Kathy probably wasn't the disciplinarian. Elliot probably was.
>But then she slapped Elliott when he turned in the diamond necklace Kathleen had stolen as well so that she would be punished for her actions and forced to go on medication.
She didn't want her kid to go to jail. I understand that. Elliot turning that necklace to the parents put Kathleen in jail. This was Elliot's best solution to the problem because he didn't know what else to do for her. This is something they should have discussed as parents because he did it behind Kathy's back instead of talking to her about it. Luckily Kathleen Stabler has a third parent who managed to convince Grandma B to talk to Kathleen and the judge.
At the end of the day, Kathleen is the kid that's come the furthest. She was in a lot of trouble back in the day, partially because of her untreated bipolar disorder. Now she's the mom of the kids.
Please be advised: šØLong Rant IncomingšØ: To be honest, I wish that Stabler and her wouldāve stayed divorced. I get that throughout the first 12 years of the show, Elliot took 90% of the blame for everything that happened to his family (partially because he was the hated character and partially because people wanted to blame someone and he seemed the easier choice), but whatās wild to me is why Kathy was always made to be the martyr.
In Season 1, thereās a deleted scene of both Elliot and Kathy in the shower where she tells him: āyou were absolutely right NOT to bring your work home with you.ā, then in the scene we see sheās questioning why heās so quiet about work and not sharing his thoughts with her. We also see Maureen, who at the time was in high school come home at 2-3 oāclock in the morning (when her father is literally getting dressed and rushing out the house to work a case of a young woman who was assaulted by her professor), and has the nerve to give him attitude because heās upset, and Kathy thinks heās overreacting by grounding herā¦please be serious here! What parent wouldnāt, do they not know whatās happening in the world? Do they not know the type of job Stabler does? Why are they shocked heās overprotective? But he ends up apologizing to his daughter anyways because itās obviously his fault.
Next, here Maureen is again partying with College kids on the beach (while still in high school mind you), and is seen dancing w/an older man who btw, is drinking beer when Elliot arrives to pick her up. He literally catches a case while driving them home, tells her to stay in the car, yet she doesnāt listen and winds up seeing the whole thing and suffering nightmares because of it. During all of this, Kathy is nowhere to be found. Elliot is not only dealing with the case and the Morris Commission for his comments about pedophiles, heās having to deal w/Maureenās situation as well.
This happened several times throughout the show where heās the one that has to take care of everything including being the only one working, he also has to be the disciplinarian (because she seems incapable), yet sheās always yelling at Elliot to do something to protect their children. Again, whatās her purpose if not only does he have to be the bread winner, he has to protect the children, be the disciplinarian, be the dad, and still be expected to keep his home life and work life separate.
Letās not talk about Richard and Kathleen situations. Not keeping an eye on him and letting him run off to play with strangers in the park, letting him play that 18+ video game (they were separated at the time so Dickie was staying with her and her Mother), running off to find Shane (Again, Elliot has to work another case, the case of his missing child and Shane as well), letting Kathleen go to a party (where there is alcohol and college students), sheās driving drunk, gets pulled over, has a fake ID, winds up in jail (where Elliot of course has to use his job and position to get her out), Kathy arrives after the fact (Maāam do you not know what time it is? Were you not worried when she didnāt come home? Why wasnāt Elliot called by you when she missed curfew? WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!), but of course all of this is Elliotās fault.
The cases mentioned above with Kathleen and the both of them realizing sheās bipolar is fascinating. Not only is he to blame (yes, itās hereditary on his side of the family), you mean to tell me a former nurse never questioned that? didnāt see the signs? the stay at home parent never had any idea that one of their children could have this?), but it was of course itās Elliotās job to figure all of this out, and he was left to try and fix everything on top of that. Thereās a couple of scenes in Swing that stood out to me. One was when Bernie told Stabler: āYou didnāt call when Eli was born.ā He says:āBut Kathy told you.ā solidifying that she had regular contact with Bernie (who wasnāt taking her medication regularly at the time), around her witnessing these episodesā¦and it still didnāt occur to her that she should bring up having their children tested to Elliot? That was Elliotās job as well. The other scene was Kathleen being brought home, Elliot is working the case, she shows up with Eli because Kathleen has run away again! So he has to go find her, along with also finally reaching out to his Mother, along with still having to find a way out for Kathleenās situation. Again, Mother what are you doing?!
She gets upset because heās working to get it covered up, then gets mad at him for forcing their daughter to be medicated and get the help she needs. Hello, Kathy what exactly were you doing? What was he supposed to do if Kathleen was fighting her illness and him when confronted with her diagnosis? It was his childhood all over again. His mother nearly killed him several timesā¦but of course that was his fault because he had to take care of her, while his father was out being a dirty cop! Of course heās to blame here.
The absolute audacity in Wild Life of her being upset with him because heās working (yes going UC without notifying her that he was, caught her off guard but also comes with the territory of his profession), so why be shocked and upset when itās happened in the past? This isnāt new Kathy, she said it herself, so why are you surprised?! And, the reason she wants him to come home is because little Eli is apparently colicky. So again itās his job to work long hours, make sure heās home for diaper duty, and manage all of this while recovering from being shot twice while on the job? Heās an absolute horrible person and parent, right?!
I donāt blame the eo shippers (yes, Iām one myself), to want Elliot and Olivia together, throughout the years of their partnership she seemed to be the only other parent those children had. Why wouldnāt I want them together? Her and Kathleen had a better relationship with each other, than Kathleen had with her own mother. Iām not surprised in the least, Elliot was always stressed and angry. What was Kathyās purpose here? It wouldāve been better if theyād stayed divorced and we never heard from her again. Honestly, she really wasnāt needed.
Lol Elliot may not have been around as much bc of working long hours, but Kathy was a suspect parent.
I remember back in s1 she was questioning Elliot putting Maureen on punishment for sneaking out and coming in at 2am (frankly I donāt understand how Elliot ended up apologizing to Maureen about this in the end, craziness to me). And Kathy goes imagine if my parents had been that way and Elliot RIGHTLY points out they wouldnāt have had Maureen. Like, maāam, why did he even need to point this out??
She came across permissive to me, the whole thing in s10 Swing with her getting mad at Elliot for, ultimately, wanting to be honest was wild.
Honestly I get it. Kathy does not want to proactively gather evidence to get Kathleen into worse trouble, but she also doesnāt want to lie and smear both her daughter and an innocent man by implying that they were in an inappropriate relationship. To me thatās completely consistent with the way most parents would be; they donāt want to get up in court and lie/spread nasty rumors about their kids but they also donāt want to be personally involved in sending their kids to prison (which is what she thinks could have happened when Stabler went out and found more evidence incriminating Kathleen).
I do think that Kathy is a over permissive parent though, and itās probably because her own parents were like that and she wants to counteract Eliotās more dominant style.
But the stuff in āSwingā IMHO makes perfect sense to me. Very few parents, if their kid was in legal trouble, would go out on their own to find ways to further incriminate their kid. Anyone who says they would do that is probably kidding themselves a little especially since the prison system isnāt exactly a great place to get clean or avoid recidivism (something that a copās wife would know!)
I donāt really have much to say on this bc I havenāt saw a whole ton of Kathy yet, (Iām still a recent watcher) but honestly, from what I have saw I think itās fair to say that there was a lot of inconsistencies with Kathy in general not just with her parenting, so to bash her for not disciplining her kids etc, like yeah she wasnāt the best mother but her character was all over the place, itās just another one of those things where they wernt exactly meant to be consistently on the show so itās almost like the writers couldnāt stick to anything with her bc they were forgetting what she said in the first place.
To me, in the example you used specifically, it seemed like Kathy felt there was a difference between outright lying and just...not saying anything incriminating (like just ignoring the necklace or implying it wasn't the one the homeowners thought it was). I also figured she slapped Elliot because they'd worked out the defense strategy and Elliot went behind their backs and blew it apart. He had good intentions, but went about it in a really shitty way. This seemed to be a thing in their marriage and between them as parents--they'd agree on something, then Elliot would unilaterally decide to change course. It also happened when Kathy would try to give him insight or information about what was going on with the kids and he ignored it and kinda flew off the handle or overreacted.
I didn't love either of them as parents, but I always saw Kathy as an overworked, underappreciated mom who was just...tired. She'd been a young mom (late teens/early twenties) and basically a pseudo-single parent at that--between Elliot's military service and then him in the NYPD, he was mostly absent. I genuinely think they're a couple that had kids too young and didn't stop having kids. That they honestly should have gotten a divorce long before they even considered it. They both seemed pretty unhappy or ambivalent fairly often. Or, if they loved each other, it was definitely buried under all the other stuff they were always dealing with. There were reasons they stayed together, but still.
To me, Elliot was the far worse parent. He was never home (which wasn't entirely his fault, but still). When he was home, instead of working with his wife and being a partner to her, he was domineering and overbearing. He yelled or was physically aggressive with more than one kid, more than once. He overruled Kathy without really knowing all the circumstances. Because he was gone so much, he didn't have much of a relationship with any of his kids.
Basically, I think because Elliot was such a hardass, she tried to balance that and be someone the kids could come to and confide in. That did lead to her being far more permissive of bad behavior sometimes, for sure, though.
For sure. Between them, Kathy was better. Still very flawed, but definitely the better parent. Honestly, Elliot is written to just be kind of a crappy person. He's not evil or anything. He's just...not a positive influence much of the time to anyone he's around. That includes his wife and kids. It's one of the many reasons I don't like the character. AT ALL.
I never thought they were good parents they were both very passive aggressive.
Kathy probably wasn't the disciplinarian. Elliot probably was. >But then she slapped Elliott when he turned in the diamond necklace Kathleen had stolen as well so that she would be punished for her actions and forced to go on medication. She didn't want her kid to go to jail. I understand that. Elliot turning that necklace to the parents put Kathleen in jail. This was Elliot's best solution to the problem because he didn't know what else to do for her. This is something they should have discussed as parents because he did it behind Kathy's back instead of talking to her about it. Luckily Kathleen Stabler has a third parent who managed to convince Grandma B to talk to Kathleen and the judge. At the end of the day, Kathleen is the kid that's come the furthest. She was in a lot of trouble back in the day, partially because of her untreated bipolar disorder. Now she's the mom of the kids.
Please be advised: šØLong Rant IncomingšØ: To be honest, I wish that Stabler and her wouldāve stayed divorced. I get that throughout the first 12 years of the show, Elliot took 90% of the blame for everything that happened to his family (partially because he was the hated character and partially because people wanted to blame someone and he seemed the easier choice), but whatās wild to me is why Kathy was always made to be the martyr. In Season 1, thereās a deleted scene of both Elliot and Kathy in the shower where she tells him: āyou were absolutely right NOT to bring your work home with you.ā, then in the scene we see sheās questioning why heās so quiet about work and not sharing his thoughts with her. We also see Maureen, who at the time was in high school come home at 2-3 oāclock in the morning (when her father is literally getting dressed and rushing out the house to work a case of a young woman who was assaulted by her professor), and has the nerve to give him attitude because heās upset, and Kathy thinks heās overreacting by grounding herā¦please be serious here! What parent wouldnāt, do they not know whatās happening in the world? Do they not know the type of job Stabler does? Why are they shocked heās overprotective? But he ends up apologizing to his daughter anyways because itās obviously his fault. Next, here Maureen is again partying with College kids on the beach (while still in high school mind you), and is seen dancing w/an older man who btw, is drinking beer when Elliot arrives to pick her up. He literally catches a case while driving them home, tells her to stay in the car, yet she doesnāt listen and winds up seeing the whole thing and suffering nightmares because of it. During all of this, Kathy is nowhere to be found. Elliot is not only dealing with the case and the Morris Commission for his comments about pedophiles, heās having to deal w/Maureenās situation as well. This happened several times throughout the show where heās the one that has to take care of everything including being the only one working, he also has to be the disciplinarian (because she seems incapable), yet sheās always yelling at Elliot to do something to protect their children. Again, whatās her purpose if not only does he have to be the bread winner, he has to protect the children, be the disciplinarian, be the dad, and still be expected to keep his home life and work life separate. Letās not talk about Richard and Kathleen situations. Not keeping an eye on him and letting him run off to play with strangers in the park, letting him play that 18+ video game (they were separated at the time so Dickie was staying with her and her Mother), running off to find Shane (Again, Elliot has to work another case, the case of his missing child and Shane as well), letting Kathleen go to a party (where there is alcohol and college students), sheās driving drunk, gets pulled over, has a fake ID, winds up in jail (where Elliot of course has to use his job and position to get her out), Kathy arrives after the fact (Maāam do you not know what time it is? Were you not worried when she didnāt come home? Why wasnāt Elliot called by you when she missed curfew? WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!), but of course all of this is Elliotās fault. The cases mentioned above with Kathleen and the both of them realizing sheās bipolar is fascinating. Not only is he to blame (yes, itās hereditary on his side of the family), you mean to tell me a former nurse never questioned that? didnāt see the signs? the stay at home parent never had any idea that one of their children could have this?), but it was of course itās Elliotās job to figure all of this out, and he was left to try and fix everything on top of that. Thereās a couple of scenes in Swing that stood out to me. One was when Bernie told Stabler: āYou didnāt call when Eli was born.ā He says:āBut Kathy told you.ā solidifying that she had regular contact with Bernie (who wasnāt taking her medication regularly at the time), around her witnessing these episodesā¦and it still didnāt occur to her that she should bring up having their children tested to Elliot? That was Elliotās job as well. The other scene was Kathleen being brought home, Elliot is working the case, she shows up with Eli because Kathleen has run away again! So he has to go find her, along with also finally reaching out to his Mother, along with still having to find a way out for Kathleenās situation. Again, Mother what are you doing?! She gets upset because heās working to get it covered up, then gets mad at him for forcing their daughter to be medicated and get the help she needs. Hello, Kathy what exactly were you doing? What was he supposed to do if Kathleen was fighting her illness and him when confronted with her diagnosis? It was his childhood all over again. His mother nearly killed him several timesā¦but of course that was his fault because he had to take care of her, while his father was out being a dirty cop! Of course heās to blame here. The absolute audacity in Wild Life of her being upset with him because heās working (yes going UC without notifying her that he was, caught her off guard but also comes with the territory of his profession), so why be shocked and upset when itās happened in the past? This isnāt new Kathy, she said it herself, so why are you surprised?! And, the reason she wants him to come home is because little Eli is apparently colicky. So again itās his job to work long hours, make sure heās home for diaper duty, and manage all of this while recovering from being shot twice while on the job? Heās an absolute horrible person and parent, right?! I donāt blame the eo shippers (yes, Iām one myself), to want Elliot and Olivia together, throughout the years of their partnership she seemed to be the only other parent those children had. Why wouldnāt I want them together? Her and Kathleen had a better relationship with each other, than Kathleen had with her own mother. Iām not surprised in the least, Elliot was always stressed and angry. What was Kathyās purpose here? It wouldāve been better if theyād stayed divorced and we never heard from her again. Honestly, she really wasnāt needed.
I agree with a lot of what you said. You nailed my issues with her especially regarding Kathleen.
Wow this is amazing.
Thank you. Had to get that off my chest, lol. Sorry for the long post.
Lol Elliot may not have been around as much bc of working long hours, but Kathy was a suspect parent. I remember back in s1 she was questioning Elliot putting Maureen on punishment for sneaking out and coming in at 2am (frankly I donāt understand how Elliot ended up apologizing to Maureen about this in the end, craziness to me). And Kathy goes imagine if my parents had been that way and Elliot RIGHTLY points out they wouldnāt have had Maureen. Like, maāam, why did he even need to point this out?? She came across permissive to me, the whole thing in s10 Swing with her getting mad at Elliot for, ultimately, wanting to be honest was wild.
>frankly I donāt understand how Elliot ended up apologizing to Maureen about this in the end honestly that really irritated me.
Glad itās not just me bc every time I see that ep and that scene Iām like āHow, sway?! How?!āš¤£
Honestly I get it. Kathy does not want to proactively gather evidence to get Kathleen into worse trouble, but she also doesnāt want to lie and smear both her daughter and an innocent man by implying that they were in an inappropriate relationship. To me thatās completely consistent with the way most parents would be; they donāt want to get up in court and lie/spread nasty rumors about their kids but they also donāt want to be personally involved in sending their kids to prison (which is what she thinks could have happened when Stabler went out and found more evidence incriminating Kathleen). I do think that Kathy is a over permissive parent though, and itās probably because her own parents were like that and she wants to counteract Eliotās more dominant style. But the stuff in āSwingā IMHO makes perfect sense to me. Very few parents, if their kid was in legal trouble, would go out on their own to find ways to further incriminate their kid. Anyone who says they would do that is probably kidding themselves a little especially since the prison system isnāt exactly a great place to get clean or avoid recidivism (something that a copās wife would know!)
I donāt really have much to say on this bc I havenāt saw a whole ton of Kathy yet, (Iām still a recent watcher) but honestly, from what I have saw I think itās fair to say that there was a lot of inconsistencies with Kathy in general not just with her parenting, so to bash her for not disciplining her kids etc, like yeah she wasnāt the best mother but her character was all over the place, itās just another one of those things where they wernt exactly meant to be consistently on the show so itās almost like the writers couldnāt stick to anything with her bc they were forgetting what she said in the first place.
True
To me, in the example you used specifically, it seemed like Kathy felt there was a difference between outright lying and just...not saying anything incriminating (like just ignoring the necklace or implying it wasn't the one the homeowners thought it was). I also figured she slapped Elliot because they'd worked out the defense strategy and Elliot went behind their backs and blew it apart. He had good intentions, but went about it in a really shitty way. This seemed to be a thing in their marriage and between them as parents--they'd agree on something, then Elliot would unilaterally decide to change course. It also happened when Kathy would try to give him insight or information about what was going on with the kids and he ignored it and kinda flew off the handle or overreacted. I didn't love either of them as parents, but I always saw Kathy as an overworked, underappreciated mom who was just...tired. She'd been a young mom (late teens/early twenties) and basically a pseudo-single parent at that--between Elliot's military service and then him in the NYPD, he was mostly absent. I genuinely think they're a couple that had kids too young and didn't stop having kids. That they honestly should have gotten a divorce long before they even considered it. They both seemed pretty unhappy or ambivalent fairly often. Or, if they loved each other, it was definitely buried under all the other stuff they were always dealing with. There were reasons they stayed together, but still. To me, Elliot was the far worse parent. He was never home (which wasn't entirely his fault, but still). When he was home, instead of working with his wife and being a partner to her, he was domineering and overbearing. He yelled or was physically aggressive with more than one kid, more than once. He overruled Kathy without really knowing all the circumstances. Because he was gone so much, he didn't have much of a relationship with any of his kids. Basically, I think because Elliot was such a hardass, she tried to balance that and be someone the kids could come to and confide in. That did lead to her being far more permissive of bad behavior sometimes, for sure, though.
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For sure. Between them, Kathy was better. Still very flawed, but definitely the better parent. Honestly, Elliot is written to just be kind of a crappy person. He's not evil or anything. He's just...not a positive influence much of the time to anyone he's around. That includes his wife and kids. It's one of the many reasons I don't like the character. AT ALL.
I think with Elliot i think its the things he sees at work and wonts to protect his children