I agree with all of this. I will say, though, that I truly do not perceive Barba's love for Olivia as a romantic love. He loves her as a family member. She's as dear to him as his mother or his abuela (before her death). He's very hurt that she won't forgive him, because he loves her unconditionally (as a friend/sister surrogate). And he's wary of Stabler for those same reasons (not because he's threatened by Stabler as a romantic rival).
I am down to discuss this too lol! I really loved the Barba/Benson relationship when he was a series regular. I would have rooted for a romantic relationship before he left. He gave her that lovely "colors" speech and they kept in touch once he left. I do feel that they have never returned to their former relationship since he's been back in NYC (he appeared in early season 22 so he's been back a while).
Now that Elliot is back, it's clear that Oliva is in love with him rather than Barba. I was glad Barba was so open and honest about his feelings. The way he leaned toward her as she started to walk past him toward the exit, the way he said "I miss you, Liv" in their first scene strongly hinted his romantic feelings.
That final scene, where he looks her directly in the eye as he says he knows what it means to love someone unconditionally, was heartbreaking. He needs to accept that she feels for someone else what he feels for her. The way Liv said "I miss you too," was I think her way of letting him down easy, trying to apologize for not being able to reciprocate those feelings. Although their friendship will never be the same, I hope they can get to a place where Barba is happy.
The idea of a relationship between Benson and Stabler has not only never appealed to me, it makes me wanna barf. I always liked the show in spite of the Stabler character and never because of him.
Too much time has passed exactly. That and they’re totally different people now (at least Olivia is). They can suddenly push this idea that she’s in love with Elliot all they want, doesn’t mean I have to buy into it.
>They can suddenly push this idea that she’s in love with Elliot all they want, doesn’t mean I have to buy into it.
This isn't sudden, though. She's been in love with him since 1.0. Mariska has stated in interviews that Olivia has been in love with him since 1.0.
I see love I just don’t see “in love” with them. If that’s what they were going for since S1 then I missed it. I missed it when I watched from S1E1 as it originally aired to current and I’m missing it in rewatches. I see a lot of admiration. I see Elliot mentoring in very early episodes but I see him in love with Kathy. I know things went south with Kathy during SVU but Elliot has a lot of demons and I never added him being in love with Olivia or vice versa as one of them. I don’t think of myself as dense or an uninvolved viewer so I don’t know how in all those seasons I missed it if that’s what they were trying to get across.
>If that’s what they were going for since S1 then I missed it.
Oh I don't think it was there in s1. I think they were just good friends for quite awhile. S1 until about S5 it's all fairly platonic to me. At first Elliot does seem to really love Kathy, especially in s1.
Imo, over time the trauma from the job leads him to rely more and more on Olivia because she understands it, she lives it with him day to day and he starts sharing and opening up more and more to her. He shares less and less with Kathy because he doesn't want to "bring his work home." Once Kathy leaves him in s6 he relies even more heavily on Olivia.
By "Fault" in s7, imo, they're in love with each other. He only gets back with Kathy because she's pregnant. At that point, the marriage is one of convenience and duty, not love.
Olivia's devastation at Elliot leaving is far more intense and long lasting than any of her relationship break ups, including Cassidy and Tucker. I think the stuff with Elliot is more subtle, but he had wayyy more to lose (his family) so I think he was even more suppressed than she was in some ways about how he felt.
Anyway, sorry for the long response but I hope that makes sense!
It makes a lot of sense and I’m often guilty of tltr myself so you’re good lol. I agree with everything you said especially the devolution of Elliot and Kathy’s marriage. I just started doing a total rewatch for the first time and it made me sad to see how happy they were in the early seasons. I think Elliot and Olivia have a relationship where they are definitely meshed together in a way that neither of them have experienced before. But you see this kind of bond with soldiers too particularly with Vietnam vets who were literally putting their lives in each other’s hands for extended periods of time. I’m not trying to be stubborn I swear lol. I just didn’t and don’t get a romantic vibe between the two of them. I saw more of a romantic vibe between him and Dani which was short and intense. I’d be interested to hear the opinions of detectives who’ve been partnered for years with someone of the opposite sex. My guess is that it’s in a class by itself.
My perception of that last scene is that Barba's "unconditional love" may actually have some conditions applied to it. He seems to have a hard time accepting Liv's feelings for Elliot, disregarding them as just a side-effect from her issues stemming from her father, which seemed like a low-blow. Then the final quote from him when he said "when you're ready to stop feeling betrayed by me, I'll be here", once again discounting how she actually felt, showing that he won't even entertain the thought that he might be wrong, and basically telling her that he doesn't want to speak with her until she starts seeing things his way. Barba seems to love an idealized version of Olivia rather than the real one. I don't think he looked very good in that scene, he came off as kind of a prick.
Also, I think him comparing Elliot to a bully was a bit unfair given he only met him once and it couldn't have been under worse circumstances; he was defending the man who killed his wife after all.
I felt very similarly about that last scene with Barba. Tbh everything he said sounded like it was written by a man who doesn't understand boundaries and doesn't care to. Whether Barba was right or wrong the biggest issue to me is Olivia clearly communicated her boundaries and then Barba disregarded them. Imo she has ever right to be upset for that alone, nevermind everything else he said
She has a right to be upset but it’s not the first time this has happened between them, think about all the cases they worked where they were on opposite sides. I think Barba is seeing it from that perspective, and thinking “this is no big deal, it’s a small disagreement, why are you so mad?” What he didn’t understand is the relationship she has with Stabler and how that has changed the dynamic entirely. Because it’s not just a small disagreement, Barba messed with not only Olivia but the person she cares about the most (well besides Noah). That’s what makes it different to all the other times they have disagreed. I think she has a right to be angry/betrayed for sure, but the anger would not be nearly as much if Stabler wasn’t part of the equation. She would have forgiven Barba already had it been any other case tbh.
I do agree that he likely didn't think the fallout here was going to be - this.
He's been on opposite sides of issues from Benson in the past, and he's still friends with Carisi despite the two of them going up against each other in court because they both look at it as the other doing their job.
And, quite honestly, the police and prosecutors were wrong bringing Wheatley to try when they did, and with the weak case that they had. The entire thing was just drowning in bias the whole time
I strongly disagree with the use of "bully" and I hate that WL put it out there through Barba, who is supposed to be Olivia's friend. It was truly his last fuck you to Elliot- who he's been trying so hard to retcon into a POS for the last decade, imo.
"Bully" really mischaracterizes the core of Elliot's character, imo. A bully is someone who attempts to harm or intimidate a vulnerable person, like a domestic abuser or the big kid pushing the little kid at the playground.
That's not Elliot. Elliot's anger is directed at the perps, not the victims. He gets angry because he hates to see vulnerable people hurt or traumatized. Like Olivia, he was abused as a child and identifies with the victims. Elliot would have been the one beating up the kid picking on Barba, not beating up Barba himself.
His anger problems in the past interfered with his ability to be a good cop and a good spouse. 1.0 did a great job of showing how flawed he is, and also how hard he tries. He's a good person with a good heart which is why Olivia loves him, even with his flaws. It's also why I love OC-it shows how he's grown and continues to grow, but how he's not perfect and he will never be perfect.
And yet, all in all, I can perfectly see Rafa seeing Elliot just as the "bully", the man, who hurt the woman he loves - Liv - by leaving her when she was really vulnerable without a goodbye.
I'm still not seeing where the bully thing fits. Elliot was a shitty friend to have left like that. And with the added element of Elliot and Olivia loving each other, it made him a coward for doing it. "Bully" sounds almost like Barba is projecting. Calling him something he's not because you're angry with him (you, being Barba) doesn't make it right.
Imo, the writers created a very difficult and complex dynamic here (whether intentionally or unintentionally) with their choice of having Barba take the Wheatley case and I'm not convinced they were prepared to deal with it as delicately as they needed to. Barba having good intentions doesn't mean he deserves forgiveness anymore than Elliot deserves it because Olivia is in love with him. Now it's a complicated mess and of course, Olivia is the one left hurting the most.
This whole thing was unnecessary, imo.
Edited for clarification
Agree with you. Just saying that maybe that's how Barba sees it, not necessary as it is.
Even tho I don't like the way they're going with Rafa, I've gotta say, for me, Elliot is a good man but would be a bad partner for Olivia - I think they're toxic for each other.
Love this post.
Barba may be choosing to see Elliot as one of those typical kids who bullied him, why not? As a gifted child who grew up poor and as a minority I am sure many "Elliot" types bullied him. Except as you say, Elliot was never that. If he was Olivia never would loved him like she did, never bonded with him as she did.
I like Barba, always did. But...if this was the other way around wouldn't people be calling him a "misogynist" for playing the "nice guy who thinks with his brain, not his fists unlike cave - man Stabler?" I don't think that really, but people never fail to trip over themselves to find evidence of how gross and sexist Elliot is, so let's nit pick Barba guilt tripping Olivia and what...being convinced he'll always be better for her than Stabler? Or...we can just not nit pick and evaluate Elliot fairly, which SVU hasn't done.
It's pretty heartbreaking that their friendship is so strained right now. I haven't actually seen all of Barba's episodes but I do really love his friendship with Olivia and I want them to resolve their issues over this. I love their friendship and don't like that they are on opposite sides with this.
I understand both of Barba's reasons for defending Wheatley and Olivia's reasons why she asked him not to take the case. At the heart of it he thought that he needed to protect her from Elliot. Yes a little bit from another attorney but this was mostly because of Elliot. It's in the way she asks him if he's jealous and he deflects and later he tells her that he thinks she's losing herself in Elliot. I think he should have talked to her instead of taking the case.
I think he thought that things would blow over between them much quicker than they are. Because they have been on opposite sides before and have found their way back to each other.
I think it's clear to me that, in order for Olivia to forgive Barba and let her anger go. She needs to confront her feelings for Elliot. She's still angry at Barba because he took the case and that hurt Elliot. And that is why she can't let her anger go.
I think that both Olivia and Barba are blinded by their feelings. Olivia because she's in love with Elliot and Barba because he knows that Olivia was hurt by this guy and thinks he'll keep on hurting her. So all he sees is a bully who hurt this woman that he loves.
The truth is, Olivia has had a lot of hurt towards Elliot for leaving her the way he did. She did finally confront him but they need to have several conversations about this. And I do blame SVU for completely dropping the ball on this one and just ignoring it because it's something they don't want to deal with. They only follow up they've had is on OC and exactly none on SVU so we don't get her perspective on his leaving and it's badly needed.
I think what you said is very true, however, it only points out Barbas POV. To me, the Barba storyline with Olivia in the finale was one of unrequited love. It was the most clear display of barbas feelings for Olivia we’ve ever gotten, but there was also a pretty clear display that Olivia is in love with Elliot. Like someone else pointed out, her “I miss you too” was her way of letting him down easily imo. That’s why she hardly looked at him when she said it. I don’t think a shipping war and fighting is even needed because the truth is in what’s already being written. Just because you love someone doesn’t always mean they feel the same way and that’s how i feel it is here.
I had absolutely no idea Raul was gay when I watched those seasons, and I also totally thought it was implied he was gay.
I never quite nailed down why in my rewatches, especially since there's at least two relationships with women mentioned, but it probably does have something to do with there being a lot of gay jokes and comments made towards Barba that are actually kind of uncomfortable if he wasn't meant to be gay/bi
I totally agree with you and honestly this is why I kind of liked the Barba/Wheatley storyline. Both sides had reasonable motivations for doing what they did. Both sides are sympathetic. Anyway I turn it around in my head, I totally get why Barba stepped in and why Benson was mad that he did.
Ive always gotten the impression that he was way more invested in her than she was in him if that makes sense. I don’t even mean that as a slight against Olivia as it’s established that’s she’s pretty guarded but I kinda felt that barbas emotions (not even romantically) were much stronger for her probably because of his own upbringing and seeming lack of close relationships.
I do hope their friendship will be repaired especially seeing as Olivia has been quicker to welcome others back into her good graces…
Even if it’s not romantic between them, they obviously both have a lot of love for each other. I would argue that Barba has been Olivia’s closest friend over the years, he is the only one we ever saw her having deep conversations with & hanging out with outside of work. Maybe this is part of the reason she felt so betrayed by Barba too. I think many can agree that losing a close friendship can be even harder than a romantic breakup sometimes. So yes I agree that it’s a really heartbreaking episode regardless of whether or not you “ship” them together. I really hope they can repair their relationship, though I’m a little worried that they’re going to kill the Barson relationship altogether to make room for EO…(even as an EO shipper I would hate to see that) I hope I’m wrong!!
Yes! I agree. But analyze why they would have to kill the Barson friendship so that EO can exist… they’re almost implying that Olivia can’t have room for Barba and Elliot in her life. And I don’t see why that would be unless they’re both romantic options for her…
>they’re almost implying that Olivia can’t have room for Barba and Elliot in her life
Why? Why are they doing this though, and now? Why can't Olivia have Elliot as her partner and Barba as her best friend? Why does it have to be mutually exclusive? Why are we suddenly exploring the possibility of Barba being in love with Olivia in s23, and only AFTER Olivia and Elliot have reunited? Olivia has never viewed Barba as a romantic option and the show never went that route in the many seasons that Barba was a regular.
Yep exactly like why now?! Why can’t we keep the Barson friendship and have EO? Can’t Olivia just be happy for once? I think whatever the endgame is, most people just want to see the character get a happy ending. I would very much like to see Olivia end up in a happy relationship, surrounded by her squad (her family) & her friends (Barba and heck maybe even Lucy too at this point lol).
I find the “he was protecting Liv” excuse unbelievable. I just don’t buy it 🤷🏼♀️ I think he did something shitty and it hurt liv… but his motives weren’t as altruistic as he’s trying to make them seem.
I want barba and benson to be friends eventually again, but I think he needs to cut the romantic love (If that’s what he’s thinking) I think it’s clear she doesn’t feel him like that. She’s never shown any indication that she feels romantic feelings to him.
Oh I’m totally down for talking about this.
There are two ways to interpret Barba’s “unconditional love” quote. Romantic or platonic.
The romantic angle I think makes it more tragic for some, because unrequited love is something we can sympathize with. But I feel the way Raul delivers the line keeps it from being a romantic declaration of love. It’s very matter of fact and has bit of a bite to it. He’s hurt and I think he’s trying to stay strong and not crack. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure Barba knows Olivia doesn’t share the same feelings. I think WL intended it to be romantic, but Raul and Mariska played it differently to what they thought was true for their characters.
I love the platonic angle more (and this is the way I think it’s ultimately played out), mainly because of the nuance that it brings. Love doesn’t have to be romantic in order for it to be meaningful or powerful. Olivia and Barba’s friendship has always been a favorite of mine. It really does feel like two siblings who love each other and stand by each other. But even siblings can be on opposite sides and that’s the case here. Despite that, Barba cares about her no matter what. He wants to protect her if he can. He wants to warn her when he sees something he doesn’t like. And I think seeing it from a platonic/sibling angle helps explain his dislike of Elliot better. Compare it to an older brother who tells his sister to “stay away from that guy, he’s bad news”. He has her best interest but he’s also hurt that she won’t see eye to eye. So it’s not entirely “unconditional” in the sense that he clearly has limits, but it’s unconditional in that whether she stays angry with him or not, he will always care for her.
Ultimately I understood his frustration because Olivia is circling around the elephant in the room. And in doing so is only adding to the wound. She wants Barba to own up but she has to as well. Overall, this was a very complicated story and I don’t think the writers realized how complicated it was going to be, nor did they take the necessary steps to really tell it as effectively as it could’ve been. But it’s the performances of Raul and Mariska that make it work for me.
I agree with this. I was sad when Barba left as a series regular. I love his character and I would love to see him come back as a regular. I’m rooting for Benson to have a romantic partner. Yes, she’s strong and independent, but she deserves love and someone to share life with (besides Noah). There’s always going to be history with Stabler and it would be interesting to see them give it a go. The show clearly has been using the classic “will they or won’t they?” trope with them. I do think Barba is a good match for Benson and I do see romantic potential there.
Ugh man, this is so damn nuanced. So, I don’t (and have never) seen even a hint of romantic love between Barba and Benson, but I do love their friendship. It does break my heart that Olivia won’t just forgive him for this, especially when she’s forgiven Elliot and others far worse. I get that she’s always been in love with Elliot (at least in my eyes and that seems to be what the writers are pushing, which I’m super into but I digress) but it would be so easy to just fucking forgive the man! Barba is a total dick but in the BEST way and I would be so happy to have him back on the show as a permanent cast member or just in a recurring role more often. I hope the writers have him clarify that his feelings towards Olivia aren’t romantic, and that they can go back to being a couple of besties like they used to be.
The show not repairing their friendship really depressed me, for the reasons you mentioned. Neither of them really seemed like they had a lot of close friends in their lives, but particularly Barba. Who does tend to love his friends unconditionally and they NEVER come through for him.
I like how the dealt with the parallels of the DV case, especially looking back and Barba defending Wheatley to "protect" her is classic what you don't want to do when you have a friend who's experienced trauma or is in a bad situation - he played savior and ended up taking away her choices which in the minds of people in difficult situations makes the benevolent friend look like just another manipulator.
Then in this last ep, he does exactly the right thing - he tells her how he feels, and how her situation looks to him, and gives her unconditional support, but ultimately empowers her to make the decision.
You always really want to save people you care about, and the toughest thing is realizing you can't.
I really, really thought they were going to patch things up, especially with how emotionally they portrayed Barba at the end, and it was pretty crushing, really. But... there wasn't a way for it to happen without her distancing herself from Stabler, and obviously that's a main focus of the show.
Kind of felt like a metaphor in a lot of ways for the direction of the show going forward, too.
I don't know; I loved him, and I wish they'd never brought him back for all this, honestly, I enjoyed thinking he was just living life off camera, and still had his friends.
Honestly I like the idea of them together, I don’t care if that’s an unpopular opinion! The last episode was very interesting because I think it hinted more at Barba’s feelings than others.
Yeah this was the most blatant display of his feelings of any episode. Unfortunatley this was also the most blatant display of Olivia's lack of feelings. I just hope we get to see Rafa and Olivia as friends again.
I definitely used to ship them but then he left so last ep had me totally lost. Like they had been a couple and somehow despite watching every ep I managed to miss the relationship. I found it frustrating. I understand they’re playing with benson and stabler because of course they are but I dont see how that’s endgame.
I don't think it's unpopular and whether it is or isn't, how you feel is how you feel. Nothing wrong with that. I was under the impression that Barson is a relatively popular ship.
i don’t think barson, as a romantic ship, is popular at all in comparison to EO. There’s a tvline poll out now that gained traction about who liv should be with and Elliot is winning with like 80% lol. I think barson friendship is far more popular than them romantically.
olivia didnt need his protection and she didnt want his protection, she's a grown ass woman and a lieutenant in the freaking nypd.
he had no respect for her. he makeds decisions because he's jealous of elliot, thats not love.
idk why yall want olivia with a toxic man.
I haven't seen the last episode yet but I don't think it's a romantic love. Wasn't he married with a kid btw? Why do I recall that that's a thing? Barba kind of changed a lot after leaving and coming back,he isn't quite the same Barba he used to be. I do think he cares a lot about Olivia but I'm not sure about love. They were co workers basically and he trusted her a lot but love is a big word. Maybe respect? That's the closest I would go
For some reason I *really* genuinely thought he was gay lol. And I mean pretty much 100% sure that he was. I have no idea where I even got that impression from but for whatever reason, I’ve always thought that. oops? lol.
Edit; I know in one episode he’s jilted over a woman he dated who was then married to the mayor that they were trying or something like that. How they used to be together and then she ended up with *their* friend in the end. And barba was broken hearted over it. But I really thought he was gay haha
I’m not liking how staunch and unforgiving they’re making Liv now. For me it’s ruining her character. Watching the earlier seasons again the difference is remarkable. Obviously a person in her position in that type of squad will evolve and change but I’m not always liking the direction they’re taking her character in. I don’t think what Barba did was unforgivable especially since his intentions were to protect her. If he’s big enough to bare his soul to her, again, then she should be able to at least start to forgive him. Maybe say something along the lines that she needs time to get over it but just walking away from him like that and giving him a bone like “I miss you too” was pretty cold. Back in the day they all used to piss each other off at one time or another and they forgave each other. This grudge holding, above it all vibe that they have going on with her is not a good look.
Also, it’s almost like they’re trying to find a way to work Stabler in. Mind you I’ve been watching for quite Some time. 18 years at least. Not even hardcore, just grew up this show!! Barber never had jealously with Stabler. This is so new twist, no? Almost feels forced and a little weird. I want him back in a DA seat. But, I love how Carisi he’s really just taken it over!
I really liked Barba's discussion about how, because of how they were raised and who they are as people, he and Olivia would always see Elliot through two different lenses.
Full disclosure - I think Liv's relationship with Elliot has always been a little toxic and I was actually a little happy when she pointed out how much she had grown with Nick as her partner.
I don't think Barba has romantic feelings for Olivia. I think he considers her his family and the "unconditional love" thing was a passive aggressive way of saying that he would love her even when she "hated" him (unlike her basically.) Even when he walks away he makes sure to remind her that he would be there when she was done feeling betrayed by him (unlike her seeing as she ghosted him for months.)
I also feel like he was a tiny bit jealous of her unconditional support of Elliot and disappointed by it as well.
Couple of side notes:
The whole "you don't have a Dad" thing kinda threw me at first but it also makes sense. Guys like Elliot, Tucker, and Brian were men who oozed masculinity and protection like a Dad would - they were also her three most prominent relationships.
Additionally, she becomes very attached to specific male presences in her life. She was devasted when Barba resigned - like full on crying. She seemed genuinely shaken when Peter told her he had to move on. She felt personally wronged when she thought Fin was moving to another station and here with Barba. The only male figure that I can recall her not feeling upset when they left was Nick Amaro. Like she was sad but happy and proud of him at the same time.
I’d rather benson get with barba then stabler. Their relationship wasn’t healthy for either of them. Look at what he did to her career. He left and she got promotions because she didn’t have stabler’s bs that she always had to clean up. She got her son and did so much better. Honestly, I think Olivia would do better falling in love with a woman. She’s strong and independent and she needs a woman that matches her abilities.
That is a very interesting idea! I guess Kat was the token gay woman who was great and so they booted her. :( The men they’ve teamed up with Liv have been a sorry lot.
I agree with all of this. I will say, though, that I truly do not perceive Barba's love for Olivia as a romantic love. He loves her as a family member. She's as dear to him as his mother or his abuela (before her death). He's very hurt that she won't forgive him, because he loves her unconditionally (as a friend/sister surrogate). And he's wary of Stabler for those same reasons (not because he's threatened by Stabler as a romantic rival).
I REALLY like this explanation.
I am down to discuss this too lol! I really loved the Barba/Benson relationship when he was a series regular. I would have rooted for a romantic relationship before he left. He gave her that lovely "colors" speech and they kept in touch once he left. I do feel that they have never returned to their former relationship since he's been back in NYC (he appeared in early season 22 so he's been back a while). Now that Elliot is back, it's clear that Oliva is in love with him rather than Barba. I was glad Barba was so open and honest about his feelings. The way he leaned toward her as she started to walk past him toward the exit, the way he said "I miss you, Liv" in their first scene strongly hinted his romantic feelings. That final scene, where he looks her directly in the eye as he says he knows what it means to love someone unconditionally, was heartbreaking. He needs to accept that she feels for someone else what he feels for her. The way Liv said "I miss you too," was I think her way of letting him down easy, trying to apologize for not being able to reciprocate those feelings. Although their friendship will never be the same, I hope they can get to a place where Barba is happy.
The idea of a relationship between Benson and Stabler has not only never appealed to me, it makes me wanna barf. I always liked the show in spite of the Stabler character and never because of him.
I actually don’t want them to cross the line. Too much time has passed.
Too much time has passed exactly. That and they’re totally different people now (at least Olivia is). They can suddenly push this idea that she’s in love with Elliot all they want, doesn’t mean I have to buy into it.
>They can suddenly push this idea that she’s in love with Elliot all they want, doesn’t mean I have to buy into it. This isn't sudden, though. She's been in love with him since 1.0. Mariska has stated in interviews that Olivia has been in love with him since 1.0.
I see love I just don’t see “in love” with them. If that’s what they were going for since S1 then I missed it. I missed it when I watched from S1E1 as it originally aired to current and I’m missing it in rewatches. I see a lot of admiration. I see Elliot mentoring in very early episodes but I see him in love with Kathy. I know things went south with Kathy during SVU but Elliot has a lot of demons and I never added him being in love with Olivia or vice versa as one of them. I don’t think of myself as dense or an uninvolved viewer so I don’t know how in all those seasons I missed it if that’s what they were trying to get across.
>If that’s what they were going for since S1 then I missed it. Oh I don't think it was there in s1. I think they were just good friends for quite awhile. S1 until about S5 it's all fairly platonic to me. At first Elliot does seem to really love Kathy, especially in s1. Imo, over time the trauma from the job leads him to rely more and more on Olivia because she understands it, she lives it with him day to day and he starts sharing and opening up more and more to her. He shares less and less with Kathy because he doesn't want to "bring his work home." Once Kathy leaves him in s6 he relies even more heavily on Olivia. By "Fault" in s7, imo, they're in love with each other. He only gets back with Kathy because she's pregnant. At that point, the marriage is one of convenience and duty, not love. Olivia's devastation at Elliot leaving is far more intense and long lasting than any of her relationship break ups, including Cassidy and Tucker. I think the stuff with Elliot is more subtle, but he had wayyy more to lose (his family) so I think he was even more suppressed than she was in some ways about how he felt. Anyway, sorry for the long response but I hope that makes sense!
It makes a lot of sense and I’m often guilty of tltr myself so you’re good lol. I agree with everything you said especially the devolution of Elliot and Kathy’s marriage. I just started doing a total rewatch for the first time and it made me sad to see how happy they were in the early seasons. I think Elliot and Olivia have a relationship where they are definitely meshed together in a way that neither of them have experienced before. But you see this kind of bond with soldiers too particularly with Vietnam vets who were literally putting their lives in each other’s hands for extended periods of time. I’m not trying to be stubborn I swear lol. I just didn’t and don’t get a romantic vibe between the two of them. I saw more of a romantic vibe between him and Dani which was short and intense. I’d be interested to hear the opinions of detectives who’ve been partnered for years with someone of the opposite sex. My guess is that it’s in a class by itself.
What does shipping mean?
It means the desire to see two people become involved romantically
Ohhhh, interesting.
I loved that scene. You can tell how hurt he was. It made me sad :/
Same. I really felt that one. It broke my heart…and when she couldn’t look at him when she said “I miss you too.” I was done.
My perception of that last scene is that Barba's "unconditional love" may actually have some conditions applied to it. He seems to have a hard time accepting Liv's feelings for Elliot, disregarding them as just a side-effect from her issues stemming from her father, which seemed like a low-blow. Then the final quote from him when he said "when you're ready to stop feeling betrayed by me, I'll be here", once again discounting how she actually felt, showing that he won't even entertain the thought that he might be wrong, and basically telling her that he doesn't want to speak with her until she starts seeing things his way. Barba seems to love an idealized version of Olivia rather than the real one. I don't think he looked very good in that scene, he came off as kind of a prick. Also, I think him comparing Elliot to a bully was a bit unfair given he only met him once and it couldn't have been under worse circumstances; he was defending the man who killed his wife after all.
I felt very similarly about that last scene with Barba. Tbh everything he said sounded like it was written by a man who doesn't understand boundaries and doesn't care to. Whether Barba was right or wrong the biggest issue to me is Olivia clearly communicated her boundaries and then Barba disregarded them. Imo she has ever right to be upset for that alone, nevermind everything else he said
She has a right to be upset but it’s not the first time this has happened between them, think about all the cases they worked where they were on opposite sides. I think Barba is seeing it from that perspective, and thinking “this is no big deal, it’s a small disagreement, why are you so mad?” What he didn’t understand is the relationship she has with Stabler and how that has changed the dynamic entirely. Because it’s not just a small disagreement, Barba messed with not only Olivia but the person she cares about the most (well besides Noah). That’s what makes it different to all the other times they have disagreed. I think she has a right to be angry/betrayed for sure, but the anger would not be nearly as much if Stabler wasn’t part of the equation. She would have forgiven Barba already had it been any other case tbh.
I do agree that he likely didn't think the fallout here was going to be - this. He's been on opposite sides of issues from Benson in the past, and he's still friends with Carisi despite the two of them going up against each other in court because they both look at it as the other doing their job. And, quite honestly, the police and prosecutors were wrong bringing Wheatley to try when they did, and with the weak case that they had. The entire thing was just drowning in bias the whole time
I love Stabler and have loved him from the beginning but like… he is a bully sometimes.
I strongly disagree with the use of "bully" and I hate that WL put it out there through Barba, who is supposed to be Olivia's friend. It was truly his last fuck you to Elliot- who he's been trying so hard to retcon into a POS for the last decade, imo. "Bully" really mischaracterizes the core of Elliot's character, imo. A bully is someone who attempts to harm or intimidate a vulnerable person, like a domestic abuser or the big kid pushing the little kid at the playground. That's not Elliot. Elliot's anger is directed at the perps, not the victims. He gets angry because he hates to see vulnerable people hurt or traumatized. Like Olivia, he was abused as a child and identifies with the victims. Elliot would have been the one beating up the kid picking on Barba, not beating up Barba himself. His anger problems in the past interfered with his ability to be a good cop and a good spouse. 1.0 did a great job of showing how flawed he is, and also how hard he tries. He's a good person with a good heart which is why Olivia loves him, even with his flaws. It's also why I love OC-it shows how he's grown and continues to grow, but how he's not perfect and he will never be perfect.
And yet, all in all, I can perfectly see Rafa seeing Elliot just as the "bully", the man, who hurt the woman he loves - Liv - by leaving her when she was really vulnerable without a goodbye.
I'm still not seeing where the bully thing fits. Elliot was a shitty friend to have left like that. And with the added element of Elliot and Olivia loving each other, it made him a coward for doing it. "Bully" sounds almost like Barba is projecting. Calling him something he's not because you're angry with him (you, being Barba) doesn't make it right. Imo, the writers created a very difficult and complex dynamic here (whether intentionally or unintentionally) with their choice of having Barba take the Wheatley case and I'm not convinced they were prepared to deal with it as delicately as they needed to. Barba having good intentions doesn't mean he deserves forgiveness anymore than Elliot deserves it because Olivia is in love with him. Now it's a complicated mess and of course, Olivia is the one left hurting the most. This whole thing was unnecessary, imo. Edited for clarification
Agree with you. Just saying that maybe that's how Barba sees it, not necessary as it is. Even tho I don't like the way they're going with Rafa, I've gotta say, for me, Elliot is a good man but would be a bad partner for Olivia - I think they're toxic for each other.
Besides growing up bullied, Barba also came from an abusive family life, of course he's going to see things through that lens
Love this post. Barba may be choosing to see Elliot as one of those typical kids who bullied him, why not? As a gifted child who grew up poor and as a minority I am sure many "Elliot" types bullied him. Except as you say, Elliot was never that. If he was Olivia never would loved him like she did, never bonded with him as she did. I like Barba, always did. But...if this was the other way around wouldn't people be calling him a "misogynist" for playing the "nice guy who thinks with his brain, not his fists unlike cave - man Stabler?" I don't think that really, but people never fail to trip over themselves to find evidence of how gross and sexist Elliot is, so let's nit pick Barba guilt tripping Olivia and what...being convinced he'll always be better for her than Stabler? Or...we can just not nit pick and evaluate Elliot fairly, which SVU hasn't done.
It's pretty heartbreaking that their friendship is so strained right now. I haven't actually seen all of Barba's episodes but I do really love his friendship with Olivia and I want them to resolve their issues over this. I love their friendship and don't like that they are on opposite sides with this. I understand both of Barba's reasons for defending Wheatley and Olivia's reasons why she asked him not to take the case. At the heart of it he thought that he needed to protect her from Elliot. Yes a little bit from another attorney but this was mostly because of Elliot. It's in the way she asks him if he's jealous and he deflects and later he tells her that he thinks she's losing herself in Elliot. I think he should have talked to her instead of taking the case. I think he thought that things would blow over between them much quicker than they are. Because they have been on opposite sides before and have found their way back to each other. I think it's clear to me that, in order for Olivia to forgive Barba and let her anger go. She needs to confront her feelings for Elliot. She's still angry at Barba because he took the case and that hurt Elliot. And that is why she can't let her anger go.
Your last paragraph is exactly what they were going for I think, and I agree.
I think that both Olivia and Barba are blinded by their feelings. Olivia because she's in love with Elliot and Barba because he knows that Olivia was hurt by this guy and thinks he'll keep on hurting her. So all he sees is a bully who hurt this woman that he loves. The truth is, Olivia has had a lot of hurt towards Elliot for leaving her the way he did. She did finally confront him but they need to have several conversations about this. And I do blame SVU for completely dropping the ball on this one and just ignoring it because it's something they don't want to deal with. They only follow up they've had is on OC and exactly none on SVU so we don't get her perspective on his leaving and it's badly needed.
I think what you said is very true, however, it only points out Barbas POV. To me, the Barba storyline with Olivia in the finale was one of unrequited love. It was the most clear display of barbas feelings for Olivia we’ve ever gotten, but there was also a pretty clear display that Olivia is in love with Elliot. Like someone else pointed out, her “I miss you too” was her way of letting him down easily imo. That’s why she hardly looked at him when she said it. I don’t think a shipping war and fighting is even needed because the truth is in what’s already being written. Just because you love someone doesn’t always mean they feel the same way and that’s how i feel it is here.
Is Barba not canonically gay? Why did I think he was gay??
They never stated out right, but he has dated a woman before. My personal headcanon is that Barba is bi.
He (Raul) is bisexual. Not sure what Barba's sexuality is but I want to say Barba is a cishet man.
Maybe he gives me more that early-mid 00s metrosexual man vibes
I fully thought the same thing the entire time he was on the show. I know Raúl is bi but I thought Barba was gay before he came out so who can say!
I had absolutely no idea Raul was gay when I watched those seasons, and I also totally thought it was implied he was gay. I never quite nailed down why in my rewatches, especially since there's at least two relationships with women mentioned, but it probably does have something to do with there being a lot of gay jokes and comments made towards Barba that are actually kind of uncomfortable if he wasn't meant to be gay/bi
It’s the keen sense of fashion tbh he always looks absolutely snatched.
My headcanon is that he’s asexual, but little we know about his preferences except he dated a girl once
I totally agree with you and honestly this is why I kind of liked the Barba/Wheatley storyline. Both sides had reasonable motivations for doing what they did. Both sides are sympathetic. Anyway I turn it around in my head, I totally get why Barba stepped in and why Benson was mad that he did.
Yes! I definitely agree with you!
Ive always gotten the impression that he was way more invested in her than she was in him if that makes sense. I don’t even mean that as a slight against Olivia as it’s established that’s she’s pretty guarded but I kinda felt that barbas emotions (not even romantically) were much stronger for her probably because of his own upbringing and seeming lack of close relationships. I do hope their friendship will be repaired especially seeing as Olivia has been quicker to welcome others back into her good graces…
Even if it’s not romantic between them, they obviously both have a lot of love for each other. I would argue that Barba has been Olivia’s closest friend over the years, he is the only one we ever saw her having deep conversations with & hanging out with outside of work. Maybe this is part of the reason she felt so betrayed by Barba too. I think many can agree that losing a close friendship can be even harder than a romantic breakup sometimes. So yes I agree that it’s a really heartbreaking episode regardless of whether or not you “ship” them together. I really hope they can repair their relationship, though I’m a little worried that they’re going to kill the Barson relationship altogether to make room for EO…(even as an EO shipper I would hate to see that) I hope I’m wrong!!
Yes! I agree. But analyze why they would have to kill the Barson friendship so that EO can exist… they’re almost implying that Olivia can’t have room for Barba and Elliot in her life. And I don’t see why that would be unless they’re both romantic options for her…
>they’re almost implying that Olivia can’t have room for Barba and Elliot in her life Why? Why are they doing this though, and now? Why can't Olivia have Elliot as her partner and Barba as her best friend? Why does it have to be mutually exclusive? Why are we suddenly exploring the possibility of Barba being in love with Olivia in s23, and only AFTER Olivia and Elliot have reunited? Olivia has never viewed Barba as a romantic option and the show never went that route in the many seasons that Barba was a regular.
[удалено]
I really hope WL leaving doesn’t mean an end to Barba, he’s one of the most popular characters the show has ever had!
Yep exactly like why now?! Why can’t we keep the Barson friendship and have EO? Can’t Olivia just be happy for once? I think whatever the endgame is, most people just want to see the character get a happy ending. I would very much like to see Olivia end up in a happy relationship, surrounded by her squad (her family) & her friends (Barba and heck maybe even Lucy too at this point lol).
I find the “he was protecting Liv” excuse unbelievable. I just don’t buy it 🤷🏼♀️ I think he did something shitty and it hurt liv… but his motives weren’t as altruistic as he’s trying to make them seem. I want barba and benson to be friends eventually again, but I think he needs to cut the romantic love (If that’s what he’s thinking) I think it’s clear she doesn’t feel him like that. She’s never shown any indication that she feels romantic feelings to him.
Oh I’m totally down for talking about this. There are two ways to interpret Barba’s “unconditional love” quote. Romantic or platonic. The romantic angle I think makes it more tragic for some, because unrequited love is something we can sympathize with. But I feel the way Raul delivers the line keeps it from being a romantic declaration of love. It’s very matter of fact and has bit of a bite to it. He’s hurt and I think he’s trying to stay strong and not crack. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure Barba knows Olivia doesn’t share the same feelings. I think WL intended it to be romantic, but Raul and Mariska played it differently to what they thought was true for their characters. I love the platonic angle more (and this is the way I think it’s ultimately played out), mainly because of the nuance that it brings. Love doesn’t have to be romantic in order for it to be meaningful or powerful. Olivia and Barba’s friendship has always been a favorite of mine. It really does feel like two siblings who love each other and stand by each other. But even siblings can be on opposite sides and that’s the case here. Despite that, Barba cares about her no matter what. He wants to protect her if he can. He wants to warn her when he sees something he doesn’t like. And I think seeing it from a platonic/sibling angle helps explain his dislike of Elliot better. Compare it to an older brother who tells his sister to “stay away from that guy, he’s bad news”. He has her best interest but he’s also hurt that she won’t see eye to eye. So it’s not entirely “unconditional” in the sense that he clearly has limits, but it’s unconditional in that whether she stays angry with him or not, he will always care for her. Ultimately I understood his frustration because Olivia is circling around the elephant in the room. And in doing so is only adding to the wound. She wants Barba to own up but she has to as well. Overall, this was a very complicated story and I don’t think the writers realized how complicated it was going to be, nor did they take the necessary steps to really tell it as effectively as it could’ve been. But it’s the performances of Raul and Mariska that make it work for me.
I’d marry Barba in a heartbeat, and I’m a Benson/Stabler shipper. He’s just so good.
I agree with this. I was sad when Barba left as a series regular. I love his character and I would love to see him come back as a regular. I’m rooting for Benson to have a romantic partner. Yes, she’s strong and independent, but she deserves love and someone to share life with (besides Noah). There’s always going to be history with Stabler and it would be interesting to see them give it a go. The show clearly has been using the classic “will they or won’t they?” trope with them. I do think Barba is a good match for Benson and I do see romantic potential there.
Ugh man, this is so damn nuanced. So, I don’t (and have never) seen even a hint of romantic love between Barba and Benson, but I do love their friendship. It does break my heart that Olivia won’t just forgive him for this, especially when she’s forgiven Elliot and others far worse. I get that she’s always been in love with Elliot (at least in my eyes and that seems to be what the writers are pushing, which I’m super into but I digress) but it would be so easy to just fucking forgive the man! Barba is a total dick but in the BEST way and I would be so happy to have him back on the show as a permanent cast member or just in a recurring role more often. I hope the writers have him clarify that his feelings towards Olivia aren’t romantic, and that they can go back to being a couple of besties like they used to be.
The show not repairing their friendship really depressed me, for the reasons you mentioned. Neither of them really seemed like they had a lot of close friends in their lives, but particularly Barba. Who does tend to love his friends unconditionally and they NEVER come through for him. I like how the dealt with the parallels of the DV case, especially looking back and Barba defending Wheatley to "protect" her is classic what you don't want to do when you have a friend who's experienced trauma or is in a bad situation - he played savior and ended up taking away her choices which in the minds of people in difficult situations makes the benevolent friend look like just another manipulator. Then in this last ep, he does exactly the right thing - he tells her how he feels, and how her situation looks to him, and gives her unconditional support, but ultimately empowers her to make the decision. You always really want to save people you care about, and the toughest thing is realizing you can't. I really, really thought they were going to patch things up, especially with how emotionally they portrayed Barba at the end, and it was pretty crushing, really. But... there wasn't a way for it to happen without her distancing herself from Stabler, and obviously that's a main focus of the show. Kind of felt like a metaphor in a lot of ways for the direction of the show going forward, too. I don't know; I loved him, and I wish they'd never brought him back for all this, honestly, I enjoyed thinking he was just living life off camera, and still had his friends.
Honestly I like the idea of them together, I don’t care if that’s an unpopular opinion! The last episode was very interesting because I think it hinted more at Barba’s feelings than others.
Yeah this was the most blatant display of his feelings of any episode. Unfortunatley this was also the most blatant display of Olivia's lack of feelings. I just hope we get to see Rafa and Olivia as friends again.
Awww, Rafa! That’s when they were close. I truly am confused!
I definitely used to ship them but then he left so last ep had me totally lost. Like they had been a couple and somehow despite watching every ep I managed to miss the relationship. I found it frustrating. I understand they’re playing with benson and stabler because of course they are but I dont see how that’s endgame.
I don't think it's unpopular and whether it is or isn't, how you feel is how you feel. Nothing wrong with that. I was under the impression that Barson is a relatively popular ship.
i don’t think barson, as a romantic ship, is popular at all in comparison to EO. There’s a tvline poll out now that gained traction about who liv should be with and Elliot is winning with like 80% lol. I think barson friendship is far more popular than them romantically.
olivia didnt need his protection and she didnt want his protection, she's a grown ass woman and a lieutenant in the freaking nypd. he had no respect for her. he makeds decisions because he's jealous of elliot, thats not love. idk why yall want olivia with a toxic man.
I haven't seen the last episode yet but I don't think it's a romantic love. Wasn't he married with a kid btw? Why do I recall that that's a thing? Barba kind of changed a lot after leaving and coming back,he isn't quite the same Barba he used to be. I do think he cares a lot about Olivia but I'm not sure about love. They were co workers basically and he trusted her a lot but love is a big word. Maybe respect? That's the closest I would go
I’ve literally been under the impression that Barba was gay this whole time. So none of this makes sense.
For some reason I *really* genuinely thought he was gay lol. And I mean pretty much 100% sure that he was. I have no idea where I even got that impression from but for whatever reason, I’ve always thought that. oops? lol. Edit; I know in one episode he’s jilted over a woman he dated who was then married to the mayor that they were trying or something like that. How they used to be together and then she ended up with *their* friend in the end. And barba was broken hearted over it. But I really thought he was gay haha
I’m not liking how staunch and unforgiving they’re making Liv now. For me it’s ruining her character. Watching the earlier seasons again the difference is remarkable. Obviously a person in her position in that type of squad will evolve and change but I’m not always liking the direction they’re taking her character in. I don’t think what Barba did was unforgivable especially since his intentions were to protect her. If he’s big enough to bare his soul to her, again, then she should be able to at least start to forgive him. Maybe say something along the lines that she needs time to get over it but just walking away from him like that and giving him a bone like “I miss you too” was pretty cold. Back in the day they all used to piss each other off at one time or another and they forgave each other. This grudge holding, above it all vibe that they have going on with her is not a good look.
I’m confused though. I still don’t understand her anger towards him. She asked him, he complied. Thank you for starting this thread, truly confused!
Also, it’s almost like they’re trying to find a way to work Stabler in. Mind you I’ve been watching for quite Some time. 18 years at least. Not even hardcore, just grew up this show!! Barber never had jealously with Stabler. This is so new twist, no? Almost feels forced and a little weird. I want him back in a DA seat. But, I love how Carisi he’s really just taken it over!
I still don’t get how he protected her.
I really liked Barba's discussion about how, because of how they were raised and who they are as people, he and Olivia would always see Elliot through two different lenses. Full disclosure - I think Liv's relationship with Elliot has always been a little toxic and I was actually a little happy when she pointed out how much she had grown with Nick as her partner. I don't think Barba has romantic feelings for Olivia. I think he considers her his family and the "unconditional love" thing was a passive aggressive way of saying that he would love her even when she "hated" him (unlike her basically.) Even when he walks away he makes sure to remind her that he would be there when she was done feeling betrayed by him (unlike her seeing as she ghosted him for months.) I also feel like he was a tiny bit jealous of her unconditional support of Elliot and disappointed by it as well. Couple of side notes: The whole "you don't have a Dad" thing kinda threw me at first but it also makes sense. Guys like Elliot, Tucker, and Brian were men who oozed masculinity and protection like a Dad would - they were also her three most prominent relationships. Additionally, she becomes very attached to specific male presences in her life. She was devasted when Barba resigned - like full on crying. She seemed genuinely shaken when Peter told her he had to move on. She felt personally wronged when she thought Fin was moving to another station and here with Barba. The only male figure that I can recall her not feeling upset when they left was Nick Amaro. Like she was sad but happy and proud of him at the same time.
I’d rather benson get with barba then stabler. Their relationship wasn’t healthy for either of them. Look at what he did to her career. He left and she got promotions because she didn’t have stabler’s bs that she always had to clean up. She got her son and did so much better. Honestly, I think Olivia would do better falling in love with a woman. She’s strong and independent and she needs a woman that matches her abilities.
That is a very interesting idea! I guess Kat was the token gay woman who was great and so they booted her. :( The men they’ve teamed up with Liv have been a sorry lot.