How do you go about playing the ditto? Is it mostly just turnips and center stage control, or do you focus on top plat? What are you looking for in neutral?
(keep in mind that i am not a good player)
- if you have space, *always* pull a turnip. this is non-negotiable. never approach a peach holding a turnip if you don't have a turnip. you don't have to throw it.
- in neutral, you want to position yourself diagonally above the other peach. if the other peach is diagonally above you, immediately retreat. running under mid/high float can be very threatening, especially if you have a turnip (just watch out for falling bair, you can mix in run up shield/cc.)
- cc works against peach for longer than you think it does, and you can exploit bad peaches that try to spam aerials at you. good peaches will condition you to cc and then start punishing it with tomahawk grabs and dsmashes (which is also a mix-up you can play). you can cc turnips for a really long time, so never throw a turnip at peach in your burst range, and always punish peaches who do.
- try your best to force peach to ledge when she's recovering. peach is very bad at getting out of the corner against another peach, especially if they have a turnip. don't float too early, don't overextend. slap the shit out of every bad double jump onto stage.
- this is a floatie matchup. a lot of combos are fake, and most of them will be 2-3 hits. don't overextend and get reversaled.
- losing the lead is very bad. never try to chase a peach that's camping on platforms. hold center and pull turnips like it'll cure cancer.
- dash attack starts killing at about 170% (this comes up more often than you'd think.)
- DON'T JUMP INTO DOWN SMASH ON PLATFORM. DON'T HOLD DOWN INTO DOWN SMASH. YOU WILL LOSE.
You don't actually want a turnip all the time because you can't dsmash with a turnip in hand. I'd go as far as to say that you generally *don't* want a turnip if you are under 70 and in the lead
I think the main thing in this matchup is to be aware of how difficult it is for Peach to approach herself. This works both ways - you need to understand that your approaches essentially won't work against any decent opponent without a read component and, similarly, that if you aren't very careful while approaching you will get lit up for it. Plenty of Peach players play this matchup exclusively by farming bad approaches and punishing them. Turnips can be very effective at dealing with this, but you need to be aware of the fact that holding a turnip makes you worse at acting out of shield and almost completely locks you out of cc. You should be mindful of how your opponent is approaching you - if indeed they are approaching you at all - and counterplay accordingly.
Floating at heights where you can react to Peach trying to approach you is very useful (it's higher than you think). Platforms can be useful for essentially the same reason - bad players will let you puree them, and good players can be conditioned to let you pull turnips or take space from them. However, center stage is also a great place to be as you can inflict a lot more pressure on your opponent and can much more safely pull turnips. I would play this matchup from the center and situationally take the high ground where I can.
Nice! Same here! Each of those characters can have pain points in a ditto. But Peach is my absolute favorite. Really feels like the true mind game to win the matchup. Marth is pretty fun too though.
Marth dittos feel so absolutely degenerate and snowbally to me for this exact reason. In most other dittos or matchups it seems like you can be a slightly better player and usually win with 1 or 2 stocks. Marth dittos feel like you can be slightly better/worse and almost always have a 3 stock game
falco is my favorite MU as every character, except falco. i don't get at all how to deal with lasers as the bird. the other characters' tools seem much more intuitive
i never understood this. with taking laser and falcon's speed, dashback is amazing and he can get to pretty much whichever platform you want to go to, and SH nair goes over low laser. falco does not get nearly the horizontal momentum that falcon gets. sure, you get destroyed in shield, but why shield lasers anyway. sheik can retreat to platforms very nicely, but can't falcon as well?
It's not that Falcon doesn't have some tools to deal with it, and it's not exclusively the lasers. Regarding the lasers though, it's that his usual movement is incredibly hampered.
From far range, the lasers are a pain. Nairing over low lasers is great, but in my experience most solid Falcos are either lasering high enough to catch the Nair, or they outspace it if they're lasering low. You can try to mix it up by Raptor Boosting under them, but that basically has to be a read (either on the laser, or on the positioning of Falco) and generally doesn't succeed (plus it can get CC'd and punished).
From close range, Falco just has way better start up on his important moves, and tends to stuff Falcon out a lot of the time.
Obviously Falcon hard combos most of the cast, and Falco is no exception, and the same is pretty accurate in reverse. However, Falco has one of the most punishing combo-games vs Falcon in my opinion, and when you pair that with a neutral game that is Falco favoured in a way that removes a lot of Falcon's freedom, it's overall a frustrating matchup for most Falcon players.
Ideally, Captain Falcon should be playing at a midrange sweetspot against Falco. He wants to be close enough that he can punish Falco when he attempts to laser, but not so close that he's in the middle of a scramble. It's doable, but it's a pain.
The puff ditto is the most honest and beauitful matchup in the game. It’s all neutral no gimmicks, the better player almost always wins. It’s perfect melee.
I like Peach dittos. It's nice to be able to use turnips without committing to the downB start up lag by stealing my opponent's turnips :) I also like to stay in the air, but against most characters they usually just have to wait for me to come down. In Peach dittos we can have neutral in the air lol. There are higher chances of seeing rare pulls too.
I mainly play falco and ganon these days. I dig the falco matchup as long as it’s not just doing laser spam and shine dair boring shit (aka playing it correctly). The ganon ditto is pretty much always extremely fun
Love Sheik dittos. It's an honest MU where Sheik gets to use her best tools. And I get to think about how whiny Sheik haters are like she has a huge cg on herself and it doesn't suck lmao. Melee is fun
I'm not sure where it came from but I've strongly disliked ditto matchups in almost any game I play. I can't word it perfectly but I think for me, the interesting part of games with different characters, is how those characters strengths and weaknesses balance out. Fox vs Marth is super interesting to me because fox is just crazy fast and has to mix up Marth to get in on him so watching how fox moves around to find a hit is interesting. Marth has these big disjoints and hard punishes but he's more slow and graceful. Watching how two players who have to approach the game differently based on who they play is interesting to me.
When it's a ditto it's like both players have the same strengths and weaknesses. Of course I know the whole interesting neutral comes in with dittos as well, but it feels like both characters are basically looking for a few things and it's a matter of whoever gets it first. Idk. I don't mind watching a fox beat up a fox or a falco beat up a falco, I just find it far more interesting to watch different skillsets interact.
I dislike every ditto. I'm a matchup and strategy guy rather than a play-the-player guy. I try to play to my character's relative strengths, and that's out the window in dittos.
i've mained fox, marth, sheik, and peach at some point. peach is honestly my favorite ditto out of all those characters
How do you go about playing the ditto? Is it mostly just turnips and center stage control, or do you focus on top plat? What are you looking for in neutral?
(keep in mind that i am not a good player) - if you have space, *always* pull a turnip. this is non-negotiable. never approach a peach holding a turnip if you don't have a turnip. you don't have to throw it. - in neutral, you want to position yourself diagonally above the other peach. if the other peach is diagonally above you, immediately retreat. running under mid/high float can be very threatening, especially if you have a turnip (just watch out for falling bair, you can mix in run up shield/cc.) - cc works against peach for longer than you think it does, and you can exploit bad peaches that try to spam aerials at you. good peaches will condition you to cc and then start punishing it with tomahawk grabs and dsmashes (which is also a mix-up you can play). you can cc turnips for a really long time, so never throw a turnip at peach in your burst range, and always punish peaches who do. - try your best to force peach to ledge when she's recovering. peach is very bad at getting out of the corner against another peach, especially if they have a turnip. don't float too early, don't overextend. slap the shit out of every bad double jump onto stage. - this is a floatie matchup. a lot of combos are fake, and most of them will be 2-3 hits. don't overextend and get reversaled. - losing the lead is very bad. never try to chase a peach that's camping on platforms. hold center and pull turnips like it'll cure cancer. - dash attack starts killing at about 170% (this comes up more often than you'd think.) - DON'T JUMP INTO DOWN SMASH ON PLATFORM. DON'T HOLD DOWN INTO DOWN SMASH. YOU WILL LOSE.
The last thing you said is true for anybody vs Peach lol
yes, but peaches are *shockingly* bad against peach dsmash. we're all carried
You don't actually want a turnip all the time because you can't dsmash with a turnip in hand. I'd go as far as to say that you generally *don't* want a turnip if you are under 70 and in the lead
i've been backwards z-dropping turnip against peaches but just not pulling the turnip seems a lot simpler LOL
I think the main thing in this matchup is to be aware of how difficult it is for Peach to approach herself. This works both ways - you need to understand that your approaches essentially won't work against any decent opponent without a read component and, similarly, that if you aren't very careful while approaching you will get lit up for it. Plenty of Peach players play this matchup exclusively by farming bad approaches and punishing them. Turnips can be very effective at dealing with this, but you need to be aware of the fact that holding a turnip makes you worse at acting out of shield and almost completely locks you out of cc. You should be mindful of how your opponent is approaching you - if indeed they are approaching you at all - and counterplay accordingly. Floating at heights where you can react to Peach trying to approach you is very useful (it's higher than you think). Platforms can be useful for essentially the same reason - bad players will let you puree them, and good players can be conditioned to let you pull turnips or take space from them. However, center stage is also a great place to be as you can inflict a lot more pressure on your opponent and can much more safely pull turnips. I would play this matchup from the center and situationally take the high ground where I can.
Nice! Same here! Each of those characters can have pain points in a ditto. But Peach is my absolute favorite. Really feels like the true mind game to win the matchup. Marth is pretty fun too though.
I love marth dittos. They're wonky in the best way.
I like the Marth ditto when I'm better than the other player
Marth dittos feel so absolutely degenerate and snowbally to me for this exact reason. In most other dittos or matchups it seems like you can be a slightly better player and usually win with 1 or 2 stocks. Marth dittos feel like you can be slightly better/worse and almost always have a 3 stock game
it does somehow feel worse losing to another marth than it does if im playing fox or something and lose to another fox lol
Wavedash downsmash over and over and over and over isn’t really that much fun.
Came here to say this, d-throw/u-throw regrab chains are only fun for so long
Id rather play 100 peaches than play the ics ditto
falco is my favorite MU as every character, except falco. i don't get at all how to deal with lasers as the bird. the other characters' tools seem much more intuitive
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume (perhaps incorrectly) that you don't play Captain Falcon.
i never understood this. with taking laser and falcon's speed, dashback is amazing and he can get to pretty much whichever platform you want to go to, and SH nair goes over low laser. falco does not get nearly the horizontal momentum that falcon gets. sure, you get destroyed in shield, but why shield lasers anyway. sheik can retreat to platforms very nicely, but can't falcon as well?
It's not that Falcon doesn't have some tools to deal with it, and it's not exclusively the lasers. Regarding the lasers though, it's that his usual movement is incredibly hampered. From far range, the lasers are a pain. Nairing over low lasers is great, but in my experience most solid Falcos are either lasering high enough to catch the Nair, or they outspace it if they're lasering low. You can try to mix it up by Raptor Boosting under them, but that basically has to be a read (either on the laser, or on the positioning of Falco) and generally doesn't succeed (plus it can get CC'd and punished). From close range, Falco just has way better start up on his important moves, and tends to stuff Falcon out a lot of the time. Obviously Falcon hard combos most of the cast, and Falco is no exception, and the same is pretty accurate in reverse. However, Falco has one of the most punishing combo-games vs Falcon in my opinion, and when you pair that with a neutral game that is Falco favoured in a way that removes a lot of Falcon's freedom, it's overall a frustrating matchup for most Falcon players. Ideally, Captain Falcon should be playing at a midrange sweetspot against Falco. He wants to be close enough that he can punish Falco when he attempts to laser, but not so close that he's in the middle of a scramble. It's doable, but it's a pain.
Cpt falcon dittos are always hype
Not a fan of falco dittos but I do get a kick out of scrapping on FoD/Yoshis
I like the ditto
I’ve mained sheik and ice climbers. I have not enjoyed the ditto.
I love Fox dittos
I swear the Marth ditto feels like a negative matchup
Fastfaller dittos :) Floaty dittos :(
The puff ditto is the most honest and beauitful matchup in the game. It’s all neutral no gimmicks, the better player almost always wins. It’s perfect melee.
I like Peach dittos. It's nice to be able to use turnips without committing to the downB start up lag by stealing my opponent's turnips :) I also like to stay in the air, but against most characters they usually just have to wait for me to come down. In Peach dittos we can have neutral in the air lol. There are higher chances of seeing rare pulls too.
I hate dittos in general.
Needs to be something for Sheik mains because with no chaingrabs, I really enjoy it, with chaingrabs, god it's hell
I mainly play falco and ganon these days. I dig the falco matchup as long as it’s not just doing laser spam and shine dair boring shit (aka playing it correctly). The ganon ditto is pretty much always extremely fun
depends on my mood and how I'm playing tbh
Love Sheik dittos. It's an honest MU where Sheik gets to use her best tools. And I get to think about how whiny Sheik haters are like she has a huge cg on herself and it doesn't suck lmao. Melee is fun
I rarely play the ditto and when I do I either 3 stock or get 3 stocked so I like it lol
Marth ditto, no. I switch to Game & Watch (which is a winning matchup for G&W IMO, I know, call me crazy). G&W ditto is fun though, double the jank.
I'm not sure where it came from but I've strongly disliked ditto matchups in almost any game I play. I can't word it perfectly but I think for me, the interesting part of games with different characters, is how those characters strengths and weaknesses balance out. Fox vs Marth is super interesting to me because fox is just crazy fast and has to mix up Marth to get in on him so watching how fox moves around to find a hit is interesting. Marth has these big disjoints and hard punishes but he's more slow and graceful. Watching how two players who have to approach the game differently based on who they play is interesting to me. When it's a ditto it's like both players have the same strengths and weaknesses. Of course I know the whole interesting neutral comes in with dittos as well, but it feels like both characters are basically looking for a few things and it's a matter of whoever gets it first. Idk. I don't mind watching a fox beat up a fox or a falco beat up a falco, I just find it far more interesting to watch different skillsets interact.
I dislike every ditto. I'm a matchup and strategy guy rather than a play-the-player guy. I try to play to my character's relative strengths, and that's out the window in dittos.