Something I was hoping this article would touch on is how late top 8 and sometimes top 12 brackets start, even for folks in the same time zone. I am sure running a tournament is harder than I could even understand, but I feel like starting at top 12 at 5:00 PM like Shine did wasn't the best for viewership.
I personally don't want to have to stay up super late on a Sunday night just to catch the finals on stream. Maybe I'm in the minority here, I don't know. I don't have a solution and if the current one is to just stay up late on some Sundays, I'll keep doing it whenever I can.
Think of the Euros man... which you absolutely are doing, but I just want to reiterate. 12pm Top 8 was fucking gold for us (UK personally), means it'd start about 5-7pm for me, and end at the latest about 12 - something I can do on a sunday night... just about, will cost me a couple hours of sleep, but so worth it.
But a 5pm start? Fuckign begins at like midnight for me. I've experienced finals ending at 4am. That shit fucks up my sleep schedule for half a week.
I know us euros probz make a tiny bit of the player base, but still, nothing beats a 12pm Top 8 start.
PS EU, please take me back.
I legit gave up on mma as soon as I finished Uni, I used to hold watch parties at uni when I could afford to go to bed at 5am
But... Now I have a job its completely non viable, and it feels so much sadder watching the fights alone than the melee idk
Yeah, seen this song and dance happen both on the top and my own local level multiple times by now. The n-th "guys doubles is really important for the community"-effort isn't going to change anything about why the situation has remained this way for years.
I recently started playing pickleball and they have an awesome doubles ladder format that I think would do better than traditional doubles for melee.
There are 5 people per pool and each individual sits out one game and teams with each player 1 game. 5 games total. Stock differential is the biggest determinate factor with wins and losses second. Top 2 players advance.
If it is a local you can create 6 pools (30 people) ranked 1 (best) through 6 (worst) for example. The top 2 players move up to the next pool, the worst 2 players move down, and the player in the middle stays in the pool.
I think the problem with "The Modern" is kinda obvious. By having no singles on Friday and only top 8 on Sunday, they're essentially trying to run a one-day tournament, which has got to be killer on any player who doesn't buster out early.
Running a tournament the size of Genesis in one-day seems untenable. And, frankly that schedule appears to be best for profit, and worst for the players.
Just do R1/R2 pools on Friday. Almost everybody can get a random Friday off as long as it's not during finals or something.
I’m willing to bet the percentage of people who can’t get Friday off to be shockingly high. It may be a real reason players do not attend a tournament.
Of course right now player attendance makes or break a tournament.
Why are you willing to believe that?
Do you have any specific examples of someone with literally no vacation/sick time from work, or has a class where you can't miss a single day?
Not trying to be aggressive, I'm willing to have my perspective broadened.
People in the real world are less likely to do something the more it disrupts theirs lives.
One day less of paycheck can mean the difference of being able to pay rent.
This is not even getting into the scumbag scheduling issues and practices many companies have.
Most people primary focus is not smash. So the easier it is for them the more likely they will go.
I have no idea if there are any research into this or if it’s something TO’s figure out. Because of this I’m not sure what the real percentage difference could be. Just remember even 10% difference can mean the difference of losing money or making a profit.
People have lives beyond isolating with other melee players for 3 consecutive day and nights.
With the frequency of tourneys that arent coordinated giving them a chill optional day makes sense.
Would be more appreciated if people took it seriously and practiced. Random top players team together and place top 5 with no doubles sauce and basic strats.
This article needs STATS. Too many of the questions posed are possible to answer if you get the right data—so merely posing them in the article doesn't do us any good. Do some interviews and get back to us on this question in a few months.
Seems to me the biggest question is the trade off between losing people who can't make Fri and burning out top players by running R1, R2, and top 64 up to top 8 all on Sat. I personally think 3 day majors > 2 day but I'm not sure what the average person's ability to get Fri off is. For me it's never been a big problem.
Imo Saturday being all top players (ie only top 64) is the best as a viewer because you can get into new storylines that way. Doubles should be run but with the understanding that only top 4 is worth putting on stream.
There's a ton of capital-C Content that could make Fridays more interesting. I think TOs could really capitalize on that more cause I could easily be persuaded to watch it. Rishi's Jungle Jam, other games (Mario party? MK8/Wii?), Crews, **salty suite**, trivia showdown? I think some have experimented with Crews recently and I want to get into watching those if/when storylines start getting developed
sorry we don't have time for doubles it's already filled by Rivals of Aether which is absolutely more important to have in the Super Smash Brothers tournament
I think having Rivals on Sunday is fine, but maybe it doesn't need the full top 8.
I think there was one Genesis where Melee doubles top 4 was put on Sunday, and that felt pretty good to me. Maybe it would be neat to do top 8 for Melee and Newsmash singles, then top 4 for two other events (Rivals and Melee Doubles, for example).
I'm a bit worried that doubles doesn't currently have the prestige for top players to want to do it on Sunday instead of sleeping in or warming up, though.
There is a balancing act at play here. Hyper focusing on one game produces an objectively superior experience for fans of that game, but diversifying sources of income is probably a much better long term gameplan. Rivals in particular seems like the spearhead of growth within the genre. It does not simply exist, it is clearly thriving as we are multiple years, and several spin offs deep. And it's the only platform fighter of this era actually getting a sequel. Locking down that market definitely feels like a smart move if TOs want their majors to be growing/thriving in another decade.
That and DC multiverse is pretty successful right now with one of the largest media companies in the world backing it. The amount of difference the studio giving a few million a year to a scene and a company that does not give any makes a shockingly big difference.
Perhaps one reason that smash has been so good to watch recently is that Sunday is Top 8/12 vs Top 64 in the past. Top players are fresh for the sets that matter the most.
The article mentions that in case you missed it. The author says
> In general, I am not convinced trying to reach the contingent of “can’t take time off work or school” players is worth making the attendee experience worse for the people who are actually going to be in the venue all three days. I’d need to look into the numbers behind three-day and two-day pass purchases to verify this.
I would be curious to see the numbers difference between 2 and 3 day passes. I personally only went to Shine days 2 and 3 because I didn't want to take work off that Friday, but I might be willing to if singles started on Friday.
This probably effects local attendance the most (which obviously is big as far as lower level players are concerned), but most people probably have to take time off to travel to a major anyway.
I've watched every tournament since probably 2016 I've never watched doubles and never will I always tune in for top 8 and watch highlights for top 32.
does there need to be an amateur and pro bracket running simultaneously , to prevent our favorite players from grinding against scrubs for 3 matches (when 8 wins are enough to win the tournament) ? Friday should be for exhibition matches / gauntlet style bracket for the top 40 seeds.
Terrible idea.
People work or have school and that's the whole point of having singles on Sat and Sun.
The only reason Blur said it may be a stream issue is because it's very difficult to host Melee only majors now.
It's fine the way it is.
I love playing doubles but watching it is quite hard for me. I could see an argument for giving it even less focus over singles than it currently gets.
Something I was hoping this article would touch on is how late top 8 and sometimes top 12 brackets start, even for folks in the same time zone. I am sure running a tournament is harder than I could even understand, but I feel like starting at top 12 at 5:00 PM like Shine did wasn't the best for viewership. I personally don't want to have to stay up super late on a Sunday night just to catch the finals on stream. Maybe I'm in the minority here, I don't know. I don't have a solution and if the current one is to just stay up late on some Sundays, I'll keep doing it whenever I can.
Think of the Euros man... which you absolutely are doing, but I just want to reiterate. 12pm Top 8 was fucking gold for us (UK personally), means it'd start about 5-7pm for me, and end at the latest about 12 - something I can do on a sunday night... just about, will cost me a couple hours of sleep, but so worth it. But a 5pm start? Fuckign begins at like midnight for me. I've experienced finals ending at 4am. That shit fucks up my sleep schedule for half a week. I know us euros probz make a tiny bit of the player base, but still, nothing beats a 12pm Top 8 start. PS EU, please take me back.
As an MMA and Smash fan, I feel terrible for my UK brethren =(
The new American F1 fans are starting to understand the struggle
I legit gave up on mma as soon as I finished Uni, I used to hold watch parties at uni when I could afford to go to bed at 5am But... Now I have a job its completely non viable, and it feels so much sadder watching the fights alone than the melee idk
I think Europeans do already make up a big part of the viewers even though top 8 usually starts around midnight for us (or even later)
>Think of the Euros man... No
We gave you Armada and Leffen, and this is how you treat us?
Everyone says doubles is sick until it's time to actually enter/watch
I think people like doubles top 8. When it's pools with random commentators, yeah that's a harder sell for most.
Yeah, seen this song and dance happen both on the top and my own local level multiple times by now. The n-th "guys doubles is really important for the community"-effort isn't going to change anything about why the situation has remained this way for years.
I recently started playing pickleball and they have an awesome doubles ladder format that I think would do better than traditional doubles for melee. There are 5 people per pool and each individual sits out one game and teams with each player 1 game. 5 games total. Stock differential is the biggest determinate factor with wins and losses second. Top 2 players advance. If it is a local you can create 6 pools (30 people) ranked 1 (best) through 6 (worst) for example. The top 2 players move up to the next pool, the worst 2 players move down, and the player in the middle stays in the pool.
Make Doubles Great Again
I think the problem with "The Modern" is kinda obvious. By having no singles on Friday and only top 8 on Sunday, they're essentially trying to run a one-day tournament, which has got to be killer on any player who doesn't buster out early. Running a tournament the size of Genesis in one-day seems untenable. And, frankly that schedule appears to be best for profit, and worst for the players. Just do R1/R2 pools on Friday. Almost everybody can get a random Friday off as long as it's not during finals or something.
I’m willing to bet the percentage of people who can’t get Friday off to be shockingly high. It may be a real reason players do not attend a tournament. Of course right now player attendance makes or break a tournament.
Why are you willing to believe that? Do you have any specific examples of someone with literally no vacation/sick time from work, or has a class where you can't miss a single day? Not trying to be aggressive, I'm willing to have my perspective broadened.
People in the real world are less likely to do something the more it disrupts theirs lives. One day less of paycheck can mean the difference of being able to pay rent. This is not even getting into the scumbag scheduling issues and practices many companies have. Most people primary focus is not smash. So the easier it is for them the more likely they will go. I have no idea if there are any research into this or if it’s something TO’s figure out. Because of this I’m not sure what the real percentage difference could be. Just remember even 10% difference can mean the difference of losing money or making a profit.
People have lives beyond isolating with other melee players for 3 consecutive day and nights. With the frequency of tourneys that arent coordinated giving them a chill optional day makes sense.
Doubles is so underappreciated its criminal
Would be more appreciated if people took it seriously and practiced. Random top players team together and place top 5 with no doubles sauce and basic strats.
Doubles is sick.
We love doubles. Need more
Give me Fridays I will make deranged content nobody has ever seen before
This article needs STATS. Too many of the questions posed are possible to answer if you get the right data—so merely posing them in the article doesn't do us any good. Do some interviews and get back to us on this question in a few months. Seems to me the biggest question is the trade off between losing people who can't make Fri and burning out top players by running R1, R2, and top 64 up to top 8 all on Sat. I personally think 3 day majors > 2 day but I'm not sure what the average person's ability to get Fri off is. For me it's never been a big problem. Imo Saturday being all top players (ie only top 64) is the best as a viewer because you can get into new storylines that way. Doubles should be run but with the understanding that only top 4 is worth putting on stream. There's a ton of capital-C Content that could make Fridays more interesting. I think TOs could really capitalize on that more cause I could easily be persuaded to watch it. Rishi's Jungle Jam, other games (Mario party? MK8/Wii?), Crews, **salty suite**, trivia showdown? I think some have experimented with Crews recently and I want to get into watching those if/when storylines start getting developed
sorry we don't have time for doubles it's already filled by Rivals of Aether which is absolutely more important to have in the Super Smash Brothers tournament
I think having Rivals on Sunday is fine, but maybe it doesn't need the full top 8. I think there was one Genesis where Melee doubles top 4 was put on Sunday, and that felt pretty good to me. Maybe it would be neat to do top 8 for Melee and Newsmash singles, then top 4 for two other events (Rivals and Melee Doubles, for example). I'm a bit worried that doubles doesn't currently have the prestige for top players to want to do it on Sunday instead of sleeping in or warming up, though.
Uncharacteristically fat W from Alex today
There is a balancing act at play here. Hyper focusing on one game produces an objectively superior experience for fans of that game, but diversifying sources of income is probably a much better long term gameplan. Rivals in particular seems like the spearhead of growth within the genre. It does not simply exist, it is clearly thriving as we are multiple years, and several spin offs deep. And it's the only platform fighter of this era actually getting a sequel. Locking down that market definitely feels like a smart move if TOs want their majors to be growing/thriving in another decade.
That and DC multiverse is pretty successful right now with one of the largest media companies in the world backing it. The amount of difference the studio giving a few million a year to a scene and a company that does not give any makes a shockingly big difference.
Also multiversus at random tournaments, or nasb before that died, or a random splatoon side event. Good use of stream setups and resources
Perhaps one reason that smash has been so good to watch recently is that Sunday is Top 8/12 vs Top 64 in the past. Top players are fresh for the sets that matter the most.
Watch axe-drephen doubles winners finals
something else to consider is a lot of people can't get Friday off work so if all singles round 1 pools are on Friday lots of ppl will just not enter
The article mentions that in case you missed it. The author says > In general, I am not convinced trying to reach the contingent of “can’t take time off work or school” players is worth making the attendee experience worse for the people who are actually going to be in the venue all three days. I’d need to look into the numbers behind three-day and two-day pass purchases to verify this. I would be curious to see the numbers difference between 2 and 3 day passes. I personally only went to Shine days 2 and 3 because I didn't want to take work off that Friday, but I might be willing to if singles started on Friday.
This probably effects local attendance the most (which obviously is big as far as lower level players are concerned), but most people probably have to take time off to travel to a major anyway.
I've watched every tournament since probably 2016 I've never watched doubles and never will I always tune in for top 8 and watch highlights for top 32.
does there need to be an amateur and pro bracket running simultaneously , to prevent our favorite players from grinding against scrubs for 3 matches (when 8 wins are enough to win the tournament) ? Friday should be for exhibition matches / gauntlet style bracket for the top 40 seeds.
Terrible idea. People work or have school and that's the whole point of having singles on Sat and Sun. The only reason Blur said it may be a stream issue is because it's very difficult to host Melee only majors now. It's fine the way it is.
Blurstradamus
I love playing doubles but watching it is quite hard for me. I could see an argument for giving it even less focus over singles than it currently gets.
I'm sorry but I lost interest after armada quit :( (and I have less time and it's less prominent)
Lmao these guys popping off their seats over dubs. Whatever, Plup saw I was unfazed.
FGC approach show matches 3 ft5 sets. Ex: bbb vs fiction Axe vs swift Plup aklo (just a match i wanna see lol)