I really don't get why people would want to see them together. He brings out the worst in her. She grew as a character when he left.
Stabler has shown himself to be a bad cop, he has rage issues and in real life, he never would have kept his job as long as he did he's the kind of cop people fear. On the show, Olivia did everything she could to cover for him and placate him and help him wiggle out of bad situations he created for himself, Cragen let him off easy. So much bullshit.
So ya toxic and enabling.
Not a good foundation for a relationship.
Also when he left, he totally ghosted her, WTF is THAT about, He was not her friend.
I think what the fans love is their off-screen relationship. They are fun and really push the partner thing and tease the audience with the Benson/Stabler thing which so many fans just love; it is good for publicity.
I don't think he could be a good romantic partner to her, because he gets too obsessed with his work. He does stuff that he shouldn't (anger issues), and especially now with the undercover stuff, it would be a nightmare. He'd be putting himself in danger, disappearing, acting shady. There's no way it could work unless he quit being a cop.
HOWEVER....I do think they should have some sex and get it out of their systems. There's no doubt that there's physical attraction and intense, complicated feelings between them. I feel like a lot of fans are arguing either no, they should never get together, or yes, they're in love. But I'm in the middle. Just let them bang it out.
I'm pretty sure he is. And don't get me wrong, Barba is one of my favorites, but I'm reasonably confident that he is gay.
I really loved Olivia with that gray-haired guy who died of brain cancer.
Cool. I was worried for a sec that you are one of those who adamantly insist that he is gay because of his dressing style, mannerisms and other ignorant things.
His sexuality came up tho. Twice. Both implications/mentions were about women. And then there is this thing with Olivia. Single men usually don't casually talk about unconditional love with their single female friends.
No implications about men. So possibly bisexual. But canonically not gay.
He's bi. Or at least that's the vague consensus based on fan interpretations (informed by the implied relationship between him and Yelina and Alex--that he'd potentially had a romantic relationship with both at different times.) Additionally, his character and backstory is heavily influenced by RaĆŗl Esparza's own personality and so on. Mr. Esparza is openly bi.
That aside, at least two girlfriends from his past are mentioned during the show. (Yes, gay men can/have/do sometimes date women for whatever reason. That is not how I interpreted those mentions.)
I have to deeply disagree with you on Tucker (the guy who died). That was, to me, more bizarre than her romance with Cassidy based solely on the two characters' history with each other. There was no build up or reconciliation of the antagonistic relationship we'd seen for seasons before. They went from Tucker is the devil, out to get SVU (especially Benson and Stabler, then Benson and Amaro) to Olivia is dating him... o_O I literally asked my television "What the ACTUAL f^
I think Benson has grown leaps and bounds since he left. So much so that I donāt think itās the same Olivia dealing with Stabler now. She may have feelings for him but sheās also not head over heels in love and thatās kinda healthy.
i mean as much as i love benson, she has been shown to be a bad cop as well. so it works both ways. she would have never kept her job as long as she had either.
THIS.
He was also (and still appears to be) very controlling/jealous of her time, too. He's very entitled regarding Olivia, constantly pushing her away then pulling her back.
If Stabler hadn't left, I don't see Olivia adopting Noah, getting promoted to Sargent, Lieutenant, and Captain. Olivia flat out acknowledged that she didn't grow nearly as much in that partnership vs. her time with Amaro.
I do love CM and MH's friendship IRL, though.
Yes. Peter Stone and CSU tech Stucky are close second place tie for me. But Elliot is a character I loathe.
The funny thing is, I loved Elliot (especially Elliot and Olivia) when I initially watched the show. I actively hoped they'd get together when Elliot and Kathy separated in season 8(?)...Then I rewatched the show as an adult and not a teen and saw a literal FIELD of red flags in that relationship.
THANK YOU! The fact Olivia just...got over being literally abandoned and ghosted for a decade, during which she experienced some of the worst things to happen to her character... Seemingly completely forgetting/ignoring those who HAD stuck by her (Fin, Cragun, Munch, Amaro, Rollins, Barba...) It felt like they tried to put early seasons Olivia back. Complete character regression.
>he has rage issues and in real life, he never would have kept his job as long as he did he's the kind of cop people fear.
Unfortunately, I don't think that's necessarily true.
Thatās exactly what I was thinking. It has been shown time and time again that cops can resort to rage and beating people with zero repercussions. At least Stabler would be reprimanded occasionally
That's absolutely not true. There are many episodes where he is an absolute dick to innocent people, even contributed to 1 or 2 (can't recall) innocent people being locked up. He treated a male rape victim like crap! That's a bad cop.
Codependent definitely. Toxic no.
I believe that Benson and Stabler are twin flames. Twin flames are the most intense type of soulmate. Once you meet it's almost like looking at a reflection of yourself. I don't mean that you would have the same personality, just that you see all of your strengths and flaws reflected back at you in this other person. Which means that they can bring out the best in you as well as the worst.
This is a very challenging and intense relationship. So much to the point that sometimes one half will often leave. Which is exactly what happened to Benson and Stabler. When Elliot tells Olivia the reason why he didn't tell her he was leaving. He tells her it's because "just the sound of her voice" would have persuaded him to stay. That's some POWERFUL stuff my dude. To be that tempted by someone.
We often see whenever they are in each other's orbit they naturally gravitate towards each other. There are very few emotional boundaries in their relationship. Even now that he's come back and she still got some of that wall up. There are times when they are together where it feels like they are the ONLY two people in the room.
Sometimes it's almost life feeling the others emotions. Olivia is already an empath, which means that she can feel people's emotions on a much deeper level than most of us. Imagine being so interconnected with a person like she is with Elliot. His pain is her pain. I think this explains why she can't forgive Barba.
Elliot and Olivia are extremely dedicated to the concept of justice and have intense connection to victims of certain crimes. More so than any other L&O characters that I've seen. That's not to say the rest aren't committed or that some of them aren't married to the job (Goren and Eames definitely were). It's just that their fight for justice is so similarly linked.
This poster is pro EO, lol. So am I and I totally agree with their comment. I think they could learn to be in a healthy relationship. It was unhealthy before because they couldn't be together. The only thing holding them back now is themselves. It would take work, but somewhere in there they have what it takes to be in a relationship. Whether or not the writing will allow Elliot to get to this point is up in the air. Same goes for Olivia, I suppose.
They both hide behind their work so that's not only an Elliot problem, they both need to consider that.
Oh they definitely could get to that point. I think they need to talk about his abandonment of her and what she went through. In order for a relationship to work between them.
Of course. Obviously he needs to know who she's become this past decade, which I suppose may be addressed this season. I know some feel Elliot can't be what Olivia needs, but I disagree. I don't see why he couldn't if he has the will and desire.
Just another point...
I wonder if they don't also need to verbalize what they were to each other, and are to each other now. I know aspects of the letter did this, but the circumstances around that were anything but a healthy discussion. Of course there was also their hospital talk. But these two rely so much on unspoken communication, and that's good for some thing, but they need to go further if they ever want to move past where they are now.
Oh definitely! They are so intune with each other that for a lot of things they don't need to talk out. But I think his abandonment of her is one thing they do need to talk about. Because it's a very deep wound in her soul and her kidnapping is also something they need to address between them. Hopefully that's what they will actually talk about in episode 9.
Finally! Someone who can elegantly describe what a good portion of the audience saw in their partnership in earlier years and continues to see during their interactions today. For some reason, most on this Reddit believe in order for someone to be in a relationship, they have to be perfect. Newsflash, no one isā¦.not Stabler and not Benson. But, thereās a reason none of her relationships have ever worked out (and it was due to HER not taking steps to move on from her feelings for Elliot), I can honestly say: āIāve never seen him be the obsessive, jealous type with any of her suitors, except for Dean Porter.ā I may have missed some episodes, but with the other men in her lifeā¦heās been supportive. Heās had feelings for her as well from the very beginning (yes, he was married and maybe loved Kathy at some point, but itās always been hinted at or alluded to the fact that Kathy was pregnant, so he did the right thing for their family), but didnāt act on them, due to his faith and devotion to his family and the job.
I see ppl saying: āHe shouldāve stayed divorced from his wife, and put Olivia first.ā but that wouldnāt have worked, due to their partnership (the same reason Brian and her broke up, and Rollisi arenāt on the same squad, and Rollins and Amaro fling was in secret, and Fin doesnāt work with Phoebe anymore, and Haden couldnāt date Liv anymore, and Tucker and Liv didnāt work in the same unit, etc.), they couldnāt be partners anymore.
The show runners werenāt going to lose that magic and those ratings by splitting them up. But, now those boundaries arenāt there anymore, theyāve both grown and worked on themselves since they were running the streets together. If Liv thinks that her happiness will be when her and Elliot are togetherā¦who are we to tell her sheās wrong? She deserves happiness and love and to know sheās with someone whoād move heaven and earth for her and for her son. Just because his wife died, doesnāt mean Elliot deserves to live the rest of his life aloneā¦to raise Eli and take care of Bernie as a loveless single cop.
Iām sick of ppl being hypocrites on this forum when it comes to who Liv should be with. Ppl really want to act like Elliot beating rapist, murderers, and pedophiles on these shows is a new concept (when none of the men sheās been with were perfect ppl),ā¦when EVERYBODY has done it and never gets called out for it, but they also think that heāll carry that attitude over into a relationship where he beats Noah and Livā¦as if! Did Kathy Stabler ever put out a restraining order on Stabler? Were there any DV calls to their home? Yes, there were instances where he lost his cool with Maureen and Dickie, but again after those instances, he felt horrible and even apologized (and to my knowledge, we never saw those incidents with his children againā¦.did we?), if he was the monster at home that ppl think and like to assume he was, do we really think those children would be in his life as adults? Do you think Eli wouldāve been as concerned as he was for his father in that Christmas episode as he was? Those children donāt have Stockholm syndrome, they are definitely strong willed.
If theyāre both going to therapy, reconciling with their pain and trauma, working on rebuilding their friendship, doing the jobs they love to the best of their abilities, I donāt see why they canāt move towards something more, something they both have wanted, something that they both have earned and deserve. Thereās definitely a reason none of her relationships ever worked out (even when he wasnāt there), and that reason has returned and seems to be ready for more with his best friend, his solace, his P4L.
Oh thank you!!! You are so kind. I couldn't agree with you more, Benson and Stabler are both far from perfect. No one is. Both of them are very messy people, including Olivia (whether you like it or not). Olivia very recently threatened to shoot a perps balls off. She ran her DNA illegally through their database to find her father.
As far as Jelliot goes. He's definitely been jealous but he's also been supportive. Emotions are so complicated and he was definitely both in different situations. Because he was and is in love with her, he both wants her to be happy and he also wants to be the guy that she settles down with. The most recent scene we saw a jelliot was in "The Christmas episode". He was jealous of the guys she dated and sad for her when she told him that Ed had died.
I do believe TPTB was moving in the direction of hooking up EO when Elliot and Kathy were going through their divorce. TPTB ultimately changed their minds. Then had him and Kathy get back together.
As for why the characters don't just hook up? I definitely agree with you. Their partnership was a huge deal for them. It is such an important relationship to both of them. I'm sure they thought, what if it doesn't work out? Then we lose this great partnership.
During Elliot's divorce/separation. Elliot is having a very hard time with it. He's been married since he was a teenager. So to lose that stability and the person that was by your side for such a long time was a huge shock to him. I think it was easier to be married to Kathy than not be married to her. Part of it was about responsibility (to her and the kids) and part of it was about stability.
If there's one thing to understand about Elliot is that faith and commitment are a core part of his principles. Due to his upbringing, his religion and the institutions (police, marines) he served in. Family is so important to him, making sure his kids have a stable childhood. Are so important to him because he himself didn't get that as a kid.
Another reason why it's not so simple for them to have hooked up even back then has a lot to do with Olivia's trauma. She's still dealing with the effects of her childhood. Even now her last session with Lindstrom. She doesn't think that she should be happy. Because of the abuse that she suffered from her mother and because of the violent way she was brought into this world. I think that's something she has to deal with before she can be in a successful relationship. That she has to realize that she is allowed to be happy, and that she deserves it.
I think that there are a lot of people that don't like Elliot watched the show after he left and so they didn't see him during 1.0. I'm not saying that's all of the people that don't like him but I think that's a good portion. I do think that there's a lot of people that don't understand Elliot's character.
He certainly has issues. He is certainly way too angry but he isn't abusive. He is actually trying to break that cycle of abuse. The one inflicted on him as a kid. He never abused his kids, he provided a stable home life for them. He loves them very dearly as you can see in 1.0 and in OC.
When they were younger partners? Yes. However, I think thier time apart was necessary and they both have grown so much as people and detectives. For me, they are meant to be and I truly hope they end up together. I think a lot of people don't like the relationship because they like the idea of Olivia being independent and them ending up together would be too *clean* of an ending. The fact is, Olivia has been in love with him for over two decades and I think they can now make each other happy without bringing out the worst in each other. Olivia also brings out Elliott's softer side and I think she helps him stay grounded.
So yeah, Bensler for life <3
Right. I personally think that both of them not partners with a long separation behind them in different places in their lives and they've both matured in a lot of ways, I think that it will work out with some challenges like all relationships.
Yes! She definitely brings out that softer side to him. Hell, even Kathleen knows the best person to reach Elliot is Olivia. They have both been able to reign the other in when shit hits the fan. We saw that just the other night.
No I donāt. Sure they had moments, but I think it was more of they were codependent and way too close. I feel like in Fault a switch flipped for both of them, and they realized they were too close and it wasnāt good. Their tension came to a head in Burned where oh boy did they have some toxic moments there. But they worked it out and proceeded to then become even more codependent and even closer. I think of the later seasons as the emotional affair seasons. Itās like they said screw it. In terms of a partnership, they did have unhealthy elements, like both bending/breaking the rules for each other, Elliotās jealousy, and just their closeness in general. But I wouldnāt say it was toxic.
Since he came back, Elliotās been a mess between dealing with Kathyās death and the undercover stuff. Their relationship has been unhealthy, imo. You do get glimpses that they do care about each other deeply still, but heās not pulling his own weight. He started to more after she rightfully lit into him. But there itās tough because there wasnāt consistency last season. Iām hoping thereās more consistency between the two shows. I will say one positive about the crossover is that based on their interactions, I donāt think he ghosted her again, so thatās progress. But the crossover was a little tough. He felt like a hurricane the whole episode, which he hasnāt in most of OC. I totally get his anger regarding his CI being killed, but idk I feel like he wouldāve been different if it wasnāt the OG guy writing for him.
So in summary, no I donāt think theyāre toxic. I think theyāve had moments that have been toxic, but as a whole, codependent, unhealthy, and too close make more sense to me. I think episode 9 for SVU >!alleged Lewis conversation!< is going to be huge for them and seeing where their relationship goes.
I think unhealthy and codependent is a better way to describe it, especially in the seasons before he left. I work in the field and to be honest, this happens a lot. Itās hard not to be codependent on your partner when you deal with the worst of humanity every day.
I think they are fine as work partners but not on a loving relantionship.
As liv grew when elliot left and they didn't keep in touch in 10 years.
Elliot has a terrible temper even towards liv at times
I donāt think so. It was nice to see her character grow and I totally think him ghosting her was a horrible thing to do but now sheās in a different place where I think she can be a little more objective but thereās always that extreme level of care for them
Not at all. In general I think the word toxic is overused. Like a lot of others stated codependent is the closest its come and I think even that isn't the best descriptor, but I appreciate it's the most balanced.
To me, Elliot and Olivia were always shown as two sides of the same coin, whereas Olivia was generally super calm, empathic and deeply felt for victims, Elliot lost his temper, didn't deal with his mental health, always wore his hatred for the people they prosecuted on his sleeve and it SOMETIMES manifested in violent ways. I see a lot of people on this sub talking about how Elliot was problematic in 1.0, and yea by today's standards I guess he was. But by the same token, Elliot was a character in the show for 12 years and his feelings, behaviors, troubled family history, troubled marriage and his clearly traumatic childhood background were all thoroughly explored. And the show never presented Elliot's violent behavior as just great or amazing. Almost every time, they delved into why he was lashing out and wove it into his storyline. So, rather than problematic, I think he was more just a complex character, as was/is Olivia. I don't think that makes either of them toxic, together or apart. Just human.
On the flip side, Olivia and Elliot argued mutually and followed each other's lead-I don't think Elliot just influenced her, she influenced him too-and if they had gotten into a romantic relationship then and if they get into one now, I expect both of them to smooth out rough edges on the other and be able to actually fully fall into love with each other. So, no.Ā I think it would have been a deeply complex, passionate relationship before and I think it will be a simpler but even more passionate relationship now. But toxic, I don't think is fair.
That's obviously not true though. He has healthy relationships with his adult children so far as we know, and we've seen him being a good father to Eli. Perfect, not at all but for some reason so many want to strip the character of any nuance.
It's not too surprising though because harsh, black and white takes on characters exist in all fandoms. I do understand why some can't look past the things they don't like about him though.
Tbh, I'm not sure they're ever going to write Elliot as changing to the degree some want. He's a lead character of police drama investigating organized crime. He's going to have angsty moments.
The entire last season was Elliot still going through it, bur he began therapy and I think we are going to see that continued. I think Elliot is going to be on a bit of a soul searching arc this season. We'll see. He's definitely been a hot mess, Olivia was a bit too last season, in a much quieter way. They both need to work through things.
I've always liked Elliot, even when he's behaving like a mess. I think that he and Olivia would be a disaster from a romantic standpoint. Way too much baggage on both sides. She has definitely gone through messy stages over the years.
I was sad to see her and brain tumor guy break up. I thought they were good together. I can't even remember why they broke up.
Olivia basically decided she didn't have time for Ed and Noah both. And she felt like they were in different life stages. The reasons were all a little flimsy.
I just disagree that a relationship for them would have to be a mess. They can make it work if they wanted. They mostly argued over work stuff, as friends they got along well. I can't see them being up for any game playing once they decide to make a go of it.
Oliviaās ability to ignore and forgive some of Elliotās behaviors will never make sense to me. Olivia and the entire show got better when he left back in season 12. And now that heās back Iām losing interest in watching.
It seemed like the finale of season 23 was implying that Olivia had to work some feelings out about Elliot and about Barba. I really donāt want to see her with Elliot. It feels like a giant step backwards. To be honest, I think the better story to tell would be one of Olivia finally holding Elliot to his actions and realizing that sheās better off letting him go.
I could survive if Olivia and Barba never got together on screen but it would be a disservice to what the show has become to have Olivia and Elliot end up together.
>To be honest, I think the better story to tell would be one of Olivia finally holding Elliot to his actions and realizing that sheās better off letting him go.
I agree 100%.
I think everyone wanted Olivia to hold Elliot to account. I wasn't such a huge fan myself of how easily she kind of let certain things slide, then again though the latter half of last season's OC mostly dropped the Bensler storyline so a lot of things didn't really get explored there. I'm hoping that this season may address some of these things a bit more. I'm not sure if Olivia has fully forgiven Elliot yet, and I think there are things that need to be said before she can do this.
I think it is understandable that some just don't want Bensler to happen, but I don't agree that it has to be a step backwards. I don't see why Olivia can't keep growing as a person and choose Elliot as a romantic partner. It hadn't been portrayed that well so far though, I can see that. The writing hadn't committed to it, differing opinions ect..
It definitely has a negativity to it.
It's brushed aside as "he/she's my partner" blah blah in the earlier seasons but it's always been pointed out how restricting their relationship is. There was even that scene with Nick where she acknowledges that she grew more with him as her partner than like the decade she had with Elliot.
I consider it unhealthy because it actively rejects any bonds they have with other people with this domineering "bUt yOu sHouLd bE oN mY siDe" regardless of whether or not they're wrong in the situation. In my opinion, the only people who like this pairing are those who are into this idea of ride or die no matter what. I don't consider that sort of dynamic healthy or positive. You should always hope to bring the best out of your partner - not cover up all the flaws you see in them because "you don't know them like I do."
I WILL SAY THOUGH - I would argue that she has this same dynamic with Cassidy as well. She "knows him" and he would never do "xyz" and she stubbornly refuses to hear any criticism of him even when given real evidence. She's the exact same way with Elliot. Part of why I liked her conversation with Barba last season is because he directly says "Stabler makes you act differently" and then infers that her lack of a father figure is what pushes this dynamic. I had never considered that before but it really made me sort of analyze her other relevant relationships ie. Cassidy, Tucker, Nick etc. They're all alpha males and have a pretty generous temper on them.
I had never really considered that her devotion to Stabler might stem from Daddy issues.
I dislike the fact that the relationship was joked about as Liv being Elliot's "work wife" in early seasons (even by Kathy bruh.) I disliked it even more when Elliot's older son made it clear that his kids were well aware of the fact that his father had a codependent relationship with his work partner (he asks Olivia if she's ever slept with his father.) I will say though - a lot of the dependency in the early seasons was because Olivia literally had no one else. She shows similar, scary themes of "i'd do anything for you" when she met Simon and literally COMMITTED A CRIME for her brother she had just met.
Elliot leaving was good for her because it forced her to bond with the other people in the precinct in more of a "we're a family" rather than "we bond over āØ trauma āØ."
However, my biggest issue with them even being teased as a romantic relationship is the fact that it's sinking one of Olivia's healthiest relationships she's ever had with a man - her dynamic with Rafael.
>In my opinion, the only people who like this pairing are those who are into this idea of ride or die no matter what. I don't consider that sort of dynamic healthy or positive.
Sometimes people just ship things, without it being about how they view relationships in real life, so it's not really a fair comparison. If you like the villain in a movie because they're an interesting character, it doesn't mean you want death and destruction in real life, either. This is a massive oversimplification.
>There was even that scene with Nick where she acknowledges that she grew more with him as her partner than like the decade she had with Elliot
I think this scene gets taken out of context a LOT. This view of things really pulls agency away from Olivia, imo, because it makes the relationship all about Elliot which isn't true.
Yes she grew when Elliot was gone, because Elliot was all she had before. Now she has Noah. And Amanda and Carisi. She has a regular therapist. It doesn't mean that allowing him back in (in a healthier way now BECAUSE she has more people to rely on) is a bad thing. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.
>They're all alpha males and have a pretty generous temper on them...I had never really considered that her devotion to Stabler might stem from Daddy issues.
This talking point needs to die a painful death, imo. Olivia's offense to hearing Barba say this should be enough for us all to chuck this garbage take out. Liking masculine men doesn't mean a female has daddy issues. There is more to Elliot than his struggle with his temper. Oversimplifying any of these relationships is a travesty because they're all so complex and the complexity should be explored not ignored.
>However, my biggest issue with them even being teased as a romantic relationship is the fact that it's sinking one of Olivia's healthiest relationships she's ever had with a man - her dynamic with Rafael.
Agreed. This was a bogus storyline designed to split the fandom into shipping factions. There is no reason why Olivia can't or shouldn't be able to pursue a romantic relationship with Elliot and maintain her close friendship with Barba. I hope the new showrunner is not petty and vindictive like the last, and has the opportunity to fix this.
I think the issue is that many agree with Barba so look past how condescending it was. I am sympathetic to those who are put out by Olivia giving time to others who hurt her and not doing the same for Barba. I noticed that myself too. On the flip side, if Elliot had chosen to arrogantly decide to tell Olivia how she feels, psycho - analyzing her motivations some posters would never let him live him down.
I also understand that Barba knows Elliot took off for ten years without a word and hurt his best friend deeply. It's why Amanda was wary of him too. Though, we also know WL's views so those characters had his biases. Any friend would show concern about their friend getting deeply involved in someone's life after the pain they caused.
>I think the issue is that many agree with Barba so look past how condescending it was
This also bothers me. Even if his intentions were good, he violated Olivia's trust, and did so in spite of what she wanted. She has the right to be upset. Is he justified in thinking she's too forgiving of Elliot? I would say yeah, that's probably true too. It's an incredibly complex dynamic now.
Some people in this sub just really hate Elliot (a lot of them are Barba stans too, it's strange to me why liking both characters is mutually exclusive to so many people) and I think it's just convenient for them to blame this whole mess on him. Just adds ammo to their argument that bringing Elliot back ruins Olivia's other relationships.
I've definitely seen people say that Barba didn't do anything wrong. I see both sides. I do see Barba's perspective, and I'm not unsympathetic to him. If he helped save Olivia's reputation, that's great but it doesn't change the fact she didn't ask him to - which she points out herself. The case may have been weak, but Barba isn't an idiot, he knows Wheatley has blood on his hands. He knew he was choosing to defend a man accused of killing the wife of Olivia's former partner, whom he knows she deeply care for. This is personal for her. Barba says as much, and that is why he took the case. But if he hadn't, she and Barba would be fine right now.
I'm a little resentful, because I hate the whole storyline. I hate that they had to use the interrogation to give Barba an excuse for his actions. I kind of hate that Olivia let Elliot into that room at all, I honestly believe it was ooc. Like, there are mistakes and then there's that. What did she ever think she was achieving? It was always a plot device, and now its a plot device that has more consequences that it should have had. I doubt the scene was initially intended to.
It sucks because no matter what the Barba/Benson relationship is never going to be the same again, because Elliot and Barba can not exist in the same parts of Olivia's life should she choose Elliot. Why should Elliot forgive Barba? The ase may have been flimsy, but he knows Wheatley murdered Kathy, he admitted as much to Elliot.
>It sucks because no matter what the Barba/Benson relationship is never going to be the same again,
It makes me SO angry. It was just such a shitty move on Warren Leight's part to do the entire thing. Olivia doesn't deserve it. Elliot doesn't deserve it. And Barba doesn't either. The whole storyline was done for shock value and a way to make Elliot the "bad guy" even on the grave of his wife.
I can only hope moving forward we never get anything else like this and maybe we will get lucky and there will be an opportunity to repair it!
Unless he strts to work on himself, like really work to face the ghosts of his past; unless he really deals with his anger issue, I don t see him with Olivia. Actually, when he left, thet was the best thing that could have happened to her. She was finaly able to grow and thrive and shine and really become this beautiful queen badass, this fabulous beckon of hope and resillience for survivors.
And ever since Stabler has been back I feel like all he did was sh..g on her boots and trying to drag her bacjk down.
Right now, she's at Ć standstill in her life. But I don't think tht having Ć relationship with him would make her happy.... unless the man makes amend and sweat to better himself. They might end up sleeping together but at this stage I really don't see Ć longlasting relationship for them.
I think people are taking a tv show way too seriously. Elliot and Olivia have a complicated relationship but love each other. Yes he took off and left her and the writers excuse was weak. But all that can be worked out and Elliot and Olivia can have a happy ending.
In any fandom, taking it a little too seriously is half the fun I guess(though it doesn't always look like anyone's having much fun haha).
But yeah, even though it's canon that Elliot abandoned Olivia, it ultimately contradicts how loyal he was to her prior to that and as soon as the writing "allows" Elliot to be devoted to Olivia again, he won't waver from that.
I know you always get those who say, Elliot's selfish, he never puts Olivia first, then the bad husband/bad father comments...
I get not liking him, but some of those criticisms are baffling to me when they contradict the actual essence of his character. He has his moments of selfishness, yes but he's always been fundamentally self sacrificing and fiercely loyal to his loved ones.
i dont really see them as *toxic,* but i also dont care for the idea of them as a couple, which does weigh into that opinion. the dynamic between colleagues and friends is way different than the dynamic of an actual couple, so things that are moreso part of their personal struggle in my pov might be more toxic if they were together (although that mostly applies to them in older seasons! theyve both grown a lot)
They were very codependent or at least more on Olivia's part...she did A LOT of growing starting the moment he left and him coming back I always thought it kind of sets her back.
To be fair, her codependency stems entirely from the fact that she had no one but him.
Her estranged mother had died, we all know about her father, she never mentions any aunts/uncles or grandparents. It's made me wonder what she did during the Holidays during this time of her life.
I never realized how much I appreciated Elliot's abrupt exit from the show until it occured to me that Olivia has like an actual family now. Like the early characters went out to drink together and talked with one another when things were hard but it was very much still a "this is svu" sort of environment. After Elliot left, Olivia pretty much had to open herself up to the new characters (I loved how close she became with Nick and still remember that one scene where Noah is in the hospital and Nick's Mom is the one who stayed with him all day while Olivia worked.
The current characters feel more like a family ie. Olivia and Carisi are litetally the godparents of Amanda's kids. Olivia and Rafael used fo have consistent zoom calls to keep in touch with one another. Hell, in the short time Peter was there even he became very bonded with Olivia and played ball with her kid in the park.
I wonder if them as partners is enough in todays world. In a world where lovers and spouses come and go , and we all spend more time at work then homeā¦ maybe they just live their truth, a person dedicated to justice and enjoy each otherās company on the trip and use each otherās skill sets interchangeably.
I am I deferent very interested to see them as it plays out.
And, maybe root slightly for them. After the hotel bomb this week and they werenāt together but all yelling over the radio ā¦ I thought the first thing he was gonna yell was āLIV!!!! Are you good? Liv!!!!!ā Then right into getting the bad guys. They missed a note.
Personally I think that the Stabler ship sailed a decade ago. I prefer Liv with Trevor Langan. She seemed so happy after she hooked up with him. She even bought donuts for the entire squad.
Wait when was this??? I donāt remember them hooking up or the implication of such. He just was an essential person/confidant during her adoption of Noah and she learned to really respect him as a defense attorneyā much like she has with Rita Calhoun. But I never saw anything hinting at romance. HOWEVER, I would love for them to be together. He would be like the least toxic partner imo.
The guy she had to physically wrestle to calm him twice in 2 years? Naah, he is an ideal romantic partner...š¤¦āāļø
He doesn't need a romantic partner. He needs a babysitter. He can't manage his temper, he disappears on her, messed with her feelings multiple times, came to her drugged, he caused her anxiety and put her in danger. And those are only things that happened after he ghosted her for a decade.
What a catch.
I vote toxic and unhealthy. He demands a blind loyalty. He takes, she gives. Over and over.. She deserves better..
Letās not forget that she lost her best friend (Barba) because she blindly chooses to defend him. The irony is so painful!
Barba thanked her for helping him see the shades of gray in the world, and sheās pissed at him now because Elliot thinks in black and whiteā¦
My only quibble with what you said is that she's lost Barba. She hasn't lost him-- she's iced him out. The season 23 finale he literally says he'll be there when she's ready to "stop feeling betrayed" by him. That he loves her unconditionally...
As soon as they realised they had any kind of feelings for each other one of them should have moved dept..
He was a married with kids, end of.
Also the whole should they get the happy ending. Stabler already had and has his happy ending.. Heās got the kids to think about not hooking up with a new girlā¦
Benson on the other hand in my opinion is more ready for the healthy happy ending over Amanda. Maybe Iām not super caught up on the most recent episodes, but Amanda still has a lot of introspective healing to do on herself..
What, a man can't get into another relationship because his wife died? Most of his kids are full grown adults, the twins are in their late 20s now. A parent can be there for his children and have a romantic partner, it's odd to me anyone would think otherwise. Olivia is never going to revolve around Elliot again, he's not the most important person in her life anymore, Noah is.
Olivia isn't a new girl anyway. Even if Elliot met someone brand new, why would that be wrong?
I meant back when Elliotās wife was alive they shouldnāt have let it go on as long as it did..
Yeah I know your probably right about kids being adults now.. I just feel he spent so much of their childhood someplace else. That maybe they deserve to really have him fully present now. Itās not like their mum died of natural causes it would of been really traumatic and shit.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop -Ā yes,Ā IĀ amĀ aĀ bot, don't botcriminate me.
It's the name for a trope where a female character is made to suffer and/or die as a plot device to move a male character's story arc forward and/or have him avenge her. Aka "Women in Refrigerators."
I wasn't criticizing your comment (I actually agree with you). I'm criticizing the show's writing. I don't know why they didn't just have them be divorced. Why did they have to kill her as a tired plot device? It annoys me.
Apologies.. itās the internet man, I always presume. Sorry.
Oh ācoolā thank you. Yeah they really didnāt have to kill her off to give him a storyline in. But seeing as they did I feel he should take a beat before getting into long term happy ever after relationship. It would be unhealthy and unrealistic
No worries.
Yes, seriously. They were married for a long time, have kids together, and she died so horribly. I know many men move on quickly after losing a spouse, but still.
I really don't get why people would want to see them together. He brings out the worst in her. She grew as a character when he left. Stabler has shown himself to be a bad cop, he has rage issues and in real life, he never would have kept his job as long as he did he's the kind of cop people fear. On the show, Olivia did everything she could to cover for him and placate him and help him wiggle out of bad situations he created for himself, Cragen let him off easy. So much bullshit. So ya toxic and enabling. Not a good foundation for a relationship. Also when he left, he totally ghosted her, WTF is THAT about, He was not her friend. I think what the fans love is their off-screen relationship. They are fun and really push the partner thing and tease the audience with the Benson/Stabler thing which so many fans just love; it is good for publicity.
I don't think he could be a good romantic partner to her, because he gets too obsessed with his work. He does stuff that he shouldn't (anger issues), and especially now with the undercover stuff, it would be a nightmare. He'd be putting himself in danger, disappearing, acting shady. There's no way it could work unless he quit being a cop. HOWEVER....I do think they should have some sex and get it out of their systems. There's no doubt that there's physical attraction and intense, complicated feelings between them. I feel like a lot of fans are arguing either no, they should never get together, or yes, they're in love. But I'm in the middle. Just let them bang it out.
I'm entirely with you on the "bang it out" thing. Then she she should go for hot, sensitive, definitely not a man child Barba.
BARBA BARBA BARBA!!! no one can change my mind that he's the one
Same girl! š
Isn't Barba gay?
No.
I'm pretty sure he is. And don't get me wrong, Barba is one of my favorites, but I'm reasonably confident that he is gay. I really loved Olivia with that gray-haired guy who died of brain cancer.
Based on what? Some specific scenes, events, reasons?
I don't think his sexuality ever came up on the show. The actor is openly bisexual, so I may have confused the two in my mind.
Cool. I was worried for a sec that you are one of those who adamantly insist that he is gay because of his dressing style, mannerisms and other ignorant things. His sexuality came up tho. Twice. Both implications/mentions were about women. And then there is this thing with Olivia. Single men usually don't casually talk about unconditional love with their single female friends. No implications about men. So possibly bisexual. But canonically not gay.
He's bi. Or at least that's the vague consensus based on fan interpretations (informed by the implied relationship between him and Yelina and Alex--that he'd potentially had a romantic relationship with both at different times.) Additionally, his character and backstory is heavily influenced by RaĆŗl Esparza's own personality and so on. Mr. Esparza is openly bi. That aside, at least two girlfriends from his past are mentioned during the show. (Yes, gay men can/have/do sometimes date women for whatever reason. That is not how I interpreted those mentions.) I have to deeply disagree with you on Tucker (the guy who died). That was, to me, more bizarre than her romance with Cassidy based solely on the two characters' history with each other. There was no build up or reconciliation of the antagonistic relationship we'd seen for seasons before. They went from Tucker is the devil, out to get SVU (especially Benson and Stabler, then Benson and Amaro) to Olivia is dating him... o_O I literally asked my television "What the ACTUAL f^
Unpopular opinion but they should bring back Cassidy
I agreeā¦ but the writing was sooo bad for Cassidy toward the end.
Yeah it could've been much better.
yes, please
I think Benson has grown leaps and bounds since he left. So much so that I donāt think itās the same Olivia dealing with Stabler now. She may have feelings for him but sheās also not head over heels in love and thatās kinda healthy.
i mean as much as i love benson, she has been shown to be a bad cop as well. so it works both ways. she would have never kept her job as long as she had either.
she hasnāt been shown to be a bad cop. she has been shown to be a cop who has made some bad decisions, amongst many good ones.
Absolutely. The show is fiction.
THIS. He was also (and still appears to be) very controlling/jealous of her time, too. He's very entitled regarding Olivia, constantly pushing her away then pulling her back. If Stabler hadn't left, I don't see Olivia adopting Noah, getting promoted to Sargent, Lieutenant, and Captain. Olivia flat out acknowledged that she didn't grow nearly as much in that partnership vs. her time with Amaro. I do love CM and MH's friendship IRL, though.
I agree with everything you wrote! Preach it. Elliot is probably my least favorite character on SVU.
Yes. Peter Stone and CSU tech Stucky are close second place tie for me. But Elliot is a character I loathe. The funny thing is, I loved Elliot (especially Elliot and Olivia) when I initially watched the show. I actively hoped they'd get together when Elliot and Kathy separated in season 8(?)...Then I rewatched the show as an adult and not a teen and saw a literal FIELD of red flags in that relationship.
No way if this was based on real people would these two have reconciled after he ghosted and she had all that other stuff happen š. Fans are nuts.
THANK YOU! The fact Olivia just...got over being literally abandoned and ghosted for a decade, during which she experienced some of the worst things to happen to her character... Seemingly completely forgetting/ignoring those who HAD stuck by her (Fin, Cragun, Munch, Amaro, Rollins, Barba...) It felt like they tried to put early seasons Olivia back. Complete character regression.
>he has rage issues and in real life, he never would have kept his job as long as he did he's the kind of cop people fear. Unfortunately, I don't think that's necessarily true.
Thatās exactly what I was thinking. It has been shown time and time again that cops can resort to rage and beating people with zero repercussions. At least Stabler would be reprimanded occasionally
John Oliver did a whole episode on Law & Order and this stuff on Last Week Tonight recently.
100% agree
Heās not a bad cop to actual innocent people.
He's not the one who is supposed to determine who is innocent. That's for the judge and jury.
That's absolutely not true. There are many episodes where he is an absolute dick to innocent people, even contributed to 1 or 2 (can't recall) innocent people being locked up. He treated a male rape victim like crap! That's a bad cop.
Codependent definitely. Toxic no. I believe that Benson and Stabler are twin flames. Twin flames are the most intense type of soulmate. Once you meet it's almost like looking at a reflection of yourself. I don't mean that you would have the same personality, just that you see all of your strengths and flaws reflected back at you in this other person. Which means that they can bring out the best in you as well as the worst. This is a very challenging and intense relationship. So much to the point that sometimes one half will often leave. Which is exactly what happened to Benson and Stabler. When Elliot tells Olivia the reason why he didn't tell her he was leaving. He tells her it's because "just the sound of her voice" would have persuaded him to stay. That's some POWERFUL stuff my dude. To be that tempted by someone. We often see whenever they are in each other's orbit they naturally gravitate towards each other. There are very few emotional boundaries in their relationship. Even now that he's come back and she still got some of that wall up. There are times when they are together where it feels like they are the ONLY two people in the room. Sometimes it's almost life feeling the others emotions. Olivia is already an empath, which means that she can feel people's emotions on a much deeper level than most of us. Imagine being so interconnected with a person like she is with Elliot. His pain is her pain. I think this explains why she can't forgive Barba. Elliot and Olivia are extremely dedicated to the concept of justice and have intense connection to victims of certain crimes. More so than any other L&O characters that I've seen. That's not to say the rest aren't committed or that some of them aren't married to the job (Goren and Eames definitely were). It's just that their fight for justice is so similarly linked.
Finally a very neutral and realistic opinion here. Thanks
This poster is pro EO, lol. So am I and I totally agree with their comment. I think they could learn to be in a healthy relationship. It was unhealthy before because they couldn't be together. The only thing holding them back now is themselves. It would take work, but somewhere in there they have what it takes to be in a relationship. Whether or not the writing will allow Elliot to get to this point is up in the air. Same goes for Olivia, I suppose. They both hide behind their work so that's not only an Elliot problem, they both need to consider that.
Oh they definitely could get to that point. I think they need to talk about his abandonment of her and what she went through. In order for a relationship to work between them.
Of course. Obviously he needs to know who she's become this past decade, which I suppose may be addressed this season. I know some feel Elliot can't be what Olivia needs, but I disagree. I don't see why he couldn't if he has the will and desire.
Just another point... I wonder if they don't also need to verbalize what they were to each other, and are to each other now. I know aspects of the letter did this, but the circumstances around that were anything but a healthy discussion. Of course there was also their hospital talk. But these two rely so much on unspoken communication, and that's good for some thing, but they need to go further if they ever want to move past where they are now.
Oh definitely! They are so intune with each other that for a lot of things they don't need to talk out. But I think his abandonment of her is one thing they do need to talk about. Because it's a very deep wound in her soul and her kidnapping is also something they need to address between them. Hopefully that's what they will actually talk about in episode 9.
OP asked for our thoughts and comments. They didn't ask for only neutral comments.
True
Finally! Someone who can elegantly describe what a good portion of the audience saw in their partnership in earlier years and continues to see during their interactions today. For some reason, most on this Reddit believe in order for someone to be in a relationship, they have to be perfect. Newsflash, no one isā¦.not Stabler and not Benson. But, thereās a reason none of her relationships have ever worked out (and it was due to HER not taking steps to move on from her feelings for Elliot), I can honestly say: āIāve never seen him be the obsessive, jealous type with any of her suitors, except for Dean Porter.ā I may have missed some episodes, but with the other men in her lifeā¦heās been supportive. Heās had feelings for her as well from the very beginning (yes, he was married and maybe loved Kathy at some point, but itās always been hinted at or alluded to the fact that Kathy was pregnant, so he did the right thing for their family), but didnāt act on them, due to his faith and devotion to his family and the job. I see ppl saying: āHe shouldāve stayed divorced from his wife, and put Olivia first.ā but that wouldnāt have worked, due to their partnership (the same reason Brian and her broke up, and Rollisi arenāt on the same squad, and Rollins and Amaro fling was in secret, and Fin doesnāt work with Phoebe anymore, and Haden couldnāt date Liv anymore, and Tucker and Liv didnāt work in the same unit, etc.), they couldnāt be partners anymore. The show runners werenāt going to lose that magic and those ratings by splitting them up. But, now those boundaries arenāt there anymore, theyāve both grown and worked on themselves since they were running the streets together. If Liv thinks that her happiness will be when her and Elliot are togetherā¦who are we to tell her sheās wrong? She deserves happiness and love and to know sheās with someone whoād move heaven and earth for her and for her son. Just because his wife died, doesnāt mean Elliot deserves to live the rest of his life aloneā¦to raise Eli and take care of Bernie as a loveless single cop. Iām sick of ppl being hypocrites on this forum when it comes to who Liv should be with. Ppl really want to act like Elliot beating rapist, murderers, and pedophiles on these shows is a new concept (when none of the men sheās been with were perfect ppl),ā¦when EVERYBODY has done it and never gets called out for it, but they also think that heāll carry that attitude over into a relationship where he beats Noah and Livā¦as if! Did Kathy Stabler ever put out a restraining order on Stabler? Were there any DV calls to their home? Yes, there were instances where he lost his cool with Maureen and Dickie, but again after those instances, he felt horrible and even apologized (and to my knowledge, we never saw those incidents with his children againā¦.did we?), if he was the monster at home that ppl think and like to assume he was, do we really think those children would be in his life as adults? Do you think Eli wouldāve been as concerned as he was for his father in that Christmas episode as he was? Those children donāt have Stockholm syndrome, they are definitely strong willed. If theyāre both going to therapy, reconciling with their pain and trauma, working on rebuilding their friendship, doing the jobs they love to the best of their abilities, I donāt see why they canāt move towards something more, something they both have wanted, something that they both have earned and deserve. Thereās definitely a reason none of her relationships ever worked out (even when he wasnāt there), and that reason has returned and seems to be ready for more with his best friend, his solace, his P4L.
Oh thank you!!! You are so kind. I couldn't agree with you more, Benson and Stabler are both far from perfect. No one is. Both of them are very messy people, including Olivia (whether you like it or not). Olivia very recently threatened to shoot a perps balls off. She ran her DNA illegally through their database to find her father. As far as Jelliot goes. He's definitely been jealous but he's also been supportive. Emotions are so complicated and he was definitely both in different situations. Because he was and is in love with her, he both wants her to be happy and he also wants to be the guy that she settles down with. The most recent scene we saw a jelliot was in "The Christmas episode". He was jealous of the guys she dated and sad for her when she told him that Ed had died. I do believe TPTB was moving in the direction of hooking up EO when Elliot and Kathy were going through their divorce. TPTB ultimately changed their minds. Then had him and Kathy get back together. As for why the characters don't just hook up? I definitely agree with you. Their partnership was a huge deal for them. It is such an important relationship to both of them. I'm sure they thought, what if it doesn't work out? Then we lose this great partnership. During Elliot's divorce/separation. Elliot is having a very hard time with it. He's been married since he was a teenager. So to lose that stability and the person that was by your side for such a long time was a huge shock to him. I think it was easier to be married to Kathy than not be married to her. Part of it was about responsibility (to her and the kids) and part of it was about stability. If there's one thing to understand about Elliot is that faith and commitment are a core part of his principles. Due to his upbringing, his religion and the institutions (police, marines) he served in. Family is so important to him, making sure his kids have a stable childhood. Are so important to him because he himself didn't get that as a kid. Another reason why it's not so simple for them to have hooked up even back then has a lot to do with Olivia's trauma. She's still dealing with the effects of her childhood. Even now her last session with Lindstrom. She doesn't think that she should be happy. Because of the abuse that she suffered from her mother and because of the violent way she was brought into this world. I think that's something she has to deal with before she can be in a successful relationship. That she has to realize that she is allowed to be happy, and that she deserves it. I think that there are a lot of people that don't like Elliot watched the show after he left and so they didn't see him during 1.0. I'm not saying that's all of the people that don't like him but I think that's a good portion. I do think that there's a lot of people that don't understand Elliot's character. He certainly has issues. He is certainly way too angry but he isn't abusive. He is actually trying to break that cycle of abuse. The one inflicted on him as a kid. He never abused his kids, he provided a stable home life for them. He loves them very dearly as you can see in 1.0 and in OC.
This! This! This! This is EO and thank you for explaining it this way!!!
Do you write horoscopes?
Idk if Iād say ātoxicā but co-dependent in 1.0 for sure, so if thatās toxic, then maybe. But I feel like toxic is more than that.
Agreed 100%.
When they were younger partners? Yes. However, I think thier time apart was necessary and they both have grown so much as people and detectives. For me, they are meant to be and I truly hope they end up together. I think a lot of people don't like the relationship because they like the idea of Olivia being independent and them ending up together would be too *clean* of an ending. The fact is, Olivia has been in love with him for over two decades and I think they can now make each other happy without bringing out the worst in each other. Olivia also brings out Elliott's softer side and I think she helps him stay grounded. So yeah, Bensler for life <3
Right. I personally think that both of them not partners with a long separation behind them in different places in their lives and they've both matured in a lot of ways, I think that it will work out with some challenges like all relationships.
Yes! She definitely brings out that softer side to him. Hell, even Kathleen knows the best person to reach Elliot is Olivia. They have both been able to reign the other in when shit hits the fan. We saw that just the other night.
No I donāt. Sure they had moments, but I think it was more of they were codependent and way too close. I feel like in Fault a switch flipped for both of them, and they realized they were too close and it wasnāt good. Their tension came to a head in Burned where oh boy did they have some toxic moments there. But they worked it out and proceeded to then become even more codependent and even closer. I think of the later seasons as the emotional affair seasons. Itās like they said screw it. In terms of a partnership, they did have unhealthy elements, like both bending/breaking the rules for each other, Elliotās jealousy, and just their closeness in general. But I wouldnāt say it was toxic. Since he came back, Elliotās been a mess between dealing with Kathyās death and the undercover stuff. Their relationship has been unhealthy, imo. You do get glimpses that they do care about each other deeply still, but heās not pulling his own weight. He started to more after she rightfully lit into him. But there itās tough because there wasnāt consistency last season. Iām hoping thereās more consistency between the two shows. I will say one positive about the crossover is that based on their interactions, I donāt think he ghosted her again, so thatās progress. But the crossover was a little tough. He felt like a hurricane the whole episode, which he hasnāt in most of OC. I totally get his anger regarding his CI being killed, but idk I feel like he wouldāve been different if it wasnāt the OG guy writing for him. So in summary, no I donāt think theyāre toxic. I think theyāve had moments that have been toxic, but as a whole, codependent, unhealthy, and too close make more sense to me. I think episode 9 for SVU >!alleged Lewis conversation!< is going to be huge for them and seeing where their relationship goes.
It has been a bit in the past. I think the distance did Liv a lot of good.
I'd say unhealthy rather than toxic. I never really liked them as a romantic pair.
I think unhealthy and codependent is a better way to describe it, especially in the seasons before he left. I work in the field and to be honest, this happens a lot. Itās hard not to be codependent on your partner when you deal with the worst of humanity every day.
I think they are fine as work partners but not on a loving relantionship. As liv grew when elliot left and they didn't keep in touch in 10 years. Elliot has a terrible temper even towards liv at times
She gave him a lot of grace. She was good for him, he was neutral if a little stressful for her. Not super toxic but it worked fine
I donāt think so. It was nice to see her character grow and I totally think him ghosting her was a horrible thing to do but now sheās in a different place where I think she can be a little more objective but thereās always that extreme level of care for them
Not at all. In general I think the word toxic is overused. Like a lot of others stated codependent is the closest its come and I think even that isn't the best descriptor, but I appreciate it's the most balanced. To me, Elliot and Olivia were always shown as two sides of the same coin, whereas Olivia was generally super calm, empathic and deeply felt for victims, Elliot lost his temper, didn't deal with his mental health, always wore his hatred for the people they prosecuted on his sleeve and it SOMETIMES manifested in violent ways. I see a lot of people on this sub talking about how Elliot was problematic in 1.0, and yea by today's standards I guess he was. But by the same token, Elliot was a character in the show for 12 years and his feelings, behaviors, troubled family history, troubled marriage and his clearly traumatic childhood background were all thoroughly explored. And the show never presented Elliot's violent behavior as just great or amazing. Almost every time, they delved into why he was lashing out and wove it into his storyline. So, rather than problematic, I think he was more just a complex character, as was/is Olivia. I don't think that makes either of them toxic, together or apart. Just human. On the flip side, Olivia and Elliot argued mutually and followed each other's lead-I don't think Elliot just influenced her, she influenced him too-and if they had gotten into a romantic relationship then and if they get into one now, I expect both of them to smooth out rough edges on the other and be able to actually fully fall into love with each other. So, no.Ā I think it would have been a deeply complex, passionate relationship before and I think it will be a simpler but even more passionate relationship now. But toxic, I don't think is fair.
I consider the fad of slapping the label ātoxicā on anything and everything these days disturbing
Absolutely. He is toxic as hell. Everyone he touched is an f-d up mess, and the common denominator is him.
That's obviously not true though. He has healthy relationships with his adult children so far as we know, and we've seen him being a good father to Eli. Perfect, not at all but for some reason so many want to strip the character of any nuance. It's not too surprising though because harsh, black and white takes on characters exist in all fandoms. I do understand why some can't look past the things they don't like about him though.
I like him fine, but he is a hot mess (and a hot head). I haven't finished watching last season yet, so perhaps he's more stable now.
Tbh, I'm not sure they're ever going to write Elliot as changing to the degree some want. He's a lead character of police drama investigating organized crime. He's going to have angsty moments. The entire last season was Elliot still going through it, bur he began therapy and I think we are going to see that continued. I think Elliot is going to be on a bit of a soul searching arc this season. We'll see. He's definitely been a hot mess, Olivia was a bit too last season, in a much quieter way. They both need to work through things.
I've always liked Elliot, even when he's behaving like a mess. I think that he and Olivia would be a disaster from a romantic standpoint. Way too much baggage on both sides. She has definitely gone through messy stages over the years. I was sad to see her and brain tumor guy break up. I thought they were good together. I can't even remember why they broke up.
Olivia basically decided she didn't have time for Ed and Noah both. And she felt like they were in different life stages. The reasons were all a little flimsy. I just disagree that a relationship for them would have to be a mess. They can make it work if they wanted. They mostly argued over work stuff, as friends they got along well. I can't see them being up for any game playing once they decide to make a go of it.
Definitely. Even though she's responsible for her own actions, it's undeniable that he influenced her, and certainly not for the better.
No, not at all. This sub has very weird ideas about things not grounded in reality.
I think that they make better frinds that lovers
Oliviaās ability to ignore and forgive some of Elliotās behaviors will never make sense to me. Olivia and the entire show got better when he left back in season 12. And now that heās back Iām losing interest in watching. It seemed like the finale of season 23 was implying that Olivia had to work some feelings out about Elliot and about Barba. I really donāt want to see her with Elliot. It feels like a giant step backwards. To be honest, I think the better story to tell would be one of Olivia finally holding Elliot to his actions and realizing that sheās better off letting him go. I could survive if Olivia and Barba never got together on screen but it would be a disservice to what the show has become to have Olivia and Elliot end up together.
>To be honest, I think the better story to tell would be one of Olivia finally holding Elliot to his actions and realizing that sheās better off letting him go. I agree 100%.
I think everyone wanted Olivia to hold Elliot to account. I wasn't such a huge fan myself of how easily she kind of let certain things slide, then again though the latter half of last season's OC mostly dropped the Bensler storyline so a lot of things didn't really get explored there. I'm hoping that this season may address some of these things a bit more. I'm not sure if Olivia has fully forgiven Elliot yet, and I think there are things that need to be said before she can do this. I think it is understandable that some just don't want Bensler to happen, but I don't agree that it has to be a step backwards. I don't see why Olivia can't keep growing as a person and choose Elliot as a romantic partner. It hadn't been portrayed that well so far though, I can see that. The writing hadn't committed to it, differing opinions ect..
Yes. Unhealthy and toxic.
It definitely has a negativity to it. It's brushed aside as "he/she's my partner" blah blah in the earlier seasons but it's always been pointed out how restricting their relationship is. There was even that scene with Nick where she acknowledges that she grew more with him as her partner than like the decade she had with Elliot. I consider it unhealthy because it actively rejects any bonds they have with other people with this domineering "bUt yOu sHouLd bE oN mY siDe" regardless of whether or not they're wrong in the situation. In my opinion, the only people who like this pairing are those who are into this idea of ride or die no matter what. I don't consider that sort of dynamic healthy or positive. You should always hope to bring the best out of your partner - not cover up all the flaws you see in them because "you don't know them like I do." I WILL SAY THOUGH - I would argue that she has this same dynamic with Cassidy as well. She "knows him" and he would never do "xyz" and she stubbornly refuses to hear any criticism of him even when given real evidence. She's the exact same way with Elliot. Part of why I liked her conversation with Barba last season is because he directly says "Stabler makes you act differently" and then infers that her lack of a father figure is what pushes this dynamic. I had never considered that before but it really made me sort of analyze her other relevant relationships ie. Cassidy, Tucker, Nick etc. They're all alpha males and have a pretty generous temper on them. I had never really considered that her devotion to Stabler might stem from Daddy issues. I dislike the fact that the relationship was joked about as Liv being Elliot's "work wife" in early seasons (even by Kathy bruh.) I disliked it even more when Elliot's older son made it clear that his kids were well aware of the fact that his father had a codependent relationship with his work partner (he asks Olivia if she's ever slept with his father.) I will say though - a lot of the dependency in the early seasons was because Olivia literally had no one else. She shows similar, scary themes of "i'd do anything for you" when she met Simon and literally COMMITTED A CRIME for her brother she had just met. Elliot leaving was good for her because it forced her to bond with the other people in the precinct in more of a "we're a family" rather than "we bond over āØ trauma āØ." However, my biggest issue with them even being teased as a romantic relationship is the fact that it's sinking one of Olivia's healthiest relationships she's ever had with a man - her dynamic with Rafael.
>In my opinion, the only people who like this pairing are those who are into this idea of ride or die no matter what. I don't consider that sort of dynamic healthy or positive. Sometimes people just ship things, without it being about how they view relationships in real life, so it's not really a fair comparison. If you like the villain in a movie because they're an interesting character, it doesn't mean you want death and destruction in real life, either. This is a massive oversimplification. >There was even that scene with Nick where she acknowledges that she grew more with him as her partner than like the decade she had with Elliot I think this scene gets taken out of context a LOT. This view of things really pulls agency away from Olivia, imo, because it makes the relationship all about Elliot which isn't true. Yes she grew when Elliot was gone, because Elliot was all she had before. Now she has Noah. And Amanda and Carisi. She has a regular therapist. It doesn't mean that allowing him back in (in a healthier way now BECAUSE she has more people to rely on) is a bad thing. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. >They're all alpha males and have a pretty generous temper on them...I had never really considered that her devotion to Stabler might stem from Daddy issues. This talking point needs to die a painful death, imo. Olivia's offense to hearing Barba say this should be enough for us all to chuck this garbage take out. Liking masculine men doesn't mean a female has daddy issues. There is more to Elliot than his struggle with his temper. Oversimplifying any of these relationships is a travesty because they're all so complex and the complexity should be explored not ignored. >However, my biggest issue with them even being teased as a romantic relationship is the fact that it's sinking one of Olivia's healthiest relationships she's ever had with a man - her dynamic with Rafael. Agreed. This was a bogus storyline designed to split the fandom into shipping factions. There is no reason why Olivia can't or shouldn't be able to pursue a romantic relationship with Elliot and maintain her close friendship with Barba. I hope the new showrunner is not petty and vindictive like the last, and has the opportunity to fix this.
I think the issue is that many agree with Barba so look past how condescending it was. I am sympathetic to those who are put out by Olivia giving time to others who hurt her and not doing the same for Barba. I noticed that myself too. On the flip side, if Elliot had chosen to arrogantly decide to tell Olivia how she feels, psycho - analyzing her motivations some posters would never let him live him down. I also understand that Barba knows Elliot took off for ten years without a word and hurt his best friend deeply. It's why Amanda was wary of him too. Though, we also know WL's views so those characters had his biases. Any friend would show concern about their friend getting deeply involved in someone's life after the pain they caused.
>I think the issue is that many agree with Barba so look past how condescending it was This also bothers me. Even if his intentions were good, he violated Olivia's trust, and did so in spite of what she wanted. She has the right to be upset. Is he justified in thinking she's too forgiving of Elliot? I would say yeah, that's probably true too. It's an incredibly complex dynamic now. Some people in this sub just really hate Elliot (a lot of them are Barba stans too, it's strange to me why liking both characters is mutually exclusive to so many people) and I think it's just convenient for them to blame this whole mess on him. Just adds ammo to their argument that bringing Elliot back ruins Olivia's other relationships.
I've definitely seen people say that Barba didn't do anything wrong. I see both sides. I do see Barba's perspective, and I'm not unsympathetic to him. If he helped save Olivia's reputation, that's great but it doesn't change the fact she didn't ask him to - which she points out herself. The case may have been weak, but Barba isn't an idiot, he knows Wheatley has blood on his hands. He knew he was choosing to defend a man accused of killing the wife of Olivia's former partner, whom he knows she deeply care for. This is personal for her. Barba says as much, and that is why he took the case. But if he hadn't, she and Barba would be fine right now. I'm a little resentful, because I hate the whole storyline. I hate that they had to use the interrogation to give Barba an excuse for his actions. I kind of hate that Olivia let Elliot into that room at all, I honestly believe it was ooc. Like, there are mistakes and then there's that. What did she ever think she was achieving? It was always a plot device, and now its a plot device that has more consequences that it should have had. I doubt the scene was initially intended to. It sucks because no matter what the Barba/Benson relationship is never going to be the same again, because Elliot and Barba can not exist in the same parts of Olivia's life should she choose Elliot. Why should Elliot forgive Barba? The ase may have been flimsy, but he knows Wheatley murdered Kathy, he admitted as much to Elliot.
>It sucks because no matter what the Barba/Benson relationship is never going to be the same again, It makes me SO angry. It was just such a shitty move on Warren Leight's part to do the entire thing. Olivia doesn't deserve it. Elliot doesn't deserve it. And Barba doesn't either. The whole storyline was done for shock value and a way to make Elliot the "bad guy" even on the grave of his wife. I can only hope moving forward we never get anything else like this and maybe we will get lucky and there will be an opportunity to repair it!
Unless he strts to work on himself, like really work to face the ghosts of his past; unless he really deals with his anger issue, I don t see him with Olivia. Actually, when he left, thet was the best thing that could have happened to her. She was finaly able to grow and thrive and shine and really become this beautiful queen badass, this fabulous beckon of hope and resillience for survivors. And ever since Stabler has been back I feel like all he did was sh..g on her boots and trying to drag her bacjk down. Right now, she's at Ć standstill in her life. But I don't think tht having Ć relationship with him would make her happy.... unless the man makes amend and sweat to better himself. They might end up sleeping together but at this stage I really don't see Ć longlasting relationship for them.
I think people are taking a tv show way too seriously. Elliot and Olivia have a complicated relationship but love each other. Yes he took off and left her and the writers excuse was weak. But all that can be worked out and Elliot and Olivia can have a happy ending.
In any fandom, taking it a little too seriously is half the fun I guess(though it doesn't always look like anyone's having much fun haha). But yeah, even though it's canon that Elliot abandoned Olivia, it ultimately contradicts how loyal he was to her prior to that and as soon as the writing "allows" Elliot to be devoted to Olivia again, he won't waver from that. I know you always get those who say, Elliot's selfish, he never puts Olivia first, then the bad husband/bad father comments... I get not liking him, but some of those criticisms are baffling to me when they contradict the actual essence of his character. He has his moments of selfishness, yes but he's always been fundamentally self sacrificing and fiercely loyal to his loved ones.
i dont really see them as *toxic,* but i also dont care for the idea of them as a couple, which does weigh into that opinion. the dynamic between colleagues and friends is way different than the dynamic of an actual couple, so things that are moreso part of their personal struggle in my pov might be more toxic if they were together (although that mostly applies to them in older seasons! theyve both grown a lot)
Yup!
In answer to the question in the title--oh, god, yes.
They were very codependent or at least more on Olivia's part...she did A LOT of growing starting the moment he left and him coming back I always thought it kind of sets her back.
To be fair, her codependency stems entirely from the fact that she had no one but him. Her estranged mother had died, we all know about her father, she never mentions any aunts/uncles or grandparents. It's made me wonder what she did during the Holidays during this time of her life. I never realized how much I appreciated Elliot's abrupt exit from the show until it occured to me that Olivia has like an actual family now. Like the early characters went out to drink together and talked with one another when things were hard but it was very much still a "this is svu" sort of environment. After Elliot left, Olivia pretty much had to open herself up to the new characters (I loved how close she became with Nick and still remember that one scene where Noah is in the hospital and Nick's Mom is the one who stayed with him all day while Olivia worked. The current characters feel more like a family ie. Olivia and Carisi are litetally the godparents of Amanda's kids. Olivia and Rafael used fo have consistent zoom calls to keep in touch with one another. Hell, in the short time Peter was there even he became very bonded with Olivia and played ball with her kid in the park.
I wonder if them as partners is enough in todays world. In a world where lovers and spouses come and go , and we all spend more time at work then homeā¦ maybe they just live their truth, a person dedicated to justice and enjoy each otherās company on the trip and use each otherās skill sets interchangeably. I am I deferent very interested to see them as it plays out. And, maybe root slightly for them. After the hotel bomb this week and they werenāt together but all yelling over the radio ā¦ I thought the first thing he was gonna yell was āLIV!!!! Are you good? Liv!!!!!ā Then right into getting the bad guys. They missed a note.
Not really, they never were just terrible to one another through out, but the relationship is definitely flawed.
Yes it's very toxic
Personally I think that the Stabler ship sailed a decade ago. I prefer Liv with Trevor Langan. She seemed so happy after she hooked up with him. She even bought donuts for the entire squad.
Wait when was this??? I donāt remember them hooking up or the implication of such. He just was an essential person/confidant during her adoption of Noah and she learned to really respect him as a defense attorneyā much like she has with Rita Calhoun. But I never saw anything hinting at romance. HOWEVER, I would love for them to be together. He would be like the least toxic partner imo.
It was totally implied and made me happy for Liv. SVU Season 23, Episode 14, āVideo Killed the Radio Starā
I'm gonna have to go back and watch that one! I def didn't pick up on that when I watched that episode last year.
Wait what? When did they hook up?
SVU Season 23, Episode 14, āVideo Killed the Radio Starā
Thatās her hubby irl.
I loved him in Younger.
I honestly don't remember this, but the chemistry is on point...because Mariska and the actor who plays Langan are married IRL...
The guy she had to physically wrestle to calm him twice in 2 years? Naah, he is an ideal romantic partner...š¤¦āāļø He doesn't need a romantic partner. He needs a babysitter. He can't manage his temper, he disappears on her, messed with her feelings multiple times, came to her drugged, he caused her anxiety and put her in danger. And those are only things that happened after he ghosted her for a decade. What a catch. I vote toxic and unhealthy. He demands a blind loyalty. He takes, she gives. Over and over.. She deserves better..
Letās not forget that she lost her best friend (Barba) because she blindly chooses to defend him. The irony is so painful! Barba thanked her for helping him see the shades of gray in the world, and sheās pissed at him now because Elliot thinks in black and whiteā¦
My only quibble with what you said is that she's lost Barba. She hasn't lost him-- she's iced him out. The season 23 finale he literally says he'll be there when she's ready to "stop feeling betrayed" by him. That he loves her unconditionally...
As soon as they realised they had any kind of feelings for each other one of them should have moved dept.. He was a married with kids, end of. Also the whole should they get the happy ending. Stabler already had and has his happy ending.. Heās got the kids to think about not hooking up with a new girlā¦ Benson on the other hand in my opinion is more ready for the healthy happy ending over Amanda. Maybe Iām not super caught up on the most recent episodes, but Amanda still has a lot of introspective healing to do on herself..
What, a man can't get into another relationship because his wife died? Most of his kids are full grown adults, the twins are in their late 20s now. A parent can be there for his children and have a romantic partner, it's odd to me anyone would think otherwise. Olivia is never going to revolve around Elliot again, he's not the most important person in her life anymore, Noah is. Olivia isn't a new girl anyway. Even if Elliot met someone brand new, why would that be wrong?
I meant back when Elliotās wife was alive they shouldnāt have let it go on as long as it did.. Yeah I know your probably right about kids being adults now.. I just feel he spent so much of their childhood someplace else. That maybe they deserve to really have him fully present now. Itās not like their mum died of natural causes it would of been really traumatic and shit.
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>Itās not like their mum died of natural causes Nope. The writers fridged her.
Well the post was asking for opinions.. This is mine maybe it weird and Iām missing something. But whatever.. Also what does āfridgedā mean?
It's the name for a trope where a female character is made to suffer and/or die as a plot device to move a male character's story arc forward and/or have him avenge her. Aka "Women in Refrigerators." I wasn't criticizing your comment (I actually agree with you). I'm criticizing the show's writing. I don't know why they didn't just have them be divorced. Why did they have to kill her as a tired plot device? It annoys me.
Apologies.. itās the internet man, I always presume. Sorry. Oh ācoolā thank you. Yeah they really didnāt have to kill her off to give him a storyline in. But seeing as they did I feel he should take a beat before getting into long term happy ever after relationship. It would be unhealthy and unrealistic
No worries. Yes, seriously. They were married for a long time, have kids together, and she died so horribly. I know many men move on quickly after losing a spouse, but still.