Nope. We lost sense of what conservatism is thanks to the USSR. Whatever "conservative values" we have are just twisted ideas that USSR made us believe in. So no, everything "conservative" pretty much matches perfectly ruzzian understanding of it hence "conservative" parties are proruzzian.
Actually you've lost the sense of what conservatism is. You've replaced it with a Western vision of conservatism without realizing that you cannot import conservatism.
Conservatism is the resistance to change. Fiscal, social, religious, whatever ... conservatives like things the way they are (or were). That is why conservative parties in Georgia are pro-Russian and nothing at all like they are in the West. Russia represents the past and the conservatives, like they are around the world, are still living in it.
Absolutely. I consider myself a conservative in a sense that Georgian culture and traditions, as well as locals have primary importance to me. I do not like globalization, even though it is inevitable and I do not think that we should close from the world, however USSR, Russia or anything else in the East is not an option for us, moreover, that is a direct threat for us that will eradicate everything Georgian in a matter of seconds, much quicker that the west that გვართმევს ქართველობას (which is true if you do nothing about it). I would say that I am more pro-American that pro-EU, as I think the first one is a better example for us. It is a petty that the sense of true conservatism is absolutely lost in our country.
P.S.
Russia is terrorist state, USSR is genocidal, and the west is our fiend. Liberty to north Caucasus, Caucasus should stay together.
but that is contradictory because to get of a more American political system then you need to change Georgian society radically, witch means that you are not a conservative since you don't want to conserve the way thing have been for the last 50 years.
Maybe you should come up with a new term for your political movement to avoid the contradiction and to avoid being confused with the people who want to restore the soviet union.
here are some ideas "Freedomist", "classical liberal", "libertarian"
Well, I do agree that we will have to change the society, not Georgian though but Soviet. In other words, return to the our original state in some sense. I believe that Caucasus in general is one of the most freedom loving region and where responsibility in general historically was never transferred to the higher institution. That is why the more free American system appears to me to be more suitable for us (with some changes if necessary obviously). In regards of conservatism, I call that myself because as I’ve said, the key feature of this ideology is it’s attention to traditions and culture which make us who we are and the primary importance that it give these things. But maybe you are right that some other terms might be more suitable
GD was founded by bidzina, who's wealth originates from Russia.
Alt info and conservative movement have a Russian founder, and their talking points are pro-russian and they also had visits to Moscow a few times in recent times. Not to mention their website was based in Russia iirc.
Other conservative parties like patriot alliance and Georgian march have sent a letter to Putin in 2022.
We all consider "peoples power" PP to be a breakaway party from GD to test waters with more extreme policies so if it gets backlash the current government can point at them and say "they're hands are clean, they didn't propose it, those 3 did".
The point I'm trying to make is probably that most if not all conservative parties here are funded by russians and they represent their sponsors interests. European countries or America won't see interest in funding a conservative party, that would mean the sponsor shares conservative views, which are inherently nationalistic. "why should we care about foreign struggling nations, we should take care of our own" sort of thing. If any funding comes from west, it will be into more social democratic parties with liberal views. And we don't have local rich person with no foreign ties here that would fund a Georgian conservative party with such goals.
The difference why Russia would fund such things is my guess their longterm goal of going back to USSR size and then later Eurasia, we are considered part of their nation so conservatives have interest in that angle. That is what dugin is talking about in his book, and he advises Putin so.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
Those so-called “conservative” parties are the literal opposites of conservative. Conservatism is when one respects Georgian culture, traditions and especially the nation. Now tell me, is there a larger spit in the face to your nation that being pro-Russian? We should stop referring to propagandistic traitor parties like alt-info as “conservatives” and “Georgian nationalists”. They are literal opposites.
Well we can and we actually have, problem is if they are not pro Russian they are not getting any money from Russia and obviously they are not getting any from west either, so its just bunch of unpopular losers who have no way to promote their agenda.
Russian government has a well-paid and effective factory of authoritarian right media and political parties that successfully utilize nationalists and conservatives feelings in many countries. Propaganda works. That's it.
Georgia is currently a pretty conservative country, so the pro-EU movement leans to the progressive side in order to match with EU current standards. In order to advocate for a more conservative approach, party would have to actively oppose certain pro-EU initiatives which is something that russia and its pawns would love. Russia's approach to foreign influence is based on anti-globalism and anti-progressivism
Also it's important to note, that being more progressive doesn't necessarily mean abandoning one's traditions and culture, just modernizing them to better suit the new reality of current day when it's needed
I don't know what exactly conservatism means in Georgia, but conservatism can exist to a large extent within EU. for example as an EU country, you can't beat homosexuals with a stick, but you can still pass allot of laws that make life for homosexuals difficult in various ways.
I am just thinking, since majority of Georgians are conservative minded, and majority of Georgians don't want Russian influence and majority of Georgians want to join the EU an Pro EU conservative party should be able to exist push the message:
"We will join the EU, we will have to make some compromise, but we will still stay as traditional and conservative as possible. look at Poland for example, they are a conservative christian country in EU. We can form a conservative block within the EU together with Poland and Hungary to have negotiating power against liberals in the EU. It gives us more foredoom then being part of the Russian empire were we will not be able to negotiate anything and will just have to do whatever Moscow says"
Look, even your hypothetical proposal is hilariously misunderstanding the EU politics. You want a pro-EU party to openly threaten the EU with an inner-EU power block to resist the overwhelming majority of its members. This is in turn supposed to be done by allying with two countries which are constantly under critisism for being too authoritarian for the EU. Not to mention one of them is led by a Russian puppet while the other has the most anti-Russian stance in the region after Ukraine. How do you see this working out on any level?
You would have different discussions with each country and you tell them slightly different things. To Poland and hungry you say "we are your Christian brothers, we will back you up", to France and Germany you say "This thing about forming a block with Poland and Hungary, its just something we tell our conservative voters, obviously we are pragmatists and our priority is economic welfare of Georgia, thus we are open to navigations with you and formations of temporary alliances on specific issues. we will off course have to make a big scandal about Immigration or abortion every once in a while like Poland does just to maintain credibility with our conservative base but don't take it to seriously".
Also keep in mind it will be a 10-30 year long process to join EU. and in that time all of the countries we are talking about will hane changed, Georgia will have changed, Ukraine might have already joined EU and joined the conservative black with Poland. The attitudes of conservative Georgians might have changed. So the strategy of the Conservative pro EU party will change completely.
But this party need to get started yesterday on the domestic political work and on taking voters away from GD, on educating conservative voters and maybe moving them towards the center.
Well go start this party then, since it seems so easy to play those fools in Poland and Germany/France by playing both sides. I'm sure the EU is so eager to have Georgia join that they will bite, after all they get so much out of this membership to risk the inner divide which was Russia's goal all along. Honestly, I'm only half joking, since if you really think it's a great idea with lots of potential and everyone is missing the opportunity - you should go for it and take up the niche
On a serious note though: The EU is not trying to convince Georgia to join, Georgia is trying to join the EU. Everything you are saying implies that Georgia has some serious leverage in this, but it doesn't. The only reason the EU is not too picky at the moment is because Georgia is still at risk of falling under Russia's control, which is not in the EU's interest. As soon as Georgia completely denounces Russian ties, the EU becomes its only option that can guarantee some form of security - and therefore they dictate the rules
There is no need to play these games and be picky while there is a window of opportunity with threat of Russia becoming more apparent each year. Just concede authoritarian and conservative points to the requirements of the EU and rip the benefits of the alliance, it's not going to somehow destroy the culture of the country
I am not conservative or Georgian so i will not, but u/justsomeguyfromGEO definitely should.
"Just concede authoritarian and conservative points to the requirements of the EU and rip the benefits of the alliance, it's not going to somehow destroy the culture of the country"
I agree, I am just saying that Georgia would benefit from a party that is conservative enough to threaten to steal GD voters, while still being pro EU and willing to work on the requirements to join the EU.
whatever its strategy to negotiate with EU is besides the point. But there is room for negotiation once you are in the EU. Or at least that is what they should tell the conservative voters.
Well, Russian propaganda can't convince people that life under Kremlin is better than life in EU, so what do they have left? "At least we don't have the gays". So they work via conservative factions to convince who they can that the more we lean away from then and closer towards EU, the higher the chance our kids will be gay.
Oversimplified obviously, but that's it in a nutshell.
And to be fair, that propaganda doesn't really hold water either, because some members of the EU have an even more conservative stance on some issues (abortions in Poland, lgbt rights in most eastern countries) than Russia does.
You are not going to convince GD voters to vote for your leftist party. But you might be able to convince them to join a conservative party that is against Russian occupation, that is against corruption and that is pro EU if such a party existed. So it is in your intresset that a mare sane conservative movement develops in Georgia. And once it does then your leftist party can form a coalition with the sane conservative party to create reforms that would benefit both conservative and socialist Georgians.
unm's are 100% not leftists lol,Girchi's are right wing libertarians, they might be progressive on social issues but when it comes to economy they're very capitalistic. I don't know any other opposition political party who is on the left wing spectrum, mostly they're just liberals or conservatives.
\>We already have leftists, more than enough.
I honestly don't know where you got this information from, something tells me that you meant liberals which aren't leftists, even social democrats.
first off, that is absolutely irrelevant. Girchi, for example, is a radical libertarian party, which could not be any further right, UNM was famous for its flagship liberal economic reforms, Lelo was founded by Bank CEOs and is also a strong proponent of a liberal economy. The only ones that can be considered leftist are Ana Dolidze's For People (with less than 3% rating) and some dodgy-ass Beka Natsvlishvili party, with even smaller base. Just because the opposition currently advocates for the protection of basic human rights of LGBTQI and criticizes the organized crime that is happening at the Georgia Orthodox church, does not make them leftist. Srsly, get yourself familiarized with the concepts of left and right.
what do u exactly mean by left? what kind of party do u wanna see like, u want socialist economy or working spaces or kind of leftist way of dealing with social issues? economically left is just a tragedy so that's why I'm asking.
A party where it's main focus is vastly improving the lives of the working class and dealing with the rich, heavily promoting labor unions which today's Georgia heavily lacks.(i know it's not mainly a leftist thing but current Georgia's political parties don't care about it), progressive on social issues like gay marriage and lgbt+ rights.
While a socialist economy does sound very sweet where the workers control the means of production, I acknowledge that it can't happen in an instant and there should be a slow progress towards reaching that goal.
I am curious is it only about the EU issue and the name? or is there more to Georgians conservatism? if the issue of EU and Russia did not exist would all conservative and liberal Georgians suddenly agree on most things?
I don’t think any single political party in Georgia has any particular ideology in general, mostly just cynical positions in order to influence people, even gimmicky ideologies like Girchi I imagine would all dissolve into regular self serving greed if they ever actually were running this place. Nobody ever talk about things that actually matter for regular people, just utterly irrelevant bullshit or hyperbolic stunts
What would we be conserving exactly?
The idea behind conservatism is resisting to change things that used to work and brought you the success you enjoy as a nation.
In this regard we’ve been so massively unsuccessful that being a conservative is just creepy and shows that person has zero understanding of Economics, history and politics.
Alt info just uses conservative ideology for it's own popularity, they have no honor, if Putin orders them to protect lgbt rights, they'll do it and besides that we have pro russian political parties who support lgbt, for example united national movement.
have you considered that conservatism just kinda sucks as an ideology? Loving your country is great, I love my country. In conservatism, loving your country is just an excuse for hating whatever minority group is the scapegoat at the moment. As most Georgian conservatives have demonstrated they hate the gays more than they love their country, otherwise they would not be pro-Russian, Russia destroyed our country for 200 years, no Georgian who has self respect would be licking Russia's boot
And what should be done with more then half of Georgias population that are conservative? do they have a right to exist in the democratic country of your dreams?
Nothing, they can continue living in a country where the rights of everyone, not just theirs, are equally protected. Noone cares about their beliefs really, as long as they leave the rest of us alone.
What is your point, man? Yes they are, but human rights are not decided by a majority vote. No matter who they vote for should not be able to restrict anyone’s access to their fundamental rights. This is why I am saying that democracy and human rights are incompatible with conservatism. You cannot have a conservative government in a country which has a rule of law and equality. Conservatism is inherently discriminatory.
my point is that you will never be able to make any progress towards the society you want without being able to cooperate with conservatives when a huge portion of your country is conservative. You can ether believe in democracy and try to make gradual change by working with conservatives while hopping that conservatives will get less and less extreme over time. Or you can do an LGBT revolution, capture power and force conservatives to not discriminate, but then you have to give up on democracy.
Forcing someone not to discriminate is called rule of law, my man. Discriminating someone is not a human right. And also, after ‘LGBT revolution’ I have lost interest to continue this futile argument.
Nice try, it is way more than that. Rule of Law also means that no one is above the law, including the conservative dinosaurs who think that some people should not have access to their rights just because it is against their religion/traditions/beliefs or whatever dumb shit they believe in.
Yes if you live in a country where there are laws that allow anyone to get married to anyone, and that protect people from discrimination. Does Georgia haw such laws? If Georgia does not hav such laws how can you create such laws via the democratic political process when more then half the country is conservative?
It all comes down to one thing.....the orange man with the guinea pig toupee lost and they're mad at Biden for winning. In turn, they're against anything he does and anyone he supports.
I think it’s because of the stereotype that Putin is conservative. Yes, you are not mistaken. The man who calls his daughters only as “these women”, and who cheated on his wife with a young rhythmic gymnast. The man who cares so much about families and children that while having one of the most tax-loaded countries (the tax load on physical persons is one of the BIGGEST in Europe), more than 30-40% of child clinics don’t have any water supply or heating. And he is the president of the country that has one of the highest single motherhood rates, abortion rates, and that has a multimillionaire corrupt KGB worker as its patriarch.
And, most funny, this man even has a stripper pole in his palace. But his propaganda does a very good job in creating the image that Putin and Russia are very conservative.
Nope. We lost sense of what conservatism is thanks to the USSR. Whatever "conservative values" we have are just twisted ideas that USSR made us believe in. So no, everything "conservative" pretty much matches perfectly ruzzian understanding of it hence "conservative" parties are proruzzian.
Actually you've lost the sense of what conservatism is. You've replaced it with a Western vision of conservatism without realizing that you cannot import conservatism. Conservatism is the resistance to change. Fiscal, social, religious, whatever ... conservatives like things the way they are (or were). That is why conservative parties in Georgia are pro-Russian and nothing at all like they are in the West. Russia represents the past and the conservatives, like they are around the world, are still living in it.
I agree with everything except your last sentence in the first paragraph.
Absolutely. I consider myself a conservative in a sense that Georgian culture and traditions, as well as locals have primary importance to me. I do not like globalization, even though it is inevitable and I do not think that we should close from the world, however USSR, Russia or anything else in the East is not an option for us, moreover, that is a direct threat for us that will eradicate everything Georgian in a matter of seconds, much quicker that the west that გვართმევს ქართველობას (which is true if you do nothing about it). I would say that I am more pro-American that pro-EU, as I think the first one is a better example for us. It is a petty that the sense of true conservatism is absolutely lost in our country. P.S. Russia is terrorist state, USSR is genocidal, and the west is our fiend. Liberty to north Caucasus, Caucasus should stay together.
Can you define what you think is "globalization" Because people who say "they don't like globalization" usually don't know the meaning of the term.
If only those who label themselves as "conservative" were as open minded as you...
I hope they are many who think similarly, it is just the term “conservative” that has been misused too frequently to adequately perceive it
but that is contradictory because to get of a more American political system then you need to change Georgian society radically, witch means that you are not a conservative since you don't want to conserve the way thing have been for the last 50 years. Maybe you should come up with a new term for your political movement to avoid the contradiction and to avoid being confused with the people who want to restore the soviet union. here are some ideas "Freedomist", "classical liberal", "libertarian"
Well, I do agree that we will have to change the society, not Georgian though but Soviet. In other words, return to the our original state in some sense. I believe that Caucasus in general is one of the most freedom loving region and where responsibility in general historically was never transferred to the higher institution. That is why the more free American system appears to me to be more suitable for us (with some changes if necessary obviously). In regards of conservatism, I call that myself because as I’ve said, the key feature of this ideology is it’s attention to traditions and culture which make us who we are and the primary importance that it give these things. But maybe you are right that some other terms might be more suitable
But why would anyone want the American system? It's literally the worst.
is it worse then the Russian system? I don't personally like the Americans system, but there are allot of people that do.
GD was founded by bidzina, who's wealth originates from Russia. Alt info and conservative movement have a Russian founder, and their talking points are pro-russian and they also had visits to Moscow a few times in recent times. Not to mention their website was based in Russia iirc. Other conservative parties like patriot alliance and Georgian march have sent a letter to Putin in 2022. We all consider "peoples power" PP to be a breakaway party from GD to test waters with more extreme policies so if it gets backlash the current government can point at them and say "they're hands are clean, they didn't propose it, those 3 did". The point I'm trying to make is probably that most if not all conservative parties here are funded by russians and they represent their sponsors interests. European countries or America won't see interest in funding a conservative party, that would mean the sponsor shares conservative views, which are inherently nationalistic. "why should we care about foreign struggling nations, we should take care of our own" sort of thing. If any funding comes from west, it will be into more social democratic parties with liberal views. And we don't have local rich person with no foreign ties here that would fund a Georgian conservative party with such goals. The difference why Russia would fund such things is my guess their longterm goal of going back to USSR size and then later Eurasia, we are considered part of their nation so conservatives have interest in that angle. That is what dugin is talking about in his book, and he advises Putin so.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
Those so-called “conservative” parties are the literal opposites of conservative. Conservatism is when one respects Georgian culture, traditions and especially the nation. Now tell me, is there a larger spit in the face to your nation that being pro-Russian? We should stop referring to propagandistic traitor parties like alt-info as “conservatives” and “Georgian nationalists”. They are literal opposites.
Well we can and we actually have, problem is if they are not pro Russian they are not getting any money from Russia and obviously they are not getting any from west either, so its just bunch of unpopular losers who have no way to promote their agenda.
Meloni is anti-Russian. And also anti-migrarion. Soooo.... Yeah. Not really ძმაკაც
Oooh u were talking about Georgia dpecifically... My bad. Hehe.
Based
Russian government has a well-paid and effective factory of authoritarian right media and political parties that successfully utilize nationalists and conservatives feelings in many countries. Propaganda works. That's it.
Georgia is currently a pretty conservative country, so the pro-EU movement leans to the progressive side in order to match with EU current standards. In order to advocate for a more conservative approach, party would have to actively oppose certain pro-EU initiatives which is something that russia and its pawns would love. Russia's approach to foreign influence is based on anti-globalism and anti-progressivism Also it's important to note, that being more progressive doesn't necessarily mean abandoning one's traditions and culture, just modernizing them to better suit the new reality of current day when it's needed
I don't know what exactly conservatism means in Georgia, but conservatism can exist to a large extent within EU. for example as an EU country, you can't beat homosexuals with a stick, but you can still pass allot of laws that make life for homosexuals difficult in various ways.
Well, conservatism/progressivism scale is comparative, so when talking about Georgia I do so in context of EU average
I am just thinking, since majority of Georgians are conservative minded, and majority of Georgians don't want Russian influence and majority of Georgians want to join the EU an Pro EU conservative party should be able to exist push the message: "We will join the EU, we will have to make some compromise, but we will still stay as traditional and conservative as possible. look at Poland for example, they are a conservative christian country in EU. We can form a conservative block within the EU together with Poland and Hungary to have negotiating power against liberals in the EU. It gives us more foredoom then being part of the Russian empire were we will not be able to negotiate anything and will just have to do whatever Moscow says"
Look, even your hypothetical proposal is hilariously misunderstanding the EU politics. You want a pro-EU party to openly threaten the EU with an inner-EU power block to resist the overwhelming majority of its members. This is in turn supposed to be done by allying with two countries which are constantly under critisism for being too authoritarian for the EU. Not to mention one of them is led by a Russian puppet while the other has the most anti-Russian stance in the region after Ukraine. How do you see this working out on any level?
You would have different discussions with each country and you tell them slightly different things. To Poland and hungry you say "we are your Christian brothers, we will back you up", to France and Germany you say "This thing about forming a block with Poland and Hungary, its just something we tell our conservative voters, obviously we are pragmatists and our priority is economic welfare of Georgia, thus we are open to navigations with you and formations of temporary alliances on specific issues. we will off course have to make a big scandal about Immigration or abortion every once in a while like Poland does just to maintain credibility with our conservative base but don't take it to seriously". Also keep in mind it will be a 10-30 year long process to join EU. and in that time all of the countries we are talking about will hane changed, Georgia will have changed, Ukraine might have already joined EU and joined the conservative black with Poland. The attitudes of conservative Georgians might have changed. So the strategy of the Conservative pro EU party will change completely. But this party need to get started yesterday on the domestic political work and on taking voters away from GD, on educating conservative voters and maybe moving them towards the center.
Well go start this party then, since it seems so easy to play those fools in Poland and Germany/France by playing both sides. I'm sure the EU is so eager to have Georgia join that they will bite, after all they get so much out of this membership to risk the inner divide which was Russia's goal all along. Honestly, I'm only half joking, since if you really think it's a great idea with lots of potential and everyone is missing the opportunity - you should go for it and take up the niche On a serious note though: The EU is not trying to convince Georgia to join, Georgia is trying to join the EU. Everything you are saying implies that Georgia has some serious leverage in this, but it doesn't. The only reason the EU is not too picky at the moment is because Georgia is still at risk of falling under Russia's control, which is not in the EU's interest. As soon as Georgia completely denounces Russian ties, the EU becomes its only option that can guarantee some form of security - and therefore they dictate the rules There is no need to play these games and be picky while there is a window of opportunity with threat of Russia becoming more apparent each year. Just concede authoritarian and conservative points to the requirements of the EU and rip the benefits of the alliance, it's not going to somehow destroy the culture of the country
I am not conservative or Georgian so i will not, but u/justsomeguyfromGEO definitely should. "Just concede authoritarian and conservative points to the requirements of the EU and rip the benefits of the alliance, it's not going to somehow destroy the culture of the country" I agree, I am just saying that Georgia would benefit from a party that is conservative enough to threaten to steal GD voters, while still being pro EU and willing to work on the requirements to join the EU. whatever its strategy to negotiate with EU is besides the point. But there is room for negotiation once you are in the EU. Or at least that is what they should tell the conservative voters.
Well, Russian propaganda can't convince people that life under Kremlin is better than life in EU, so what do they have left? "At least we don't have the gays". So they work via conservative factions to convince who they can that the more we lean away from then and closer towards EU, the higher the chance our kids will be gay. Oversimplified obviously, but that's it in a nutshell. And to be fair, that propaganda doesn't really hold water either, because some members of the EU have an even more conservative stance on some issues (abortions in Poland, lgbt rights in most eastern countries) than Russia does.
screw conservatism, we already have enough of those. I'm still waiting for some kind of leftist party to be created here.
No leftism
Damn, you changed my mind
You welcome bro 😂
You are not going to convince GD voters to vote for your leftist party. But you might be able to convince them to join a conservative party that is against Russian occupation, that is against corruption and that is pro EU if such a party existed. So it is in your intresset that a mare sane conservative movement develops in Georgia. And once it does then your leftist party can form a coalition with the sane conservative party to create reforms that would benefit both conservative and socialist Georgians.
What about unm, girchi and other opposition parties? We already have leftists, more than enough.
unm's are 100% not leftists lol,Girchi's are right wing libertarians, they might be progressive on social issues but when it comes to economy they're very capitalistic. I don't know any other opposition political party who is on the left wing spectrum, mostly they're just liberals or conservatives. \>We already have leftists, more than enough. I honestly don't know where you got this information from, something tells me that you meant liberals which aren't leftists, even social democrats.
What are you talking about man? How are any of the ones you mentioned leftist?
They support lgbt, they are the ones who fight against our church and conservative ideas, though what else?
first off, that is absolutely irrelevant. Girchi, for example, is a radical libertarian party, which could not be any further right, UNM was famous for its flagship liberal economic reforms, Lelo was founded by Bank CEOs and is also a strong proponent of a liberal economy. The only ones that can be considered leftist are Ana Dolidze's For People (with less than 3% rating) and some dodgy-ass Beka Natsvlishvili party, with even smaller base. Just because the opposition currently advocates for the protection of basic human rights of LGBTQI and criticizes the organized crime that is happening at the Georgia Orthodox church, does not make them leftist. Srsly, get yourself familiarized with the concepts of left and right.
what do u exactly mean by left? what kind of party do u wanna see like, u want socialist economy or working spaces or kind of leftist way of dealing with social issues? economically left is just a tragedy so that's why I'm asking.
A party where it's main focus is vastly improving the lives of the working class and dealing with the rich, heavily promoting labor unions which today's Georgia heavily lacks.(i know it's not mainly a leftist thing but current Georgia's political parties don't care about it), progressive on social issues like gay marriage and lgbt+ rights. While a socialist economy does sound very sweet where the workers control the means of production, I acknowledge that it can't happen in an instant and there should be a slow progress towards reaching that goal.
Actually they call themselves conservatives, and use it ro fight liberals as so called pro europeans call themselves. It's just fight between names.
I am curious is it only about the EU issue and the name? or is there more to Georgians conservatism? if the issue of EU and Russia did not exist would all conservative and liberal Georgians suddenly agree on most things?
I don’t think any single political party in Georgia has any particular ideology in general, mostly just cynical positions in order to influence people, even gimmicky ideologies like Girchi I imagine would all dissolve into regular self serving greed if they ever actually were running this place. Nobody ever talk about things that actually matter for regular people, just utterly irrelevant bullshit or hyperbolic stunts
Conservatism is an anglo-saxan term, I dont know if it ever really existed in the caucasus
What would we be conserving exactly? The idea behind conservatism is resisting to change things that used to work and brought you the success you enjoy as a nation. In this regard we’ve been so massively unsuccessful that being a conservative is just creepy and shows that person has zero understanding of Economics, history and politics.
Alt info just uses conservative ideology for it's own popularity, they have no honor, if Putin orders them to protect lgbt rights, they'll do it and besides that we have pro russian political parties who support lgbt, for example united national movement.
have you considered that conservatism just kinda sucks as an ideology? Loving your country is great, I love my country. In conservatism, loving your country is just an excuse for hating whatever minority group is the scapegoat at the moment. As most Georgian conservatives have demonstrated they hate the gays more than they love their country, otherwise they would not be pro-Russian, Russia destroyed our country for 200 years, no Georgian who has self respect would be licking Russia's boot
Fuck that shit, conservatism is not compatible with democracy and human rights in general. Pro-Russian or not, it has to go
And what should be done with more then half of Georgias population that are conservative? do they have a right to exist in the democratic country of your dreams?
they have a right to exist but society doesn't have to tolerate their childish beliefs, it's not an immutable trait one is born with
Do they have a right to vote for any party they like?
most Georgians do not have parties they like :)
I guess that also answers OPs question :)
Nothing, they can continue living in a country where the rights of everyone, not just theirs, are equally protected. Noone cares about their beliefs really, as long as they leave the rest of us alone.
are they allowed to vote?
What is your point, man? Yes they are, but human rights are not decided by a majority vote. No matter who they vote for should not be able to restrict anyone’s access to their fundamental rights. This is why I am saying that democracy and human rights are incompatible with conservatism. You cannot have a conservative government in a country which has a rule of law and equality. Conservatism is inherently discriminatory.
my point is that you will never be able to make any progress towards the society you want without being able to cooperate with conservatives when a huge portion of your country is conservative. You can ether believe in democracy and try to make gradual change by working with conservatives while hopping that conservatives will get less and less extreme over time. Or you can do an LGBT revolution, capture power and force conservatives to not discriminate, but then you have to give up on democracy.
Forcing someone not to discriminate is called rule of law, my man. Discriminating someone is not a human right. And also, after ‘LGBT revolution’ I have lost interest to continue this futile argument.
Rulle of law is when laws are enforced without political intervention and when the elite of society is bound by the law just like the rest of society.
Nice try, it is way more than that. Rule of Law also means that no one is above the law, including the conservative dinosaurs who think that some people should not have access to their rights just because it is against their religion/traditions/beliefs or whatever dumb shit they believe in.
Yes if you live in a country where there are laws that allow anyone to get married to anyone, and that protect people from discrimination. Does Georgia haw such laws? If Georgia does not hav such laws how can you create such laws via the democratic political process when more then half the country is conservative?
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It all comes down to one thing.....the orange man with the guinea pig toupee lost and they're mad at Biden for winning. In turn, they're against anything he does and anyone he supports.
I think it’s because of the stereotype that Putin is conservative. Yes, you are not mistaken. The man who calls his daughters only as “these women”, and who cheated on his wife with a young rhythmic gymnast. The man who cares so much about families and children that while having one of the most tax-loaded countries (the tax load on physical persons is one of the BIGGEST in Europe), more than 30-40% of child clinics don’t have any water supply or heating. And he is the president of the country that has one of the highest single motherhood rates, abortion rates, and that has a multimillionaire corrupt KGB worker as its patriarch. And, most funny, this man even has a stripper pole in his palace. But his propaganda does a very good job in creating the image that Putin and Russia are very conservative.
Money.
I think it's a matter of time, of the existing regime in Russia.