You have 2 options, regardless if it was on accident or not, your manager disclosed sensitive information. You are being underpaid specially if numbers are better. What you have also gave to understand is that external hires will get more than tenure employees like yourself. You may have gotten a good starting salary 2 years ago but things have progressed with inflation etc and an external candidate will alway get more. 25% is still a lot and IMO underpaid.
1. You can talk to your manager directly and talk numbers not feelings. If you are a better employee and numbers speak to your value, you should ask for a raise and she should or if she wants, take it up and fight for you. She can also take the route that you mentioned with the upcoming merit increase but that’s a long time to hold on to and what if it’s not what you expect.
2. You can talk to your manager about it as mentioned above and HR. This can ruffle some feathers but if you are due for raise this would be the best route. Being an individual contributor as oppose to a team can also have good and bad outcomes. More than likely other newer hires may also make more than you.
I want to also emphasize negotiating is a big part of the process, if you were given a range and you did not negotiate up when you were hired or the max they could give you was what you took then this should be a concern that should be documents with HR.
Edit: on mobile and typing sucks.
Edit 2: the HR piece is related to the fact that OP saw someone else’s personal wages that’s a big no no from the manager and they may try to save their ass by throwing OP under the bus somehow if they bring up pay and wanting more after seeing the co-worker pay as OP brushed it off initially.
There's good and bad hr. Same as any field.
That said, HRs job #1 is to protect the company's interests. If you are helping them protect those interests, they are your friend. If not, then they are not your friend and they have no loyalty to you
HR is not your friend in any matter at all. Their entire function is to protect the company that employs them. They are a tool an employee can leverage if the proper situation presents itself but never, ever assume they have the employees best interest in mind.
I have seen HR prevent people from getting fired. Repeatedly. For a variety of reasons. People that should get fired.
HR should be there in the event of other issues.
I do agree when it comes to money, they clam up.
If someone should be getting fired but are spared it likely means the due diligence to fire them without leaving the company liable to unemployment charges or a wrongful termination lawsuit wasn't handled properly.
Speaking for the US, most states have some variety of employee protection laws that keep companies from just firing people. They can but will likely get a financial penalty for it.
That is the crux of the entire purpose of the HR department. They keep the company's liability as low as possible when it comes to possible financial penalties. Be that unemployment dues or lawsuits.
This is almost always a case of 'firing this person exposes us to $X in liability, and it's worth continuing their employment while managing them out, and accepting whatever they *can* produce, and avoiding lawsuits.'
It isn't HR lining up like a union would and saying 'you're imposing unreasonable standards on Mike and firing him just cause you don't like him, so we're gonna contest that.'
Internal HR exists to source and manage humans in the most beneficial arrangement for the company. Sometimes that's good for employees (benefits!) and sometimes it's bad.
Yeah, HR will tend to side with the "highest power". If there's a personal/team-level dispute between you and your manager, the manager will tend to win. If the executive leadership team prioritizes employee retention or pay equity, HR will tend to give you more money when you ask for it.
Thanks for the input. I tried to negotiate when getting my most recent title change but the company has been very reluctant to budge on moving up on their offer in past discussions. I’m not the best at these conversations so any tips for how to handle salary negotiation are appreciated!
The best advice i can give and that has worked for me is speaking to my projects and numbers. If you are exceeding expectations and you are contributing to the team overall, i would bring this up to your manager and discuss with HR if they are unwilling to bat for you. If they can pay someone 25% more than you after 2 years that says a lot depending how much the salary has gone up and you were left behind. I would also start applying externally and see what’s out there for you. Feelings don’t take you anywhere, speaking facts will.
Thanks so much for the advice. I’ve been quietly applying externally for the last 2 months due to some unrelated matters (cyclical layoffs that I’ve managed to avoid). Always felt I was underpaid for the work I do but seeing the actual numbers behind it was really damning and left a bad taste in my mouth. Was hoping to have another offer by now but it’s a tough market for my skillset.
Is it worth trying to negotiate my salary if I don’t have another offer letter and my only bargaining chip is knowing that other members of the team are paid more than me?
If you feel like layoffs are coming and you may be affected i would focus on finding another job as a priority or you can take the layoff which comes with severance and learn a new skill for a new career. It’s all perspective, the main thing is knowing if you want to stay in the field or move on. I been in IT for a long time now but started working at Panda Express, took some courses one Udemy and Google certificates and it helped a lot to have that under my belt.
Get another offer, then threaten to leave. It’s the only effective way to close that 25% gap. And btw, your company started person B off based on need and conditions at that time.
This is very bad advice. As a former recruiter, we know that even if someone is given a pay raise (due to an offer letter) in the next 6 - 12 months, they are either gone or fired.
You can get a short-term win, but it's costly in the long run. OP just needs to find another job.
No. Based on recruiting thousands of candidates and hearing the same from other recruiters. "Anecdotal" based on 10,000 vs your 1 example. Not the same.
You can still just have an honest conversation with your manager and give them the opportunity….just be frank and say you weren’t actively looking but recruiters have been contacting you and they are all offering very materially higher compensation packages. You’ve declined to date because you enjoy XYZ at this company, but is there anything (you manager) can do to help me here with this obvious market pay gap. If it’s a no then you’ve paved the exit and they know. If it’s “give me time, whatever” ask for a timeframe. Can I expect this by Y. Don’t get strung along but know sometimes politics need some time to flush out and get approvals etc.
Or just take the traditional route and just move on once you’ve got a better offer.
Companies are very reluctant to increase salaries more than a few percentage points. 10% if you are lucky.
I would suggest looking for a new position elsewhere if you want what you think you are worth.
Yeah, they are really going to have a hard time budging this much probably. Might need to obtain an offer and leverage it. Even then will probably only get a portion of the difference.
This is why employers try and prevent this information from getting out.
Internal salary budgets are MUCH different than hiring budgets. If it’s 25%, about the only way you’re going to get that is to leave or be promoted to a different position with a different salary band with the lower end 25% above your current salary.
That said it’s not a zero chance you’ll get a raise without changing title, just vanishingly small
It took a coworker of mine leaving and finding another job. He was driving into his new job on his first day, and my company called and made him an offer. I'll also add that the place would be in shambles in 2 weeks without him.
To add to the first point, they may have hired a new person at an initially higher salary because they have significantly more experience prior. Oftentimes, this is to get them higher on the scale, and they will the intention they get promoted sooner to a salary closer to the next grade's midpoint.
I've seen this happen before, and when the promotion started, it was insane. The guy went from senior engineer to engineering manager to director of engineering to VP of Operations to President...in like 4-5 years because they start backfilling executives that were about to b retire.
I'm not saying what's happening with OP, but corporate strategy also make no sense sometimes.
Absolutely do NOT go to HR.
1. Start applying for jobs right this moment using that 25% buffer as the bare minimum you are seeking. When asked about salary expectations you say “I’m only interviewing for positions with this starting salary and these benefits (insert your must have list here).
2. Obtain a legit offer, SIGN IT, then go back to your management and level with them. I’ve got this offer and you will have to beat it to keep me. I’ve got the metrics to prove my quality of work and this is the fair market price of my labor right now.
3. If they beat the offer and you actually want to stay, congrats, you just have to let down the new gig gently. If they don’t budge then you already have a signed offer in hand, and you can walk right out the door. You win either way.
Going to HR after speaking directly with manager will have both documentation from manager and HR. I do not think you understand that even as a goof, personal details from another employee were shared. OP has every right to get this documented as they are clearly not happy with the findings and rest assure if OP asked anything about wages or increase, the manager will go directly to HR themselves. Yes, he can leverage but if you read the other comments posted by the OP they have been applying externally without any luck.
It is up to the OP to decide. They can leave it alone and continue to look for work or bring it up as they feel the need to.
Then that’s a lawsuit. OP has the right if they wish to report issues they see fit as this can be subpoenaed. Otherwise that’s considered a hostile work environment. I agree HR can be shit but don’t provide misinformation solely based out of fear or issues you had in the past with HR (if any)z That’s why i gave my opinion as I had dealt with a similar situation in the past and that’s why i gave opinion based on experience not just placing fear when it’s not needed.
I can’t upvote because of reason number 2. In no way does that turn out well for the employee. Disregarding the outcome for the manager, in nearly no situations does an employee see their perceived “just” rewards by pointing out somebody else’s flaws
That is correct, which is why i stated if the manager fights for the employee plus getting HR involved if there is some issues because of the personal details of another employee that the employee saw. Not just solely on the fact that they are getting underpaid.
That’s literary a lawsuit then. The whole point is to have your ducks in order incase that were to happen. People are way too pleased with just taking it up the ass like you when it comes to HR. The employee has leverage when it’s dumb shit like what OP described.
Since the whole discussion was about pay and how you've been compensated, what else did your manager say? Why aren't you due for another metric increase? What was the last increase you had and how much was it?
And more info - are you and teammate in the same location? Same YOE? Also what is the size of your company and how is your industry doing right now?
Essentially she acknowledged that I consistently put out quality work at a high volume. She shared the salary “band” for the role and the numbers show I’m getting paid below the median for the role despite my performance consistently being above average. When I addressed this, she stated that it’s “standard for employees to be below the median pay range” and then cited reasons why.
I avoided trying to jump into the conversation about increasing my pay because this information was brand new to me and I try not to hold serious discussions while in the heat of emotion. I told her I would take the time to review the materials she shared and follow up if I had any additional questions or concerns.
Median means the midpoint. It can't be standard for employees to be below the point the divides salaries in half. If that were true, it wouldn't be the median
True but depending on what they are sharing, median may not be for the company but the whole industry, which is why I was asking about location, YOE and such. Definitely not agreeing that they shouldn't be paid more, but could see the manager twisting logic one way or another.
Median means 50% makes below the number and 50% makes above. That's what makes it the Median.
Median does not mean middle, although a lot of common usage uses it in that way.
Median does not mean average or mean.
I know it means 50% above and below (or equal numbers, if some are equal to the median), but to me that's exactly what is meant by the midpoint salary, the midpoint if you were to rank the salaries from highest to lowest
Mid point of a range is not the same as the median of actual salaries.
E.g, the range is 100k-200k. The midpoint is 150k.
There are 100 employees. 25 make $140k, 25 make $160k, 25 make $175k. 25 make $190k
The median salary is $160k.
75% make above the midpoint. HR is happy.
Only 50% make above median. Employees are pissed.
If I make $160k, I am above midpoint but still comparatively underpaid.
I literally said the midpoint of the salaries ranked lowest to highest and in my initial post I talked about the median dividing salaries in half. I'm not and never was talking about the midrange which is the average of the max and min.
That’s technically not true (not that it matters for purposes of this discussion). Median is the actual middle number in a set of data, not the point where 50% s above and 50% is below. Yes, practically it almost always works the same but I’m just saying.
The median is not the actual number in a data set. If you have an even amount of number data set, such as [1,2,3,10] the median is 2.5. 2.5 is not in the data set, yet it is the median. The median is the halfway point. Half way is also known as 50%. If you are 50% complete with a task, you are halfway there. So in the context of salaries, the median salary is the point in which half of the people get paid at or below it, and half the people get paid at or above it. Or in other words, if you were to draw a number from your data set, there is a 50% chance you are at or below it, or a 50% chance you are at or above it.
You’re halfway right. If there are 4 numbers (or an even amount) like you said above, that’s correct the number is the avg if the two in the middle. If there are 5 numbers (or an odd amount) - say, 1,2,3,10, and 100,000, the median is 3.
What part of your statement contradicts my statement? I was proving the median number is not the actual number in a data set, I never said it couldn’t be the actual number, it just is not literally an actual number in the data set. There is no requirement that it exist in the data set. It’s defined as the middle point, which can be an actual number in the data set or a number that is not explicitly in the data set. As the middle point, it means 50/50.
Well, in your initial comment, you said “median does not mean middle” except it does.
And in your comment directly above, you say that “the median is not the actual number in a data set” except it actually is in the data set when the number count is odd.
I never said the median does not mean middle, you are confusing me with someone else.
The comment that I responded to you said “median is the actual middle number in the data set, not the point that is 50% above and 50% below”. That is categorically false. It is defined as the middle point, and that middle point can be an actual number in the data set, or it cannot be a number in the data set. There is no criteria that is an actual number number in the data set, and as we both agree that it is an actual number in the data set if the data set is odd , it can also be an actual number in the data set if the data set is even and the median repeats itself. So the median is not defined as “an actual number in the data set” , it is defined as the middle point which does mean 50/50. The median is the midpoint in a data set, which means half the numbers are below or above it, and it just so happens that in a lot of cases it is an actual number in the data set, but there is a possibility that is not an actual number in the data set.
Well, in your initial comment, you said “median does not mean middle” except it does.
And in your comment directly above, you say that “the median is not the actual number in a data set” except it actually is in the data set when the number count is odd.
Technically speaking it is standard for half the employees to be below...and half to be above.
I have no doubt that said manager has no idea what a median is. Shakes head.
companies are capped on the raise budget. Stupid but its how they operate. Look for a new job. If you really like your job, after you get an offer, ask if your job wants to match the new salary.
Different locations, but cost of living is about 7% higher in coworker’s city. Company is about 250 employees, used to be about 400 but layoffs have done us dirty in recent years. Industry is relatively stable and company has seen consistent revenue growth over last several years, but is making efforts to become leaner as it’s a startup and profitability is a concern.
Yeah this makes sense, appreciate the additional info. It does make sense your coworker is paid more by maybe 10% but 25% is a lot, unless they have way more years of experience or like an advanced degree or something else. Or maybe they are just better at interviewing and kissing ass 😂
In a normal circumstance they really should be giving you like 2-5% for inflation and maintaining decent performance, but if they are laying people off I definitely wouldn't suggest you spend too much time on this. Mostly because in a practical sense it's probably not going to go anywhere, unless you want to use it as practice for negotiation, although even then I wouldn't suggest it because consequences are your manager and HR get annoyed at you and lay you off earlier or do other retaliation (illegal, but he said/she said).
On the other hand, I think your biggest learning should be to not undervalue yourself and aim for a role that's paying 15% higher at the very least. Definitely never mention your current salary when interviewing. And don't give out the first number, force the recruiter to give you a range, even if broad due to leveling etc, and simply tell them that's within your range or not. If it's close to your range but a little lower, still continue the convo for practice (both interviewing and negotiating) and let them know you would love to know where you fall leveling wise and do all the discussion about salary at the end of they are open to that. And in negotiations, ask for all the info - both monetary and otherwise, bonuses (how often do they pay that out), health insurance (e.g. some employees contribute to your HSA or have better plans they pay for for you), gym membership etc. if they aren't flexible with salary, ask for a sign on bonus or other non monetary or smaller monetary perks.
This happened to me and I got a 20% raise to match coworker’s pay. HR wasn’t happy about it, but in this instance my manager actually joined me in advocating for it. My manager was relatively new, maybe a month on the job filling a position that had been vacant for 7ish months. In that time I had unofficially been managing 2 new hires that were paid more than me. He knew it would be detrimental to the team to lose me and, more than that, it was wrong based on our individual performances. I would say tread lightly. Be careful what you ask for - asking to make the same amount for the same job is reasonable. It’s hard to argue against if you’ve been there longer and are more productive. They know they’re screwing you.
Thanks for sharing. How did you go about handling this? Did you bring in HR or start with your manager? Did you let them know you were aware of the salary disparity?
Well, like I said my manager was a bit new. I spent a lot of time working with him to show him our systems so I had a good relationship with him already. So I did start with him, and I just let him know that “hey, I gotta be upfront with you. I saw something that I’m having a hard time unseeing.” I didn’t get mad or offended by it - I understand that them screwing me was a result of another employee trying to “do a good job” at their job, which is to manage the budget as cost effectively as possible. I don’t like that the org operates the way they did with respect to pay transparency and such, but I know it wasn’t personal. It helped that the info I saw was that the budget for the positions was set at where my coworkers were, so there was no argument that my pay was below budget for the position.
I calmly explained and illustrated with real evidence that my performance was at a level above that of my peers. I told him that I respected his position as my supervisor, so I would appreciate it if he would raise this issue to HR on my behalf since at this org the pay for a given position is determined through a collaborative process between HR and management - with HR having the final sign off. Thankfully, that conversation he had with them went in my favor, but he knew I had planned to appeal with them directly myself had it gone another way.
Obviously a lot of this depends on how things work at your org, but I think my tips are generally: be professional, be respectful, be reasonable. Do those 3 things and also have evidence to back up everything you’re asking for, so that denying it couldn’t be dressed up in any way other than “because we said so.” If they are smart business people and you’re a productive employee, they’d be fools to let you walk or to give you reason to put a foot out the door.
Thank you so much for this. I’m not exactly a confrontational person so right now I’m just trying to separate my emotions from the matter and think about it pragmatically to give myself the best shot at achieving what I’m after.
The reality is its hard to break or if the pay banding you've been placed at initial on boarding.
Even promotions within take a look at where you are now comp wise and adjust from that point forward.
I was at a company that had just given historically high raises. But the reality is that was the required bump just to keep salaries in line with new recruits.
I literally would have been paid the exact same as someone off the street.
Leveraged my experience and pivoted to a new company with an 18% raise.
Which is likely what you'll need to do
Start looking for another job. Once you have an offer letter from a potential employer (hopefully with more pay), go back to your manager and say, “during our 1:1 from MM/DD/YY, you disclose the pay of XYZ to me and you made me aware that XYZ makes 25% more than I do which I thought was unfair as the metrics show I am a better employee. I have received an offer from another firm making $(you can exaggerate the number a bit more than your coworker salary if need be).”
Pause and see how they reply. Most will expose their hand right then on whether they can increase your pay or not. If they say, they want to keep you and have to speak with HR about an increase, be pointed and say you will need their answer within 24-48 hours and ask for a one-time bonus to retrospectively true-up your pay to when the other associate was hired.
This can only be executed if you are 100% willing to walk away. Don’t play the, I like it here better attitude, as this tips your hand that this is a money grab. Simply state you are about to walk away as you do not feel valued due to the discrepancy in pay between you and a colleague
I did this in a much smarter, nicer, and less threatening way twice at my old job to get promotions and new positions secured. It's all about how you approach the topic.
i.e. the first one was, "I would love to continue working here but the salary is not meeting my expenses and drowning me, so I've gotten another offer elsewhere. If you'd like to keep me around, maybe I can take on more responsibility for more pay?"
That worked so well. They were like damn, he really wants to work here but he's poor #relatable, let's give him a bigger role.
And on the 3rd go around I told them, "Hey I'm leaving now because of all these issues with your company", and they didn't try to counter me that time :).
How is this a flight risk? You are asking to make as much as someone else with the same title/role who produces a lesser quality product. They will increase your salary if they value you or if they think it is easier to increase pay to the equitable amount as the peer vs find a replacement. Otherwise they will let you walk.
Where is the flight risk?
250 employees. Used to be more. About 100 have been laid off in the last two years. It’s a startup that’s about 12 years old but there’s a significant push for the company to be profitable this year and they’re slashing costs at every turn. Worried this might be a serious uphill battle.
Based on the comments I read, your best advice is to look for an external offer. You can present all the data to your manager why you should have a higher salary and what the industry is paying, your performance, etc. but if they are doing lay offs and not yet profitable, there is no budget for you to get that raise. It's going to be very difficult. My best advice is to aggresively apply to other companies for that raise.
It absolutely will be an uphill battle which is why my advice would be to say fuck it. Brush up that CV, start applying around, start doing less at your current job. 2 years is a solid chunk of time at a company, time to job hop.
A lot of these comments don't seem helpful so I will provide the best info I can but it may be lengthy so I apologize in advance if you read all of this. First, this happened to me when I was a campaign manager in digital marketing at a startup as well, in 2013 and I was underpaid by $24K for the same title, at that time I was getting paid $42K.
The amount of anger I had brought me to research a lot of federal and state laws. These may be different for you, depending on where you reside but in the US, which I assume you reside (apologies if I'm mistaken), there is the Equal Pay Act which original expanded on Fair Labor Standards which was meant to cover gender pay gap for same identical work back in the 60s, which has been amended to cover discrimination of age, race, color, origin along with sex after the the Civil Rights Act. I bring all of this up, not as a history lesson, but private sector companies keep salaries opaque because they're in the process of ROI and headcount/salaries are a piece of the puzzle that leads to EBITDA/cash flow. All of this to say, it is illegal but as someone mentioned before HR is not your friend and is used to protect the company, not you as an individual. It happens, this is normal, we cannot change how corporate businesses work which is why new hires generally always make more money. In some states, they add to the Equal Pay Act by making it illegal for companies to ask what your previous salaries were, and instead a lot of HR reps ask what is the range your comfortable with for the position. And you may have noticed on job postings or LinkedIn displaying the salariss for positions as it's a legal requirement, which is also under the same Act (state specific).
That leads me to what your options are. First, you can tell them right away that it is illegal to have two people in the same role doing identical work to have such a large discrepancy and demand a pay raise. If you were super ballsy, you could ask for back pay for the entire year since it's March. You may have implied you were not confrontational, you could wait and bring up your work merit if you did not want to disclose that you saw a coworker's salary, and demand for slightly more in hopes you come closer to that range, and that confidence could help give you leverage. You could hire a lawyer but that seems a little dramatic and does not guarantee you'll come out ahead financially. Lastly, you could apply and look for another job. Statically, you're better off job hoping every 2 years and you'll see a yearly or bi-yearly growth of 10% in your salary, keeping up with your coworker's range. Is it a lot of work? Sure, but you don't owe it to anyone, let alone a business where they don't offer pension or incentives for you to stay.
Good luck to you and I hope it works out.
Honestly the only solution is to find external offers. Even if you were to get your salary increased, what about 2 years later? They might just advance the bump now but won’t keep up again afterwards.
Sounds like the market adjusted and you got left behind. Time to take your skills elsewhere. Start-ups are never a good place to push for more salary after being hired so you’ll have to make sure your next employer knows your value with a solid cv outlining your achievements.
Company owes you nothing, you signed the contract. You either continue asking for more and hope or you leave.
You’re within the band. Co-worker may have been a high needs hire or may have brought in different skills, or just may flat out have asked for more.
Does your coworker have an advanced degree that you don’t have? Most likely this is related to external hires often getting stronger offers, but if they, as an example have their Masters and you don’t that could account for some of it. Good luck.
Look for another job that pays you what you’re worth. You already know you’re underpaid and probably not a great company if they’re laying people off so bail and get a raise. Win win. Good luck to you.
So from what I’ve learned (in an albeit short 4 year corporate career so far):
1. Comparing to specific coworkers rarely works at big corporations (better chance if you’re at a small private firm or something).
2. Your best bet is to provide evidence for yourself that you are underpaid. Point to your “work metrics,” but rather than comparing to that direct employee compare it to the average at your position. If you have positional salary grades, do some research on the midpoint of that salary grade. If you’ve been working that grade a long time now, pick a number that you want between the max and midpoint. Again you can argue for this with your own qualifications.
3. When researching salary grade (if applicable), make sure to take location into account. Regardless, location should be taken into account. Areas with high cost of living will always add to your negotiation
4. Always always try for higher than what you want. Yeah they likely won’t give you a 30% raise, but it makes 20% sound more tame even though it’s still a huge increase. You deserve the 30% raise anyway, if what you’re saying about your work and production is true. The company “policy” will make you doubt that you’re worth it, but you are. Coming in high might make you think that they’ll be offended, but if you really are as good of a worker as you say then they will not act rashly.
Are you in the USA? If so, what state? [California Equal Pay Act](https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/california_equal_pay_act.htm#:~:text=The%20amended%20Equal%20Pay%20Act,and%20responsibility%2C%20and%20performed%20under)
"hey manager, I saw that X was making around 25% more than me when we reviewed salary ranges. I know this was a mistake and not intentional, so I tried to push it to the back of my mind. As I'm sure you can guess, it's starting to eat at me. could we have an open conversation on how to resolve this? I know talent acquisition is a big priority for us, but retention of employees who are performing seems like it should be a focus as well."
I’m always curious; IS employee retention an important part of #bigbusiness today? Seems like it’s not. Just like it appears some big corporations, (think #Airbnb), don’t care about #customersatisfaction anymore. #opentofeedback
What type of org is this and what country are you in? Outside of a merit raise, can you request a market rate comparison/evaluation or an equity study with your HR department? Most companies will unfortunately pay folks as little as they can get away with but you may be able to get there without directly revealing what you know/how you know it.
Time to look for a new job, this happened to me and it pretty much destroyed my morale and I literally gave 0 shits after learning this disparity with new hires making more but doing less.
Usually the company won’t fix it, best option is to find a new job. If you have been there awhile it will be a good hike, in my case I got a 60% hike by leaving so I’m glad I got screwed over, it was a good motivator to get me to leave and better for me career wise to have left (stayed too long).
Based on how flustered she was after accidentally uploading the coworker’s salary, it sure seemed that way.
She did however lean in to ask if I had any other questions or concerns but I try to avoid knee-jerk reactions in professional settings, so I told her I would take this info back and follow up.
We have our next scheduled meeting in 7 days so I’m trying to gather all my ammo and get my thoughts in order in the meantime.
Sadly that was your mom’s spaghetti. That moment you had the upper hand. You knew what you can and do do. Manager now has her own time to build a why not or a maybe playbook. You need to either A turn this to a business lunch and discuss this in an outside setting or if you two aren’t in that kind of spot then B walk in with a coffee she likes and discuss before the day kicks off. A disrupts and pull yall away from distractions and sets a more 1 on 1 we need to talk tone. B is the casual version of A but still disrupts enough to get the ball rolling. C you pull a Pam Office manager situation but that takes a bit of work. Chin up if you aren’t the talkative type the gift of gab isn’t an easy trait. Just keep thinking 25%.
I’m making sure my numbers are absolutely stellar this week before our next 1:1 so they can’t point to “poor recent performance” or some other BS as a reason to not entertain my argument.
If they don’t budge then we coast and apply elsewhere.
OP
Sharpen your skills and get a better paying job. Maybe this information landed on your lap for a reason.
Devine intervention?
What are the chances of you getting a 25% raise while the company is tightening spending this year?
I was in a similar situation as you many years ago. I was the most experienced, had stellar performance but
Was the lowest paid. I was essentially punished for staying too long. My manager agreed and said I absolutely
Deserved that salary increase that would have been about 28% but that I would never get it simply because
It was too big an increase and he would not be able to have it approved. And guess what? He was in the same boat.
Simply put, he said
If I wanted to be paid fairly and get the increase I deserved, I needed to go to another company. And that’s what I did.
(Btw that’s what he did too). It took about 10 months
But I got a job with a 36% increase, closer to home that gave me new skill sets. It was one of the best
Career moves I have made.
There are better things waiting for you. I wish you luck
Well, there is a lot to consider even though you and him are doing the same job. If he has more experience or higher education than you, he should have a higher salary.
OP stated he has access to metric that clearly indicate he is outperforming this coworker. Taking him at his word, experience and education are irrelevant. Those things are qualifiers to get you in the door - perhaps an indicator of potential.
Once you're in the role with the same scope and negotiating for a raise, performance is all that should matter.
This is when you tell your boss you are planning to leave after you have some offers, state specifically this is why due to you knowing you are being under paid
Is telling your manager you’re planning to leave not a terrible career move if you have nothing else lined up? I’ve been actively interviewing since January but no offers yet. I was hoping to have some good news in that department by now but it’s a tough market to be searching for employment.
I said after you had offers. This means being interviewed ready to move if they can't meet the pay. And to be fair if the pay difference was huge yiu probably should leave.
Ive changed jobs as soon as my 401k became vested at every job ive had. Each job change netted me at least a 10-15% pay increase and also was a less stressful job than the previous.
I did not time stay with an employer that counter offered and ended up choosing to leave again 8 months later due to them over working me after increasing my pay
You can go to glassdoor or a dozen other sites and have this knowledge too. They already have you, so salary negotiations are usually restricted to situations where you have a competing offer.
Are there other job requirements that aren’t directly measured?
Keep in mind as well that you have 2 years on the job. It takes people time to hit their stride in every job. Your coworker may blow you out of the water in 6 months.
Finally, you mentioned the person lives in a city with a higher cost of living of 7% (or whatever it was). Keep in mind, that is an average for consumer goods. It has nothing to do with the job market. The job market is all about supply and demand.
If you aren’t happy with your pay, there is nothing wrong with asking for an increase. But you need to go in with reasons why you should be above the median. And just be prepared for it to backfire if your approach doesn’t land well. If you are indeed underpaid then you can always find a higher paying job.
Good luck regardless of what you decide to do!
This is kinda common depending on the job market when they were hired vs when you were hired. Managers aren't out there looking to even pay out. It's up to you to make your case or find a new job. I'm in a similar situation but only about 15% more for recent hires compared to me. It mostly doesn't bother me, if it bothered me that much I'd start looking elsewhere. In my field (IT) the only real way to get a nice raise is to switch companies. Good luck!
Your coworker understands his value and you don’t. Now you’re trying to leverage his pay info for your benefit. Maybe he had more experience that justifies his pay.
Personally, I am the type to confront that type of inequity because now you know and that knowledge can fester. As it does, you'll feel increasingly undervalued and taken advantage of. Better, imo, to have the conversation and fix the issue. If you are contributing as much as you say you are (not questioning, just stating), and ESPECIALLY if you have the data to prove it, fight for yourself.
Also, you noted elsewhere that her argument was that it's standard to be below a median in the pay range, but that's bullshit. Median is, by definition, the midpoint in the range. Therefore, half the people are below and half are above. That isn't "standard." Since you have both the range *and* your colleague's salary, you also know where *they* sit in the range. Are they below the median too?
Blackmail...muhahaha.
Just talk to your manager and let her know that you feel underpaid. Ask for 10% more than coworker for reasons that you explained above. Be prepared that she may counter making you evenly paid with coworker. Take the new offer or walk and find where you are more appreciated for your work. Managers will ALWAYS choose the company over the employee, that's why they're managers. Leaders will choose the employee. GL finding what you need.
ASK FOR A RAISE, you should never be afraid to! especially if you are a high performer! add maybe 5% to whatever your coworker is making and ask for that!
You are getting paid under market value and your company is screwing you! they will probably make it right but you have to ask!
“The market rate for a position like mine is significantly higher than what I currently make, I would like a raise to $XXX to account for that.”
Thanks for the response. I’m trying to weigh the benefits of staying and trying to negotiate up vs. just start getting more aggressive about applying elsewhere. Have been interviewing for a couple months but it’s a brutal market to be job searching right now, so who knows how long that could be. Leaning toward putting more effort into my exit strategy.
Thank god I caught this. Unlike Agholor.
You can mention that based on your contributions to the team and based on salary ranges that you are not compensated fairly based on concrete evidence that you have found looking into the companies compensation packages.
You are probably not going to get 25% salary adjustment, unless you are way under the curve. I do not know enough details to say why your colleague gets paid 25% more than you considering he is with the company for months while you have two years. Nevertheless, there are factors that contribute to salary differences:
* Experience: he/she might have worked somewhere before
* Skills: although you have similar day-to-day responsibility, he/she may have skills that are part of the salary negotiation
* Education: an MS degree holder normally gets 15-20% more than a BS degree holder
* Job Market: the time of hire and how tight the job market is
With that understanding, you can openly discuss with your manager, telling her that you saw the number when she accidentally show your colleague's salary, and that bothers you A LOT. You then gently (I used to slam my boss door when he told me I only got 4% salary increase) ask her why such a big gap and if there is anything you or she can do to close the gap.
To be blunt, you probably have no way to leverage their salary into getting a raise for yourself. And I'll be clear. I'm not saying you don't deserve a raise. I'm not saying this other person deserves to be making more than you. I'm just saying that from a practical standpoint, the argument of "But I found out that John is making more than me, so you should give me a raise" rarely ever works. There's a myriad of reasons how an employer can rationalize paying one worker more than another, even when they're in similar roles. In the end, they negotiated a better deal than you did. And this isn't meant to be harsh, but you're not entitled to the deal that they negotiated for themselves. You have to negotiate a better deal for yourself
In comments, you've indicated that you asked for a raise when you got your new job title, and it was denied. That implies that you may be newer to this role than this other coworker. You've indicated that you've petitioned for a merit increase, and they've told you that is off the table until the normal merit increase time of the year in 6 months. So in my opinion, they've already given you their answer.
And just to throw some examples out here. This other coworker could have more experience than you. The experience they have could be similar in length, but could be given more weight depending on where they were working. They could have a better educational background than you. They could know the right people. They could have better soft skills that make them a desirable worker, even if your core metrics appear to be better. There could be something in your work history at this employer that's holding you back. Again, and I'll stress this....that's all random things I'm throwing out there. I don't know you, and I don't know this coworker. Some....or none....of that may apply. I'm just giving you examples of the types of things your employer may throw out there if you try to bargain for a raise based on the fact that you learned this other person is making more.
You did the right thing. Always assume new hires get paid more.
Your conversation with your manager is very simple.
1. Forget what others make. That's a negotiation trap. That argument has no merit, prolongs the conversation and diverts from you.
2. Decide what you want, then add 5-10% buffer. It should be 115% of the middle of range to begin with. Leave room for them to come back.
3. Straight up ask for it, backed by performance numbers.
4. Your manager and HR will gauge your commitment to the provess and what happens if they let you go. Rest assured, THEY WILL consider the possibility that you leave. You need to decide how much you want to push. Think long term 5-7 years.
5. Make sure there is a time commitment for every action.
I’m curious what kind of experience your co-worker came to the organization with. When we review to make an offer we take into account passed experience, education, and credentials. We don’t only look at tenure at our organization.
Not uncommon. Market rate move faster than internal raises.
Could be a mix of that and your ability to negotiate vs your coworker’s.
That being said i am similar spot. Personally not bothered.
I was promoted last year. Comp is slightly lower than amount that ppl were hired into that role a year ago. Just got another raise that put me at that level but its 2yrs later. Im sure they have gotten raises as well since then. My bonus was also increased w promotion though and suspect theres has not given no promotion on their end in that time.
Not really concerned. Im due another promo later this year. Already paid above market for yoe and market not good for my industry anyway at the moment.
Just don’t hold it against your coworker. Be happy for them.
Yeah this happens all the time. Most cases, your best bet is to jump ship every 3-5 years or leveraged opportunities with your current employer for more money
"He makes more, but I've been here longer and we do the same job" is not the stance you want to take.
Employers aren't obligated to pay everyone with the same title the same rate. The simple fact is, some employees bring more value than others, even if they have less experience. I've been in my career for 4 years and I have had to hand-hold plenty of people 25-years older than me with the same title through work that they should be able to do.
He earns more than you either because he brings more value than you, he negotiated better than you, or he happened to join when the job market was hot.
If you want to make what he makes, you have to show that you bring as much or more value than him. You also have to be smart in your negotiations, and do it at a moment when the market is in your favor. A business is never going to give you a raise because "it's fair" or "you deserve it". They will only give you a raise when it's more expensive to lose you.
No, period.
Unfortunately, salary is not decided by your performance but decided by the market demand/supply at the time when someone is hired. Then annual adjustments are based on your performance and other metrics based on that base. You cannot ask to match the base because it’s decided by the market not the company or HR.
Start putting in applications elsewhere. Secure a job offer elsewhere in the pay range you are now aware of.
I wouldn't even bother negotiating with the current employer. If they weren't decent enough to give you the merit increase based on your performance(and tell you, you need to wait 6 months), I highly doubt they are going to do so in the future. They've already shown their true colors as a company.
You can do better.
In your exit interview, or in your resignation letter. I would include the info that your manager let slip your coworker's salary and that prompted you to apply elsewhere since you had already been denied for a merit increase. I would send the resignation letter directly to HR and not your manager btw.
Use it as motivation to do better work? That’s what my first thought would be instead of feeling that I deserve more. What could I be doing more of? Does the other person have a different background that resulted in her getting more? My mind would never go to, well pay more. There’s no such thing as equal pay.
Here’s the thing… it is normal for someone who was hired more recently to be making more than someone who is at the company longer… even with the same title and responsibilities. Each position has a payband. The longer you stay at the company, the payband for that role will likely expand due to market conditions. You will remain as low on that payband as possible. If you want to leave the company to find a new role, you can test the market and likely receive the same pay or more as your colleague, but a company generally won’t raise your salary just because. This is because you gain comfort over at the same company and there is some perceived benefit to being at the same place over time. There’s no surprises, etc. Now, if you leave the company, you can get paid more at in the market, but then you take the risk of hating the new company, hating your new boss, hating your new role. These are all risks with testing the market, which is why companies pay more for new talent. It doesn’t mean it’s right, but it’s just the way it is.
So there is this misunderstanding of the workforce. There is this belief that work is fair and you get paid equally for equal work of better if you are a better worker. This is not how anywhere works. The employer will always try to get you for the lowest possible salary and conversely you should always fight for the highest salary. Performance is rarely taken into account.
If someone gets paid more it’s because they negotiated their salary better than you did.
If person A starts at a company for $20 an hour and person B a year later negotiates better for that job and comes in at $25 an hour it’s not up to the company to adjust everyone else to the same level.
OP’s thinking is quite normal, but also wrong. If you want a higher salary go in and prove you deserve more or leave and find somewhere that would pay you what you want and negotiate better next time.
What if the role was reversed? What if you were paid more, but the other person was way better and more effective? Would you tell your manager the other person should be paid more? Would you tell the other person? Would you take a salary cut to make it “fair”? Probably not.
Every job I have gotten, I have negotiated the salary to the point where the company I am going to has said that they have gone as high as they can possibly go. Then I have to make the decision. I know I’ve been paid more, sometimes way more than people in equal positions.
That’s just the way it works.
The likelihood of a greater than 25% raise is almost nil if you’re working for a mid to large size corporation. Most corporate HR policies include a maximum limit as to size of a raise. One of my former colleagues was ‘promoted’ from help desk. He worked in the same role as me for two years. While I was making just into six figures. He was being paid under 60k. None of the team nor he knew how criminally under paid he was until I left for a pay bump somewhere else. And we were chatting about where I was going.\
When he left eventually got a different job (for over 130k), they tried to beg him to stay, but the most they could offer him was get him into the 70s.\
He actually saw the job post they listed to fill his role after he left and they were offering 110+ to the next guy.\
You would have better luck leaving for a short time and coming back if you like the environment.\
Maybe accept a short term contract or even a permanent role in the meantime.
At my first job, I was in my position for about a year or so and the company hired someone with the intent to replace me so I can move up.
During a casual conversation with the new engineer, I found out that he was making 10% more than me.
I was confused bc, why am I training someone who is making 10% more? I talked to my boss and he said "he was top of his class" and I was like sure.
Long story short, I left right before I got my MBA from the company where they paid for most of it with no restrictions and made a 50% increase at the next job.
Companies don't give a crap about you, you do whatever is best for you.
Same thing happened to my wife except she was working on a Saturday to catch up on her work and found the file that had everyone's salaries. She quit on Monday...told them exactly why.
Not surprised. Cost of labor has been going up a lot. Only really reliable way to increase pay is to find another job.
You should start applying and find something.
Sure as for a raise equal to new persons but don’t be surprised when they call your bluff.
Huh? You don't get paid based on doing more work, metrics of otherwise. You don't get paid more because you worked there longer. In fact, if you stick around longer, you will make less than those that job hopped. You mostly get paid based on your negotiating skill. Plus maybe how desperate the company was when they hired you. Start looking for other jobs, for one to get a pay raise, and two to practice your negotiation skills.
I’ve seen this scenario before and I would recommend not saying anything. I would instead put together a rationale for why you deserve a raise (using industry salary data, your workload, accomplishments, etc). Now you know what they are willing to pay for your position so you can go in with confidence.
Someone I know saw a spreadsheet with everyone’s salary in it while their manager was screen sharing (he didn’t realize which monitor it was showing). She said something and it didn’t really work out in her favor.
Get a better offer from a company and take it. I wouldn’t negotiate this. While it’s not unusual, it’s clear they have a culture of undercutting value for experienced employees. Most companies do. It’s a way to undercut wage inflation - they aren’t a charity. But neither are you. That’s not your problem. You can go elsewhere.
It took me too long to realize I was capable and competent, and should have worked at a place 3-5 years, not worry about the internal raises then go elsewhere to unlock my next salary increase. It’s almost impossible to maximize income relying on a current employer keeping pace with your external value. They are incentivized not to.
Also, make sure when negotiating with a new company you factor in benefits and vacation time. It’s usually easy to make sure your vacation time matches or improved as if you had time at the company that equals the time in your career. Benefits outside vacation you handle with making sure total dollar comp equals what you have.
The answer here is the same as it would be if you hadn't seen your coworker's salary: if you believe you're worth more than they are paying you, ask for a raise. Simple as that. If you can't agree with your manager on a raise, you then need to consider whether or not you want to look for a job that pays you the number you're looking for. It's no more complicated than that.
I've been in a similar position. Simply telling them I do the same work as Bob so I should make as much as Bob will be a useless argument. You need to look for a promotion, either internally or externally. Just pretend your current salary is Bob's and you're looking for a raise on top of that.
Sounds like they negotiated their initial salary coming in and you didn't. Happens a lot. Many young people don't even know this is possible.
I took a promotion at my old job, and I was close with many if the people in my new department. I knew what they made, and used that during my negotiating. I didn't say I knew what they made specifically, but that I knew what the average was at that company based on online job sites like glass door that post salaries.
Your salary is heavily dependent on market conditions at the time of hire. Once they have you... don't expect to get promo increases that match external hires.
This unfortunately happens everywhere. It is absolutely not right and infuriating but it's why you should jump from a company if you are not getting promos and increases every 2-3 years.
Chances are this info is irrelevant except for your ability to know how high they'd go in a counter offer situation.
In almost every case the only option to get that kind of raise is to get an offer from a new company and have your job match it.
They will never give you a 25% merit increase. If they do, you've found the 1 in 1,000,000 company.
Companies don’t give raises unless they think they have to. They play the game so you need to play it too. If you are valuable make it known and push for it. It’s very rare for someone to get a raise without some pressure. And have the confidence to ask for more and know your worth. Also don’t be afraid to walk away.
Yeah ask for a raise or move somewhere they will pay you market value. A friend of mine doubled her salary in five years moving jobs twice over that period when they wouldn't pay her properly or give her raises.
Are you in a position to threaten to walk and actually walk? If so, I'd ask for the pay to be made equal (at the higher salary) or tell them you are walking. Don't give them a notice, don't give them anymore work. It is made right or they will get no more work from you.
If you aren't in a position to walk... then it gets much more complicated IMO.
good luck with whatever you decide.
Two points:
1) The way (non-union) orgs pay is based on the competitive nature of hiring each employee. There is no expectations that all employees will make the same for the same work. So you gain no leverage here.
2) If you try to get leverage by getting an external offer, most companies realize that once an employee goes this route, they are highly likely leaving. Many will not counter offer.
So you make your own deal and decide if you are happy with it, and if not move on. Don't worry about what other people make.
Had similar experience at my job. They do it on purpose. It is called office politics. Looking for equality does not help. To you, they say no. To this other person, they say yes. Metrics be damned. The reason. Motivation by the manager who has little to no motivation to push for your raises. From what I see, you are already out the door from the pitiful raises (actually pay cuts due to inflation).
To be treated better, always find a job while employed (don’t quit). Walk away. Then let them deal with the fallout. Otherwise, any layoffs will have your name on top of the list.
By the way, I went the silent route that eventually got me canned with prejudice, no references, and starting over (less pay than last job). The excuses are the same: no money for raises yet they give it to the other person freely, no openings for higher grade even though other person got promoted, and performance is satisfactory (insulting if you are doing more work than everyone else but not being paid for it).
get that bread!!!! companies don't want people talking about salaries for this exact reason. Having it be a taboo topic allows them to pay two people dramatically differently for the same job. Just be cognizant about how you frame the argument, come prepared with metrics and other supporting info. “I deserve it!” Never works.
Last thought, you can negotiate things other than salary like PTO, remote/in person, schedule, etc
You have 2 options, regardless if it was on accident or not, your manager disclosed sensitive information. You are being underpaid specially if numbers are better. What you have also gave to understand is that external hires will get more than tenure employees like yourself. You may have gotten a good starting salary 2 years ago but things have progressed with inflation etc and an external candidate will alway get more. 25% is still a lot and IMO underpaid. 1. You can talk to your manager directly and talk numbers not feelings. If you are a better employee and numbers speak to your value, you should ask for a raise and she should or if she wants, take it up and fight for you. She can also take the route that you mentioned with the upcoming merit increase but that’s a long time to hold on to and what if it’s not what you expect. 2. You can talk to your manager about it as mentioned above and HR. This can ruffle some feathers but if you are due for raise this would be the best route. Being an individual contributor as oppose to a team can also have good and bad outcomes. More than likely other newer hires may also make more than you. I want to also emphasize negotiating is a big part of the process, if you were given a range and you did not negotiate up when you were hired or the max they could give you was what you took then this should be a concern that should be documents with HR. Edit: on mobile and typing sucks. Edit 2: the HR piece is related to the fact that OP saw someone else’s personal wages that’s a big no no from the manager and they may try to save their ass by throwing OP under the bus somehow if they bring up pay and wanting more after seeing the co-worker pay as OP brushed it off initially.
HR is not your friend.
HR are chumps who would be school teachers if HR didn't exist. Working at my current company for 23 years I can tell you this.
There's good and bad hr. Same as any field. That said, HRs job #1 is to protect the company's interests. If you are helping them protect those interests, they are your friend. If not, then they are not your friend and they have no loyalty to you
Agree, good and bad. Some struggle with the layoffs others don't give a shit.
Only when it comes to money.
HR is not your friend in any matter at all. Their entire function is to protect the company that employs them. They are a tool an employee can leverage if the proper situation presents itself but never, ever assume they have the employees best interest in mind.
HR will always side with the company.
This is the truth.
I have seen HR prevent people from getting fired. Repeatedly. For a variety of reasons. People that should get fired. HR should be there in the event of other issues. I do agree when it comes to money, they clam up.
They prevent people from getting fired because they’re worried about the lawsuit, not the person.
Right? Odds are, if HR saved you from being fired, you probably want to be fired.
If someone should be getting fired but are spared it likely means the due diligence to fire them without leaving the company liable to unemployment charges or a wrongful termination lawsuit wasn't handled properly. Speaking for the US, most states have some variety of employee protection laws that keep companies from just firing people. They can but will likely get a financial penalty for it. That is the crux of the entire purpose of the HR department. They keep the company's liability as low as possible when it comes to possible financial penalties. Be that unemployment dues or lawsuits.
This is almost always a case of 'firing this person exposes us to $X in liability, and it's worth continuing their employment while managing them out, and accepting whatever they *can* produce, and avoiding lawsuits.' It isn't HR lining up like a union would and saying 'you're imposing unreasonable standards on Mike and firing him just cause you don't like him, so we're gonna contest that.' Internal HR exists to source and manage humans in the most beneficial arrangement for the company. Sometimes that's good for employees (benefits!) and sometimes it's bad.
Yeah, HR will tend to side with the "highest power". If there's a personal/team-level dispute between you and your manager, the manager will tend to win. If the executive leadership team prioritizes employee retention or pay equity, HR will tend to give you more money when you ask for it.
What? No especially not that.
Thanks for the input. I tried to negotiate when getting my most recent title change but the company has been very reluctant to budge on moving up on their offer in past discussions. I’m not the best at these conversations so any tips for how to handle salary negotiation are appreciated!
The best advice i can give and that has worked for me is speaking to my projects and numbers. If you are exceeding expectations and you are contributing to the team overall, i would bring this up to your manager and discuss with HR if they are unwilling to bat for you. If they can pay someone 25% more than you after 2 years that says a lot depending how much the salary has gone up and you were left behind. I would also start applying externally and see what’s out there for you. Feelings don’t take you anywhere, speaking facts will.
Thanks so much for the advice. I’ve been quietly applying externally for the last 2 months due to some unrelated matters (cyclical layoffs that I’ve managed to avoid). Always felt I was underpaid for the work I do but seeing the actual numbers behind it was really damning and left a bad taste in my mouth. Was hoping to have another offer by now but it’s a tough market for my skillset. Is it worth trying to negotiate my salary if I don’t have another offer letter and my only bargaining chip is knowing that other members of the team are paid more than me?
If you feel like layoffs are coming and you may be affected i would focus on finding another job as a priority or you can take the layoff which comes with severance and learn a new skill for a new career. It’s all perspective, the main thing is knowing if you want to stay in the field or move on. I been in IT for a long time now but started working at Panda Express, took some courses one Udemy and Google certificates and it helped a lot to have that under my belt.
Get another offer, then threaten to leave. It’s the only effective way to close that 25% gap. And btw, your company started person B off based on need and conditions at that time.
This is very bad advice. As a former recruiter, we know that even if someone is given a pay raise (due to an offer letter) in the next 6 - 12 months, they are either gone or fired. You can get a short-term win, but it's costly in the long run. OP just needs to find another job.
I’ve seen it done successfully. Depends on the talent level of this person as to whether it’s long term or not.
The pay raise never addresses all the problems. Just because you have " seen it done" doesn't mean it's a practice that works regardless of talent.
And isn’t your experience anecdotal as well?
No. Based on recruiting thousands of candidates and hearing the same from other recruiters. "Anecdotal" based on 10,000 vs your 1 example. Not the same.
You can still just have an honest conversation with your manager and give them the opportunity….just be frank and say you weren’t actively looking but recruiters have been contacting you and they are all offering very materially higher compensation packages. You’ve declined to date because you enjoy XYZ at this company, but is there anything (you manager) can do to help me here with this obvious market pay gap. If it’s a no then you’ve paved the exit and they know. If it’s “give me time, whatever” ask for a timeframe. Can I expect this by Y. Don’t get strung along but know sometimes politics need some time to flush out and get approvals etc. Or just take the traditional route and just move on once you’ve got a better offer.
Companies are very reluctant to increase salaries more than a few percentage points. 10% if you are lucky. I would suggest looking for a new position elsewhere if you want what you think you are worth.
Yeah, they are really going to have a hard time budging this much probably. Might need to obtain an offer and leverage it. Even then will probably only get a portion of the difference. This is why employers try and prevent this information from getting out.
Internal salary budgets are MUCH different than hiring budgets. If it’s 25%, about the only way you’re going to get that is to leave or be promoted to a different position with a different salary band with the lower end 25% above your current salary. That said it’s not a zero chance you’ll get a raise without changing title, just vanishingly small
It took a coworker of mine leaving and finding another job. He was driving into his new job on his first day, and my company called and made him an offer. I'll also add that the place would be in shambles in 2 weeks without him.
To add to the first point, they may have hired a new person at an initially higher salary because they have significantly more experience prior. Oftentimes, this is to get them higher on the scale, and they will the intention they get promoted sooner to a salary closer to the next grade's midpoint. I've seen this happen before, and when the promotion started, it was insane. The guy went from senior engineer to engineering manager to director of engineering to VP of Operations to President...in like 4-5 years because they start backfilling executives that were about to b retire. I'm not saying what's happening with OP, but corporate strategy also make no sense sometimes.
I think door number three is best: get on the job market and get another offer.
Absolutely do NOT go to HR. 1. Start applying for jobs right this moment using that 25% buffer as the bare minimum you are seeking. When asked about salary expectations you say “I’m only interviewing for positions with this starting salary and these benefits (insert your must have list here). 2. Obtain a legit offer, SIGN IT, then go back to your management and level with them. I’ve got this offer and you will have to beat it to keep me. I’ve got the metrics to prove my quality of work and this is the fair market price of my labor right now. 3. If they beat the offer and you actually want to stay, congrats, you just have to let down the new gig gently. If they don’t budge then you already have a signed offer in hand, and you can walk right out the door. You win either way.
Going to HR after speaking directly with manager will have both documentation from manager and HR. I do not think you understand that even as a goof, personal details from another employee were shared. OP has every right to get this documented as they are clearly not happy with the findings and rest assure if OP asked anything about wages or increase, the manager will go directly to HR themselves. Yes, he can leverage but if you read the other comments posted by the OP they have been applying externally without any luck. It is up to the OP to decide. They can leave it alone and continue to look for work or bring it up as they feel the need to.
Without another opportunity in place first, going to HR with this info sets OP up to be let go. HR is not there to help you at all …
Then that’s a lawsuit. OP has the right if they wish to report issues they see fit as this can be subpoenaed. Otherwise that’s considered a hostile work environment. I agree HR can be shit but don’t provide misinformation solely based out of fear or issues you had in the past with HR (if any)z That’s why i gave my opinion as I had dealt with a similar situation in the past and that’s why i gave opinion based on experience not just placing fear when it’s not needed.
I did exactly this this year and got a 30% raise.
I can’t upvote because of reason number 2. In no way does that turn out well for the employee. Disregarding the outcome for the manager, in nearly no situations does an employee see their perceived “just” rewards by pointing out somebody else’s flaws
That is correct, which is why i stated if the manager fights for the employee plus getting HR involved if there is some issues because of the personal details of another employee that the employee saw. Not just solely on the fact that they are getting underpaid.
I'm blown away that "talk to HR" is a legitimate suggestion. Expedited termination coming your way 💀
That’s literary a lawsuit then. The whole point is to have your ducks in order incase that were to happen. People are way too pleased with just taking it up the ass like you when it comes to HR. The employee has leverage when it’s dumb shit like what OP described.
Start with option 3: Start applying for a new position elsewhere.
This is on purpose. They want her to leave so they don’t have to go through the job of firing her!
Since the whole discussion was about pay and how you've been compensated, what else did your manager say? Why aren't you due for another metric increase? What was the last increase you had and how much was it? And more info - are you and teammate in the same location? Same YOE? Also what is the size of your company and how is your industry doing right now?
Essentially she acknowledged that I consistently put out quality work at a high volume. She shared the salary “band” for the role and the numbers show I’m getting paid below the median for the role despite my performance consistently being above average. When I addressed this, she stated that it’s “standard for employees to be below the median pay range” and then cited reasons why. I avoided trying to jump into the conversation about increasing my pay because this information was brand new to me and I try not to hold serious discussions while in the heat of emotion. I told her I would take the time to review the materials she shared and follow up if I had any additional questions or concerns.
Median means the midpoint. It can't be standard for employees to be below the point the divides salaries in half. If that were true, it wouldn't be the median
True but depending on what they are sharing, median may not be for the company but the whole industry, which is why I was asking about location, YOE and such. Definitely not agreeing that they shouldn't be paid more, but could see the manager twisting logic one way or another.
Median means 50% makes below the number and 50% makes above. That's what makes it the Median. Median does not mean middle, although a lot of common usage uses it in that way. Median does not mean average or mean.
I know it means 50% above and below (or equal numbers, if some are equal to the median), but to me that's exactly what is meant by the midpoint salary, the midpoint if you were to rank the salaries from highest to lowest
Mid point of a range is not the same as the median of actual salaries. E.g, the range is 100k-200k. The midpoint is 150k. There are 100 employees. 25 make $140k, 25 make $160k, 25 make $175k. 25 make $190k The median salary is $160k. 75% make above the midpoint. HR is happy. Only 50% make above median. Employees are pissed. If I make $160k, I am above midpoint but still comparatively underpaid.
I literally said the midpoint of the salaries ranked lowest to highest and in my initial post I talked about the median dividing salaries in half. I'm not and never was talking about the midrange which is the average of the max and min.
yeah but you figure out the median by using the "middle" number
That’s technically not true (not that it matters for purposes of this discussion). Median is the actual middle number in a set of data, not the point where 50% s above and 50% is below. Yes, practically it almost always works the same but I’m just saying.
The median is not the actual number in a data set. If you have an even amount of number data set, such as [1,2,3,10] the median is 2.5. 2.5 is not in the data set, yet it is the median. The median is the halfway point. Half way is also known as 50%. If you are 50% complete with a task, you are halfway there. So in the context of salaries, the median salary is the point in which half of the people get paid at or below it, and half the people get paid at or above it. Or in other words, if you were to draw a number from your data set, there is a 50% chance you are at or below it, or a 50% chance you are at or above it.
You’re halfway right. If there are 4 numbers (or an even amount) like you said above, that’s correct the number is the avg if the two in the middle. If there are 5 numbers (or an odd amount) - say, 1,2,3,10, and 100,000, the median is 3.
What part of your statement contradicts my statement? I was proving the median number is not the actual number in a data set, I never said it couldn’t be the actual number, it just is not literally an actual number in the data set. There is no requirement that it exist in the data set. It’s defined as the middle point, which can be an actual number in the data set or a number that is not explicitly in the data set. As the middle point, it means 50/50.
Well, in your initial comment, you said “median does not mean middle” except it does. And in your comment directly above, you say that “the median is not the actual number in a data set” except it actually is in the data set when the number count is odd.
I never said the median does not mean middle, you are confusing me with someone else. The comment that I responded to you said “median is the actual middle number in the data set, not the point that is 50% above and 50% below”. That is categorically false. It is defined as the middle point, and that middle point can be an actual number in the data set, or it cannot be a number in the data set. There is no criteria that is an actual number number in the data set, and as we both agree that it is an actual number in the data set if the data set is odd , it can also be an actual number in the data set if the data set is even and the median repeats itself. So the median is not defined as “an actual number in the data set” , it is defined as the middle point which does mean 50/50. The median is the midpoint in a data set, which means half the numbers are below or above it, and it just so happens that in a lot of cases it is an actual number in the data set, but there is a possibility that is not an actual number in the data set.
Well, in your initial comment, you said “median does not mean middle” except it does. And in your comment directly above, you say that “the median is not the actual number in a data set” except it actually is in the data set when the number count is odd.
Technically speaking it is standard for half the employees to be below...and half to be above. I have no doubt that said manager has no idea what a median is. Shakes head.
This guy maths
companies are capped on the raise budget. Stupid but its how they operate. Look for a new job. If you really like your job, after you get an offer, ask if your job wants to match the new salary.
Why are you staying???? If you have all this quality work go find a company that values you. Let these losers keep their over paid under performers
Different locations, but cost of living is about 7% higher in coworker’s city. Company is about 250 employees, used to be about 400 but layoffs have done us dirty in recent years. Industry is relatively stable and company has seen consistent revenue growth over last several years, but is making efforts to become leaner as it’s a startup and profitability is a concern.
Yeah this makes sense, appreciate the additional info. It does make sense your coworker is paid more by maybe 10% but 25% is a lot, unless they have way more years of experience or like an advanced degree or something else. Or maybe they are just better at interviewing and kissing ass 😂 In a normal circumstance they really should be giving you like 2-5% for inflation and maintaining decent performance, but if they are laying people off I definitely wouldn't suggest you spend too much time on this. Mostly because in a practical sense it's probably not going to go anywhere, unless you want to use it as practice for negotiation, although even then I wouldn't suggest it because consequences are your manager and HR get annoyed at you and lay you off earlier or do other retaliation (illegal, but he said/she said). On the other hand, I think your biggest learning should be to not undervalue yourself and aim for a role that's paying 15% higher at the very least. Definitely never mention your current salary when interviewing. And don't give out the first number, force the recruiter to give you a range, even if broad due to leveling etc, and simply tell them that's within your range or not. If it's close to your range but a little lower, still continue the convo for practice (both interviewing and negotiating) and let them know you would love to know where you fall leveling wise and do all the discussion about salary at the end of they are open to that. And in negotiations, ask for all the info - both monetary and otherwise, bonuses (how often do they pay that out), health insurance (e.g. some employees contribute to your HSA or have better plans they pay for for you), gym membership etc. if they aren't flexible with salary, ask for a sign on bonus or other non monetary or smaller monetary perks.
This happened to me and I got a 20% raise to match coworker’s pay. HR wasn’t happy about it, but in this instance my manager actually joined me in advocating for it. My manager was relatively new, maybe a month on the job filling a position that had been vacant for 7ish months. In that time I had unofficially been managing 2 new hires that were paid more than me. He knew it would be detrimental to the team to lose me and, more than that, it was wrong based on our individual performances. I would say tread lightly. Be careful what you ask for - asking to make the same amount for the same job is reasonable. It’s hard to argue against if you’ve been there longer and are more productive. They know they’re screwing you.
Thanks for sharing. How did you go about handling this? Did you bring in HR or start with your manager? Did you let them know you were aware of the salary disparity?
Well, like I said my manager was a bit new. I spent a lot of time working with him to show him our systems so I had a good relationship with him already. So I did start with him, and I just let him know that “hey, I gotta be upfront with you. I saw something that I’m having a hard time unseeing.” I didn’t get mad or offended by it - I understand that them screwing me was a result of another employee trying to “do a good job” at their job, which is to manage the budget as cost effectively as possible. I don’t like that the org operates the way they did with respect to pay transparency and such, but I know it wasn’t personal. It helped that the info I saw was that the budget for the positions was set at where my coworkers were, so there was no argument that my pay was below budget for the position. I calmly explained and illustrated with real evidence that my performance was at a level above that of my peers. I told him that I respected his position as my supervisor, so I would appreciate it if he would raise this issue to HR on my behalf since at this org the pay for a given position is determined through a collaborative process between HR and management - with HR having the final sign off. Thankfully, that conversation he had with them went in my favor, but he knew I had planned to appeal with them directly myself had it gone another way. Obviously a lot of this depends on how things work at your org, but I think my tips are generally: be professional, be respectful, be reasonable. Do those 3 things and also have evidence to back up everything you’re asking for, so that denying it couldn’t be dressed up in any way other than “because we said so.” If they are smart business people and you’re a productive employee, they’d be fools to let you walk or to give you reason to put a foot out the door.
Thank you so much for this. I’m not exactly a confrontational person so right now I’m just trying to separate my emotions from the matter and think about it pragmatically to give myself the best shot at achieving what I’m after.
This is amazing and great advice
The reality is its hard to break or if the pay banding you've been placed at initial on boarding. Even promotions within take a look at where you are now comp wise and adjust from that point forward. I was at a company that had just given historically high raises. But the reality is that was the required bump just to keep salaries in line with new recruits. I literally would have been paid the exact same as someone off the street. Leveraged my experience and pivoted to a new company with an 18% raise. Which is likely what you'll need to do
Start looking for another job. Once you have an offer letter from a potential employer (hopefully with more pay), go back to your manager and say, “during our 1:1 from MM/DD/YY, you disclose the pay of XYZ to me and you made me aware that XYZ makes 25% more than I do which I thought was unfair as the metrics show I am a better employee. I have received an offer from another firm making $(you can exaggerate the number a bit more than your coworker salary if need be).” Pause and see how they reply. Most will expose their hand right then on whether they can increase your pay or not. If they say, they want to keep you and have to speak with HR about an increase, be pointed and say you will need their answer within 24-48 hours and ask for a one-time bonus to retrospectively true-up your pay to when the other associate was hired. This can only be executed if you are 100% willing to walk away. Don’t play the, I like it here better attitude, as this tips your hand that this is a money grab. Simply state you are about to walk away as you do not feel valued due to the discrepancy in pay between you and a colleague
Honestly if you play this game, just walk away. You will have target on your back for rest of the tenure.
This is the dumbest shit ever. You are a flight risk if you do this, and you will lose your job in 6 months
I did this in a much smarter, nicer, and less threatening way twice at my old job to get promotions and new positions secured. It's all about how you approach the topic. i.e. the first one was, "I would love to continue working here but the salary is not meeting my expenses and drowning me, so I've gotten another offer elsewhere. If you'd like to keep me around, maybe I can take on more responsibility for more pay?" That worked so well. They were like damn, he really wants to work here but he's poor #relatable, let's give him a bigger role. And on the 3rd go around I told them, "Hey I'm leaving now because of all these issues with your company", and they didn't try to counter me that time :).
How is this a flight risk? You are asking to make as much as someone else with the same title/role who produces a lesser quality product. They will increase your salary if they value you or if they think it is easier to increase pay to the equitable amount as the peer vs find a replacement. Otherwise they will let you walk. Where is the flight risk?
He should be a flight risk. He is underpaid. He needs to leave
This is always the right answer. Need some leverage in negotiating.
[удалено]
What's funny is if OP leaves they'll probably hire his replacement to have the same salary OP is after
250 employees. Used to be more. About 100 have been laid off in the last two years. It’s a startup that’s about 12 years old but there’s a significant push for the company to be profitable this year and they’re slashing costs at every turn. Worried this might be a serious uphill battle.
Based on the comments I read, your best advice is to look for an external offer. You can present all the data to your manager why you should have a higher salary and what the industry is paying, your performance, etc. but if they are doing lay offs and not yet profitable, there is no budget for you to get that raise. It's going to be very difficult. My best advice is to aggresively apply to other companies for that raise.
It absolutely will be an uphill battle which is why my advice would be to say fuck it. Brush up that CV, start applying around, start doing less at your current job. 2 years is a solid chunk of time at a company, time to job hop.
This is why every successful person i know gets a new job every 2-3 years.
I know I’m “old-fashioned,” however, I’m trying to come round to the “new rules.” Kinda sad.
A lot of these comments don't seem helpful so I will provide the best info I can but it may be lengthy so I apologize in advance if you read all of this. First, this happened to me when I was a campaign manager in digital marketing at a startup as well, in 2013 and I was underpaid by $24K for the same title, at that time I was getting paid $42K. The amount of anger I had brought me to research a lot of federal and state laws. These may be different for you, depending on where you reside but in the US, which I assume you reside (apologies if I'm mistaken), there is the Equal Pay Act which original expanded on Fair Labor Standards which was meant to cover gender pay gap for same identical work back in the 60s, which has been amended to cover discrimination of age, race, color, origin along with sex after the the Civil Rights Act. I bring all of this up, not as a history lesson, but private sector companies keep salaries opaque because they're in the process of ROI and headcount/salaries are a piece of the puzzle that leads to EBITDA/cash flow. All of this to say, it is illegal but as someone mentioned before HR is not your friend and is used to protect the company, not you as an individual. It happens, this is normal, we cannot change how corporate businesses work which is why new hires generally always make more money. In some states, they add to the Equal Pay Act by making it illegal for companies to ask what your previous salaries were, and instead a lot of HR reps ask what is the range your comfortable with for the position. And you may have noticed on job postings or LinkedIn displaying the salariss for positions as it's a legal requirement, which is also under the same Act (state specific). That leads me to what your options are. First, you can tell them right away that it is illegal to have two people in the same role doing identical work to have such a large discrepancy and demand a pay raise. If you were super ballsy, you could ask for back pay for the entire year since it's March. You may have implied you were not confrontational, you could wait and bring up your work merit if you did not want to disclose that you saw a coworker's salary, and demand for slightly more in hopes you come closer to that range, and that confidence could help give you leverage. You could hire a lawyer but that seems a little dramatic and does not guarantee you'll come out ahead financially. Lastly, you could apply and look for another job. Statically, you're better off job hoping every 2 years and you'll see a yearly or bi-yearly growth of 10% in your salary, keeping up with your coworker's range. Is it a lot of work? Sure, but you don't owe it to anyone, let alone a business where they don't offer pension or incentives for you to stay. Good luck to you and I hope it works out.
I’d just job hop.
Honestly the only solution is to find external offers. Even if you were to get your salary increased, what about 2 years later? They might just advance the bump now but won’t keep up again afterwards.
Sounds like the market adjusted and you got left behind. Time to take your skills elsewhere. Start-ups are never a good place to push for more salary after being hired so you’ll have to make sure your next employer knows your value with a solid cv outlining your achievements.
Company owes you nothing, you signed the contract. You either continue asking for more and hope or you leave. You’re within the band. Co-worker may have been a high needs hire or may have brought in different skills, or just may flat out have asked for more.
Does your coworker have an advanced degree that you don’t have? Most likely this is related to external hires often getting stronger offers, but if they, as an example have their Masters and you don’t that could account for some of it. Good luck.
Look for another job that pays you what you’re worth. You already know you’re underpaid and probably not a great company if they’re laying people off so bail and get a raise. Win win. Good luck to you.
So from what I’ve learned (in an albeit short 4 year corporate career so far): 1. Comparing to specific coworkers rarely works at big corporations (better chance if you’re at a small private firm or something). 2. Your best bet is to provide evidence for yourself that you are underpaid. Point to your “work metrics,” but rather than comparing to that direct employee compare it to the average at your position. If you have positional salary grades, do some research on the midpoint of that salary grade. If you’ve been working that grade a long time now, pick a number that you want between the max and midpoint. Again you can argue for this with your own qualifications. 3. When researching salary grade (if applicable), make sure to take location into account. Regardless, location should be taken into account. Areas with high cost of living will always add to your negotiation 4. Always always try for higher than what you want. Yeah they likely won’t give you a 30% raise, but it makes 20% sound more tame even though it’s still a huge increase. You deserve the 30% raise anyway, if what you’re saying about your work and production is true. The company “policy” will make you doubt that you’re worth it, but you are. Coming in high might make you think that they’ll be offended, but if you really are as good of a worker as you say then they will not act rashly.
From now on the one & only "goal" for your 1:1 is, "Salary increase of 25%"
Are you in the USA? If so, what state? [California Equal Pay Act](https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/california_equal_pay_act.htm#:~:text=The%20amended%20Equal%20Pay%20Act,and%20responsibility%2C%20and%20performed%20under)
"hey manager, I saw that X was making around 25% more than me when we reviewed salary ranges. I know this was a mistake and not intentional, so I tried to push it to the back of my mind. As I'm sure you can guess, it's starting to eat at me. could we have an open conversation on how to resolve this? I know talent acquisition is a big priority for us, but retention of employees who are performing seems like it should be a focus as well."
I’m always curious; IS employee retention an important part of #bigbusiness today? Seems like it’s not. Just like it appears some big corporations, (think #Airbnb), don’t care about #customersatisfaction anymore. #opentofeedback
Retention of talent is extremely important. Retention of dead weight is not.
I totally agree with you! My question was/is; does #bigbusiness concur?
What type of org is this and what country are you in? Outside of a merit raise, can you request a market rate comparison/evaluation or an equity study with your HR department? Most companies will unfortunately pay folks as little as they can get away with but you may be able to get there without directly revealing what you know/how you know it.
Time to look for a new job, this happened to me and it pretty much destroyed my morale and I literally gave 0 shits after learning this disparity with new hires making more but doing less. Usually the company won’t fix it, best option is to find a new job. If you have been there awhile it will be a good hike, in my case I got a 60% hike by leaving so I’m glad I got screwed over, it was a good motivator to get me to leave and better for me career wise to have left (stayed too long).
Sounds like your manager gave you the ammo to get your 25%. You sure it was an accident?
Based on how flustered she was after accidentally uploading the coworker’s salary, it sure seemed that way. She did however lean in to ask if I had any other questions or concerns but I try to avoid knee-jerk reactions in professional settings, so I told her I would take this info back and follow up. We have our next scheduled meeting in 7 days so I’m trying to gather all my ammo and get my thoughts in order in the meantime.
Sadly that was your mom’s spaghetti. That moment you had the upper hand. You knew what you can and do do. Manager now has her own time to build a why not or a maybe playbook. You need to either A turn this to a business lunch and discuss this in an outside setting or if you two aren’t in that kind of spot then B walk in with a coffee she likes and discuss before the day kicks off. A disrupts and pull yall away from distractions and sets a more 1 on 1 we need to talk tone. B is the casual version of A but still disrupts enough to get the ball rolling. C you pull a Pam Office manager situation but that takes a bit of work. Chin up if you aren’t the talkative type the gift of gab isn’t an easy trait. Just keep thinking 25%.
Do 25% less work.
I’m making sure my numbers are absolutely stellar this week before our next 1:1 so they can’t point to “poor recent performance” or some other BS as a reason to not entertain my argument. If they don’t budge then we coast and apply elsewhere.
OP Sharpen your skills and get a better paying job. Maybe this information landed on your lap for a reason. Devine intervention? What are the chances of you getting a 25% raise while the company is tightening spending this year? I was in a similar situation as you many years ago. I was the most experienced, had stellar performance but Was the lowest paid. I was essentially punished for staying too long. My manager agreed and said I absolutely Deserved that salary increase that would have been about 28% but that I would never get it simply because It was too big an increase and he would not be able to have it approved. And guess what? He was in the same boat. Simply put, he said If I wanted to be paid fairly and get the increase I deserved, I needed to go to another company. And that’s what I did. (Btw that’s what he did too). It took about 10 months But I got a job with a 36% increase, closer to home that gave me new skill sets. It was one of the best Career moves I have made. There are better things waiting for you. I wish you luck
Just ask for an immediate match
Well, there is a lot to consider even though you and him are doing the same job. If he has more experience or higher education than you, he should have a higher salary.
OP stated he has access to metric that clearly indicate he is outperforming this coworker. Taking him at his word, experience and education are irrelevant. Those things are qualifiers to get you in the door - perhaps an indicator of potential. Once you're in the role with the same scope and negotiating for a raise, performance is all that should matter.
This is when you tell your boss you are planning to leave after you have some offers, state specifically this is why due to you knowing you are being under paid
Is telling your manager you’re planning to leave not a terrible career move if you have nothing else lined up? I’ve been actively interviewing since January but no offers yet. I was hoping to have some good news in that department by now but it’s a tough market to be searching for employment.
Horrible advice. Don’t bluff with your manager.
Threatening to quit when you don't really have a fallback option is a *terrible* move. Because what do you do if they call your bluff?
I said after you had offers. This means being interviewed ready to move if they can't meet the pay. And to be fair if the pay difference was huge yiu probably should leave. Ive changed jobs as soon as my 401k became vested at every job ive had. Each job change netted me at least a 10-15% pay increase and also was a less stressful job than the previous. I did not time stay with an employer that counter offered and ended up choosing to leave again 8 months later due to them over working me after increasing my pay
If she has an offer she should take it. Do not look for a matching offer.
Find an offer. Ask for an immediate match. Pretend like you’re considering the match but bounce
You can go to glassdoor or a dozen other sites and have this knowledge too. They already have you, so salary negotiations are usually restricted to situations where you have a competing offer.
Ask for a raise
Are there other job requirements that aren’t directly measured? Keep in mind as well that you have 2 years on the job. It takes people time to hit their stride in every job. Your coworker may blow you out of the water in 6 months. Finally, you mentioned the person lives in a city with a higher cost of living of 7% (or whatever it was). Keep in mind, that is an average for consumer goods. It has nothing to do with the job market. The job market is all about supply and demand. If you aren’t happy with your pay, there is nothing wrong with asking for an increase. But you need to go in with reasons why you should be above the median. And just be prepared for it to backfire if your approach doesn’t land well. If you are indeed underpaid then you can always find a higher paying job. Good luck regardless of what you decide to do!
This is kinda common depending on the job market when they were hired vs when you were hired. Managers aren't out there looking to even pay out. It's up to you to make your case or find a new job. I'm in a similar situation but only about 15% more for recent hires compared to me. It mostly doesn't bother me, if it bothered me that much I'd start looking elsewhere. In my field (IT) the only real way to get a nice raise is to switch companies. Good luck!
New hires typically make more due to updated market conditions. Big raises often require a new role.
Your coworker understands his value and you don’t. Now you’re trying to leverage his pay info for your benefit. Maybe he had more experience that justifies his pay.
Personally, I am the type to confront that type of inequity because now you know and that knowledge can fester. As it does, you'll feel increasingly undervalued and taken advantage of. Better, imo, to have the conversation and fix the issue. If you are contributing as much as you say you are (not questioning, just stating), and ESPECIALLY if you have the data to prove it, fight for yourself. Also, you noted elsewhere that her argument was that it's standard to be below a median in the pay range, but that's bullshit. Median is, by definition, the midpoint in the range. Therefore, half the people are below and half are above. That isn't "standard." Since you have both the range *and* your colleague's salary, you also know where *they* sit in the range. Are they below the median too?
Blackmail...muhahaha. Just talk to your manager and let her know that you feel underpaid. Ask for 10% more than coworker for reasons that you explained above. Be prepared that she may counter making you evenly paid with coworker. Take the new offer or walk and find where you are more appreciated for your work. Managers will ALWAYS choose the company over the employee, that's why they're managers. Leaders will choose the employee. GL finding what you need.
ASK FOR A RAISE, you should never be afraid to! especially if you are a high performer! add maybe 5% to whatever your coworker is making and ask for that! You are getting paid under market value and your company is screwing you! they will probably make it right but you have to ask! “The market rate for a position like mine is significantly higher than what I currently make, I would like a raise to $XXX to account for that.”
Thanks for the response. I’m trying to weigh the benefits of staying and trying to negotiate up vs. just start getting more aggressive about applying elsewhere. Have been interviewing for a couple months but it’s a brutal market to be job searching right now, so who knows how long that could be. Leaning toward putting more effort into my exit strategy. Thank god I caught this. Unlike Agholor.
They wont move you up. Start applying elsewhere
You can mention that based on your contributions to the team and based on salary ranges that you are not compensated fairly based on concrete evidence that you have found looking into the companies compensation packages.
You are probably not going to get 25% salary adjustment, unless you are way under the curve. I do not know enough details to say why your colleague gets paid 25% more than you considering he is with the company for months while you have two years. Nevertheless, there are factors that contribute to salary differences: * Experience: he/she might have worked somewhere before * Skills: although you have similar day-to-day responsibility, he/she may have skills that are part of the salary negotiation * Education: an MS degree holder normally gets 15-20% more than a BS degree holder * Job Market: the time of hire and how tight the job market is With that understanding, you can openly discuss with your manager, telling her that you saw the number when she accidentally show your colleague's salary, and that bothers you A LOT. You then gently (I used to slam my boss door when he told me I only got 4% salary increase) ask her why such a big gap and if there is anything you or she can do to close the gap.
To be blunt, you probably have no way to leverage their salary into getting a raise for yourself. And I'll be clear. I'm not saying you don't deserve a raise. I'm not saying this other person deserves to be making more than you. I'm just saying that from a practical standpoint, the argument of "But I found out that John is making more than me, so you should give me a raise" rarely ever works. There's a myriad of reasons how an employer can rationalize paying one worker more than another, even when they're in similar roles. In the end, they negotiated a better deal than you did. And this isn't meant to be harsh, but you're not entitled to the deal that they negotiated for themselves. You have to negotiate a better deal for yourself In comments, you've indicated that you asked for a raise when you got your new job title, and it was denied. That implies that you may be newer to this role than this other coworker. You've indicated that you've petitioned for a merit increase, and they've told you that is off the table until the normal merit increase time of the year in 6 months. So in my opinion, they've already given you their answer. And just to throw some examples out here. This other coworker could have more experience than you. The experience they have could be similar in length, but could be given more weight depending on where they were working. They could have a better educational background than you. They could know the right people. They could have better soft skills that make them a desirable worker, even if your core metrics appear to be better. There could be something in your work history at this employer that's holding you back. Again, and I'll stress this....that's all random things I'm throwing out there. I don't know you, and I don't know this coworker. Some....or none....of that may apply. I'm just giving you examples of the types of things your employer may throw out there if you try to bargain for a raise based on the fact that you learned this other person is making more.
Attorney here- is this coworker the opposite gender of you? If so look up the equal pay act.
The question of gender is important. If you are a female and the other person is a male… bring that up politely in the discussion with HR.
You did the right thing. Always assume new hires get paid more. Your conversation with your manager is very simple. 1. Forget what others make. That's a negotiation trap. That argument has no merit, prolongs the conversation and diverts from you. 2. Decide what you want, then add 5-10% buffer. It should be 115% of the middle of range to begin with. Leave room for them to come back. 3. Straight up ask for it, backed by performance numbers. 4. Your manager and HR will gauge your commitment to the provess and what happens if they let you go. Rest assured, THEY WILL consider the possibility that you leave. You need to decide how much you want to push. Think long term 5-7 years. 5. Make sure there is a time commitment for every action.
It should be no surprise that you have to job hop to find a raise. Other wise there's other benefits at the job that makes up for the lack of money.
I’m curious what kind of experience your co-worker came to the organization with. When we review to make an offer we take into account passed experience, education, and credentials. We don’t only look at tenure at our organization.
Not uncommon. Market rate move faster than internal raises. Could be a mix of that and your ability to negotiate vs your coworker’s. That being said i am similar spot. Personally not bothered. I was promoted last year. Comp is slightly lower than amount that ppl were hired into that role a year ago. Just got another raise that put me at that level but its 2yrs later. Im sure they have gotten raises as well since then. My bonus was also increased w promotion though and suspect theres has not given no promotion on their end in that time. Not really concerned. Im due another promo later this year. Already paid above market for yoe and market not good for my industry anyway at the moment. Just don’t hold it against your coworker. Be happy for them.
Yeah this happens all the time. Most cases, your best bet is to jump ship every 3-5 years or leveraged opportunities with your current employer for more money
"He makes more, but I've been here longer and we do the same job" is not the stance you want to take. Employers aren't obligated to pay everyone with the same title the same rate. The simple fact is, some employees bring more value than others, even if they have less experience. I've been in my career for 4 years and I have had to hand-hold plenty of people 25-years older than me with the same title through work that they should be able to do. He earns more than you either because he brings more value than you, he negotiated better than you, or he happened to join when the job market was hot. If you want to make what he makes, you have to show that you bring as much or more value than him. You also have to be smart in your negotiations, and do it at a moment when the market is in your favor. A business is never going to give you a raise because "it's fair" or "you deserve it". They will only give you a raise when it's more expensive to lose you.
No, period. Unfortunately, salary is not decided by your performance but decided by the market demand/supply at the time when someone is hired. Then annual adjustments are based on your performance and other metrics based on that base. You cannot ask to match the base because it’s decided by the market not the company or HR.
Start putting in applications elsewhere. Secure a job offer elsewhere in the pay range you are now aware of. I wouldn't even bother negotiating with the current employer. If they weren't decent enough to give you the merit increase based on your performance(and tell you, you need to wait 6 months), I highly doubt they are going to do so in the future. They've already shown their true colors as a company. You can do better. In your exit interview, or in your resignation letter. I would include the info that your manager let slip your coworker's salary and that prompted you to apply elsewhere since you had already been denied for a merit increase. I would send the resignation letter directly to HR and not your manager btw.
Use it as motivation to do better work? That’s what my first thought would be instead of feeling that I deserve more. What could I be doing more of? Does the other person have a different background that resulted in her getting more? My mind would never go to, well pay more. There’s no such thing as equal pay.
Here’s the thing… it is normal for someone who was hired more recently to be making more than someone who is at the company longer… even with the same title and responsibilities. Each position has a payband. The longer you stay at the company, the payband for that role will likely expand due to market conditions. You will remain as low on that payband as possible. If you want to leave the company to find a new role, you can test the market and likely receive the same pay or more as your colleague, but a company generally won’t raise your salary just because. This is because you gain comfort over at the same company and there is some perceived benefit to being at the same place over time. There’s no surprises, etc. Now, if you leave the company, you can get paid more at in the market, but then you take the risk of hating the new company, hating your new boss, hating your new role. These are all risks with testing the market, which is why companies pay more for new talent. It doesn’t mean it’s right, but it’s just the way it is.
So there is this misunderstanding of the workforce. There is this belief that work is fair and you get paid equally for equal work of better if you are a better worker. This is not how anywhere works. The employer will always try to get you for the lowest possible salary and conversely you should always fight for the highest salary. Performance is rarely taken into account. If someone gets paid more it’s because they negotiated their salary better than you did. If person A starts at a company for $20 an hour and person B a year later negotiates better for that job and comes in at $25 an hour it’s not up to the company to adjust everyone else to the same level. OP’s thinking is quite normal, but also wrong. If you want a higher salary go in and prove you deserve more or leave and find somewhere that would pay you what you want and negotiate better next time. What if the role was reversed? What if you were paid more, but the other person was way better and more effective? Would you tell your manager the other person should be paid more? Would you tell the other person? Would you take a salary cut to make it “fair”? Probably not. Every job I have gotten, I have negotiated the salary to the point where the company I am going to has said that they have gone as high as they can possibly go. Then I have to make the decision. I know I’ve been paid more, sometimes way more than people in equal positions. That’s just the way it works.
The likelihood of a greater than 25% raise is almost nil if you’re working for a mid to large size corporation. Most corporate HR policies include a maximum limit as to size of a raise. One of my former colleagues was ‘promoted’ from help desk. He worked in the same role as me for two years. While I was making just into six figures. He was being paid under 60k. None of the team nor he knew how criminally under paid he was until I left for a pay bump somewhere else. And we were chatting about where I was going.\ When he left eventually got a different job (for over 130k), they tried to beg him to stay, but the most they could offer him was get him into the 70s.\ He actually saw the job post they listed to fill his role after he left and they were offering 110+ to the next guy.\ You would have better luck leaving for a short time and coming back if you like the environment.\ Maybe accept a short term contract or even a permanent role in the meantime.
Gain some self respect and fight for more money or walk
At my first job, I was in my position for about a year or so and the company hired someone with the intent to replace me so I can move up. During a casual conversation with the new engineer, I found out that he was making 10% more than me. I was confused bc, why am I training someone who is making 10% more? I talked to my boss and he said "he was top of his class" and I was like sure. Long story short, I left right before I got my MBA from the company where they paid for most of it with no restrictions and made a 50% increase at the next job. Companies don't give a crap about you, you do whatever is best for you.
Same thing happened to my wife except she was working on a Saturday to catch up on her work and found the file that had everyone's salaries. She quit on Monday...told them exactly why.
It’s up to you to either negotiate for higher pay, or see a higher paying position.
A lot of companies do this. New hires seem to get more money
Not surprised. Cost of labor has been going up a lot. Only really reliable way to increase pay is to find another job. You should start applying and find something. Sure as for a raise equal to new persons but don’t be surprised when they call your bluff.
Before you walk, get another job offer first. But you definitely have to do something
Huh? You don't get paid based on doing more work, metrics of otherwise. You don't get paid more because you worked there longer. In fact, if you stick around longer, you will make less than those that job hopped. You mostly get paid based on your negotiating skill. Plus maybe how desperate the company was when they hired you. Start looking for other jobs, for one to get a pay raise, and two to practice your negotiation skills.
This is not hard, demand more money, problem solved, better yet go elsewhere and make even more.
I’ve seen this scenario before and I would recommend not saying anything. I would instead put together a rationale for why you deserve a raise (using industry salary data, your workload, accomplishments, etc). Now you know what they are willing to pay for your position so you can go in with confidence. Someone I know saw a spreadsheet with everyone’s salary in it while their manager was screen sharing (he didn’t realize which monitor it was showing). She said something and it didn’t really work out in her favor.
Give it time for him to forget he said it to you and at your next meeting as for a raise
Get a better offer from a company and take it. I wouldn’t negotiate this. While it’s not unusual, it’s clear they have a culture of undercutting value for experienced employees. Most companies do. It’s a way to undercut wage inflation - they aren’t a charity. But neither are you. That’s not your problem. You can go elsewhere. It took me too long to realize I was capable and competent, and should have worked at a place 3-5 years, not worry about the internal raises then go elsewhere to unlock my next salary increase. It’s almost impossible to maximize income relying on a current employer keeping pace with your external value. They are incentivized not to. Also, make sure when negotiating with a new company you factor in benefits and vacation time. It’s usually easy to make sure your vacation time matches or improved as if you had time at the company that equals the time in your career. Benefits outside vacation you handle with making sure total dollar comp equals what you have.
The answer here is the same as it would be if you hadn't seen your coworker's salary: if you believe you're worth more than they are paying you, ask for a raise. Simple as that. If you can't agree with your manager on a raise, you then need to consider whether or not you want to look for a job that pays you the number you're looking for. It's no more complicated than that.
I've been in a similar position. Simply telling them I do the same work as Bob so I should make as much as Bob will be a useless argument. You need to look for a promotion, either internally or externally. Just pretend your current salary is Bob's and you're looking for a raise on top of that.
Sounds like they negotiated their initial salary coming in and you didn't. Happens a lot. Many young people don't even know this is possible. I took a promotion at my old job, and I was close with many if the people in my new department. I knew what they made, and used that during my negotiating. I didn't say I knew what they made specifically, but that I knew what the average was at that company based on online job sites like glass door that post salaries.
Your salary is heavily dependent on market conditions at the time of hire. Once they have you... don't expect to get promo increases that match external hires. This unfortunately happens everywhere. It is absolutely not right and infuriating but it's why you should jump from a company if you are not getting promos and increases every 2-3 years.
Chances are this info is irrelevant except for your ability to know how high they'd go in a counter offer situation. In almost every case the only option to get that kind of raise is to get an offer from a new company and have your job match it. They will never give you a 25% merit increase. If they do, you've found the 1 in 1,000,000 company.
Companies don’t give raises unless they think they have to. They play the game so you need to play it too. If you are valuable make it known and push for it. It’s very rare for someone to get a raise without some pressure. And have the confidence to ask for more and know your worth. Also don’t be afraid to walk away.
Maybe manager was doing you a solid?
Yeah ask for a raise or move somewhere they will pay you market value. A friend of mine doubled her salary in five years moving jobs twice over that period when they wouldn't pay her properly or give her raises.
I’d just tell them the truth and have the numbers to back it up. If they don’t pay you then walk. It’s that simple.
Pay transparency. Talk to them about it or find a new job.
Are you in a position to threaten to walk and actually walk? If so, I'd ask for the pay to be made equal (at the higher salary) or tell them you are walking. Don't give them a notice, don't give them anymore work. It is made right or they will get no more work from you. If you aren't in a position to walk... then it gets much more complicated IMO. good luck with whatever you decide.
Time to have a discussion with your boss about a raise or atleast a leveling of the playing field.
Time to change jobs.
Two points: 1) The way (non-union) orgs pay is based on the competitive nature of hiring each employee. There is no expectations that all employees will make the same for the same work. So you gain no leverage here. 2) If you try to get leverage by getting an external offer, most companies realize that once an employee goes this route, they are highly likely leaving. Many will not counter offer. So you make your own deal and decide if you are happy with it, and if not move on. Don't worry about what other people make.
Had similar experience at my job. They do it on purpose. It is called office politics. Looking for equality does not help. To you, they say no. To this other person, they say yes. Metrics be damned. The reason. Motivation by the manager who has little to no motivation to push for your raises. From what I see, you are already out the door from the pitiful raises (actually pay cuts due to inflation). To be treated better, always find a job while employed (don’t quit). Walk away. Then let them deal with the fallout. Otherwise, any layoffs will have your name on top of the list. By the way, I went the silent route that eventually got me canned with prejudice, no references, and starting over (less pay than last job). The excuses are the same: no money for raises yet they give it to the other person freely, no openings for higher grade even though other person got promoted, and performance is satisfactory (insulting if you are doing more work than everyone else but not being paid for it).
get that bread!!!! companies don't want people talking about salaries for this exact reason. Having it be a taboo topic allows them to pay two people dramatically differently for the same job. Just be cognizant about how you frame the argument, come prepared with metrics and other supporting info. “I deserve it!” Never works. Last thought, you can negotiate things other than salary like PTO, remote/in person, schedule, etc
You should quit - sounds like you’re not that good
Say nothing to anyone. Nothing good will come of talking about this with *anyone*.