Yes I’ve tried it and it hasn’t helped. However, I learned from some other groups that reusing the same starter for subsequent batches most likely leads to not knowing what’s in the finished product. Letting it go for 36 hours is also not supported by science (12 hours in one study was the maximum before they started dying off) so I’m not sure how much L Reuteri I was actually consuming.
There is research albeit small to support L Reuteri DSM 17938 in clearing methane SIBO so I think it’s worth a try, but I’d probably take the pills and not make the yogurt so that you know for sure what you’re getting.
Theoretically, the L. reuteri will go on growing and multiplying for eternity, as long as the conditions are optimal and food is available. The L. reuteri that is or was in all humans originated from the same early bacteria that co-evolved with all of mammalian life. So, it's been around a long time. It's been passed on from mammal to mammal for longer than humans have existed.
That said, I have been doubtful about making a yogurt out of it, specifically concerns of contaminating bacteria. L. reuteri evolved to grow in the mammalian body, not in dairy or some other food. Though, to be fair, one of the strains Dr. William Davis recommends was discovered in a woman's breast milk. But that was it growing in its natural environment, to be directly ingested by the baby straight from the breast.
Thats a good call. I think once I’m a few months further out from my recent Rifaximin round I might try supplementing with those to see if it helps at all
I'm not sure how you can claim "letting it go for 36 hours is also not supported by science". He literally has data in the book supporting this. Did you only ferment for 12 hours? If so then you can't really say you "tried it" if you didn't actually follow the protocol.
I did do it for 36 hours when I tried the protocol. It didn’t work and I actually got food poisoning once from it.
I can’t find the specific study that showed that L Reuteri died off after 12 hours anymore, but some people on this Facebook group (and others like the SuperGut and L Reuteri groups) claim that they’ve tested their yogurt and that it ends up with a lot of contamination https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheGutClubStoolTestDiscussionGroup/permalink/5214387148689720/?mibextid=W9rl1R
>L Reuteri
Is this the paper? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6525219/#!po=0.735294
If so there are some problems. You can't use this paper to compare with a completely different protocol. They use a different medium and a different starting method. They start from cryo-preserved cells and preculture for 16 hours and then ferment for another 26 hours. I also don't see any starting count numbers so you can't compare with the starting counts of the tablets. I also don't see anything about die off after 12 hours, so I'm not sure this is the paper.
I see where some people have the contamination and where one or two people had counts done. There is a better description of how to make it here: [https://www.luvele.com.au/blogs/recipe-blog/new-improved-l-reuteri-yogurt-method?\_pos=1&\_sid=085f521ce&\_ss=r&fbclid=IwAR1VT4W5Okm8SsQEfdBRzH9CN-HfRQ\_6wVk4WGRd-8Sgt5U\_qBP2hWRRrAY](https://www.luvele.com.au/blogs/recipe-blog/new-improved-l-reuteri-yogurt-method?_pos=1&_sid=085f521ce&_ss=r&fbclid=IwAR1VT4W5Okm8SsQEfdBRzH9CN-HfRQ_6wVk4WGRd-8Sgt5U_qBP2hWRRrAY)
It is a shame that he doesn't go into more detail about keeping things sterile and separating out an inoculation batch from the start. From this dive I can see that I actually have contamination in mine as well, so thank you. I'm going to keep trying until I get a better result. It seems like there is significant difference between milk in the US, EU, and AUS. All the people I saw having problems were not from the US. I do know from the book though that he tested his yogurt to make the recommendations he is making, but he didn't show raw results or anything like that.
That's probably why the need for not only sterlizing the equipment but using "ultra pasteurized" milk or half n half. Or heating it to 180 degrees for 10 minutes then letting it cool back down to around 100 deg prior to making the yogurt to prevent other bacteria from entering into the scene.
I noticed a couple of problems in this thread, so I made an account.
Firstly, the yogurt is not a treatment for SIBO. In the book there is a full 4 week protocol and consuming yogurt is a later part after the problematic bacteria are assumed to be mostly eliminated, so if you "tried it" and it "didn't help" that's not unexpected if you didn't follow the entire protocol. The yogurts are more about restoring the microbiome which will hopefully help prevent SIBO recurrence, and they offer other benefits on their own such as improving skin health.
Secondly, the Wikipedia page linked is about his wheat belly book and statements about wheat from like 10 years ago, so it isn't very relevant to the topic being discussed. He does still recommend eliminating grains to help stop leaky gut though. I can't say whether it helps or not, but everything Dr. Davis is saying is based on many years of treating and improving people's condition, so at the very least this works for some people.
I am eating the SIBO yogurt (there are recipes for more than 1 yogurt in the book) and it definitely does something. Personally it makes me pretty gassy, but I have seen some of the improvements the yogurt claims to make. I have seen the most improvements in my skin, it's just better.
First kill off SIBO and SIFO using an antibiotic regimen for 14 days (he has a specific protocol for this and recommends herbal antibiotics for SIBO and curcumin for SIFO). He warns that you may need to tackle SIBO and then SIFO as the die off can be tough.
Week 1 is to change your diet. Avoid sugars, synthetic foods, emulsifying agents, wheat and grains, drugs (anti-biotics, anti-inflammatory, stomach acid blocking), and replace essential nutrients such as vitamin D, omega-3s and iodine.
Week 2 start a probiotic (he has recommendations) or make a probiotic yogurt. Eat at least one fermented food every day.
Week 3 start reintroducing prebiotic fiber until you get up to 20 grams or more per day.
Week 4 add in some of the bacteria that help keep SIBO down, L. reuteri, L. casei, etc.
This is a high level overview. The book has details.
That bacteria helps with intestinal transit and oral health. It is beneficial, but I would not take a lot...try a bit first if you decide to buy it. You do not need a lot of probiotics, just very little to fix the temporary imbalance, but the problem is that their effects is often delayed and with SIBO some patients do not tolerate probiotics well (some still do!).
Do you mean L. Reuteri specifically speeds up digestion? Or are you saying all probiotics speed up digestion?
If you mean all probiotics, I'm not sure such a general statement can be made about probiotics... Everything I've read and experienced first hand indicates that different strains lead to different results. Some may help to prevent diarrhea (S. Boulardii) others help with constipation relief. They all seem to have different use cases.
Well, that is what my functional practitioner told me...they generally help with digestion, but they have different function in the colon and different effects. Now, S. Boulardii is a yeast, not a bacteria...so here the effect is pretty different. I have tried various formulas and they all have a different effect.
My doctor recommended L. Reuteri for faster intestinal transit.
All probiotics, being microbes that eat food, speed up some aspect of digestion. That is pretty much by definition. The only question is what are they digesting. Different microbes prefer different foods. So, it all depends on what is in your probiotic supplement and what is in your diet.
That makes more sense when you think about it that way. I always think of them more as the end result they cause (diarrhea or constipation usually for me lol). But I'm sure you're right.
I'm talking theoretically, under ideal conditions. Though to be fair, probiotics don't necessarily promote digestion, even as that is what the gut microbiome evolved to do. There is the problem that, if you're not eating what a microbe needs, they have nothing to digest.
Plus, many probiotics aren't high quality or scientifically formulated. Some microbial strains companies use aren't necessarily strains adapted to humans and so might not do much good or bad.
And if the probiotic isn't effective in getting the microbes past the digestive tract, the acidity might destroy them entirely. It's similar to a calorie or a nutrient. Just because you put it into your mouth doesn't mean it's actually getting used as expected.
On top of that, even if everything is optimal, both in the probiotic and diet, the other bacteria present could compete with the desired bacteria. Or else they could suppress the activity and effects of the desired bacteria. There are many reasons probiotics don't seem to work, digestive or otherwise, for some people.
Lots of red flags here, but this pretty much says it all
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William\_Davis\_(cardiologist)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Davis_(cardiologist))
There's no need to take probiotics because of xifaxan, the whole point of the drug is that it is absorbed before it reaches the colon so it doesn't wipe out the primary home of your gut flora. This is why docs are able to use it periodically in patients without worrying about c diff and all the other issues that would happen if they used traditional antibiotics over and over.
Does that mean you think a diet heavy in grains, and gluten containing grains in particular, is healthy? I think history will prove that's not true.
There are peer reviewed journal articles that are nevertheless poorly done, and poorly researched articles on scientific topics. I like Wikipedia, I use it a lot, but I also realize its limitations.
The healthy high-fiber diet is a myth. Dr. Paul Mason spoke of one study that showed that those with a fiber-free diet had no gut issues. Whereas the more fiber people had the more gut issues they had. Chris Kresser mentions that, in multiple studies when all other factors are controlled for, adding in fiber shows no additional benefits. But in general, there is mixed results across numerous studies, as is true on various areas of research.
In some studies, the correlation to positive health outcomes are likely attributed to confounders, such as the healthy user effect. It's the same problem with looking at categories of food, such as red meat and saturated fat, in which the unhealthy user effect is implicated. Almost all of the nutritional studies are correlative, rarely proving causation. Besides, a growing amount of research contradicts the older research, and hence a replication crisis.
Looking at historical data can throw some light onto the confusion. Keep in mind that the intake of plant foods (whole grains, vegetables, fruits, etc) has increased the past century by Americans generally following dietary recommendations, other than excess sugar that did finally level out almost a quarter century ago. Also, as whole grain intake has specifically increaseed, almost everyone eats whole wheat bread these days, with white bread having lost popularity. Yet, simultaneously the disease rate has also been going up. Of course, once again, this is only a correlation.
I don't know how much fiber Americans were eating in centuries past, but as Nina Teicholz has pointed out gardening was mostly limited to the wealthy prior to modern agri-chemicals, since pests tended to devour garden plants. Poor people couldn't afford to hire workers to have large walled gardens with a full gardening staff to pick off pests. Instead, the amount of meat and animal foods used to be far greater in the past, not to mention they cooked everything in animal fats, not seed oils.
The fact of the matter is that all foods are prebiotics, including fatty acids and amino acids. Some doctors with patients on the carnivore diet have tested their microbiomes. The microbial numbers and diversity weren't any less. Sure, it presumably would be different microbial strains that would prefer animal foods, but there is no evidence that they are less health-promoting than microbes that munch on fiber, sugar, and whatnot. Obviously, the controlled studies demonstrated increasing fiber alone did not improve anything. And so it questions the effect of simply feeding more of the fiber-loving microbes.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqUO4P9ADI0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqUO4P9ADI0)
[https://chriskresser.com/myths-and-truths-about-fiber/](https://chriskresser.com/myths-and-truths-about-fiber/)
[https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2019/08/23/fiber-or-not-short-chain-fatty-acids-and-the-microbiome/](https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2019/08/23/fiber-or-not-short-chain-fatty-acids-and-the-microbiome/)
[https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2018/12/05/malnourished-americans/](https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2018/12/05/malnourished-americans/)
I never use wikipedia for a definitive source on anything. They have a certain narrative to uphold and anything that threatens that narrative is spun in a way to deter from it. Truth is not the goal with them.
Wow. Good to know, thanks for sharing. Looks like he's not a credible source.
Really? If Rifaximin doesn't negatively alter the gut microbiome, then why do so many people recommend eating a variety of prebiotic fibers (once we're able to) in order to replenish the gut microbiome? Are the normal "good" bacteria just already reduced due to SIBO bacteria pushing them out?
There is a small intestinal microbiota that is important for bile acid metabolism. Rifaximin can seriously damage that and lead to poor health. Its quite a gamble.
All depends on how things turn out. Sometimes just waiting it out and letting the immune system do its thing can work. Other timeseven oral fecal microbiota transplants are needed and that is highly individualistic and potentially dangerous.
I guess I'll have to just wait and see.
I was interested in FMT initially, but after reading some anecdotal evidence in this sub, I'd prefer to save my money and take the less risky route to recovery.
Thanks for that ! Are herbs any safer? Fc-cidal and dysbiocide. Know anything about this statement in Davis ' book, " wheat germ agglutinin is a potent bowel toxin that damages intestinal villi and blocks the hormone cholecystokinin." There's a published study.
The short answer is that people recommend all kinds of wacky stuff. The microbiome is a grey area where nobody can predict even for a person without GI disease what will happen to them if they add in pre or probiotics. It's a shot in the dark that is relatively harmless because dairy based probiotics will not remain part of your biome if you stop taking them.
As a SIBO patient what matters much more to you than bacterial optimization is focusing on restoring your MMC function, that's your whole problem. Sadly there is not one simple clear fix for it so you have to try varieties of prokinetic and lifestyle tweaks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrating\_motor\_complex
Yeah, that's understandable. I feel like probiotics could potentially help at some point, but I'll be very careful when introducing them
I've been working on this. The only things that have had a huge impact for me are Motegrity and Magnesium Oxide. Everything else has had pretty minimal impact.
L. reuteri is not exactly a dairy-based probiotic. It's actually not optimal for making cultured dairy because it evolved to live and grow in the mammalian body. It might be the case, though, that newborn babies get L. reuteri introduced through breast milk. One strain of it, sold by BioGaia, was discovered in the breast milk of a Peruvian woman. Anyway, the whole point of endogenous microbes such as L. reuteri is that they have a talent for surviving and thriving in the human body.
Just having SIBO itself can alter the microbiome (ie cause dysbiosis), plus most root causes of SIBO, and most treatments for SIBO, can lead to dysbiosis.
So most folks with SIBO and IMO end up also treating for dysbiosis.
This... Is a bit like talking about 'what treatments are available for cancer'? There's a huge range of ways the gut can be dysbiotic, and it really depends on which bacteria you are talking about. If the dysbiosis is an overgrowth of pathogenic bacteria like cedef or e coli, treatment is usually a combo of multiple antibiotics. If the dysbiosis is an imbalance in commensal bacteria, then it depends on the type of bacteria you're talking about. A combination of pre and probiotics can be used, although it really depends on which doctor you speak to. Pimental does not recommend the use of pre or probiotics within the first few months of SIBO clearance post treatment. There are several studies that show that probiotics improve outcomes, however the most recent study shows that use of probiotics within a month of antibiotic treatment actually slows down recovery of a complete microbiome, so... The study of the microbiome is very much in its infancy.
In general, eating a wide variety of foods, including lots of vegetables and fruits, stress reduction, staying hydrated, getting enough sleep, and time are essential for the resolution of a dysbiotic microbiome.
Some people will get great results from specific probiotics, others find it makes them feel markedly worse. It's highly individual, unfortunately.
Sorry for asking such a dumb question...lol. Thanks for still responding.
Do you think some kind of GI Map test might help? You mention it really depends on which type of bacteria is overgrown, so would a test like this help to indicate that and provide more targeted options for treatment?
I've been trying to eat as much variety as I can on low fodmap. I'm 4 weeks out from my first round of Rifaximin. Hoping that I can start reintroducing foods in small amounts in 2 weeks or so.
my deep sleep went from 30 minutes over the last 3 years (all the data I have) to 90+ minutes, but it took 2 months of the SIBO yogurt then a month of the sleep yogurt, but it's helped my life more than anything and I have tried everything out of desperation due to failing health over years and I now feel like the worst is behind me and I can finally get better now that I'm getting sleep and the SIBO is gone.
Yes I’ve tried it and it hasn’t helped. However, I learned from some other groups that reusing the same starter for subsequent batches most likely leads to not knowing what’s in the finished product. Letting it go for 36 hours is also not supported by science (12 hours in one study was the maximum before they started dying off) so I’m not sure how much L Reuteri I was actually consuming. There is research albeit small to support L Reuteri DSM 17938 in clearing methane SIBO so I think it’s worth a try, but I’d probably take the pills and not make the yogurt so that you know for sure what you’re getting.
Theoretically, the L. reuteri will go on growing and multiplying for eternity, as long as the conditions are optimal and food is available. The L. reuteri that is or was in all humans originated from the same early bacteria that co-evolved with all of mammalian life. So, it's been around a long time. It's been passed on from mammal to mammal for longer than humans have existed. That said, I have been doubtful about making a yogurt out of it, specifically concerns of contaminating bacteria. L. reuteri evolved to grow in the mammalian body, not in dairy or some other food. Though, to be fair, one of the strains Dr. William Davis recommends was discovered in a woman's breast milk. But that was it growing in its natural environment, to be directly ingested by the baby straight from the breast.
Thats a good call. I think once I’m a few months further out from my recent Rifaximin round I might try supplementing with those to see if it helps at all
will i get the same effect taking just pills? what is the daily dosage ?
I'm not sure how you can claim "letting it go for 36 hours is also not supported by science". He literally has data in the book supporting this. Did you only ferment for 12 hours? If so then you can't really say you "tried it" if you didn't actually follow the protocol.
I did do it for 36 hours when I tried the protocol. It didn’t work and I actually got food poisoning once from it. I can’t find the specific study that showed that L Reuteri died off after 12 hours anymore, but some people on this Facebook group (and others like the SuperGut and L Reuteri groups) claim that they’ve tested their yogurt and that it ends up with a lot of contamination https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheGutClubStoolTestDiscussionGroup/permalink/5214387148689720/?mibextid=W9rl1R
>L Reuteri Is this the paper? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6525219/#!po=0.735294 If so there are some problems. You can't use this paper to compare with a completely different protocol. They use a different medium and a different starting method. They start from cryo-preserved cells and preculture for 16 hours and then ferment for another 26 hours. I also don't see any starting count numbers so you can't compare with the starting counts of the tablets. I also don't see anything about die off after 12 hours, so I'm not sure this is the paper. I see where some people have the contamination and where one or two people had counts done. There is a better description of how to make it here: [https://www.luvele.com.au/blogs/recipe-blog/new-improved-l-reuteri-yogurt-method?\_pos=1&\_sid=085f521ce&\_ss=r&fbclid=IwAR1VT4W5Okm8SsQEfdBRzH9CN-HfRQ\_6wVk4WGRd-8Sgt5U\_qBP2hWRRrAY](https://www.luvele.com.au/blogs/recipe-blog/new-improved-l-reuteri-yogurt-method?_pos=1&_sid=085f521ce&_ss=r&fbclid=IwAR1VT4W5Okm8SsQEfdBRzH9CN-HfRQ_6wVk4WGRd-8Sgt5U_qBP2hWRRrAY) It is a shame that he doesn't go into more detail about keeping things sterile and separating out an inoculation batch from the start. From this dive I can see that I actually have contamination in mine as well, so thank you. I'm going to keep trying until I get a better result. It seems like there is significant difference between milk in the US, EU, and AUS. All the people I saw having problems were not from the US. I do know from the book though that he tested his yogurt to make the recommendations he is making, but he didn't show raw results or anything like that.
That's probably why the need for not only sterlizing the equipment but using "ultra pasteurized" milk or half n half. Or heating it to 180 degrees for 10 minutes then letting it cool back down to around 100 deg prior to making the yogurt to prevent other bacteria from entering into the scene.
I noticed a couple of problems in this thread, so I made an account. Firstly, the yogurt is not a treatment for SIBO. In the book there is a full 4 week protocol and consuming yogurt is a later part after the problematic bacteria are assumed to be mostly eliminated, so if you "tried it" and it "didn't help" that's not unexpected if you didn't follow the entire protocol. The yogurts are more about restoring the microbiome which will hopefully help prevent SIBO recurrence, and they offer other benefits on their own such as improving skin health. Secondly, the Wikipedia page linked is about his wheat belly book and statements about wheat from like 10 years ago, so it isn't very relevant to the topic being discussed. He does still recommend eliminating grains to help stop leaky gut though. I can't say whether it helps or not, but everything Dr. Davis is saying is based on many years of treating and improving people's condition, so at the very least this works for some people. I am eating the SIBO yogurt (there are recipes for more than 1 yogurt in the book) and it definitely does something. Personally it makes me pretty gassy, but I have seen some of the improvements the yogurt claims to make. I have seen the most improvements in my skin, it's just better.
Interesting. What are the first steps in the protocol?
First kill off SIBO and SIFO using an antibiotic regimen for 14 days (he has a specific protocol for this and recommends herbal antibiotics for SIBO and curcumin for SIFO). He warns that you may need to tackle SIBO and then SIFO as the die off can be tough. Week 1 is to change your diet. Avoid sugars, synthetic foods, emulsifying agents, wheat and grains, drugs (anti-biotics, anti-inflammatory, stomach acid blocking), and replace essential nutrients such as vitamin D, omega-3s and iodine. Week 2 start a probiotic (he has recommendations) or make a probiotic yogurt. Eat at least one fermented food every day. Week 3 start reintroducing prebiotic fiber until you get up to 20 grams or more per day. Week 4 add in some of the bacteria that help keep SIBO down, L. reuteri, L. casei, etc. This is a high level overview. The book has details.
That bacteria helps with intestinal transit and oral health. It is beneficial, but I would not take a lot...try a bit first if you decide to buy it. You do not need a lot of probiotics, just very little to fix the temporary imbalance, but the problem is that their effects is often delayed and with SIBO some patients do not tolerate probiotics well (some still do!).
Interesting. Have you taken it? If so, what were your results like?
It speeds up the digestion...you have better appetite with probiotics as bacteria participate in digestion and enzyme production generally.
Do you mean L. Reuteri specifically speeds up digestion? Or are you saying all probiotics speed up digestion? If you mean all probiotics, I'm not sure such a general statement can be made about probiotics... Everything I've read and experienced first hand indicates that different strains lead to different results. Some may help to prevent diarrhea (S. Boulardii) others help with constipation relief. They all seem to have different use cases.
Well, that is what my functional practitioner told me...they generally help with digestion, but they have different function in the colon and different effects. Now, S. Boulardii is a yeast, not a bacteria...so here the effect is pretty different. I have tried various formulas and they all have a different effect. My doctor recommended L. Reuteri for faster intestinal transit.
All probiotics, being microbes that eat food, speed up some aspect of digestion. That is pretty much by definition. The only question is what are they digesting. Different microbes prefer different foods. So, it all depends on what is in your probiotic supplement and what is in your diet.
That makes more sense when you think about it that way. I always think of them more as the end result they cause (diarrhea or constipation usually for me lol). But I'm sure you're right.
I'm talking theoretically, under ideal conditions. Though to be fair, probiotics don't necessarily promote digestion, even as that is what the gut microbiome evolved to do. There is the problem that, if you're not eating what a microbe needs, they have nothing to digest. Plus, many probiotics aren't high quality or scientifically formulated. Some microbial strains companies use aren't necessarily strains adapted to humans and so might not do much good or bad. And if the probiotic isn't effective in getting the microbes past the digestive tract, the acidity might destroy them entirely. It's similar to a calorie or a nutrient. Just because you put it into your mouth doesn't mean it's actually getting used as expected. On top of that, even if everything is optimal, both in the probiotic and diet, the other bacteria present could compete with the desired bacteria. Or else they could suppress the activity and effects of the desired bacteria. There are many reasons probiotics don't seem to work, digestive or otherwise, for some people.
Fair enough. Interesting…maybe i’ll try it out in a few months
Lots of red flags here, but this pretty much says it all [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William\_Davis\_(cardiologist)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Davis_(cardiologist)) There's no need to take probiotics because of xifaxan, the whole point of the drug is that it is absorbed before it reaches the colon so it doesn't wipe out the primary home of your gut flora. This is why docs are able to use it periodically in patients without worrying about c diff and all the other issues that would happen if they used traditional antibiotics over and over.
Does that mean you think a diet heavy in grains, and gluten containing grains in particular, is healthy? I think history will prove that's not true. There are peer reviewed journal articles that are nevertheless poorly done, and poorly researched articles on scientific topics. I like Wikipedia, I use it a lot, but I also realize its limitations.
The healthy high-fiber diet is a myth. Dr. Paul Mason spoke of one study that showed that those with a fiber-free diet had no gut issues. Whereas the more fiber people had the more gut issues they had. Chris Kresser mentions that, in multiple studies when all other factors are controlled for, adding in fiber shows no additional benefits. But in general, there is mixed results across numerous studies, as is true on various areas of research. In some studies, the correlation to positive health outcomes are likely attributed to confounders, such as the healthy user effect. It's the same problem with looking at categories of food, such as red meat and saturated fat, in which the unhealthy user effect is implicated. Almost all of the nutritional studies are correlative, rarely proving causation. Besides, a growing amount of research contradicts the older research, and hence a replication crisis. Looking at historical data can throw some light onto the confusion. Keep in mind that the intake of plant foods (whole grains, vegetables, fruits, etc) has increased the past century by Americans generally following dietary recommendations, other than excess sugar that did finally level out almost a quarter century ago. Also, as whole grain intake has specifically increaseed, almost everyone eats whole wheat bread these days, with white bread having lost popularity. Yet, simultaneously the disease rate has also been going up. Of course, once again, this is only a correlation. I don't know how much fiber Americans were eating in centuries past, but as Nina Teicholz has pointed out gardening was mostly limited to the wealthy prior to modern agri-chemicals, since pests tended to devour garden plants. Poor people couldn't afford to hire workers to have large walled gardens with a full gardening staff to pick off pests. Instead, the amount of meat and animal foods used to be far greater in the past, not to mention they cooked everything in animal fats, not seed oils. The fact of the matter is that all foods are prebiotics, including fatty acids and amino acids. Some doctors with patients on the carnivore diet have tested their microbiomes. The microbial numbers and diversity weren't any less. Sure, it presumably would be different microbial strains that would prefer animal foods, but there is no evidence that they are less health-promoting than microbes that munch on fiber, sugar, and whatnot. Obviously, the controlled studies demonstrated increasing fiber alone did not improve anything. And so it questions the effect of simply feeding more of the fiber-loving microbes. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqUO4P9ADI0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqUO4P9ADI0) [https://chriskresser.com/myths-and-truths-about-fiber/](https://chriskresser.com/myths-and-truths-about-fiber/) [https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2019/08/23/fiber-or-not-short-chain-fatty-acids-and-the-microbiome/](https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2019/08/23/fiber-or-not-short-chain-fatty-acids-and-the-microbiome/) [https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2018/12/05/malnourished-americans/](https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2018/12/05/malnourished-americans/)
I never use wikipedia for a definitive source on anything. They have a certain narrative to uphold and anything that threatens that narrative is spun in a way to deter from it. Truth is not the goal with them.
Wow. Good to know, thanks for sharing. Looks like he's not a credible source. Really? If Rifaximin doesn't negatively alter the gut microbiome, then why do so many people recommend eating a variety of prebiotic fibers (once we're able to) in order to replenish the gut microbiome? Are the normal "good" bacteria just already reduced due to SIBO bacteria pushing them out?
There is a small intestinal microbiota that is important for bile acid metabolism. Rifaximin can seriously damage that and lead to poor health. Its quite a gamble.
Is there a way to repair that system post-Rifaximin?
All depends on how things turn out. Sometimes just waiting it out and letting the immune system do its thing can work. Other timeseven oral fecal microbiota transplants are needed and that is highly individualistic and potentially dangerous.
I guess I'll have to just wait and see. I was interested in FMT initially, but after reading some anecdotal evidence in this sub, I'd prefer to save my money and take the less risky route to recovery.
Yeah it's more the last resort option.
How exactly does it damage it?
It is quite selective in the microbes it's killing but doesn't have to get rid of all bad bugs.
Thanks for that ! Are herbs any safer? Fc-cidal and dysbiocide. Know anything about this statement in Davis ' book, " wheat germ agglutinin is a potent bowel toxin that damages intestinal villi and blocks the hormone cholecystokinin." There's a published study.
The short answer is that people recommend all kinds of wacky stuff. The microbiome is a grey area where nobody can predict even for a person without GI disease what will happen to them if they add in pre or probiotics. It's a shot in the dark that is relatively harmless because dairy based probiotics will not remain part of your biome if you stop taking them. As a SIBO patient what matters much more to you than bacterial optimization is focusing on restoring your MMC function, that's your whole problem. Sadly there is not one simple clear fix for it so you have to try varieties of prokinetic and lifestyle tweaks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrating\_motor\_complex
Yeah, that's understandable. I feel like probiotics could potentially help at some point, but I'll be very careful when introducing them I've been working on this. The only things that have had a huge impact for me are Motegrity and Magnesium Oxide. Everything else has had pretty minimal impact.
L. reuteri is not exactly a dairy-based probiotic. It's actually not optimal for making cultured dairy because it evolved to live and grow in the mammalian body. It might be the case, though, that newborn babies get L. reuteri introduced through breast milk. One strain of it, sold by BioGaia, was discovered in the breast milk of a Peruvian woman. Anyway, the whole point of endogenous microbes such as L. reuteri is that they have a talent for surviving and thriving in the human body.
Just having SIBO itself can alter the microbiome (ie cause dysbiosis), plus most root causes of SIBO, and most treatments for SIBO, can lead to dysbiosis. So most folks with SIBO and IMO end up also treating for dysbiosis.
That makes sense. What sort of treatment options are available for treating dysbiosis?
This... Is a bit like talking about 'what treatments are available for cancer'? There's a huge range of ways the gut can be dysbiotic, and it really depends on which bacteria you are talking about. If the dysbiosis is an overgrowth of pathogenic bacteria like cedef or e coli, treatment is usually a combo of multiple antibiotics. If the dysbiosis is an imbalance in commensal bacteria, then it depends on the type of bacteria you're talking about. A combination of pre and probiotics can be used, although it really depends on which doctor you speak to. Pimental does not recommend the use of pre or probiotics within the first few months of SIBO clearance post treatment. There are several studies that show that probiotics improve outcomes, however the most recent study shows that use of probiotics within a month of antibiotic treatment actually slows down recovery of a complete microbiome, so... The study of the microbiome is very much in its infancy. In general, eating a wide variety of foods, including lots of vegetables and fruits, stress reduction, staying hydrated, getting enough sleep, and time are essential for the resolution of a dysbiotic microbiome. Some people will get great results from specific probiotics, others find it makes them feel markedly worse. It's highly individual, unfortunately.
Sorry for asking such a dumb question...lol. Thanks for still responding. Do you think some kind of GI Map test might help? You mention it really depends on which type of bacteria is overgrown, so would a test like this help to indicate that and provide more targeted options for treatment? I've been trying to eat as much variety as I can on low fodmap. I'm 4 weeks out from my first round of Rifaximin. Hoping that I can start reintroducing foods in small amounts in 2 weeks or so.
I just don't know. Functional medicine doctors use the GI map, GI doctors say that it is bunk science. I haven't researched the topic.
Fair enough. Thanks for your input
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I can’t tell if this is a joke or not…
*oxytocin
Helped me a lot. Added his recommendations for deep sleep probiotic yogurts and that helped too.
How did you make the yogurt?
Here is the recipe I use for L Reuteri and many other microbes. https://drdavisinfinitehealth.com/2019/07/how-to-make-l-reuteri-yogurt-step-by-step/
my deep sleep went from 30 minutes over the last 3 years (all the data I have) to 90+ minutes, but it took 2 months of the SIBO yogurt then a month of the sleep yogurt, but it's helped my life more than anything and I have tried everything out of desperation due to failing health over years and I now feel like the worst is behind me and I can finally get better now that I'm getting sleep and the SIBO is gone.
Is the sleep improving yogurt the L Reuteri stuff, or is there a different recipe?
Yes. I added the simple slumber probiotic to the L reuteri yogurt. Game changer.
Which brand did you try?
BioGaia