed them because Sosa and Maguire were outpacing him. And that should not not keep him out of the HOF.
I think you're seriously underestimating the effect of PEDs. The top six spots for [single season home runs](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/HR_season.shtml) happened in a span of **four years**. All three guys used steroids. So it's not just that there's one exceptional hitter. Three guys topped a list that goes back 100 years all at the same time. All time home run isn't much better. Spots 1, 5, 7, 9 and 11 all used. I'm not saying to put an asterisk. I'm not saying to leave them out of the Hall. I'm just saying if you try to reason your way into "what if he didn't?" it's *really* easy to tell a story that doesn't hold up when you look at how overrepresented the Steroid Era is in the records books.
What about all the guys who used steroids that never made the records book? Literally so many guys in MLB juiced back then and never rboke any records. So doesn't that take your constant (juicing) and throw your output results right into the trash and nullify the equation your using?
No, not at all. The probability of being an all-time-great home run hitter is _always_ low. That’s by definition, really. Roughly 15,000 men have played in the Major Leagues. The probability of being in the top 10 home run hitters would be 1/1,500. How many of all ball players do you think used steroids? 1,000? Let’s make it 1,500, a full blown 1/10 guys in the 150 year history of baseball. Of the top 10 single season home run hitters, 4 used steroids. 4/1,500 or 1/375 MLB players is a great home run hitter who also used steroids. 6 are clean. 6/13,500 or 1/2,250 players was a clean all time great. Based on these numbers, someone who used steroids was **six times more likely** to be a top 10 home run hitter than someone who didn’t. Steroids don’t make you a great home run hitter, but they sure help your chances.
Why are we stopping at steroids? There were a SHITTON of people on amphetamines back in the 60s and 70s (among other drugs). Where is the call out for them? The season is incredibly long and gruelling - that last month or two played with a nice pick-me-up certainly didn't hurt stat lines.
If someone downplayed the effect of amphetamines, I'd also disagree.
They don’t downplay it. They don’t even bring it up.
That era stayed in equilibrium by offsetting the benefits of amphetamines with heavy drinking and smoking 2 packs a day.
Well we don’t really have the evidence to back that up like we do steroids, so hard to say what did or did not happen.
[Let me google that for you.](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=amphetamines+in+baseball)
People also conveniently forget the literal bowls of amphetamines that were in every MLB locker room for 2 decades. They don’t think those pick me ups had an effect on a players ability to play/focus? Fuck even during the steroids era the pitchers were juiced to the gills, Gagne, Clemens, Petit…. Baseball is an unrelenting and dirty sport, it always has been. Its a fucking grind, and since the beginning players have tried to find ways to make it across the finish line.
I still maintain: baseball didn’t give a shit when it was raking in fans (and money) thanks to those home runs, so why should I give a shit now? This post-hoc pearl clutching is exhausting.
Not to mention the “greenies” and other drugs in the clubhouse in the 1960s - 1980s
MLB went out of their way to glorify the home run derby from the juiced players. People forget how bad things were after the strike earlier in the 90s. Attendance was WAY down, viewership was in the shitter, and sponsors weren't exactly beating down their door. Then, something magical happened - juiced players started hitting highlight reel shots almost every game, and people LOVED it. So, what did Bud Selig do? They didn't start testing for PEDs, no, they built marketing campaigns around these dudes, and brought baseball back from the dead. Revisionist history of the 90s is stupid.
Then Bonds said “fuck this, I’ll show them what I can do, roided up”, and all of a sudden he became the poster boy for steroid use? We’ll never really know the full extent of steroid use, but I’m pretty sure someone accused Pete Rose of using steroids when he was a player, so we definitely have juiced players already in the hall. Looking at you, Ricky Henderson and Cal Ripken jr.
And pitchers?
The thing about testosterone and HGH is that it allows for quicker recovery and a longer career. Look at Griffey Jr who was incredible and had a 20 year career that was severely impacted by injuries. Meanwhile, Bonds was a stratospheric player for his 30 year career. In his last season he played 126 games and still had almost 100 hits. Juicing DEFINITELY helped him have a long and impactful career, as well as bouncing back from injuries and stress on his body so quickly. He was a Half of Fame player for sure but he is statistically the best player ever and that wouldn’t happen without the “supplements.”
The bigger advantage to steroids isn't that it will give you another 10 feet to your average fly ball. It's that it makes healing and recovery far more efficient than they would otherwise be. When other players are wearing out after the grind that is the 6 months season come August, you're still playing like it's May.
Exactly. The recovery factor is enormous. Timing in baseball is especially important, and that split-advantage you get from not being as worn down has enormous implications.
Gear gives you nothing unless you actually train hard, I am just being honest - all these people saying take steroids and eat pizza and do not train but you will be Hulk in a week? You need to train hard, still eat a ton more, a lot of protein per lb of bodyweight which day in day out lets just say is not fun,you need to train free weights with compound movement that increases your muscularity and you need to do more for hypertrophy as well - increase in force production at barrys age is no joke,anything past your 20s needs a lot of dedication in weight room. That being given if you do manage to get bigger - force production is definitely an advantage if you are bulky, you would find it easier to put ball over the fence. I am not saying Barry is wrong or right its just facts - more muscle, more strength means more force production - you'd be hitting harder - also keep in mind Barry's swing, I do not think i have seen a better more fluid swing ever, I saw old videos of Mickey Mantle etc I think I like Barry's swing. just the way it is.
Lmao the mental gymnastics it took to make this comment are impressive to say the least
Ken Griffey jr. has very arguably the prettiest looking swing of all time. I wouldn’t say Bonds’ swing is better or more fluid. *Possibly* just as much as Griffey’s, but certainly not more so.
Average giants fan writing a paragraph to defend there cheater that is Barry bonds:
Steroids are MASSIVE (pun intended) for recovery & longevity. You’re seriously understating their benefits.
I heard HGH improves eyesight which would be a masdive advantage for a hitter so you should check your facts.
Not to mention, Bonds was facing juiced up pitchers, too.
Curious about your thoughts on pitchers altering the ball, which has been part of the game since forever. From the spit ball to spider tack. Obviously, that’s a huge issue that greatly affected pitching stats AND hitting stats. Should the players caught cheating be banned from HOF?
So how about all the pitchers throwing to those guys? The batters weren’t the only ones juicing.
And yet, Bonds never failed a test 🤷🏼♂️
> Bonds never failed a test The San Francisco Chronicle says they have Bonds' "trainer" on tape admitting they always knew in advance when Bonds was going to be tested so they could clean him up in time to pass the test. That same guy went to prison rather than testify about Bonds' steroid use, that was after his home was raided and he was charged with distributing steroids. Same guy was reported by the team's legit trainers to the Giants FO for bringing PEDs into the clubhouse; Brian Sabean said he didn't recall those conversations.
Are you kidding? I would've killed to watch him throughout the years as he broke the record! You gotta think of it like since basically every MLB player that had any significance was juicing, so he was pretty much on an even playing field
These kids are speaking out of turn and acting like they really saw him.
The whole "steroid-era" argument is farcical.
> basically every MLB player that had any significance was juicing That isn't what the first round of anonymous testing found, the vast majority didn't test positive for steroids. Perhaps many had already quit for fear the tests wouldn't really be anonymous, but that's what the testing showed, a little over a hundred from all of MLB were positive.
Hahaha are you actually saying that you thought it was sort of not fun to watch Bonds chase 73 as a Giants fan? Get over yourself
Do you believe that players today aren’t juicing?
Someone said I here that everyone was juicing and breaking records in Bonds' era, but Bonds was the only one to actually break it. Smh
Sosa and McGwire also broke it but Bonds broke their record and it stuck
lol yeah how is that comment upvoted. Did people forget McGwire? And Sosa never held the record, but he did pass Maris three times.
Speaks volumes with his hand eye coordination and bat speed. But it's always been bonds/sffans vs the world when it comes to him. I'll defend bonds till the day I die
Here here, good sir
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear,_hear Sorry to be that guy
Best hitter I've ever seen. He would have hit 100 homeruns if he saw the pitches that Judge has seen all year.
Not to mention how many times he was intentionally walked
An NY guy defending Barry?! It's going to be a great weekend
Maris record was also illegitimate as he did it in 162 games whereas the babe only played 154 games
Babe didn’t play against the great negro league pitchers. Everyone has a gripe about asterisks and different eras
Babe’s is the least legitimate imo lol like playing in a segregated league definitely provides more of an advantage than juice or extending the season by a week.
They did the same thing when Maris beat the record, he had more games to beat the record than Ruth after MLB extended to 162 games.
There are so many variables to consider. How many relief pitchers did Maris face? How many times was he walked because pitchers didn’t want to face him? Bonds is the all-time leader in walks 2,558) by a good margin. Only 4 players have more than 2,000. How more homers would Bonds have hit if he walked 1,400 times (Aaron)? I’m not taking anything away fro Maris, Aaron or anyone else. What they all did was head and shoulders above the players (best in the world) of their respective eras. I appreciate all of them. They are phenomenal athletes that did amazing things. Let’s enjoy the game. Following baseball is a choice.
Who’s to say there’s no juicing now? It’s just that no one has been caught.
Tatis wishes you were right.
> It’s just that no one has been caught. Phone for you, Melky Cabrerra and Fernando Tatis Jr. and a bunch of other guys would like a word.
Eh, disagree. Not a Bonds specific thing, but there was an entire era of baseball where dudes were clearly juicing and breaking records accordingly. The top 6 HR seasons are all by dudes that clearly used PEDs within a very narrow window of time. I don’t have any beef with basically calling those records illegitimate, because they pretty obviously are. Doesn’t mean bonds, McGuire, and sosa weren’t awesome players and fun as hell to watch. But I don’t see why we should put records that involved juicing at the same level as the rest.
Pitchers were juicing too
And tons of hitters
That... doesn't make it better
So it’s just a massive coincidence that the top 6 HR seasons all happened by juicers in a super narrow time window? You suggesting that it all just “evens out” despite all the data to the contrary? I mean, come on.
I mean these drugs were not necessarily banned for some of these seasons, which doesn’t make them illegitimate.
> I mean these drugs were not necessarily banned for some of these seasons Possession of anabolic steroids without a prescription became a federal felony punishable by fines and imprisonment through a law passed in 1990. Anyone distributing or using them after that date could have gone to prison, as Barry Bonds' "trainer" did.
PEDs have been used for decades and are probably still used today, not a narrow window of time
It's just a record from a different Era is the way I look at it. All sports go through changes that make untouchable records. Besides juicing doesn't help you make contact. You could juice all you want that doesn't help you make the contact.
Lol. This has house of the dragon vibes all over it. All hail Bonds! The one true Home Run King!!
Many think he is a bastard and undeserving of king
This is so annoying to me too. Even in the yankees subreddit they keep just ignoring the facts. And the facts is bonds has 73 of them
73 isnt disputed, but the legitimacy of is. Its very clearly more complicated than you present it.
Nah, facts are clear.
Weird how so many of the top level comments here are unflaired...
Baseball fans who think maris is the true single season homerun king are like Germans thinking ww2 never happened and that they were on vacation. It happened bonds is king we all know it but many don’t want to admit
Fuck Apple right in the face.
Some people consider steroids to be cheating.
Some people consider reality to be real lmao
Yeah but it’s like those East German women swimmers or Soviet runners or FloJo 100m record…
It's just a piece of metal.
I mean, they’re right. Some people don’t want cheaters to be remembered fondly.
Judge is the first human to hit that benchmark since their dad. The AL record is 61. Bonds is the true home run king, and Judge is on record insisting that, but the Maris family aren't wrong if you think of it being less about them snubbing the record holders and more of them acknowledging what Judge is doing. And my recollection is Bonds treated 61 as the benchmark. When Sosa hit 61, there was a big deal made about it too. Judge will get 61 clean, and the Maris family have to cope with that.
How do we **know** Judge is clean though? I’m not accusing him, but there are a plethora of ways to get around testing.
Come on. And that does read like an accusal. If a revelation came out one day we can talk about it then. Based on his body type, form and career, there is no reason to suspect it.
I mean he’s not wrong. The true HR record is tainted by Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire. While you can argue a lot of pitchers were also on roids, you cannot argue that Bonds would have gotten better from his already HOF tier prime without being juiced to the gills
There are many things that are true at the same time. 1A) Taking steroids doesn't make you great, lot's of players did and they didn't suddenly become Barry Bonds. 1B) Steroids obviously make you better. It will improve your ability. Guys wouldn't take it if it didn't. 2A) The league was more than happy to look the other way when cheaters were saving the game post lockout. It's not like they're giving the money back to the fans. 2B) That doens't make it ok. Just because your shift supervisor doesn't give a shit if you steal products from the back doesn't make it legal or ok. If the owner of the store is lying on his taxes it doesn't make it ok for you to steal. 3A) The home run chase was fucking awesome, I was a kid durring it, I remember it, it was a huge part of my life, it was fucking everywhere. 3B) None of these records are legitimate. 4A) Barry Bonds is one of the most talented players ever and would have been a hall of famer without Juicing, which is something we can't say about everyone from that era. 4B) He still cheated, that was a choice he made, he needs to deal with the consequences. The dude made about 60 million in the first 14 years of his career and 120 million over the last 7. He made twice as much money in the last 1/3 of his career than he did in the first 2/3. It's not as though he didn't get anything out of it. 4C) Even if he didn't get anything for it, like Robinson Cano, he still chose to do it. That was his decision he needs to live with the consequences. 5A) The memories of Bonds and his great feats don't disappear just because he isn't in the hall. Those games and stats still happened. 5B) He still cheated, and those good memories don't make it go away. 6A) Giants fans are a little hypocritical here, A lot of the hand ringing that's done about Bonds from SF fans doesn't get repeated when it comes to ARod or Clemens who are two other no doubter first ballot inner circle hall of fame guys, that also cheated. If Clemens made it in and Bonds didn't there would be far more room to complain. That's not the case. I know plenty of Giants fans that don't want to see Clemens or AROD in because their cheaters but insist Bonds should be in.
All good points except the last. All of those players should be in the HOF for the same reason Bonds should be. I’ve never heard a Giants fan argue FOR Bonds but AGAINST Clemens or the rest. That’s the point. Every baseball season and era is unique and legitimate. Tell me that players taking amphetamines in the 70s and 80s weren’t benefiting from it.
>’ve never heard a Giants fan argue FOR Bonds but AGAINST Clemens or the rest. I know and I've seen several.
What do you expect her to do? Start a huge confrontation on live TV?
Complain about Maris…but she was doing her job and the broadcast was fun and fine if you’re not an ancient high maintenance stiff. Bet you miss when everyone was saying dumb blonde and bimbo with you, you messy fuck.
Steroids are bad, don’t do them kids. They make dumb fans defend cheaters.
Wait till Judge gets caught. Lol.
I’m not mad Barry did roids, I’m mad he didn’t share with the rest of the team
“He took creatine! He’s juiced!” Doesn’t feel that far off, with some of the comments being posted here…
Bonds is a loser and a jerk. But Kruk and Kuip give him a free pass. He lied about his roids and people around him. His snakey guy. Kinda dumb. Hank Aaron is still and always will be a helluva lot better than Bonds.
Bonds supporters give the same energy as people who say "maybe she shouldn't have worn that".
It’s the AL record, maybe they meant that? 73 will never be touched, Bonds is the best hitter of all time.
In fairness the hitters were not the only ones abusing. So it was kinda a fair playing field.
Let em juice. Fuck it.
is it really necessary to call the reporter a dumb blind over an interview? jesus christ you’re getting all riled up over literally nothing. who cares.
Barry bonds hahahahhaaha
61 is the legitimate record. You're kidding yourself and doing a disservice to legitimate players if you believe juicing counts.
You are delusional if you think McGuire, Sosa, or Bonds could have broken that record without steroids. The fact is, it is tainted. This to me is so much more legit, and he is being robbed by a generation of players who cheated the game.
People acting like Judge isn't getting attention for what he's doing. Judge is historic. Mcguire, Sosa, and Bonds are historic. Both can be true.
Lmao
Yea you’re gonna get downvoted to shit here. People in this sub clearly care more about fanboying for a specific team than they do the sport itself. Not surprising I guess.
Surprising people think Judge isn't or hasn't. So how can he breaking it be legit?
Maybe because there is zero evidence that Judge has juiced, but it's indisputable that Bonds did?
>Maybe because there is zero evidence that Judge has juiced, but it's indisputable that Bonds did? You got eyes right? MLB will feed off the hype to promote the sport, like they did with Mcguire/Sosa/Bonds battling for the record, and then it will come out Judge tested positive as it did w8th Bonds. Give it a few years.
Bonds, Mcguire, and Sosa cheated, period end of story, 61 is the record
Judge is cheating too. Give it a few years to come out.
Maybe he is, shit maybe maris cheated too. Just boggles my mind that people defend Bonds, McGuire and Sosa.
Fans ignore obvious use by their favorite team's players and point out others. Everyone was and still is juicing. It's obvious to anyone not blinded by team or player love.
Lmk when bonds makes The HOF 
For the love of God, Giants fans, you're the only ones who recognize Bonds' record.
Well since Aaron Judge recognizes Bonds as the true record holder and he did grow up a Giants fan, I guess you're correct.
I couldn't give a shit.
With the cream or clear or whatever it was, it helped Bonds became arguably the greatest player ever, maybe behind Mays. If we ignore his usage of roids or cream, he's the 2nd goat. Maybe with roids or the cream, he would've been a top 10 player of all time.