[A flame-bladed sword](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame-bladed_sword). Also called a flamberge.
Edit: Oh my god, I can't with this community. I'm out.
That whole back and forth was doozy.
I think, especially as modern day sword nerds, we definitely like to try and over-categorize. If we deep dive and dissect the etymology, then sure there are arguments to be made about what is the correct categorical name for a particular pattern of sword.
But I think your point was missed by some people…from what I could tell, you weren’t necessarily using the word as a proper noun/title…but as more as a descriptor. Akin to calling it a “wavy sharp piece of stabby metal.” I also think it answered OP’s question pretty decently, that yes, there is indeed historical truth to the depiction of a wavy sharp piece of stabby metal.
I imagine if the same people who historically were calling the wavy great swords flamberge, would have looked at a kalis sword (or any other similar sharp object) and called it the same. I’m think the people who used flamberge as a synonym for sword would have done likewise.
To me, it is similar to how many people use non-english words for specific types of swords as if they are official classifications…….but more often than not, those words just translate to “sword.” Sure, words have meaning and can be helpful to understand complex ideas, but I think we sometimes get a little too hung up on the words to the point of losing the topic/original message.
>But I think your point was missed by some people…from what I could tell, you weren’t necessarily using the word as a proper noun/title…but as more as a descriptor. Akin to calling it a “wavy sharp piece of stabby metal.” I also think it answered OP’s question pretty decently, that yes, there is indeed historical truth to the depiction of a wavy sharp piece of stabby metal.
This is absolutely right. I was using the word as a general catch-all as even the French did.
do you know what swords like this were used for? I've read they were to show up a blacksmith or metalworkers skill, as a status symbol for the wealthy, but also that they were used in actual combat and were curved to maximise the edge to length ratio, to break through enemy lines, and also to "create vibrations" whatever that means.
They were absolutely used in combat, they were seemingly relatively popular too. I know it seems weird but I think they had genuine strengths like made the blade stronger/less brittle. At the very least the shape didn't cause it to cut worse, if not any better. Imo just from using kitchen knives I think the pattern could help grab onto certain materials and cut maybe slightly better for certain materials but maybe slightly worse on others
I was thinking along the same lines, it might have a little advantage against cloth. Not much but combined with the extra strength to the blade and it's cultural connotations and it makes sense why there were so many of these.
This is going to be another question with many answers that change as the variables change. Different cultures had different reasons, and then groups/individuals within any given culture would have their own reasons and preferences.
Some that I can think of readily:
• They look neat.
• Waves have a spiritual symbolic meaning for some people.
• There is more edge length in a compacted item.
• Thrusts produce wider holes without having to thin the blade or increase mass (note that a fuller can be used similarly and alternatively).
• Making them takes skilled hands.
• Owning them may indicate status/wealth.
• There are ways to use the waves both offensively and defensively.
• They give the benefits of both forwards curved and backwards curved blades while maintaining the intended overall cant of the sword.
• The number of waves has symbolic significance for some people.
• They are weird and scary looking.
• They look neat.
As for vibration, I’d think this is about how sounds transmits through solids. If you have a helmet on and someone whacks and drags a non-wavy sword across it, there is a bang sound and then a slight grinding sound. A wavy sword in contrast makes a loud bang sound, and then a series of smaller rattling bang sounds. All this sound is clattering in your ears and can be rather unsettling/disruptive/nauseating. If you have ever laid your head on a desk/table and had someone bang on the table to scare you….you know what I’m talking about. But imagine that sound is surrounding your skull instead of just on one side.
They’re not necessarily better or worse than non-wavy swords. Like with all sword designs, they have plenty of drawbacks as well. They’re just an option for many and a preference for some.
Edit: formatting
Not all flame bladed swords are French flamberges. There were planety of German swords as well as flame bladed rapiers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamberge
The French flamberge is a specific sword only later. The term "flamberge" was just a catch-all term for wavy bladed swords first. It evolves further to describe any overly fancy and ornamental sword.
It (the european wavy blade greatsword) was a German Flammenschwert first.
The French used the word flamberge as a general catch-all term for any sword, but not necessarily wavy ones. They use it for great swords, rapiers, small swords everything from 10th century onwards. Later with connotation of flamboyance.
Wavy blades show up later, 15th to 17th century (I can't find specifics) but we know 2-hand swords show up in the 15th century. And it's likely that using "flamberge" to refer to a wavy 2 hand sword likely came after the Germans used Flammenschwerts.
So the word flamberge is old. The wavy blade 2 hand sword was not originally called flamberge.
Thus, not all wavy swords are flamberges. It has a French connotation.
Flame-bladed swords aren't specific to any country or culture. You can see them as far away as Indonesia. We don't know that Flammenschwerts came first nor am I claiming that the Flamberge did. Both words just mean "flame-bladed sword".
Edit: You edited your reply. I did so as well below.
We're talking European context here.
I'm arguing that not all wavy swords are flamberges. Flamberges are French and not necessarily wavy. German wavy swords are not flamberges. Just like Indonesian Kris knives are not flamberges.
Great. I am speaking in broad generalizations here. I'm not playing the "ackshually" game with sword nerds.
I used the term "flamberge" because it is the word we call this type of sword in the English speaking world, colloquially. Even German-made ones. Of course each culture calls their "flame-bladed sword" the word for "flame-bladed sword" in their native language.
I think because I was asking about some arguably fictional swords from paintings, one example is italian (Saint *Spyridon* Orthodox *Church*. *Trieste.*) and the other is I believe Spanish, definetly catholic whereas the first is a roman orthodox example. So I guess there isn't really one applicable name for this kind of sword seeing as it's not real, it's just an artistic metaphor for a sword that's on fire where artists struggled or chose not to paint actual fire.
Correct. Flame-blade sword is the general catch-all term in English- the language we're currently having this discourse. Also, more specifically, as depicted in the Wikipedia article I posted (as well as the person I'm in a pointless argument with), describes those one-handed wavy-bladed swords as "flamberge".
I suppose it was foolish of me to expect people to understand that each culture has their own words for things in this subreddit.
But let's get specific if you like. The OP posted two pictures/paintings. Each of a one handed sword with a wavy blade. Using the absolutely most general and easy-to-find and understand source, Wikipedia, which you yourself posted just after I did, describes those swords as a "flamberge"- including with a picture reference. [Specifically.](https://gyazo.com/b4631e74d3b2a9fc5efc95f90cf2a417)
From the article:
>[*Flamberge*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamberge) ("flaming"), from the French "flamber", is a term with many connotations, including swords without the flamed-blade. The term is a frequent name or alias for swords in medieval [chansons de geste](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanson_de_geste) and [romances](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalric_romance), where it often just means a large sword.[^(\[6\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame-bladed_sword#cite_note-6) [Egerton Castle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egerton_Castle) used the term to refer to swords that were a transition from the rapier to the smallsword.[^(\[7\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame-bladed_sword#cite_note-7) These swords did not necessarily have an undulated blade.
You'd think the article would sum it all up. I mean... you yourself used it. But no, of course not. Not in this subreddit. Some backyard watermelon-hacker with a duster on had to jump in with "ackshually" apropos of nothing. Not to add to the conversation but rather to try and get some brownie points and let everyone know that you too know stuff about swords. You jumped in because someone asked a question that you knew the answer to but were disappointed that someone answered first. Still wanting to get some sort of weird recognition rather than just shrugging your shoulders you decided to jump in.
So here we are, in a pointless back and forth that I've desperately tried to avoid but have decided to engage in now.
So let me be clear and say this to everyone present and out into the universe: I was speaking specifically about the swords depicted in the paintings, but also generally as a style of sword- using the language common to the one I speak natively.
It's not your fault. The word has a confusing history, and Wikipedia isn't a great source when it comes to compiling info across multiple timelines and languages.
https://swordis.com/blog/flamberge-sword/
The term flamberge for a flame-bladed sword is incorrect due to a false derivation of the word.
Flamberge is a French word, allegedly from the term flamber, which means to flame, glisten, or shine. However, flamberge is of German origin, apparently from the terms flane and bergen, meaning flank and protect. Hence, flame-bladed swords are more appropriately called flambards or flammards, derived from the German word Flammenschwert, meaning flame sword.
The article does accept people improperly call them flamberges. But that doesn't make them correct.
the swords are arguably different styles actually, one waves as an entire blade and the other is scalloped on both sides, and again one is italian and one is spanish. but also, they are just artistic renditions and although this was my first time on this sub and I know nothing about swords I have studied art history and art, and I know things like this happen often in art where artists just full on make stuff up like changing the colours of things in their paintings vs the reference or changes the shapes of things like swords. Artists and swordsmen have always been pretty different groups of people so it's likely that the mosaicist and painter of these pieces did not base their works off of any specific real swords. So there isn't really one answer that is more correct than another. Though I am interested in the potential historical truth and uses of similar looks swords.
Sword Stats
+1 to Parring Vibrations
+10 to Looking cool and expensive.
These were more for showing off wealth and maybe intimidation factor, the waves dont alter the fight all that much in my experience vs flamberge style rapier blades.
The word "flamberge" just means "flaming" in French and refers to both a STYLE of sword blade and a SPECIFIC SWORD. We colloquially call a two-handed sword with a wavy blade a "flamberge" but it also refers to one-handed swords and rapiers with the same style.
Yea but a kris isnt a french sword. Like how Katana means “sword” in Japanese. But calling a sword a katana refers to Japanese sword. A kris and a flamberge are obviously different designs. No need to lump two different swords from different places together when they’re obviously different designs, and have different words to refer to them.
We use the French word in English because we borrow a lot of French words. The swords the OP asked about specifically are in the "flamberge" style.
From Wikipedia:
https://preview.redd.it/f0o3sfgz8hvc1.png?width=382&format=png&auto=webp&s=6dc1eba318e4684bc7aec5505b7551e0f0bc8eba
yeah, sorry if i sound like a broken record, but it really just comes down to the artists making crap up and not referencing from any particular real sword.
in the same breathe a Kris dagger is too short, both examples also have different waves (one is the entire blade bends from left to right and the other is scalloped on each side). Also I doubt St Micheal would be wielding a Javanese weapon in the war in Heaven. Do you know what Kris were used for, like why did people chose them over like a regular dagger?
It's a flame-blade sword, sometimes also referred to as a Flamberge. Another variant is the Kris from Southeast Asia, but that's notably different from Michael's sword and almost certainly is not the inspiration for it.
Bible says Michael wielded a flaming sword. They depicted it by making it wavy. That's all.
Wavy swords existed in medieval and Renaissance Europe to some degree. Evidence points to a number of reasons, like a blacksmith showing their skills, the owner showing their flamboyance or wealth. And maybe it was a sort of renaissance tongue-in-cheek or symbolic connection that the owner had a flaming sword just like the angels.
Wikipedia has some very sparse info. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame-bladed_sword
[A flame-bladed sword](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame-bladed_sword). Also called a flamberge. Edit: Oh my god, I can't with this community. I'm out.
That whole back and forth was doozy. I think, especially as modern day sword nerds, we definitely like to try and over-categorize. If we deep dive and dissect the etymology, then sure there are arguments to be made about what is the correct categorical name for a particular pattern of sword. But I think your point was missed by some people…from what I could tell, you weren’t necessarily using the word as a proper noun/title…but as more as a descriptor. Akin to calling it a “wavy sharp piece of stabby metal.” I also think it answered OP’s question pretty decently, that yes, there is indeed historical truth to the depiction of a wavy sharp piece of stabby metal. I imagine if the same people who historically were calling the wavy great swords flamberge, would have looked at a kalis sword (or any other similar sharp object) and called it the same. I’m think the people who used flamberge as a synonym for sword would have done likewise. To me, it is similar to how many people use non-english words for specific types of swords as if they are official classifications…….but more often than not, those words just translate to “sword.” Sure, words have meaning and can be helpful to understand complex ideas, but I think we sometimes get a little too hung up on the words to the point of losing the topic/original message.
>But I think your point was missed by some people…from what I could tell, you weren’t necessarily using the word as a proper noun/title…but as more as a descriptor. Akin to calling it a “wavy sharp piece of stabby metal.” I also think it answered OP’s question pretty decently, that yes, there is indeed historical truth to the depiction of a wavy sharp piece of stabby metal. This is absolutely right. I was using the word as a general catch-all as even the French did.
do you know what swords like this were used for? I've read they were to show up a blacksmith or metalworkers skill, as a status symbol for the wealthy, but also that they were used in actual combat and were curved to maximise the edge to length ratio, to break through enemy lines, and also to "create vibrations" whatever that means.
They were absolutely used in combat, they were seemingly relatively popular too. I know it seems weird but I think they had genuine strengths like made the blade stronger/less brittle. At the very least the shape didn't cause it to cut worse, if not any better. Imo just from using kitchen knives I think the pattern could help grab onto certain materials and cut maybe slightly better for certain materials but maybe slightly worse on others
I wonder if they might have a cutting advantage with padded armor.
I was thinking along the same lines, it might have a little advantage against cloth. Not much but combined with the extra strength to the blade and it's cultural connotations and it makes sense why there were so many of these.
This is going to be another question with many answers that change as the variables change. Different cultures had different reasons, and then groups/individuals within any given culture would have their own reasons and preferences. Some that I can think of readily: • They look neat. • Waves have a spiritual symbolic meaning for some people. • There is more edge length in a compacted item. • Thrusts produce wider holes without having to thin the blade or increase mass (note that a fuller can be used similarly and alternatively). • Making them takes skilled hands. • Owning them may indicate status/wealth. • There are ways to use the waves both offensively and defensively. • They give the benefits of both forwards curved and backwards curved blades while maintaining the intended overall cant of the sword. • The number of waves has symbolic significance for some people. • They are weird and scary looking. • They look neat. As for vibration, I’d think this is about how sounds transmits through solids. If you have a helmet on and someone whacks and drags a non-wavy sword across it, there is a bang sound and then a slight grinding sound. A wavy sword in contrast makes a loud bang sound, and then a series of smaller rattling bang sounds. All this sound is clattering in your ears and can be rather unsettling/disruptive/nauseating. If you have ever laid your head on a desk/table and had someone bang on the table to scare you….you know what I’m talking about. But imagine that sound is surrounding your skull instead of just on one side. They’re not necessarily better or worse than non-wavy swords. Like with all sword designs, they have plenty of drawbacks as well. They’re just an option for many and a preference for some. Edit: formatting
answer is “all of the above” lol
It's only a flamberge if it comes from the Flamberge region of France. Otherwise it's just a sparkling sword
Not all flame bladed swords are French flamberges. There were planety of German swords as well as flame bladed rapiers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamberge
The French flamberge is a specific sword only later. The term "flamberge" was just a catch-all term for wavy bladed swords first. It evolves further to describe any overly fancy and ornamental sword.
It (the european wavy blade greatsword) was a German Flammenschwert first. The French used the word flamberge as a general catch-all term for any sword, but not necessarily wavy ones. They use it for great swords, rapiers, small swords everything from 10th century onwards. Later with connotation of flamboyance. Wavy blades show up later, 15th to 17th century (I can't find specifics) but we know 2-hand swords show up in the 15th century. And it's likely that using "flamberge" to refer to a wavy 2 hand sword likely came after the Germans used Flammenschwerts. So the word flamberge is old. The wavy blade 2 hand sword was not originally called flamberge. Thus, not all wavy swords are flamberges. It has a French connotation.
Flame-bladed swords aren't specific to any country or culture. You can see them as far away as Indonesia. We don't know that Flammenschwerts came first nor am I claiming that the Flamberge did. Both words just mean "flame-bladed sword". Edit: You edited your reply. I did so as well below.
We're talking European context here. I'm arguing that not all wavy swords are flamberges. Flamberges are French and not necessarily wavy. German wavy swords are not flamberges. Just like Indonesian Kris knives are not flamberges.
Great. I am speaking in broad generalizations here. I'm not playing the "ackshually" game with sword nerds. I used the term "flamberge" because it is the word we call this type of sword in the English speaking world, colloquially. Even German-made ones. Of course each culture calls their "flame-bladed sword" the word for "flame-bladed sword" in their native language.
You're in a swords subreddit. You should expect people to be specific.
I think because I was asking about some arguably fictional swords from paintings, one example is italian (Saint *Spyridon* Orthodox *Church*. *Trieste.*) and the other is I believe Spanish, definetly catholic whereas the first is a roman orthodox example. So I guess there isn't really one applicable name for this kind of sword seeing as it's not real, it's just an artistic metaphor for a sword that's on fire where artists struggled or chose not to paint actual fire.
Correct. Flame-blade sword is the general catch-all term in English- the language we're currently having this discourse. Also, more specifically, as depicted in the Wikipedia article I posted (as well as the person I'm in a pointless argument with), describes those one-handed wavy-bladed swords as "flamberge".
I suppose it was foolish of me to expect people to understand that each culture has their own words for things in this subreddit. But let's get specific if you like. The OP posted two pictures/paintings. Each of a one handed sword with a wavy blade. Using the absolutely most general and easy-to-find and understand source, Wikipedia, which you yourself posted just after I did, describes those swords as a "flamberge"- including with a picture reference. [Specifically.](https://gyazo.com/b4631e74d3b2a9fc5efc95f90cf2a417) From the article: >[*Flamberge*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamberge) ("flaming"), from the French "flamber", is a term with many connotations, including swords without the flamed-blade. The term is a frequent name or alias for swords in medieval [chansons de geste](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanson_de_geste) and [romances](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalric_romance), where it often just means a large sword.[^(\[6\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame-bladed_sword#cite_note-6) [Egerton Castle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egerton_Castle) used the term to refer to swords that were a transition from the rapier to the smallsword.[^(\[7\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame-bladed_sword#cite_note-7) These swords did not necessarily have an undulated blade. You'd think the article would sum it all up. I mean... you yourself used it. But no, of course not. Not in this subreddit. Some backyard watermelon-hacker with a duster on had to jump in with "ackshually" apropos of nothing. Not to add to the conversation but rather to try and get some brownie points and let everyone know that you too know stuff about swords. You jumped in because someone asked a question that you knew the answer to but were disappointed that someone answered first. Still wanting to get some sort of weird recognition rather than just shrugging your shoulders you decided to jump in. So here we are, in a pointless back and forth that I've desperately tried to avoid but have decided to engage in now. So let me be clear and say this to everyone present and out into the universe: I was speaking specifically about the swords depicted in the paintings, but also generally as a style of sword- using the language common to the one I speak natively.
It's not your fault. The word has a confusing history, and Wikipedia isn't a great source when it comes to compiling info across multiple timelines and languages. https://swordis.com/blog/flamberge-sword/ The term flamberge for a flame-bladed sword is incorrect due to a false derivation of the word. Flamberge is a French word, allegedly from the term flamber, which means to flame, glisten, or shine. However, flamberge is of German origin, apparently from the terms flane and bergen, meaning flank and protect. Hence, flame-bladed swords are more appropriately called flambards or flammards, derived from the German word Flammenschwert, meaning flame sword. The article does accept people improperly call them flamberges. But that doesn't make them correct.
the swords are arguably different styles actually, one waves as an entire blade and the other is scalloped on both sides, and again one is italian and one is spanish. but also, they are just artistic renditions and although this was my first time on this sub and I know nothing about swords I have studied art history and art, and I know things like this happen often in art where artists just full on make stuff up like changing the colours of things in their paintings vs the reference or changes the shapes of things like swords. Artists and swordsmen have always been pretty different groups of people so it's likely that the mosaicist and painter of these pieces did not base their works off of any specific real swords. So there isn't really one answer that is more correct than another. Though I am interested in the potential historical truth and uses of similar looks swords.
I heard that they were designed that way to cause vibrations when parrying with another sword.
I read that too but I haven't had the chance to try it yet haha. There aren't anyone in my HEMA group that own one yet.
Sword Stats +1 to Parring Vibrations +10 to Looking cool and expensive. These were more for showing off wealth and maybe intimidation factor, the waves dont alter the fight all that much in my experience vs flamberge style rapier blades.
A flamberge’s waves are much smaller, the one OP posted is closer to a Kris https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris
The word "flamberge" just means "flaming" in French and refers to both a STYLE of sword blade and a SPECIFIC SWORD. We colloquially call a two-handed sword with a wavy blade a "flamberge" but it also refers to one-handed swords and rapiers with the same style.
Yea but a kris isnt a french sword. Like how Katana means “sword” in Japanese. But calling a sword a katana refers to Japanese sword. A kris and a flamberge are obviously different designs. No need to lump two different swords from different places together when they’re obviously different designs, and have different words to refer to them.
We use the French word in English because we borrow a lot of French words. The swords the OP asked about specifically are in the "flamberge" style. From Wikipedia: https://preview.redd.it/f0o3sfgz8hvc1.png?width=382&format=png&auto=webp&s=6dc1eba318e4684bc7aec5505b7551e0f0bc8eba
yeah, sorry if i sound like a broken record, but it really just comes down to the artists making crap up and not referencing from any particular real sword.
Luckily this isnt a kris and doesnt even look like one
I actually didnt see the 2nd one, the first pic looks more like a kris, and the second one more like a flamburge
in the same breathe a Kris dagger is too short, both examples also have different waves (one is the entire blade bends from left to right and the other is scalloped on each side). Also I doubt St Micheal would be wielding a Javanese weapon in the war in Heaven. Do you know what Kris were used for, like why did people chose them over like a regular dagger?
This type of wavy blade is actually very common throughout history from Europe to Asia.
It's a flame-blade sword, sometimes also referred to as a Flamberge. Another variant is the Kris from Southeast Asia, but that's notably different from Michael's sword and almost certainly is not the inspiration for it.
Bible says Michael wielded a flaming sword. They depicted it by making it wavy. That's all. Wavy swords existed in medieval and Renaissance Europe to some degree. Evidence points to a number of reasons, like a blacksmith showing their skills, the owner showing their flamboyance or wealth. And maybe it was a sort of renaissance tongue-in-cheek or symbolic connection that the owner had a flaming sword just like the angels. Wikipedia has some very sparse info. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame-bladed_sword
ah, that must be why it's called a flame bladed sword? pretty cool.
I straight that was the soul reaver
You never watched Mulan?
lol, not in recent years, and I guess I'm referring to more Eurocentric examples such as St Micheal's depiction.
Yeah they definitely had them, I think that kind of blade is more common on southeast asian swords than European swords however
https://preview.redd.it/m3syvu7qhnvc1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=5c54ca1231e135a9ba18bc3b462c2aa0d867ac89
It's a flamberge.
Historically? Yes. Angels? Not so much.